Why are you here?

[Lueda Alia]

If you're over 18 and support the WAR in Iraq... then what the hell are you doing here? Why aren't you out there to fight for what you believe in?

It's so easy to say you support the war but if it was your turn to serve... I doubt you'd all still think the same way. And if you're going to say that you would... then tell me.. why aren't you there right now?

[yeat182]

If you're over 18 and support the WAR in Iraq... then what the hell are you doing here? Why aren't you out there to fight for what you believe in?

you don't have to be fighting to support the war. just like if you don't support the war you aren't un-patriotic.

It's so easy to say you support the war but if it was your turn to serve... I doubt you'd all still think the same way. And if you're going to say that you would... then tell me.. why aren't you there right now?

i think you have totally overlooked the fact that our military is an all VOLUNTEER military. if you want to fight, you sign up and go, if you don't, you don't have to. there are any number of reasons why people don't go, not the least of which is they don't want to die.

[commatosa]

If you're over 18 and support the WAR in Iraq... then what the hell are you doing here? Why aren't you out there to fight for what you believe in?

It's so easy to say you support the war but if it was your turn to serve... I doubt you'd all still think the same way. And if you're going to say that you would... then tell me.. why aren't you there right now?

I personally think that you have a VERY good point. The only way to justify a war is if you would be willing to fight it yourself. Do you think it's worth dying for? I sure as hell don't. I don't even think it's worth paying taxes for.

[yeat182]

I personally think that you have a VERY good point. The only way to justify a war is if you would be willing to fight it yourself. Do you think it's worth dying for? I sure as hell don't. I don't even think it's worth paying taxes for.

that is the beauty of an all volunteer military. if you don't agree with it, you don't have to sign up and you don't have to fight.

[commatosa]

that is the beauty of an all volunteer military. if you don't agree with it, you don't have to sign up and you don't have to fight.

Well, you DO agree with it. So shouldn't you go fight it. Don't defend it by talking about it. Go do something about it. Like the saying goes. You can talk the talk but can you walk the walk. By the way, there are people who volunteered for the army but don't want to fight in this war. Do you think people from the National Guard ever thought in their wildest dreams that a president would actually abuse the powers of calling them up?

[yeat182]

Well, you DO agree with it. So shouldn't you go fight it. Don't defend it by talking about it. Go do something about it. Like the saying goes. You can talk the talk but can you walk the walk. By the way, there are people who volunteered for the army but don't want to fight in this war. Do you think people from the National Guard ever thought in their wildest dreams that a president would actually abuse the powers of calling them up?

why do i need to fight to support the war? there are many ways to show support without firing a weapon. This arguement is similar as if i were to say, if you don't like the way the government does things, move to Canada. it doesn't make sense. you can have an opinion on any issue, without haveing to be directly involved in it.

also, if you volunteered then you know what you are getting into, you know that the possibility exists that you will have to fight a war you may not agree with. and the president didn't abuse any powers, so if National Guardsmen didn't think there was a chance they might actually be called upon to fight, then they are ignorant.

[commatosa]

why do i need to fight to support the war? there are many ways to show support without firing a weapon. This arguement is similar as if i were to say, if you don't like the way the government does things, move to Canada. it doesn't make sense. you can have an opinion on any issue, without haveing to be directly involved in it.

also, if you volunteered then you know what you are getting into, you know that the possibility exists that you will have to fight a war you may not agree with. and the president didn't abuse any powers, so if National Guardsmen didn't think there was a chance they might actually be called upon to fight, then they are ignorant.

It's not like the only thing the army has to offer is to defend your country. There's so many benefits.

[_astheruinfalls]

why do i need to fight to support the war? there are many ways to show support without firing a weapon. This arguement is similar as if i were to say, if you don't like the way the government does things, move to Canada. it doesn't make sense. you can have an opinion on any issue, without haveing to be directly involved in it.

also, if you volunteered then you know what you are getting into, you know that the possibility exists that you will have to fight a war you may not agree with. and the president didn't abuse any powers, so if National Guardsmen didn't think there was a chance they might actually be called upon to fight, then they are ignorant.
But it does make sense. That's like someone who doesn't support abortions getting an abortion; it doesn't connect. If you support the war, why aren't you helping your fellow bretheren? Why are you not supporting the president you hold so dearly to?

But they did not think they would be forced to go to a war they feel is unjust. Just because you sign up for something doesn't mean you agree with everything they do. If you don't agree with it, why should you do it?

[Lueda Alia]

you don't have to be fighting to support the war. just like if you don't support the war you aren't un-patriotic.

I'm taking that as a joke cause it doesn't make sense at all.


All I'm saying is that you should go fight if you really support the WAR.. and the reasons for this War. And since you also love Bushie Boy. What are you still doing here? Get off your ass and go there to help the Iraqis cause I know you love them, right?

[UndefinedBoy]

that is the beauty of an all volunteer military. if you don't agree with it, you don't have to sign up and you don't have to fight.

Makes it easy to be war-hungry.

[UndefinedBoy]

why do i need to fight to support the war? there are many ways to show support without firing a weapon. This arguement is similar as if i were to say, if you don't like the way the government does things, move to Canada. it doesn't make sense. you can have an opinion on any issue, without haveing to be directly involved in it.

You can be directly involved by voting and protesting if you don't agree with the government.

When the issue matters this much, people should have to be directly involved.

[Lueda Alia]

http://optruth.org


I think people like you who support the WAR, should end up like that, and not people who simply volunteer to PROTECT their country against REAL threats. But whatever, unfortunately.. all of you people who support this war, will be just a bunch of people who are all talk. And you don't love your country as much as you say you do. And you don't care about your country's safety as much as you say you do. Because if you did, you'd be there right now and not here, bragging about how big of a supporter of this war you are.

[cal1082]

If you're over 18 and support the WAR in Iraq... then what the hell are you doing here? Why aren't you out there to fight for what you believe in?

It's so easy to say you support the war but if it was your turn to serve... I doubt you'd all still think the same way. And if you're going to say that you would... then tell me.. why aren't you there right now?

No one wants to fight in a war. Doesnt matter if you agree with it or not. Pull your head out of your ass please.

Example if you think Bush stole the election why didnt you try to overthrow him? If you don't see it as legit, then you should be trying to overthrow him. Now is this logical? No, but your understanding of logic is lacking so perhaps you'll agree.

[Lueda Alia]

No one wants to fight in a war. Doesnt matter if you agree with it or not. Pull your head out of your ass please.

Example if you think Bush stole the election why didnt you try to overthrow him? If you don't see it as legit, then you should be trying to overthrow him. Now is this logical? No, but your understanding of logic is lacking so perhaps you'll agree.
I would've tried if I was an American.

But those are two different things.

So tell me Cal, you're prolly over 18... why aren't you fighting to protect your country right now?

[_astheruinfalls]

No one wants to fight in a war. Doesnt matter if you agree with it or not. Pull your head out of your ass please.

Example if you think Bush stole the election why didnt you try to overthrow him? If you don't see it as legit, then you should be trying to overthrow him. Now is this logical? No, but your understanding of logic is lacking so perhaps you'll agree.
If no one wants to fight a war then why do you support it so damn much? Because WMDs? Iminent threat? He was linked to Al Queda? That's all bullshit.

What do you think is going on this election? We are trying to overthrow him. If people tried to start a revolution, the US would go to shambles.

[UndefinedBoy]

also, if you volunteered then you know what you are getting into, you know that the possibility exists that you will have to fight a war you may not agree with. and the president didn't abuse any powers, so if National Guardsmen didn't think there was a chance they might actually be called upon to fight, then they are ignorant.

People join the army to protect the United States and uphold the Constitution...neither of which played any part in Iraq's "liberation."

[cal1082]

I would've tried if I was an American.

But those are two different things.

So tell me Cal, you're prolly over 18... why aren't you fighting to protect your country right now?

First off they won't allow me into service because I was born with club feet and have screws in my feet. Second, I'm in college working on a degree in political science and history. This will allow me to serve as well. There's more to war and service than carrying a gun on the front lines.

You are ignorant.

[cal1082]

I would've tried if I was an American.

But those are two different things.

So tell me Cal, you're prolly over 18... why aren't you fighting to protect your country right now?

I agree there 2 diffrent things, but they both have general stupid assumptions.

[Lueda Alia]

First off they won't allow me into service because I was born with club feet and have screws in my feet. Second, I'm in college working on a degree in political science and history. This will allow me to serve as well. There's more to war and service than carrying a gun on the front lines.

You are ignorant.
I'm sure they'd find you a job in the military if you were to volunteer. And not necessarily have you carrying a gun on the front lines either.

You're the one supporting an Idiot and I'm the ignorant? Oh Okay...

[cal1082]

If no one wants to fight a war then why do you support it so damn much? Because WMDs? Iminent threat? He was linked to Al Queda? That's all bullshit.

What do you think is going on this election? We are trying to overthrow him. If people tried to start a revolution, the US would go to shambles.


Do you think people wanted to fight in WW1 or 2? Imagine the fear of being on a boat floating to the shores of normandy and you have a very little chance of survival. Why do support it so damn much, simple because some people see it as neccessary.

Why do I wake up in the morning go to class then go to work? because it's neccesary.

[cal1082]

I'm sure they'd find you a job in the military if you were to volunteer. And not necessarily have you carrying a gun on the front lines either.

You're the one supporting an Idiot and I'm the ignorant? Oh Okay...

Your ignorant because of the general assumptions and lack of understanding of the situation.

[Lueda Alia]

I agree there 2 diffrent things, but they both have general stupid assumptions.
I don't think so.

When *I* support something, I fight for it because I believe in it. So how come you won't fight? If this war is something you really believe in and support? What the hell is stopping you?

[Lueda Alia]

Your ignorant because of the general assumptions and lack of understanding of the situation.
Keep the insults coming. I on the other hand, don't have to say much, because just the fact that you support a freakin Idiot says more about you than I ever could. :lol2:

[cal1082]

I don't think so.

When *I* support something, I fight for it because I believe in it. So how come you won't fight? If this war is something you really believe in and support? What the hell is stopping you?

See your ignorance, you asked the same question twice after it was already answered.......

First off they won't allow me into service because I was born with club feet and have screws in my feet. Second, I'm in college working on a degree in political science and history. This will allow me to serve as well. There's more to war and service than carrying a gun on the front lines.

[Lueda Alia]

See your ignorance, you asked the same question twice after it was already answered.......

First off they won't allow me into service because I was born with club feet and have screws in my feet. Second, I'm in college working on a degree in political science and history. This will allow me to serve as well. There's more to war and service than carrying a gun on the front lines.
Oh how about your ignorance.....


Read my reply to that.

[cal1082]

Keep the insults coming. I on the other hand, don't have to say much, because just the fact that you support a freakin Idiot says more about you than I ever could. :lol2:

Being ignorant is not an insult. I'm ingorant of a lot of things. The diffrence is I'm not generalizing on things I'm ignorant about.

[_astheruinfalls]

Do you think people wanted to fight in WW1 or 2? Imagine the fear of being on a boat floating to the shores of normandy and you have a very little chance of survival. Why do support it so damn much, simple because some people see it as neccessary.

Why do I wake up in the morning go to class then go to work? because it's neccesary.
If I truly believed in the reason for war, I would be proud. I would be proud knowing that I am defending what I believe in. I would be proud to know that I am doing what I want because it's the right thing. But I'm not saying it's a pleasant thing. By all means, I hate fighting and war. But sometimes, it is needed. WWII is a perfect example.

Is the Iraq war neccesary? No. So why are we there? And why are we STILL there?

[UndefinedBoy]

Do you think people wanted to fight in WW1 or 2? Imagine the fear of being on a boat floating to the shores of normandy and you have a very little chance of survival. Why do support it so damn much, simple because some people see it as neccessary.

Why do I wake up in the morning go to class then go to work? because it's neccesary.

Wait so you support the war this much because some people see it as necessary?

I don't understand the point of your other statement...

[cal1082]

If I truly believed in the reason for war, I would be proud. I would be proud knowing that I am defending what I believe in. I would be proud to know that I am doing what I want because it's the right thing. But I'm not saying it's a pleasant thing. By all means, I hate fighting and war. But sometimes, it is needed. WWII is a perfect example.

Is the Iraq war neccesary? No. So why are we there? And why are we STILL there?

No one is saying you can't be proud. Doesnt mean you want to fight. People are humans and can have fear.

[cal1082]

Wait so you support the war this much because some people see it as necessary?

I don't understand the point of your other statement...

I see it as necessary.

[Lueda Alia]

I see it as necessary.
Why?

[UndefinedBoy]

I see it as necessary.

For what?

[Lueda Alia]

No one is saying you can't be proud. Doesnt mean you want to fight. People are humans and can have fear.
Well... are you gonna let your fear take over your patriotism and love for your country AND Bush?

[_astheruinfalls]

No one is saying you can't be proud. Doesnt mean you want to fight. People are humans and can have fear.
But if you are proud of something and support it, would you not do anything in your power to show other people? To help them? Or is it only if you can gain from it? But when fighting comes to a point where it is needed, then you should be happy to know you are serving mankind.

And why do you see it as neccesary? Just curious.

[cal1082]

Well... are you gonna let your fear take over your patriotism and love for your country AND Bush?

What? I already told you I can't serve. To be honest I probably wouldn't volunteer unless it was necessary for me to volunteer. We have a force already capable, and when the war started I was a junior in college. Like I said, a person can serve there country in other aspects.

[cal1082]

For what?

stablizing the mideast, and our own protection.

[Lueda Alia]

What? I already told you I can't serve. To be honest I probably wouldn't volunteer unless it was necessary for me to volunteer. We have a force already capable, and when the war started I was a junior in college. Like I said, a person can serve there country in other aspects.
But nothing is as bad as being there fighting those "terrorists". I doubt you'd even go to Iraq if they allowed you to. Which they would. And as I said, not necessarily to carry a gun in the front lines either.

[_astheruinfalls]

stablizing the mideast, and our own protection.
The Middle East, I can understand. But what about Saudi Arabia? Iran? Pakistan? Come on now.

And our own protection? I'm sorry, but to me, that is pure bullshit. They haven't had the capabilities to produce weapons since '91. What were they going to do? Yell at us?

[Lueda Alia]

The Middle East, I can understand. But what about Saudi Arabia? Iran? Pakistan? Come on now.

And our own protection? I'm sorry, but to me, that is pure bullshit. They haven't had the capabilities to produce weapons since '91. What were they going to do? Yell at us?
hahahahahaha.

[cal1082]

But nothing is as bad as being there fighting those "terrorists". I doubt you'd even go to Iraq if they allowed you to. Which they would. And as I said, not necessarily to carry a gun in the front lines either.

I promise you I can't get into the services. I've asked

[cal1082]

The Middle East, I can understand. But what about Saudi Arabia? Iran? Pakistan? Come on now.

And our own protection? I'm sorry, but to me, that is pure bullshit. They haven't had the capabilities to produce weapons since '91. What were they going to do? Yell at us?

Ok about he middle east. We are not worried about Saudi Arabia and Pakistan's current governments attacking Israel. Iran....yes there is a threat as Bush outlined in his state of the union speech last year.

On our home front. Like I've said read the David Kay report and look at the summary of the duelfar report.

[commatosa]

The fact is that no one ever wants to fight a war. But there are people in this country courageous enough to volunteer and say they'll fight if we don't have a choice. That's admirable. But did we have a choice? Yes. And the fact is that this president abused that power. He put hundreds of thousands of young people in harms way when he didn't have to. They'll fight for us but only if it's absolutely necessary. And it wasn't. That's why this president needs to go home because there's been enough blood spilled on his watch and It saddens me. He hasn't been careful, he's been wreckless and gung-ho. And that's not an opinion. That's a fact.

[PunkDrums182]

i have thought about joining the army, but one thing is, im not in good enough shape, sure im in pretty good shape, i play sports, im average weight and kind of strong, but running i just cant do, i have bad knees, and my parents smoke like crazy and i cant run too far without being out of breath, also, some people may support the war and be crippled, should they go over to iraq? i mean there is many reasons why not to go to war..

[venus/bacchus]

The fact is that no one ever wants to fight a war. But there are people in this country courageous enough to volunteer and say they'll fight if we don't have a choice. That's admirable. But did we have a choice? Yes. And the fact is that this president abused that power. He put hundreds of thousands of young people in harms way when he didn't have to. They'll fight for us but only if it's absolutely necessary. And it wasn't. That's why this president needs to go home because there's been enough blood spilled on his watch and It saddens me. He hasn't been careful, he's been wreckless and gung-ho. And that's not an opinion. That's a fact.
If we leave right now, there will be even more blood spilled than if we stayed. Just not American. Also, I'm assuming you weren't serious about claiming that carelessness isn't opinion.

Anyway, about this whole "fight if you support it!" garbage. For one, support doesn't have to be physical. Why aren't you marching on the street corners everyday if you are so strongly against it? That would be because it wouldn't make sense to commit yourself to an operation that would have very little benefit if you were involved or not.

Second, I can do what I believe is best for the country without having to actually go to war. I can stay in school, then get a job, then pour money into the economy. The war isn't the only thing our country does.

Fighting in a war or enlisting for the army is far more complex than "do you support the action or not?". You have to understand that.

[UndefinedBoy]

stablizing the mideast, and our own protection.

Have either proved successful? We now know we were never at risk and we've done everything but stabilize in Iraq.

[dretti]

If we leave right now, there will be even more blood spilled than if we stayed. Just not American. Also, I'm assuming you weren't serious about claiming that carelessness isn't opinion.

Anyway, about this whole "fight if you support it!" garbage. For one, support doesn't have to be physical. Why aren't you marching on the street corners everyday if you are so strongly against it? That would be because it wouldn't make sense to commit yourself to an operation that would have very little benefit if you were involved or not.

Second, I can do what I believe is best for the country without having to actually go to war. I can stay in school, then get a job, then pour money into the economy. The war isn't the only thing our country does.

Fighting in a war or enlisting for the army is far more complex than "do you support the action or not?". You have to understand that.


Thank you. Best statement in this thread

[dretti]

If you're over 18 and support the WAR in Iraq... then what the hell are you doing here? Why aren't you out there to fight for what you believe in?

It's so easy to say you support the war but if it was your turn to serve... I doubt you'd all still think the same way. And if you're going to say that you would... then tell me.. why aren't you there right now?


Ignorance is bliss..

[Love As Arson]

If we truly went to Iraq for freedom, and they wish us to leave, then are we not being oppressive by staying?
Let us leave, and let them have the future of their country in their hands. If they choose a dictator, then at least THEY chose it. If they choose civil war, then THEY chose civil war. At least they have a choice in their government and the future of their nation.

[yeat182]

But it does make sense. That's like someone who doesn't support abortions getting an abortion; it doesn't connect. If you support the war, why aren't you helping your fellow bretheren? Why are you not supporting the president you hold so dearly to?


a better comparison would be someone that supports abortion, yet doesn't get one. especially men. by that logic, a man can't be pro-choice because he can't get an abortion. and a woman could still be pro-choice and never have an abortion. the two aren't mutually exclusive. and again, there are many other ways to support the troops and the president with out fighting.

But they did not think they would be forced to go to a war they feel is unjust. Just because you sign up for something doesn't mean you agree with everything they do. If you don't agree with it, why should you do it?

the knew they may be called on to fight. if they assumed that they would be willing to fight whatever war came up, that is their fault. they have enough common sense to know that if you sign up you may be asked to do something you don't want to do. if they can't handle that, don't sign up.

[yeat182]

I'm taking that as a joke cause it doesn't make sense at all.


All I'm saying is that you should go fight if you really support the WAR.. and the reasons for this War. And since you also love Bushie Boy. What are you still doing here? Get off your ass and go there to help the Iraqis cause I know you love them, right?


that is one of the most ignorant things i've seen on this board in a long time.

[yeat182]

I don't think so.

When *I* support something, I fight for it because I believe in it. So how come you won't fight? If this war is something you really believe in and support? What the hell is stopping you?

Canadians don't fight for anything. we protect them. if you care about your country so much, why don't you sign up and protect yourself and lift some of the burden of the american taxpayer?

[yeat182]

Have either proved successful? We now know we were never at risk and we've done everything but stabilize in Iraq.

Lybia disarmed.

[richter915]

Lybia disarmed.
and N. Korea builds more nukes to make up for that...what's your point?

[richter915]

ya with the original topic...I too felt that way...anyone who is a vehement supporter of Bush's war in Iraq should go and support the troops...no...not like...make tiny shit posters...I mean give contributions or enlist in the military if they are of age and support it. I know people who support the war and have done just that and I will have some level of respect for them. When I hear someone say "good Bush should go kill some more diaperheads" which I hear quite a lot...then I think "why don't you do that you pussy?" (I'm the real pussy cause I don't say it to their face because I want to avoid conflict)...but again...if you're so pro-war that you will make those sorts of comments...you should definitely enlist.

In response to Venus/Bacchus...I just think that by me staying in school and doing the things you mentioned...I'm doing my part to fight against the war...so it's a real weak argument you bring up because it can go both ways. If someone is pro-war...or anti-war...they have to do more than live the american dream for it to have an impact.

[venus/bacchus]

In response to Venus/Bacchus...I just think that by me staying in school and doing the things you mentioned...I'm doing my part to fight against the war...so it's a real weak argument you bring up because it can go both ways. If someone is pro-war...or anti-war...they have to do more than live the american dream for it to have an impact.
I didn't mean my staying in school was in support of the war, I meant there are far more complex issues to be looked at than just if you like the war, you should fight or not. Let's say I was in the war at this moment. You could equally say "you support Bush's tax cuts so much, why don't you go back to America and earn an income." It's just a ridiculous argument. Your opinion doesn't solely rest on your participation.

[Slater]

If you're over 18 and support the WAR in Iraq... then what the hell are you doing here? Why aren't you out there to fight for what you believe in?

It's so easy to say you support the war but if it was your turn to serve... I doubt you'd all still think the same way. And if you're going to say that you would... then tell me.. why aren't you there right now?


Because I already served my time over there.

[richter915]

I didn't mean my staying in school was in support of the war, I meant there are far more complex issues to be looked at than just if you like the war, you should fight or not. Let's say I was in the war at this moment. You could equally say "you support Bush's tax cuts so much, why don't you go back to America and earn an income." It's just a ridiculous argument. Your opinion doesn't solely rest on your participation.
well I guess that that's where we disagree. I'm not talking about people who are just like "ya, the war is good." It's the ignorant people who think that by doing stupid things like insulting Iraqis and things like that...if they have such extreme views and comments...I think they should take up arms and prove it...that's just my belief.

There is a difference though between war and tax cuts...so by saying that I would use the same logic in both situations is not a valid assumption at all.

[richter915]

Because I already served my time over there.
you make your military service sound like it's serving time in prison.

[yeat182]

you make your military service sound like it's serving time in prison.

no, YOU make his military service sound like serving time in prison.

[richter915]

no I don't. I read what he said and that's a completely fair interpretation of it. "Because I already served my time over there." That doesn't really sound like he's all too proud (though he very well may be proud) of what he's done for the US. If he had something like "I've already completed my military service in Iraq" I wouldn't have said a thing.

[yeat182]

no I don't. I read what he said and that's a completely fair interpretation of it. "Because I already served my time over there." That doesn't really sound like he's all too proud (though he very well may be proud) of what he's done for the US. If he had something like "I've already completed my military service in Iraq" I wouldn't have said a thing.

fair enough, i read it a different way than you did i guess.

[venus/bacchus]

well I guess that that's where we disagree. I'm not talking about people who are just like "ya, the war is good." It's the ignorant people who think that by doing stupid things like insulting Iraqis and things like that...if they have such extreme views and comments...I think they should take up arms and prove it...that's just my belief.

There is a difference though between war and tax cuts...so by saying that I would use the same logic in both situations is not a valid assumption at all.
Who insults the Iraqis? Where did that even come from? The original topic was "if you support the war, you should fight in it, or you're a hypocrite." It wasn't the extremists, it was everyone.

There's not much of a difference. They're both national policies that one can support, and if they aren't "involved" in it actively, they've been labeled a hypocrite and "all talk".

[richter915]

Who insults the Iraqis? Where did that even come from? The original topic was "if you support the war, you should fight in it, or you're a hypocrite." It wasn't the extremists, it was everyone.

There's not much of a difference. They're both national policies that one can support, and if they aren't "involved" in it actively, they've been labeled a hypocrite and "all talk".
Right so to the original argument (pro-war then go fight)...I'm not necessarily in support of that logic...I think that someone who is pro-war should be more willing to take up arms if necessary. My opinions were directed more towards extremists who talk out of their asses cause they don't know better.

Yes they are both national policies...but one results in the death of people while the other will lower our standard of living (which ya I guess would kill some people but it's not as extreme as war). I again feel that if someone feels a certain way and is not willing to go out and do something...they are indeed just "all talk"...not necessarily hypocrites...but I just feel someone should be more involved if they are in support of it.

I guess the misunderstanding is my definition of "support". I think someone who is willing to defend why they believe a POV does...in the smallest way possible...support that topic. I think people who are out there trying to change the minds of other "support" their issue more.

[venus/bacchus]

Right so to the original argument (pro-war then go fight)...I'm not necessarily in support of that logic...I think that someone who is pro-war should be more willing to take up arms if necessary. My opinions were directed more towards extremists who talk out of their asses cause they don't know better.

Yes they are both national policies...but one results in the death of people while the other will lower our standard of living (which ya I guess would kill some people but it's not as extreme as war). I again feel that if someone feels a certain way and is not willing to go out and do something...they are indeed just "all talk"...not necessarily hypocrites...but I just feel someone should be more involved if they are in support of it.

I guess the misunderstanding is my definition of "support". I think someone who is willing to defend why they believe a POV does...in the smallest way possible...support that topic. I think people who are out there trying to change the minds of other "support" their issue more.
I think we can both agree that extremists are about as annoying as it gets, so we can probably drop that.

Just because they have different results doesn't mean they aren't the same in principle. The value of living versus the value of a good life could be debated also, so you can't say that one is greater than the other. About this war, if I was needed to fight, I would go in a second. At the moment though, there'd be no reason for me to go. They have the trained troops already and I can stay in America and contribute to the country in other ways.

I guess it is all perspective. In most cases I don't think taking your message to the streets is beneficial at all. In fact, it's probably detrimental to your cause. As humans we basically hate to have messages shoved down our throats. If someone is trying to tell you what to think, most people will believe the exact opposite out of obstinance and just plain human nature. So I think that just being on this message board discussing the matter shows you "support" the cause (or are at least realistic about your support) more than if you took it to the streets.

[yeat182]

Right so to the original argument (pro-war then go fight)...I'm not necessarily in support of that logic...I think that someone who is pro-war should be more willing to take up arms if necessary. My opinions were directed more towards extremists who talk out of their asses cause they don't know better.



if the question were, "if you are pro-war then would you fight (or join the military) if you were drafted?" then that would be a much fairer question. I would certainly go if i were drafted.

[UndefinedBoy]

Lybia disarmed.

And how bout what North Korea and Iran have been up to?

[yeat182]

And how bout what North Korea and Iran have been up to?

i didn't reailze that N. Korea was considered part of the Middle east? as for Iran, they allowed in the IAE, which was a big step forward. at least now we know what they are doing and how they are doing it.

[UndefinedBoy]

i didn't reailze that N. Korea was considered part of the Middle east? as for Iran, they allowed in the IAE, which was a big step forward. at least now we know what they are doing and how they are doing it.

Maybe not the middle east but the "axis of evil." And isn't that what this is all about?

[yeat182]

Maybe not the middle east but the "axis of evil." And isn't that what this is all about?

cal responded that the reason we went into iraq as to stabalize the middle east and for our own protection, and you said we haven't succeded in either, and i showed how we have helped stabalize the middle east.

[cal1082]

And how bout what North Korea and Iran have been up to?

these questions should be posed to the world community.

[UndefinedBoy]

cal responded that the reason we went into iraq as to stabalize the middle east and for our own protection, and you said we haven't succeded in either, and i showed how we have helped stabalize the middle east.

Understood, but the very country we invaded is the one in chaos right now...I wouldn't consider that a stabilization, but I get your point.

[UndefinedBoy]

these questions should be posed to the world community.

We're the ones who declared them part of the "Axis of evil," we're the ones who have taken on the role of world police, we're the ones getting into nation building, we're the ones who shut out the world community LAST time...I thought the UN was a joke and the French were pussies? Why should they be involved now?

[yeat182]

Understood, but the very country we invaded is the one in chaos right now...I wouldn't consider that a stabilization, but I get your point.

i agree, the country itself isn't stable, but that is due, almost entirely, to foreign terrorists who came to Iraq for this specific purpose. if they could drive out the US they could set up a friendly governemnt that would support their extremist views, which is why it is nessesary to stay there until the Iraqis can take care of the situation themselves. and while there are some Iraqis involved in the attacks, the iraqi people aren't the ones causing the trouble.

[UndefinedBoy]

i agree, the country itself isn't stable, but that is due, almost entirely, to foreign terrorists who came to Iraq for this specific purpose. if they could drive out the US they could set up a friendly governemnt that would support their extremist views, which is why it is nessesary to stay there until the Iraqis can take care of the situation themselves. and while there are some Iraqis involved in the attacks, the iraqi people aren't the ones causing the trouble.

This is further proof that the war has only encouraged terrorism...

[yeat182]

We're the ones who declared them part of the "Axis of evil," we're the ones who have taken on the role of world police, we're the ones getting into nation building, we're the ones who shut out the world community LAST time...I thought the UN was a joke and the French were pussies? Why should they be involved now?


we didn't take on the role of world police, it fell to us because the UN is corrupt, as are the french and russians, and while they passed a resolution calling for "serious consequences" they failed to live up to that promise. we were not the ones that shut out the world, the french and russians are. we got over 40 nations to help us, it was only 2 that decided they didn't want to. just because they make the most noise, doesn't mean they are the majority. and if the UN wants to maintain any credibiltiy whatsoever, they would step up and do something in Iran and N. Korea, failure to do so simply reinforces the concept that the whole organization is useless.

[cal1082]

We're the ones who declared them part of the "Axis of evil," we're the ones who have taken on the role of world police, we're the ones getting into nation building, we're the ones who shut out the world community LAST time...I thought the UN was a joke and the French were pussies? Why should they be involved now?

Bush administration never said the UN was a joke. They've been trying to get the UN in Iraq the whole time. You don't think North Korea is a world threat, or Iran is a world threat? If you don't I seriously think you need to relook at everything.

Iran is a huge threat to Israel, and if Iran continues seeking nuclear capability you might see Israel strike first and take out there nuclear plants like they did in Iraq. Also North Korea has not been hesitant to buy and sell nuclear technology and parts. This is clearly not just a US problem.

[UndefinedBoy]

we didn't take on the role of world police, it fell to us because the UN is corrupt, as are the french and russians, and while they passed a resolution calling for "serious consequences" they failed to live up to that promise. we were not the ones that shut out the world, the french and russians are. we got over 40 nations to help us, it was only 2 that decided they didn't want to. just because they make the most noise, doesn't mean they are the majority. and if the UN wants to maintain any credibiltiy whatsoever, they would step up and do something in Iran and N. Korea, failure to do so simply reinforces the concept that the whole organization is useless.

Are you still trying to claim that we had a huge coalition of the willing? C'mon yeat, 20 soldiers here and there doesn't sound so willing.

I agree the UN should take some sort of action towards N. Korea and Iran, but you guys continually refer to them as a joke but always expect them to do what the US wants.

"Serious consequences" shouldn't have had to be war. There were other options, can you still not see that there was a better way to do this?

[Slater]

you make your military service sound like it's serving time in prison.

I enjoyed my time in, but Lockheed Martin offered me a job paying a helluva lot more than the military could offer, while allowing me to continue working with the Marines.

[Slater]

no I don't. I read what he said and that's a completely fair interpretation of it. "Because I already served my time over there." That doesn't really sound like he's all too proud (though he very well may be proud) of what he's done for the US. If he had something like "I've already completed my military service in Iraq" I wouldn't have said a thing.

It doesn't really bother me what people think. I enjoyed my time in the military, and the only reason I left was because of money. If asked back through the "backdoor draft" (which is possible, because I still work on the same radar, and keep myself in shape in case of call up), I'd do it in a heartbeat.


What am I supposed to do? Flaunt my service? Fuck it. I did my job, and did it well. Not all veterans parade their medals and service around like it's a fucking trophy. Let's leave it at that, with this final shout out:

God Bless America and the U.S. Marine Corps

[Slater]

I'm sure they'd find you a job in the military if you were to volunteer. And not necessarily have you carrying a gun on the front lines either.

You're the one supporting an Idiot and I'm the ignorant? Oh Okay...

If you are in Cal's situation, they won't let you join, unless you can complete the PST. Since he has problems with his feet, he could have a problem running the 3 miles in the allocated time. All of our Military has to meet the requirements to join. Even if he was all gung-ho, he'd have a hard time getting in.

Yes. You are the ignorant.

[yeat182]

Are you still trying to claim that we had a huge coalition of the willing? C'mon yeat, 20 soldiers here and there doesn't sound so willing.

i'm not expecting other countries to match our troop totals because we are the second largest military in the world, other countries simply do not have the resources to send a lot of troops and other equiptment. i'm not holding them to the standards of our military. this does not mean that they are not sacrificing a lot to send aid. nor does it mean that their contributions should be looked down on because it does not equal ours. if you were donating to charity, is your contribution worth less than someone that donates a million dollars? you gave as much as you could and they would appreciate it, no matter the amount.

I agree the UN should take some sort of action towards N. Korea and Iran, but you guys continually refer to them as a joke but always expect them to do what the US wants.

"Serious consequences" shouldn't have had to be war. There were other options, can you still not see that there was a better way to do this?

what other option would there be for "serious consequences"? Saddam had corrupted the UN, the oil for food program was a shame, more regulations and restrictions wouldn't have done a thing because Saddam had already bought his way around them. again, the only 2 countries that wouldn't vote for military action was France and Russia, the same two countries that are at the forefront of the oil for food scandal. if the UN wants to remain a legitimate international organization, they should step up and do something about N. Korea or Iran, until then, in my opinion they are a joke.

[Lueda Alia]

If you are in Cal's situation, they won't let you join, unless you can complete the PST. Since he has problems with his feet, he could have a problem running the 3 miles in the allocated time. All of our Military has to meet the requirements to join. Even if he was all gung-ho, he'd have a hard time getting in.

Yes. You are the ignorant.
Seems like all you conservatives say in debates are, "you're ignorant", "you don't know shit".. to just about anyone who disagrees with you. Can't you have a normal debate without having to call the others any names? Or is that the only way you can actually try to make the other people seem "weaker" because you don't have jackshit to say?

[yeat182]

Seems like all you conservatives say in debates are, "you're ignorant", "you don't know shit".. to just about anyone who disagrees with you. Can't you have a normal debate without having to call the others any names? Or is that the only way you can actually try to make the other people seem "weaker" because you don't have jackshit to say?


when you say something ignorant, people are going to call you ignorant.

[Lueda Alia]

when you say something ignorant, people are going to call you ignorant.
Ummm... Republicans on this board call you ignorant whenever you don't agree with them.

[Lueda Alia]

When you can't win an arguement you rely on that? His point isn't anyless valid because he called you ignorant.
No I don't "rely" on anything. I was simply stating a fact, as I have before. And I'm not talking about his point whatsoever. That's fine, he can make it. But why does he have to go call me "ignorant"? Not only me, but other liberals on the board here too. We all get called "ignorants" if we say something that they don't like. So I'm sorry to disappoint you, but it looks to me like Republicans are the ones to rely on attacks all the damn time.

It's too bad that they can get away with such things though, because on other boards I go to, you're not allowed to attack any members. You can still attack their views whatsoever. And it should be that way here too but oh well.

[dretti]

Ummm... Republicans on this board call you ignorant whenever you don't agree with them.


It works both ways, although in this case, I have to agree with Yeat.


You got a little out of hand on this topic.

[Lueda Alia]

It works both ways, although in this case, I have to agree with Yeat.


You got a little out of hand on this topic.
Oh I did? Because you didn't agree with it?

And I personally have never called anyone ignorant or anything like that when I've been really debating with them. It's just not my thing and to be honest.. I haven't seen many other Democrats here do it either. But I can't speak for everyone anyway, only for myself.

[dretti]

It's too bad that they can get away with such things though, because on other boards I go to, you're not allowed to attack any members. You can still attack their views whatsoever. And it should be that way here too but oh well.


Hahahaha. That is most definitely, a liberal forum. Do you talk about saving trees too? Sounds very boring...I get a kick out of this.

[dretti]

Oh I did? Because you didn't agree with it?

And I personally have never called anyone ignorant or anything like that when I've been really debating with them. It's just not my thing and to be honest.. I haven't seen many other Democrats here do it either. But I can't speak for everyone anyway, only for myself.


I gave up debating on these forums, do to Democrats calling me ignorant for every comeback, it got old, and now I just think everyone on here is crazy, and needs to chill the fuck out. Its changing people into these liberal nazi's. It's not so attractive...

[yeat182]

Ummm... Republicans on this board call you ignorant whenever you don't agree with them.

nope

[dretti]

What are you talking about?
You only look for what you want to see.


........ :) .........


I think you just made the statement that I was searching to say...

[Lueda Alia]

I gave up debating on these forums, do to Democrats calling me ignorant for every comeback, it got old, and now I just think everyone on here is crazy, and needs to chill the fuck out. Its changing people into these liberal nazi's. It's not so attractive...
Being Liberal isn't a bad thing. I honestly don't even know why a lot of you consider it being a bad thing because it's not at all. But I won't get into how being a liberal is a good thing.

And since you're so damn conservative, I suggest you never come here because we may all seem ignorant to you. Cause just so you know, the Liberal party has been in power for a long ass time in Canada, and people here are pretty Liberal [obviously].

[dretti]

Being Liberal isn't a bad thing. I honestly don't even know why a lot of you consider it being a bad thing because it's not at all. But I won't get into how being a liberal is a good thing.

And since you're so damn conservative, I suggest you never come here because we may all seem ignorant to you. Cause just so you know, the Liberal party has been in power for a long ass time in Canada, and people here are pretty Liberal [obviously].



Why would I want to go to Canada in the first place? Its cold up there...

[Lueda Alia]

Why would I want to go to Canada in the first place? Its cold up there...

You're right. It is. It's winter all the time here, so yeah, definitely wouldn't like to live here. Too cold. And BTW.. we also live in igloos. It's warm inside actually. Honestly. But oh well, if you can't handle the cold all the time, then yeah.. too bad.

[dretti]

You're right. It is. It's winter all the time here, so yeah, definitely wouldn't like to live here. Too cold. And BTW.. we also live in igloos. It's warm inside actually. Honestly. But oh well, if you can't handle the cold all the time, then yeah.. too bad.


Calm Down, it was a joke.

[Lueda Alia]

I was actually going to say, "I hope that's a joke" at the end of my post.. but then again... I've met Americans from Chicago... that really thought all of the crap I posted above.. so you just never know.

[dretti]

I was actually going to say, "I hope that's a joke" at the end of my post.. but then again... I've met Americans from Chicago... that really thought all of the crap I posted above.. so you just never know.


I live in fucking Nebraska. If I leave a state and talk to other people, they think our state is full of cowboys and people without electricity. Believe me, I know how stupid these people can be, so I guess I understand

[Lueda Alia]

I live in fucking Nebraska. If I leave a state and talk to other people, they think our state is full of cowboys and people without electricity. Believe me, I know how stupid these people can be, so I guess I understand
hahahaha. can't say I know anything about Nebraska... but I would never in a million years think that stuff.

I agree.. people are ignorant sometimes. I talked about this with one of my friends from the states, and she said it's because in America you don't really learn about other countries & their history... so I can see why. But I still think that's a bad thing. I mean.. ok yeah.. not knowing about some small countries far away would be understandable... but geez.. we're just next door... how much different could we be?

[dretti]

hahahaha. can't say I know anything about Nebraska... but I would never in a million years think that stuff.

I agree.. people are ignorant sometimes. I talked about this with one of my friends from the states, and she said it's because in America you don't really learn about other countries & their history... so I can see why. But I still think that's a bad thing. I mean.. ok yeah.. not knowing about some small countries far away would be understandable... but geez.. we're just next door... how much different could we be?


Yeah, I definitely agree with you on that. Even the teachers here say we aren't educated enough on other countries, but yet they don't change anything to teach it to us. We are ignorant little bastards over here in the states. I could tell you some stuff about canda, ha. But nothing major. Almost nothing political at all.

[Lueda Alia]

Wasn't canada occupied by the french for awhile?
When was that?


90% of Canadians speak English. And even the people in Quebec.. whose first language is French.... all speak English.

[richter915]

Wasn't canada occupied by the french for awhile?
yes stop living in the 1700s please...they weren't occupied by the French...the French came to canada and exploited the natives and set up colonies...kinda like how the English/German/Scottish did in the US.

[venus/bacchus]

Ummm... Republicans on this board call you ignorant whenever you don't agree with them.
It didn't used to be like that, but recently a lot of people have been posting things that are one-sided, propaganda pieces from unreliable sources. Believe it or not, we used to have pretty healthy conversation.

But if it looks like a dog and it smells like it dog, then it probably is, so let's just give it a walk.

[richter915]

It didn't used to be like that, but recently a lot of people have been posting things that are one-sided, propaganda pieces from unreliable sources. Believe it or not, we used to have pretty healthy conversation.

But if it looks like a dog and it smells like it dog, then it probably is, so let's just give it a walk.
I say we eat the dog instead.

[Slater]

Seems like all you conservatives say in debates are, "you're ignorant", "you don't know shit".. to just about anyone who disagrees with you. Can't you have a normal debate without having to call the others any names? Or is that the only way you can actually try to make the other people seem "weaker" because you don't have jackshit to say?

I was just making fun of the fact you used ignorant as a noun.

[Slater]

Ummm... Republicans on this board call you ignorant whenever you don't agree with them.

I didn't call you ignorant. I called you an ignorant. Which was supposed to hammer home that ignorant is not a noun. Since it actually is (I looked it up 2 seconds ago), I apologize and admit that I am the ignorant.

I still feel it sounds wrong to say "You're an ignorant", but hey, I am one.

[venus/bacchus]

I was just making fun of the fact you used ignorant as a noun.
ignorant

\Ig"no*rant\, n. A person untaught or uninformed; one unlettered or unskilled; an ignoramous.

EDIT: I didn't read your message right below that, my bad