Farenhieght 9/11 then.... [Archive]

Justin_stacy

11/03/04, 08:07 AM

Its actually about the biggest piece of lie filled crap I’ve ever seen, but if you are going to think it makes some “good” point”s”, please watch up on some of the other movies that point out its blaring amount of lies and Moore’s questionable record, don’t just believe what is written about it in the liberal press….

http://www.fahrenhype911.com/

http://www.michaelmoorehatesamerica.com/

BrandNew20

11/03/04, 08:21 AM

wow, you two guys think its the worst movie ever...I couldn't have seen that one coming.

Anyways, its all in how you look at what Moore presents. For instance, Bush was on vacation the month prior to 9/11, but Moore presents him in doing pretty much nothing but golfing for a month. In reality, Bush did do some golfing while on vacation, but a president's vacation still includes alot of work. Its a movie of half truths, basically.

UndefinedBoy

11/03/04, 10:46 AM

There are a ton of half truths in that movie, some complete distortions, and some truths. Those truths will be ignored entirely by conservatives on this forum.

venus/bacchus

11/03/04, 10:57 AM

There are a ton of half truths in that movie, some complete distortions, and some truths. Those truths will be ignored entirely by conservatives on this forum.
When those truths are minced with falsities, they're obviously going to be overlooked. If they were presented in a respectful or decent manner, then they might hold some weight. You lose all credibility as a speaker of truth if you combine messages that you know aren't true.

UndefinedBoy

11/03/04, 12:24 PM

When those truths are minced with falsities, they're obviously going to be overlooked. If they were presented in a respectful or decent manner, then they might hold some weight. You lose all credibility as a speaker of truth if you combine messages that you know aren't true.

I don't think they should be...I regret Moore presents himself that way because some of what he said matters a LOT.

venus/bacchus

11/03/04, 01:54 PM

I don't think they should be...I regret Moore presents himself that way because some of what he said matters a LOT.
It doesn't matter how you think it should be, that's just how it is. If it's known that you lie or stretch the truth, no one will listen when you actually speak the truth, or even know the difference.

HopitalLobotomy

11/03/04, 02:39 PM

You guys are probably from USA...In a country that when you kill someone,you're killed at your turn.So,this movie's only the denunciation of all the killings your dumbass president made,just for petroleum (what the hell the 9/11 is about irak?No one of the terrorists implicated in this attack was from irak).Ok,there's some lies in this movie,but also alot of truth.Do you really wanna live under the reign of George W Murder?It's just a movie made for conscientisation...

Justin_stacy

11/03/04, 02:40 PM

There are a ton of half truths in that movie, some complete distortions, and some truths. Those truths will be ignored entirely by conservatives on this forum.

would you expect anyone to take someone seriously that has no credibility?

UndefinedBoy

11/03/04, 03:25 PM

It doesn't matter how you think it should be, that's just how it is. If it's known that you lie or stretch the truth, no one will listen when you actually speak the truth, or even know the difference.

Does this apply to Bush?

venus/bacchus

11/03/04, 04:31 PM

Does this apply to Bush?
I don't think so. I can't think of one time that he "lied" and blatantly knew he was lying.

_astheruinfalls

11/03/04, 04:42 PM

Of course he didn't know, he doesn't have enough intellect.

theESCO

11/03/04, 05:14 PM

don’t just believe what is written about it in the liberal press….

http://www.fahrenhype911.com/

http://www.michaelmoorehatesamerica.com/

But believe the far right...hmmm...

UndefinedBoy

11/03/04, 05:57 PM

I don't think so. I can't think of one time that he "lied" and blatantly knew he was lying.

He's most definitely stretched the truth.

venus/bacchus

11/03/04, 07:00 PM

Of course he didn't know, he doesn't have enough intellect.
Of course, you have to have at least an IQ of 140 to understand that you aren't giving factual information...
He's most definitely stretched the truth.
I guess that's a matter of opinion. I tend to believe he only told us what he believed to be true. There was a lot of intelligence backing up his points, it wasn't like he exactly had to stretch them.

Justin_stacy

11/03/04, 07:04 PM

But believe the far right...hmmm...
hmmmm, your not very quick are ya? The point was not to believe either side totally....F9/11 got a pass in the elite (liberal) media...but that doesn't mean that other people didn't see fault(s) in it....and the point was to view both sides before you comment on "how good" or "important" the fictional movie was....it doesn't do any good to just watch one...

yeat182

11/03/04, 07:38 PM

Of course he didn't know, he doesn't have enough intellect.

i knew this would happen if bush won, it would be back to petty name calling and whatnot...

4moreyearsbaby

11/03/04, 07:44 PM

i knew this would happen if bush won, it would be back to petty name calling and whatnot...

It's all they have left now. Their phenom, the boy wonder....he just got stomped in electoral and popular vote. They have nothing else.

yeat182

11/03/04, 07:46 PM

It's all they have left now. Their phenom, the boy wonder....he just got stomped in electoral and popular vote. They have nothing else.

yeah, well we don't have to make it worse, we can accept victory with a little bit of dignity.

UndefinedBoy

11/03/04, 08:06 PM

yeah, well we don't have to make it worse, we can accept victory with a little bit of dignity.

I haven't resorted to any of that...not everyone has.

The whole situation depresses me more than it angers me.

venus/bacchus

11/03/04, 08:09 PM

I haven't resorted to any of that...not everyone has.

The whole situation depresses me more than it angers me.
I think saying "this year America really showed its ignorance" or something to that affect isn't accepting a loss graciously

UndefinedBoy

11/03/04, 08:28 PM

I think saying "this year America really showed its ignorance" or something to that affect isn't accepting a loss graciously

Just my opinion.

shrguy

11/03/04, 08:31 PM

with possibly as much as 4 supreme court justices leaving within the next 4 years (info i heard so it could be wrong), THANK GOD Bush is in office because i'd be scared to know what kind of people kerry would appoint.

theESCO

11/03/04, 09:57 PM

YAY!!! Bush can appoint people who will overturn roe vs. wade...there must be a god, i'm sure of it now!

kchubb

11/03/04, 10:19 PM

So,this movie's only the denunciation of all the killings your dumbass president made,just for petroleum

How much oil have we taken again?

(what the hell the 9/11 is about irak?No one of the terrorists implicated in this attack was from irak).

You not being from the US may have missed our presidents speach after 9/11. He declared war on any nation harboring terrorist. Iraq admittedly harbored terrorists. That, coupled with the SEVERAL other justifications we had was more than enough to go there...

Ok,there's some lies in this movie,but also alot of truth.Do you really wanna live under the reign of George W Murder?It's just a movie made for conscientisation...[/

Why didn't he just make a factual movie? I dont get it. He consistantly is proven wrong and continues to outright lie. Could it be that he has to build these movies up with lies or else it would be like, 20 minutes long? There are several good points that he makes but they are completely negated when he flat our lies... and George W Murder... thats a good one...

kchubb

11/03/04, 10:22 PM

YAY!!! Bush can appoint people who will overturn roe vs. wade...there must be a god, i'm sure of it now!

YAY!!! Then maybe the people in this country can learn something called self responsability and consiquence...

KGRGTheDon

11/03/04, 10:24 PM

Let's see here....the poster for the movie in Europe is a burning american flag...

Wow. What a patriot.

theESCO

11/03/04, 10:25 PM

YAY!!! Then maybe the people in this country can learn something called self responsability and consiquence...

What the hell does that have to do with abortion?

KGRGTheDon

11/03/04, 10:29 PM

I'm just talking about Moore in general. He claims he is a patriot.

theESCO

11/03/04, 10:30 PM

And a patriot he is...There is nothing more patriotic than standing up and asking questions. That is what america was founded on...And I have this weird feeling you cuddle with Ann Coulter.

( and my response about abortion was directed to kchubb.)

kchubb

11/03/04, 10:38 PM

What the hell does that have to do with abortion?

Yes, exactly my point...

And a patriot he is...

According this his standards maybe...

"The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not “insurgents” or “terrorists” or “The Enemy.” They are the REVOLUTION, the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow -- and they will win." -- Moore

theESCO

11/03/04, 10:48 PM

Well, I'm sure the british saw us as terrorists and the enemy. And according to Colin Powell...they are winning.

So I guess, yea, he was pretty on point with that statement.

And my point was...Shrguy said:

with possibly as much as 4 supreme court justices leaving within the next 4 years (info i heard so it could be wrong), THANK GOD Bush is in office because i'd be scared to know what kind of people kerry would appoint.

and those judges will want to overturn roe vs. wade, like George the Great does..

Justin_stacy

11/03/04, 11:03 PM

What the hell does that have to do with abortion?
it would get rid of about 92% of them, that's what it has to do with abortion.....

theESCO

11/03/04, 11:12 PM

it would get rid of about 92% of them, that's what it has to do with abortion.....

All you pro-life people:

Tell me, if abortions are outlawed...how do you plan to punish it?

Do we charge sixteen year old girls with first degree murder and put them in jail for the rest of their lives? Or just put them on death row? That's about the argument, isn't it? Children are the most innocent of all, so abortion is murder, and ... and then you're executing women because they're scared and don't know how to bring a child into their lives.

Put them in jail? That'd work. Our jails aren't overflowing with people that don't need to be in there. And people always come out of jail wonderfully reformed, don't they?

Fines? Most abortions are from poor women, I'd assume.

Is there ANY good punishment for abortion? Outside of punishing the doctor? If you overturn Roe -v- Wade, you just force women to go back decades to abortion with a hanger, and then ... then what?

Seriously ... is there ANY legitimate punishment you can think of for a women getting an illegal abortion?

I can't. Seems to me it's easy to go "we have to protect all lives!" and argue why abortion's wrong, but ... you can shut down the clinics that perform the abortions, but there's no way to punish women who get abortions. All you do then is put their lives in jeapordy without proper medical help. I guess you'd have to decide if the child's life is more important than the mother's.

kchubb

11/03/04, 11:23 PM

Maybe they will think harder about using the several other forms of protection. There are much more resposible ways to deal with it. How about... gasp... adoption! I was adopted and thank god that my mom didnt have an abortion... an easy out for a single mom working 45 hours a week and living in below modest conditions... thank god she had some senses of resposiblity...

theESCO

11/03/04, 11:24 PM

That didn't answer the question at all...

kchubb

11/03/04, 11:27 PM

I'm not going to feel sorry for them. It's their mistake, not mine. Put them in jail. That would sure scare the hell out of me...

theESCO

11/03/04, 11:30 PM

You really are ignorant...

kchubb

11/03/04, 11:34 PM

Jason Tate

11/03/04, 11:59 PM

Because i disagree with you? Because i think people should be held resposible for their actions? Because abortion is so sickly abused by irresposible teens? No, i'm sorry.

If you give them the chance to a) be responsible of b) go to jail... i'm pretty sure they'll chose the first one. If they don't then they will pay the consiquences like every other criminal. Why don't you like self resposablity? Why isn't adoption a good enough solution for you?
Because I believe, if a women was raped by a man with AIDS, she would not want to bring a child into this world who would die a horrific death and would be another constant reminder of the most brutal and tramatizing event that ever occured in her life.

Or in a case of incest ...

Pretending things are black and white, and everyone wanting to get an abortion is using it as a birth control method ... that's pretty narrow minded, and not even close to the truth. Abortions have been occuring for years, and years, and years (pre us landing here).. regardless, your personal moral code is not something you have the right to push on others who do not share such moral code. You don't have to get an abortion, that's fine and dandy. What someone else does, in this case, does not affect you and it's really not your place, at all, to force a probably religious belief upon the entire population.

Justin_stacy

11/04/04, 12:10 AM

All you pro-life people:

Tell me, if abortions are outlawed...how do you plan to punish it?.

There's a difference between working to make something less barbaric and destructive and wanting to totally outlaw it...very few people are calling for out right elimination....what people are working for is an end to partial birth abortions (an unnecessary act), a more appropriate time frame for discretionary abortions (i.e. about 90+% of them), more money spent on teaching the responsibilities that come with having sex and its consequences and an end to government funding for abortions (here and around the world)....none of this is in anyway calling for an end to abortion, its a pathetic scare tactic of the left that every republican is looking to end abortion.....what most want is to have the issue reworked, placing more of an emphasis on human value rather then speed and convenience….

kchubb

11/04/04, 12:14 AM

Because I believe, if a women was raped by a man with AIDS, she would not want to bring a child into this world who would die a horrific death and would be another constant reminder of the most brutal and tramatizing event that ever occured in her life.

However, this doesn't justify allowing everyone to do it. It wont always be fair. I would guess this situation come up much less than others.

Pretending things are black and white, and everyone wanting to get an abortion is using it as a birth control method ...

It's black and white, with a few gray spots... like pretty much everything controversial. Nothing is cut and dry and i never said it was...

Abortions have been occuring for years, and years, and years (pre us landing here)..

So have murders... so has drug use... so was slavery... whats your point? We know much more now. We have much different techknowledgy now... even less of need to get one now...

your personal moral code is not something you have the right to push on others who do not share such moral code.

People who don't have "murder is wrong" as a moral are criminals...

What someone else does, in this case, does not affect you and it's really not your place, at all, to force a probably religious belief upon the entire population.

There are murders every day that don't affect me but that doesn't mean it's right... and i'm not religious by any means...

Jason Tate

11/04/04, 12:19 AM

However, this doesn't justify allowing everyone to do it. It wont always be fair. I would guess this situation come up much less than others.

It's black and white, with a few gray spots... like pretty much everything controversial. Nothing is cut and dry and i never said it was...

So have murders... so has drug use... so was slavery... whats your point? We know much more now. We have much different techknowledgy now... even less of need to get one now...

People who don't have "murder is wrong" as a moral are criminals...

There are murders every day that don't affect me but that doesn't mean it's right... and i'm not religious by any means...
1) It justifies not "banning it" which was what I was arguing against.
2) Eh, you just said it's black and white AND grey, it can't be both.
3) Logical fallacy.
4) Logical fallacy.
5) Logical fallacy.

theESCO

11/04/04, 12:23 AM

There's a difference between working to make something less barbaric and destructive and wanting to totally outlaw it...very few people are calling for out right elimination....
Overturning Roe vs. Wade would make it illegal, in all forms. Bush is for overturning roe vs. wade.

what people are working for is an end to partial birth abortions (an unnecessary act)
This has already happened...

more money spent on teaching the responsibilities that come with having sex and its consequences
Bush has said he is for only teaching abstinence in schools...Kids are going to have sex, this is a fact. Teaching them only abstinence will send them out to do it uneducated.

none of this is in anyway calling for an end to abortion
The president, indeed, is.

its a pathetic scare tactic of the left that every republican is looking to end abortion
Never said every republican was, that's why I started my question directing it towards 'pro-life people' and not 'rebublicans.'

=================================== ======================

kchubb, your not ignorant because you dissagree with me, your ignorant based on this comment.

I'm not going to feel sorry for them. It's their mistake, not mine. Put them in jail.

Which I think even the conservates around here will find at least slightly ignorant. Not to mention like I said in my question...

"Do we charge sixteen year old girls with first degree murder and put them in jail for the rest of their lives? Or just put them on death row? That's about the argument, isn't it? Children are the most innocent of all, so abortion is murder, and ... and then you're executing women because they're scared and don't know how to bring a child into their lives.

Put them in jail? That'd work. Our jails aren't overflowing with people that don't need to be in there. And people always come out of jail wonderfully reformed, don't they?"

kchubb

11/04/04, 12:26 AM

1) It justifies not "banning it" which was what I was arguing against.

There will always be exceptions. My point was that you can't allow everyone to do it just because sometimes it could be justified.

2) Eh, you just said it's black and white AND grey, it can't be both.

Why not? They shouldn't be allowed except for certain situations in which it is justifiable... i.e. not as a form of birth control...

Logical fallacy.

k?

Jason Tate

11/04/04, 12:31 AM

There will always be exceptions. My point was that you can't allow everyone to do it just because sometimes it could be justified.

Why not? They shouldn't be allowed except for certain situations in which it is justifiable... i.e. not as a form of birth control...

k?
1) I was just pointing out reasons against banning it, I have many, many others against why there should be pro-choice all around. I was simply answering your original "ban" claim by showing why it should not be banned.

2) Because it's what's known as a "false dilemma" fallacy.

3) K, it means argue without huge logical gaps please.

A question:
- Why should your morals be everyone elses?

You don't like that I support abortion? Oh well, guess we can't all agree on this issue...but, we live in America, right? You and I don't have to be robots...we aren't manufactured and we don't come off an assembly line, thinking the same thoughts. You can say I'm evil. I can say you're an asshat. Freedom.

kchubb

11/04/04, 12:33 AM

kchubb, your not ignorant because you dissagree with me, your ignorant based on this comment.

Which I think even the conservates around here will find at least slightly ignorant. Not to mention like I said in my question...

"Do we charge sixteen year old girls with first degree murder and put them in jail for the rest of their lives? Or just put them on death row? That's about the argument, isn't it? Children are the most innocent of all, so abortion is murder, and ... and then you're executing women because they're scared and don't know how to bring a child into their lives.

Put them in jail? That'd work. Our jails aren't overflowing with people that don't need to be in there. And people always come out of jail wonderfully reformed, don't they?"

I'm sorry but i refuse to feel sorry for irresponable people...

And i never suggest executing women for having an abortion.. not even close. I understand that it would be scary.. but it obviously wasnt scary enough to discourage them before... there are programs that can help them with that... there is adoption... there are so many other ways out of it and to deal with it that aren't even explored because poeple know that... hey, i can just get an abortion, no big deal...

Jason Tate

11/04/04, 12:34 AM

I'm sorry but i refuse to feel sorry for irresponable people...

And i never suggest executing women for having an abortion.. not even close. I understand that it would be scary.. but it obviously wasnt scary enough to discourage them before... there are programs that can help them with that... there is adoption... there are so many other ways out of it and to deal with it that aren't even explored because poeple know that... hey, i can just get an abortion, no big deal...
Why are people, in the United States of America, not allowed to make their own decisions? Why are your morals, and your beliefs so much better for them? You don't get to decide what other's do ...

And people have sex before marriage, you can do everything right, use protection, and still get pregnant. Responsible sex leads to un-planned pregnancy as well.

kchubb

11/04/04, 12:43 AM

Why are people, in the United States of America, not allowed to make their own decisions? Why are your morals, and your beliefs so much better for them? You don't get to decide what other's do ...

I don't feel that i need to argue whether or not murder is moral...

And people have sex before marriage, you can do everything right, use protection, and still get pregnant. Responsible sex leads to un-planned pregnancy as well.

A-DOP-TION....

theESCO

11/04/04, 12:43 AM

By any chance have you ever masterbated Kchubb? Isn't that killing an unborn child? Why is it any different if you bust inside a girl or on a tissue?

Justin_stacy

11/04/04, 12:44 AM

Overturning Roe vs. Wade would make it illegal, in all forms. Bush is for overturning roe vs. wade.

Won’t happen, again that's a scare tactic, you know like what democrats use on African Americans and the Elderly....no court will out right abolish it...what they might do is put limits on it (which would be a good thing) or leave it up to the states to decide whether they will permit it and to what extreme (again, another good thing)....

This has already happened...
Nope, again your facts are fuzzy....it was outlawed...but liberal courts in California, Nebraska, New York and (I think) Wisconsin have over turned the law saying, falsely, that it didn't leave open the procedure for instances when the mothers life was at stake...even though the practice has never been used to save a mother and can't be used in cases of emergency's (because it takes 2 days of prep)...

Bush has said he is for only teaching abstinence in schools...Kids are going to have sex, this is a fact. Teaching them only abstinence will send them out to do it uneducated..

Well there's an easy one there, I don't agree with bush...but I also don't agree with the Clinton years either, where sex ed taught condoms only, with no thought of responsibility.....Remember it was also him who picked a Surgeon General who thought that abortions should to be seen as a form of Birth Control....

There is a middle ground somewhere that must be found…….also don’t make the false conclusion that “abstinence” and “responsibility” are the same thing…

The president, indeed, is..
revert back to original comment..its not hard to follow...

Never said every republican was, that's why I started my question directing it towards 'pro-life people' and not 'rebublicans.'.

oop's my bad.....i ment to type "pro-life" where i put "republican"...but either way the conclusion wasn't that hard to understand....

kchubb

11/04/04, 12:45 AM

Were you sick durring sex ed in 5th, 8th, and 9th grade?

Jason Tate

11/04/04, 12:47 AM

I don't feel that i need to argue whether or not murder is moral...

A-DOP-TION....
It is not your job, or right, to tell someone they must put up a child for adoption if they don't want it. You're linguistics state abortion is murder, not everyone believes that to be true - therefore, it's not murder to all people, therefore it's YOUR morals that make it murder, therefore it;s your morals that you are pushing on others.

You can't force someone to believe something is murder ..

So here, now we have gotten past that little discussion and you can answer my question... why are YOUR morals the best for everyone?

Jason Tate

11/04/04, 12:49 AM

Were you sick durring sex ed in 5th, 8th, and 9th grade?
Were you sick during Government, history, and law?

This is not discussing the issues, STILL ....

theESCO

11/04/04, 12:50 AM

Were you sick durring sex ed in 5th, 8th, and 9th grade?

Huh?

Won’t happen, again that's a scare tactic, you know like what democrats use on African Americans and the Elderly....no court will out right abolish it
I really don't see that as fact...If you have the right judges in the supreme court, logic would state...it really could happen.

Nope, again your facts are fuzzy
Really don't see that as my facts being fuzzy. The fact remains that in the large majoriyt of states, it is outlawed.

Jason Tate

11/04/04, 12:51 AM

that's a scare tactic, you know like what democrats use on African Americans and the Elderly....
Heh, scare tactics .. like the wolves ad? Come on ... both sides do it, don't make it seem like only one side does.

I am just curious, why is this an issue? Honestly, nothing will be solved by banning abortions, or voting on it, or putting any restrictions on it ... all that it will do is make a few christians sleep better at night pretending that abortions don't happen in their state any more. In 30 years, this won't even be a memory of an issue.

Justin_stacy

11/04/04, 01:07 AM

Heh, scare tactics .. like the wolves ad? Come on ... both sides do it, don't make it seem like only one side does..
yes both do it...but only one side has it ingrained in their "base" building....

But the point still stands what he is saying is nothing more then a repeat of a scare tactic....so my original labeling was fair...

I am just curious, why is this an issue? Honestly, nothing will be solved by banning abortions, or voting on it, or putting any restrictions on it ... all that it will do is make a few christians sleep better at night pretending that abortions don't happen in their state any more. In 30 years, this won't even be a memory of an issue.

hopefully that perdiction is right.....

Jason Tate

11/04/04, 01:11 AM

yes both do it...but only one side has it ingrained in their "base" building....

But the point still stands what he is saying is nothing more then a repeat of a scare tactic....so my original labeling was fair...

hopefully that perdiction is right.....
"Ingrained" like .. as their campaign commercial? Doesn't get much more of a base then that does it?

"Voting for Kerry will make the country less safe" <--- That's a scare tactic (and it was said by Cheny)

And when I say it won't be a memory of an issue, it's because it will be a regular medical procedure.

Justin_stacy

11/04/04, 01:15 AM

I really don't see that as fact...If you have the right judges in the supreme court, logic would state...it really could happen..

You’d have to first get that judge on the court, which would be next to impossible....becasue its not just Republicans confirming....also Congressmen have to be reelected, and most care more about their own job then placing an extremist on the court...…playing the extreme partisan game, in most places, is political suicide, Dashal’s loss proves that….

second an extremist, is an extremist on every issue and no president, particularly a moderate one like Bush, is going to want to put someone on the court that they will be unable to trust...

But your right "logically" anythings possible....but is it likely, that should be the question......and remember it is not just Republicans who could put an extremist on the court, if Kerry had won, he could have done the same thing....

Really don't see that as my facts being fuzzy. The fact remains that in the large majoriyt of states, it is outlawed.
Those are federal courts...so the whole law, nation wide, comes under dispute and could be thrown out....

Justin_stacy

11/04/04, 01:23 AM

"Ingrained" like .. as their campaign commercial? Doesn't get much more of a base then that does it?

"Voting for Kerry will make the country less safe" <--- That's a scare tactic (and it was said by Cheny)

And when I say it won't be a memory of an issue, it's because it will be a regular medical procedure.

I agreed with the comment, not your opinion for coming to it.....I think that’s obvious….

Both of those are security based, and new to this election....Now should we go over where Dems, have for years, used propaganda to scare minorities, the elderly, womyn, etc.....or could you possible just concede the fact that, yes both sides use it, but one uses it more predominately then the other...?