ESL/Languages Debate

[Nevuk]

I work at a burger king with a lot of immigrants, most of whom speak better spanish than English. No big deal about it, there are just some conversations I don't understand and pretty much anyone figures out a phrase after hearing it yelled 100x a night ("mas papas freitas por favor" being the best example). However I was reading through the spanish to english dictionary during a down-period trying to figure out some words that were only used occasionally and one of the immigrants who speaks almost perfect english asked me an interesting political question.

Would it be easier for people in the US to learn spanish or for latin americans to learn english?

I thought about it from what I know of the languages, and for me I'm going with americans learning spanish
Its a less complex language to learn for basic conversation (more intuitive, less prescriptive grammar forced onto it like no double negatives or no splitting participles when there is nothing in the language form that prevents it, so a person trying to learn the language won't pick this up except through repetitive practice). However, in either case as long as people are taught at an early age (from 2-7 basically) then picking up any language is fairly easy. Not to mention America is more likely to have the educational resources to accomplish this.

And yes, this actually is a huge issue as this is the first time in the history of the US where the vast majority of the immigrants all speak the same language, and it will probably vastly alter american english in 30 years time. (Irish had gaelic, but as they were already conquered by England english was expected knowledge, and all the other periods of immigration weren't one specific group who shared a language).

[open mind]

just about every other developed country in the world (more or less) successfully teaches their children multiple language in school, and being multi-lingual has many advantages so i'd be for a decent amount of spanish being taught in grade school.

[saysmydoctor]

Spanish is the fastest growing language in this nation.

[Nevuk]

just about every other developed country in the world (more or less) successfully teaches their children multiple language in school, and being multi-lingual has many advantages so i'd be for a decent amount of spanish being taught in grade school.
Yeah, I've heard its far easier to learn another language if you already know more than one. I'd believe it, while I know more words in english than probably 99% of the population, but despite being immersed in spanish I'm still really slow at learning it.
Too bad the nationalistic flag-wavers would never agree to any language being taught but English in our schools, as its patriotic or something. I don't even know the logic there.

[saysmydoctor]

I swear if there is an official language amendment, I will openly riot.

[Nevuk]

Spanish is the fastest growing language in this nation.
That's kind of obvious, though, isn't it?

(not trying to be a dick, but what other language could it even possibly be?)

[Nevuk]

I swear if there is an official language amendment, I will openly riot.
As in English being the official language? Its kind of funny that america doesn't have one despite having used language in oppressive ways (punished slaves for speaking in any language but english, seperated ones who spoke the same language, etc.)

[saysmydoctor]

It was one of those obvious statements that no one in governing elite ever takes to heart when they mention their English Language Amendments, their Must Speak English requirements for immigration, etc. It's obvious. But no one cares.

[saysmydoctor]

As in English being the official language? Its kind of funny that america doesn't have one despite having used language in oppressive ways (punished slaves for speaking in any language but english, seperated ones who spoke the same language, etc.)
Bingo bango.

[open mind]

Yeah, I've heard its far easier to learn another language if you already know more than one. I'd believe it, while I know more words in english than probably 99% of the population, but despite being immersed in spanish I'm still really slow at learning it.
Too bad the nationalistic flag-wavers would never agree to any language being taught but English in our schools, as its patriotic or something. I don't even know the logic there.

it's much easier to pick up languages at a young age then it is at an older age. but the main benefit of multi-lingualism is that it opens up large chunks of the globe for you to really experience, instead of just going there.

what's funny about those nationalistic flag wavers is that their type never seem to have any issues with completely obliterating other cultures and languages in the name of progress.

[Nevuk]

Its kind of weird that most high schools have 2 semesters of a foreign language as a prereq for graduation when that's possibly the worst time to learn another language possible.

[saysmydoctor]

Its kind of weird that most high schools have 2 semesters of a foreign language as a prereq for graduation when that's possibly the worst time to learn another language possible.
Exactly!

[Nevuk]

it's much easier to pick up languages at a young age then it is at an older age. but the main benefit of multi-lingualism is that it opens up large chunks of the globe for you to really experience, instead of just being there.

what's funny about those nationalistic flag wavers is that their type never seem to have any issues with completely obliterating other cultures and languages in the name of progress.
Hmm, american schools usually teach spain spanish, which has some useless aspects dropped in american spanish (Vosotros, heavy use of usted). It woudl open up the globe a lot, but you'd still be distinguishable from any native of the country pretty easily, and the dialects can vary quite a bit.

Nationalistic flag wavers always claim progress, but they seem to... not want it. Really regressing to the good ol salad days.

[open mind]

Its kind of weird that most high schools have 2 semesters of a foreign language as a prereq for graduation when that's possibly the worst time to learn another language possible.

yeah, those classes are just typically a waste of time that don't really teach anything beyond how you properly read the alphabet, and a few key phrases.

[Nevuk]

yeah, those classes are just typically a waste of time that don't really teach anything beyond how you properly read the alphabet, and a few key phrases.
My experience, how to speak spanglish :
say guay (I think its guay... sounds like way) after every sentence you say, no matter if it makes sense or not. (guay means dude)

[open mind]

As in English being the official language? Its kind of funny that america doesn't have one despite having used language in oppressive ways (punished slaves for speaking in any language but english, seperated ones who spoke the same language, etc.)

it always annoys me when people overlook the forced assimilation attempts on various native american cultures that involved beating little kids for speaking the only language they knew.

[open mind]

My experience, how to speak spanglish :
say guay (I think its guay... sounds like way) after every sentence you say, no matter if it makes sense or not. (guay means dude)

think it's spelled que.

[Nevuk]

think it's spelled que.
Que just means what, though. Might be the same word though, but its pronounced very differently. I think a friend said it was actually spelled with a q haha. Weird times.

[open mind]

Que just means what, though. Might be the same word though, but its pronounced very differently. I think a friend said it was actually spelled with a q haha. Weird times.

i know very little spanish, but i understand some yu'pik and can speak a bit of russian.....so you probably know better then me haha.

[Nevuk]

it always annoys me when people overlook the forced assimilation attempts on various native american cultures that involved beating little kids for speaking the only language they knew.
Yep, america has a history of abusing people who speak languages they don't. Reservations just made it worse. Of course, I'm the descendent of probably one of the worst groups of native americans ever, Cherokee, who had their own written language and were civilized enough to act like southern aristocrats, right down to the slavery and supreme court cases. :/

[Nevuk]

i know very little spanish, but i understand some yu'pik and can speak a bit of russian.....so you probably know better then me haha.
yeah haha I'll get pwned by some random regular who does eventually, as I'm phoneticizing like half the spanish words I'm speaking at the moment.

[open mind]

Yep, america has a history of abusing people who speak languages they don't. Reservations just made it worse. Of course, I'm the descendent of probably one of the worst groups of native americans ever, Cherokee, who had their own written language and were civilized enough to act like southern aristocrats, right down to the slavery and supreme court cases. :/

i didn't know that the cherokee had slaves....what supreme court cases are you refering to though?

[Nevuk]

i didn't know that the cherokee had slaves....what supreme court cases are you refering to though?
The cherokee took the government's case for their land to the supreme court and won, but Jackson said "fuck it" and went trail of tears. However, as far as the slaves go I don't think it was actually that widespread and those ones are unlikely to have been related to me (as I'm descended from the ones who basically just moved deeper into the mountains, the eastern band ones. They stayed and basically fought until the government got bored, captured and killed their leader and let the rest of them stay. And glancing at wiki, there's very little about them having slaves, although it does make mention of when they officially freed all of them in 1866).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worcester_v._Georgia is the supreme court case.
actually, I'm thinking of this :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherokee_Nation_v._Georgia

edit : (its a combination of the two cases)

[redalibi]

I think everyone should put their effort in learning both languages. But I think it's key to teach children another language for intellectual gain and open their minds to other cultures. This "patriotic" thing gets out of hand sometimes.

And "guey" is a derogative term that lost it's context because it's use so damn much.

[Nevuk]

I think everyone should put their effort in learning both languages. But I think it's key to teach children another language for intellectual gain and open their minds to other cultures. This "patriotic" thing gets out of hand sometimes.

And "guey" is a derogative term that lost it's context because it's use so damn much.
Ah, so that's what it is. Yeah, they say it to pretty much everyone, even each other.

[open mind]

The cherokee took the government's case for their land to the supreme court and won, but Jackson said "fuck it" and went trail of tears. However, as far as the slaves go I don't think it was actually that widespread and those ones are unlikely to have been related to me (as I'm descended from the ones who basically just moved deeper into the mountains, the eastern band ones. They stayed and basically fought until the government got bored, captured and killed their leader and let the rest of them stay. And glancing at wiki, there's very little about them having slaves, although it does make mention of when they officially freed all of them in 1866).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worcester_v._Georgia is the supreme court case.
actually, I'm thinking of this :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherokee_Nation_v._Georgia

edit : (its a combination of the two cases)

oh ok, i thought you meant that the cherokee nation went to the supreme court to keep their slaves or something because you called them the worst.

[Nevuk]

oh ok, i thought you meant that the cherokee nation went to the supreme court to keep their slaves or something because you called them the worst.
oh haha. No, I meant that in a literal meaning, as in they were terrible at being "native" and basically jumped at the first chance to become something else, likely to their detriment.

[Mercy Medical]

I'm all for American's learning multiple languages at a young age, but I personally believe that if you are going to immigrate to this country you should learn English. If I were to move to Mexico or Germany or Japan, I would definitely put some effort into learning the native tongue there. I just feel like it's common sense.

[Nevuk]

I think everyone should put their effort in learning both languages. But I think it's key to teach children another language for intellectual gain and open their minds to other cultures. This "patriotic" thing gets out of hand sometimes.

And "guey" is a derogative term that lost it's context because it's use so damn much.
Oh, and this does explain why "Ci guey" means yes sir. That's brilliant hahaha

[open mind]

oh haha. No, I meant that in a literal meaning, as in they were terrible at being "native" and basically jumped at the first chance to become something else, likely to their detriment.

well trying to adjust to the inevitable as painlessly as possible wasn't really a bad idea........it was the getting totally fucked over by the government part that ruined things.
if the cherokee had been treated fairly it would have shown other tribes that peaceful assimilation was possible and much physical, spiritual, and cultural conflict might have been avoided.

[Nevuk]

well trying to adjust to the inevitable as painlessly as possible wasn't really a bad idea........it was the getting totally fucked over by the government part that ruined things.
if the cherokee had been treated fairly it would have shown other tribes that peaceful assimilation was possible and much physical/spiritual/cultural conflict and bloodshed might have been avoided.
True, but on the flipside the cherokee were probably the only tribe large enough to do anything to the US even at that time militarily speaking and they had some of the worst terrain to be unfamiliar in. Still, its all theorizing, and trying that route was definitely smart in the sense that they realized everyone who hadn't tried that one had gotten totally fucked over. I just remembered, the alaskan native experience must've been totally different due to the transference from russia to america?

[redalibi]

Oh, and this does explain why "Ci guey" means yes sir. That's brilliant hahaha

It is pretty funny because guey is someone who is a fool

If you are using "Si guey" being sarcastic...it means whatever
Or you can use it to be serious too

I personally don't like to talk like that in spanish..it only comes out when I've been drinking

[open mind]

True, but on the flipside the cherokee were probably the only tribe large enough to do anything to the US even at that time militarily speaking and they had some of the worst terrain to be unfamiliar in. Still, its all theorizing, and trying that route was definitely smart in the sense that they realized everyone who hadn't tried that one had gotten totally fucked over. I just remembered, the alaskan native experience must've been totally different due to the transference from russia to america?

the russians mainly stuck to the coast as they were mostly looking to trade and hunt to get furs. there was a bloody massacre of an aleut village......and there was a certain level of mistreatment, and exploitation by certain ships but compared to the treatment the natives recieved from the u.s. government it wasn't so bad because they established schools, devised alphabets, inter-married, sent some natives to universities in russia, were tolerant of the cultures, and converted the population without shoving religion down everyone's throats.
when russia sold sovereignty to the u.s. the u.s. government assumed all the natives were just a bunch of ignorant, heathen, savages so they were completely intolerant of native cultures and decided everything had to be re-learned in the american way.........despite the fact that alot villages were already filled with literate, christian, industrious, map making, sea captains.

[Nevuk]

the russians mainly stuck to the coast as they were mostly looking to trade and hunt to get furs. there was a bloody massacre of an aleut village......and there was a certain level of mistreatment, and exploitation by certain ships but compared to the treatment the natives recieved from the u.s. government it wasn't so bad because they established schools, devised alphabets, inter-married, sent some natives to universities in russia, were tolerant of the cultures, and converted the population without shoving religion down everyone's throats.
when russia sold sovereignty to the u.s. the u.s. government assumed all the natives were just a bunch of ignorant, heathen, savages so they were completely intolerant of native cultures and decided everything had to be re-learned in the american way.........despite the fact that alot villages were already filled with literate, christian, industrious, map making, sea captains.
Yep, sounds like good ol american ways. The logic they used was because you spoke russian, right?
And russia converted the natives to christianity? That seems somewhat... the reverse of what their goal would've been.

[open mind]

Yep, sounds like good ol american ways. The logic they used was because you spoke russian, right?
And russia converted the natives to christianity? That seems somewhat... the reverse of what their goal would've been.

most of the natives that had contact with russians knew russian to one degree or another, and the alphabets the russians devised for the different native people's were based on the cyrillic alphabet, but no, the natives still spoke thier own languages for the most part.
you've gotta remember this was all pre-communist revolution.