The Confederate Flag

[BrandNew20]

Today at work I saw a bumper-sticker that had a picture of the confederate flag on one half, and on the other half read-"This Flag is only a representation of hate because of YOUR ignorance." This got me to thinking, and I can't understand at all how that statement could be true. Yes, I know that the Civil War was fought over the issue of state's rights, not just slavery-but when you really got to the core of the issue, it seems like slavery was the major issue that the southern states wanted to be allowed to have...anyone have any thoughts on this?

[vikingstrike182]

In the South it is seen as a symbol of pride to many. I dont have a problem with it, but others, however, do.

[instantkarma101]

What they are saying is that the confederate flag shows pride in their southerness. They had this whole big thing at Harvard once where some kid hung a confederate flag out his window and people got really pissed, and this other kid hung up a swastika to protest and it was just a big mess.... basically in the end they were both brought in and made to understand why their flags were hurting others and the result was them taking it down. I live in the South myself though I am a highly claimed northerner, and I personally think their are better ways to show your pride than to hang a flag that hurts some people who see it. And yes it does hurt some people who see it because I have gotten in this conversation with a lot of my friends and they are all upset when they see it. Southerners are saying that northerners are ignorant about it because they don't mean it in a racist way, but it still hurts because the flag represents an economy that was based on slavery and Southerners are too ignorant too see that. So, in the end, each person is just gonna sit there plugging their ears and screaming "i'm not listening!!!"

[Sinister Rouge]

The confederate flag wavers are ignorant because these rebels 140 years ago had slavery and hate in their agenda, they were not really for freedom. The KKK also used the flag frequently....usually the people waving the flag are not really educated and value "culture" over truth.

[vikingstrike182]

I dont have a problem with it and I am not ignorant. It all comes down to slaverya nd racism which is still very touchy in this country.

[venus/bacchus]

It's hard to say that anyone is truly ignorant. That phrase gets thrown around a lot these days (and I know I'm guilty of the same thing) for no good reason. Now, I will agree that a lot of people who wave the flag are ignorant as to the complete history of the Confederacy and just scream "woo hoo, the South rules!", but there are some who see it as a symbol of standing up for your beliefs in the face of adversity. It's very easy to look back on history and say "they were wrong"...but it's nearly impossible to put yourself in the mindset of the time. I'll almost guarantee that in 150 years someone pinpoints our era and says "they were so ignorant to so many different things." Cultures change, attitudes change, no one is right. Another thing though...for many people the Confederate flag truly does stand for being a southerner, if you can't understand that, it's your own problem, not theirs. I have countless relatives from TN, AR, GA and other places scattered around the south and they to this day wish the South won the war. Are they racist, not in the slightest.

that was a pretty bizarre rant with no real focus, if anyone just read that, good luck deciphering it

[worldstheory]

All the kids around here with Confederate flags just doing it to perpetuate their badass "hick" image. It's ridiculous... we are on the OPPOSITE side of the country from the South. I bet these kids have never even VISITED the South!

Talk about poseurXcore.

[Justin_stacy]

The confederate flag wavers are ignorant because these rebels 140 years ago had slavery and hate in their agenda, they were not really for freedom. The KKK also used the flag frequently.....

Being quite ignorant yourself there, aren't you...just because one group uses the flag for a "purpose," doesn't mean all groups use it for that same "purpose".….you can not, in an "educated" mind, hold everyone waving the flag accountable for what one group uses it for....I can't imagine someone with your, political, beliefs believing in the principle of "guilty by association"....


usually the people waving the flag are not really educated and value "culture" over truth.

"truth," as in your interpretation of what someone should believe?

[Justin_stacy]

I have countless relatives from TN, AR, GA and other places scattered around the south and they to this day wish the South won the war. Are they racist, not in the slightest.

politically speaking, the beliefs of your relatives don't just live in the south...

[birdman]

I live in GA, and I could care less about the flag. Some of you may recall that a few years back we changed our flag so that the confederate symbol was not on it. It was a big controversy. But I always say "its a fucking piece of fabric, relax!" And that applies to both sides. If you are offended by a stupid piece of fabric then you have problems. Then again, if you are so in love with this stupid piece of fabric that you wont bother changing it then you have problems too. I am Jewish, and when I see a swastika, I dont get offended. I just think "wow there is a stupid piece of fabric with a little symbol thingy on it."

People in this country need to relax and stop getting offended. People are so uptight about things like flags and religous symbols that they stop caring about shit that actually matters. They devote their lives to destroying what they feel is offensive (im looking at you ACLU), since when was offending someone a crime?

Here comes the politics

Seriously, a lot of you liberals talk about Bush violating your freedom of speech and shit. Yet when a kid has a flag hanging from his dorm that may "offend" someone, you get all frantic and demand it gets taken down. Who decides whats offensive? And should it be illegal to "offend"someone? Does a skinhead have no right to wear a swastika on his shirt to school? What about HIS freedom of speech? If thats the case, should any of us be allowed to wear a shirt of a band we like, or political affiliation, or a fucking Hurley shirt. Hell im Jewish and I dont give a fuck if someone wants to be a skinhead, just as long as they arent killing jews.

Just think, pretty soon its going to be offensive to be white or christian.

[open mind]

i think the confederate flag is a stupid thing to put up, it was created because one part of the country wanted to continue the cycle of slavery, abuse, violence, and degradation of some people so bad they broke off from the union to fight for it, to many it's a cymbal of unequality, brutality, racism, and slavery, to me it's not much different then putting up a big swastika because your proud of being from germany.
basically i think it's a stupid thing to be proud of, but it's your right to be proud of it if you want, so go ahead and display what you want, just remember it's everyone else's right to give you shit for it if you do.

[worldstheory]

Just think, pretty soon its going to be offensive to be white or christian.It already is.

[hXc_pwnage]

I stopped caring.

It's stupid to be offended by a piece of cloth, as someone else said I believe. If someone still believes in racism and inequality and uses the flag as a background, that is when I am against it. But I could care less about a flag.

Stupid flags.

[ohlookitspaul]

well, along with a few other people who have posted in this thread, i live(d) in georgia. honestly, i've gotten used to it. it's stupid, it's a symbol of hate, it's a symbol of oppression, but really...whatever. people are going to be "proud" of it and display and it and whatever no matter what. what are we going to do, outlaw it? i agree with the changing of the georgia flag although i personally wouldn't have raised such a big hullabaloo about it.

[Bikeage]

i think the confederate flag is a stupid thing to put up, it was created because one part of the country wanted to continue the cycle of slavery, abuse, violence, and degradation of some people so bad they broke off from the union to fight for it, to many it's a cymbal of unequality, brutality, racism, and slavery, to me it's not much different then putting up a big swastika because your proud of being from germany.
basically i think it's a stupid thing to be proud of, but it's your right to be proud of it if you want, so go ahead and display what you want, just remember it's everyone else's right to give you shit for it if you do.

agreed... i dont think its different than hanging a swatstika flag. and birdman wow to your post

[birdman]

agreed... i dont think its different than hanging a swatstika flag. and birdman wow to your post

is that a good wow or a bad wow.

[sweetsugar]

The "rebel flag" that everyone so often fly's was a confederate naval flag, and I think there was like one other gruop that flew it. So it was only flown like 2 times during the whole fucking war. So all those crybabies that say it represents racism need to learn some history. Alot of the northern states supported slavery and were just as brutal and racist as the south. There is nothing wrong with the "rebel flag" it just gets misrepresented by the wrong group. I don't think the Georgia flag should have been changed, it's been that way for years. I mean, if a bunch of rednecks started carrying around the american flag and using it as a rascist symbol would we then have to change it because of what it stands for? That's pretty much what happened with the "rebel flag" and the Georgia flag. There was nothing racial about it, it was just a flag and a small minority gave it the wrong meaning and then everyone commenced their bitching and griping.

Down with minorities!

[hXc_pwnage]

Fuck the majorities.

[sweetsugar]

Oh well, I give it 10 years and us caucasians will be minorities, then all those other "ethnicities" will feel that wrath that they have wrought on us, each company will have to hire a certain number of white workers. I guess we can't call it affirmative blacktion once that happens though. All of there plans are going to back fire on them. I can't think of anything clever with the word white or caucasian though.

[hXc_pwnage]

If white become the miniority, I think all of us ( white people ) can say we are 100% fucked.

Yeah.

[ohlookitspaul]

whites may statistically become the minority one day, but the overwhelming majority of the upper class, businessmen, etc. will still be white. and the proportion of those in jail and such will still be disproportionately skewed toward minorities (or, well, what we call minorities now).

whites becoming a minority will change little.

[VinnyVegas]

White people may eventually become a numerical minority, but the power structure of the nation will most likely be controlled by white men. That’s how I see the whole thing unraveling in the future.

[ohlookitspaul]

White people may eventually become a numerical minority, but the power structure of the nation will most likely be controlled by white men. That’s how I see the whole thing unraveling in the future.
yeah, that's what i was trying tos ay except i couldn't think of the phrase "power structure of the nation", haha

[hXc_pwnage]

Haha.

Oh well. I think it would be cool if whites became a full minority.

After I die, of course.

[ohlookitspaul]

maybe someday asians will become the majority. we will rule the fucking world.

damn me for being whitewashed. i'm screwed. i need to go buy a civic now.

[hXc_pwnage]

You guys already own like half the fucking planet.

Or you could. If you didn't stay in like...two places.

[Justin_stacy]

. we will rule the fucking world..
china has an idea towards accomplishing your wish...although i don't know if thats something to get so excited about....

[ohlookitspaul]

china has an idea towards accomplishing your wish...although i don't know if thats something to get so excited about....
meh

i'm not really asian anyways, haha

[Justin_stacy]

meh

i'm not really asian anyways, haha

i was just tryin' to be funny...nothing personal...

[Justin_stacy]

The "rebel flag" that everyone so often fly's was a confederate naval flag, and I think there was like one other gruop that flew it. So it was only flown like 2 times during the whole fucking war. !

The other "group" was the army of tennessee, which flow the flag following the summer of 63'....but most armies (i.e. states) marched under the flag, or a very similar one, at least once durring the war...

[13th hour]

I used to live in south carolina, and for me, being a young kid from the north, I didnt understand why people would be proud of a sybol that I thought at the time represented hate. But things change. When I first moved to Omaha, I considered getting the stars and bars and hanging it in my basement, not because Im racist and not because I have southern heritage, but because 1)history intrigues me, and 2) Im proud that I lived in the south, I met alot of awesome people, and I generally fell in love with the place, Charleston SC especially. I look at it this way, the south was where I grew up, and it helped shape me into who I am today. Ultimately, I decided not to get the flag because to some people, it does represent racism and hate, and I should respect that it would make others uncomfortable. So, I see how some people would think that when notherners think it represents hate it would be ignorance, but.... those same people should think about others, especially in the south, with a large amount of black people, a bumper sticker on your car could be offensive to alot of the people that you see.

[birdman]

I used to live in south carolina, and for me, being a young kid from the north, I didnt understand why people would be proud of a sybol that I thought at the time represented hate. But things change. When I first moved to Omaha, I considered getting the stars and bars and hanging it in my basement, not because Im racist and not because I have southern heritage, but because 1)history intrigues me, and 2) Im proud that I lived in the south, I met alot of awesome people, and I generally fell in love with the place, Charleston SC especially. I look at it this way, the south was where I grew up, and it helped shape me into who I am today. Ultimately, I decided not to get the flag because to some people, it does represent racism and hate, and I should respect that it would make others uncomfortable. So, I see how some people would think that when notherners think it represents hate it would be ignorance, but.... those same people should think about others, especially in the south, with a large amount of black people, a bumper sticker on your car could be offensive to alot of the people that you see.

But thats the whole problem with the world today. Everyone is walking on eggshells and not saying what they really feel because they dont want to offend anyone, even if what they are saying is not meant to be offensive. If you are proud to be from the south and want to express that by displaying the flag, you should be able to without being labeled a racist or a bigot. Don't you agree? Sure it may offend some people, but it offends them because THEY LET IT OFFEND THEM, not because you are intetionally trying to offend them. There is a big difference between the two.

Seriously, I am about to say something that isnt meant to be offensive, but it will most definetly offend a lot of you. A lot of black people today are HOLDING ON to racism because its the only issue they feel they have control of. Thats why every issue in which a black person is invloved is automatically turned into a race issue (o.j. simpson, rodney king, the confederate flag etc...). People think fighting a war on terrorism is stupid...I think fighting a war on racism is 10 times as stupid because racism is a thought, terrorism is an act. You cant change the way people think, its impossible. I have lived in the south my whole life and racism isnt as rampant an issue as a lot of black leaders would have you believe. I have a bunch of black friends and they always tell me that they feel more comfortable in the south than anywhere else in the country because there is a huge black culture there. But the media and others would have you believe that the south is full of gun-toting rednecks looking for another darky to lynch. It just isnt true.

[13th hour]

But thats the whole problem with the world today. Everyone is walking on eggshells and not saying what they really feel because they dont want to offend anyone, even if what they are saying is not meant to be offensive. If you are proud to be from the south and want to express that by displaying the flag, you should be able to without being labeled a racist or a bigot. Don't you agree? Sure it may offend some people, but it offends them because THEY LET IT OFFEND THEM, not because you are intetionally trying to offend them. There is a big difference between the two.

Seriously, I am about to say something that isnt meant to be offensive, but it will most definetly offend a lot of you. A lot of black people today are HOLDING ON to racism because its the only issue they feel they have control of. Thats why every issue in which a black person is invloved is automatically turned into a race issue (o.j. simpson, rodney king, the confederate flag etc...).


Youre right, I should have been able to hang that flag up, but thats in an ideal world that we dont live in. For example, if I had put the flag where I wanted to, it would be in the same room as my band practices in. We have alot of different people come and watch us practice, alot of people in other bands around here, and if it got out that we practiced under a rebel flag... wed never be asked to play a show ever again. Youre right, but the world isnt that simple.

But as for your opinions on blacks holding onto racism... I agree. There is some, but its not near as prevalent as its made out to be.

[sweetsugar]

But thats the whole problem with the world today. Everyone is walking on eggshells and not saying what they really feel because they dont want to offend anyone, even if what they are saying is not meant to be offensive. If you are proud to be from the south and want to express that by displaying the flag, you should be able to without being labeled a racist or a bigot. Don't you agree? Sure it may offend some people, but it offends them because THEY LET IT OFFEND THEM, not because you are intetionally trying to offend them. There is a big difference between the two.

Seriously, I am about to say something that isnt meant to be offensive, but it will most definetly offend a lot of you. A lot of black people today are HOLDING ON to racism because its the only issue they feel they have control of. Thats why every issue in which a black person is invloved is automatically turned into a race issue (o.j. simpson, rodney king, the confederate flag etc...). People think fighting a war on terrorism is stupid...I think fighting a war on racism is 10 times as stupid because racism is a thought, terrorism is an act. You cant change the way people think, its impossible. I have lived in the south my whole life and racism isnt as rampant an issue as a lot of black leaders would have you believe. I have a bunch of black friends and they always tell me that they feel more comfortable in the south than anywhere else in the country because there is a huge black culture there. But the media and others would have you believe that the south is full of gun-toting rednecks looking for another darky to lynch. It just isnt true.

Your so right about the racism deal. It just gets outta hand sometimes. I had some friends that got in trouble....and they said it was because they were black. When really, that had nothing to do with it, it was because another black guy ratted them out.

[nards228]

I attend Washington & Lee University in Lexington, Virginia, and I would estimate that about 10% of the student body displays a Confederate flag somehow (on a wall, out a window, on a car, et cetera). Being a Californian by birth and an Oregonian by upbringing, I was shocked to see all these flags everywhere because I'd been indoctrinated into the whole "symbol of racism and hatred" belief.

My Southern friends taught me to be more open-minded. The argument that the South ceded prior to the Civil War simply because of slavery is faulty logic. It was more complicated than that. Abolishing slavery would have ruined the livelihood of nearly everybody in the South. Others, like Lee, who was a Union soldier, refused to take arms aganist family members and friends, and supported a state's right to cede a Union that wasn't representing its people.

Some who fly the Confederate flag do so because they believe that blacks aren't as good as whites. Others who do it do so because it has become a general symbol of Southern pride and tradition. The swastika was originally a Bhuddist symbol representing resignation (you can see the symbol on the soles of his feet, his hands, his chest). The Nazis turned this symbol into something largely regarded as a symbol of hatred today.

In other words: it's all a matter of perspective. Were I black, I probably wouldn't be as comfortable around Confederate flags. Were I Southern, I'd probably be a big defender of alterior meanings. As a Westerner, I'm simply an observer. It's a complicated issue, and there are no easy solutions.



Rennard

[Sinister Rouge]

Bill Maher was on Larry King Live tonight and I love what he said about the south, being a southerner (Texan) I find this true....

CALLER: How do we get southern voters voting Democrat again? Thank you, Bill. Thank you, Larry.

KING: Will the South ever vote Democratic?

MAHER: You know, that's a sore point with me, the south. The way that they have the stranglehold over the electorate. Because, excuse me, and I love playing to red states, because when I play the red states my stand-up act I get all the people 40 don't usually have someone like me come to their state. So there's a great bonding.

And I feel for them, because there's a lot of smart people in the south. But in general, it is the dumbest part of the country. Excuse me. It is. And also, they're the super patriots. The one part of the country that ever actually seceded. The one part of the country that ever actually committed treason. And they seem to lead in how we are supposed to think. Because they're more religious, they're more patriotic and I think it's just a disservice to our...

KING: You think in modern-day America you could still claim a whole region is dumber than another region?

MAHER: They lead the region in dumbness, yes, they do. Because there's just too many people who think that every problem can be solved by either more guns or more Jesus. And like I said, I'm with the people who are following the compass. Not the people who are reading the entrails of the chicken. They're the people who are reading the entrails of the chicken.

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about the chicken and the compass...

CALLER: Yes, do you think President Bush is sincere in supporting Ariel Sharon's position, the government with denying the Palestinians right of return or do you think this is just a ploy to get the Jewish vote? MAHER: I think this is all -- this has everything to do with the fact that George Bush is a born-again Christian. OK, and this is why religion is so dangerous in our society. Because George Bush is not just a Christian. He's a born-again, they believe Jesus is coming back any day now. And they want everything to be perfect for him. They call it the rapture, right?

KING: Why is that bad?

MAHER: Well, Thomas Jefferson said the book of revelations was the ravings of a lunatic. George Bush organizes his foreign policy around it. That's why it's bad. Because his decisions about Israel are affected by his religious beliefs.

KING: You mean that Christ is coming back Israel.

MAHER: Jesus is coming back, and he's not coming back to Toledo, Larry, he's coming back to his home, which is Jerusalem, which has to be in Jewish hands because the Jews have a very important role to play when Jesus comes back, which is, of course, to be dead. Because there can't be any Jews around.

KING: That's right, yes.

MAHER: I mean, this is scary stuff. Because it's completely irrational. It's like half this country wants to guide our ship of state by a compass. A compass, something that works by science and rationality, and imperial wisdom. And half this country wants to kill a chicken and read the entrails like they used to do in the old Roman Empire. And I'm with the compass people.

[venus/bacchus]

What????? Jesus isn't coming to Toledo? What the hell am I still here for then??

Seriously though, Maher doesn't know the first thing about the Book of Revelations or about Bush's intentions in Israel. Also, what's liberal isn't always what's best for the country. That's what we should care about long before we care if it's "advancing thought" or anything.

Talk about the ravings of a lunatic...

[13th hour]

I dont get you man, youre so.... fuck, I dont even know. But I agree that the book of revelations is bullshit, and if you think that that stuff is really going to happen, youll have to wait for a movie, cause its not happening in real life.

[13th hour]

Also, what's liberal isn't always what's best for the country.



Hey, remember back when, about 40 years ago when desegregation was considered liberal thought? Mahr is right, you conservative christians have such a stranglehold on this country youd go to war to prevent anything that didnt agree with Jesus.

[venus/bacchus]

Hey, remember back when, about 40 years ago when desegregation was considered liberal thought? Mahr is right, you conservative christians have such a stranglehold on this country youd go to war to prevent anything that didnt agree with Jesus.
That doesn't matter if it's liberal thought or not. It was what was good for society as a whole. If you are claiming that I'm a conservative Christian...I'll say, I'm conservative, and Christian, but I'm nowhere near a conservative christian.

And wow, you sure have us all pegged. I'd love to go to war to kill any heathens...

[13th hour]

Mahr is exactly right though, for the most part, the south thinks they can solve all the worlds problems with either more guns or more Jesus. Its the middle of the bible belt, cmon on, its the most conservative place in the country.

[instantkarma101]

First of all, 13th hour, you generalize too damn much.

Venus/Baccus: What's conservative isn't what's best for the country either.

Birdman: Let's put like this. You put up a rebel flag and I am offended. (this is just an example) Now we have a problem with each other because you think i'm "ignorant" and I think you are "racist", where-as if you never put the flag in my sight, there would be no problem. So if you want to show you pride, put it in your room or something where you can show your pride to yourself. But the people who are going to be offended are worth noting. So here are your options a) do what you want regardless of if you are hurting people or b) recognize that it could hurt someone and be courteous.

and lastly, for the word ignorant: your world is what you make it to be, so in my opinion, ignorance is ignorant. Everyone's opinion isn't going to be the same so calling someone uninformed because there opinion is different is, in the words of the brits, "rather silly." Why is it that the good guys always win the war? The one's who write the history books make themselves out to be good. Simple as that. So what you read, know, think, observe in history, the news, your eye, is all opinion from the one's who observe and write the story. And everytime, the one's who write it are biased and extreme. or they hate themself...because human kind is biased and extreme.

[sweetsugar]

The book of revelations will happen. But not the way it says, those things are symbolisms. No dragon is gonna pop outta the ocean and start reeking havoc. But maybe some kinda new submarine might, thats what its talking about. Jeese you people take thing to literally.

Little John fly's the rebel flag all the time and he's black. Alot of black people in the south fly the rebel flag because their ancestors marched to war under it and they are proud of there ancestors.

[13th hour]

Little John fly's the rebel flag all the time and he's black. Alot of black people in the south fly the rebel flag because their ancestors marched to war under it and they are proud of there ancestors.

Little John also sang, "Till the sweat drips down my balls"

[Justin_stacy]

Hey, remember back when, about 40 years ago when desegregation was considered liberal thought? .
Except for the fact that the Civil Right act of 64' was a republican sponsored bill; a re-write of previous republican acts (57' and 60'), both of which were struck down by 'liberal' democrats; and it carried a far great majority of republican votes then democrat votes (79% to 63%).....So, now, lets stop with this revisionist history that liberals just love to play…..

[instantkarma101]

well, from what i've heard actually....republicans and democrats have switched rolls...i dunno when. but they did. In fact, if anyone knows about this, please post more about it because I want to know. But! liberals were republicans once and conservatives were democrats. So technically, well i'm not sure, but possibly, that was still a liberal act. But! liberal on the republican side.

[Justin_stacy]

well, from what i've heard actually....republicans and democrats have switched rolls....
Parties have changed positions on certain issues, but an overall (i.e. every issue) switch has never occurred....where the republicans are now, on the issue of civil rights, is exactly where they've always been (whether that’s good or bad is up for discussion), but it is the democrats that have done a complete one-eight on the issue, which gives this “perception” that the parties had a "switch"...

[Sinister Rouge]

The reason why Democrats have less votes on that bill is because there were still quite conservative and some southern Dems were racist.

It was a "liberal" movement though...this movement was about equality, which is a leftist value.

[Justin_stacy]

The reason why Democrats have less votes on that bill is because there were still quite conservative and some southern Dems were racist.

It was a liberal movement though

your so on the "ball" how could anyone argue with you.....?

[Sinister Rouge]

Parties have changed positions on certain issues, but an overall (i.e. every issue) switch has never occurred....where the republicans are now, on the issue of civil rights, is exactly where they've always been (whether that’s good or bad is up for discussion), but it is the democrats that have done a complete one-eight on the issue, which gives this “perception” that the parties had a "switch"...

In the 19th century, the parties were the complete ideological opposite of what they are today. In the 60's, both were pretty much moderate, but the southern Dems were quite conservative...the Dems carried ther south in the 60's. The Dems have swinged to the left, the Republicans to the right since then. Now black voters favor the dems 8-1 over the Republicans...

Strom Thurmond was a Dem when he started his career...and in his early days, he was racist.

[birdman]

Bill Maher was on Larry King Live tonight and I love what he said about the south, being a southerner (Texan) I find this true....

CALLER: How do we get southern voters voting Democrat again? Thank you, Bill. Thank you, Larry.

KING: Will the South ever vote Democratic?

MAHER: You know, that's a sore point with me, the south. The way that they have the stranglehold over the electorate. Because, excuse me, and I love playing to red states, because when I play the red states my stand-up act I get all the people 40 don't usually have someone like me come to their state. So there's a great bonding.

And I feel for them, because there's a lot of smart people in the south. But in general, it is the dumbest part of the country. Excuse me. It is. And also, they're the super patriots. The one part of the country that ever actually seceded. The one part of the country that ever actually committed treason. And they seem to lead in how we are supposed to think. Because they're more religious, they're more patriotic and I think it's just a disservice to our...

KING: You think in modern-day America you could still claim a whole region is dumber than another region?

MAHER: They lead the region in dumbness, yes, they do. Because there's just too many people who think that every problem can be solved by either more guns or more Jesus. And like I said, I'm with the people who are following the compass. Not the people who are reading the entrails of the chicken. They're the people who are reading the entrails of the chicken.

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about the chicken and the compass...

CALLER: Yes, do you think President Bush is sincere in supporting Ariel Sharon's position, the government with denying the Palestinians right of return or do you think this is just a ploy to get the Jewish vote? MAHER: I think this is all -- this has everything to do with the fact that George Bush is a born-again Christian. OK, and this is why religion is so dangerous in our society. Because George Bush is not just a Christian. He's a born-again, they believe Jesus is coming back any day now. And they want everything to be perfect for him. They call it the rapture, right?

KING: Why is that bad?

MAHER: Well, Thomas Jefferson said the book of revelations was the ravings of a lunatic. George Bush organizes his foreign policy around it. That's why it's bad. Because his decisions about Israel are affected by his religious beliefs.

KING: You mean that Christ is coming back Israel.

MAHER: Jesus is coming back, and he's not coming back to Toledo, Larry, he's coming back to his home, which is Jerusalem, which has to be in Jewish hands because the Jews have a very important role to play when Jesus comes back, which is, of course, to be dead. Because there can't be any Jews around.

KING: That's right, yes.

MAHER: I mean, this is scary stuff. Because it's completely irrational. It's like half this country wants to guide our ship of state by a compass. A compass, something that works by science and rationality, and imperial wisdom. And half this country wants to kill a chicken and read the entrails like they used to do in the old Roman Empire. And I'm with the compass people.


Southerners may lead the region in "dumbness" (which I dont believe is a word), but Bill Maher leads the region in idiocy and ignorance. Add Fat Mike, Michael Moore, AL Franken, and anyone else in a punk band who thinks they are cool for saying shit about Bush to that list. None of them know what they are talking about.

[Justin_stacy]

Strom Thurmond was a Dem when he started his career...and in his early days, he was racist.

and your point? Senator Byrd was/is a racist and he’s still a democrat, al gores dad was a racist and he stayed with the democrats (and is credited by his son as being his biggest influence in politics)....both opposed and filibustered the Civil Rights act 65'.....

[VinnyVegas]

Southerners may lead the region in "dumbness" (which I dont believe is a word), but Bill Maher leads the region in idiocy and ignorance. Add Fat Mike, Michael Moore, AL Franken, and anyone else in a punk band who thinks they are cool for saying shit about Bush to that list. None of them know what they are talking about.

I seriously doubt you would last more than 60 seconds in a debate with Bill Maher. I'm sure it would be interesting to see who knows more about what they are talking about.

[Sinister Rouge]

and your point? Senator Byrd was/is a racist and he’s still a democrat, al gores dad was a racist and he stayed with the democrats (and is credited by his son as being his biggest influence in politics)....both opposed and filibustered the Civil Rights act 65'.....

The Republicans have much more racists than Dems do, and Byrd is no longer a racist....isn't some of Bush's appointees for judges racist.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2075662

But the civil rights movement isn't about the parties, its about ideology and the left wing ideology of equality spurred the civil rights movement.

[nards228]

Hey, remember back when, about 40 years ago when desegregation was considered liberal thought? Mahr is right, you conservative christians have such a stranglehold on this country youd go to war to prevent anything that didnt agree with Jesus.
Don't be stupid. Liberal does not equate correct, and that's all there is to it. Take your fashionable pseudo-intellectual fake activisim and cram it up your ass.



Rennard

[ohlookitspaul]

there's racists on both sides. everyone knows that. the republicans just try and deny it. "we live in a colorblind society!"

[Sinister Rouge]

Hey, remember back when, about 40 years ago when desegregation was considered liberal thought? Mahr is right, you conservative christians have such a stranglehold on this country youd go to war to prevent anything that didnt agree with Jesus.

liberal doesn't always mean correct, for example liberal spending is a bad thing...

The problem with conservative christians is that they don't use logic, they use blind faith and it is extremely dangerous...and it is slowing or reversing social progress.

[birdman]

liberal doesn't always mean correct, for example liberal spending is a bad thing...

The problem with conservative christians is that they don't use logic, they use blind faith and it is extremely dangerous...and it is slowing or reversing social progress.

And do you think Bill Maher uses logic???? You are talking like all liberals are atheist. Not true at all.

[birdman]

Don't be stupid. Liberal does not equate correct, and that's all there is to it. Take your fashionable pseudo-intellectual fake activisim and cram it up your ass.



Rennard

That is my favorite post of all time. You really said it all right there.

[Sinister Rouge]

And do you think Bill Maher uses logic???? You are talking like all liberals are atheist. Not true at all.

Notice I say conservative Christians, and not Christians as a whole.....

Bill Maher is the man...and he is not afraid to speak his mind. He uses more logic than most people.

[birdman]

Notice I say conservative Christians, and not Christians as a whole.....

Bill Maher is the man...and he is not afraid to speak his mind. He uses more logic than most people.

Well, im not afraid to speak my mind either. And I think Bill Maher is just another limousine liberal that uses his dry opinions to gain a certain target audience. If Kerry is elected, do you think Bill Maher will go after him, expose his mistakes, I doubt it. He basically says that if you vote republican you are dumb, I would say that is pure ignorance wouldnt you. Thats like saying if you are black you are a criminal.

See, I think in order to be a effective media pundit you have to HATE both sides, not agree with both sides. You have to think BOTH sides are crazy. Which is basically what I think, but I am still voting for Bush.

See, I hate Michael Moore, but there is one thing I have to give him credit for. He may bash Bush a lot, but he also bashed Clinton, and he will bash Kerry. He will make millions lying about anyone, not just republicans!

[Sinister Rouge]

Well, im not afraid to speak my mind either. And I think Bill Maher is just another limousine liberal that uses his dry opinions to gain a certain target audience. If Kerry is elected, do you think Bill Maher will go after him, expose his mistakes, I doubt it. He basically says that if you vote republican you are dumb, I would say that is pure ignorance wouldnt you. Thats like saying if you are black you are a criminal.

See, I think in order to be a effective media pundit you have to HATE both sides, not agree with both sides. You have to think BOTH sides are crazy. Which is basically what I think, but I am still voting for Bush.

See, I hate Michael Moore, but there is one thing I have to give him credit for. He may bash Bush a lot, but he also bashed Clinton, and he will bash Kerry. He will make millions lying about anyone, not just republicans!

Yes, Maher will go after Kerry, he does have some conservative views. But he thinks the Bush administration is leading the nation into disaster

He said that the Dems anger about Gov. Schwarzenegger calling them girlie men is false anger....

BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER, (R) GOVERNOR OF CALIFORNIA: If they don't have the guts to come out here in front of you and say I don't want to represent you, I want to represent those special interests, the unions, the trial lawyers, and I want them to make the millions of dollars. I don't want to represent you. If they don't have the guts, I call them girlie men. You should go back to the table and you should fix the budget.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: What do you make of the girlie men comment? A comment he had made previously on Saturday Night Live?

MAHER: We talked about this issue before, called fake outrage. I mean I'm no big fan of Governor Schwarzenegger, but this is nothing. It's fake outrage. Anyone who really is outraged that at comment is a girlie man! you should wear a plaid skirt if you're outraged.

I live in the south, alot of Bush voters down here are morons because they are lower class white folk who vote their culture and heritage and not their true interests. Some Bush voters are not morons, like corporate heads who benefit from him. I live in the South and I have to say Maher is right in what he said about the south. The South is the poorest region in the country and it is going Republican...thats not too smart.

[instantkarma101]

Both political sides suck ass. Anyone want to start a revolution?

[Justin_stacy]

The Republicans have much more racists than Dems do, and Byrd is no longer a racist....isn't some of Bush's appointees for judges racist..

I wonder what you base that on? Blind stupidity or political ignorance? Because personally I was unaware that the Republicans had a race based Caucus within their party, nor did I realize that they used race (racist?) based groups to drum up (demand) support for themselves among the weak and uneducated....I also didn't realize that they, unlike the other party in congress, were willing to over look "racial" and "racist" comments made by people with in their party (i.e. Hilary, Byrd, Corrine Brown).....But see, you must know something I don't....

http://slate.msn.com/id/2075662..

Actions tend to speak louder then words, thurmond was the first Southern senator to hire a black staffer; he supported the extension of the Voting Rights Act; he voted for the creation of a national holiday for Martin Luther King, Jr.; and he endorsed colorblind government contract awards. He also was one of the first democrat judges, in south carolina, to support better funding of black schools and this was in the late forties......


But the civil rights movement isn't about the parties, its about ideology and the left wing ideology of equality spurred the civil rights movement.

Economic freedom was also "spurred" on by left wing "thought"....but it has taken the "right wing" to keep the movement alive, so the orgin of an "idea" does not really dictate who promotes it, currently...

[Justin_stacy]

Well, im not afraid to speak my mind either. And I think Bill Maher is just another limousine liberal that uses his dry opinions to gain a certain target audience. If Kerry is elected, do you think Bill Maher will go after him, expose his mistakes, I doubt it. He basically says that if you vote republican you are dumb, I would say that is pure ignorance wouldnt you. Thats like saying if you are black you are a criminal.
!

Thats not all true, although i doubt he'll go after Kerry as much as he did Bush.....Maher is still not a blind support of modern (american) "liberalism"....you should really read his book "When You Ride Alone You Ride With Bin Laden: What the Government Should Be Telling Us to Help Fight the War on Terrorism"...i think you'd be amused at some of things he says, such as his support for airport profiling, instead of the blatantly ignorant system we have now.....

[sweetsugar]

Little John also sang, "Till the sweat drips down my balls"
Dude, he's the king of crunk

he can sing whatever he wants

[NERD_dudley2000]

Here is what i don't understand, and maybe someone could clarify for me. How is slavery still and issue? I mean, it has been abolished for sometime, and a lot of people are still upset by the whole thing. I mean, yeah, it was pretty shitty to do. But whatever someone says or does won't change the fact that it happened.

[ohlookitspaul]

Here is what i don't understand, and maybe someone could clarify for me. How is slavery still and issue? I mean, it has been abolished for sometime, and a lot of people are still upset by the whole thing. I mean, yeah, it was pretty shitty to do. But whatever someone says or does won't change the fact that it happened.
what do you mean? clarify more. what exactly are you arguing against?

[vikingstrike182]

I think he is trying to say that he doesn't understand why people still get upset with slavery as part of our history. There is nothing that can be done about it, and it has been abolished for 140 years? I think that is what he is trying to say.

[playinforkeeps]

For alot of people in the south, the confederate flag doesn't mean hate or racism. The confederate flag is also heritage and history for alot of poeple. I think what the bumper sticker is saying, is that if your ignorant about the confederate flag and think its all about hate, then it is. Some people do still think that the confederate flag means racism and hate, but in todays world, I think that most of its not like that. Yes, there is still alot of racesim going on, but it doesn't have anything to do with the confederate flag.

[open mind]

the confederate flag that was created to represent a country that was created because they needed slaves (don't give me the states rights bullshit because the main right the south wanted to keep was the right to own slaves) so badly that they broke off from their own doesn't represent racism?in a 150 years are people gonna say it's not racist to display swastikas because it's german heritage and history?
like i said earlier i think it's stupid to be proud of the confederate flag, go ahead and display it, it's your right to do so. it's also my right to give you shit about it.

[open mind]

I wonder what you base that on? Blind stupidity or political ignorance? Because personally I was unaware that the Republicans had a race based Caucus within their party, nor did I realize that they used race (racist?) based groups to drum up (demand) support for themselves among the weak and uneducated....I also didn't realize that they, unlike the other party in congress, were willing to over look "racial" and "racist" comments made by people with in their party (i.e. Hilary, Byrd, Corrine Brown).....But see, you must know something I don't....
voting records are kind of an important thing.......

Actions tend to speak louder then words, thurmond was the first Southern senator to hire a black staffer; he supported the extension of the Voting Rights Act; he voted for the creation of a national holiday for Martin Luther King, Jr.; and he endorsed colorblind government contract awards. He also was one of the first democrat judges, in south carolina, to support better funding of black schools and this was in the late forties......

it's actions like breaking away from the democratic party when they decided to back civil rights, fighting desegregation for all he was worth, and harrassing the first black judge with bullshit at his installation that speak loudest.....those things you listed he did later in his career to survive.


Economic freedom was also "spurred" on by left wing "thought"....but it has taken the "right wing" to keep the movement alive, so the orgin of an "idea" does not really dictate who promotes it, currently...

your telling me the right is fighting for equality? and they are the party keeping that battle alive?

[vikingstrike182]

In order to fully understand where the South is coming from you need to talk to Southereners. I know African-Americans who are NOT offended by the confederate flag. They know that it means "Southern Pride" to a bunch of white guys. It's all your preception on the issue now. It's not like the people who wave it actually own slaves. And, just because they wear it or wave it does not mean they support slavery.

[open mind]

wasn't the first black judge, but the first black supreme court justice.

[open mind]

In order to fully understand where the South is coming from you need to talk to Southereners. I know African-Americans who are NOT offended by the confederate flag. They know that it means "Southern Pride" to a bunch of white guys. It's all your preception on the issue now. It's not like the people who wave it actually own slaves. And, just because they wear it or wave it does not mean they support slavery.
i could wear a swastika and not auctually kill any jews or believe in a superior race.....

[vikingstrike182]

What?

[open mind]

i'm saying by your logic it'd be cool for me to display swastikas as long as i don't auctually go around killing jews and proclaiming i'm from a superior race.

[vikingstrike182]

Well, for that matter I am going to wear one of those "I had an abortion" shirts that lots of people find offensive, but people are still wearing them. You can't just draw the line on one thing and not the other. Wear whatever you want, but don't give other people shit on theirs. What I am saying is that sometimes on here, the opinion that if you wear it you are racist is false. You live so far away from the situation. I don't see why they can't wear it. Everybody makes you out to a racist if you wear the confederate flag. That isn't the case. Do I own one? No. Do I wear one? No. But do I think that they are racist? No.

[open mind]

i never said people who display confederate flags were racist, i said the confederate flag was created solely because of racism, and your a dumbass in my eyes if your proud of it, it's your right to display it and it's my right to say what i think about it if you do. (i've been south to visit relatives, i didn't really see that many confederate flags though)

[vikingstrike182]

Where did I say I was proud of it? No where. Yes, you have the right to say whatever you want. Yes. It was created because of slavery. I SAID IT. Are you happy. I've never disputed that. All I'm saying is that they have every right to wear as you do to speak about it. Just like you.

[open mind]

i never said you can't wear or display what you want did i?

[vikingstrike182]

No. You never did.

[open mind]

the confederate flag is like the swastika in my book, both represent hate, slave labor, and death.........but your just a moron if your proud of either of them.

[vikingstrike182]

the confederate flag is like the swastika in my book, both represent hate, slave labor, and death.........but your just a moron if your proud of either of them.
I respect that. I am not proud of the confederate flag but I understand that it means something different in today's world. I do not support it but I don't condemn it.