House To Apologize For Slavery, Jim Crow [Archive]

TeachBirds2Fly

07/30/08, 03:04 AM

open mind

07/30/08, 11:41 AM

An apology wouldn't hurt, however I am not defending slavery but some people demanding reparations take it too far.
I mean slavery in Africa was already a booming trade before the west came over, they just added to the problem. And surely living in the US now (even in poverty) is far better than most African countries where famine and war plague the continent.

the "they were doing it to" argument is immoral and nonsensical, the west has greatly contributed to the ongoing troubles in africa, and acting like slavery was in any way a favor to black people is pants on head retarded.

windmillninja

07/31/08, 09:50 AM

Priorities, Nancy. Priorities. This is why you guys are at 14%.

tambam

07/31/08, 01:25 PM

This is stupid and pointless.

thespearkid

07/31/08, 01:30 PM

Apology accepted. Now get back to more important issues.

thespearkid

07/31/08, 01:32 PM

Waste of money and time.

glad to see taxpayer money and congress time is being spent on this

This is stupid and pointless.
Well, the Japanese got one a lot quicker than we did so it's not totally pointless. There are more important things to get done though.

allthruwinter

07/31/08, 01:33 PM

I think it's a little late for that, but better late than never.

tambam

07/31/08, 01:56 PM

Well, the Japanese got one a lot quicker than we did so it's not totally pointless. There are more important things to get done though.

Both are pointless. The people apologizing are not the people responsible for it and the victims of slavery aren't around anymore. Apologizing for it isn't going to change anything.

thespearkid

07/31/08, 02:31 PM

Both are pointless. The people apologizing are not the people responsible for it and the victims of slavery aren't around anymore. Apologizing for it isn't going to change anything.
No, but the enslavement of blacks was accepted by government. Only makes sense that if an apology is to be issued, it would be from the government to black people (and the other victims of slavery). I agree it's unnecessary but it's not really pointless.

brentkid

07/31/08, 03:49 PM

Both are pointless. The people apologizing are not the people responsible for it and the victims of slavery aren't around anymore. Apologizing for it isn't going to change anything.
/thread

open mind

07/31/08, 04:08 PM

tambam

07/31/08, 04:52 PM

sure it's not going to change the world, but it is a positive symbolic step forward in race relations.

I honestly don't think it'll do anything. The people still bitter over it aren't going to be satisfied because a bunch of people that had nothing to do with it apologized around 200 years later.

tambam

07/31/08, 04:55 PM

No, but the enslavement of blacks was accepted by government. Only makes sense that if an apology is to be issued, it would be from the government to black people (and the other victims of slavery). I agree it's unnecessary but it's not really pointless.

It's not the same government. This government had nothing to do with what the government at that time accepted. The older government owes an apology to the original black slaves, but that can never happen now so I think the issue should be dropped.

open mind

07/31/08, 04:56 PM

I honestly don't think it'll do anything. The people still bitter over it aren't going to be satisfied because a bunch of people that had nothing to do with it apologized around 200 years later.

even if it doesn't do anything in the end, it's still positive....and that's not something i get to say about our government very often.

CTMarshall

07/31/08, 04:57 PM

sure it's not going to change the world, but it is a positive symbolic step forward in race relations.

Not really. It's not like it would be heartfelt or anything, and it's not like they're just suddenly changing their minds on slavery. Everyone already knows that slavery was horrific. Isn't it kind of inplied that the government regrets that whole era?

open mind

07/31/08, 04:58 PM

It's not the same government. This government had nothing to do with what the government at that time accepted. The older government owes an apology to the original black slaves, but that can never happen now so I think the issue should be dropped.

this government has nothing to do with that government?

open mind

07/31/08, 05:01 PM

Not really. It's not like it would be heartfelt or anything, and it's not like they're just suddenly changing their minds on slavery. Everyone already knows that slavery was horrific. Isn't it kind of inplied that the government regrets that whole era?

not heartfelt? so you believe the current government really likes slavery or something?
when it comes to something like slavery, implied apologies don't really cover it.

tambam

07/31/08, 05:01 PM

even if it doesn't do anything in the end, it's still positive....and that's not something i get to say about our government very often.

It's still pointless, in my opinion.

this government has nothing to do with that government?

What I meant was this government doesn't have the same policies and beliefs concerning slavery. They weren't even around and had nothing to do with the whole slavery issue.

CTMarshall

07/31/08, 05:04 PM

not heartfelt? so you believe the current government really likes slavery or something?
when it comes to something like slavery, implied apologies don't really cover it.

That's not what I meant at all. I just mean that it's nothing that they lived through. How can someone truly apologize for something that they didn't do? I just don't think that it will change anything.

open mind

07/31/08, 05:06 PM

It's still pointless, in my opinion.

What I meant was this government doesn't have the same policies and beliefs concerning slavery. They weren't even around and had nothing to do with the whole slavery issue.

it doesn't hurt anything, and alot of people have wanted this for a long time.....so i don't see why this is something worth deriding.

i guess i see your point there, but this government only exists because of the old one and the policies and laws on slavery were enforced by the same power structure.

tambam

07/31/08, 05:06 PM

That's not what I meant at all. I just mean that it's nothing that they lived through. How can someone truly apologize for something that they didn't do? I just don't think that it will change anything.

Exactly. I don't know how people can be satisfied by this apology when they know that the people accepting of it back then probably wouldn't be sorry.

open mind

07/31/08, 05:07 PM

That's not what I meant at all. I just mean that it's nothing that they lived through. How can someone truly apologize for something that they didn't do? I just don't think that it will change anything.

the government enforced slavery.
it's not about people, it's about past government law and policy.....which is why the government (not certain people) are officially apologizing now.

tambam

07/31/08, 05:08 PM

it doesn't hurt anything, and alot of people have wanted this for a long time.....so i don't see why this is something worth deriding.

i guess i see your point there, but this government only exists because of the old one and the policies and laws on slavery were enforced by the same power structure.

I just think more time and attention can be spent doing more practical things.

That is true, but the individuals in both governments are completely different people with completely different morals and values. That's what I meant.

CTMarshall

07/31/08, 05:11 PM

the government enforced and encouraged slavery.
it's not about people, it's about past government law and policy.....which is why the government (not people) is officially apologizing now.

But the past laws and policies have been changed because someone realized that slavery was not helping our nation. Isn't amending and outlawing slavery enough? And I'm sure that someone had to issue a formal apology back when everything was changed...Our government needs to be more constructive.

open mind

07/31/08, 05:22 PM

I just think more time and attention can be spent doing more practical things.

That is true, but the individuals in both governments are completely different people with completely different morals and values. That's what I meant.

in my opinion this is one of the better things the government has done lately, because it hurts no one and will please quite a few people.......and the government just about always manages to make the practical impractical.
like i said, this isn't about the people running the government....it's about the government.

tambam

07/31/08, 05:26 PM

in my opinion this is one of the better things the government has done lately, because it hurts no one and will please quite a few people.......and the government just about always manages to make the practical impractical.
like i said, this isn't about the people running the government....it's about the government.

The government is the people running it. They're the same thing. I don't see how you can separate the two. And the truth is, the government back then was made up of different people than it is now.

open mind

07/31/08, 05:26 PM

But the past laws and policies have been changed because someone realized that slavery was not helping our nation. Isn't amending and outlawing slavery enough? And I'm sure that someone had to issue a formal apology back when everything was changed...Our government needs to be more constructive.

no, simply outlawing slavery isn't enough.
there is no other formal apology ever made for slavery on behalf of the government that i know of.....i guess the 40 acres and a mule thing might have been acceptable had the government auctually followed through on it.

open mind

07/31/08, 05:32 PM

The government is the people running it. They're the same thing. I don't see how you can separate the two. And the truth is, the government back then was made up of different people than it is now.

it's not supposed to be, and governments live longer then people.

tambam

07/31/08, 05:36 PM

it's not supposed to be, and governments live longer then people.

That still doesn't change the fact that the government is the people who run it... Without the people running it, it wouldn't exist. Therefore, the apology is coming from the people who are currently running it and the people who are currently running it only.

open mind

07/31/08, 05:39 PM

That still doesn't change the fact that the government is the people who run it... Without the people running it, it wouldn't exist. Therefore, the apology is coming from the people who are currently running it and the people who are currently running it only.

the government isn't the people who run it....if it was simply the people who run it it would have fallen apart long ago because we've gone through many sets of people already.

tambam

07/31/08, 05:45 PM

the government isn't the people who run it....if it was simply the people who run it it would have fallen apart long ago because we've gone through many sets of people already.

But it is. It's not some supernatural entity that exists beyond people. It's literally made up of different people that run it throughout the years. That's how the government changes, with the different people that come and go. I don't see how you can dispute that simple fact.

CTMarshall

07/31/08, 05:46 PM

no, simply outlawing slavery isn't enough.
there is no other formal apology ever made for slavery on behalf of the government that i know of.....i guess the 40 acres and a mule thing might have been acceptable had the government auctually followed through on it.

I get where you're coming from, but alot of other things go unnoticed that no one cares about. Why bring attention to something that happened in the past, and that everyone knows (atleast in this country) was horrible. It just seems unnecessary. Sure it's a nice gesture, but thats about it. It accomplishes nothing.

thespearkid

07/31/08, 05:50 PM

It's not the same government. This government had nothing to do with what the government at that time accepted. The older government owes an apology to the original black slaves, but that can never happen now so I think the issue should be dropped.
It's not the same people but it's still the U.S. government. And the issue of slavery can't be dropped yet because blacks have yet to recover as a race in America.

tambam

07/31/08, 05:53 PM

It's not the same people but it's still the U.S. government. And the issue of slavery can't be dropped yet because blacks have yet to recover as a race in America.

Yeah, but it's a totally different government when it comes to who is running it and what they believe now vs. then. I'm not saying we shouldn't remember slavery and not acknowledge the people who were forced into it, but I do think the apology should be dropped because essentially, it's people apologizing for something they didn't do. I don't understand how it can make people feel better when they know that the people in the government who accepted it back then probably wouldn't be sorry about it now.

theliftedlorax8

07/31/08, 06:07 PM

They weren't even around and had nothing to do with the whole slavery issue.

I think the fact that you can refer to it as "the whole slavery issue" shows a pretty startling lack of knowledge of the gravity of the issue. Apologizing for slavery is about so much more than just the capture and enslavement of Africans - it's about the lasting effect that slavery has had on African Americans in the United States. Yes, slavery technically ended a long time ago, but the after-effects were (and are) incredibly strong, and are still being felt by the African American community.

Yeah, but it's a totally different government when it comes to who is running it and what they believe now vs. then. I'm not saying we shouldn't remember slavery and not acknowledge the people who were forced into it, but I do think the apology should be dropped because essentially, it's people apologizing for something they didn't do. I don't understand how it can make people feel better when they know that the people in the government who accepted it back then probably wouldn't be sorry about it now.

I feel like you perceive the apology as a negative thing, and I'm not quite sure why. Other than the fact that you think it's unnecessary to apologize in the first place, why do you think it's a bad idea? Or is that your entire argument?

tambam

07/31/08, 06:10 PM

I think the fact that you can refer to it as "the whole slavery issue" shows a pretty startling lack of knowledge of the gravity of the issue. Apologizing for slavery is about so much more than just the capture and enslavement of Africans - it's about the lasting effect that slavery has had on African Americans in the United States. Yes, slavery technically ended a long time ago, but the after-effects were (and are) incredibly strong, and are still being felt by the African American community.

I feel like you perceive the apology as a negative thing, and I'm not quite sure why. Other than the fact that you think it's unnecessary to apologize in the first place, why do you think it's a bad idea? Or is that your entire argument?

I'm not denying that the effects are strong. I never said it wasn't a crucial issue. I just don't think the government of today has anything to do with what the government in the past decided and I don't think there's any point in the people who are running the government in the present day to apologize for something they didn't do. I'm not against it, I just think it's pointless.

CTMarshall

07/31/08, 06:16 PM

...because a congressman from tennessee wants to be re-elected

haha...well if that's true, then it's really just for personal gain, right? Nothing really apologetic.

thespearkid

07/31/08, 06:18 PM

Yeah, but it's a totally different government when it comes to who is running it and what they believe now vs. then. I'm not saying we shouldn't remember slavery and not acknowledge the people who were forced into it, but I do think the apology should be dropped because essentially, it's people apologizing for something they didn't do. I don't understand how it can make people feel better when they know that the people in the government who accepted it back then probably wouldn't be sorry about it now.
Think of it like this; suppose a little boy breaks his neighbor's window with his baseball. Would it be pointless for his mother to apologize to their neighbor and perhaps, even offer to pay for a new window?

thespearkid

07/31/08, 06:19 PM

...because a congressman from tennessee wants to be re-elected
Stupid. Every senator wants to be re-elected.

tambam

07/31/08, 06:23 PM

Think of it like this; suppose a little boy breaks his neighbor's window with his baseball. Would it be pointless for his mother to apologize to their neighbor and perhaps, even offer to pay for a new window?

I don't see the two as comparable. You can't hold a child accountable for something like that, so obviously his mother has to stand up and do the right thing. The government of the past were grown adults who knew exactly what they were doing. They probably wouldn't even be that sorry now. I just think the whole thing was too horrible and unjust for an apology to make things right approximately 200 years later. As an Iraqi, if in 100 years the government of the future apologizes for invading Iraq, I know I wouldn't feel any better because the people responsible for it have long been dead and would probably still stand by their decision.

thespearkid

07/31/08, 06:24 PM

you're stupid for missing the point. read the article. this is a waste of time and money.
I read it. Your "point" still makes no sense.

theliftedlorax8

07/31/08, 06:25 PM

I'm not denying that the effects are strong. I never said it wasn't a crucial issue. I just don't think the government of today has anything to do with what the government in the past decided and I don't think there's any point in the people who are running the government in the present day to apologize for something they didn't do. I'm not against it, I just think it's pointless.

You have to be able to separate the people from the office. You're right - the current people working for the government didn't own slaves. But the United States Government allowed the legalization of slavery and the Jim Crow laws. And the fact that the Government has finally said "Mea Culpa. We are sorry for this horrible thing that we allowed." is important. By focusing on the triviality that the people who physically wrote the apology weren't alive when slavery happened, you're deliberately missing the point of the gesture.

tambam

07/31/08, 06:30 PM

You have to be able to separate the people from the office. You're right - the current people working for the government didn't own slaves. But the United States Government allowed the legalization of slavery and the Jim Crow laws. And the fact that the Government has finally said "Mea Culpa. We are sorry for this horrible thing that we allowed." is important. By focusing on the triviality that the people who physically wrote the apology weren't alive when slavery happened, you're deliberately missing the point of the gesture.

But the people apologizing for it didn't allow it because they weren't even born at the time. I don't see the government as something that exists independently from the people that run it. I see it as a group of people who make it up and run it at different times throughout history. In my view, the government back then is very different from what it is now because the people who ran it back then were totally different people with different values and beliefs. I'm not missing the point, I see things pretty clearly. I just think the whole thing is a waste of time.

thespearkid

07/31/08, 06:32 PM

would the mother be paid with taxpayer money while she debates, words, and forumulates her apology? will she be using valuable time while doing all this as well, while many other more important issues are at hand?
Do you understand how Congress works?

thespearkid

07/31/08, 06:34 PM

But the people apologizing for it didn't allow it because they weren't even born at the time. I don't see the government as something that exists independently from the people that run it. I see it as a group of people who make it up and run it at different times throughout history. In my view, the government back then is very different from what it is now because the people who ran it back then were totally different people with different values and beliefs. I'm not missing the point, I see things pretty clearly. I just think the whole thing is a waste of time.
Just curious, do you believe that the government of the present has no responsibilities to correct the mistakes of the past government?

CTMarshall

07/31/08, 06:38 PM

Just curious, do you believe that the government of the present has no responsibilities to correct the mistakes of the past government?

Those mistakes were corrected. Apologies aren't a way to correct anything.

tambam

07/31/08, 06:39 PM

Just curious, do you believe that the government of the present has no responsibilities to correct the mistakes of the past government?

It depends on how far apart the governments are. When the victims of past governments have long been dead and so has that past government, and the only thing they can do is offer a verbal apology for something they didn't do, then I really don't see the point. But, say if they can go back and help the people originally affected by doing something tangible like help rebuild their country, or provide aid, then I think that is something useful that should be done.

thespearkid

07/31/08, 06:42 PM

Those mistakes were corrected. Apologies aren't a way to correct anything.
But they don't hurt anything either.

enlighten me
Resolutions like these come from subcommittees who specialize in a certain subject. Obviously, this resolution came from a subcommittee dedicated to race relations of something of the like. This means during their time in the subcommittee, if they weren't working on something like this, then they'd be wasting time.

thespearkid

07/31/08, 06:43 PM

It depends on how far apart the governments are. When the victims of past governments have long been dead and so has that past government, and the only thing they can do is offer a verbal apology for something they didn't do, then I really don't see the point. But, say if they can go back and help the people originally affected by doing something tangible like help rebuild their country, or provide aid, then I think that is something useful that should be done.
I can see that. I think we can both agree that they could've done a lot more than just an apology.

tambam

07/31/08, 06:46 PM

I can see that. I think we can both agree that they could've done a lot more than just an apology.

If they could've done more, then I probably wouldn't find it pointless.

CTMarshall

07/31/08, 06:50 PM

I just realized that it probably looks bad that I'm arguing that it won't make a difference, me being from Alabama and all...haha.

thespearkid

07/31/08, 06:51 PM

all the subcommittee does is decide whether to introduce it or not, which it has. now congress has to take the time to decide whether to pass it, what changes to make, etc. that is wasting time.
The subcommittee writes the bill and if Congress decides it needs to be changed, the subcommittee will be the one who'll make the changes. It's that subcommittees job to do things like this. If the bills they write never get voted on, they're wasting their time. This is just the way congress works. Nothing they do is really a waste of time.

thespearkid

07/31/08, 06:52 PM

I just realized that it probably looks bad that I'm arguing that it won't make a difference, me being from Alabama and all...haha.
Haha. How are the rednecks over there?

CTMarshall

07/31/08, 06:53 PM

Haha. How are the rednecks over there?

haha...well their necks are still red, but it's honestly not too bad. Kinda sucks growing up here and getting labeled as a hillbilly though...oh well..I'll live.

HashHolly

07/31/08, 07:50 PM

no 40 acres no care

thespearkid

07/31/08, 08:08 PM

no 40 acres no care
Don't forget about the mule.

HashHolly

07/31/08, 08:11 PM

Don't forget about the mule.

pfft, they can keep the mules, just gimmie the land, and.....we're even......almost

open mind

08/01/08, 04:55 PM

But it is. It's not some supernatural entity that exists beyond people. It's literally made up of different people that run it throughout the years. That's how the government changes, with the different people that come and go. I don't see how you can dispute that simple fact.

it is run by people, but the people are interchangable.
we still have the same constitution (more or less), we still have the same electoral system (more or less), we still have the same branches of government with the same divisions of power, we still make laws the same way, we still have the same term limits.........so how is this not the same government?

open mind

08/01/08, 04:58 PM

I get where you're coming from, but alot of other things go unnoticed that no one cares about. Why bring attention to something that happened in the past, and that everyone knows (atleast in this country) was horrible. It just seems unnecessary. Sure it's a nice gesture, but thats about it. It accomplishes nothing.

is it really to much to ask for a nice gesture?

lauren<3s music

08/01/08, 05:00 PM

For all those who are concerned about time and energy etc. stuff like this is done quick and easy. i mean hell they pass 64 resolutions in march

tambam

08/01/08, 05:04 PM

it is run by people, but the people are interchangable.
we still have the same constitution (more or less), we still have the same electoral system (more or less), we still have the same branches of government with the same divisions of power, we still make laws the same way, we still have the same term limits.........so how is this not the same government?

I believe the people make all the difference, and in the end, the apology is still coming out of the mouths of people that are not responsible for enslaving African Americans. The fact that the procedures are still more or less the same doesn't change my point.

I certainly don't see my government as the same in even the past five years, because it's motive and goals have changed with new people in power. Who runs the government makes all the difference.

open mind

08/01/08, 05:08 PM

I believe the people make all the difference, and in the end, the apology is still coming out of the mouths of people that are not responsible for enslaving African Americans. The fact that the procedures are still more or less the same doesn't change my point.

I certainly don't see my government as the same in even the past five years, because it's motive and goals have changed with new people in power. Who runs the government makes all the difference.

the people just maintain the government for the most part.
like i said before this isn't about the people running the government today, it's about the fact that this government was a party to and enforced slavery and has never officially apologized for it.
changes in motives and goals do not equal a fundamental change in the way a government works.

tambam

08/01/08, 05:14 PM

the people just maintain the government for the most part.
like i said before this isn't about the people running the government today, it's about the fact that this government was a party to and enforced slavery and has never officially apologized for it.

Not really. People in the government use their roles to gain power and pass laws that reflect their own beliefs and values. They do way more than just maintain it. If people really just maintained it, then it wouldn't matter who you were voting for. But it does matter because people want to elect candidates that will do what they want them to do. The 'government' didn't enforce slavery on its own, the people in it did. Those people didn't just 'maintain' government, they used it to hold power over the people that they made slaves.

open mind

08/01/08, 05:23 PM

Not really. People in the government use their roles to gain power and pass laws that reflect their own beliefs and values. They do way more than just maintain it. If people really just maintained it, then it wouldn't matter who you were voting for. But it does matter because people want to elect candidates that will do what they want them to do. The 'government' didn't enforce slavery on its own, the people in it did. Those people didn't just 'maintain' government, they used it to hold power over the people that they made slaves.

ideally that's not how it's supposed to work....in this government at least, governing isn't supposed to be about spreading your own personal beliefs and values.
i'd argue that these days it makes almost no difference who you vote for.
yes, the people used government as a mechanism to enforce slavery....but that doesn't excuse the government of wrongdoing.......and slavery was the status quo from the time this country was founded until it was abolished, so keeping slavery until then was in fact simply maintaining government.

tambam

08/01/08, 05:27 PM

ideally that's not how it's supposed to work....in this government at least, governing isn't supposed to be about spreading your personal beliefs and values.
i'd argue that these days it makes almost no difference who you vote for.
yes, the people used government as a mechanism to enforce slavery....but that doesn't excuse the government of wrongdoing.......and slavery was the status quo from the time this country was founded until it was abolished, so keeping slavery until then was maintaining government.

No one is excusing it, I'm sure most reasonable people would think what they did back then was aweful. I just think an apology some 200 years later from people who had nothing to do with it is pointless. Anywho, let's just agree to disagree.

open mind

08/01/08, 05:28 PM

No one is excusing it, I'm sure most reasonable people would think what they did back then was aweful. I just think an apology some 200 years later from people who had nothing to do with it is pointless. Anywho, let's just agree to disagree.

it's an apology from the government.

HashHolly

08/02/08, 06:17 AM

Wait Wait Wait......reparations?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080802/ap_on_el_pr/obama_slavery_reparations

"Some two dozen members of Congress are co-sponsors of legislation to create a commission that would study reparations — that is, payments and programs to make up for the damage done by slavery.

The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People supports the legislation, too. Cities around the country, including Obama's home of Chicago, have endorsed the idea, and so has a major union, the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees."