Classic.

[Jason Tate]

Bush vs Bush (http://www.comedycentral.com/mp/play.php?reposid=/multimedia/tds/stewart/jon_7131.html&setplayer=real_media) by Jon Stewart and George Bush's words (http://www.comedycentral.com/mp/play.php?reposid=/multimedia/tds/stewart/jon_9027.html).

[Adrian Villagomez]

The Daily Show is hilarious. Political humor ownz (especially when Bush is on the recieving end).

[Jason Tate]

All the videos online are hillarious:
http://www.comedycentral.com/mp/browsevideos.php?s=ds

Daily Show: Compassion Play
http://www.comedycentral.com/mp/play.php?reposid=/multimedia/tds/headlines/9027.html

Zell on Earth:
http://www.comedycentral.com/mp/play.php?reposid=/multimedia/tds/headlines/9028.html

The Daily Show with Jon Stewart (Mon - Thurs 11p /10c)

[Lueda Alia]

haha yay you posted it :D

and yes, all the vidoes are freakin hilarious.

[hinkelmanf]

zell on earth is my favorite

[wakepunk]

Flip flopper!

Jon Stewart is my hero.

[Jason Tate]

zell on earth is my favorite
"I wish we lived in the day and age where I could challenge you to a duel."

[aolsux]

The Daily Show is hilarious. Political humor ownz (especially when Bush is on the recieving end).
yeah

[aolsux]

"I wish we lived in the day and age where I could challenge you to a duel."
yeah that was hilarious

[Yeti777]

I think a lot of my friends get their news from JUST the Daily Show. And I'm ok with that.

[ShoeSh1ne]

Looks like that flip-flopper argument is out of the window. Also a little something I heard on The Daily Show: Usually there are big issues in an election. This year it is a war. The Republican party is making it about a war that happened 35 years ago and not the one we are fighting now.

[wakepunk]

Looks like that flip-flopper argument is out of the window.

Mhmm...sure, tell that to the Republicans, and the arrogant close-minded people on this board.

[xLOCUST REIGNx]

Looks like that flip-flopper argument is out of the window. Also a little something I heard on The Daily Show: Usually there are big issues in an election. This year it is a war. The Republican party is making it about a war that happened 35 years ago and not the one we are fighting now.
well, Kerry is also constantly saying that his "war experience" would make him a good president (not exact words, obviously).

[xStareAtThesunx]

I think a lot of my friends get their news from JUST the Daily Show. And I'm ok with that.

haha yeah thats the only way a bunch of my friends would ever be up to date on news

[quitmyscene]

abstinence 2004: no bush. no dick.

vote well...

[hinkelmanf]

"I wish we lived in the day and age where I could challenge you to a duel."


lol man there's no way he could have been thinking clearly when he said that, what'd he expect was gonna happen when he went on a show called hardball? they sure as hell werent gonna ask him how lincoln's election changed his life

[Guest]

it hurts to break this to alot of you...but unfortunately, all politicians are flip floppers. daaaaaang. i know, harsh.

[takingbackNJ]

well, Kerry is also constantly saying that his "war experience" would make him a good president (not exact words, obviously).

war experience? pssh yeah right. fuck John Kerry.

[Lueda Alia]

war experience? pssh yeah right. fuck John Kerry.
I guess you don't support the troops in Iraq then, huh? I mean... war? pshhh, fuck them, they're just acting!

[takingbackNJ]

I guess you don't support the troops in Iraq then, huh? I mean... war? pshhh, fuck them, they're just acting!

of course i support the troops, i dont support Kerry because he didnt even fight, and he LIED about getting a purple heart.

[Lueda Alia]

of course i support the troops, i dont support Kerry because he didnt even fight, and he LIED about getting a purple heart.
and you know that for a fact because the people who were NOT on his boat, said so, right?

[TimeOfYourLife]

That Hardball clip shows how stupid Chris Matthews truly is. As for the other clips, it shows how much can be done with editing.

[ihatepunk]

George Bush makes Dan Quayle look like a Mensa.

[70x7]

Most people hate Bush because of the war. Most people don't have thought out and intelligent opinions on this matter like Jason does. The fact is that John Kerry was on the committee that prescribed to Bush to go to war, and was one of the big supporters of war.

On a side note, John Kerry promises more jobs, but my question is how he is going to go about doing this? He can't go to every single unemployed person and give them a job. He cannot simply invent jobs out of the air. I read a report that a reason unemployment is higher than people would like is not just because jobs are being taken out of America, but also because Americans today are working more efficiently, and working longer hours. Plus, who is to say that Kerry can bring those jobs back. Taxing the super wealthy won't hurt them. Just like it won't hurt him or John Edwards. Whether you are a wealthy company, or the most welathy ticket ever (Kerry and Edwards), no amount of taxes will affect you. Because no matter how much the taxes rise for the rich, they will still have enough to do what they want. They may just take their business somewhere other than India, to some impovershed thrid world country, where they can pay their workers ever less.

If Kerry wins, it will also be interesting to see if he does pull the troops out of Iraq, and how fast. And then to see how people's views of America change. If we now are compassionate, or are cowards who cannot finish what we started.

The outcome of the Swift Boat Ads is going to be interesting. We have two groups claiming other things. Both could have Party backing, nobody knows, so it is kind of pointless to speculate. You can argue it either way, and nobody will get anywhere on it excpet just becing mad at each other.

About Bin Laden. If we happen to find him before the election, everybody is going to say that he had already been found, and Bush was having him held until the time was right to improve his rating, and same if WMD's happen to be found all the sudden in Iraq. It's sad that today there is so much utter hatred between Americans because of political parties. And the thing is the a lot of those people don't really know why they hate, they just know that their parents do or their peers do, so it is the thing to do. People don't know how good we have it in this country. I cannot say whether we would be better off if Kerry were president, but I have a feeling we would not, simply because I believe we would be safer if Bush were President (Kerry says we need more support for our troops and National Defense, yet he voted against allocating more funds towards both). Economically I feel we would be better off with Bush too. The economy dropped because the technology bubble burst. Bush's tax cuts have honestly saved our economy. I feel that these tax cuts help pump more money into our economy which would create new jobs. And if these taxes end up being a form of wealth redistribution, then that would do nothing but promote laziness, and make more jobs move out of the US.

This is just what I think, I'm not saying I'm right, so before you talk shit about it/me at least just think about it

[takingbackNJ]

Most people hate Bush because of the war. Most people don't have thought out and intelligent opinions on this matter like Jason does. The fact is that John Kerry was on the committee that prescribed to Bush to go to war, and was one of the big supporters of war.

On a side note, John Kerry promises more jobs, but my question is how he is going to go about doing this? He can't go to every single unemployed person and give them a job. He cannot simply invent jobs out of the air. I read a report that a reason unemployment is higher than people would like is not just because jobs are being taken out of America, but also because Americans today are working more efficiently, and working longer hours. Plus, who is to say that Kerry can bring those jobs back. Taxing the super wealthy won't hurt them. Just like it won't hurt him or John Edwards. Whether you are a wealthy company, or the most welathy ticket ever (Kerry and Edwards), no amount of taxes will affect you. Because no matter how much the taxes rise for the rich, they will still have enough to do what they want. They may just take their business somewhere other than India, to some impovershed thrid world country, where they can pay their workers ever less.

If Kerry wins, it will also be interesting to see if he does pull the troops out of Iraq, and how fast. And then to see how people's views of America change. If we now are compassionate, or are cowards who cannot finish what we started.

The outcome of the Swift Boat Ads is going to be interesting. We have two groups claiming other things. Both could have Party backing, nobody knows, so it is kind of pointless to speculate. You can argue it either way, and nobody will get anywhere on it excpet just becing mad at each other.

About Bin Laden. If we happen to find him before the election, everybody is going to say that he had already been found, and Bush was having him held until the time was right to improve his rating, and same if WMD's happen to be found all the sudden in Iraq. It's sad that today there is so much utter hatred between Americans because of political parties. And the thing is the a lot of those people don't really know why they hate, they just know that their parents do or their peers do, so it is the thing to do. People don't know how good we have it in this country. I cannot say whether we would be better off if Kerry were president, but I have a feeling we would not, simply because I believe we would be safer if Bush were President (Kerry says we need more support for our troops and National Defense, yet he voted against allocating more funds towards both). Economically I feel we would be better off with Bush too. The economy dropped because the technology bubble burst. Bush's tax cuts have honestly saved our economy. I feel that these tax cuts help pump more money into our economy which would create new jobs. And if these taxes end up being a form of wealth redistribution, then that would do nothing but promote laziness, and make more jobs move out of the US.

This is just what I think, I'm not saying I'm right, so before you talk shit about it/me at least just think about it

well said.

[dude45230]

George Bush makes Dan Quayle look like a Mensa.

...and Al Gore does the same for both... :p

[Lueda Alia]

Lets see, people are scared for their security. When people are fearful, they stop thinking. The Republican party is able to get the public to ignore Bush's horrible domestic record on 90% of the issues and instead divert focus to national security and keeping people safe. As long as the American public lives in fear, Bush's chance of being reelected stay high.


That's all. And he has done NOTHING about your country whatsoever.

[hinkelmanf]

of course i support the troops, i dont support Kerry because he didnt even fight, and he LIED about getting a purple heart.

that's right, it's not like they keep records or anything about that stuff

[venus/bacchus]

George Bush makes Dan Quayle look like a Mensa.
although it was pretty humorous, you do know mensa is an organization, so one person can't be one right?

[BrandNew20]

of course i support the troops, i dont support Kerry because he didnt even fight, and he LIED about getting a purple heart.

Really? Because I'm pretty sure he actually did recieve them...but if you say he didn't...

[BrandNew20]

that's right, it's not like they keep records or anything about that stuff

damn, you beat me to it.

[PunkVideoGuys]

Looks like that flip-flopper argument is out of the window. Also a little something I heard on The Daily Show: Usually there are big issues in an election. This year it is a war. The Republican party is making it about a war that happened 35 years ago and not the one we are fighting now.


do you honestly think that some online clips from the daily show are going to trash the flip-flop argument? Honestly...
By the way Kerry is the one who constantly brings up Vietnam his 3 purple hearts and all, ya know?

[Lueda Alia]

hmmmmmmm... how about we talk about Bush's service in Vietnam....


... oh, wait. there wasn't one.

[dude45230]

It's sad that today there is so much utter hatred between Americans because of political parties. And the thing is the a lot of those people don't really know why they hate, they just know that their parents do or their peers do, so it is the thing to do. People don't know how good we have it in this country.

Amen. I really wish the current state of party politics was a lot better.

[BrandNew20]

Amen. I really wish the current state of party politics was a lot better.

True, America is a very polarized nation right now...which is scary to think about.

[70x7]

Lets see, people are scared for their security. When people are fearful, they stop thinking. The Republican party is able to get the public to ignore Bush's horrible domestic record on 90% of the issues and instead divert focus to national security and keeping people safe. As long as the American public lives in fear, Bush's chance of being reelected stay high.


That's all. And he has done NOTHING about your country whatsoever.

Excluding the war in Iraq, what else has Bush done that is so bad everybody abroad and domestically hates him. Everybody thinks John Kennedy is such a great man, but what about the Bay of Pigs. It's not just a problem with Republicans, though it may just be a prejudice against them. I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but I'm curious about it. I personally don't think it matter who was President during these events, I think war was inevitable, regardless of President

[70x7]

hmmmmmmm... how about we talk about Bush's service in Vietnam....


... oh, wait. there wasn't one.

There seems to be some questions about Kerry's as well. Let's not forget about Bill Clinton's.

[dude45230]

Excluding the war in Iraq, what else has Bush done that is so bad everybody abroad and domestically hates him. Everybody thinks John Kennedy is such a great man, but what about the Bay of Pigs. It's not just a problem with Republicans, though it may just be a prejudice against them. I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but I'm curious about it. I personally don't think it matter who was President during these events, I think war was inevitable, regardless of President

This brings up a really good point. Is war ever popular when its going on? When the war is first declared, it's usually by popular demand (e.g. Bush's record-setting 95% approval rating after the declaration of the "war on terror"). But when we're in the ugly thick of it and people are actually dying (hard to believe, but that's what happens in war), no one likes it. So, really, we're all the flip-floppers we accuse Bush and Kerry to be. When a country is at war, you've got to stick it out to the end, you can't back out when reality hits you. Granted, the primary argument against Bush is that he went into Iraq unjustified and on a whim (looking for WMDs). I'm too tired to try and think of a response to this, so I'm going to concede it for now and let somebody else take up the argument.

[BrandNew20]

Excluding the war in Iraq, what else has Bush done that is so bad everybody abroad and domestically hates him. Everybody thinks John Kennedy is such a great man, but what about the Bay of Pigs. It's not just a problem with Republicans, though it may just be a prejudice against them. I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but I'm curious about it. I personally don't think it matter who was President during these events, I think war was inevitable, regardless of President

Bush's policy on foreign affairs have left America a much more insecure nation to live in and his fiscal policy favors the rich, by using the trickle down effect. I didn't work for Reagan and certainly isn't working right now- Thats why I won't be voting for Bush.

[BrandNew20]

There seems to be some questions about Kerry's as well. Let's not forget about Bill Clinton's.

Bill Clinton isn't currently running for president. Not all democrats think that Clinton was the greatest president ever.

[hinkelmanf]

no one seemed to think dick and bush was such a good combination when clinton was president, so why do they now?

some may get the joke... some may not

[dude45230]

no one seemed to think dick and bush was such a good combination when clinton was president, so why do they now?

some may get the joke... some may not


HAHAHAHA

Good call.

[70x7]

Bill Clinton isn't currently running for president. Not all democrats think that Clinton was the greatest president ever.

But he was President for 8 years, and nobody was so so hellbent against him because of it.

[cal1082]

daily show is funny i just hope no one uses the daily show to form any political thought or let it affect your thinking at all.

[Jason Tate]

Hmmmm.... assault rifle ban, anyone, anyone .. 4 hours until it's up -- guess who didn't renew it!

[70x7]

Bush's policy on foreign affairs have left America a much more insecure nation to live in and his fiscal policy favors the rich, by using the trickle down effect. I didn't work for Reagan and certainly isn't working right now- Thats why I won't be voting for Bush.

That's why many consider Reagan's time as president as one of the most prosperous ever. I'm not positive but I believe the economy really came alive under Reagan and prospered. America is like Americans in that they are way too worried what everybody else thinks about them, and wants to have some image, even though we should only be concerned with ourselves.

[Jason Tate]

daily show is funny i just hope no one uses the daily show to form any political thought or let it affect your thinking at all.
Because it's all LIES! LIES I tell you. Damn people who use their own words to look like morons! They were all faked and tricked! LIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[thewk]

undeniably witty.
but pretty old.

[Jason Tate]

That's why many consider Reagan's time as president as one of the most prosperous ever. I'm not positive but I believe the economy really came alive under Reagan and prospered. America is like Americans in that they are way too worried what everybody else thinks about them, and wants to have some image, even though we should only be concerned with ourselves.
"His economic legacy was mainly destructive, and especially so for the world's poor and our own working class. Among postwar administrations, who had the best record on economic growth? The answer is Kennedy-Johnson (49 percent over eight years), followed by Clinton (34 percent), followed by Reagan (32 percent). Among postwar two-term presidencies, Reagan beats out only Eisenhower (21 percent) and Nixon-Ford (24 percent). Call him the best of the Republicans, if you want.

The unemployment rate stood at 6.6 percent when Kennedy took office and at 3.4 percent when Johnson left it. The average over their eight years was 4.8 percent. When Clinton came in, unemployment was at 7.4 percent; it averaged 5.2 percent during his two terms and fell to 3.9 percent by the end. And for Reagan? Unemployment stood at 7.5 percent at his inauguration, and it averaged that same 7.5 percent during his entire eight years. The jobless rate was 5.4 percent when Reagan left office.

Inflation did come down -- from just over 10 percent in the oil crisis year of 1980 to just over 3 percent in 1983. But at whose expense? Here the correct contrast is with FDR, who controlled inflation while doubling output over four years in World War II. In the process, Roosevelt leveled the pay distribution and created the modern American middle class.

Reagan's disinflation came from unemployment over 10 percent, from his attack on unions, and from high interest rates, which drove up the dollar and cheapened imports. Those measures bankrupted much of the manufacturing belt. They damaged the middle class. And they created a vast trade imbalance and a rising external debt whose consequences haunt us still. Precisely what Roosevelt built, in other words, Reagan did much to destroy.

Mythmaking especially surrounds Reagan's economic ideas, where memory blurs reality into romance. In truth Reagan's economic team was a shotgun marriage between ideologues, monetarists and supply-siders who couldn't stand one another. There was even a good-humored (though conservative) Keynesian mixed in -- Murray Weidenbaum, the first chairman of Reagan's Council of Economic Advisors. "

[Sureshot182]

i'm not saying those videos aren't funny or anything, but i hope people aren't losing sight of sept. 11th. i watched another documentary on it tonight, and i remembered what it felt like that day to watch innocent people die and suffer. and also the heroics and sense of community from americans. i also, for the first time in a long time, got very mad again. i'm not saying the war in iraq is justified or right, but the fuckers who did that deserve to have their asses blown away. being american isn't all that bad.

[70x7]

Like I said, Jason knows his shit, but a lot of people I've heard speak, have been conservatives. It's all relative I suppose

[BrandNew20]

That's why many consider Reagan's time as president as one of the most prosperous ever. I'm not positive but I believe the economy really came alive under Reagan and prospered. America is like Americans in that they are way too worried what everybody else thinks about them, and wants to have some image, even though we should only be concerned with ourselves.

For some it was prosperous, yes. But it was also a time when the rich became richer and the poor became poorer. The trickle down effect doesn't work for this reason-it assumes that all wealthy people own some sort of business in which to enlarge and it also assumes that the rich who do own the businesses would want to expand their business(or pay their employees more, which is even less likely), rather than just spending it for their own good. If you give the money to the middle and lower classes, they need the money in order to continue on the process of their daily lives. They need to buy goods and hire people(such as builders) to do skilled work for them. In short, more money gets to the people who need it the most faster this way.

[billcom6]

how many scene points do people get for slobbin the daily show? i forgot

im pretty sure its easier to get some by talking about how aweseome garden state is

[BrandNew20]

Like I said, Jason knows his shit, but a lot of people I've heard speak, have been conservatives. It's all relative I suppose

If you were refering to this site, there's tons of conservatives here and pretty much all of them know their shit too...makes for good discussion.

[dude45230]

Well, keep in mind, the majority of Reagan's presidency was spent ending the Cold War which was being fought solely by who could create the most and best weapons the quickest. The accelerated development of weapons definately did a number on the economy, but just keep in mind it was Reagan's priority to end this thing. Remember, we won because we had the stronger economy to begin with and therefore the only one that could handle the extreme stress the accelerated defense development puts on it.

[xLOCUST REIGNx]

The bottom line is: Both Kerry and Bush suck in differnet ways. I consider Bush to be the lesser of the two evils, but he definitely has his problems too. His amnesty plan with Mexico is just plain retarded.

[bleedingemo]

of course i support the troops, i dont support Kerry because he didnt even fight, and he LIED about getting a purple heart.

wow, you have to be the biggest fucking dumbass on the face of this planet. the military has documented that John Kerry earned a silver star and THREE purple hearts, not just one. how did he not fight? he was on a swift boat, which was the MOST dangerous duty for soldiers in Vietnam, and any veteran of that war will tell you that. he saved one of his crew member's lives in the line of fire, when it would have been much safer, and more prudent to just leave him to die. John Kerry is a hero of the Vietnam war, and you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You should be ashamed of yourself. Even the President has admitting that John Kerry served honorably in Vietnam. If you don't want to support someone because they didn't fight, don't support the President, he didn't do jack shit, and ran away from the military multiple times.

[70x7]

My main problem with taxing the rich is because the rich got that money from hard work. Even if it's inheriteted, somebody worked hard to get it. People studied hard in school, worked hard at work and excelled, etc... To tax people for working hard and following their dream is silly if you ask me. You can make parallels socially to taxing money people inherited. If you promote working hard, why should the people who do it be penalized. I'm not saying "fuck you, it's mine" I'm just saying what's the incentive to excel if the reward for it is taken away.

[dude45230]

wow, you have to be the biggest fucking dumbass on the face of this planet. the military has documented that John Kerry earned a silver star and THREE purple hearts, not just one. how did he not fight? he was on a swift boat, which was the MOST dangerous duty for soldiers in Vietnam, and any veteran of that war will tell you that. he saved one of his crew member's lives in the line of fire, when it would have been much safer, and more prudent to just leave him to die. John Kerry is a hero of the Vietnam war, and you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You should be ashamed of yourself. Even the President has admitting that John Kerry served honorably in Vietnam. If you don't want to support someone because they didn't fight, don't support the President, he didn't do jack shit, and ran away from the military multiple times.

Nice; way to rattle off your mouth and have nothing concrete come out. That takes some skill.

[70x7]

If you were refering to this site, there's tons of conservatives here and pretty much all of them know their shit too...makes for good discussion.

I was talking about people who actually were older than 5 years old when Reagan was President so they could actually base it on something other than they read in a textbook. It's not like the stuff I'm talking about is made up.

[BrandNew20]

My main problem with taxing the rich is because the rich got that money from hard work. Even if it's inheriteted, somebody worked hard to get it. People studied hard in school, worked hard at work and excelled, etc... To tax people for working hard and following their dream is silly if you ask me. You can make parallels socially to taxing money people inherited. If you promote working hard, why should the people who do it be penalized. I'm not saying "fuck you, it's mine" I'm just saying what's the incentive to excel if the reward for it is taken away.

True, and I think thats a logical view to have, its just that I don't think now was the right time for the rich to be recieving a tax cut, especially while we are at war.

[cal1082]

Because it's all LIES! LIES I tell you. Damn people who use their own words to look like morons! They were all faked and tricked! LIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not saying it's all lies, but I am suggesting there's obviously more accredited places to get political insight than from Comedy Central. Wouldnt you agree? Also, if I'm not mistaken, haven't you criticized Fox News?

I can't watch the video, but do they simply takes snippets from Bush's speech in the videos?

[bleedingemo]

Nice; way to rattle off your mouth and have nothing concrete come out. That takes some skill.

wait, i missed the part where i didn't say anything concrete..

[BrandNew20]

I was talking about people who actually were older than 5 years old when Reagan was President so they could actually base it on something other than they read in a textbook. It's not like the stuff I'm talking about is made up.

ah alright, but remember, as people age its not unusual for them to become more conservative.

[dude45230]

wait, i missed the part where i didn't say anything concrete..

Well, from the context of what you said, you didn't say anything we couldn't have gathered from watching party-funded commercials on NBC. Plus, I get really pissed off when people start name-calling in a political discussion ("biggest fucking dumbass", for example) or personally attacking ("you ought to be ashamed of yourself" to cite another one). That's not necessary and immature

[dude45230]

I was talking about people who actually were older than 5 years old when Reagan was President so they could actually base it on something other than they read in a textbook. It's not like the stuff I'm talking about is made up.


sorry about the back-to-back post here.

haha, yeah that kinda applies to me. So what i'm saying doesn't really have any basis if my textbooks were full of propoganda. More power to you, sir.

[InsomniaticRadi]

And they're saying Kerry flip flops. Geeze, now crats can't just reply with "well Bush lies allot" now he's a killing, flip floping, lieing cowboy! YE HAW!

[bleedingemo]

Well, from the context of what you said, you didn't say anything we couldn't have gathered from watching party-funded commercials on NBC. Plus, I get really pissed off when people start name-calling in a political discussion ("biggest fucking dumbass", for example) or personally attacking ("you ought to be ashamed of yourself" to cite another one). That's not necessary and immature

point taken, but it still remains that John Kerry's record in Vietnam and his being awarded the medals that he was awarded speaks for itself.

[TimeOfYourLife]

Ever notice how about 70% of people in here are liberal and about 30% are conservative?

Ever wonder how the balance evens out (country is split near 50-50)?

The 70% - 30% balance turns into more of a 50-50 balance when a good number of people become smarter and rethink their position.

[ohlookitspaul]

Ever notice how about 70% of people in here are liberal and about 30% are conservative?

Ever wonder how the balance evens out (country is split near 50-50)?

The 70% - 30% balance turns into more of a 50-50 balance when a good number of people become smarter and rethink their position.
that was a completely pointless post. basically, you semi-subtlely called all liberals idiots.

[dude45230]

point taken, but it still remains that John Kerry's record in Vietnam and his being awarded the medals that he was awarded speaks for itself.

Yeah, I agree, and i'm definately wary of the G.O.P.'s attacks on his bravery. I honestly don't doubt he was a hero in that war; there are too many that have gone unrecognized.

[ShoeSh1ne]

do you honestly think that some online clips from the daily show are going to trash the flip-flop argument? Honestly...

It should. Did you watch the clip?

[bleedingemo]

Ever notice how about 70% of people in here are liberal and about 30% are conservative?

Ever wonder how the balance evens out (country is split near 50-50)?

The 70% - 30% balance turns into more of a 50-50 balance when a good number of people become smarter and rethink their position.

i'm not sure how true that is. you're implying that the democratic position isn't smart. which, of course, is just an opinion. i'm sure there are people who have thought it through, and remain liberal. plus, a good number of the members of this forum are too young to vote.

[cal1082]

point taken, but it still remains that John Kerry's record in Vietnam and his being awarded the medals that he was awarded speaks for itself.

I know everyone's dying for my opinion on Kerry and his war record :wink3: j/k. Truth is I dont care. I have no reason to believe the swift boat guys over Kerry and no reason to believe Kerry over the swift boat guys. On the other hand, I'll give Kerry the benefit of the doubt because he did go, and recieved the medals.

It is fair game to criticize his stance on the war when he came back though, and that's what the swift boat guys should have done since the beginning if they wanted to attack him.

[rellish91]

Ever notice how about 70% of people in here are liberal and about 30% are conservative?

Ever wonder how the balance evens out (country is split near 50-50)?

The 70% - 30% balance turns into more of a 50-50 balance when a good number of people become smarter and rethink their position.

Its because the people on here want to be punk and radical...its actually more like 30, 30, 30...with the independent 30 % determining the elections every 4 years.

[bleedingemo]

Yeah, I agree, and i'm definately wary of the G.O.P.'s attacks on his bravery. I honestly don't doubt he was a hero in that war; there are too many that have gone unrecognized.

agreed

[ohlookitspaul]

Its because the people on here want to be punk and radical...

that's not necessarily true. many people here have liberal leanings based on their beliefs and values.

[TimeOfYourLife]

that was a completely pointless post. basically, you semi-subtlely called all liberals idiots.


The point is this:

The collective opinion of the country is split evenly.
The collective opinion of this board is swayed toward Kerry.

Is it that people on this board are so much smarter than the general population, or is it vice versa?

Something to think about.

[thebestkylever]

i saw a video on ebaum's world awhile back of g.w. drunk... and he seemed like a very witty and articulate man. if he were like that all the time, id probably vote for him. :)

[dude45230]

The point is this:

The collective opinion of the country is split evenly.
The collective opinion of this board is swayed toward Kerry.

Is it that people on this board are so much smarter than the general population, or is it vice versa?

Something to think about.

I don't think political alignment is that connected to intelligence. Political beliefs come from one's convictions and views on morality and ethics. I guess you could say somebody who is more educated might have a better idea of what set of beliefs is closer to objective truth, but in terms of this election, i don't think its gonna do you much good.

[BrandNew20]

Is it that people on this board are so much smarter than the general population, or is it vice versa?.

I would say that just by participating in a political disscussion such as this one, people here already care about politics more than the general population, and since they care are usually more informed on the issues.

[ihatepunk]

although it was pretty humorous, you do know mensa is an organization, so one person can't be one right?

yes it is an organization and it also can be how you refer to someone in that organization. and i wasn't trying to be humorous, i was merely making an observation, but i appreciate your compliment.

[BrandNew20]

Its because the people on here want to be punk and radical...

Being a democrat is hardly a punk or radical belief.

[Jason Tate]

Being a democrat is hardly a punk or radical belief.
Very true.

[dude45230]

Being a democrat is hardly a punk or radical belief.

true that

[HailTheHartBrak]

hmmmmmmm... how about we talk about Bush's service in Vietnam....


... oh, wait. there wasn't one.


hmm lets talk about ur service to our contry,... oh wait, there is none

[ohlookitspaul]

hmm lets talk about ur service to our contry,... oh wait, there is none
wait are you saying that you have to "serve our country" to be able to form a political opinion?

[Jason Tate]

hmm lets talk about ur service to our contry,... oh wait, there is none
Which would therefore not qualify Morningstarx0x to be the commander and chief of the armed forces, correct?

[HailTheHartBrak]

wait are you saying that you have to "serve our country" to be able to form a political opinion?



yes thats exactly what im saying

[Jason Tate]

yes thats exactly what im saying
Hmm, so should Bush be removed from office? Dick Cheney ousted? Arnold drawn and quartered? Let's appoint a military leader, when that happens, things usually go pretty well for the country - history will vindicate this idea (this time)!

[HailTheHartBrak]

Which would therefore not qualify Morningstarx0x to be the commander and chief of the armed forces, correct?


no he could still if he wanted too, just u shoudlnt tak abotu someones lack of history of fighting to serve their country when you yourself have nto doen jack shit

[BrandNew20]

no he could still if he wanted too, just u shoudlnt tak abotu someones lack of history of fighting to serve their country when you yourself have nto doen jack shit

can I still form an opinion on Bush driving drunk, when I myself haven't done so?

[Jason Tate]

can I still form an opinion on Bush driving drunk, when I myself haven't done so?
Or form an opinion on murder and rape without having commited the crime?

Incidently it could also be argued that those taking a stand against Bush are doing more (and being more patriotic) to fight for this country than Bush himself ever did.

Just because this quote always comes to mind when I start thinking about this topic:

"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance, how violently I hate all this, how despicable an ignorable war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder." -- Albert Einstein

[CyberInferno]

Amen. I really wish the current state of party politics was a lot better.
Although it was almost definitely an overhyped, overplayed joke, we all remember John Titor don't we? The "time traveler" who posted on message boards back in 2000 (or 1999). He spoke of a USA civil war in 2005 based on politics. At this point, it almost seems possible. So much hatred.

[Jason Tate]

Although it was almost definitely an overhyped, overplayed joke, we all remember John Titor don't we? The "time traveler" who posted on message boards back in 2000 (or 1999). He spokd of a USA civil war in 2005 based on politics. At this point, it almost seems possible. So much hatred.
http://www.johntitor.com/

[HailTheHartBrak]

can I still form an opinion on Bush driving drunk, when I myself haven't done so?


y not, most of the time i consider driving drunk and murder and rape in the same category as serving ones country but this time all make an exception. and i never said u cant from an opinon about someones lack of military service. if u look at my first post, thats exactly what i did.

[CyberInferno]

http://www.johntitor.com/
Thanks for that, I forgot to post the link. Thanks for the video link, too. Damned funny.

[infamous_alias]

http://www.johntitor.com/

Hmmm, I'd forgotten about that guy...pretty interesting stuff...

[The Silencer]

this has become one giant bitchfest

[Cottage Cheese]

just u shoudlnt tak about someones lack of history of fighting to serve their country when you yourself have nto doen jack shit

Umm, I am assuming that 85% of readers here are under the age of 18 and therefore cannot serve.

[billcom6]

do people actually think because john kerry served 4 months in vietnam when he was like 19 makes him more qualified to be president??

because the way i look at it, it really doesnt, it was 30 years ago, lets live in the now, this goes for both sides always bringin up vietnam

also the daily show is a comedy show, not a news program remember that folks

[miltownrob]

if it weren't for ap.net, i do not know where i would go for my propaganda. :lipsrseal

[IFeelFine]

It's depressing to see the current state of politics. In a time where unity means more than in recent history, both parties are doing their damndest to polorize the country into two factions. Neither Bush nor Kerry is all that appealing to me, but in a case such as this, I choose the lesser of two evils. Many here are far to quick to judge Bush's performance as the commander and chief when they really have no comprehension of the stresses of his post. Given that I wholly support the first amendment, I would gladly fight to support your right to speak an opinion contrary to mine, yet ignorance is not excusable. If you were to look at Kerrys economic policy, you see that he plans to tax the rich to support the poor. Does this seem a little close to socialism to anyone else? Granted, the rich have the largest body of income and therefore could support the poor for a time, but look at any society with any socialized services such as medical. They are far poorer as a society than the US. Neither candidate has all of the answers and no commercial or comedy program will sway the opinion of anyone who has an opinion of their own.

[TENCopeland]

throughout the Swift Boat Ads i never questioned Kerry's service to this country. i felt it was a non-issue although he constantly tried to make it one. however, when i heard that one award he claims is now under investigation by the Navy and 94 pages from his record have not been turned over, i am now starting to wonder if his service should become an issue.

[CROMagnon]

do people actually think because john kerry served 4 months in vietnam when he was like 19 makes him more qualified to be president??

because the way i look at it, it really doesnt, it was 30 years ago, lets live in the now, this goes for both sides always bringin up vietnam

also the daily show is a comedy show, not a news program remember that folks
yeah, a while back, there was an ad where jon said "if you watch us for the news, DON'T. we make stuff up."

[xallstarchrisx]

Most people hate Bush because of the war. Most people don't have thought out and intelligent opinions on this matter like Jason does. The fact is that John Kerry was on the committee that prescribed to Bush to go to war, and was one of the big supporters of war.

On a side note, John Kerry promises more jobs, but my question is how he is going to go about doing this? He can't go to every single unemployed person and give them a job. He cannot simply invent jobs out of the air. I read a report that a reason unemployment is higher than people would like is not just because jobs are being taken out of America, but also because Americans today are working more efficiently, and working longer hours. Plus, who is to say that Kerry can bring those jobs back. Taxing the super wealthy won't hurt them. Just like it won't hurt him or John Edwards. Whether you are a wealthy company, or the most welathy ticket ever (Kerry and Edwards), no amount of taxes will affect you. Because no matter how much the taxes rise for the rich, they will still have enough to do what they want. They may just take their business somewhere other than India, to some impovershed thrid world country, where they can pay their workers ever less.

If Kerry wins, it will also be interesting to see if he does pull the troops out of Iraq, and how fast. And then to see how people's views of America change. If we now are compassionate, or are cowards who cannot finish what we started.

The outcome of the Swift Boat Ads is going to be interesting. We have two groups claiming other things. Both could have Party backing, nobody knows, so it is kind of pointless to speculate. You can argue it either way, and nobody will get anywhere on it excpet just becing mad at each other.

About Bin Laden. If we happen to find him before the election, everybody is going to say that he had already been found, and Bush was having him held until the time was right to improve his rating, and same if WMD's happen to be found all the sudden in Iraq. It's sad that today there is so much utter hatred between Americans because of political parties. And the thing is the a lot of those people don't really know why they hate, they just know that their parents do or their peers do, so it is the thing to do. People don't know how good we have it in this country. I cannot say whether we would be better off if Kerry were president, but I have a feeling we would not, simply because I believe we would be safer if Bush were President (Kerry says we need more support for our troops and National Defense, yet he voted against allocating more funds towards both). Economically I feel we would be better off with Bush too. The economy dropped because the technology bubble burst. Bush's tax cuts have honestly saved our economy. I feel that these tax cuts help pump more money into our economy which would create new jobs. And if these taxes end up being a form of wealth redistribution, then that would do nothing but promote laziness, and make more jobs move out of the US.

This is just what I think, I'm not saying I'm right, so before you talk shit about it/me at least just think about it



very nicely put and u did it without name calling or anything.

[Jason Tate]

do people actually think because john kerry served 4 months in vietnam when he was like 19 makes him more qualified to be president??

because the way i look at it, it really doesnt, it was 30 years ago, lets live in the now, this goes for both sides always bringin up vietnam

also the daily show is a comedy show, not a news program remember that folks
I want that shrapnel taken out of his leg and examined as well. Fucking bastard. He prolly shot himself, and then asked to go back out there just to do it again.

Hmm... why is more shit being brought up about the man that was obviously at the VERY least, overseas - whereas the mystery of Mr. AWOL is still hardly being questioned. The guy leading most of these anti-kerry service campaigns is a great guy too .. you should look into some of the other remarkable things he has done. /sarcastic

[ohlookitspaul]

yes thats exactly what im saying
so would you prefer general wesley clark then? i mean, he had the most unrefutable military experience of all the candidates, including bush.

[AdamMLA]

This brings up a really good point. Is war ever popular when its going on? When the war is first declared, it's usually by popular demand (e.g. Bush's record-setting 95% approval rating after the declaration of the "war on terror"). But when we're in the ugly thick of it and people are actually dying (hard to believe, but that's what happens in war), no one likes it. So, really, we're all the flip-floppers we accuse Bush and Kerry to be. When a country is at war, you've got to stick it out to the end, you can't back out when reality hits you. Granted, the primary argument against Bush is that he went into Iraq unjustified and on a whim (looking for WMDs). I'm too tired to try and think of a response to this, so I'm going to concede it for now and let somebody else take up the argument.

That is probably the smartest thing I have ever read on this message board. Most people who complain about war, and the economy, and unemployment have no idea how it even works. I recommend picking up a textbook and educating yourself rather than being so punk rock and watching Michael Moore trash.

[ohlookitspaul]

That is probably the smartest thing I have ever read on this message board. Most people who complain about war, and the economy, and unemployment have no idea how it even works. I recommend picking up a textbook and educating yourself rather than being so punk rock and watching Michael Moore trash.
what he said isn't necessarily true though. we're not all flip-floppers. many of us opposed the war the entire time. to generalize everyone as flip-floppers is wrong. perhaps if he said "many of us are...", then i might agree.

[AdamMLA]

For some it was prosperous, yes. But it was also a time when the rich became richer and the poor became poorer. The trickle down effect doesn't work for this reason-it assumes that all wealthy people own some sort of business in which to enlarge and it also assumes that the rich who do own the businesses would want to expand their business(or pay their employees more, which is even less likely), rather than just spending it for their own good. If you give the money to the middle and lower classes, they need the money in order to continue on the process of their daily lives. They need to buy goods and hire people(such as builders) to do skilled work for them. In short, more money gets to the people who need it the most faster this way.

The trickle down effect assumes the rich will spend their money in the market which will then trickle down to the middle class through increased wages. your definition is wrong. if you want to get rich marry a rich person. kerry did it. twice.

unemployment will always rise and fall. everyone loves new technology and anything to make our lives easier and make us lazier. that new technology takes away jobs because we are maximizing our resources. the economy is tricky and nobody has the correct answer to solve it. the fact that it takes 8 years for a presidents policies to take effect makes that so. there are opportunity costs for everything. if we slow technology growth to ensure jobs for laborers then prices will rise to compensate for increases in wages.

[billcom6]

I want that shrapnel taken out of his leg and examined as well. Fucking bastard. He prolly shot himself, and then asked to go back out there just to do it again.

Hmm... why is more shit being brought up about the man that was obviously at the VERY least, overseas - whereas the mystery of Mr. AWOL is still hardly being questioned. The guy leading most of these anti-kerry service campaigns is a great guy too .. you should look into some of the other remarkable things he has done. /sarcastic


tate chill the eF out and actually read what i wrote, all i said was i dont think 4 months of military service when you are 19 makes you more qualified to be president, i never said anything bad about his service, or anything about the swift boat ads, just that vietnam service isnt really that relevant to the problems facing america today in 2004

[knivesbatstats]

its all just a great use of editing, you could do that with literally any political figure, its just like michael moore's "documentary" shit, and way to go tate, you once again just copied what someone else said and then defended your argument with even more copy and paste, you are the copy and paste master, go out and form something intelligent to say that you came up with next time, and anyone who forms their political opinion based on what they watch on the daily show, well i just feel sorry for their uneducated self

[AdamMLA]

yes! i wish you could hear me clapping. why havent any of the REAL news networks revealed this bush flip-flop. do you know what the context that the governor's comments were made in.

[Slovo]

http://empirewatch.org/pages/_archives/911/index.html

http://pages.infinit.net/noc/pentagon.swf

:lurk:

I'm not saying either are true, but they are both very interesting reads.

[ihatepunk]

Excluding the war in Iraq, what else has Bush done that is so bad everybody abroad and domestically hates him. Everybody thinks John Kennedy is such a great man, but what about the Bay of Pigs. It's not just a problem with Republicans, though it may just be a prejudice against them. I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but I'm curious about it. I personally don't think it matter who was President during these events, I think war was inevitable, regardless of President

Wait, let me get this straight. You think the war with Iraq - not Afghanistan - Iraq, was inevitable regardless of the president?

Many people abroad dislike America because they see us as an imperialistic country. I'm not saying we are, that is just how they see us. Many hate due to jealousy, many hate because they were taught to, and the list goes on. It is pretty obvious why peopl hate our preident. He invaded a country. I'm not saying Iraq was innocent, but he did invade it on the grounds of Saddam being a real threat to the world, and having stockpiles of WMD's. The 9/11 Commision Report found there were no substantial ties between Iraq/Saddam and either September 11th or Al-Queda (it's in your nearest bookstore - and it is covered in about 4 pages). It is a fact that Bin Ladin and Hussein disliked each other and had opposing philosphies (both religious and social). So this invasion by our president, which I supported because I watched C. Powell on C-Span show satellite images he stated in front of the world that were chemical, biological, and other WMD's.

"This isn't speculation ladies and gentlemen. These are FACTS." - Colin Powelll to U.N. Security Council
So I believed him. Why shouldn't I? He knows more than me. After September 11th, I think The vast majority of the population of this country wanted to trust our government. I sure did.
And I was wrong. I don't know if Bush and his administration lied about Iraq being a significant threat. I don't know if they lied about Iraq possessing stockpiles of WMD's.
But in hindsight I do know that they were wrong. Completely dead fucking wrong. Nothing has been found and I sure don't feel the world is a safer place now that Hussein is out of power.
I would have loved for the President to be right, for there to be stockpiles of weapons, for there to be plans of attacking America in conjunction with Al-Queda's help. I would have loved for this country's armed forces to stop a huge threat in it's tracks and snuff out a tremendous threat. But the reality is, what once started as a offensive to get WMD's that could destroy the lives of millions of people is now a war to liberate a group of people whom don't want to be 'liberated'.

Iraq has turned into an un-winnable humanitarian war. And if Bush and his administration knew Powell was not telling the truth to the U.N. he needs to lose his job. And if Bush and his administration thought they were telling the truth then, butlater it was exposed that the intelligence they had was the worst in the history of modern america and because so, now over 1,000 u.s. men and women have lost their lives, he again needs to lose his job.

He needs to be held accountable. I am not going to call him a liar because I don't know what he did or did not know. But when you make the deision of all decisions as a president - the decision to go to war - you need to realize that no matter what the result, you will be held accountable. Sure the fault also lies with the CIA and other intelligence organizations, but the resignation of George Tenet is not enough.
If the President was right on most or all accounts he would be basking in the glory and his re-election would almost be a certainty. But he was wrong on almost all accounts with Iraq, and I still haven't mentioned that Osama has yet to be caught, so he needs to be a man and face the consequences. And that means losing his job. And lastly, he had one of the greatest opportunities a president has ever had after 9/11. He could have (and all but promised) to unite the country going forward after such a horrible tragedy. Instead the country has become more polorized and divided than any time modern history.

I am certainly not saying John Kerry is the solution, but the facts are George Bush was the president during tremendous intelligence blunders that has cost hundereds of American lives, and entered this country into what many see as an unwinnable war in Iraq because of thes intelligence reports that were not just faulty but absolutely wrong. In doing so, he has somehow split much of NATO and pushed many of our allies away from us. Obviously the U.S. economy has taken an extreme hit because of the last four years, and even though some say it is slowly turning around, for many who no longer have jobs, or a steady source of income, that is too little to late.

George W. Bush was the president during the worst tragedy in the history of America and there is no question he played a part in healing a nation. To his credit, he handled the weeks and months following that fateful day in a way all americans should be proud. After all, he certainly could've handled it much worse.
But when you live by the sword, you die by the sword, and while the overwhealming majority favored going into Afghanistan and wiping out Al-Queda and killing Osama, it's obvious Bush and many in his administration (Rice, Cheney{the real guy who runs much of the country} and Rumsfeld) thought it ws a perfect time to take out Iraq to - much of this decision made due to the aforementioned faulty intelligence (some of these events detailed in The 9/11 Commision Report, but a vast majority detailed in Bob Woodward's Bush At War - both NY Times bestsellers).
Only those in power know whether the intelligence on Iraq was completely wrong before they decided to begin this "Pre-emptive" war.

However, during this election period, I see that as irrelevant.
The fact is the intelligence WAS completely wrong and someone needs to be held accountable for that mistake.

It is not like the president dropped an F Bomb that was unfortunately caught on camera. This mistake cost at least a thousand American lives, created one of the most horrific and disgusting prison atrocities in history full of humiliation, torture, and forced sex acts including sodomy and rape by the supposed 'good guys'. This mistake has found no WMD's or links to Al-Queda - the real perpitrators of 9/11, the increased hatred of Americans across the Arab world which will undoubtedly lead to more terrorists and probably worst of all entered the United States into a war (that at first was to find stockpiles among stockpiles of WMD's and kill all Al-Queda operatives and links to Bin Ladin, but since neither has been proven to exist, the war and lives of hundreds of thousands of young American boys and girls has now switched objectives and that is to liberate Iraq and make it into a democracy that any student of history would realize has less than a 1% chance of succeeding. There has been trouble in the middle east for centuries, waving a flag, holding a machine gun and preaching the Constitution, will have zero effect on a culture that has lived that way since before Biblical times. And the idea that our leadr and his staff think that will have any POSITIVE impact, shows a complete lack of understanding history.

I'm sure there are bright spots to the war. Capturing Saddam, who committed hundreds of atrocities of his own, and trying to set up a government for Iraq that hopefully will have some impact on that country is somewhat encouraging.And freeing many woman and children from fear od Hussein has no negatives whatsoever. But remeber the U.S. had a tremendous had in putting Saddam into power to begin with.

But probably most imprtant of all, besides the vast majority of Iraqi's seeing the U.S. as 'occupiers - which, save the fact that we see ourselves as trying to be peaceful occupiers with a end purpose that is well-meaning, we are trying to show another country how to live. One that was around long before us and that has a culture many of our 'experts' are only beginning to understand. The Shiites and Suunis have existed long before this country, and I hate to break it to 'W.', but waving an aamerican flag and holding conferencesmight seem like a logical and reasonable solution to those outside of the culture, but we need to realize that is just not a feesable solution. And you must truly understand the Islamic religion and both groups culture to realize that 'common sense solutions' don't necessarily apply in situations where cultures/groups/faiths have been at odds for thousands of years. This administration doesn't seem to realize guns and conferences don't eliminate so many years of distrust and violence.

And then there is Isreal. The United States Has to support Isreal. But as long as this country does it will be seen as THE problem. I don't think there is an easy way or even a way out of this situation.

But the bottom line is, while I think the majority of Americans felt and still feel that going after Osama Bin Ladin in Afghanistan is completely justified, Iraq is another situation entirely. George W. Bush and his administration either lied or just didn't know that the intelligence Colin Powell gave before the U.N. a few years ago was completely inaccurate. It really doesn't matter which one was the case, both mistakes were so unbelievable bad, they need to be paid for. And the release of CIA director George Tenet isn't close to enough. The President and his Administration have to lose their jobs over such an incomprehensible blunder. And in the process 'W.' and his staff have pushed away Americas top allies over the last 40 years and are engaged in an unwinnable culture/humanitarian war while the mastermind of September 11th still walks free. John Kerry might not be the savior of American politics, but that really isn't the issue. George Bush has made so many mistakes in office and as a result gotten 1000 service men and women killed, he must pay with his job. If Kerry was responsible for the same thing, I would have the same viewpoint.

When you make a decision to go to war, put young American lives at risk, you need to have a clearly defined goal and a way out either once that goal is achieved or you no longer feel the price in lives, or the price in the resulting political ramifications or even the price in dollars is worth continuing.
I think it is now painfully obvious George W. Bush and his administration had no idea what they were getting into - no goal (once the realized the WMD's didn't exist, and the capturing of Saddam wasn't the end all they thought it might be), and no way out now that they have decimated a country who continues to fight back. If they pull out now, many Iraqis will say they beat the Americans, there will be little to no military support for the new Iraq government and other countries will insinuate that we ravaged a country with bombs and destroyed infrastucture without trying to rebuild it. However, if the U.S. continues to stay and fight more damage, death(to both sides) will continue and there will be little to noend in sight to this war, with iraqi restlessness only growing due to the occupation of their country. It is clearly a no-win situation that the President, V.P. and their staff clearly misjudged or just didn't juge at all when planning this war - if there even was a plan. Which is yet another reason these people must pay with their jobs. Their mistakes are far too widespread and too careless for leaders of the free word not to be held accountable for.

Many, including myself and John Kerry, supported going into Iraq because what the President and his intelligence staff were telling us were ample reasons to do so. However, NONE of those examples were true. And whether the President knew so before going to war in Iraq - wheteher he lied - or not, again, is irrelevant. When the leader of this country makes a series of mistakes that big, with ramifications that far reaching - possibly affecting generations and generations to come - he needs to be removed.

George W. Bush had his chance to unite this country and attack those who murdered our citizens in cold blood on the worst day this country has ever seen. He even handled himself - in my opinion - well for a period of time, and I - like many others - wanted to be believe he could do the job. But The economy tumbled, the country became more polorized than it has ever been and instead of concentrating our efforts on finding and killing members of Al-Queda and Osama Bin Ladin in Afghanistan, we gathered completely false intelligence, presented it before the U.N. and with the exception of Britain and Spain, were dismissed by our allies. So instead of putting our full force of military might into Afghanistan and Finding Al-Queda, the President and his administration lauched a full-fleged War against Iraq. This turned out to be the biggest black mark on American military history ever. It would've rivaled Vietnam, but I'm pretty sure the Vietnamese were there. The huge stockpiles of biological and chemical weapons which were going to be unloaded on america and it's allies were nowhere to be found. And Saddam Hussien, the big bad monster of a man, who was regularly mentioned with names like Hitler, Mussolini, and Stalin was found cowering in a hole looking like a bum who hadn't washed or shaven in weeks.

Instead of going after the attackers of America - Osama and Al-Queda - George Bush decided to attack Iraq. Not an innocent country by any means, but not the most serious threat to another 9/11 either.

WMD's? An imminent threat to American security? Satellite images of chemical and biological weapons ready to unleash a small armageddon?

Bush and his administration was wrong. Not just wrong., They made this country look foolish and got over 1000 young brave men and women to give their lives. When you make mistakes that large and that frequent payback is needed. If any President, Republican or Democrat made these mistakes the answer to their payback would be simple. And it is.
George W. Bush needs to lose his job. He has failed the people of this country.


70x7 - JFK might not have been the greatest president but he certainly wasn't a bad one. If you are going to bring up his big mistake at the Bay of Pigs, you really ought to remember a year later he stared down the Soviets and brought the world back from the brink of nuclear war during the Cuban Missle Crisis. Perhaps the gutsiest move ever by a President during the Cold War.

[Jason Tate]

:appl:

[Lueda Alia]

Wait, let me get this straight. You think the war with Iraq - not Afghanistan - Iraq, was inevitable regardless of the president?

Many people abroad dislike America because they see us as an imperialistic country. I'm not saying we are, that is just how they see us. Many hate due to jealousy, many hate because they were taught to, and the list goes on. It is pretty obvious why peopl hate our preident. He invaded a country. I'm not saying Iraq was innocent, but he did invade it on the grounds of Saddam being a real threat to the world, and having stockpiles of WMD's. The 9/11 Commision Report found there were no substantial ties between Iraq/Saddam and either September 11th or Al-Queda (it's in your nearest bookstore - and it is covered in about 4 pages). It is a fact that Bin Ladin and Hussein disliked each other and had opposing philosphies (both religious and social). So this invasion by our president, which I supported because I watched C. Powell on C-Span show satellite images he stated in front of the world that were chemical, biological, and other WMD's.

"This isn't speculation ladies and gentlemen. These are FACTS." - Colin Powelll to U.N. Security Council
So I believed him. Why shouldn't I? He knows more than me. After September 11th, I think The vast majority of the population of this country wanted to trust our government. I sure did.
And I was wrong. I don't know if Bush and his administration lied about Iraq being a significant threat. I don't know if they lied about Iraq possessing stockpiles of WMD's.
But in hindsight I do know that they were wrong. Completely dead fucking wrong. Nothing has been found and I sure don't feel the world is a safer place now that Hussein is out of power.
I would have loved for the President to be right, for there to be stockpiles of weapons, for there to be plans of attacking America in conjunction with Al-Queda's help. I would have loved for this country's armed forces to stop a huge threat in it's tracks and snuff out a tremendous threat. But the reality is, what once started as a offensive to get WMD's that could destroy the lives of millions of people is now a war to liberate a group of people whom don't want to be 'liberated'.

Iraq has turned into an un-winnable humanitarian war. And if Bush and his administration knew Powell was not telling the truth to the U.N. he needs to lose his job. And if Bush and his administration thought they were telling the truth then, butlater it was exposed that the intelligence they had was the worst in the history of modern america and because so, now over 1,000 u.s. men and women have lost their lives, he again needs to lose his job.

He needs to be held accountable. I am not going to call him a liar because I don't know what he did or did not know. But when you make the deision of all decisions as a president - the decision to go to war - you need to realize that no matter what the result, you will be held accountable. Sure the fault also lies with the CIA and other intelligence organizations, but the resignation of George Tenet is not enough.
If the President was right on most or all accounts he would be basking in the glory and his re-election would almost be a certainty. But he was wrong on almost all accounts with Iraq, and I still haven't mentioned that Osama has yet to be caught, so he needs to be a man and face the consequences. And that means losing his job. And lastly, he had one of the greatest opportunities a president has ever had after 9/11. He could have (and all but promised) to unite the country going forward after such a horrible tragedy. Instead the country has become more polorized and divided than any time modern history.

I am certainly not saying John Kerry is the solution, but the facts are George Bush was the president during tremendous intelligence blunders that has cost hundereds of American lives, and entered this country into what many see as an unwinnable war in Iraq because of thes intelligence reports that were not just faulty but absolutely wrong. In doing so, he has somehow split much of NATO and pushed many of our allies away from us. Obviously the U.S. economy has taken an extreme hit because of the last four years, and even though some say it is slowly turning around, for many who no longer have jobs, or a steady source of income, that is too little to late.

George W. Bush was the president during the worst tragedy in the history of America and there is no question he played a part in healing a nation. To his credit, he handled the weeks and months following that fateful day in a way all americans should be proud. After all, he certainly could've handled it much worse.
But when you live by the sword, you die by the sword, and while the overwhealming majority favored going into Afghanistan and wiping out Al-Queda and killing Osama, it's obvious Bush and many in his administration (Rice, Cheney{the real guy who runs much of the country} and Rumsfeld) thought it ws a perfect time to take out Iraq to - much of this decision made due to the aforementioned faulty intelligence (some of these events detailed in The 9/11 Commision Report, but a vast majority detailed in Bob Woodward's Bush At War - both NY Times bestsellers).
Only those in power know whether the intelligence on Iraq was completely wrong before they decided to begin this "Pre-emptive" war.

However, during this election period, I see that as irrelevant.
The fact is the intelligence WAS completely wrong and someone needs to be held accountable for that mistake.

It is not like the president dropped an F Bomb that was unfortunately caught on camera. This mistake cost at least a thousand American lives, created one of the most horrific and disgusting prison atrocities in history full of humiliation, torture, and forced sex acts including sodomy and rape by the supposed 'good guys'. This mistake has found no WMD's or links to Al-Queda - the real perpitrators of 9/11, the increased hatred of Americans across the Arab world which will undoubtedly lead to more terrorists and probably worst of all entered the United States into a war (that at first was to find stockpiles among stockpiles of WMD's and kill all Al-Queda operatives and links to Bin Ladin, but since neither has been proven to exist, the war and lives of hundreds of thousands of young American boys and girls has now switched objectives and that is to liberate Iraq and make it into a democracy that any student of history would realize has less than a 1% chance of succeeding. There has been trouble in the middle east for centuries, waving a flag, holding a machine gun and preaching the Constitution, will have zero effect on a culture that has lived that way since before Biblical times. And the idea that our leadr and his staff think that will have any POSITIVE impact, shows a complete lack of understanding history.

I'm sure there are bright spots to the war. Capturing Saddam, who committed hundreds of atrocities of his own, and trying to set up a government for Iraq that hopefully will have some impact on that country is somewhat encouraging.And freeing many woman and children from fear od Hussein has no negatives whatsoever. But remeber the U.S. had a tremendous had in putting Saddam into power to begin with.

But probably most imprtant of all, besides the vast majority of Iraqi's seeing the U.S. as 'occupiers - which, save the fact that we see ourselves as trying to be peaceful occupiers with a end purpose that is well-meaning, we are trying to show another country how to live. One that was around long before us and that has a culture many of our 'experts' are only beginning to understand. The Shiites and Suunis have existed long before this country, and I hate to break it to 'W.', but waving an aamerican flag and holding conferencesmight seem like a logical and reasonable solution to those outside of the culture, but we need to realize that is just not a feesable solution. And you must truly understand the Islamic religion and both groups culture to realize that 'common sense solutions' don't necessarily apply in situations where cultures/groups/faiths have been at odds for thousands of years. This administration doesn't seem to realize guns and conferences don't eliminate so many years of distrust and violence.

And then there is Isreal. The United States Has to support Isreal. But as long as this country does it will be seen as THE problem. I don't think there is an easy way or even a way out of this situation.

But the bottom line is, while I think the majority of Americans felt and still feel that going after Osama Bin Ladin in Afghanistan is completely justified, Iraq is another situation entirely. George W. Bush and his administration either lied or just didn't know that the intelligence Colin Powell gave before the U.N. a few years ago was completely inaccurate. It really doesn't matter which one was the case, both mistakes were so unbelievable bad, they need to be paid for. And the release of CIA director George Tenet isn't close to enough. The President and his Administration have to lose their jobs over such an incomprehensible blunder. And in the process 'W.' and his staff have pushed away Americas top allies over the last 40 years and are engaged in an unwinnable culture/humanitarian war while the mastermind of September 11th still walks free. John Kerry might not be the savior of American politics, but that really isn't the issue. George Bush has made so many mistakes in office and as a result gotten 1000 service men and women killed, he must pay with his job. If Kerry was responsible for the same thing, I would have the same viewpoint.

When you make a decision to go to war, put young American lives at risk, you need to have a clearly defined goal and a way out either once that goal is achieved or you no longer feel the price in lives, or the price in the resulting political ramifications or even the price in dollars is worth continuing.
I think it is now painfully obvious George W. Bush and his administration had no idea what they were getting into - no goal (once the realized the WMD's didn't exist, and the capturing of Saddam wasn't the end all they thought it might be), and no way out now that they have decimated a country who continues to fight back. If they pull out now, many Iraqis will say they beat the Americans, there will be little to no military support for the new Iraq government and other countries will insinuate that we ravaged a country with bombs and destroyed infrastucture without trying to rebuild it. However, if the U.S. continues to stay and fight more damage, death(to both sides) will continue and there will be little to noend in sight to this war, with iraqi restlessness only growing due to the occupation of their country. It is clearly a no-win situation that the President, V.P. and their staff clearly misjudged or just didn't juge at all when planning this war - if there even was a plan. Which is yet another reason these people must pay with their jobs. Their mistakes are far too widespread and too careless for leaders of the free word not to be held accountable for.

Many, including myself and John Kerry, supported going into Iraq because what the President and his intelligence staff were telling us were ample reasons to do so. However, NONE of those examples were true. And whether the President knew so before going to war in Iraq - wheteher he lied - or not, again, is irrelevant. When the leader of this country makes a series of mistakes that big, with ramifications that far reaching - possibly affecting generations and generations to come - he needs to be removed.

George W. Bush had his chance to unite this country and attack those who murdered our citizens in cold blood on the worst day this country has ever seen. He even handled himself - in my opinion - well for a period of time, and I - like many others - wanted to be believe he could do the job. But The economy tumbled, the country became more polorized than it has ever been and instead of concentrating our efforts on finding and killing members of Al-Queda and Osama Bin Ladin in Afghanistan, we gathered completely false intelligence, presented it before the U.N. and with the exception of Britain and Spain, were dismissed by our allies. So instead of putting our full force of military might into Afghanistan and Finding Al-Queda, the President and his administration lauched a full-fleged War against Iraq. This turned out to be the biggest black mark on American military history ever. It would've rivaled Vietnam, but I'm pretty sure the Vietnamese were there. The huge stockpiles of biological and chemical weapons which were going to be unloaded on america and it's allies were nowhere to be found. And Saddam Hussien, the big bad monster of a man, who was regularly mentioned with names like Hitler, Mussolini, and Stalin was found cowering in a hole looking like a bum who hadn't washed or shaven in weeks.

Instead of going after the attackers of America - Osama and Al-Queda - George Bush decided to attack Iraq. Not an innocent country by any means, but not the most serious threat to another 9/11 either.

WMD's? An imminent threat to American security? Satellite images of chemical and biological weapons ready to unleash a small armageddon?

Bush and his administration was wrong. Not just wrong., They made this country look foolish and got over 1000 young brave men and women to give their lives. When you make mistakes that large and that frequent payback is needed. If any President, Republican or Democrat made these mistakes the answer to their payback would be simple. And it is.
George W. Bush needs to lose his job. He has failed the people of this country.


70x7 - JFK might not have been the greatest president but he certainly wasn't a bad one. If you are going to bring up his big mistake at the Bay of Pigs, you really ought to remember a year later he stared down the Soviets and brought the world back from the brink of nuclear war during the Cuban Missle Crisis. Perhaps the gutsiest move ever by a President during the Cold War.

Big FAT WORD!



And by the way..... this goes to the dumbass that told me that I haven't served for my country: I'm 17..... a girl..... and NOT American. but nice... actually... no, that was a LAME try at an arguement.

[Lueda Alia]

Excluding the war in Iraq, what else has Bush done that is so bad everybody abroad and domestically hates him. Everybody thinks John Kennedy is such a great man, but what about the Bay of Pigs. It's not just a problem with Republicans, though it may just be a prejudice against them. I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but I'm curious about it. I personally don't think it matter who was President during these events, I think war was inevitable, regardless of President
read the post above. there was NO reason for the war in Iraq. it was ALL lies.

And are you people blind or what? Did you watch the RNC? If you did, then as Jon Sewart said.... why the anger? Aren't the republicans in power right now? oh wait.. here, I'm gonna quote my friend, cause he said it better than I ever could, and he's American btw:

Because they know they've failed on 90% of all issues and they have no record to stand on. So they're diverting the focus from Bush onto attacking the Democratic candidates.

Any half-intelligent American can see this.

Well then I hope you're looking forward to more low-paying jobs, a stagnant economy, censorship of press/media, lesser abortion rights, continued outsourcing to India and other countries, more expensive healthcare, and more world turmoil. And let's pray that no one in your family gets any type of uncurable disease, because Bush and his administration doesn't allow stem-cell research becaue it goes against "Christian" values.

It's scary to think what Bush's administration will do in a 2nd term when it doesn't have to worry about trying to get re-elected.

I swear you can lead a horse to water, but you can't force him to drink."

[venus/bacchus]

yes it is an organization and it also can be how you refer to someone in that organization. and i wasn't trying to be humorous, i was merely making an observation, but i appreciate your compliment.
that wasn't supposed to be a joke?...I thought it was rather witty, but not true...anyway

members are called "Mensa members" or "Mensans"

[davedesloover18]

The first one is so old.
I saw the second one last week, great stuff.

[dude45230]

ihatepunk; mad props on a great, eloquent, intelligent, and convincing post (I didn't quote it though, since it's fucking huge). Seriously, I can't give enough praise for that. Very well done.

[anechoic]

Did anyone else like this site more when it was just about the music? I'm all about political discussion, but why not make a political forum link on the home page. This isn't where I come for my election coverage, it's where I come for my music coverage.

And if Jason wants to use this forum to express his political views, I think the responsible thing to do would be to have a right-leaning political news poster to balance it out.

And while I'm here I might as well give my two cents on wealth redistribution via taxing the rich vs. lower taxes across the board. When the government tries to redistribute wealth only $1 out of every $5 makes it into the hands of people that need it because of the all the bureaucracy invovled to allocate the money. Lower taxes injects capital straight into the economy. And when rich people get tax cuts, they don't keep their money in vaults, they invest it giving companies more money to use to expand.

And by the way, 5% unemployment is considered healthy because it shows that their is mobility in the workforce. Any first year college economics course will tell you that.

[paperandglue]

Hmmmm.... assault rifle ban, anyone, anyone .. 4 hours until it's up -- guess who didn't renew it!
Actually, it doesn't run out until Monday.. but keep your eyes open anyways

[ihatepunk]

ihatepunk; mad props on a great, eloquent, intelligent, and convincing post (I didn't quote it though, since it's fucking huge). Seriously, I can't give enough praise for that. Very well done.

Thank you very much. Seriously. I expected to get ripped apart for my views, misspellings, grammatical errors etc...
Seriously, Thank you, I appreciate that.

And I agree with Arcadian Sky as well. Even though I went off about my views (they are not necessarily the right views, just my own), I liked this site when politics was rarely, if ever, discussed.
It seems all the political discussion on this board really succeeds in only one thing - exposing how all of us, including myself, have a lot to learn about the issues and should do more listening and learning than talking.

Of course, I just did a shitload of talking and even though 'dude45230' liked it, I'm sure I made an ass out of myself as well. You are right on Arcadian Sky.

And once again Dude, Thanks a lot man.

[deadEYEDwelcome]

sooooo funny

[knivesbatstats]

anyone bitching about the economy or job market right now is an idiot cause if you are educated enough to have taken a basic college level economics course you know that both are on the rise and not as bad as all the liberals try to say it is, go look up the figures yourself

[davedesloover18]

anyone bitching about the economy or job market right now is an idiot cause if you are educated enough to have taken a basic college level economics course you know that both are on the rise and not as bad as all the liberals try to say it is, go look up the figures yourself
i have taken 2 college economics classes. trickle down economics does not work. it never has, and never will.
I would like to see you tell those that are unemployed or have much worse jobs now that they are "idiots for bitching"

[AdamMLA]

i have taken 2 college economics classes. trickle down economics does not work. it never has, and never will.
I would like to see you tell those that are unemployed or have much worse jobs now that they are "idiots for bitching"

Those unemployed should get an education or more training and create the technology that has replaced them. There are jobs out there for those who really want them. The trickle down effect does create more jobs. Give money to the rich who help finance companies which will allow them to grow and create new jobs. Like somebody said earlier, 5% unemployment is not bad. Eliminating unemployment would destroy the economy.

[davedesloover18]

Those unemployed should get an education or more training and create the technology that has replaced them.
Easier said than done. I love how cold hearted people are. What if you were too poor to get a college education? What would you do then?

[cal1082]

Easier said than done. I love how cold hearted people are. What if you were too poor to get a college education? What would you do then?

Get a loan? Anyone can pay for college. You might not go to a prestiges university, but there's community college. And if you do well there you can earn scholarships, and get more loans to finish your last two years at a 4 year school.

You are right though, it is easier said than done, but everyone can do it. It just a fact of doing it. You'll get the loans......ecspecially if you're poor.

[Mattkoon8]

you know, all this shit really drives me nuts about liberals. REGARDLESS of whether or not Saddam had WMD's at this exact moment in time, he WOULD HAVE gotten them. liberals seem to believe there is no such thing as evil in this world and that if youre nice to those evil people/tyrants/despots etc., you can make progress - uhh... BULLSHIT! ask clinton, he got played! oh and by the way, whether you want to admit this to yourselves or not, Saddam did have biological and chemical weapons and was obviously not afraid to use them on his own people. we liberated a country and the world from a grave threat. yes, terrorism will continue and probably grow somewhat in the next few years, but by bush starting the war on terrorism, he started the war to end all wars. saddam himself was a terrorist (terrorism n : the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear) and the world WILL BE SAFER in time b/c of his removal.

thanks to the guy/girl who said that these "unemployed" need to get an education! my conservative views tell me that life is what you make of it and that means if you decided to jack off in high school and not do the work to get those good grades and get those scholarships and grants means that youre a lazy fuck and its your own fault. its almost as bad as (and bill cosby talked about this - and got slandered by his own people, comedian god dave chapelle mentioned the same ideal on his latest stand-up) blacks - or any other race for the matter - blaming whites, or another race for their problems. how many more grants or federal programs can the gov't hand out to these people who just wont get up and do something for themselves. people are bitching and moaning over struggle in life, like everythings supposed to be 'oh so easy.' laziness gets you no where. and you DONT need an economic class to tell you that. (no im not calling blacks lazy, its definately not just blacks.. i know plenty of whites that are lazy as hell too and seem to refer to the same idealogy)

btw, cal1082 - your quote of "larger than life" is exactly what im talking about...

and tate, spare me on the lecture im more than likely going to get... youre not going to change my views, humiliate me, or whatever it is you plan on doing

[rellish91]

you know, all this shit really drives me nuts about liberals. REGARDLESS of whether or not Saddam had WMD's at this exact moment in time, he WOULD HAVE gotten them. liberals seem to believe there is no such thing as evil in this world and that if youre nice to those evil people/tyrants/despots etc., you can make progress - uhh... BULLSHIT! ask clinton, he got played! oh and by the way, whether you want to admit this to yourselves or not, Saddam did have biological and chemical weapons and was obviously not afraid to use them on his own people. we liberated a country and the world from a grave threat. yes, terrorism will continue and probably grow somewhat in the next few years, but by bush starting the war on terrorism, he started the war to end all wars. saddam himself was a terrorist (terrorism n : the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear) and the world WILL BE SAFER in time b/c of his removal.

thanks to the guy/girl who said that these "unemployed" need to get an education! my conservative views tell me that life is what you make of it and that means if you decided to jack off in high school and not do the work to get those good grades and get those scholarships and grants means that youre a lazy fuck and its your own fault. its almost as bad as (and bill cosby talked about this - and got slandered by his own people, comedian god dave chapelle mentioned the same ideal on his latest stand-up) blacks - or any other race for the matter - blaming whites, or another race for their problems. how many more grants or federal programs can the gov't hand out to these people who just wont get up and do something for themselves. people are bitching and moaning over struggle in life, like everythings supposed to be 'oh so easy.' laziness gets you no where. and you DONT need an economic class to tell you that. (no im not calling blacks lazy, its definately not just blacks.. i know plenty of whites that are lazy as hell too and seem to refer to the same idealogy)

btw, cal1082 - your quote of "larger than life" is exactly what im talking about...

and tate, spare me on the lecture im more than likely going to get... youre not going to change my views, humiliate me, or whatever it is you plan on doing
Very Nice...i completely agree with your views and like to hear someone besides myself speak up for the conservative sides of the issues every once in awhile. I only really post on hear when I think some of the bleeding liberal bastards on here need to be taught a lesson in politics...thankyou

[davedesloover18]

and tate, spare me on the lecture im more than likely going to get... youre not going to change my views, humiliate me, or whatever it is you plan on doing
the quote in your sig explains your point of view, you didnt even need to say it. no one who believes in revenge could ever see that it solves nothing for us to go "get even" with terrorists, especially by attacked Iraq. Sometimes there is less to be afraid of than people would have you believe. If you believe that Hussein obtaining WMD and threatening the world was inevitable and eventual anyway, then you're right, there's no changing your mind.

[AdamMLA]

the quote in your sig explains your point of view, you didnt even need to say it. no one who believes in revenge could ever see that it solves nothing for us to go "get even" with terrorists, especially by attacked Iraq. Sometimes there is less to be afraid of than people would have you believe. If you believe that Hussein obtaining WMD and threatening the world was inevitable and eventual anyway, then you're right, there's not changing your mind.

What?

[Mattkoon8]

the quote in your sig explains your point of view, you didnt even need to say it. no one who believes in revenge could ever see that it solves nothing for us to go "get even" with terrorists, especially by attacked Iraq. Sometimes there is less to be afraid of than people would have you believe. If you believe that Hussein obtaining WMD and threatening the world was inevitable and eventual anyway, then you're right, there's no changing your mind.

dude, the quote is from a fucking movie (man on fire - denzel washington)... i dont live by the shit..... but i guess by your post, you believe that we should just sit around and wait for the next terrorist attack to come, or the next "hitler" to come into power so america can show up late, when lives have already been lost - or john kerry's view. yes lives will be lost in our 'war on terror,' its like no one understands the word "war." we CANNOT sit around and wait anymore! but if you believe that we can wait, then screw it, lets wait and fuck ourselves for it...

[AdamMLA]

For those of you who saw Fahrenheit 9/11 and believed it...I feel sorry for you. Go to www.davekopel.org for the truth. He is a democrat and part of an independent thinktank in Colorado called Independence Institute. Also check out his movie, Fahrenhype 9/11, which will be in stores on Oct. 5.