View Full Version : Reparations, Maybe?
HashHolly
08/02/08, 06:35 AM
"Some two dozen members of Congress are co-sponsors of legislation to create a commission that would study reparations — that is, payments and programs to make up for the damage done by slavery.
The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People supports the legislation, too. Cities around the country, including Obama's home of Chicago, have endorsed the idea, and so has a major union, the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080802/ap_on_el_pr/obama_slavery_reparations
thespearkid
08/02/08, 06:55 AM
I'm conflicted. On one hand, I don't think direct payments are the best route. On the other hand, I've never been one to be opposed to getting free money.
HashHolly
08/02/08, 07:09 AM
I'm conflicted. On one hand, I don't think direct payments are the best route. On the other hand, I've never been one to be opposed to getting free money.
Truth, I agree with Obama's stance on helping all but, if the government wants to cut me a check, im not going to deny them.
Money makes up for slavery?
CubbyNick42
08/02/08, 09:58 AM
Other than the fact that there aren't any slaves living, the whole idea of reparations is a slap in the face. "We're really sorry about those centuries of bondage your ancestors had to endure. Go buy your kids a pool."
Yes. And?
08/02/08, 10:14 AM
Truth, I agree with Obama's stance on helping all but, if the government wants to cut me a check, im not going to deny them.
Haha, I agree.
thespearkid
08/02/08, 02:14 PM
If this goes down, I wonder exactly how they'll distribute it/how much everyone gets.
Other than the fact that there aren't any slaves living, the whole idea of reparations is a slap in the face. "We're really sorry about those centuries of bondage your ancestors had to endure. Go buy your kids a pool."
more like "go buy yourself some crack"
go cubs!
thespearkid
08/02/08, 02:23 PM
more like "go buy yourself some crack"
go cubs!
Reported.
x togepi x
08/02/08, 02:37 PM
Other than the fact that there aren't any slaves living, the whole idea of reparations is a slap in the face. "We're really sorry about those centuries of bondage your ancestors had to endure. Go buy your kids a pool."
what about the fact that we've given some sort of reparations to the native americans and japanese-americans for things our government did to their families? isn't the fact that slavery is basically the only thing we haven't tried to do anything in response of more of a slap in the face?
open mind
08/02/08, 02:45 PM
what about the fact that we've given some sort of reparations to the native americans and japanese-americans for things our government did to their families? isn't the fact that slavery is basically the only thing we haven't tried to do anything in response of more of a slap in the face?
what reparations did the native americans (kinda odd to say they're all one group by the way) and japanese americans receive?
thespearkid
08/02/08, 02:45 PM
Japanese Americans got money.
open mind
08/02/08, 02:50 PM
Japanese Americans got money.
nice.
x togepi x
08/02/08, 02:55 PM
what reparations did the native americans (kinda odd to say they're all one group by the way) and japanese americans receive?
i think japanese american families effected by internment got like 10 grand a piece in the 80s. people who can prove that they have a specific percentage of native american blood get free healthcare, special grants for college and some other things.
thespearkid
08/02/08, 02:57 PM
I'm 1/8th Native American. Is that enough percentage for free healthcare?
open mind
08/02/08, 02:58 PM
i think japanese american families effected by internment got like 10 grand a piece in the 80s. people who can prove that they have a specific percentage of native american blood get free healthcare, special grants for college and some other things.
yeah i looked it up after asking. every victim got 20,000.
are you sure that all native americans get free healthcare? i do but that's because of ANCSA, not reparations.
there's a special college grant for most anything so i dunno if that qualifies.
HashHolly
08/02/08, 03:14 PM
Other than the fact that there aren't any slaves living, the whole idea of reparations is a slap in the face. "We're really sorry about those centuries of bondage your ancestors had to endure. Go buy your kids a pool."
Eh, id consider it a step in the right direction.
If this goes down, I wonder exactly how they'll distribute it/how much everyone gets.
Probably a check from the IRS.......i would still rather 40 acres over $$ though.......how much do you think would be acceptable?
thespearkid
08/02/08, 03:24 PM
Probably a check from the IRS.......i would still rather 40 acres over $$ though.......how much do you think would be acceptable?
The Japanese got $20,000 per family to 60,000 families. 2000 census says there are twelve million or so black families in America. If I were writing the bill, I'd do $5000 for a singular black person, $10,000 if they have a family. Also, I think there should be some sort of criteria for who gets the money. When the Japanese got paid, it was only if there grandparents had been interned. It's harder to trace direct lineages for slavery so I'd only give money to people who were employed or something. I don't know.
oldwirehands
08/02/08, 03:36 PM
The only people that deserve reparations are Native Americans but there aren't too many of them left now are there? Errrr... I want to rant but I'll just sit here and let it be known that I think this is a stupid idea. There are greater problems to be taken cared of.
I'm 1/8th Native American. Is that enough percentage for free healthcare?
Doesn't matter unless you maintain tribal affiliations. (I'm not even sure what that entails).
And I think the special college grant togepi is referring to is part of affirmative action?
open mind
08/02/08, 04:25 PM
The only people that deserve reparations are Native Americans but there aren't too many of them left now are there? Errrr... I want to rant but I'll just sit here and let it be known that I think this is a stupid idea. There are greater problems to be taken cared of.
we're still around, mostly in alaska, new mexico, south dakota, oklahoma, montana, north dakota, and arizona.
ghostyouare
08/02/08, 05:55 PM
what about the fact that we've given some sort of reparations to the native americans and japanese-americans for things our government did to their families? isn't the fact that slavery is basically the only thing we haven't tried to do anything in response of more of a slap in the face?
The japanese-american reparations were paid directly to the people who endured the camps but my big problem with handing out money in this case that is that it makes people think that some how money would make up for slavery some how.
thespearkid
08/02/08, 06:45 PM
Absolutely no one deserves reperations unless they themselves were the victim of some kind of injustice, not their ancestors.
Maybe not but reparations are more symbolic than anything else.
HashHolly
08/02/08, 07:03 PM
The Japanese got $20,000 per family to 60,000 families. 2000 census says there are twelve million or so black families in America. If I were writing the bill, I'd do $5000 for a singular black person, $10,000 if they have a family. Also, I think there should be some sort of criteria for who gets the money. When the Japanese got paid, it was only if there grandparents had been interned. It's harder to trace direct lineages for slavery so I'd only give money to people who were employed or something. I don't know.
I think 10k for Individuals and 20k for familys sound fair, narrowed down to African American taxpayers.
The only people that deserve reparations are Native Americans but there aren't too many of them left now are there? Errrr... I want to rant but I'll just sit here and let it be known that I think this is a stupid idea. There are greater problems to be taken cared of.
Fuck that noise, I think that any group of people disadvantaged by America deserves reperatioms.
The japanese-american reparations were paid directly to the people who endured the camps but my big problem with handing out money in this case that is that it makes people think that some how money would make up for slavery some how.
I think it's a step in the right direction
open mind
08/02/08, 09:32 PM
Absolutely no one deserves reperations unless they themselves were the victim of some kind of injustice, not their ancestors.
my mom's generation was beaten for speaking their language in school, had to put up with segregation, not being able to vote, and many priceless artifacts and various works of art were destroyed or stolen.......not quite slavery, but definately injustice.
speaking of our government putting blameless civilians into internment camps.......several aleut villages were uprooted and placed in camps with deplorable conditions (many died) during world war II.
x togepi x
08/02/08, 10:16 PM
Absolutely no one deserves reperations unless they themselves were the victim of some kind of injustice, not their ancestors.
ah so racism doesn't exist anymore. cool.
x togepi x
08/02/08, 10:30 PM
yeah i looked it up after asking. every victim got 20,000.
are you sure that all native americans get free healthcare? i do but that's because of ANCSA, not reparations.
there's a special college grant for most anything so i dunno if that qualifies.
my friend who's part-some kind of native american nation said she gets free healthcare because of it from the federal government. she had to do all this paper work and get a special insurance card from the bureau of native american affairs. i think it's kind of the same concept as the ANCSA, but applying to continental native americans.
open mind
08/02/08, 11:31 PM
my friend who's part-some kind of native american nation said she gets free healthcare because of it from the federal government. she had to do all this paper work and get a special insurance card from the bureau of native american affairs. i think it's kind of the same concept as the ANCSA, but applying to continental native americans.
eh, BIA healthcare is bullshit because it's notoriously poor and isn't available in alot of states....and that system wasn't set up to make reparations because BIA healthcare came packed in with the drive to forcibly assimilate and "civilize" the "savages".
alaska natives have free healthcare that's managed by the various native corporations that were created when ANCSA passed, and it's not really all that shitty, so it's not much like what the BIA offers at all.
oldwirehands
08/03/08, 12:10 AM
we're still around, mostly in alaska, new mexico, south dakota, oklahoma, montana, north dakota, and arizona.
There are still not a lot left. Not at even close to the amount of African Americans or Latino. I also think its a little too late to give reparations for slavery. About 70-80 years too late.
x togepi x
08/03/08, 12:14 AM
eh, BIA healthcare is bullshit because it's notoriously poor and isn't available in alot of states....and that system wasn't set up to make reparations because BIA healthcare came packed in with the drive to forcibly assimilate and "civilize" the "savages".
alaska natives have free healthcare that's managed by the various native corporations that were created when ANCSA passed, and it's not really all that shitty, so it's not much like what the BIA offers at all.
yeah when i did research on it a few years back i heard a lot about how blood quantum laws were essentially a way to colonialize the native americans. i wasn't aware that it was horrible, but i thought the government's line was that this was reparations for stealing their land?
thespearkid
08/03/08, 07:28 AM
Like I said, if they were the victims of injustice then the options should be explored.
Modern blacks aren't direct victims of slavery but our race as a whole has yet to recover from it. A check from the government won't fix everything but it's a step in the right direction.
Has yet to recover from it or has yet to quit making excuses and gotten a job?
Has yet to recover from it or has yet to quit making excuses and get a job?
:popcorn:
thespearkid
08/03/08, 09:59 AM
Has yet to recover from it or has yet to quit making excuses and gotten a job?
Putting the racist on ignore in 3... 2... 1...
I've never been one to be opposed to getting free money.
You are one joke of a "Libertarian". It's not supposed to be "free money", you are supposed to live with the pain that our forefathers inflicted upon your ancestors.
I feel it everyday. The pain.
HashHolly
08/03/08, 10:37 AM
Has yet to recover from it or has yet to quit making excuses and gotten a job?
You are one joke of a "Libertarian". It's not supposed to be "free money", you are supposed to live with the pain that our forefathers inflicted upon your ancestors.
I feel it everyday. The pain.
Troll Much?
saysmydoctor
08/03/08, 10:47 AM
Indian Affairs Again.
Troll Much?
You want reparations for that too?
paper halo
08/03/08, 11:18 AM
You want reparations for that too?
Please.
open mind
08/03/08, 05:30 PM
yeah when i did research on it a few years back i heard a lot about how blood quantum laws were essentially a way to colonialize the native americans. i wasn't aware that it was horrible, but i thought the government's line was that this was reparations for stealing their land?
yeah it's pretty bad healthcare......and no, it's wasn't for reparations, it was originally put in place to help with assimilation efforts.
http://dpc.senate.gov/dpc-new.cfm?doc_name=fs-110-2-3
open mind
08/03/08, 05:40 PM
A black man can get a job he can go to school he can buy books he can go to college. Stop drawing wide trends and ask yourself, how are you in anyway unable to succeed in life based on any legislative discrimination?
never mind the consequences past policy has indirectly had on todays minorities right?
legislative discrimination is just the tip of the iceberg.....there are various policies that aren't legislated that are still quite prevalent, and racism and discrimination in todays world is very subtle, rarely noted, and downright passive aggressive in most cases.....but here's a couple things anyways.
many schools aren't funded properly, that's decided on a legislative level.
no child left behind effectively punishes schools because students that come from certain communities don't have the strongest hold on the english language.
thespearkid
08/03/08, 05:42 PM
A black man can get a job he can go to school he can buy books he can go to college. Stop drawing wide trends and ask yourself, how are you in anyway unable to succeed in life based on any legislative discrimination?
Blacks are still the poorest race in America due to slavery/Jim Crow. Black communities are poor and black school systems suffer from underfunding. The kids don't get a good education and can't get into college (not that they could afford to go anyway). This forces them to go into the same jobs their parents were in or resort to crime. It's a cycle. Personal responsibility has a bit to do with it too but it's not as simple you're trying to make it out to be.
I was lucky enough that my parents avoided the drug lifestyle long enough to drive me out of district to attend the white school in the next town over (as opposed to the black school five minutes from my house). For four years, my parents had to sacrifice a lot of things to be able to afford to drive me twenty minutes out of the black community just to make sure I got a decent education. As sad as it is, a good majority of my community's youth will end up just as poor as their parents or on drugs. Just because there's no DIRECT legislation preventing blacks from escaping poverty, doesn't mean it's as simple as "get a job and go to school".
saysmydoctor
08/03/08, 05:44 PM
Show me that statistic, because I'm willing to bet hispanics have it worse off. They have barrios and go to bad schools too.
thespearkid
08/03/08, 05:44 PM
many schools aren't funded properly, that's decided on a legislative level.
no child left behind effectively punishes schools because students that come from certain communities don't have the strongest hold on the english language.
The black school that I talked about in my above post came very close to getting shut down for under-performing last year. No Child Left Behind is so ridiculous.
thespearkid
08/03/08, 05:45 PM
Show me that statistic, because I'm willing to bet hispanics have it worse off. They have barrios and go to bad schools too.
Hispanics aren't a race so I really wasn't including them but they have it just as bad.
saysmydoctor
08/03/08, 05:47 PM
Hispanics as a collective, genius. Giving you money won't solve any problems.
open mind
08/03/08, 05:50 PM
Hispanics as a collective, genius. Giving you money won't solve any problems.
this argument fails to take into consideration that money wasn't given when it supposedly could have solved problems (why is money no longer a help?).........and is total bullshit because money does solve alot of problems.
thespearkid
08/03/08, 05:52 PM
Hispanics as a collective, genius. Giving you money won't solve any problems.
I know. I've said that a few times already.
doubletrue
08/03/08, 05:54 PM
if we give them money, they will have to promise us they will stop bitching.
thespearkid
08/03/08, 05:55 PM
Ignorant post is ignorant.
open mind
08/03/08, 05:57 PM
if we give them money, they will have to promise us they will stop bitching.
so "we" give them a check for past injustices and get a license to be as racist as "we" want without them being able to complain about it in the future? how reasonable.
doubletrue
08/03/08, 06:06 PM
so "we" give them a check for past injustices and get a license to be as racist as "we" want without them being able to complain about it in the future? how reasonable.
i'm saying if the "government" gave out reparations, there should be absolutely no reason to continue complaining about their ancestor's undeserved hardships. don't pretend like the slavery issue isn't used as a crutch.
To be honest, I thought I'd seen statistics that Native Americans were the poorest, or at the very least that reservations are the poorest areas in the country.
A black man can get a job he can go to school he can buy books he can go to college. Stop drawing wide trends and ask yourself, how are you in anyway unable to succeed in life based on any legislative discrimination?
Hmm.... I dunno, the level of corruption in most southern states is out there. And anyone trying to deny that the governmental response to katrina wasn't at least partially racially motivated is kidding themselves.
thespearkid
08/03/08, 06:10 PM
Quick google search says blacks are poorest (although native americans weren't on the list). We're actually poorer than Hispanics.
thespearkid
08/03/08, 06:11 PM
i'm saying if the "government" gave out reparations, there should be absolutely no reason to continue complaining about their ancestor's undeserved hardships. don't pretend like the slavery issue isn't used as a crutch.
Slavery isn't some bargaining chip. It was a real thing that happened to real people and the black race has yet to recover from it.
open mind
08/03/08, 06:33 PM
i'm saying if the "government" gave out reparations, there should be absolutely no reason to continue complaining about their ancestor's undeserved hardships. don't pretend like the slavery issue isn't used as a crutch.
those undeserved hardships effects are still felt. don't tell me that family and cultural history doesn't effect the present.
for example...there's a big part of a generation of native alaskans who were mistreated and abused as youths who turned to drugs and alcohol to dull the pain, they had kids who were born into disadvantage because of the parents substance abuse and those kids went on and used the same methods as their parents to cope with pain, and then they had kids.......and so on and so forth.
open mind
08/03/08, 06:35 PM
To be honest, I thought I'd seen statistics that Native Americans were the poorest, or at the very least that reservations are the poorest areas in the country.
i'm not really following you here.
open mind
08/03/08, 06:40 PM
No. All that is just pathetic excuses. Life is hard and you do not deserve success handed to you, you have to work for it. What is to stop a black man, a white man, a jewish man, a hispanic man etc.. getting out there reading books getting themselves better training, better qualifications and a better job? There is absolutely no legislative barrier stopping them. Do people have personal prejudices? Sure, but they do towards gays, fat people, ugly people and all kinds of other minorities but do these people expect money for this? No do the fuck and neither should anyone else. Stop damn complaining and get out there and make shit happen for yourself instead of playing the victim and expecting something for nothing.
Yes it is. No school is so bad you cannot go home and read books all night, no school is so bad they don't enter you for exams. Everyone can get a job provided they put some effort in to get the skills, make themselves presentable and they work hard.
I don't care if blacks are the poorest race because is life is not a walk in the park it is fucking hard work and you have it the easiest man has ever had it so stop fucking complaining and make the one life you get worth a damn.
what are the 5 hardest things you've had to go through?
i only ask because i'm wondering if you really know how hard life can be.
I suppose it's difficult to understand, because I am not black. But here's my perception of it, as a white American.
I think everyone can get out if they try. My family is poor, not dirt poor, but 30,000 a year with 4 kids and a single mother. My other two brothers have dropped out of high school and are into drugs, I am not. I have finished school and am going to college by working two jobs. So I do have trouble seeing why it's a matter of your skin color, rather than how hard you work.
I do not see why a check would help racism in the country. Yes, your people were treated badly and had inadequate and unfair rights in earlier decades, but so did women as well. Should women who were affected by sexism receive a check as well? Now, I'll be completely honest, if this was flipped around, I would be for reparations, because I don't want to turn down free money. But, completely being unbiased, I do not think reparations is the right way to go. How would we decide who gets the money?
x togepi x
08/03/08, 06:46 PM
Not very much because my parents are reasonably well of, much more so after they divorced than before and because I have chosen never to become involved in drugs, criminal activity or other badthings.
But still, I work a part time where I work hard, I do well at school and university because I study hard etc.. There is nothing I have achieved in my life that anyone living in the UK right now couldn't have achieved had they put the effort in.
yeah but we're talking about the US, which is completely different.
open mind
08/03/08, 06:52 PM
I suppose it's difficult to understand, because we are not black. But here's my perception of it, as a white American.
I think everyone can get out if they try. My family is poor, not dirt poor, but 30,000 a year with 4 kids and a single mother. My other two brothers have dropped out of high school and are into drugs, I am not. I have finished school and am going to college by working two jobs. So I do have trouble seeing why it's a matter of your skin color, rather than how hard you work.
I do not see why a check would help racism in the country. Yes, your people were treated badly and had inadequate and unfair rights in earlier decades, but so did women as well. Should women who were affected by sexism receive a check as well? Now, I'll be completely honest, if this was flipped around, I would be for reparations, because I don't want to turn down free money. But, completely being unbiased, I do not think reparations is the right way to go. How would we decide who gets the money?
sure you can get out if you really try........but odds are if your living in a community still suffering the effects of past mistreatments (poverty, substance abuse, violence) you're going to make some poor decisions at a young age.
reparations aren't supposed to cure racism, the idea is they're supposed to compensate people for gross past mistreatment of their families and communities.
sexism and slavery/racism aren't really the same thing.
thespearkid
08/03/08, 06:54 PM
No. All that is just pathetic excuses. Life is hard and you do not deserve success handed to you, you have to work for it. What is to stop a black man, a white man, a jewish man, a hispanic man etc.. getting out there reading books getting themselves better training, better qualifications and a better job? There is absolutely no legislative barrier stopping them. Do people have personal prejudices? Sure, but they do towards gays, fat people, ugly people and all kinds of other minorities but do these people expect money for this? No do the fuck and neither should anyone else. Stop damn complaining and get out there and make shit happen for yourself instead of playing the victim and expecting something for nothing.
For one thing, where are these poor people supposed to get the money to buy books? Most impoverished areas don't even have libraries. Getting better training and qualifications costs money too. It's a cycle. We're poor because we have no training and we have no training because we're poor. And I'm not complaining or trying to play the victim or anything. I've been handed a lot of lucky breaks in my life and I've used them to the fullest and not every black person can say that but to act as if every single poor person in the world had the chance to be something better is ignorant.
Yes it is. No school is so bad you cannot go home and read books all night, no school is so bad they don't enter you for exams. Everyone can get a job provided they put some effort in to get the skills, make themselves presentable and they work hard.
I don't care if blacks are the poorest race because is life is not a walk in the park it is fucking hard work and you have it the easiest man has ever had it so stop fucking complaining and make the one life you get worth a damn.
There are schools so poor that they can't afford a book for every student so no one gets the opportunity to "read books all night". I honestly don't see why people think it's as simple as "work hard and all your dreams will come true". If it were that simple, there wouldn't be such an obvious gap between the poverty rates of whites compared to that of blacks.
x togepi x
08/03/08, 06:54 PM
How? I know you pay a lot for college but so does everyone and if you really can't afford it then work hard a scholarship or work for five years and go back to college.
No one is yet to show me places where the average white man can go yet the average black man can't.
My parent's front yard.
No seriously. I'm sitting at my parents house because we have family in from the coast. The man across the street from me is the head of a registered hate group. One time I had a black friend over and we were tossing a ball around my front yard, and the next day the dude threw a brick through my windshield.
he has also tried to get me arrested on "drug charges" when I was super straight edge because I had friends who are minorities.
I can go to plenty of places in the US where, as a white person, I'm safe and everything, but if I were of another race, I'd, at best, be considered an instant suspect, and at worst, probably be attacked in some way. I mean, one of the biggest country songs in the US today, "Beer For My Horses" By Toby Keith celebrates lynchings. It's way different than the UK.
hell ben, my hometown has an annual festival every year meant to celebrate confederate terrorists who were fighting for missouri's right to have slaves. it's completely fucked up.
open mind
08/03/08, 06:54 PM
Not very much because my parents are reasonably well of, much more so after they divorced than before and because I have chosen never to become involved in drugs, criminal activity or other badthings.
so why exactly are you telling people who've probably lived much harder lives than you that life is hard and that they should just man up?
thespearkid
08/03/08, 06:56 PM
How? I know you pay a lot for college but so does everyone and if you really can't afford it then work hard for a scholarship or work for five years and go back to college.
No one is yet to show me places where the average white man can go yet the average black man can't.
Welcome to the deep south.
sure you can get out if you really try........but odds are if your living in a community still suffering the effects of past mistreatments (poverty, substance abuse, violence) you're going to make some poor decisions at a young age.
reparations aren't supposed to cure racism, the idea is they're supposed to compensate people for gross past mistreatment of their families and communities.
sexism and slavery/racism aren't really the same thing.
Which I can completely understand, but the fact is there is a way out, and while they might not have the easiest path right now, they do have one.
Does every African American receive compensation? I just don't see how you could base the compensation on anything, without leaving people out who deserve it or giving to those who don't.
Yes, they kind of are apples and oranges. But both women and minorities would victims of injustice and mistreatment , so in context I think it applies fair enough.
open mind
08/03/08, 07:06 PM
Which I can completely understand, but the fact is there is a way out, and while they might not have the easiest path right now, they do have one.
Does every African American receive compensation? I just don't see how you could base the compensation on anything, without leaving people out who deserve it or giving to those who don't.
Yes, they kind of are apples and oranges. But both women and minorities would victims of injustice and mistreatment , so in context I think it applies fair enough.
they have one, but the game is rigged against them.......especially when the most common way out (good education) isn't widely available in their communities.
i don't think that the idea that some people might recieve reparations that don't really deserve it should be a big enough reason to toss the concept of reparations aside.
very different levels of injustice and mistreatment (at least concerning the united states) and last i checked there were minority women.
they have one, but the game is rigged against them.......especially when the most common way out (good education) isn't widely available in their communities.
i don't think that the idea that some people might recieve reparations that don't really deserve it shouldn't be a big enough reason to toss the idea aside.
very different levels of injustice and mistreatment (at least concerning the united states) and last i checked there were minority women.
Again, I suppose this is different in different regions of the country, but it's not rigged against them anymore than white kids in where I live. Some minorities have disadvantages set against them in schooling, but it's foolish to say all of them do.
That is true, but could you tell me how we would decide who to give reparations to? I know you're not trying to pass this, so I don't expect a full proof answer. But can you see why I'm skeptical of the idea?
Yes, different levels of injustice, but are they okay as long as it's not on this level of mistreatment? And yes, they're are. I'm not sure what that matters though, except they went through harder times than either set of groups.
x togepi x
08/03/08, 07:20 PM
I don't think that can be so widespread and even if it is they could always move. Of course they shouldn't have to but it's not the governments fault people are morons and it shouldn't be held responsible for it.
I thought the entire justification for government was people are morons...
but it's a lot easier to say "move" when you're not, you know, too poor to move. The places i'm talking about, most everyone's poor. Even the racists can't move away to some racist utopia, and things are a lot more widespread than you think. Sure, the coasts are great, but get into the middle of the country which is generally 95% white and you'll see all sorts of racism popping up.
i mean, the city where i live is home to a blatantly racist mexican restaurant chain. you can routinely see letters in the newspaper's editorial section saying "the blacks" are the cause of all the violence in this country. our city government makes a point to close down every club that has predominantly african american customers by claiming some vague "safety" concerns (because one time, a dude got shot downtown, but the dude who got shot and the dude doing the shooting were both white, and nowhere near the hip-hop club i'm talking about).
it exists, you're just lucky that you don't have to deal with it.
open mind
08/03/08, 07:27 PM
Again, I suppose this is different in different regions of the country, but it's not rigged against them anymore than white kids in where I live. Some minorities have disadvantages set against them in schooling, but it's foolish to say all of them do.
That is true, but could you tell me how we would decide who to give reparations to? I know you're not trying to pass this, so I don't expect a full proof answer. But can you see why I'm skeptical of the idea?
Yes, different levels of injustice, but are they okay as long as it's not on this level of mistreatment? And yes, they're are. I'm not sure what that matters though, except they went through harder times than either set of groups.
not all but most........and minorities (on a statistical level) recieve harsher punishments for their misdeeds and are more like likely to be harrased by the authorities most everywhere.
i'd say give reparations to every african american that hasn't immigrated to the u.s. in the last 100 or so years.
injustice isn't ever ok.........but it doesn't always merit compensation. i don't think minority women automattically went through harder times then minority men.
x togepi x
08/03/08, 07:29 PM
While that sucks for sure. Anyone can work for a few years, save up for some cash and get on a train to New York, New England, Washington State or California and get a new job there.
man, you really have no idea what poverty is like.
thespearkid
08/03/08, 07:32 PM
Get a job or go to a library.
You say that as if jobs just fall from the sky to anyone who wants them.
Then get a bus or even walk to a place that does.
Not all cities have a bus system. Mine doesn't (I don't like in Charlotte yet). Do you really expect people to get home from school at 3pm, walk to another town, buy books with money they don't have, walk all the way back home, read all night, and do it all again the next day? Pretty unrealistic expectation.
Perhaps but in that case work what job you can and save up for the training. Perhaps they have kids to pay for but they chose to have those children.
The ones that are lucky enough to have legit jobs are often living paycheck to paycheck and not earning enough to start a savings account of any kind.
No you misunderstand, I have absolutely the utmost sympathy for people living in the third world who don't have the chance. That is the real crime and those are the people who deserve reperations but every single person in mine and your country (barring a few real unfortunate exceptions) do have opportunities yet they don't take them. Now that's fine because I don't care but they shouldn't be expecting money because they don't want to work themselves stupid to make something of there life.
My Dad is a pretty wealthy guy right, but when my mum left him 13 years ago he was completely broke but rather than sit on his ass and demand money from the state he learnt new skills, he worked long hours and came home and worked on his own time so he could earn more in the future and now he has done really well for himself. I see no reason why anyone else couldn't do the same.
Is it a safe assumption that your dad was educated at the time? Education is the best way to get out and that is the main thing these poor black communities lack. Like I said before, if reparations are to be given, I think they should only go to people who are employed or something of the like.
Sure it would. It pretty obvious some cultures have a better work ethic than others.
I work in a kitchen in a restaurant and everyone who works there is white British except for one Polish guy. That Polish guy is the most hard working motherfucker you have ever seen. He can breeze ten hour shifts like it's nothing and always has the tidiest work space, cleans up the quickest after we close and so on.
For some reason black people in America (not so much here) apparently do not have this kind of work ethic. The white people in Britain are the same, they want something for nothing and it's killing my country. On other hands you see Eastern Europeans and Orientals who know what it means to be driven and motivated to suceed in life. They work 60 hour weeks and go home and eat tins of beans to save up money to buy a flat and do they complain? No, because they know that the right way to get somewhere in life is not by other people compensating you and giving you hand outs, it's by doing things for yourself and doing whatever it takes to live the life you want to lead.
I don't think anyone's work ethic is a direct result of their race or ethnicity. That's kind of backwards thinking. I'm black and I work harder than most people I've ever met. I know other blacks who work their asses off but can't escape of the cycle of poverty. Every once in awhile, an individual is able to break out of that cycle and that person changes the future of their family line permenantly but it's rare and difficult. Reparations will help a lot of families break the cycle (even though I'm sure there'll be families who'll just waste it and go right back into poverty).
open mind
08/03/08, 07:35 PM
I earn £5 an hour. Which is £200 a week. My rent last year was £45 a week plus bills and food that's maybe £150 a week tops. After that you have your none essential stuff.
So say I saved £10 every week for two years I'd have £1020. Which is easilly enough to live for six to eight weeks and transport while I found a new job in a new city.
What is to stop even those who live in the poorest areas of America doing the same?
some people have you know......families to support.
also it should be noted that not everyone is willing to leave their family and friends behind to get ahead, and people shouldn't have to.
thespearkid
08/03/08, 07:37 PM
While that sucks for sure. Anyone can work for a few years, save up for some cash and get on a train to New York, New England, Washington State or California and get a new job there.
That doesn't even make any sense. How much do you think it would cost to get a plane ticket to New York and enough money to get an apartment and live off until you can find a job? Now imagine the job you're working at barely pays you enough to live off now? How do you plan to save the money for that?
x togepi x
08/03/08, 07:37 PM
I earn £5 an hour. Which is £200 a week. My rent last year was £45 a week plus bills and food that's maybe £150 a week tops. After that you have your none essential stuff.
So say I saved £10 every week for two years I'd have £1020. Which is easilly enough to live for six to eight weeks and transport while I found a new job in a new city.
What is to stop even those who live in the poorest areas of America doing the same?
because people in the poorest areas generally aren't making enough money to have money to save, and when you couple working with having to go to school on the side, you end up often making yourself look worse to potential colleges because you lack extra curriculars (since you have to go to work after school), and often have lower grades (since you have to go to work after school and might not have time to do your homework/the energy to stay awake in school).
this coupled with the fact that many poor families are in debt for things like medical bills, since they don't have a good enough job to get insurance and can't afford it on their own, means that any extra income they get has to go to paying off the interest on this debt that they couldn't have avoided anyway because it comes about from some sort of freak accident.
often living in poverty is merely making enough to subsist, if even that.
thespearkid
08/03/08, 07:38 PM
I earn £5 an hour. Which is £200 a week. My rent last year was £45 a week plus bills and food that's maybe £150 a week tops. After that you have your none essential stuff.
So say I saved £10 every week for two years I'd have £1020. Which is easilly enough to live for six to eight weeks and transport while I found a new job in a new city.
What is to stop even those who live in the poorest areas of America doing the same?
That's assuming you never get sick, your car never breaks down, etc.
i'm not really following you here.
Not really sure why I said tbh. Basically I've just seen/heard people cite statistics that reservations are the poorest areas in the country.
x togepi x
08/03/08, 07:43 PM
Who says you have to have a car? I don't, because I can't afford it. I get buses and trains and walk everywhere.
I don't expect the government to provide me with one. If I can't afford it that's my problem and if I want one I need to get a better job, get my degree and what not.
I don't think anyone "expects" the government to give them shit...do you seriously think that black communities in this country just sit around and beg for hand outs?
and in some places in the US, you basically have to have a car to get a job. Public transportation is horrible.
open mind
08/03/08, 07:44 PM
Jobs are not that hard to get if you are prepared to do anything. Definitely not here anyway. I could look on the jobcentre (UK Government run employment agency) and find hundreds of jobs in my town alone.
Sometimes you have to do crappy things in life to get where you want to be.
Based on feeding just yourself, anyone can live on a minimum wage.
He's a very smart man but doesn't really have masses of formal education. No college degree.
It's not because of their inherent race but no one can deny that say German people are more productive and efficient than say American people as a whole or that Koreans have a better work ethic than English people.
everyplace isn't like your corner of the uk.
crappy and unrealistic are 2 different things.
you can't live off of minimum wage here, i know that much.
why is the college degree so important? it's a piece of paper that proves next to nothing concerning one's intelligence or practical knowledge.
not all germans are more efficient then the average american, and not all koreans have a better work ethic then the average englishman.
thespearkid
08/03/08, 07:46 PM
Jobs are not that hard to get if you are prepared to do anything. Definitely not here anyway. I could look on the jobcentre (UK Government run employment agency) and find hundreds of jobs in my town alone.
Maybe they're easy to find in the UK but here in America, our economies not producing too many jobs right now.
Sometimes you have to do crappy things in life to get where you want to be.
Anyone doing all that isn't going to have good grades.
Based on feeding just yourself, anyone can live on a minimum wage.
Barely. Even if someone plans to save their money for two years straight so they can move, one hospital visit or car accident ends everything.
It's not because of their inherent race but no one can deny that say German people are more productive and efficient than say American people as a whole or that Koreans have a better work ethic than English people.
I tend to avoid generalizations like that.
open mind
08/03/08, 07:47 PM
Not really sure why I said tbh. Basically I've just seen/heard people cite statistics that reservations are the poorest areas in the country.
it's not much suprise that they aren't bastions of economic prosperity really, the government picked the land reservations take up because it was worst they could possibly find.
x togepi x
08/03/08, 07:49 PM
Well while I usually oppose mass government non optional programs I am completely for an NHS.
and this would help things, but right now it doesn't exist here, which is one barrier to the type of upward mobility that you're preaching people should take advantage of.
open mind
08/03/08, 07:50 PM
Well while I usually oppose mass government non optional programs I am completely for an NHS.
being for something that people don't have doesn't change the present realities of economic hardship.
thespearkid
08/03/08, 07:51 PM
Who says you have to have a car? I don't, because I can't afford it. I get buses and trains and walk everywhere.
I don't expect the government to provide me with one. If I can't afford it that's my problem and if I want one I need to get a better job, get my degree and what not.
My town has no bus or train system. If my car broke down, I'd have no choice but to get it fixed. Those last two sentences are a bit of a paradox. It's like saying if you want more money, you need to have more money. Getting a degree isn't free and without a car, your choices of where to work would be very limited. You grew up in a well-off lifestyle and that's great for you but not everyone comes from that and getting out of it is not as easy as you think it is. You've never had to do it so don't make assumptions about the people who struggle.
x togepi x
08/03/08, 07:52 PM
Is Obama still promising it?
i don't know, but i doubt it will go through. the republicans will probably still have enough members in congress to filibuster it, especially if the democrats continue their policy of trying to get "blue dog" conservative democrats to fill certain seats.
thespearkid
08/03/08, 07:53 PM
Is Obama still promising it?
I don't think he ever actually promised it.
doubletrue
08/03/08, 08:19 PM
Not very much because my parents are reasonably well of, much more so after they divorced than before and because I have chosen never to become involved in drugs, criminal activity or other badthings.
But still, I work a part time where I work hard, I do well at school and university because I study hard etc.. There is nothing I have achieved in my life that anyone living in the UK right now couldn't have achieved had they put the effort in.
i completely agree with you. this issue leads to no accountability for many minorities. they would rather chalk everything up to racism than to the possibility that they just didn't work hard enough. and often times, they are told so much that no matter how hard they work, they won't acheive the same as whites...that can keep them from ever trying which is sad. i have had many black and hispanic friends tell me it was pointless for them to try hard in high school or to go to college because it would still lead to the same jobs as if they didn't try. it's a shame.
x togepi x
08/03/08, 08:43 PM
i completely agree with you. this issue leads to no accountability for many minorities. they would rather chalk everything up to racism than to the possibility that they just didn't work hard enough. and often times, they are told so much that no matter how hard they work, they won't acheive the same as whites...that can keep them from ever trying which is sad. i have had many black and hispanic friends tell me it was pointless for them to try hard in high school or to go to college because it would still lead to the same jobs as if they didn't try. it's a shame.
ah yes, because you have met some lazy minorities, that must make all minorities lazy.
racist post is racist.
it's not much suprise that they aren't bastions of economic prosperity really, the government picked the land reservations take up because it was worst they could possibly find.
Yeah, and the only jobs in those areas are usually governmental ones, as its the only source of cash inflow. The whole "casino" thing is kind of false stereotype, as in most cases even if there is a profitable one, only a small amount of the population gets any money from it.
BlinkinDuke
08/03/08, 09:01 PM
My town has no bus or train system. If my car broke down, I'd have no choice but to get it fixed. Those last two sentences are a bit of a paradox. It's like saying if you want more money, you need to have more money. Getting a degree isn't free and without a car, your choices of where to work would be very limited. You grew up in a well-off lifestyle and that's great for you but not everyone comes from that and getting out of it is not as easy as you think it is. You've never had to do it so don't make assumptions about the people who struggle.
Last time I checked Charlotte wasn't exactly a hole in the road town. I mean no buses, no trains, and no libraries? I grew up in a poor, black neighborhood in LA and we even had a library. Its not as tough as you're making it out to be for blacks to succeed, although not as easy as lunchforsky thinks it is (and its also from a white kid's perspective).
thespearkid
08/03/08, 09:03 PM
Last time I checked Charlotte wasn't exactly a hole in the road town. I mean no buses, no trains, and no libraries? I grew up in a poor, black neighborhood in LA and we even had a library. Its not as tough as you're making it out to be for blacks to succeed, although not as easy as lunchforsky thinks it is (and its also from a white kid's perspective).
I don't actually live in Charlotte yet. I'm moving there in two weeks for college.
BlinkinDuke
08/03/08, 09:04 PM
Yeah, and the only jobs in those areas are usually governmental ones, as its the only source of cash inflow. The whole "casino" thing is kind of false stereotype, as in most cases even if there is a profitable one, only a small amount of the population gets any money from it.
Isn't it anyone who is actively involved in the tribe gets any profits from the casino operation?
doubletrue
08/03/08, 09:05 PM
ah yes, because you have met some lazy minorities, that must make all minorities lazy.
racist post is racist.
i said "many" minorities, not just minorities. you don't even know me, so you take one post that says "many minorities feel like it is pointless to try hard in life because of what they are told" as racist??? i didn't say all minorities are lazy. if you don't think many minorites are told and therefore feel that working hard (college, staying out of trouble, etc.) will get them nowhere in life, then you are crazy.
Isn't it anyone who is actively involved in the tribe gets any profits from the casino operation?
Depends on the setup. I've heard that it does work well in some cases, but there are many where it doesn't work that way.
thespearkid
08/03/08, 09:07 PM
i said "many" minorities, not just minorities. you don't even know me, so you take one post that says "many minorities feel like it is pointless to try hard in life because of what they are told" as racist??? i didn't say all minorities are lazy. if you don't think many minorites are told and therefore feel that working hard (college, staying out of trouble, etc.) will get them nowhere in life, then you are crazy.
Your post was kind of racist, dude.
x togepi x
08/03/08, 09:08 PM
i said "many" minorities, not just minorities. you don't even know me, so you take one post that says "many minorities feel like it is pointless to try hard in life because of what they are told" as racist??? i didn't say all minorities are lazy. if you don't think many minorites are told and therefore feel that working hard (college, staying out of trouble, etc.) will get them nowhere in life, then you are crazy.
you enter a discussion about the cycle of poverty and you try to export your personal experiences regarding a few minorities onto a wider range of people. i'm sorry, but it doesn't work like that. i don't think many people just sit around and go "oh shit, i'm black. they won't let me in college, i'll just sit around and do nothing so i fucking starve to death". that's a stereotype.
even if someone isn't accomplishing near their potential, you can't prove that they're not working as hard as they can unless you actually exist in their world.
open mind
08/03/08, 09:19 PM
Isn't it anyone who is actively involved in the tribe gets any profits from the casino operation?
in many cases it's mostly casino management and their immediate family who reap the benefits.
doubletrue
08/03/08, 09:25 PM
you enter a discussion about the cycle of poverty and you try to export your personal experiences regarding a few minorities onto a wider range of people. i'm sorry, but it doesn't work like that. i don't think many people just sit around and go "oh shit, i'm black. they won't let me in college, i'll just sit around and do nothing so i fucking starve to death". that's a stereotype.
even if someone isn't accomplishing near their potential, you can't prove that they're not working as hard as they can unless you actually exist in their world.
i see your point. but if you think giving money to a group of people for the wrongs done against their ancestors helps the issue of racism or poverty, you are wrong. what did they do to deserve it? absolutely nothing. sure, their ancestors deserved the money. not a group of people living 150+ years after slavery ended in the United States.
and if the U.S. does give out these reparations, who is going to pay for that? what did i personally do to warrent me picking up the tab for this?
x togepi x
08/03/08, 09:35 PM
i see your point. but if you think giving money to a group of people for the wrongs done against their ancestors helps the issue of racism or poverty, you are wrong. what did they do to deserve it? absolutely nothing. sure, their ancestors deserved the money. not a group of people living 150+ years after slavery ended in the United States.
and if the U.S. does give out these reparations, who is going to pay for that? what did i personally do to warrent me picking up the tab for this?
most proponents of reparations generally claim it's for both slavery and jim crow-era laws, meaning that people still are living with the ramifications
nor do reparations necessarily have to be cash.
Yeah like a homeland. :idea:
x togepi x
08/03/08, 10:48 PM
oh dude, you're so edgy and witty
thespearkid
08/05/08, 11:51 AM
Yeah like a homeland. :idea:
Oh. Wow.
Love As Arson
08/07/08, 03:33 PM
Reparations should come in the form of social programs, so that we can help erase the trends caused by a racist social structure.
HashHolly
08/07/08, 03:39 PM
Is Obama still promising it?
obama is against reperations
mattmatumbo
08/09/08, 09:16 AM
i know that if you live on the navajo reservation all of your life (and you're 100% navajo) and graduate high school, you get your choice of a chevy or a ford from the government.
Does anyone know how slavery worked? You see black men in Africa, sold other black men in exchange for goods brought by white men. This should be taken up in Africa. NOT AMERICA. Isn't affirmative action enough reparation anyway?
thespearkid
08/10/08, 09:35 PM
Does anyone know how slavery worked? You see black men in Africa, sold other black men in exchange for goods brought by white men. This should be taken up in Africa. NOT AMERICA. Isn't affirmative action enough reparation anyway?
So if someone offered to sell you drugs, it wouldn't be your fault if you bought them? Your point is idiotic and irrelevant.
Broken Parachute
08/14/08, 11:25 AM
a step in the right direction
I think it's a step in the right direction
but it's a step in the right direction.What direction is this though? What exactly are you looking for?
thespearkid
08/14/08, 12:51 PM
What direction is this though? What exactly are you looking for?
Personally, I hope someday in the distant future we'll live in a country that isn't so racially divided. After our generation of blacks dies, the history books are still going to show the reparations (if we get them) and that'll help future generations hopefully move past it. [/hippie dream]
Broken Parachute
08/14/08, 02:57 PM
Personally, I hope someday in the distant future we'll live in a country that isn't so racially divided. After our generation of blacks dies, the history books are still going to show the reparations (if we get them) and that'll help future generations hopefully move past it. [/hippie dream]I don't think that will improve the division honestly. Actually, it will hurt the gap. Do you honestly think the future generation of white supremacists are going to look at those reparations and be OK with it? That'll just exacerbate their hateful feelings if anything.
thespearkid
08/14/08, 04:20 PM
I don't think that will improve the division honestly. Actually, it will hurt the gap. Do you honestly think the future generation of white supremacists are going to look at those reparations and be OK with it? That'll just exacerbate their hateful feelings if anything.
Either way, white supremacists are going to hate minorities. Sound-minded people will be able to benefit from it.
So if someone offered to sell you drugs, it wouldn't be your fault if you bought them? Your point is idiotic and irrelevant.
No the point is that it was not wrong to do at the time and if anyone is to be blamed for slavery it is in fact the Africans that enslaved the people to begin with.
Personally, I hope someday in the distant future we'll live in a country that isn't so racially divided. After our generation of blacks dies, the history books are still going to show the reparations (if we get them) and that'll help future generations hopefully move past it. [/hippie dream]
Isn't the best way to move past it just to get over it. Asking for reparations just continues to create a divide. The fact that affirmative action gets minorities and women advancement in the work place even if they are a weaker candidate for a job should be enough repayment. Of course if you throw in all of the welfare for everyone pretty much everyone on that should be considered paid in full. Free meals off of other people sounds like repayment for whatever you've endured or your ancestors have endured whether you are black, white, asian, or whatever.
open mind
08/14/08, 05:50 PM
No the point is that it was not wrong to do at the time and if anyone is to be blamed for slavery it is in fact the Africans that enslaved the people to begin with.
slavery has always been wrong.
it takes two to tango.
open mind
08/14/08, 05:53 PM
Isn't the best way to move past it just to get over it. Asking for reparations just continues to create a divide. The fact that affirmative action gets minorities and women advancement in the work place even if they are a weaker candidate for a job should be enough repayment. Of course if you throw in all of the welfare for everyone pretty much everyone on that should be considered paid in full. Free meals off of other people sounds like repayment for whatever you've endured or your ancestors have endured whether you are black, white, asian, or whatever.
no, ignoring the past isn't a good way of dealing with things.
affirmative action and welfare are not programs designed to make reparations.......and don't take the rather racist attitude that all black people are on welfare or have benefitted from affirmative action.
I thought affirmative action was put in place to counter past effects of racism and discrimination
thespearkid
08/14/08, 09:18 PM
No the point is that it was not wrong to do at the time and if anyone is to be blamed for slavery it is in fact the Africans that enslaved the people to begin with.
Slavery has always been wrong. I don't know why people like you love to throw the whole, "Africans sold other Africans" argument up so much. Africans didn't travel to America and say, "Hey! Want some slaves?" White people were already capturing Africans before other Africans started to sell them.
Isn't the best way to move past it just to get over it. Asking for reparations just continues to create a divide. The fact that affirmative action gets minorities and women advancement in the work place even if they are a weaker candidate for a job should be enough repayment. Of course if you throw in all of the welfare for everyone pretty much everyone on that should be considered paid in full. Free meals off of other people sounds like repayment for whatever you've endured or your ancestors have endured whether you are black, white, asian, or whatever.
I'm so sick of people thinking affirmative action gives perks to people who are undeserving. That's not the way it works. It just means if a company has to hire 50 qualified people, a certain percentage have to be minorities. There are no "weaker candidates" taking jobs from white people. Besides, whites already control the government and the money. I don't see anything wrong with helping minorities get jobs.
Slavery has always been wrong. I don't know why people like you love to throw the whole, "Africans sold other Africans" argument up so much. Africans didn't travel to America and say, "Hey! Want some slaves?" White people were already capturing Africans before other Africans started to sell them.
I'm so sick of people thinking affirmative action gives perks to people who are undeserving. That's not the way it works. It just means if a company has to hire 50 qualified people, a certain percentage have to be minorities. There are no "weaker candidates" taking jobs from white people. Besides, whites already control the government and the money. I don't see anything wrong with helping minorities get jobs.
I'm so sick of African Americans complaining about slavery when Jews have been persecuted far worse. I don't go around hearing Jews say you've disrupted my family and now my daddy is absent because of slavery.
no, ignoring the past isn't a good way of dealing with things.
affirmative action and welfare are not programs designed to make reparations.......and don't take the rather racist attitude that all black people are on welfare or have benefitted from affirmative action.
I knew someone would call me a racist. That's laughable especially if you read that post again. I never said all black people are on welfare or have benefited from welfare, because we all know that not all black people work or need to be on welfare. Of course you're a liberal so you'd have to pin racism on me because I'm not in favor of reparations, welfare, or affirmative action.
captainhampton
08/15/08, 10:03 PM
I'm so sick of people thinking affirmative action gives perks to people who are undeserving. That's not the way it works. It just means if a company has to hire 50 qualified people, a certain percentage have to be minorities. There are no "weaker candidates" taking jobs from white people. Besides, whites already control the government and the money. I don't see anything wrong with helping minorities get jobs.
no the company should hire the best 50 qualified. there shouldn't be a system where a certain percentage have to be minorities. If you do not take the best qualified because you have to meet some certain percentage of minorities, you technically are taking weaker candidates.
open mind
08/15/08, 11:02 PM
I knew someone would call me a racist. That's laughable especially if you read that post again. I never said all black people are on welfare or have benefited from welfare, because we all know that not all black people work or need to be on welfare. Of course you're a liberal so you'd have to pin racism on me because I'm not in favor of reparations, welfare, or affirmative action.
i said you took a racist attitude.
your post inferred that all black people are on welfare or have benefitted from affirmative action, because you act like those programs are somehow the same as reparations......ignoring the fact that not all black people have used those programs.
open mind
08/15/08, 11:05 PM
no the company should hire the best 50 qualified. there shouldn't be a system where a certain percentage have to be minorities. If you do not take the best qualified because you have to meet some certain percentage of minorities, you technically are taking weaker candidates.
it's not like there aren't qualified minorities out there.
thespearkid
08/16/08, 04:45 AM
I'm so sick of African Americans complaining about slavery when Jews have been persecuted far worse. I don't go around hearing Jews say you've disrupted my family and now my daddy is absent because of slavery.
Hahaha. Dude, the Jews were enslaved in EGYPT and GERMANY. We're talking about the United States here. But since you seem so desperate to bring up this completely irrelevant point, maybe you should know that the Jews got reparations for their slave labor during WWII. Will you at least try to see a different side of things instead of being so stubbornly stuck to your own opinions?
thespearkid
08/16/08, 04:52 AM
no the company should hire the best 50 qualified. there shouldn't be a system where a certain percentage have to be minorities. If you do not take the best qualified because you have to meet some certain percentage of minorities, you technically are taking weaker candidates.
There are no weak candidates who have jobs/scholarships thanks to affirmative action. That's a myth. Quite frankly, it's insulting to the people who have had to work their ass off for that job. Look at it this way. Most companies fill only their minimum requirements for affirmative action so white people still have a much higher chance at getting a job than a minority candidate because if a town has ten companies, each requiring that at least one board member be a minority, than all the educated minorities in that town have to compete for TEN jobs while the whites have plenty to choose from. If you just put yourself into another person's shoes, you guys could understand this but you're so stuck in your own opinions (which are invalid on the subject being that you haven't lived through any of it) that you can't, for one second, think about what it might be like to live on the other side of the fence.
captainhampton
08/16/08, 06:46 AM
it's not like there aren't qualified minorities out there.
when did i say that wasn't the case?
captainhampton
08/16/08, 06:55 AM
There are no weak candidates who have jobs/scholarships thanks to affirmative action. That's a myth. Quite frankly, it's insulting to the people who have had to work their ass off for that job. Look at it this way. Most companies fill only their minimum requirements for affirmative action so white people still have a much higher chance at getting a job than a minority candidate because if a town has ten companies, each requiring that at least one board member be a minority, than all the educated minorities in that town have to compete for TEN jobs while the whites have plenty to choose from. If you just put yourself into another person's shoes, you guys could understand this but you're so stuck in your own opinions (which are invalid on the subject being that you haven't lived through any of it) that you can't, for one second, think about what it might be like to live on the other side of the fence.
so, when people go into job interviews, there are no weak candidates because of affirmative action? what world are you living in? If a company is hiring the best 10 people for the job, don't you want the best 10? you can't just say well everyone is qualified for the job. that's just not the way it is. Some people are just more qualified to do the job. that's a fact. If the 10 best people for the job happen to be white, then they should get the jobs. that's not racist. If the best 10 are minorities, then they should be hired. There shouldn't be some quota of minorities you have to hit.
blinkingfoo
08/16/08, 07:39 AM
There are no weak candidates who have jobs/scholarships thanks to affirmative action. That's a myth. Quite frankly, it's insulting to the people who have had to work their ass off for that job. Look at it this way. Most companies fill only their minimum requirements for affirmative action so white people still have a much higher chance at getting a job than a minority candidate because if a town has ten companies, each requiring that at least one board member be a minority, than all the educated minorities in that town have to compete for TEN jobs while the whites have plenty to choose from. If you just put yourself into another person's shoes, you guys could understand this but you're so stuck in your own opinions (which are invalid on the subject being that you haven't lived through any of it) that you can't, for one second, think about what it might be like to live on the other side of the fence.
This is really not the case. I have a family friend who got a job over other candidates because they needed to fill the "hispanic" quota. There were other candidates who were white that were better suited than he was for that particular job but because of his ethnic background he received the job. Many years later he came across the records that showed that this was the case and he became really upset because he realized that he didn't get a job because merit but because of his background.
I think the fact that there are quotas for schools and many many scholarships at the school I attend and basically every school in the country that are only offered for black Americans is basically a "modern reparations". As a white male I have the hardest chance of getting a scholarship to attend a school regardless of my low income status. I have many friends who are considered minorities who attend the same school as I do who are far more wealthy than my family is but because of their race or ethnic background they receive at least a partial scholarship. Also, any scholarship that is now geared towards a white person is considered racist. I feel that reparations will just extend this racial divide. Are we not supposed to treat everyone as an equal? I just feel that until race or ethnic background is no longer a requirement, a boost, or a negative for school or a job this country will always have problems.
My other question for those that are considering reparations is...who would get the money? Would people who moved to the United States in the past 30 years receive it just because of the color of their skin? It just seems like their would be unbelievable problems.
thespearkid
08/16/08, 09:16 AM
so, when people go into job interviews, there are no weak candidates because of affirmative action? what world are you living in? If a company is hiring the best 10 people for the job, don't you want the best 10? you can't just say well everyone is qualified for the job. that's just not the way it is. Some people are just more qualified to do the job. that's a fact. If the 10 best people for the job happen to be white, then they should get the jobs. that's not racist. If the best 10 are minorities, then they should be hired. There shouldn't be some quota of minorities you have to hit.
This is really not the case. I have a family friend who got a job over other candidates because they needed to fill the "hispanic" quota. There were other candidates who were white that were better suited than he was for that particular job but because of his ethnic background he received the job. Many years later he came across the records that showed that this was the case and he became really upset because he realized that he didn't get a job because merit but because of his background.
I think the fact that there are quotas for schools and many many scholarships at the school I attend and basically every school in the country that are only offered for black Americans is basically a "modern reparations". As a white male I have the hardest chance of getting a scholarship to attend a school regardless of my low income status. I have many friends who are considered minorities who attend the same school as I do who are far more wealthy than my family is but because of their race or ethnic background they receive at least a partial scholarship. Also, any scholarship that is now geared towards a white person is considered racist. I feel that reparations will just extend this racial divide. Are we not supposed to treat everyone as an equal? I just feel that until race or ethnic background is no longer a requirement, a boost, or a negative for school or a job this country will always have problems.
My other question for those that are considering reparations is...who would get the money? Would people who moved to the United States in the past 30 years receive it just because of the color of their skin? It just seems like their would be unbelievable problems.
Did you read what I said at all? The amount of available jobs for caucasians compared to that for minorities is ridiculous. With affirmative action, whites have a 9/10 chance of getting the job while all the black candidates have compete for ONE job. It's just like white people to have 9/10ths of job and get pissed because they can't have all ten.
captainhampton
08/16/08, 09:34 AM
Did you read what I said at all? The amount of available jobs for caucasians compared to that for minorities is ridiculous. With affirmative action, whites have a 9/10 chance of getting the job while all the black candidates have compete for ONE job. It's just like white people to have 9/10ths of job and get pissed because they can't have all ten.
you don't get it. we don't want 9/10 or 10/10 jobs. we want THE BEST TEN to get the job. no matter what the race is. we get pissed when people who are not as qualified get the job over somone who is more qualified just so they can meet some affirmative action quota. this does happen. stop acting like we are these racists who only want white people getting the jobs. nowhere did either of us claim that whites are more qualified for jobs.
thespearkid
08/16/08, 09:49 AM
you don't get it. we don't want 9/10 or 10/10 jobs. we want THE BEST TEN to get the job. no matter what the race is. we get pissed when people who are not as qualified get the job over somone who is more qualified just so they can meet some affirmative action quota. this does happen. stop acting like we are these racists who only want white people getting the jobs. nowhere did either of us claim that whites are more qualified for jobs.
Because it's not in countries best interest to have an entire race of people live in poverty because of something the government instituted (slavery and Jim Crow). While blacks were given the worst jobs and facilities for generations, white families were free to excel and now that the Jim Crow era is over, blacks are so far behind that, without help, we'll never break the cycle of poverty. I understand how it can seem unfair but nothing's more unfair than Jim Crow/slavery.
thespearkid
08/16/08, 10:24 AM
I don't understand why it's okay for you want to treat different races differently yet it's not okay for a conservative.
Affirmative action is a racist policy.
Jim Crow is gone, slavery is gone.
A poor black man is in the same predicament as a poor white man. Now if you want to tackle poverty as a whole then that's a different thing but you're being the racist here not me. You're saying that on the basis of skin colour certain poor people need artificially helping out of poverty while the rest either don't or deserve less help purely on the basis of race. You are the one who is making skin colour the issue not us, you're the one who wants treat different races differently.
Jim Crow and slavery are gone by law but the black race is still in poverty because of them. It's really strange how white people set up the status quo that "race matters" and now when things like affirmative action and reparations show up, blacks are expected to "drop the issue" and "get over it". For 400 years we were held down and now, all we're getting is a little push towards economic equality, which is in the countries best interest. If a white person is just as qualified as a minority, 9 times out of 10, he'll get the job but if a minority is just as qualified as a white person, only 1 time out of 10 will he get the job. I'm not saying we should treat races differently and I'm not even saying I'm totally for the idea of reparations or affirmative action. I'm just saying I understand the viewpoint.
thespearkid
08/16/08, 10:55 AM
Poor people live in poverty because their ancestors did as far back of feudal times. Should we give working class people jobs over better middle class candidates?
If the working class people are just as qualified.
Who's this white people? What reason do you have for grouping me and old KKK members together other than race? Sounds racist to me. Since were whites the only group in history to think race matters? Most societies have thought race and nationality matters.
I'm talking about as far as white and blacks go in American society/history.
Best man for the job every time. Race is not an issue.
This is how it should be, I agree. But in our country, racism, sexism, and intolerance are still rampant and we can't necessarily count on employers to higher equally. Affirmative action makes it so that nobody can higher an entire work force full of any one race or gender so really, everyone benefits equally from affirmative action.
You can't be pro affirmative action and not want to treat races differently. The two are mutually exclusive.
Like I said in my post, I'm not totally for affirmative action but I understand why it's in place. If it were up to me, I'd try to come up with something a little different to help shorten the race gap but it does need to be shortened.
open mind
08/16/08, 08:22 PM
when did i say that wasn't the case?
your complaining that a small fraction of people that are hired must be of minority background gave me the impression that you think there aren't any qualified minorities out there.
Hahaha. Dude, the Jews were enslaved in EGYPT and GERMANY. We're talking about the United States here. But since you seem so desperate to bring up this completely irrelevant point, maybe you should know that the Jews got reparations for their slave labor during WWII. Will you at least try to see a different side of things instead of being so stubbornly stuck to your own opinions?
Haha, I just like saying that whenever I hear someone talk about slavery. In all seriousness, I do feel like affirmative action is a way of trying to repay the civil rights infringement of women and minorities. I also do not feel like I should have to pay for something that took place 100+ years ago. It's over. Why dwell on it?
I do appreciate you not bashing the heck out of me for once. That was rather surprising. I'm going to assume that at the time you either were high or just got laid... or maybe both? Anyway, that's just my thought on the matter. I don't really consider it a big issue so I could really care less.
As for open mind---please define racism because I'm failing to see how what I said was racist in anyway. As far as welfare is concerned I said whites. As far as affirmative action is concerned I included women. Apparently you have racism on the mind though, so maybe you should recheck the definition.
thespearkid
08/17/08, 03:54 PM
Haha, I just like saying that whenever I hear someone talk about slavery. In all seriousness, I do feel like affirmative action is a way of trying to repay the civil rights infringement of women and minorities. I also do not feel like I should have to pay for something that took place 100+ years ago. It's over. Why dwell on it?
I do appreciate you not bashing the heck out of me for once. That was rather surprising. I'm going to assume that at the time you either were high or just got laid... or maybe both? Anyway, that's just my thought on the matter. I don't really consider it a big issue so I could really care less.
Yes, slavery's over and that's a great thing but I see a lot of people here saying, "Why should I have to pay for something that happened 400 years ago?" Well, right now, blacks are still paying for it. Slavery and Jim Crow have crippled our race and everyone in America now knows that those eras were wrong but there's still an entire group of people suffering due to them.
open mind
08/18/08, 12:48 AM
Haha, I just like saying that whenever I hear someone talk about slavery. In all seriousness, I do feel like affirmative action is a way of trying to repay the civil rights infringement of women and minorities. I also do not feel like I should have to pay for something that took place 100+ years ago. It's over. Why dwell on it?
I do appreciate you not bashing the heck out of me for once. That was rather surprising. I'm going to assume that at the time you either were high or just got laid... or maybe both? Anyway, that's just my thought on the matter. I don't really consider it a big issue so I could really care less.
As for open mind---please define racism because I'm failing to see how what I said was racist in anyway. As far as welfare is concerned I said whites. As far as affirmative action is concerned I included women. Apparently you have racism on the mind though, so maybe you should recheck the definition.
reparations if they were made would be for every black person.......so saying affirmative action and welfare should count as reparations is akin to saying all black people are on welfare and have benefitted from affirmative action.
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