View Full Version : Patriotism
Burning Star IV
08/21/08, 10:02 AM
So, recently I was in Alaska (Skagway and Haines, to be exact), and I noticed something rather peculiar to me. Even in a place that has more in common with Canada than it's lower 48 brethren, people in Alaska are patriotic to the point of absurdity. Now, I see nothing wrong with loving your country, but it seems like everywhere I went, someone was shoving down my throat. Even in grocery stores, there's practically an entire isle where you can buy God Bless America on bascailly any household item you can think of. I couldn't go a minute without seeing an American flag hanging out someone's car window or seeing God Bless America on someone's shirt.
What's your stance on this? Is the rest of the lower 48 like this as well?
Discuss.
LastPlaceRocks
08/21/08, 10:05 AM
The extremity depends on where you are, but I'd say yes.
paper halo
08/21/08, 10:13 AM
Not into patriotism myself. I can't help where I was born so why should I express unwaivering loyalty to the country and it's government?
Anyway, I find patriotism is often just used as justification for xenophobia and racism.
chaosB4storm
08/21/08, 10:33 AM
Not into patriotism myself. I can't help where I was born so why should I express unwaivering loyalty to the country and it's government?
Because ill-happenings in your country will result in your life being worse, and you should want to make the place you live a better place.
I can't help who my parents are...
chaosB4storm
08/21/08, 10:46 AM
If there is a country free of patriotic people, it is not really a country. For example, if no one in Canada was patriotic, and the USA was like "Hey, we're taking control of your land", canadians would reply with "OK, I am equally loyal to both countries anyway, so I guess I don't care if Canada exists".
paper halo
08/21/08, 10:46 AM
Because ill-happenings in your country will result in your life being worse, and you should want to make the place you live a better place.
I can't help who my parents are...
Unwaivering loyalty..... and caring enough about my current surroundings to want them to improve....
Not quite the same thing really are they. You appear to have made quite a large step in assuming that because I don't feel the need to express loyalty to this country's government, I don't care about the state of the country.
chaosB4storm
08/21/08, 10:48 AM
Unwaivering loyalty..... and caring enough about my current surroundings to want them to improve....
Not quite the same thing really are they. You appear to have made quite a large step in assuming that because I don't feel the need to express loyalty to this country's government, I don't care about the state of the country.
So you have equal loyalty to all surrounding countries? None? So you're fine with being taken over. cool.
paper halo
08/21/08, 10:50 AM
So you have equal loyalty to all surrounding countries? None? So you're fine with being taken over. cool.
patriotism
a devoted love, support, and defense of one’s country; national loyalty. — patriot, n. — patriotic, adj.
You're loyal to your government whether you agree with their policies or not?
chaosB4storm
08/21/08, 10:52 AM
patriotism
a devoted love, support, and defense of one’s country; national loyalty. — patriot, n. — patriotic, adj.
You're loyal to your government whether you agree with their policies or not?
I don't like how you keep saying "government", and how you're not replying to what I'm saying really in this instance.
I'm loyal to my country whether I agree with my government's policies or not; that is the answer.
Burning Star IV
08/21/08, 11:02 AM
If there is a country free of patriotic people, it is not really a country. For example, if no one in Canada was patriotic, and the USA was like "Hey, we're taking control of your land", canadians would reply with "OK, I am equally loyal to both countries anyway, so I guess I don't care if Canada exists".
Don't get me wrong. I'm patriotic and I love Canada. But in Alaska the level of patriotism makes the whole place seem arrogant and ignorant.
Most patriotic Americans are very ignorant and alo say that they love America because we are free, as if most other developed countries are not.
LastPlaceRocks
08/21/08, 11:06 AM
Don't get me wrong. I'm patriotic and I love Canada. But in Alaska the level of patriotism makes the whole place seem arrogant and ignorant.
Bingo - as a country Americans are arrogant. Nothing wrong with it, but we are.
chaosB4storm
08/21/08, 11:06 AM
Don't get me wrong. I'm patriotic and I love Canada. But in Alaska the level of patriotism makes the whole place seem arrogant and ignorant.
No, I'm not directing this at you. I understand that patriotism does not have to be arrogant like you were describing, and I know that one can be patriotic without breathing a word of his loyalty to anyone. What you were describing is just downright annoying.
chaosB4storm
08/21/08, 11:08 AM
Most patriotic Americans are very ignorant and alo say that they love America because we are free, as if most other developed countries are not.
You're more free than us, and most other developed countries.
chaosB4storm
08/21/08, 11:08 AM
Bingo - as a country Americans are arrogant. Nothing wrong with it, but we are.
Nothing wrong with arrogance? Really?
oldwirehands
08/21/08, 11:18 AM
It depends on your definition of Patriotism. I think the word itself has lost some meaning in this country.
chaosB4storm
08/21/08, 11:25 AM
People don't like to call themselves patriotic anymore for some reason. I don't see what's wrong with being loyal to your country.
Burning Star IV
08/21/08, 11:27 AM
It seems people simply don't want to be associated with the ignorance that patriotism portrays.
Edit: Also, people to me are overly patriotic because they don't know any better.
LastPlaceRocks
08/21/08, 11:31 AM
Nothing wrong with arrogance? Really?
Really.
It depends on your definition of Patriotism. I think the word itself has lost some meaning in this country.
I have to agree with this, and in fact can see it getting worse as the country becomes more polarized.
chaosB4storm
08/21/08, 12:40 PM
It seems people simply don't want to be associated with the ignorance that patriotism portrays.
My adivce to these people is to not let the racist and the ignorant citizens of your country ruin a good thing. We should all still enjoy patriotism for what it is, without taking it to an extreme.
chaosB4storm
08/21/08, 12:41 PM
Really.
I've only ever heard arrogance used as a negative, derogatory description.
Since when are patriotism and ignorance symbiotic?
There's nothing wrong with loving and having pride in where you live. Too many Americans shit where they live because it's (for some awful reason) trendy. Tens of thousands of people risk their lives every year trying to move to America. Tens of thousands of people give up their families, homes, and life as they've known it just to move to America.
The least you can do to show your appreciation is not whine about other people putting out flags or imprinting "God Bless America" on their coffee mugs or whatever.
Burning Star IV
08/21/08, 12:51 PM
I think you're missing the point of the discussion.
I think you're missing the point of the discussion.
I think you changed the direction of the discussion when you said, "It seems people simply don't want to be associated with the ignorance that patriotism portrays."
Since when are patriotism and ignorance symbiotic?
There's nothing wrong with loving and having pride in where you live. Too many Americans shit where they live because it's (for some awful reason) trendy. Tens of thousands of people risk their lives every year trying to move to America. Tens of thousands of people give up their families, homes, and life as they've known it just to move to America.
The least you can do to show your appreciation is not whine about other people putting out flags or imprinting "God Bless America" on their coffee mugs or whatever.
There isn't anything wrong with supporting the country you live in, but how can you have pride? Unless you've done something to help protect or move your country forward, how can you have pride just because you were born here?
Patriotism in America is associated with ignorance and arrogance because people think it's the best in the world. They think we've got the best economy, the best athletes and sports, the best technology, ect. They think we're the country that is changing the world in a positive manner, rather than a negative one.
And they're wrong.
Burning Star IV
08/21/08, 12:57 PM
After someone else posted that patriotism has lost meaning.
There isn't anything wrong with supporting the country you live in, but how can you have pride? Unless you've done something to help protect or move your country forward, how can you have pride just because you were born here?
Patriotism in America is associated with ignorance and arrogance because people think it's the best in the world. They think we've got the best economy, the best athletes and sports, the best technology, ect. They think we're the country that is changing the world in a positive manner, rather than a negative one.
And they're wrong.
By showing support for your country, is that not enough of a reason to then take pride in it?
If your best friends band sells a million records, can you not be proud of him/her even though all you ever did was support them?
You can take pride in where you were born and CHOOSE to continue to live simply by virtue of the fact that you choose to live here over other countries.
You can take pride in where you were born and CHOOSE to live simply because others CHOOSE to leave the places they live for where you do. These are certainly reasons to be proud of the country you choose to live in and support.
I think you are confused in your terminology. Patriotism does not equal ethnocentrism.
You can be patriotic without being ethnocentric. Many ethnocentric people are patriots as well.. which might be the kind of people you have problems with.
And the fact is, America has quite a rich history of doing many great things for the world we live in in ALL of the areas you've mentioned.
No one makes the right decisions all the time, but we don't have a bad track record.
wesgemm08
08/21/08, 01:09 PM
There isn't anything wrong with supporting the country you live in, but how can you have pride? Unless you've done something to help protect or move your country forward, how can you have pride just because you were born here?
Patriotism in America is associated with ignorance and arrogance because people think it's the best in the world. They think we've got the best economy, the best athletes and sports, the best technology, ect. They think we're the country that is changing the world in a positive manner, rather than a negative one.
And they're wrong.
Probably should have provided some examples after that statement...
Burning Star IV
08/21/08, 01:10 PM
My whole point is that it seems patriotism has become egocentric.
oldwirehands
08/21/08, 01:12 PM
Since when are patriotism and ignorance symbiotic?
There's nothing wrong with loving and having pride in where you live. Too many Americans shit where they live because it's (for some awful reason) trendy. Tens of thousands of people risk their lives every year trying to move to America. Tens of thousands of people give up their families, homes, and life as they've known it just to move to America.
The least you can do to show your appreciation is not whine about other people putting out flags or imprinting "God Bless America" on their coffee mugs or whatever.
Patriotism today = Blind faith
Its dangerous. It allows total control.
Patriotism today = Blind faith
Its dangerous. It allows total control.
That's a terrible Catch 22 argument, and based on what facts?
The control is in the hands of the people. They choose to be patriotic or not. You should be allowed to support your country & government without being labeled as mind controlled.
I'm not saying there aren't ignorant patriots, but I think it's a pessimistic and unrealistic thing to assume that all patriots are ignorant.
shit stroll
08/21/08, 01:23 PM
You're more free than us, and most other developed countries.
how so?
oldwirehands
08/21/08, 01:35 PM
That's a terrible Catch 22 argument, and based on what facts?
The control is in the hands of the people. They choose to be patriotic or not. You should be allowed to support your country & government without being labeled as mind controlled.
I'm not saying there aren't ignorant patriots, but I think it's a pessimistic and unrealistic thing to assume that all patriots are ignorant.
I'm just saying the "patriots" of this country have complete blind faith in their government. According to Socrates "patriotism does not require one to agree with everything that his country does and would actually promote analytical questioning in a quest to make the country the best it possibly can be.".
EasySkankin
08/21/08, 01:37 PM
Before I'm an american citizen, I'm a citizen of the world. I'm not going to hold any american in priority over anyone from another country. Before I would commit myself to solve any of america's insignificant problems, I would help solve major problems in other places where life is truly hell.
I'm not proud to be an american, i'm not patriotic, because america (the government) has done horrible things with frightful consistency through it's entire short history. I'm not going to fight for it's dumb wars that have little relevance with the well-being of the country. I'm not going to support it and promote its injustices just because I was born within it's imaginary boundaries. The only people I'd show loyalty devotion and respect for are the people, but that has nothing to do with where they are from.
Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious
being patriotic automatically antagonizes everyone else
Before I'm an american citizen, I'm a citizen of the world. I'm not going to hold any american in priority over anyone from another country. Before I would commit myself to solve any of america's insignificant problems, I would help solve major problems in other places where life is truly hell.
I'm not proud to be an american, i'm not patriotic, because america (the government) has done horrible things with frightful consistency through it's entire short history. I'm not going to fight for it's dumb wars that have little relevance with the well-being of the country. I'm not going to support it and promote its injustices just because I was born within it's imaginary boundaries. The only people I'd show loyalty devotion and respect for are the people, but that has nothing to do with where they are from.
Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious
being patriotic automatically antagonizes everyone else
I bet the view is nice way up there from that plastic moral high horse.
EasySkankin
08/21/08, 02:00 PM
I'm just trying to show that patriotism is unnecessary using myself because I couldn't think of anything else
chaosB4storm
08/21/08, 02:00 PM
Before I'm an american citizen, I'm a citizen of the world. I'm not going to hold any american in priority over anyone from another country. Before I would commit myself to solve any of america's insignificant problems, I would help solve major problems in other places where life is truly hell.
I'm not proud to be an american, i'm not patriotic, because america (the government) has done horrible things with frightful consistency through it's entire short history. I'm not going to fight for it's dumb wars that have little relevance with the well-being of the country. I'm not going to support it and promote its injustices just because I was born within it's imaginary boundaries. The only people I'd show loyalty devotion and respect for are the people, but that has nothing to do with where they are from.
Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious
being patriotic automatically antagonizes everyone else
If you would defend your country against a threat, and fight to have your sovereign country remain sovereign, you are patriotic. Whether you like it or not.
If you would not fight to keep your country a sovereign one, be thankful everyone in your country isn't the same as you. Your country wouldn't exist.
chaosB4storm
08/21/08, 02:01 PM
I'm just saying the "patriots" of this country have complete blind faith in their government. According to Socrates "patriotism does not require one to agree with everything that his country does and would actually promote analytical questioning in a quest to make the country the best it possibly can be.".
Very true, so are you patriotic then? You should be.
LastPlaceRocks
08/21/08, 02:02 PM
Before I'm an american citizen, I'm a citizen of the world. I'm not going to hold any american in priority over anyone from another country. Before I would commit myself to solve any of america's insignificant problems, I would help solve major problems in other places where life is truly hell.
I'm not proud to be an american, i'm not patriotic, because america (the government) has done horrible things with frightful consistency through it's entire short history. I'm not going to fight for it's dumb wars that have little relevance with the well-being of the country. I'm not going to support it and promote its injustices just because I was born within it's imaginary boundaries. The only people I'd show loyalty devotion and respect for are the people, but that has nothing to do with where they are from.
Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious
being patriotic automatically antagonizes everyone else
Then do it. I'm not trying to be an ass or anything, but if you feel that you are a citizen of the world and want to fix other problems, go join the Peace Corps or a similar organization.
EasySkankin
08/21/08, 02:15 PM
That's not the point. I'm not trying to show myself off. again, just trying to demonstrate that you can be a good citizen without being patriotic
I'm just trying to show that patriotism is unnecessary using myself because I couldn't think of anything else
I don't want to be confrontational with anyone, and I value everyone in this thread for at least having an opinion (which is more than most will do)... but the truth is, this world isn't so cut and dry.
In an ideal situation, money and war and globalization and governments and patriotism and rebellion etc. would all be non-issues.
However, realistically this isn't so.
I think it's important to find beliefs you can support, because if people do not push for certain beliefs then change can never be made.
In my personal opinion, America does a lot of positive things for the most likely unsolvable problems of this world (in the very least, they will not be solved in our lifetime). A lot of times it's for the country's own personal gain, but this is how the gears turn. It is way better than doing nothing... and America does a pretty damn good job of taking care of its own.
Compared to some of the hellish countries you were talking about which wouldn't care either way if their poor burned or starved and where the government doesn't blink an eye when they're stepping over the dead while navigating the streets... I think there are plenty of reasons for American citizens to be proud.
I think there are a number of countries where the citizens should be proud. I think patriotism is important to help push the (positive) beliefs of the things these countries do.
But like I said, nothing is black and white. We can probably all sit and talk in circles for hours about the benefits or lack thereof of patriotism. In my personal opinion, educated patriotism is an admirable trait. It is a sign of someone being a part of something they really believe in.
If you don't like America, you are free to leave to somewhere where you agree more with the policies... which is more than you can say of a lot of other countries.
LastPlaceRocks
08/21/08, 02:24 PM
That's not the point. I'm not trying to show myself off. again, just trying to demonstrate that you can be a good citizen without being patriotic
I know that you can be a good citizen without being patriotic to your country, but if you want to fix other problems then you should actually do it and try to make a difference.
loveisdead
08/21/08, 02:28 PM
People don't like to call themselves patriotic anymore for some reason. I don't see what's wrong with being loyal to your country.
Why would people be loyal to a country whose actions they don't agree with? I'm not loyal to most of what this country does, because I do not agree with it.
open mind
08/21/08, 02:41 PM
i'm patriotic....i just hate what/who my government really represents these days, empty, presumptuos slogans, and people who think simply displaying a symbol means something.
i'm patriotic....i just hate what/who my government really represents these days, empty, presumptuos slogans, and people who think simply displaying a symbol means something.
says the Obama supporter.
Burning Star IV
08/21/08, 03:29 PM
says the Obama supporter.
If you're going to make a valid posts then do so.
If you're going to troll and make an ass out of yourself, please leave.
open mind
08/21/08, 03:53 PM
says the Obama supporter.
haha what?
i think he's not as bad as mccain is, but that hardly makes me a supporter.
chaosB4storm
08/21/08, 05:01 PM
Why would people be loyal to a country whose actions they don't agree with? I'm not loyal to most of what this country does, because I do not agree with it.
Patriotism is not loyalty to your government; it is loyalty to your country.
If you are interested in having a better government in power of your country for the reason of making your nation a better one, you are patriotic.
I realise you don't want to admit you are, but it is the truth.
chaosB4storm
08/21/08, 05:02 PM
i'm patriotic....i just hate what/who my government really represents these days, empty, presumptuos slogans, and people who think simply displaying a symbol means something.
I'm glad you make the distinction between loyalty to your country and loyalty to your government.
Matthew
08/21/08, 08:37 PM
At this point, I like to think I betray my country just by getting up in the morning.
LastPlaceRocks
08/21/08, 08:56 PM
So are you a spy for the Chinese or something?
My hometown and ohio are absurdly patriotic. My college succeeds once again at defying logic and being both one of the most atheistic and least patriotic counties in the state.
Because ill-happenings in your country will result in your life being worse, and you should want to make the place you live a better place.
I can't help who my parents are...
Lets make our flags pictures of our parent's fucking.
Oh, and certainly try and make our country a better place - but what if our country would be a better place without patriotism?
asmolitor
08/21/08, 10:05 PM
i think in a certain sense, the term "patriotism" should be disassociated from those who make abuses against it. in the same way that anyone who could be labeled as a christian, muslim, liberal, or conservative shouldn't be written off simply based on a loose definition of their identity. there's two sides of the metaphorical coin of each group/term.
chaosB4storm
08/22/08, 10:01 AM
Lets make our flags pictures of our parent's fucking.
Oh, and certainly try and make our country a better place - but what if our country would be a better place without patriotism?
Our country wouldn't exist without patriotism...read on from my first post.
Matthew
08/22/08, 11:13 AM
Every decent human being should be willing to betray their country in a heartbeat to prevent the suffering of innocent people. Our loyalty should be to each other, not to abstractions or traditions.
chaosB4storm
08/22/08, 01:15 PM
Every decent human being should be willing to betray their country in a heartbeat to prevent the suffering of innocent people. Our loyalty should be to each other, not to abstractions or traditions.
Yes, they should try to stop their country from doing something they don't want them to, in order to create a country with better ideals.
Calling your country an abstraction/tradition is very ignorant. Sovereignty is much more than a tradition; it is a freedom.
chaosB4storm
08/22/08, 01:32 PM
No. Freedom is personal sovereignty. National sovereignty is just as much an infringement of your freedom as occupation by another nation.
National sovereignty protects national freedoms and rights. That sounds obvious, but Canada's natural resources are no longer Canada's without sovereignty; they are everyone's.
This is meant to show that your country is more than just a tradition or abstraction.
Every decent human being should be willing to betray their country in a heartbeat to prevent the suffering of innocent people. Our loyalty should be to each other, not to abstractions or traditions.
Agreed.
chaosB4storm
08/22/08, 01:38 PM
Every decent human being should be willing to betray their government in a heartbeat to prevent the suffering of innocent people. Our loyalty should be to each other, not to abstractions or traditions.
Agreed.
Anne.Frank
08/22/08, 02:24 PM
"'The land of the free'? Whoever told you that is your enemy."
shit stroll
08/22/08, 02:26 PM
"'The land of the free'? Whoever told you that is your enemy."
you should probably go back to making gaslight anthem threads.
open mind
08/22/08, 02:34 PM
the first huge group of patriots in america (founding fathers, and the armies they led) fought against their government....so why do so many people consider disliking their government a unpatriotic stance?
Our country wouldn't exist without patriotism...read on from my first post.
Huh? Its kind of hard to be loyal to something non-existent. Then again, Christians have been doing it for a few thousand years...
open mind
08/22/08, 03:03 PM
Huh? Its kind of hard to be loyal to something non-existent. Then again, Christians have been doing it for a few thousand years...
the country one lives in isn't non-existent.......you could argue that borders are just a lie everyone agrees to believe in, but it's silly to say that the physical land doesn't exist.
the country one lives in isn't non-existent.......you could argue that borders are just a lie everyone agrees to believe in, but it's silly to say that the physical land doesn't exist.
True, but the context in which he was using it implied that the founding fathers were loyal to the United States, in the patriotic sense. If anything, it would've been that brief 1780 thing. Plus, I highly doubt Washington was patriotic about the actual land he was fighting on. Or Washington state for that matter.
open mind
08/22/08, 03:38 PM
True, but the context in which he was using it implied that the founding fathers were loyal to the United States, in the patriotic sense. If anything, it would've been that brief 1780 thing. Plus, I highly doubt Washington was patriotic about the actual land he was fighting on. Or Washington state for that matter.
the revolutionary war was essentially fought for control of the land and it's resources, so i don't see how it wasn't patriotism stemming from devotion to the land in at least some sense.
the revolutionary war was essentially fought for control of the land and it's resources, so i don't see how it wasn't patriotism stemming from devotion to the land in at least some sense.
Hmm. Patriotism seems slightly different in that its supposed to be a bit more selfless. you know, JFK's "Ask not what your country etc, what you can do for your country". By that logic I'm loyal to the oxygen floating above america.
open mind
08/22/08, 04:28 PM
Hmm. Patriotism seems slightly different in that its supposed to be a bit more selfless. you know, JFK's "Ask not what your country etc, what you can do for your country". By that logic I'm loyal to the oxygen floating above america.
no matter how you paint it i'd say that patriotism is an emotion of self interest to one degree or another........it's about loving your land and your people, and doing what you feel needs to be done for both of them because it'll eventually benefit you or those you care about in some way.......i think only idiots buy the line that it's totally selfless, because even if your being selfless you can bet that the people who convinced you to be selfless in the name of patriotism stand to benefit from your selflessness.
i love my oxygen, and i think people should fight to defend it's quality.
Patriotism is burning your country's flag, resisting the urge to abandon it, and instead staying to try to improve it.
chaosB4storm
08/22/08, 06:31 PM
the first huge group of patriots in america (founding fathers, and the armies they led) fought against their government....so why do so many people consider disliking their government a unpatriotic stance?
Disliking your government is not an unpatriotic stance.
chaosB4storm
08/22/08, 06:33 PM
True, but the context in which he was using it implied that the founding fathers were loyal to the United States, in the patriotic sense. If anything, it would've been that brief 1780 thing. Plus, I highly doubt Washington was patriotic about the actual land he was fighting on. Or Washington state for that matter.
How did I imply that?
chaosB4storm
08/22/08, 06:35 PM
Not really. There's some very small minor differences but on the whole everyone in the west has near indentical law codes.
I guess it isn't anything dramtic, but the US generally has more freedom than Canada; one being the freedom to carry protection with you.
open mind
08/22/08, 09:53 PM
Disliking your government is not an unpatriotic stance.
..........which was my point.
chaosB4storm
08/22/08, 09:59 PM
..........which was my point.
I know that. I was agreeing. Anyone that thinks that disliking your government is unpatriotic doesn't know what patriotism means. That argument doesn't even exist; only the ignorant would believe such a thing.
I guess it isn't anything dramtic, but the US generally has more freedom than Canada; one being the freedom to carry protection with you.
Which can be countered by having a police officer on every corner of the street, an absurdly high number of nonviolent criminals in prison, etc.
chaosB4storm
08/22/08, 10:08 PM
Which can be countered by having a police officer on every corner of the street, an absurdly high number of nonviolent criminals in prison, etc.
The high number of people in prison is partially a result of the amount of freedom people have in the country.
open mind
08/22/08, 10:18 PM
The high number of people in prison is partially a result of the amount of freedom people have in the country.
bullshit.
the amount of people prosecuted for victimless crimes in this country is insane.
edit:there are also other countries in the world that have a much more liberal set of laws, and somehow their prison populations are miniscule compared to ours.
Matthew
08/23/08, 08:27 AM
Agreed.
If I had meant government, I would have written government. You keep making this point of emphasizing the difference between government and country, and if you're not too bright I suppose that might seem clever. But you define your country as the United States of America, yes? The USA is a nation, with borders and laws. These things only exist insofar as a government does. The actions of the political entity that is the USA, from torture to occupation, cannot be disassociated from whatever you are defining as your "country."Any attempt to do so is a cowardly maneuver meant to avoid accepting responsibility for the atrocities that you are personally implicated in supporting with your flag-waving complicity.
open mind
08/23/08, 07:41 PM
If I had meant government, I would have written government. You keep making this point of emphasizing the difference between government and country, and if you're not too bright I suppose that might seem clever. But you define your country as the United States of America, yes? The USA is a nation, with borders and laws. These things only exist insofar as a government does. The actions of the political entity that is the USA, from torture to occupation, cannot be disassociated from whatever you are defining as your "country."Any attempt to do so is a cowardly maneuver meant to avoid accepting responsibility for the atrocities that you are personally implicated in supporting with your flag-waving complicity.
the borders would not automattically dissolve if our government collapsed, and laws do not require a government to make them.
the actions of the political entity that is the u.s. can in fact be dissassociated from the definition of country.
i don't wave flags, and i don't support my government in much of anything. but i'd say i'm patriotic because i still give a shit about the land and the people.......i don't see how that makes me a coward.
Lueda Alia
08/23/08, 07:49 PM
I just don't understand why it's such a bigger deal in the US than it is here, or even in most countries I have actually been to. It's just weird to me.
open mind
08/23/08, 08:12 PM
I just don't understand why it's such a bigger deal in the US than it is here, or even in most countries I have actually been to. It's just weird to me.
yeah i don't really get it either, and i think alot of people here (both in the u.s. and on ap) confuse patriotism with nationalism.
Matthew
08/24/08, 03:12 PM
the borders would not automattically dissolve if our government collapsed, and laws do not require a government to make them.
the actions of the political entity that is the u.s. can in fact be dissassociated from the definition of country.
Wrong. Our Constitution establishes our borders. A Constitution is a document that establishes a system of government, the system of courts that define our borders, the military that maintains them, and so on. If there is no way to define or protect a border, how does it exist as anything other than an unverifiable claim, or an arbitrary geographic assertion (like the "border" between Central and South America)?
As for law, it at the very least must be formally recognized, binding, and enforceable. Sounds kind of like a government, eh?
But I'm willing to play in your sandbox: how are you defining "country"?
i don't wave flags, and i don't support my government in much of anything. but i'd say i'm patriotic because i still give a shit about the land and the people.......i don't see how that makes me a coward.
Because you ought to care about those people for being people, not for living in the same arbitrary geographic and political entity as you. Really, saying you care about people because they share a political system with you would make sense - you mutually govern each other. But you're saying you don't care about the political system, you just care about people more because they happened to be born in between the same two oceans as you? How is that any more arbitrary than playing favorites based on gender or skin color?
yeah i don't really get it either, and i think alot of people here (both in the u.s. and on ap) confuse patriotism with nationalism.
Well, good sir, that's because the dictionary defines patriotism as "Love of and devotion to one's country" and nationalism as "Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation." So unless you can explain why dedicating oneself to the "nation" called the USA is bad but dedicating oneself to the "country" called the USA is okay, people will probably go on assuming that the ideas are pretty similar.
open mind
08/25/08, 12:32 AM
Wrong. Our Constitution establishes our borders. A Constitution is a document that establishes a system of government, the system of courts that define our borders, the military that maintains them, and so on. If there is no way to define or protect a border, how does it exist as anything other than an unverifiable claim, or an arbitrary geographic assertion (like the "border" between Central and South America)?
As for law, it at the very least must be formally recognized, binding, and enforceable. Sounds kind of like a government, eh?
But I'm willing to play in your sandbox: how are you defining "country"?
Because you ought to care about those people for being people, not for living in the same arbitrary geographic and political entity as you. Really, saying you care about people because they share a political system with you would make sense - you mutually govern each other. But you're saying you don't care about the political system, you just care about people more because they happened to be born in between the same two oceans as you? How is that any more arbitrary than playing favorites based on gender or skin color?
Well, good sir, that's because the dictionary defines patriotism as "Love of and devotion to one's country" and nationalism as "Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation." So unless you can explain why dedicating oneself to the "nation" called the USA is bad but dedicating oneself to the "country" called the USA is okay, people will probably go on assuming that the ideas are pretty similar.
i'll take the high road and not take on the tone of a condescending jackass here.
our constitution did not establish our borders as we know them.
systems of governing do not automattically depend on a constitution to exist.
militias can exist without a government.
laws do not in fact have to be formally recognized, binding, and enforceable to exist.
in the context of patriotism i define country as the people i know and the land i live on.
i care about all people (i don't understand why you assume otherwise), and there's nothing inherently wrong with including the people in my country in that group.
what the fuck is that last paragraph all about?
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