The Greatest Players in Franchise History

[Broken Parachute]

Baseball Tonight is doing a thing where they talk about the greatest player ever for a certain franchise, and then talk about the ten greatest players in that franchise's history. I figured this could be a good topic of discussion since we have so many Red Sox fans (that's who they were talking about tonight) and Yankee fans and teams with a lot of history. It's really, really tough to do, especially for teams which such a luscious history.

I guess you can do it for any sport? Originally it was done by Baseball Tonight so I thought we could do it for baseball only, but we'll do it for all sports. So basically:

Name the 10 greatest players [in your opinion] for your favorite team(s).

[kshtoinks12]

Lou Gehrig
Babe Ruth
Mariano Rivera
Mickey Mantle
Joe DiMaggio
Whitey Ford
Ron Guidry
Derek Jeter
Yogi Berra
Bill Dickey

[bigmike]

Tigers:

Hank Greenberg
Ty Cobb
Al Kaline
Alan Trammel
Lou Whitaker
Harry Heilmann
Norm Cash
Charlie Gerhinger
Hal Newhouswer
Sam Crawford

[ForlrnPerplxity]

Stan Musial
Albert Pujols
Bob Gibson
Rogers Hornsby
Lou Brock
Dizzy Dean
Red Schoendienst
Enos Slaughter
Ozzie Smith
Ted Simmons

[bigmike]

Lou Gehrig
Babe Ruth
Mariano Rivera
Mickey Mantle
Joe DiMaggio
Whitey Ford
Ron Guidry
Derek Jeter
Yogi Berra
Bill Dickey
Could not disagree with Mo Rivera being in the top 10 Yankees of all time. He's been dominant, but the Yankees have played 19614.2 innings since Rivera got to the Majors and he's pitched in 1000.1 of those innings, or 5.1%. I will NEVER be convinced that a player pitching in 5% of his teams innings ever should be among their best players or in the hall of fame. To me, they're like kickers/Punters in the NFL.

[looksthatkillbn]

Pete Rose
Johnny Bench
Joe Morgan
Tony Perez
Barry Larkin
Ted Kluzewski
Frank Robinson
Joe Nuxhall
Davey Concepcion
George Foster

this is obviously just for reds careers and meanings to the team and etc. or obviously there would be some differences in the list

[1moreandimfree]

Blazers

Clyde Drexler
Bill Walton
Terry Porter
Rasheed Wallace
Maurice Lucas
Brandon Roy
Geoff Petrie
Sabonis
Jerome Kersey
Greg Oden?

[startBBtoday]

red sox:
Ted Williams
Carl Yastrzemski
Roger Clemens
Manny Ramirez
Pedro Martinez
Cy Young
Wade Boggs
Jim Rice
Joe Cronin

number 10 is hard, it's either bobby doerr or babe ruth though, fisk is in the running as well.

[kshtoinks12]

Could not disagree with Mo Rivera being in the top 10 Yankees of all time. He's been dominant, but the Yankees have played 19614.2 innings since Rivera got to the Majors and he's pitched in 1000.1 of those innings, or 5.1%. I will NEVER be convinced that a player pitching in 5% of his teams innings ever should be among their best players or in the hall of fame. To me, they're like kickers/Punters in the NFL.you mean you couldn't agree?

I see where you're coming from...but those 1000 innings were some of the most important innings they've seen in the last 12-13 years. I wouldn't put a closer on that list unless he was the best closer to ever pitch.

[startBBtoday]

mariners:
Ken Griffey Jr.
Randy Johnson
Ichiro Suzuki
Edgar Martinez
Alex Rodriguez
Jay Buhner
Alvin Davis
Jamie Moyer
Mark Langston


once again, 10 is really hard to say, it's between king felix, bret boone, jim presley, harold reynolds and freddy garcia. i'll give it to felix.

[bigmike]

you mean you couldn't agree?

I see where you're coming from...but those 1000 innings were some of the most important innings they've seen in the last 12-13 years. I wouldn't put a closer on that list unless he was the best closer to ever pitch.
Yeah, sorry. I mean't "couldn't disagree more." I get that, but all those times he was closing games in the 9th, how many times did someone in the 6th, or the 7th, or the 8th save the game at a crucial spot while Mo came in and breezed through the 9th? I just think there's way too many variables that come into play.

[ForlrnPerplxity]

I realize that the Mariners haven't exactly been around forever, but Felix Hernandez hasn't even pitched 3 full years in the majors. This is really the first year he's truly broken out as an Ace.

[bigmike]

mariners:
Ken Griffey Jr.
Randy Johnson
Ichiro Suzuki
Edgar Martinez
Alex Rodriguez
Jay Buhner
Alvin Davis
Jamie Moyer
Mark Langston


once again, 10 is really hard to say, it's between king felix, bret boone, jim presley, harold reynolds and freddy garcia. i'll give it to felix.
Felix as one of the 10 best M's ever? What?

[ForlrnPerplxity]

Freddy Garcia. lol

[kshtoinks12]

Yeah, sorry. I mean't "couldn't disagree more." I get that, but all those times he was closing games in the 9th, how many times did someone in the 6th, or the 7th, or the 8th save the game at a crucial spot while Mo came in and breezed through the 9th? I just think there's way too many variables that come into play.
The value of a good closer id big these days. I see where you're coming from, but I couldn't leave Mo off the list.

[ForlrnPerplxity]

The value of a good closer id big these days. I see where you're coming from, but I couldn't leave Mo off the list.
The value of a good closer was a lot bigger when they used to go beyond 1 inning. Their value to a team is not as significant anymore with so many relievers in specific roles.

[bigmike]

The value of a good closer id big these days. I see where you're coming from, but I couldn't leave Mo off the list.
Yeah, I get your side. It's just my opinion. I personally am still iffy on closers even being in the HOF.

[ForlrnPerplxity]

Yeah, I get your side. It's just my opinion. I personally am still iffy on closers even being in the HOF.
I wouldn't go that far. Players like Hoffman and Rivera definitely deserve to be there.

[kshtoinks12]

The value of a good closer was a lot bigger when they used to go beyond 1 inning. Their value to a team is not as significant anymore with so many relievers in specific roles.
So would you say Goose Gossage > Mariano Rivera?
Yeah, I get your side. It's just my opinion. I personally am still iffy on closers even being in the HOF.Haha, tell that to the writers.

[bigmike]

I wouldn't go that far. Players like Hoffman and Rivera definitely deserve to be there.
Why should they be in there over dominant relievers who didn't get to close games for large chunks of their careers?

So would you say Goose Gossage > Mariano Rivera?
Haha, tell that to the writers.
Baseball Writers are dumb anyways. I just read an article from Drew Sharp for a Detroit newspaper that the Tigers should retire Pudge's number when he's done playing. Never mind that he played less than 5 years here.

Edit: Then again, most really dominant relievers become closers anyways, so i guess it's a moot point.

[AshesAshes]

Ill have to think about this top 2 for the Rockies would be Larry Walker/Todd Helton though.

[kshtoinks12]

What about the big cat?

[bigmike]

Ill have to think about this top 2 for the Rockies would be Larry Walker/Todd Helton though.
Andres Galarraga, Dante Bichette, Vinny Castilla.

[AshesAshes]

Andres Galarraga, Dante Bichette, Vinny Castilla.

I forgot all about Galarraga, he had some nasty years in Colorado.

Pedro Astacio was probably the best pitcher we ever had

[kshtoinks12]

I forgot all about Galarraga, he had some nasty years in Colorado.

Pedro Astacio was probably the best pitcher we ever had
Hahahah, his ERA was never under 5 for a season with the Rox.

[bigmike]

I forgot all about Galarraga, he had some nasty years in Colorado.

Pedro Astacio was probably the best pitcher we ever had
Yeah. If you're talking just pitchers, Aaron Cook probably has to be up there and Armando Reynoso, too. I love that John Tomson has the lowest career WHIP in rockies history at 1.408, haha.

In no order, I'd probably go:

Larry Walker
Todd Helton
Andres Galarraga
Dante Bichette
Vinny Castilla
Aaron Cook
Pedro Astacio
Ellis Burks
Matt Holliday
Jason Jennings?

It's a struggle to find a 10th. I like looking at newer franchises like the Marlins and Rockies since I've seen all of these guys play in my lifetime and there isn't so much history that the 10 best are pretty easy to draw up.

[AshesAshes]

Hahahah, his ERA was never under 5 for a season with the Rox.
Yea but they have never had a pitcher worth while he probably still holds a lot of team records. Cook is the best pitcher though now that I think about it. Francis/Cook probably shattered his records also

[livethesounds]

Astros

Jimmy Wynn
Nolan Ryan
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Lance Berkman
Roy Oswalt
Mike Scott
Jose Cruz
Roger Clemens
Cesar Cedeno

[startBBtoday]

Felix as one of the 10 best M's ever? What?


who would you put 10th? jim pressly? bret boone?

[bigmike]

Yea but they have never had a pitcher worth while he probably still holds a lot of team records. Cook is the best pitcher though now that I think about it. Francis/Cook probably shattered his records also
Nope. Pedro Astacio K'd 8.15 per 9 innings, no one else in Rockies history has K'd over 6.27 (Shawn Chacon, hahaha) for their Rockies career.

Here's their hitters record book (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/COL/leaders_bat.shtml) and their pitchers record book (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/COL/leaders_pitch.shtml).

[bigmike]

who would you put 10th? jim pressly? bret boone?
I looked and it was real hard to find someone who was very deserving, but roid's or not, Bret Boone had some great years there. I'd also look towards John Olerud who has the 7th best OPS in M's history (higher than Boone's and Ichiro's).

[startBBtoday]

I looked and it was real hard to find someone who was very deserving, but roid's or not, Bret Boone had some great years there. I'd also look towards John Olerud who has the 7th best OPS in M's history (higher than Boone's and Ichiro's).

olerud was good there, but he was only there less than a season more than felix and same with boone if you don't count his 92/93 seasons that would only detract from putting him as one of the best other than longevity on the m's

[startBBtoday]

i found a list of top 10 mariners that omits langston and puts sasaki and boone in there

[Chris M.]

Since the Red Sox were already done, I'll do some of my favourite teams from other sports.

Bruins:
Bobby Orr
Ray Bourque
Phil Esposito
Johnny Bucyk
Cam Neely
Gerry Cheevers
Milt Schmidt
Eddie Shore
Dit Clapper
Bill Cowley

Raptors:
Vince Carter
Chris Bosh
Antonio Davis
Damon Stoudamire
Marcus Camby
Morris Peterson
Alvin Williams
Tracy McGrady
Doug Christie
Jalen Rose

Honorable mention: The Junk Yard Dog

[TakingBackDowd]

Mets:

Gary Carter
Daryl Strawberry
Mike Piazza
Dwight Gooden
Tom Seaver
Howard Johnson
Rusty Staub
Tommy Agee
Jerry Koosman
Ed Kranepool

Others: Keith Hernandez, Ron Darling, Mookie Wilson, Cleon Jones, Bud Harrelson, Tug McGraw

any changes?

[StuGrimson]

I came up with 13 names and other than the obvious guys in Alomar / Delgado / Bell / Stieb / Halladay / Fernandez / Olerud the other guys are all a tossup. These are the other guys that came to mind

Shawn Green
Vernon Wells
Jesse Barfield
Joe Carter
Lloyd Moseby
Jimmy Key
Fred Mcgriff

[Chris M.]

Roberto Alomar?

[StuGrimson]

Shit I thought I put him there he is probably 1 or 1a with Carlos Delgado.

[FondestMemory]

roberto clemente
barry bonds
honus wagner
willie stargell
bill mazeroski
ralph kiner
doug drabeck
bobby bonilla
andy van slyke
jason kendall

[FondestMemory]

i was gonna try to do one for the steelers, but that's too damn hard. no way to narrow it down to 10.

[BuriedAlive]

Marlins:

Mike Lowell
Miguel Cabrera
Dontrelle Willis
Derrek Lee
Jeff Conine
Cliff Floyd
Gary Sheffield
Josh Beckett
AJ Burnett
Luis Castillo
Brad Penny

There are a few others that deserve consideration like Kevin Brown, Livan Hernandez, Bobby Bonilla, as well as Robb Nen and Antonio Alfonseca.

[Scott Weber]

Mariners:

Ken Griffey Jr.
Edgar Martinez
Randy Johnson
Alvin Davis
Ichiro Suzuki
A-Rod
Jay Buhner
Bret Boone
Jamie Moyer
Harold Reynolds

[startBBtoday]

Seahawks:

Steve Largent
Walter Jones
Shaun Alexander
Dave Krieg
Dave Brown
Jacob Green
Cortez Kennedy
Brian Blades
Eugene Robinson
Curt Warner

football is so hard, i figured i'd start with the team i like with less of a history

[Broken Parachute]

Mets:

Gary Carter
Daryl Strawberry
Mike Piazza
Dwight Gooden
Tom Seaver
Howard Johnson
Rusty Staub
Tommy Agee
Jerry Koosman
Ed Kranepool

Others: Keith Hernandez, Ron Darling, Mookie Wilson, Cleon Jones, Bud Harrelson, Tug McGraw

any changes?I like this list. I would throw Al Leiter on the Honorable Mentions list too.

[TakingBackDowd]

yeah he was good, but i don't think he deserves to be considered for that list. just my opinion.

[Broken Parachute]

NY Rangers

Mark Messier
Jean Ratelle
Eddie Giacomin
Mike Richter
Brian Leetch
Bill Cook
Rod Gilbert
Vic Hadfield
Harry Howell
Andy Bathgate

I'm waiting for the approval of Tim, haha.

[Broken Parachute]

yeah he was good, but i don't think he deserves to be considered for that list. just my opinion.I would, personally.

I would also switch Cleon Jones and Tommie Agee simply for the fact that Agee only played 5 seasons as a Met (two of them being good) where Cleon Jones played 13 years and spent 12 of them with the Mets.

[Broken Parachute]

red sox:
Ted Williams
Carl Yastrzemski
Roger Clemens
Manny Ramirez
Pedro Martinez
Cy Young
Wade Boggs
Jim Rice
Joe Cronin

number 10 is hard, it's either bobby doerr or babe ruth though, fisk is in the running as well.I think Tim Kurkjian's list was similar, but he made the argument that you shouldn't really put a player on the list for your franchise's greatest players if he only played a few years with the team or if he played the majority of his years with another team...regardless of numbers. So he left Carlton Fisk off and instead he put him on the White Sox top 10 list.

He also said he felt bad leaving Dwight Evans off the list, as well Jimmie Foxx because he played the best years of his career with the Philadelphia A's.

[Chris M.]

NY Rangers

Mark Messier
Jean Ratelle
Eddie Giacomin
Mike Richter
Brian Leetch
Bill Cook
Rod Gilbert
Vic Hadfield
Harry Howell
Andy Bathgate

I'm waiting for the approval of Tim, haha.

Brad Park might be included in a Rangers list as well.

[ForlrnPerplxity]

Yeah, I don't agree with adding a guy just because he played a few years on the team, while he played the majority of his career on another.

If so, I should just add Cy Young to the Cardinals list.

[startBBtoday]

I think Tim Kurkjian's list was similar, but he made the argument that you shouldn't really put a player on the list for your franchise's greatest players if he only played a few years with the team or if he played the majority of his years with another team...regardless of numbers. So he left Carlton Fisk off and instead he put him on the White Sox top 10 list.

He also said he felt bad leaving Dwight Evans off the list, as well Jimmie Foxx because he played the best years of his career with the Philadelphia A's.

i'd put bobby doerr on there before dewey.

[Broken Parachute]

Brad Park might be included in a Rangers list as well.I thought about it, but I went with Bathgate because Park only played 6 and a half seasons with the Rangers. The fact that Andy Bathgate played 10 solid seasons put it over the top for me. I wanted to put Adam Graves on the list too, but reluctantly I left him off.

[FondestMemory]

alright, i'm gonna try the steelers. narrowing it down to 10 is damn hard though.

in no special order:

mel blount
hines ward
troy polamalu
jerome bettis
terry bradshaw
jack lambert
franco harris
rod woodson
lynn swann
john stallworth

honorable mention: ernie statner, rocky bleier, dermonti dawson, livon kirkland, carnell lake, greg lloyd, jason gildon, lc greenwood, jack ham, kevin greene, joey porter, big ben.

i'll admit, a lot of the honorable mention are just steelers that i really really liked.

[Killadelphia]

Phillies

Grover Cleveland Alexander
Steve Carlton
Robin Roberts
Dick Allen
Richie Ashburn
Mike Schmidt
Pete Rose
Chuck Klein
Nap Lajoie
Ryan Howard

[Killadelphia]

Flyers

Bobby Clarke
Bill Barber
Brian Propp
Rick MacLeish
Eric Lindros
Tim Kerr
Mark Howe
Bernie Parent
Reggie Leach
Ron Hextall

[GiggsOho]

Redskins

John Riggins
Art Monk
Sonny Jurgensen
Dexter Manley
Darrell Green
Russ Grimm
Joe Jacoby
Gary Clark
Doug Willams
Joe Theismann

(no certain order)

[Scott Weber]

Seahawks:

Steve Largent
Dave Brown
Shaun Alexander (fuck you)
Curt Warner
Cortez Kennedy
Jacob Green
Walter Jones
Matt Hasselbeck
Jim Zorn
Brian Blades

[Killadelphia]

Redskins

John Riggins
Art Monk
Sonny Jurgensen
Dexter Manley
Darrell Green
Russ Grimm
Joe Jacoby
Gary Clark
Doug Willams
Joe Theismann

(no certain order)

no congressman heath shuler?

[GiggsOho]

no congressman heath shuler?

There is really nothing else I can say besides, *sigh* and "shut the fuck up."

And then you go "Patrick Ramsey", and i say "STFU" again, and then you say "Danny Wuerffel" and i say it again, and then i just facepalm myself because it's been an awful decade for Redskins football.

[GiggsOho]

Seahawks:

Steve Largent
Dave Brown
Shaun Alexander (fuck you)
Curt Warner
Cortez Kennedy
Jacob Green
Walter Jones
Matt Hasselbeck
Jim Zorn
Brian Blades


you forgot someone

http://www.brian-bosworth.biographyinfo.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/brian-bosworth.jpg

[Spicoli hey bud]

Could not disagree with Mo Rivera being in the top 10 Yankees of all time. He's been dominant, but the Yankees have played 19614.2 innings since Rivera got to the Majors and he's pitched in 1000.1 of those innings, or 5.1%. I will NEVER be convinced that a player pitching in 5% of his teams innings ever should be among their best players or in the hall of fame. To me, they're like kickers/Punters in the NFL.
While your argument is somewhat believable, this last statement is not a fair comparison. Closers are pitchers. They essentially do the same thing as the starters and other relievers (pitching). Kicking is a specialized position. They can't do anything else but kick. Although most relievers tend to have their cemented roles (ie: closing) and may not be able to extend their arms over a full game like starters, they still perform the same task as the other pitchers on the team.

[S/T]

Marlins:

Mike Lowell
Miguel Cabrera
Dontrelle Willis
Derek Lee
Jeff Conine
Cliff Floyd
Gary Sheffield
Josh Beckett
AJ Burnett
Luis Castillo
Brad Penny

There are a few others that deserve consideration like Kevin Brown, Livan Hernandez, Bobby Bonilla, as well as Robb Nen and Antonio Alfonseca.

I feel like Ivan should at least get consideration. I know he was only there a year, but the franchise hasn't been around that long, and the impact he had on that season ienough for me.

Of course I can also see the argument for exclusion based solely on the fact that he was only there a year.

[BuriedAlive]

I feel like Ivan should at least get consideration. I know he was only there a year, but the franchise hasn't been around that long, and the impact he had on that season ienough for me.

Of course I can also see the argument for exclusion based solely on the fact that he was only there a year.

I excluded anyone who didn't play at least three years with the franchise (in the top ten). Pudge does deserve consideration, I actually pretty much forgot about him while making the list. I was going to go back and add him to consideration, but I got sidetracked hah.

[S/T]

Ah, yeah, that's what I figured. ha Nice list, btw.

[Momo32T]

Dodgers:

Sandy Koufax
Don Drysdale
Duke Snider
Jackie Robinson
Mike Piazza
Roy Campanella
Don Sutton
Pee Wee Reese
Orel Hershiser
Steve Garvey

[we are cured]

NY Rangers

Mark Messier
Jean Ratelle
Eddie Giacomin
Mike Richter
Brian Leetch
Bill Cook
Rod Gilbert
Vic Hadfield
Harry Howell
Andy Bathgate

I'm waiting for the approval of Tim, haha.

i didn't bother to read the thread for qualifications but that looks pretty good. actually ranking them from 1-10 is tough but you have to think that leetch, howell, and messier are in the top 3.

brad park easily makes that list too, and i think you have to include lester patrick because he pulled that whole player-coach-gm thing. i'd probably take off hadfield but after that i don't know.

[BuriedAlive]

Jaguars:

Jimmy Smith
Fred Taylor
Mark Brunell
Tony Boselli
Donovon Darius
Keenan McCardell
Mike Peterson
Kyle Brady
Kevin Hardy
John Henderson

Honorable Mention: Aaron Beasley, Rashean Mathis, Tony Brackens, Byron Leftwich, Marcus Stroud, Maurice Jones-Drew.

[anamericangod]

Bills:

OJ Simpson
Jim Kelly
Thurman Thomas
Bruce Smith
Andre Reed
Steve Tasker
Billy Shaw
James Lofton
Cornelius Bennett
Darryl Talley

[BuriedAlive]

Heat:

Alonzo Mourning
Tim Hardaway
Glen Rice
Grant Long
Dwayne Wade
Eddie Jones
Rony Seikaly
Bimbo Coles
Keith Askins
Udonis Haslem

Very thin list. I don't really have honorable mentions. People like Shaq, Jamaal Mashburn, Lamar Odom, Caron Butler, P.J. Brown, Jason Williams, Harold "Mini Mike" Miner, Ricky Davis, Gary Payton and any other traveler I feel just don't count or would be better suited on another teams list (or no list for some).

[Spicoli hey bud]

Knicks

Earl Monroe
Bill Bradley
Walt FRazier
Dave DeBusschere
Willis Reed
Dick McGuire
Dick Barnett
Patrick Ewing
Bernard King
Mark Jackson

Yankees

Gehrig
Mantle
Ruth
DiMaggio
Whitey ford
ARod
Jeter
Yogi
MAttingly
Mo

There are a few other pitchers from way back when that might deserve this too.

[we are cured]

Mets:

Gary Carter
Daryl Strawberry
Mike Piazza
Dwight Gooden
Tom Seaver
Howard Johnson
Rusty Staub
Tommy Agee
Jerry Koosman
Ed Kranepool

Others: Keith Hernandez, Ron Darling, Mookie Wilson, Cleon Jones, Bud Harrelson, Tug McGraw

any changes?

i'd replace hojo with keith hernandez, johnson had a number of big HR seasons but he was a career .249 hitter. the 91 season was pretty impressive though, 38 HR's, .259, 117 RBI, 30 2B, 30 SB

[bigmike]

While your argument is somewhat believable, this last statement is not a fair comparison. Closers are pitchers. They essentially do the same thing as the starters and other relievers (pitching). Kicking is a specialized position. They can't do anything else but kick. Although most relievers tend to have their cemented roles (ie: closing) and may not be able to extend their arms over a full game like starters, they still perform the same task as the other pitchers on the team.
I disagree since I meant it in the fact that closers are a specialized faction of pitchers. If you want to take kickers/punters and replace it with some other specialized position, go ahead.

[Spicoli hey bud]

I disagree since I meant it in the fact that closers are a specialized faction of pitchers. If you want to take kickers/punters and replace it with some other specialized position, go ahead.
There are so many closers out there that began their careers as starters. How many kickers began their career as anything else in the NFL/college?

I think it's more fair to include a closer on these lists than a kicker. That's all I'm getting at.

[bigmike]

There are so many closers out there that began their careers as starters. How many kickers began their career as anything else in the NFL/college?

I think it's more fair to include a closer on these lists than a kicker. That's all I'm getting at.
I understand your point and I agree with it partly. My point isn't that closers/kickers both started in different roles, but that they're both very specialized positions within their sports that are overblown in their praise and criticism.

[Scott Weber]

I think the closer role is vastly overblown but the concept of having the mental toughness to handle the final 3 outs stress is not something everyone can handle, therefore closers are more valuable than other relief pitchers because the potential impact of each at bat is so much greater, especially when on the road and there is no chance for your team to come back from any lead you blow.

[pand75]

Oilers:

Wayne Gretzky
Mark Messier
Jari Kurri
Grant Fuhr
Paul Coffey
Glenn Anderson
Bill Ranford
Ryan Smyth
Curtis Joseph
Esa Tikkanen

[bigmike]

I think the closer role is vastly overblown but the concept of having the mental toughness to handle the final 3 outs stress is not something everyone can handle, therefore closers are more valuable than other relief pitchers because the potential impact of each at bat is so much greater, especially when on the road and there is no chance for your team to come back from any lead you blow.
Is it tougher to come into the 9th on the road to start the inning or coming in the 8th with 2 on and the go-ahead run at the plate? I think the pressure is just as great in other innings. I get what you're saying, though.

[ForlrnPerplxity]

Aaron Miles
David Eckstein
Bo Hart
Travis Smith

I need 6 more. Help me out, Mike.

[bigmike]

Aaron Miles
David Eckstein
Bo Hart
Travis Smith

I need 6 more. Help me out, Mike.
Bud Smith.

[ForlrnPerplxity]

Bud Smith.
Yeah, I guess you could lump him in there.

I'd say Stubby Clapp too, but I'm not sure if you know who that is.

[Killadelphia]

Bud Smith.

The best piece of the Scott Rolen trade. Never even pitched for us.

[Spicoli hey bud]

I understand your point and I agree with it partly. My point isn't that closers/kickers both started in different roles, but that they're both very specialized positions within their sports that are overblown in their praise and criticism.
Yup. I think I'll meet you halfway as well. Your everyday typical closers are overblown with their critiques.

When it comes to the best of the best though, I think the praise is warranted. (Hoffman, Mo, Gossage, Smith)...

Not to mention Eckersley who was a starter for half of his career.

[ForlrnPerplxity]

The best piece of the Scott Rolen trade. Never even pitched for us.
haha, such a terrible trade for the Phillies. Rolen for Timlin, Polanco, and Smith. I remember it being between the Cardinals and Reds. Rolen quickly became my favorite player.

Bud Smith's ceiling was a #5 starter at best until the injuries hit. That no-hitter was damn fun to watch, though.

[bigmike]

Yup. I think I'll meet you halfway as well. Your everyday typical closers are overblown with their critiques.

When it comes to the best of the best though, I think the praise is warranted. (Hoffman, Mo, Gossage, Smith)...

Not to mention Eckersley who was a starter for half of his career.
I'm glad we've come to this compromise. To be honest, I agree with you more then I let on.
haha, such a terrible trade for the Phillies. Rolen for Timlin, Polanco, and Smith. I remember it being between the Cardinals and Reds. Rolen quickly became my favorite player.

Bud Smith's ceiling was a #5 starter at best until the injuries hit. That no-hitter was damn fun to watch, though.
You know what is even better? That the Phils then turned Polanco into Ugueth Urbina who then went all pyro/machette on some guys and barely pitched for them, too.

[ForlrnPerplxity]

You know what is even better? That the Phils then turned Polanco into Ugueth Urbina who then went all pyro/machette on some guys and barely pitched for them, too.
Oh man. I totally forgot about that. Imagine Urbina making a comeback. He could shut down hitters just based on the fact that they'd be scared he would chop them up to bits.

[startBBtoday]

Seahawks:

Steve Largent
Dave Brown
Shaun Alexander (fuck you)
Curt Warner
Cortez Kennedy
Jacob Green
Walter Jones
Matt Hasselbeck
Jim Zorn
Brian Blades

LOL at jim zorn on there and dave krieg not, please justify that one.

[Scott Weber]

Is it tougher to come into the 9th on the road to start the inning or coming in the 8th with 2 on and the go-ahead run at the plate? I think the pressure is just as great in other innings. I get what you're saying, though.
But a situational lefty or whoever comes in during the 8th inning isn't always a high-leverage guy. A closer almost always is, unless you're just getting work in. And there is something special about the 9th inning and that last ditch chance to score runs.

[Scott Weber]

LOL at jim zorn on there and dave krieg not, please justify that one.
i can't. krieg was better. I had him on at the end and realized I had 11 and just took him off.

[startBBtoday]

i can't. krieg was better. I had him on at the end and realized I had 11 and just took him off.

i respect that you can admit that, but i have no idea why you included zorn. i'd put krieg and hasselbeck at a pretty even keel at this point if hasselbeck keeps going at this pace.

[Scott Weber]

i respect that you can admit that, but i have no idea why you included zorn. i'd put krieg and hasselbeck at a pretty even keel at this point if hasselbeck keeps going at this pace.
hasselbeck is twice the QB krieg was. krieg wasn't that great. he fumbled like crazy. zorn meant a shitload to this franchise, there's a reason he's in the ring of honor.

[startBBtoday]

hasselbeck is twice the QB krieg was. krieg wasn't that great. he fumbled like crazy. zorn meant a shitload to this franchise, there's a reason he's in the ring of honor.

simply not true, hasselbeck has better numbers thus far, but krieg has a higher td% and his his offensive line was horrible. there was a reason krieg got sacked as much as he did. i'd say hasselbeck has been better, but there is absolutely nothing to justify that hasselbeck is twice the quarterback krieg was, you're posting like you don't know what you're talking about.

also, ok, zorn was the first quarterback of the franchise, he never took them to the playoffs and he cracked an 80 in quarterback rating once. for the most part zorn was a very mediocre quarterback with one year of being halfway decent and four of being dismal. this isn't a thread about what meant most to a franchise, it's the greatest players. you don't see nigel wilson and david neid on the greatest marlins and rockies list despite the fact that they were the first players in those franchise's historys. you wouldn't include diego segui as one of the mariners just because he started the first game. i think it's pretty insane how highly jim zorn is regarded in seattle seahawks history.

[Scott Weber]

simply not true, hasselbeck has better numbers thus far, but krieg has a higher td% and his his offensive line was horrible. there was a reason krieg got sacked as much as he did. i'd say hasselbeck has been better, but there is absolutely nothing to justify that hasselbeck is twice the quarterback krieg was, you're posting like you don't know what you're talking about.

also, ok, zorn was the first quarterback of the franchise, he never took them to the playoffs and he cracked an 80 in quarterback rating once. for the most part zorn was a very mediocre quarterback with one year of being halfway decent and four of being dismal. this isn't a thread about what meant most to a franchise, it's the greatest players. you don't see nigel wilson and david neid on the greatest marlins and rockies list despite the fact that they were the first players in those franchise's historys. you wouldn't include diego segui as one of the mariners just because he started the first game. i think it's pretty insane how highly jim zorn is regarded in seattle seahawks history.
woooooooow, knives out huh?

krieg got sacked a ton, but he was notorious for coughing the ball up in fumbles every time he got hit. hasselbeck will pass him the longer he plays here in career numbers. He's a better decision maker, leader, and smarter. For Krieg, TD%? That's your argument? Really? Ok. So you admit that hasselbeck has been better, but I don't know what i'm talking about when I say he was better than krieg? i don't get that.

and that's fine. zorn wasn't a good statistical player. he did an admirable job for having absolutely nobody around him in an era where statistically QB ratings were much lower. there's not a good argument for him statistically, so i won't even bother fighting it. I already conceded it anyways.

[startBBtoday]

woooooooow, knives out huh?

krieg got sacked a ton, but he was notorious for coughing the ball up in fumbles every time he got hit. hasselbeck will pass him the longer he plays here in career numbers. He's a better decision maker, leader, and smarter. For Krieg, TD%? That's your argument? Really? Ok. So you admit that hasselbeck has been better, but I don't know what i'm talking about when I say he was better than krieg? i don't get that.

and that's fine. zorn wasn't a good statistical player. he did an admirable job for having absolutely nobody around him in an era where statistically QB ratings were much lower. there's not a good argument for him statistically, so i won't even bother fighting it. I already conceded it anyways.

you said hasselbeck was twice the player krieg was. that's not true. their numbers are very close.

you're posting like a yankees fan, better decision maker? better leader? smarter? have you talked to them? have you talked to their teammates? where are you coming up with this garbage? all you're telling me about krieg is that he fumbles a lot, something every nfl fan on the planet knows and we all know why he fumbled a lot, he got sacked a shitload and had a horrible line.

hasselbeck's completion % is 2.2 points higher
krieg's td% is 1 point higher
his int % is 1.4 higher
yards/attempt is .2 higher
yards per game is 13 yards lower
qb rating is 4 points lower
3 playoff appearances for both

tell me where you can see from here that hasselbeck is twice the qb krieg was? they're very even quarterbacks.

but hasselbeck is smarter than krieg right? and a better leader and decision maker? one of the weakest arguments i've ever seen out of you and it's all discredited from the fact that you put jim zorn as one of the greatest seahawks of all time.

[Scott Weber]

you said hasselbeck was twice the player krieg was. that's not true. their numbers are very close.

you're posting like a yankees fan, better decision maker? better leader? smarter? have you talked to them? have you talked to their teammates? where are you coming up with this garbage? all you're telling me about krieg is that he fumbles a lot, something every nfl fan on the planet knows and we all know why he fumbled a lot, he got sacked a shitload and had a horrible line.

hasselbeck's completion % is 2.2 points higher
krieg's td% is 1 point higher
his int % is 1.4 higher
yards/attempt is .2 higher
yards per game is 13 yards lower
qb rating is 4 points lower
3 playoff appearances for both

tell me where you can see from here that hasselbeck is twice the qb krieg was? they're very even quarterbacks.

but hasselbeck is smarter than krieg right? and a better leader and decision maker? one of the weakest arguments i've ever seen out of you and it's all discredited from the fact that you put jim zorn as one of the greatest seahawks of all time.
dude, why is it impossible for you to have a debate right now without ridiculous insults? are you drunk?

how is it a stretch to talk about decision making from a viewer standpoint? how is that some magical thing that can only be determined by interviewing players? I honestly have no idea what you're talking about now. That blows my mind. Obviously the term "smart" when applied to a quarterback doesn't come from test scores. How can you not talk about decision-making when it comes to quarterbacks? Have you seriously ever had a conversation about QBs outside of statistics before? garbage? read a scouting report just about anywhere and they'll talk about smarts and decision making. that is beyond ridiculous for you to pick a fight about that.

Excuse me for saying "twice the quarterback" krieg was. It's a figure of speech. You can't even statistically say that Matt Hasselbeck is twice the quarterback Rex Grossman is, even though we all know he is. Figure of speech. So nitpick on that all you want, you want a fight and clearly you got it. the point is that i feel Matt is considerably better than Krieg due to his super bowl appearance, his composure in the pocket (getting sacked doesn't mean you have to fumble all the time, not saying it didn't contribute, but Krieg's fumble rates were abnormally high) - Krieg fumbled 18 times in 1989, and he was sacked at a 6.9% rate - virtually identical to Hasselbeck's career 6.8% sack ratio, and Matt's career high is 9 fumbles, and 6 is the next highest. It wasn't just the sacks, so don't pretend like it was.

Fuck TD%. It's a retarded stat. Matt led the team in 2005, had an outstanding year, and had all his TD's stolen by Alexander. He's averaged more yards per year than Krieg by a lot, but he's had RB to finish the job. That stat means very little. It's even more flawed that QB rating.

And holy fucking shit I conceded Zorn, I said it was a mistake to put him on there and I should have put Krieg instead. Then you said you respected me for admitting it, now you're acting like a cunt and rubbing it in my face? I have no respect for you. That shit is done. I threw together a list while sitting on the couch off the top of my head and while I'm glad conversation came from it, I didn't expect you to be such a bitch about it when I gladly admitted my mistake. I just said I wasn't going to fight it. How many times do I have to say it? Unreal.

[startBBtoday]

hahaha, you're calling me a cunt and a bitch and i'm the one throwing out insults? oooook dude.

you were 8 years old when dave krieg left the seattle seahawks. you must have been a pretty smart 8 year old to be deciphering decision making, ability to lead a team and qb smarts from your home team's quarterback!

all we can rely on in this discussion is statistics and the two are remarkably similar, neither one is twice the quarterback as the other and you know as well as anyone else that hyperbole like that will be torn apart on this forum.

[RickRoll]

Oilers:

Wayne Gretzky
Mark Messier
Jari Kurri
Grant Fuhr
Paul Coffey
Glenn Anderson
Bill Ranford
Ryan Smyth
Curtis Joseph
Esa Tikkanen

Curtis Joseph? I don't know about that one. He played 2 1/2 seasons for the Oilers, and had a losing winning % in 1.5 of those seasons.

I think Kevin Lowe easily deserves that spot, especially given his role continuing on with the team post-retirement.

I'd also put Steve Smith, Kelly Buchberger, hell, even Dave Semenko above Joseph for protecting Gretz all those years. :P

[Scott Weber]

hahaha, you're calling me a cunt and a bitch and i'm the one throwing out insults? oooook dude.

you were 8 years old when dave krieg left the seattle seahawks. you must have been a pretty smart 8 year old to be deciphering decision making, ability to lead a team and qb smarts from your home team's quarterback!

all we can rely on in this discussion is statistics and the two are remarkably similar, neither one is twice the quarterback as the other and you know as well as anyone else that hyperbole like that will be torn apart on this forum.
Haha right. Start out throwing insults, sit back and wait for somebody to respond, then when they respond in turn, call them out for being a hypocrite? That's a familiar tactic. I wonder who else uses that one...You started the personal shit, don't take the high road now. You drug me into the mud with you. if you're going to act like a bitch about the zorn thing, get called out on it. that's how it goes.

And you were 6 when Krieg left. If we were to only have arguments about every player we saw past the age of 15 or 16 (or whatever age we were mentally prepared to analyze football), then it'd be dead here. We've both done a ton of reading on the hawks, at least i have, and I know the main critiques of Krieg. We have to fill in the gaps with what we can remember and also what we've read in books, articles, and other forms of accounts we've read about football hsitory. Honestly, we can't argue about any football players pre-1992? Football is much, much more than any statistics can analyze, especially back then advanced statistical measures were non-existant. At least now we have football outsiders to help understand a little bit better.

And in turn, you can't expect to ignore arguments presented towards you and get away with it. Run away or ignore from the fumble issue because you can't win it. Krieg had shit for hands and it wasn't just because he got sacked that he fumbled way more than he should have. You absolutely cannot prove that statistically.

And you were a bitch about Zorn and you know it. When somebody has the class to admit they were wrong here, generally they're let go. I am tough on people when I feel I can prove them wrong, but when they admit it, that's fine, it's over. same shit happened to today with that Pand kid in the MLB forum today when he said he'd take McLouth over Sizemore. 3 people disagreed with him and presented arguments why, and he said "that's fine, guess I'm wrong." Over. Let go. Honestly, that's so low to keep hammering it around when I immediately said you were right and I couldn't argue against it and wouldn't fight it. Why would you even do that other than to be a douche? I guess you just get your shits and giggles from picking fights with me.

[startBBtoday]

Haha right. Start out throwing insults, sit back and wait for somebody to respond, then when they respond in turn, call them out for being a hypocrite? That's a familiar tactic. I wonder who else uses that one...You started the personal shit, don't take the high road now. You drug me into the mud with you. if you're going to act like a bitch about the zorn thing, get called out on it. that's how it goes.

And you were 6 when Krieg left. If we were to only have arguments about every player we saw past the age of 15 or 16 (or whatever age we were mentally prepared to analyze football), then it'd be dead here. We've both done a ton of reading on the hawks, at least i have, and I know the main critiques of Krieg. We have to fill in the gaps with what we can remember and also what we've read in books, articles, and other forms of accounts we've read about football hsitory. Honestly, we can't argue about any football players pre-1992? Football is much, much more than any statistics can analyze, especially back then advanced statistical measures were non-existant. At least now we have football outsiders to help understand a little bit better.

And in turn, you can't expect to ignore arguments presented towards you and get away with it. Run away or ignore from the fumble issue because you can't win it. Krieg had shit for hands and it wasn't just because he got sacked that he fumbled way more than he should have. You absolutely cannot prove that statistically.

And you were a bitch about Zorn and you know it. When somebody has the class to admit they were wrong here, generally they're let go. I am tough on people when I feel I can prove them wrong, but when they admit it, that's fine, it's over. same shit happened to today with that Pand kid in the MLB forum today when he said he'd take McLouth over Sizemore. 3 people disagreed with him and presented arguments why, and he said "that's fine, guess I'm wrong." Over. Let go. Honestly, that's so low to keep hammering it around when I immediately said you were right and I couldn't argue against it and wouldn't fight it. Why would you even do that other than to be a douche? I guess you just get your shits and giggles from picking fights with me.

yeah, i guess i'm a bully.

i have agreed multiple times that his fumbling was a problem and that EVERYONE KNOWS THIS (he had small hands). he still seemed to win and he still seemed to put up some great stats despite it.

your only other argument here is based on things you didn't see! obviously we can argue and discuss players that we saw in limited action, but you can't discuss things like team leadership, intelligence and decision making! that's seriously absurd. come up with books or articles that say dave krieg wasn't a team leader, made poor decisions or wasn't an intelligent quarterback and i'll secede my argument. if anything he relied on all three of those things because he was an undersized qb without a great arm.

finally, yes, it is pretty funny to see what you will resort to. calling someone a cunt and a bitch on this site gets nothing accomplished. it's fucking retarded. i don't even really understand what got all the sand lodged up in your pussy, i keep giving you shit about jim zorn because he sucked! that's like saying rex grossman was one of the greatest bears of all time. in any other regard jim zorn would have been benched immediately, but it was a young team with an unexperienced fanbase and they ate him up.

[startBBtoday]

you also kept backing up jim zorn. you can say you're conceding about it, but you kept throwing out more nonsense about why he was so important.

[bigmike]

yeah, i guess i'm a bully.

i have agreed multiple times that his fumbling was a problem and that EVERYONE KNOWS THIS (he had small hands). he still seemed to win and he still seemed to put up some great stats despite it.

your only other argument here is based on things you didn't see! obviously we can argue and discuss players that we saw in limited action, but you can't discuss things like team leadership, intelligence and decision making! that's seriously absurd. come up with books or articles that say dave krieg wasn't a team leader, made poor decisions or wasn't an intelligent quarterback and i'll secede my argument. if anything he relied on all three of those things because he was an undersized qb without a great arm.

finally, yes, it is pretty funny to see what you will resort to. calling someone a cunt and a bitch on this site gets nothing accomplished. it's fucking retarded. i don't even really understand what got all the sand lodged up in your pussy, i keep giving you shit about jim zorn because he sucked! that's like saying rex grossman was one of the greatest bears of all time. in any other regard jim zorn would have been benched immediately, but it was a young team with an unexperienced fanbase and they ate him up.
You can know Kreig's arm strength when he was gone by the time you were 6 years old?

[bigmike]

you also kept backing up jim zorn. you can say you're conceding about it, but you kept throwing out more nonsense about why he was so important.
uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
i can't. krieg was better. I had him on at the end and realized I had 11 and just took him off.
Zero defense of Zorn.
hasselbeck is twice the QB krieg was. krieg wasn't that great. he fumbled like crazy. zorn meant a shitload to this franchise, there's a reason he's in the ring of honor.
Half-assed defense of Zorn.
woooooooow, knives out huh?

krieg got sacked a ton, but he was notorious for coughing the ball up in fumbles every time he got hit. hasselbeck will pass him the longer he plays here in career numbers. He's a better decision maker, leader, and smarter. For Krieg, TD%? That's your argument? Really? Ok. So you admit that hasselbeck has been better, but I don't know what i'm talking about when I say he was better than krieg? i don't get that.

and that's fine. zorn wasn't a good statistical player. he did an admirable job for having absolutely nobody around him in an era where statistically QB ratings were much lower. there's not a good argument for him statistically, so i won't even bother fighting it. I already conceded it anyways.
Zero defense of Zorn.
dude, why is it impossible for you to have a debate right now without ridiculous insults? are you drunk?

how is it a stretch to talk about decision making from a viewer standpoint? how is that some magical thing that can only be determined by interviewing players? I honestly have no idea what you're talking about now. That blows my mind. Obviously the term "smart" when applied to a quarterback doesn't come from test scores. How can you not talk about decision-making when it comes to quarterbacks? Have you seriously ever had a conversation about QBs outside of statistics before? garbage? read a scouting report just about anywhere and they'll talk about smarts and decision making. that is beyond ridiculous for you to pick a fight about that.

Excuse me for saying "twice the quarterback" krieg was. It's a figure of speech. You can't even statistically say that Matt Hasselbeck is twice the quarterback Rex Grossman is, even though we all know he is. Figure of speech. So nitpick on that all you want, you want a fight and clearly you got it. the point is that i feel Matt is considerably better than Krieg due to his super bowl appearance, his composure in the pocket (getting sacked doesn't mean you have to fumble all the time, not saying it didn't contribute, but Krieg's fumble rates were abnormally high) - Krieg fumbled 18 times in 1989, and he was sacked at a 6.9% rate - virtually identical to Hasselbeck's career 6.8% sack ratio, and Matt's career high is 9 fumbles, and 6 is the next highest. It wasn't just the sacks, so don't pretend like it was.

Fuck TD%. It's a retarded stat. Matt led the team in 2005, had an outstanding year, and had all his TD's stolen by Alexander. He's averaged more yards per year than Krieg by a lot, but he's had RB to finish the job. That stat means very little. It's even more flawed that QB rating.

And holy fucking shit I conceded Zorn, I said it was a mistake to put him on there and I should have put Krieg instead. Then you said you respected me for admitting it, now you're acting like a cunt and rubbing it in my face? I have no respect for you. That shit is done. I threw together a list while sitting on the couch off the top of my head and while I'm glad conversation came from it, I didn't expect you to be such a bitch about it when I gladly admitted my mistake. I just said I wasn't going to fight it. How many times do I have to say it? Unreal.
Zero defense of Zorn.
Haha right. Start out throwing insults, sit back and wait for somebody to respond, then when they respond in turn, call them out for being a hypocrite? That's a familiar tactic. I wonder who else uses that one...You started the personal shit, don't take the high road now. You drug me into the mud with you. if you're going to act like a bitch about the zorn thing, get called out on it. that's how it goes.

And you were 6 when Krieg left. If we were to only have arguments about every player we saw past the age of 15 or 16 (or whatever age we were mentally prepared to analyze football), then it'd be dead here. We've both done a ton of reading on the hawks, at least i have, and I know the main critiques of Krieg. We have to fill in the gaps with what we can remember and also what we've read in books, articles, and other forms of accounts we've read about football hsitory. Honestly, we can't argue about any football players pre-1992? Football is much, much more than any statistics can analyze, especially back then advanced statistical measures were non-existant. At least now we have football outsiders to help understand a little bit better.

And in turn, you can't expect to ignore arguments presented towards you and get away with it. Run away or ignore from the fumble issue because you can't win it. Krieg had shit for hands and it wasn't just because he got sacked that he fumbled way more than he should have. You absolutely cannot prove that statistically.

And you were a bitch about Zorn and you know it. When somebody has the class to admit they were wrong here, generally they're let go. I am tough on people when I feel I can prove them wrong, but when they admit it, that's fine, it's over. same shit happened to today with that Pand kid in the MLB forum today when he said he'd take McLouth over Sizemore. 3 people disagreed with him and presented arguments why, and he said "that's fine, guess I'm wrong." Over. Let go. Honestly, that's so low to keep hammering it around when I immediately said you were right and I couldn't argue against it and wouldn't fight it. Why would you even do that other than to be a douche? I guess you just get your shits and giggles from picking fights with me.
And zero defense of Zorn.


So, I'm really failing to see where Scott continued on spewing about Zorn like he was Joe Montana or whatever hyperbole you feel like throwing out.

[Scott Weber]

yeah, i guess i'm a bully.

i have agreed multiple times that his fumbling was a problem and that EVERYONE KNOWS THIS (he had small hands). he still seemed to win and he still seemed to put up some great stats despite it.

your only other argument here is based on things you didn't see! obviously we can argue and discuss players that we saw in limited action, but you can't discuss things like team leadership, intelligence and decision making! that's seriously absurd. come up with books or articles that say dave krieg wasn't a team leader, made poor decisions or wasn't an intelligent quarterback and i'll secede my argument. if anything he relied on all three of those things because he was an undersized qb without a great arm.

finally, yes, it is pretty funny to see what you will resort to. calling someone a cunt and a bitch on this site gets nothing accomplished. it's fucking retarded. i don't even really understand what got all the sand lodged up in your pussy, i keep giving you shit about jim zorn because he sucked! that's like saying rex grossman was one of the greatest bears of all time. in any other regard jim zorn would have been benched immediately, but it was a young team with an unexperienced fanbase and they ate him up.
You straight up attested his fumbling problem to him getting sacked a ton:
something every nfl fan on the planet knows and we all know why he fumbled a lot, he got sacked a shitload and had a horrible line. So nice try, you lose. And you were wrong. And I proved it, and you ignored it. Let's not dance around it.

How can you not see decision making? Can we not talk about Walter Payton's ability to shed tackles, or Montana's killer instinct with the niners? It doesn't just go one way. It's a comparison. I didn't say Krieg was a shit decision maker. I said Matt was better, based on a combination of a) what I remember b) what i've read c) what we can infer statistically and d) what I can see now. So don't put words in my mouth.

And while I never called you a cunt (you were acting like one and even you know that), you can keep playing the high road on that one, I don't care. You came out attacking me, I'm not allowed to respond in turn, I get it. And rad. You hate Jim Zorn, you reallllly wanted to hammer it home and expected a fight I didn't give you, so you made it yourself. Seriously, i get it. I'm not going to talk about Zorn anymore because I conceded it 3 times now, I'll make it 4. I fully expect you to bring it up again or throw it in my face in another argument, because that's the kind of dude you are. Classy.
you also kept backing up jim zorn. you can say you're conceding about it, but you kept throwing out more nonsense about why he was so important.
in what? that post where I said why I included him in the first place, after conceding my mistake and saying there was no good arguments for him? about how he was important to the franchise and in the ring of honor and that's why I mentioned him? Ok. Blow it up more. I totally "kept backing it up."

[startBBtoday]

-he did an admirable job for having absolutely nobody around him in an era where statistically QB ratings were much lower.

-zorn meant a shitload to this franchise, there's a reason he's in the ring of honor.

both after he has conceded.

i clearly never said he was going on about zorn like he was montana.

[bigmike]

-he did an admirable job for having absolutely nobody around him in an era where statistically QB ratings were much lower.

-zorn meant a shitload to this franchise, there's a reason he's in the ring of honor.

both after he has conceded.

i clearly never said he was going on about zorn like he was montana.
So you're just not going to include the very next line after the part about QB Ratings being much lower in that era when he said:

and that's fine. zorn wasn't a good statistical player. he did an admirable job for having absolutely nobody around him in an era where statistically QB ratings were much lower. there's not a good argument for him statistically, so i won't even bother fighting it. I already conceded it anyways.

Oh. Got it.

[startBBtoday]

so that first part still wasn't defending him?

[startBBtoday]

You straight up attested his fumbling problem to him getting sacked a ton:
. So nice try, you lose. And you were wrong. And I proved it, and you ignored it. Let's not dance around it.

How can you not see decision making? Can we not talk about Walter Payton's ability to shed tackles, or Montana's killer instinct with the niners? It doesn't just go one way. It's a comparison. I didn't say Krieg was a shit decision maker. I said Matt was better, based on a combination of a) what I remember b) what i've read c) what we can infer statistically and d) what I can see now. So don't put words in my mouth.

And while I never called you a cunt (you were acting like one and even you know that), you can keep playing the high road on that one, I don't care. You came out attacking me, I'm not allowed to respond in turn, I get it. And rad. You hate Jim Zorn, you reallllly wanted to hammer it home and expected a fight I didn't give you, so you made it yourself. Seriously, i get it. I'm not going to talk about Zorn anymore because I conceded it 3 times now, I'll make it 4. I fully expect you to bring it up again or throw it in my face in another argument, because that's the kind of dude you are. Classy.

in what? that post where I said why I included him in the first place, after conceding my mistake and saying there was no good arguments for him? about how he was important to the franchise and in the ring of honor and that's why I mentioned him? Ok. Blow it up more. I totally "kept backing it up."

DAVE KRIEG HAD SMALL HANDS AND FUMBLED A LOT, IT'S HIS MAIN CRITICISM AND EVERYONE KNOWS THIS!

[startBBtoday]

happy?

[Scott Weber]

Good god, pick your battles dude.

[startBBtoday]

we can talk about walter payton's ability to shed tackles and montana's killer instinct because we've seen it a thousand times on epsn. when was the last time you caught a clip of one of dave krieg's old games.

i will forever fight that you cannot compare hasselbeck an krieg's decision making, intelligence and leadership based off statistics or what you remember at 8 years old because that's insane.

[Scott Weber]

DAVE KRIEG HAD SMALL HANDS AND FUMBLED A LOT, IT'S HIS MAIN CRITICISM AND EVERYONE KNOWS THIS!

Nah, because you only said it like that after I called you out on saying something stupid. Hey, if you're going to be petty like that, so can I, right? You defended him with terrible reasoning.

[Scott Weber]

we can talk about walter payton's ability to shed tackles and montana's killer instinct because we've seen it a thousand times on epsn. when was the last time you caught a clip of one of dave krieg's old games.

i will forever fight that you cannot compare hasselbeck an krieg's decision making, intelligence and leadership based off statistics or what you remember at 8 years old because that's insane.
That's fine, I will remember this for anytime anybody tries to compare NFL players before whatever age is acceptable to you unless they're obscenely famous and there is adequate footage (all highlights, mind you). Based on your logic, it is impossible for anybody to ever have a debate about football players outside of a 12 year window in our age. The NFL thread is going to suck this year.

[startBBtoday]

Nah, because you only said it like that after I called you out on saying something stupid. Hey, if you're going to be petty like that, so can I, right? You defended him with terrible reasoning.

i believe i backed it up with stats, unless you feel like deleting that post, you can go back and look at it.

you also picked krieg's worst season with the most fumbles and least sacks to prove your point. can i start only comparing hasselbeck based off his 2006 season?

[startBBtoday]

That's fine, I will remember this for anytime anybody tries to compare NFL players before whatever age is acceptable to you unless they're obscenely famous and there is adequate footage (all highlights, mind you). Based on your logic, it is impossible for anybody to ever have a debate about football players outside of a 12 year window in our age. The NFL thread is going to suck this year.

talk stats all you want, but when you haven't seen a dave krieg game in 17 years, i'm not sure how you're going to go about comparing his quarterback intelligence and leadership skills. like i said before, if you want to find some quotes on any of this, be my guest. i'm not gonna let you blindly throw out information like that though, cheapest comeback is saying something that you nor anyone else can prove.

[bigmike]

so that first part still wasn't defending him?
Would you prefer I amend my previous post laying out scott's arguments to "half-assed defense of zorn" for that particular post? I can do so if you'd like. I'm here to help you out, good sir.
we can talk about walter payton's ability to shed tackles and montana's killer instinct because we've seen it a thousand times on epsn. when was the last time you caught a clip of one of dave krieg's old games.

i will forever fight that you cannot compare hasselbeck an krieg's decision making, intelligence and leadership based off statistics or what you remember at 8 years old because that's insane.
can you please compare his arm strength with hasselbeck's for me, please?

[Scott Weber]

i believe i backed it up with stats, unless you feel like deleting that post, you can go back and look at it.

you also picked krieg's worst season with the most fumbles and least sacks to prove your point. can i start only comparing hasselbeck based off his 2006 season?
Do you want me to pick apart Krieg's fumble woes season by season and compare them to sack rates? I will gladly do that in the morning, or you could just look at it and see how horribly wrong you are and save us all some time. You can take a look at the year after if you want, or see how he never fumbled under 10 times in a season in which he played 10 or more games, or how he fumbled a ton for Arizona, there is no possible argument you can make that directly relates his fumbles to poor lines or sack problems. But you can freely admit that now, right? Or no. I forget.

[startBBtoday]

Would you prefer I amend my previous post laying out scott's arguments to "half-assed defense of zorn" for that particular post? I can do so if you'd like. I'm here to help you out, good sir.

can you please compare his arm strength with hasselbeck's for me, please?

i can do just the same as scott here, i remember reading that krieg didn't have great arm strength.

why did you butt into this again?

[Scott Weber]

talk stats all you want, but when you haven't seen a dave krieg game in 17 years, i'm not sure how you're going to go about comparing his quarterback intelligence and leadership skills. like i said before, if you want to find some quotes on any of this, be my guest. i'm not gonna let you blindly throw out information like that though, cheapest comeback is saying something that you nor anyone else can prove.
Oh heavens, no!!!!! Never back down, never give in!!!!!

Can anybody prove non-statistical measures of a player that we didn't see at what you consider is an appropriate age? I guess we can never have discussions about football outside that specific time frame then, check. I mean, what do you want me to say? Do you think I'm going to drive down to the Seattle public library to find that 1988 Seahawk season in review yearbook I read when I was like 16?

[Scott Weber]

i can do just the same as scott here, i remember reading that krieg didn't have great arm strength.

why did you butt into this again?
So you can make conclusions about Krieg based on what you read on his arm strength, but I can't make conclusions about his decision-making skills based on what I read? I just want to make sure we're on the same page here.

[startBBtoday]

i incorrectly defended his fumbling problems.

you blindly threw out intelligence and leadership skills as a cheap argument tool.

we were both wrong. i really don't feel like fighting against two people right now, it's a lot less fun than a one on one argument.

[bigmike]

i can do just the same as scott here, i remember reading that krieg didn't have great arm strength.

why did you butt into this again?
So you just remember that Kreig had below average arm strength from when you were 6? Or was it all the times you saw him with Chiefs? Or was it the Lions? Or maybe it was when he went to the Cardinals?

Because I cannot sleep and the fact that this discussion has gone on for so long -- about what someone is able to discuss or not depending on their age -- humors me.

[startBBtoday]

i'll throw in the arm strength as well to make it even.

[startBBtoday]

So you just remember that Kreig had below average arm strength from when you were 6? Or was it all the times you saw him with Chiefs? Or was it the Lions? Or maybe it was when he went to the Cardinals?

Because I cannot sleep and the fact that this discussion has gone on for so long -- about what someone is able to discuss or not depending on their age -- humors me.

i said reading, not seeing

[bigmike]

i said reading, not seeing
The Detroit News? The Kansas City Star? I didn't know those were such widespread newspapers. Learn something new everyday.

[Scott Weber]

i incorrectly defended his fumbling problems.

you blindly threw out intelligence and leadership skills as a cheap argument tool.

we were both wrong. i really don't feel like fighting against two people right now, it's a lot less fun than a one on one argument.
nah. you were actually wrong. that much can be proven statistically. you think i'm wrong on the other but you can't argue against it because you used the exact same logic to talk about his arm strength. so really, you're wrong on 2 counts.

bedtime. can't wait for your next attempt to get under my skin.

[startBBtoday]

seahawks history books? football cards? pro football history books? articles on dave krieg since he's retired? seahawks yearbooks and programs? want me to take pictures of the books i've read?

[Scott Weber]

seahawks history books? football cards? pro football history books? articles on dave krieg since he's retired? seahawks yearbooks and programs? want me to take pictures of the books i've read?
any mention of dave krieg's decision making in those books? no? just the arm strength? oh, ok.


night.

[startBBtoday]

any mention of dave krieg's decision making in those books? no? just the arm strength? oh, ok.


night.

i just checked, in all of them it said hasselbeck's was better, incredible!

[startBBtoday]

nah. you were actually wrong. that much can be proven statistically. you think i'm wrong on the other but you can't argue against it because you used the exact same logic to talk about his arm strength. so really, you're wrong on 2 counts.

bedtime. can't wait for your next attempt to get under my skin.

you successfully turned an argument in which you said "matt hasselbeck is twice the quarterback dave krieg was" into semantics over fumbles, which we agreed was a problem from the beginning. you ignored every other stat that was thrown out other than fumbles, you based your argument off of intelligence and team leadership. when you knew you had nothing to prove your first statement, you back tracked saying it was just a phrase and argued semantics until it appeared you had been right in the first place, when you had already backtracked on the zorn thing, you had already backtracked on how much better hasselbeck was than krieg and you had completely contradicted yourself on name calling.

cool. in the immortal words of mike ford, spoken many times, "scott weber is a fa.ggot."

[Scott Weber]

you successfully turned an argument in which you said "matt hasselbeck is twice the quarterback dave krieg was" into semantics over fumbles, which we agreed was a problem from the beginning. you ignored every other stat that was thrown out other than fumbles, you based your argument off of intelligence and team leadership. when you knew you had nothing to prove your first statement, you back tracked saying it was just a phrase and argued semantics until it appeared you had been right in the first place, when you had already backtracked on the zorn thing, you had already backtracked on how much better hasselbeck was than krieg and you had completely contradicted yourself on name calling.

cool. in the immortal words of mike ford, spoken many times, "scott weber is a fa.ggot."
actually, i talked about TD%, which you really wanted to hammer home, and how flawed of a stat it was, which you then ignored multiple times. what other stats was I supposed to respond to, the ones he was worse than hasselbeck in? the only other stat krieg was better than hass in was yards/attempt, by .2 yards. mega fail.

yeah, obviously twice the qb was an exaggeration. did you not read what I said about hass vs. grossman? i don't see how admitting you were wrong or made an exaggeration is some huge back tracking problem. i guess my immediate admission of incorrectness about zorn is totally backtracking, despite the massive amounts of proof that i was hardly doing so.

wait, what am i doing? you just called me a ******. really? i mean, really?

i guess with your last words you can join mikeford in AP exile. hope you have enough self-respect like mike did to not come back. you'll miss this more than you'll admit. don't bother making new user names. sorry to everyone who's a fan of doug or thinks i'm a big douche for doing this, but that's just not going to fly. it was all fun and games until you brought out the homophobic crap. later.

[Killadelphia]

I'm glad we've come to this compromise. To be honest, I agree with you more then I let on.

You know what is even better? That the Phils then turned Polanco into Ugueth Urbina who then went all pyro/machette on some guys and barely pitched for them, too.

Well, Urbina did pitch the full year, so it was pretty much a rental anyway and he pitched well. Just retard Wagner cost us. The Phillies would have kept Polanco if he was willing to move to third, but he didn't want to.

haha, such a terrible trade for the Phillies. Rolen for Timlin, Polanco, and Smith. I remember it being between the Cardinals and Reds. Rolen quickly became my favorite player.

Bud Smith's ceiling was a #5 starter at best until the injuries hit. That no-hitter was damn fun to watch, though.

UGh, don't remind me.

[Chris M.]

Yeah, I guess you could lump him in there.

I'd say Stubby Clapp too, but I'm not sure if you know who that is.

Stubby Clapp: Canadian baseball hero.

[BuriedAlive]

A side note about Dave Krieg. He definitely fumbled the ball a lot. Hell, even David Carr couldn't manage to fumble the ball as much as he did, and he got sacked 262 times in 82 games (about three times a game).

Really I was just looking for a plug to make David Carr not as terrible as he was as a starter.

[FondestMemory]

know who was awesome?

dan mcgwire.

[Smithers]

red sox:
Ted Williams
Carl Yastrzemski
Roger Clemens
Manny Ramirez
Pedro Martinez
Cy Young
Wade Boggs
Jim Rice
Joe Cronin

number 10 is hard, it's either bobby doerr or babe ruth though, fisk is in the running as well.
i'd think the masses would say bobby doerr but if it was really up to me, i'd say pesky, for sentimental sake i guess.

most of the other HoFers from the sox played for other teams too: Foxx, Grove, Speaker, etc.

[wesgemm08]

Lakers

Magic Johnson
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Kobe Bryant
Jerry West
Shaq
Wilt Chamberlain
Elgin Baylor
George Mikan
James Worthy
Gail Goodrich or Byron Scott

Orioles

Cal Ripken Jr.
Frank Robinson
Brooks Robinson
Jim Palmer
Eddie Murray
Mike Mussina

[VoiceoffCamera]

Brewers:
Cecil Cooper
Robin Yount
Paul Molitor
Jim Gantner
Gorman Thomas
Ben Oglivie
Richie Sexson
Teddy Higuera
Hank Aaron
Ben Sheets

honorable mentions: Geoff Jenkins, Ryan Braun, Prince Fielder, Jeromy Burnitz

[LastPlaceRocks]

Question: Are we including previous incarnations of teams in the franchise or just each city?

[Broken Parachute]

Previous teams count.

ie: Brooklyn Dodgers/New York Giants/Philadelphia A's are the same as LA Dodgers/San Francisco Giants/Oakland A's

[LastPlaceRocks]

Minnesota Twins/Washington Senators (1st incarnation)
Kirby Puckett
Harmon Killebrew
Walter Johnson
Rod Carew
Tony Oliva
Bucky Harris
Kent Hrbek
Early Wynn
Bert Blyleven
Jim Kaat

[bigmike]

Well, Urbina did pitch the full year, so it was pretty much a rental anyway and he pitched well. Just retard Wagner cost us. The Phillies would have kept Polanco if he was willing to move to third, but he didn't want to.



UGh, don't remind me.
Oh, I forgot that he did finish out that year. For some reason I was thinking he didn't work out and then went back to his home land and try to go KC Jones on some dudes with a gas can and machette.

[RickRoll]

Maple Leafs:
Dave Keon
Johnny Bower
Frank Mahovlich
Darryl Sittler
Syl Apps
Ted Kennedy
Charlie Conacher
Borje Salming
Wendel Clark

And the infamous 10 spot becoming difficult to go with. Turk Broda/Tim Horton/Doug Gilmour/Mats Sundin are certainly all worth consideration.

I'd probably go Tim Horton.

[CubbyNick42]

Cap Anson
Ernie Banks
Mordecai Brown
Gabby Hartnett
Ferguson Jenkins
Ryne Sandberg
Ron Santo
Sammy Sosa
Billy Williams
Hack Wilson

[Killadelphia]

Oh, I forgot that he did finish out that year. For some reason I was thinking he didn't work out and then went back to his home land and try to go KC Jones on some dudes with a gas can and machette.

14 years in a Venezuelan prison...rough.

[eHaMpToN]

Cowboys

Troy Aikman
Tony Dorsett
Bob Lilly
Michael Irvin
Emmitt Smith
Roger Staubach
Rayfield White
Ed Jones
Bob Jones
Randy White

New York Yankees

Derek Jeter
Yogi Berra
Mickey Mantle
Lou Gehrig
Babe Ruth
Joe DiMaggio
Phil Rizzuto
Whitey Ford
A-Rod
Graig Nettles

New York Islanders

Dennis Potvin
Clark Gillies
Denis Potvin
Pat LaFontaine
Billy Smith
Mike Bossy
Brian Trottier
Ed Westfall
Bob Nystrom
Ziggy Palffy

New York Knicks

Patrick Ewing
Dave DeBusschere
Earl Monroe
Willis Reed
Walt Frazier
Bill Bradley
Harry Gallatin
LJ
Allan Houston
Bernard King

[bigmike]

14 years in a Venezuelan prison...rough.
Oof, that sucks.

[Killadelphia]

Cowboys

Troy Aikman
Tony Dorsett
Bob Lilly
Michael Irvin
Emmitt Smith
Roger Staubach
Rayfield White
Ed Jones
Bob Jones
Randy White

New York Yankees

Derek Jeter
Yogi Berra
Mickey Mantle
Lou Gehrig
Babe Ruth
Joe DiMaggio
Phil Rizzuto
Whitey Ford
A-Rod
Graig Nettles

New York Islanders

Dennis Potvin
Clark Gillies
Denis Potvin
Pat LaFontaine
Billy Smith
Mike Bossy
Brian Trottier
Ed Westfall
Bob Nystrom
Ziggy Palffy

New York Knicks

Patrick Ewing
Dave DeBusschere
Earl Monroe
Willis Reed
Walt Frazier
Bill Bradley
Harry Gallatin
LJ
Allan Houston
Bernard King

Eh, Nettles was the Yankees best 3B until A-rod got there. Now that A-rod is there, Nettles shouldn't be mentioned among the all-time yankees.

[QuikTrig]

itd be pretty interesting to see which franchises all-time roster would win in a hypothetical game. i think my giants would do pretty damn good.

and while im here..

Giants (NY/SF, no order)

Willie McCovey
Willie Mays
Mel Ott
Barry Bonds
Christy Mathewson
Juan Marichal
Carl Hubbell
Orlando Cepeda
Gaylord Perry

mentions -- robb nen, rod beck, matt williams, will clark, kevin mitchell, vida blue? hmm i might need some help tweaking this.

[eHaMpToN]

Eh, Nettles was the Yankees best 3B until A-rod got there. Now that A-rod is there, Nettles shouldn't be mentioned among the all-time yankees.

i was thinking of omitting nettles and adding possibly mattingly to the mix, but the fact that nettles played for them when they were a better team made me choose nettles. (knows mattingly played 1B)

[Killadelphia]

i was thinking of omitting nettles and adding possibly mattingly to the mix, but the fact that nettles played for them when they were a better team made me choose nettles. (knows mattingly played 1B)

yeah, but Nettles is comparable to Giambi.

I'd put Bernie or Jeter in over Nettles. Maybe even Rickey Henderson. Bill Dickey too.

[bigmike]

i was thinking of omitting nettles and adding possibly mattingly to the mix, but the fact that nettles played for them when they were a better team made me choose nettles. (knows mattingly played 1B)
Why is Mattingly not on there?

[eHaMpToN]

Why is Mattingly not on there?

i didnt think he needed to be, granted he was a great player but top 10 in yankees history?

[eHaMpToN]

yeah, but Nettles is comparable to Giambi.

I'd put Bernie or Jeter in over Nettles. Maybe even Rickey Henderson. Bill Dickey too.

jeters on there, bernie mighta been good as well as dickey, but ricky henderson as an all time yankee nah

[Killadelphia]

even ron guidry could be on there before nettles

[eHaMpToN]

even ron guidry could be on there before nettles

valid point. i assume the list does need a little tweaking. i think i nailed the cowboys and islanders list though

[bigmike]

i didnt think he needed to be, granted he was a great player but top 10 in yankees history?
Graig Nettles is? You serious? Nettles posted a hitters vital line for the yankees of .253/.329/.434. Mattingly posted a vital line of .307/.358/.471.

So was it Nettles lesser hitting skills? Nettles lesser patience? Nettles lesser power?

[emkvetwin]

LOS ANGELES KINGS
Luc Robitaille
Marcel Dionne
Wayne Gretzky
Dave Taylor
Rogie Vachon
Rob Blake
Kelly Hrudey
Bernie Nicholls
Jim Fox
Anze Kopitar

LOS ANGELES DODGERS
Jackie Robinson
Sandy Koufax
Tommy Lasorda
Pee Wee Reese
Roy Campanella
Don Drysdale
Duke Snider
Fernando Valenzuela
Steve Garvey
Vin Scully (maybe not a great player, but undeniably a great Dodger.)

[RickRoll]

valid point. i assume the list does need a little tweaking. i think i nailed the cowboys and islanders list though

Ziggy Palffy is on the Islanders list, so no, you did not.

Denis Potvin is also on it twice.

[RickRoll]

LOS ANGELES KINGS
Luc Robitaille
Marcel Dionne
Wayne Gretzky
Dave Taylor
Rogie Vachon
Rob Blake
Kelly Hrudey
Bernie Nicholls
Jim Fox
Anze Kopitar

LOS ANGELES DODGERS
Jackie Robinson
Sandy Koufax
Tommy Lasorda
Pee Wee Reese
Roy Campanella
Don Drysdale
Duke Snider
Fernando Valenzuela
Steve Garvey
Vin Scully

How can you put a two-year player on a list of a franchise's best players? I know the Kings have had some shitty teams over the year but come on.

[Broken Parachute]

My dad was a Nettles fan, and he was a good Yankee, but with a lifetime average of around .250.............definitely not even close.

[emkvetwin]

How can you put a two-year player on a list of a franchise's best players? I know the Kings have had some shitty teams over the year but come on.

probably should have clarified that one; i agree that players like Butch Goring or Charlie Simmer have been "greater" and played for more years. that was more of a "future" pick. my bad for not explaining that, i just strongly believe that Anze will surpass those players and will be the best player on this team for years to come. if you want to examine it simply from "what have you done for me already," feel free to replace him with Goring or Simmer.

[StuGrimson]

Maple Leafs:
Dave Keon
Johnny Bower
Frank Mahovlich
Darryl Sittler
Syl Apps
Ted Kennedy
Charlie Conacher
Borje Salming
Wendel Clark

And the infamous 10 spot becoming difficult to go with. Turk Broda/Tim Horton/Doug Gilmour/Mats Sundin are certainly all worth consideration.

I'd probably go Tim Horton.

I pretty much came to the same conclusions as you. I just couldnt put Clark on my list though. As much as I like the guy and as popular as he was he just isnt top 10 in my opinion. I think Sundin, Gilmour and Horton have to be there but there is not anyone else I would take out.

[RickRoll]

To me, Clark was a guy who bled Leafs blue and gave it his all every night. When you think of the Leafs, he's one of the main guys you think of. I know that talent-wise and accomplishments-wise he may not be top 10, but I just couldn't exclude him really.

The Leafs, like other storied franchises(Yankees/Red Sox) are always going to have debates, because theoretically you could make a second top 10 that would rival the first. For arguments' sake, put Turk Broda in the ten spot there. Your next 5 would probably be Hap Day, Mats Sundin, Doug Gilmour, Tim Horton, and George Armstrong, who would make any other hockey franchise's(maybe bar the Canadiens) top 10. It's hard.

[StuGrimson]

It was tough to exclude Clark because for me growing up in this time Clark is the symol of the Toronto Maple Leafs even when Gilmour, Joseph and Sundin tried to take his title away.

Im not exactly a historian and like you said a top 20 is much easier than a top 10 so there really are no right or wrong answers here unless someone throws Aki Berg or Drake Berehowskys names into the mix.

[RickRoll]

Yeah, for me, being 23 in the fall, I'd say the players who most represent the Leafs name for me are:

1) Wendel Clark
2) Doug Gilmour
3) Mats Sundin
4) Tomas Kaberle
5) Felix Potvin/Curtis Joseph(tie)

[StuGrimson]

Id probably have to go with those 5 too though Im not a big Kaberle fan I cant really think of anyone to replace him

[btbam > you]

probably should have clarified that one; i agree that players like Butch Goring or Charlie Simmer have been "greater" and played for more years. that was more of a "future" pick. my bad for not explaining that, i just strongly believe that Anze will surpass those players and will be the best player on this team for years to come. if you want to examine it simply from "what have you done for me already," feel free to replace him with Goring or Simmer.

Yea, and Lombardi is dumb enough to trade him for picks sooner than later.

[RickRoll]

Not a Kaberle fan?!?!

WHAT?!

[vandalroyale]

George Brett
Frank White
Hal McRae
Willie Wilson
Amos Otis
Paul Splittorf
Dan Quisenberry
Mike Sweeney
Bret Saberhagen
Bo Jackson

I include Bo because his tenure in KC outlasted his playing anywhere else

[StuGrimson]

Not a Kaberle fan?!?!

WHAT?!

I have nothing against the guy I just wish he played a bit tougher and shot the puck more.

[BlinkinDuke]

itd be pretty interesting to see which franchises all-time roster would win in a hypothetical game. i think my giants would do pretty damn good.

and while im here..

Giants (NY/SF, no order)

Willie McCovey
Willie Mays
Mel Ott
Barry Bonds
Christy Mathewson
Juan Marichal
Carl Hubbell
Orlando Cepeda
Gaylord Perry

mentions -- robb nen, rod beck, matt williams, will clark, kevin mitchell, vida blue? hmm i might need some help tweaking this.

I'd probably throw in Iron Joe McGinnity as the 10th player. On your honorable mentions you forgot Jeff Kent. As much as I hate him for signing with the Dodgers, he served us well.

[btbam > you]

Patriots:

Tom Brady
Drew Bledsoe
John Hannah
Andre Tippett
Troy Brown
Kevin Faulk
Tedy Bruschi
Adam Vinatieri
Willie McGinest
Wes Welker (This last one was super-tough, but the amount of impact he had in just his first year on the team and the amount of game-changing plays he made to keep drives alive, etc, makes me feel he is worthy of this spot. Though, I know my mind's just blanking right now and I'm missing someone that should be on here.)

[Killadelphia]

Patriots:

Tom Brady
Drew Bledsoe
John Hannah
Andre Tippett
Troy Brown
Kevin Faulk
Tedy Bruschi
Adam Vinatieri
Willie McGinest
Wes Welker (This last one was super-tough, but the amount of impact he had in just his first year on the team and the amount of game-changing plays he made to keep drives alive, etc, makes me feel he is worthy of this spot. Though, I know my mind's just blanking right now and I'm missing someone that should be on here.)

Wes Welker = little value without Randy Moss/Tom Brady.

How about umm Michael Haynes? Need a WR, what about Stanley Morgan? I'd even put Ben Coates in over Welker.

[LastPlaceRocks]

Patriots:

Tom Brady
Drew Bledsoe
John Hannah
Andre Tippett
Troy Brown
Kevin Faulk
Tedy Bruschi
Adam Vinatieri
Willie McGinest
Wes Welker (This last one was super-tough, but the amount of impact he had in just his first year on the team and the amount of game-changing plays he made to keep drives alive, etc, makes me feel he is worthy of this spot. Though, I know my mind's just blanking right now and I'm missing someone that should be on here.)
I'm amazed that if you are going to use a first-year receiver for the Pats that you wouldn't use Moss. It's not as if he set the NFL record for most receiving touchdowns in that year and has better all-around stats. That said, I'd go with Ben Coates.

[Broken Parachute]

Patriots:

Tom Brady
Drew Bledsoe
John Hannah
Andre Tippett
Troy Brown
Kevin Faulk
Tedy Bruschi
Adam Vinatieri
Willie McGinest
Wes Welker (This last one was super-tough, but the amount of impact he had in just his first year on the team and the amount of game-changing plays he made to keep drives alive, etc, makes me feel he is worthy of this spot. Though, I know my mind's just blanking right now and I'm missing someone that should be on here.)Ben Coates
Gino Cappelletti
Jim Lee Hunt
Steve Grogan

All more deserving than Wes Welker.

[bigmike]

Detroit Red Wings, in no order:

Gordie Howe
Steve Yzerman
Ted Lindsay
Alex Delvecchio
Nick Lidstrom
Sid Abel
Terry Sawchuk
Sergei Fedorov
Norm Ullman
Mickey Redmond

That final spot is a tough one to fill. I gave it to Mickey Redmond, 310 of his 428 points came with the Wings and he holds the record for most goals per game in a wings uni at 0.56. Brendan Shanahan could've gotten that spot, too.

[BuriedAlive]

Stanley Morgan, Ty Law, Ben Coates and Irving Fryar are all better choices over Wes Welker. /shrug.

[Scott Weber]

Wes Welker? One year? lol.

[Broken Parachute]

Isn't Steve Grogan the Pats leader in every statistical category for a QB?

[startBBtoday]

Patriots:

Tom Brady
Drew Bledsoe
John Hannah
Andre Tippett
Troy Brown
Kevin Faulk
Tedy Bruschi
Adam Vinatieri
Willie McGinest
Wes Welker (This last one was super-tough, but the amount of impact he had in just his first year on the team and the amount of game-changing plays he made to keep drives alive, etc, makes me feel he is worthy of this spot. Though, I know my mind's just blanking right now and I'm missing someone that should be on here.)

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

what the FUCK.

24 career touchdowns, rushing, receiving and returning. i understand i'm not the person to talk about fumbles (ha.ha.ha.) but, he almost as as many career fumbles as he does touchdowns! one of the ten greatest patriots of all time? what the fuck!

[startBBtoday]

by the way, my patriots list:

Tom Brady
John Hannah
Andre Tippett
Bruce Armstrong
Michael Haynes
Ty Law
Adam Vinatieri
Willie McGinest
Ben Coates
Richard Seymour


honorable mentions: gino cappalletti, stanley morgan, steve grogan, irving fryar, troy brown, tedy bruschi, jim lee hunt, steve nelson, lawyer milloy

[Broken Parachute]

by the way, my patriots list:

Tom Brady
John Hannah
Andre Tippett
Bruce Armstrong
Michael Haynes
Ty Law
Adam Vinatieri
Willie McGinest
Ben Coates
Richard Seymour


honorable mentions: gino cappalletti, stanley morgan, steve grogan, irving fryar, troy brown, tedy bruschi, jim lee hunt, steve nelson, lawyer milloyI always liked Lawyer Milloy.

[startBBtoday]

I always liked Lawyer Milloy.

he's my favorite football player of all time

[Broken Parachute]

he's my favorite football player of all timeHe's vastly underrated.

[anamericangod]

I always liked Lawyer Milloy.

he's my favorite football player of all time

He had a few good years in Buffalo.

[xbrokendownx]

Dolphins:

Dan Marino
Jason Taylor
Mercury Morris
Paul Warfield
Larry Little
Larry Csonka
Mark Clayton
Zach Thomas
Dwight Stephenson
Bob Kuechenberg

[Broken Parachute]

YOU FORGOT ABOUT JOEY


x

[Scott Weber]

I always liked Lawyer Milloy.
U duuuuuuuuub!

[Broken Parachute]

HUSKIESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS reppin

[xbrokendownx]

yankees has probably been beaten to death, so ill go with Knicks and Devils

Devils:

Martin Brodeur
Scott Stevens
Scott Niedermayer
Patrik Elias
John Maclean
Kirk Muller
Ken Daneyko
Bobby Holik
Bruce Driver
Aaron Broten


Knicks:

Patrick Ewing
Earl Monroe
Walt Frazier
Bernard King
Willis Reed
Dave Debusschere
Bill Bradley
Mark Jackson
Allan Houston
Bob Mcadoo

[btbam > you]

My honorable mentions would've been Grogan, Coates, and Law. If you really can't understand the amount of an impact Faulk has made and all the big plays he's made for the team over the years, you haven't paid much attention.

[RickRoll]

Detroit Red Wings, in no order:

Gordie Howe
Steve Yzerman
Ted Lindsay
Alex Delvecchio
Nick Lidstrom
Sid Abel
Terry Sawchuk
Sergei Fedorov
Norm Ullman
Mickey Redmond

That final spot is a tough one to fill. I gave it to Mickey Redmond, 310 of his 428 points came with the Wings and he holds the record for most goals per game in a wings uni at 0.56. Brendan Shanahan could've gotten that spot, too.

The Red Wings are like the Leafs, always super-tough to fill. I'd probably leave Ullman off the list, Redmond too. I think Chris Osgood has to be considered for that last spot. Red Kelly seems tough to leave out also, same with Shanahan.

And even though statistically he may not be the best, I have a hard time not including Kris Draper. To me, he's as synonymous with Detroit as Gordie Howe and Steve Yzerman are, though I am a product of my era.

[bigmike]

The Red Wings are like the Leafs, always super-tough to fill. I'd probably leave Ullman off the list, Redmond too. I think Chris Osgood has to be considered for that last spot. Red Kelly seems tough to leave out also, same with Shanahan.

And even though statistically he may not be the best, I have a hard time not including Kris Draper. To me, he's as synonymous with Detroit as Gordie Howe and Steve Yzerman are, though I am a product of my era.
Yeah, i could've loaded it up with the late 90's guys like Draper/Shanahan and Osgood slipped my mind to be honest. Ullman has more points in a Wings uni than Ted Lindsay did.

But like with the Leafs you could start a 2nd team with guys I left off like Red Kelly, Shanahan, Osgood, Igor Larianov, Reed Larson and maybe Slava Kozlov.

[startBBtoday]

My honorable mentions would've been Grogan, Coates, and Law. If you really can't understand the amount of an impact Faulk has made and all the big plays he's made for the team over the years, you haven't paid much attention.

oh i've payed plenty of attention, i've watching every fucking game that that fucker has played in. i watched him fumble through his first 7 season and i've watched him get old in his last two. he's a decent third down back, but one of the top 10 players in new england patriots history? are you fucking out of your mind?

guys i'm listing are current or future hall of famers who spent their best years in new england and you listed fucking kevin faulk? a back that's never started more than 9 games in a season? who's never rushed for 700 yards in a season? a returner who has NEVER returned a punt for a touchdown. a fucking role player for his 9 seasons in the nfl? you have the audacity to tell me that i haven't paid enough attention?

yes. kevin faulk has meant a lot to these patriots teams, he's given antowain smith, corey dillon and laurence maroney some much needed rest, he's caught a lot of balls out of the backfield and he's given us a lot of first downs on third down, but seriously? you would seriously call him one of the ten best players in new england patriots history? i KNOW i could come up with ten better players on every team that he's ever played for for the patriots.

HE HAS 24 FUMBLES IN HIS CAREER AND 24 TOUCHDOWNS.

you are a fucking dumbass.

and i even like kevin faulk!

[startBBtoday]

p.s. nice line 6 amp, assclown

[emkvetwin]

Yea, and Lombardi is dumb enough to trade him for picks sooner than later.

my friend, i don't think anyone is that stupid. Lombardi's love for draft picks does have a limit.

/Mike Cammalleri = that limit. hopefully.

[emkvetwin]

UCLA BRUINS (Basketball)
Bill Walton
Lew Alcindor
Reggie Miller
Gail Goodrich
Walt Hazzard
Baron Davis
Ed O'Bannon
Sidney Wicks
Marques Johnson
Jordan Farmar
(and honorable mention to John Wooden)

UCLA BRUINS (Everything Else)
Jackie Robinson
Arthur Ashe
Rafer Johnson
Troy Aikman
Karch Kiraly
Jimmy Connors
Jackie Joyner-Kersee
Lisa Fernandez
Gary Beban
Jonathan Ogden

[startBBtoday]

U duuuuuuuuub!

http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/227109.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1934A2752006EF5F0ED4 5903237C22C325B284831B75F48EF45
biggest pads for a rover/strong safety ever

[mht]

the Kansas City Chiefs:

Len Dawson
Emmitt Thomas
Willie Lanier
Bobby Bell
Jan Stenerud
Christian Okoye
Derrick Thomas
Neil Smith
Will Shields
Tony Gonzalez

[startBBtoday]

the Kansas City Chiefs:

Len Dawson
Emmitt Thomas
Willie Lanier
Bobby Bell
Jan Stenerud
Christian Okoye
Derrick Thomas
Neil Smith
Will Shields
Tony Gonzalez

i think priest > okoye

[mht]

i think priest > okoye

Priest was up there for me. I really love him,

but

Okoye had a video game exploited on him for being that awesome:

T_ddO5ENtus

Seriously though, Early 90s Chiefs with him and Barry Word were just what I was brought up into, I mean KC had some winning seasons in the early and mid 90s, he also did a lot for the franchise. I know it's only like a 5 year sample of his playing career, I think if he played more years it would easily be a more justifiable choice. I mainly picked him because watching his highlights is always enjoyable.

[hf57]

Toronto Blue Jays:
Joe Carter
George Bell
Dave Steib
Roberto Alomar
Tony Fernandez
John Olerud
Carlos Delgado
Roy Halladay
Pat Hentgen
Devon White

last two are debatable i guess, i also feel like i'm missing someone?

[startBBtoday]

i might throw jimmy key in there over devon white

[RickRoll]

Toronto Blue Jays:
Joe Carter
George Bell
Dave Steib
Roberto Alomar
Tony Fernandez
John Olerud
Carlos Delgado
Roy Halladay
Pat Hentgen
Devon White

last two are debatable i guess, i also feel like i'm missing someone?

Hmm. I'd say 7 of your first 8 are gimmes, definitely. I'm not sure about Delgado, but we'll include him for argument's sake. Other names I'd consider for the last two, though I'm not sure I disagree with you anyway:

Lloyd Moseby
Jesse Barfield
Jimmy Key
Duane Ward
Tom Henke
Kelly Gruber
Ed Sprague
Pat Borders

I'd probably take both Hentgen and White out(definitely White) and add Barfield and Gruber, but you could make a case for any of the other guys I listed.

[hf57]

Hmm. I'd say 7 of your first 8 are gimmes, definitely. I'm not sure about Delgado, but we'll include him for argument's sake. Other names I'd consider for the last two, though I'm not sure I disagree with you anyway:

Lloyd Moseby
Jesse Barfield
Jimmy Key
Duane Ward
Tom Henke
Kelly Gruber
Ed Sprague
Pat Borders

I'd probably take both Hentgen and White out(definitely White) and add Barfield and Gruber, but you could make a case for any of the other guys I listed.

i said delgado simply because when he did play for the jays he was their best player, offensively at least. And yeah White didn't do much, i mean he was great at defense and had that great catch but with your list i think there are people just as, if not more deserving to take his spot. i'm sticking with hentgen though.

[startBBtoday]

Hmm. I'd say 7 of your first 8 are gimmes, definitely. I'm not sure about Delgado, but we'll include him for argument's sake. Other names I'd consider for the last two, though I'm not sure I disagree with you anyway:

Lloyd Moseby
Jesse Barfield
Jimmy Key
Duane Ward
Tom Henke
Kelly Gruber
Ed Sprague
Pat Borders

I'd probably take both Hentgen and White out(definitely White) and add Barfield and Gruber, but you could make a case for any of the other guys I listed.

no way. i'd include vernon wells in this discussion before those dudes.

[RickRoll]

Don't get me wrong, I *like* Delgado, he just disappeared for long stretches of games at a time and never really represented a "Blue Jay" to me. He signed that whole contract and said that he loved Toronto, then wanted out a few years later because the team wasn't winning. Now he's depressed in New York and playing even worse.

Now that I think about it, I'd take him out, leave Hentgen in, and go Barfield/Gruber. Jimmy Key was one of the best left-handers ever but again, I never really see him as defining the Blue Jays.

[startBBtoday]

i have absolutely no idea how anyone could argue that carlos delgado isn't one of the top 10 blue jays ever.

[RickRoll]

no way. i'd include vernon wells in this discussion before those dudes.

Before Kelly Gruber? I don't think so. Gruber was dynamite defensively and gave it his all every game.

Wells certainly has the talent, but the drive has been noticeably missing, and if this injury trend continues he becomes a harder and harder guy to get behind. If we're talking Jays outfielders I'd still put Shawn Green over Vernon Wells.

[startBBtoday]

Don't get me wrong, I *like* Delgado, he just disappeared for long stretches of games at a time and never really represented a "Blue Jay" to me. He signed that whole contract and said that he loved Toronto, then wanted out a few years later because the team wasn't winning. Now he's depressed in New York and playing even worse.

Now that I think about it, I'd take him out, leave Hentgen in, and go Barfield/Gruber. Jimmy Key was one of the best left-handers ever but again, I never really see him as defining the Blue Jays.

it sounds like your problem is that you don't like delgado. this isn't about who represented his team the best or what they meant for their team, these are the greatest players and there is no doubt that delgado is one of them for the blue jays.

[RickRoll]

Yeah, to me, the discussion of "greatness" to a franchise(not greatness as a whole, obv.) always includes what they meant to the team and how they contributed to the team's successes.

We define it differently and that's cool. Baseball is definitely not my forte either, but I have followed the Jays for years. They're the only MLB team I'd even feel comfortable arguing a list about.

[startBBtoday]

Before Kelly Gruber? I don't think so. Gruber was dynamite defensively and gave it his all every game.

Wells certainly has the talent, but the drive has been noticeably missing, and if this injury trend continues he becomes a harder and harder guy to get behind. If we're talking Jays outfielders I'd still put Shawn Green over Vernon Wells.

well as long as gruber gave it his all in every game...

i think you might be tackling this question wrong.

[RickRoll]

I think our opinions differ on how to tackle this question.

[startBBtoday]

Yeah, to me, the discussion of "greatness" to a franchise(not greatness as a whole, obv.) always includes what they meant to the team and how they contributed to the team's successes.

We define it differently and that's cool. Baseball is definitely not my forte either, but I have followed the Jays for years. They're the only MLB team I'd even feel comfortable arguing a list about.

fair enough, i'm pretty sure that even if you're not much of a stat guy you can see from looking at stats that carlos delgado meant a whole lot more to his team's successes than kelly gruber did.

[RickRoll]

I'm not going to argue stats so I won't try. I'll lose for sure. Haha. I'm just waiting for BigMike to swoop down on this thread and destroy me with knowledge, but Gruber had a big hand in the Jays '92 Series win, won the Silver Slugger/Gold Glove award in the same year('90), and was an all-star the same number of times Delgado was(2).

Delgado has more HR and RBI, obviously, WAY more, but he never led the Jays to the playoffs(worse teams, I know) and their batting avgs. are comparable.

Delgado has better stats, but if you take out HR/RBI and look at Gruber's defense, I wouldn't say the gap is a mile wide.

*backs away from stats discussion slowly*

[startBBtoday]

honestly, looking at the career leaders, if there's any doubt in your mind that carlos delgado is the greatest blue jay of all time, you're probably crazy.

[RickRoll]

Stats-wise, sure, he might be. I couldn't read half of those things anyway. When did baseball turn into the "stat sport"? It makes it so much harder to have a relevant discussion about anything.

I'm sticking with my definition of "great" though. He can have Kelly Gruber's spot if he really wants it though. Haha.

[startBBtoday]

I'm not going to argue stats so I won't try. I'll lose for sure. Haha. I'm just waiting for BigMike to swoop down on this thread and destroy me with knowledge, but Gruber had a big hand in the Jays '92 Series win, won the Silver Slugger/Gold Glove award in the same year('90), and was an all-star the same number of times Delgado was(2).

Delgado has more HR and RBI, obviously, WAY more, but he never led the Jays to the playoffs(worse teams, I know) and their batting avgs. are comparable.

Delgado has better stats, but if you take out HR/RBI and look at Gruber's defense, I wouldn't say the gap is a mile wide.

*backs away from stats discussion slowly*

i'm certainly not going to dive into this fully, but carlos delgado is in the top 10 in the virtually every category for the blue jays other than triples and stolen bases. he leads the blue jays in career home runs, rbi, slugging, ops, runs, total bases, doubles and walks. he's second in obp, games, plate appearances and hits. it's actually much harder to find categories that he's not leading in.

[RickRoll]

Yes yes. What an amazing player, that Delgado.

To be honest, I had no idea he was so dominant in so many categories. I mean, I'm not retarded, I know he was a really great player, I guess Toronto media just makes so much of when people AREN'T playing to expectations that I never thought he hit those sort of heights.

You're definitely right, he's gotta be on the list, if not #1.

[startBBtoday]

Stats-wise, sure, he might be. I couldn't read half of those things anyway. When did baseball turn into the "stat sport"? It makes it so much harder to have a relevant discussion about anything.

I'm sticking with my definition of "great" though. He can have Kelly Gruber's spot if he really wants it though. Haha.

baseball is all about statistics! i hope you're kidding. the greatest part about baseball is statistics. it makes it harder to have a relevant discussion? you mean it makes it harder to prove a point that a player that you like is better than a player that you don't like without any backing whatsoever?

you seem like a nice guy and i'm really not trying to pick a fight. who do you think is the greatest blue jay of all time?

[RickRoll]

I was kidding.

I just feel that, for whatever reason, baseball discussion is intimidating if you don't know all the ins and outs of the statistics of every guy. I think a lot of people would agree with me.

I think there is more to athletes and sports in general than straight stats, and I think that some of that is lost in baseball discussion. There are merits to statistics, naturally, and Billy Beane and Co. have made quite a living off of analyzing them.

I guess I'm just a hockey fan talking here, where success is oftentimes measured in heart and not statistics. For example, when BigMike listed the top Detroit Red Wings of all-time, I proffered Kris Draper as a suggestion. Stats-wise, Draper is nowhere NEAR the top Red Wings of all-time. He has around 300 points in around 900 games, certainly unimpressive. But I wasn't laughed off the discussion because when you think Red Wings, you think Kris Draper. He BLEEDS Red Wings. As a result, most people would think he deserves merit in the discussion. In baseball, when I suggested that Gruber was a true BLUE JAY and lived for the team, it's like I may as well have not even opened my mouth.

And I think baseball players in particular lack that, or they've come to in what seems to be this age of stats. Call me crazy(I think you already have like 4 times), but does heart and loyalty even count in the sport anymore? Anyway, this is probably a discussion for another thread but that's my sorta thoughts on it. Pillage me at will. :P

[startBBtoday]

I was kidding.

I just feel that, for whatever reason, baseball discussion is intimidating if you don't know all the ins and outs of the statistics of every guy. I think a lot of people would agree with me.

I think there is more to athletes and sports in general than straight stats, and I think that some of that is lost in baseball discussion. There are merits to statistics, naturally, and Billy Beane and Co. have made quite a living off of analyzing them.

I guess I'm just a hockey fan talking here, where success is oftentimes measured in heart and not statistics. For example, when BigMike listed the top Detroit Red Wings of all-time, I proffered Kris Draper as a suggestion. Stats-wise, Draper is nowhere NEAR the top Red Wings of all-time. He has around 300 points in around 900 games, certainly unimpressive. But I wasn't laughed off the discussion because when you think Red Wings, you think Kris Draper. He BLEEDS Red Wings. As a result, most people would think he deserves merit in the discussion. In baseball, when I suggested that Gruber was a true BLUE JAY and lived for the team, it's like I may as well have not even opened my mouth.

And I think baseball players in particular lack that, or they've come to in what seems to be this age of stats. Call me crazy(I think you already have like 4 times), but does heart and loyalty even count in the sport anymore? Anyway, this is probably a discussion for another thread but that's my sorta thoughts on it. Pillage me at will. :P

i can certainly see what you're saying, but it's a different discussion. jason varitek has been a team leader and "lived" for the red sox for the past 12 seasons, but that certainly doesn't not make him a better player than manny ramirez or ted williams, nor does it make him one of the 10 best red sox of all time.

kelly gruber was a decent player, he had one great season. the fact that he was one person's opinion of a true blue jay doesn't make him one of the greatest blue jays of all time. you don't induct a player into the hall of fame because they had heart (possibly excluding phil rizzuto).

there's not really a basis of discussion if one person's just saying, well this player cared more about his team than this one. cause couldn't i just come back with, nah, delgado cared way more about the blue jays than kelly gruber? what's proving what? statistics are the basis for argument in most sports, but especially baseball.

heart and loyalty count a lot in baseball and i certainly value it, but when talking about how good a player is, i'll take something concrete like stats over how much heart someone deducts that they put into the game.

[StuGrimson]

I have to laugh at Kelly Gruber being a "true" Blue Jay. He was garbage. He never played hard because he was too afraid of getting hurt. He would miss games at a time with like a scratch on his chin or a stubbed toe.

Stats wise Delgado is the best blue jay of all time, offensively at least. Alomar and Olreud can make claims to that and defensively Devon White and Tony Fernandez too.

If I had to pick 1 "true" Blue Jay who has cared about this team more than anything else and worked his ass off every game and is a true leader its Roy Halladay and nobody else in this era of the team even compares.