The end of the universe

[Tanooki Suit]

There have been several prevailing theories over how the universe will end over the years, and some of the most notable in the last century the Big Crunch, the Big Rip, and the Deep Freeze (for lack of a better name).

The basic tenet of the Big Crunch is that the universe is cyclic, and because of gravity, all the mass will eventually stop moving outwards, and start accelerating inwards until it is nearly infinitly massive and infinitly small, and create another Big Bang. However this has been largely abandoned, for a few reasons. Firstly, it has been found that the mass in the universe has actually started ACCELERATING outwards away from each other even faster than before. Also, it has been found (well, not FOUND really) that there just isn't enough mass in the universe to counteract the outward accelerating force and pull it in.

The Big Rip I am not very familiar with, but I will try. I'm pretty sure the Big Rip postulates that the force causing the mass to accelerate outwards will increase until it affects even the intramolecular forces, basically ripping everything apart into a vacuum of energy. Sound appealing? Didn't think so.

The Deep Freeze was the most widely held theory until the the Big Rip came into play. Basically the Deep Freeze asserts that the all mass will continue to accelerate outwards, and that all stars will eventually spend all their fuel, and that everything will experience amazingly cold temperatures and freeze over.

Now, there are more theories for how the universe will end (including a "steady state" theory), but most have been debunked by now and do not have the most followers. Any thoughts?

[_astheruinfalls]

I think dinosaurs will come back to life and eat us all.

[Lets Deja Vu]

I dont really care how it ends, ill be dead.

[shrguy]

I dont really care how it ends, ill be dead.
as i'm sure many people think.

[pjtunes91]

There have been several prevailing theories over how the universe will end over the years, and some of the most notable in the last century the Big Crunch, the Big Rip, and the Deep Freeze (for lack of a better name).

The basic tenet of the Big Crunch is that the universe is cyclic, and because of gravity, all the mass will eventually stop moving outwards, and start accelerating inwards until it is nearly infinitly massive and infinitly small, and create another Big Bang. However this has been largely abandoned, for a few reasons. Firstly, it has been found that the mass in the universe has actually started ACCELERATING outwards away from each other even faster than before. Also, it has been found (well, not FOUND really) that there just isn't enough mass in the universe to counteract the outward accelerating force and pull it in.

The Big Rip I am not very familiar with, but I will try. I'm pretty sure the Big Rip postulates that the force causing the mass to accelerate outwards will increase until it affects even the intramolecular forces, basically ripping everything apart into a vacuum of energy. Sound appealing? Didn't think so.

The Deep Freeze was the most widely held theory until the the Big Rip came into play. Basically the Deep Freeze asserts that the all mass will continue to accelerate outwards, and that all stars will eventually spend all their fuel, and that everything will experience amazingly cold temperatures and freeze over.

Now, there are more theories for how the universe will end (including a "steady state" theory), but most have been debunked by now and do not have the most followers. Any thoughts?
Very interesting theories. The Big Rip sounds like it would make for an interesting movie.

[Mercy Medical]

I assume you expected intellectual answers from the rest of the forum...I think you're expecting a bit too much. :)

[Tanooki Suit]

I assume you expected intellectual answers from the rest of the forum...I think you're expecting a bit too much. :)
Well this is why I wanted a Science forum... oh well.

[venus/bacchus]

I believe in the rapture hopefully a pretribulation rapture, but a rapture none the less. Lets hear it for the horsemen.
If there ever is a rapture (and John wasn't just on a LOT of drugs), then I don't see a chance in pretribulation rapture. You may be saved in the end, but not before the necessary suffering.

That's not the point of this thread though...anyway:

The Big Crunch isn't completely voided. There is evidence to believe dark energy won't always continue to accelerate the galaxies, but rather reverse its force and pull them back to their crushing demise. At this point we really know almost nothing, it's only been in the past 10 or so years that we even had the idea that dark energy/matter actually exists (and they were created as a sort of "fudge" factor to account that Newton's laws didn't quite apply in space). Only 4% of the mass of the universe is matter as we know it, and we're far from ever figuring out how that functions and interacts.

The Deep Freeze is a rather intriguing proposition as it has the most physical support, but tends to defy all conventional logic. See previous paragraph for reasons why.

The Big Rip is also very interested, but from what I've read (although little), it seems to have almost no scientific or experimental backing. It basically relies upon the assumption that it's a possibility that the galaxies will increase their acceleration, and some unknown force lies on the boundaries of the universe and is pulling all matter towards it. At the moment we have no reason to speculate that the universe is even finite. It's rather juicy, but has no real fruit.

[Tanooki Suit]

If there ever is a rapture (and John wasn't just on a LOT of drugs), then I don't see a chance in pretribulation rapture. You may be saved in the end, but not before the necessary suffering.

That's not the point of this thread though...anyway:

The Big Crunch isn't completely voided. There is evidence to believe dark energy won't always continue to accelerate the galaxies, but rather reverse its force and pull them back to their crushing demise. At this point we really know almost nothing, it's only been in the past 10 or so years that we even had the idea that dark energy/matter actually exists (and they were created as a sort of "fudge" factor to account that Newton's laws didn't quite apply in space). Only 4% of the mass of the universe is matter as we know it, and we're far from ever figuring out how that functions and interacts.

The Deep Freeze is a rather intriguing proposition as it has the most physical support, but tends to defy all conventional logic. See previous paragraph for reasons why.

The Big Rip is also very interested, but from what I've read (although little), it seems to have almost no scientific or experimental backing. It basically relies upon the assumption that it's a possibility that the galaxies will increase their acceleration, and some unknown force lies on the boundaries of the universe and is pulling all matter towards it. At the moment we have no reason to speculate that the universe is even finite. It's rather juicy, but has no real fruit.
Yeah, I personally like to view the universe as infinite.

[_astheruinfalls]

I still go with the Dinos.

If a rapture were to happen, I'd fucking piss my pants. A lot.

[venus/bacchus]

I still go with the Dinos.

If a rapture were to happen, I'd fucking piss my pants. A lot.
dinosaurs are already back and completely controlling our lives and actions

oil anyone?

[venus/bacchus]

If it isn't a religious event I believe the earth will end because of man, and the A-bomb.

"Warning: This car will be unmanned in event of rapture" ( i love those bumper stickers)
This really isn't about life on earth, it's more about all energy contained in the universe

[_astheruinfalls]

Haha.

I bet the US will find a way to blow up all the universes.

GG

[Tanooki Suit]

If it isn't a religious event I believe the earth will end because of man, and the A-bomb.

"Warning: This car will be unmanned in event of rapture" ( i love those bumper stickers)
I hate those stickers. I just want to knock on their driver's side window when they're at a stop, and ask them why they're so sure they'd go to heaven. And then, before they answer, shoot them in the face.

[MiNiSkIrTzRaWk]

itll begin all over again. dinosaurs. big bang. adam/eve.

[venus/bacchus]

itll begin all over again. dinosaurs. big bang. adam/eve.
We were actually talking about how it'll end, not what will happen after it ends.

[Tanooki Suit]

We were actually talking about how it'll end, not what will happen after it ends.
Also, did you know that Physicists generally don't concern themselves with what there was before the Big Bang? They don't even want to try because they think that the rules governing our universe weren't actually set in stone back that far (i.e. energy could be created/destroyed). But I've read somewhere that they are pretty sure how it's gone about a few seconds Planck time after the Big Bang, which is incredibly minute.

[venus/bacchus]

Also, did you know that Physicists generally don't concern themselves with what there was before the Big Bang? They don't even want to try because they think that the rules governing our universe weren't actually set in stone back that far (i.e. energy could be created/destroyed). But I've read somewhere that they are pretty sure how it's gone about a few seconds Planck time after the Big Bang, which is incredibly minute.
Yeah, there's no real reason to concern yourself with something that doesn't affect our lives in any way. I remember reading something talking about Planck time, and how movement had no set rules until about a few nanoseconds after the Big Bang, anything before that was virtually chaos, no order at all. That's something incredible to think about, that you can have all the energy in the universe in a one meter cube, and there are no rules governing it for a few nanoseconds.

[Tanooki Suit]

Yeah, there's no real reason to concern yourself with something that doesn't affect our lives in any way. I remember reading something talking about Planck time, and how movement had no set rules until about a few nanoseconds after the Big Bang, anything before that was virtually chaos, no order at all. That's something incredible to think about, that you can have all the energy in the universe in a one meter cube, and there are no rules governing it for a few nanoseconds.
I think was is especially amazing to try to visualize how hot that cube (or whatever shape it was) was... it was way beyond our level of comprehension of temperature. It's like trying to visualize infinity, only slightly less harder.

[venus/bacchus]

I think was is especially amazing to try to visualize how hot that cube (or whatever shape it was) was... it was way beyond our level of comprehension of temperature. It's like trying to visualize infinity, only slightly less harder.
We don't even have a perception of pure energy, let alone its physical characteristics. It's sort of a quandry, because under no circumstances would we be able to experiementally determine the amount of heat or velocity of these particles. It's all based on theory, and that's all it ever will be.

[Bishop]

There have been several prevailing theories over how the universe will end over the years, and some of the most notable in the last century the Big Crunch, the Big Rip, and the Deep Freeze (for lack of a better name).

The basic tenet of the Big Crunch is that the universe is cyclic, and because of gravity, all the mass will eventually stop moving outwards, and start accelerating inwards until it is nearly infinitly massive and infinitly small, and create another Big Bang. However this has been largely abandoned, for a few reasons. Firstly, it has been found that the mass in the universe has actually started ACCELERATING outwards away from each other even faster than before. Also, it has been found (well, not FOUND really) that there just isn't enough mass in the universe to counteract the outward accelerating force and pull it in.

Well I agree with the acceleration part, but I'm not sure about the mass part, since black holes all lead down to a single point and suck in everything else and compounds it into one specific point or sphere (We still don't know that yet) Now there are some theories saying that it's like the big bang or what could happen... or something like that.


The Deep Freeze was the most widely held theory until the the Big Rip came into play. Basically the Deep Freeze asserts that the all mass will continue to accelerate outwards, and that all stars will eventually spend all their fuel, and that everything will experience amazingly cold temperatures and freeze over.


Well it is highly unlikely that it will happen like that. Since our sun itself gives off solar flares expelling different matter and such and all this matter can go off and form huge nebulas, this can also help during a supernova. And so what happens is that these dark clouds will usually come together and there is a tremendous amount of heat, this can come to several different outcomes including binary star systems, single star systems and the like. So I sincerely disagree with that theory.

The second one does present an interesting idea, but you have to wonder whether all the more complex elements themselves will go back on their chemical reactions and turn into simpler elements thus allowing it to expand even more so only when all the compounds break down to their simplest form and then stretched to that point, then that's when it'll happen.

[Tanooki Suit]

We don't even have a perception of pure energy, let alone its physical characteristics. It's sort of a quandry, because under no circumstances would we be able to experiementally determine the amount of heat or velocity of these particles. It's all based on theory, and that's all it ever will be.
Well since we're talking pure energy here, I'm thinking that our classicist view of particles and waves won't fit, we'd need something more along the lines of how light is considered. Hell, probably even different than that, maybe some kind of particle/wave/cloud type deal. Then, once it cooled to actually form particles of matter don't forget that there was a lot more antimatter in the beginning moments of the universe, so the matter and antimatter were constantly annhilating each other and whatnot, then whatever caused the asymmetry caused it, then almost all the antimatter was annihilated.

[venus/bacchus]

Well it is highly unlikely that it will happen like that. Since our sun itself gives off solar flares expelling different matter and such and all this matter can go off and form huge nebulas, this can also help during a supernova. And so what happens is that these dark clouds will usually come together and there is a tremendous amount of heat, this can come to several different outcomes including binary star systems, single star systems and the like. So I sincerely disagree with that theory.
The only mathematical or statistical result of infinite expansion is complete randomness. The odds of an oft-flung solar flare becoming a new nebula is virtually impossible once the rate of expansion gets to a certain point. If the universe were finite however, that would be a very good chance.

[Tanooki Suit]

Well it is highly unlikely that it will happen like that. Since our sun itself gives off solar flares expelling different matter and such and all this matter can go off and form huge nebulas, this can also help during a supernova. And so what happens is that these dark clouds will usually come together and there is a tremendous amount of heat, this can come to several different outcomes including binary star systems, single star systems and the like. So I sincerely disagree with that theory.
Well, the point of the Deep Freeze is that ALL MATTER is accelerating outwards from each other. So, while star formation occurs normally, eventually, matter will be too far apart to form new stars from any existing matter, and thus the temperature is like an exponential function, as in, when it starts to get colder it just keeps getting colder. This is because stars will die out without new stars to take their place (in the universe, not in the same place), and hence the Deep Freeze.

[venus/bacchus]

Well since we're talking pure energy here, I'm thinking that our classicist view of particles and waves won't fit, we'd need something more along the lines of how light is considered. Hell, probably even different than that, maybe some kind of particle/wave/cloud type deal. Then, once it cooled to actually form particles of matter don't forget that there was a lot more antimatter in the beginning moments of the universe, so the matter and antimatter were constantly annhilating each other and whatnot, then whatever caused the asymmetry caused it, then almost all the antimatter was annihilated.
Waves, particles, and clouds are all classical physics, and all relate to actual matter. There is virutally no way of explaining it in modern terms to do justice to it.

I think you're wrong on the asymmetry deal. If there was an imbalance leaning towards the side of antimatter, the odds of matter being the annihilee (is that a word) are much greater. Asymmetry leaned in the direction of matter.

[Tanooki Suit]

Waves, particles, and clouds are all classical physics, and all relate to actual matter. There is virutally no way of explaining it in modern terms to do justice to it.

I think you're wrong on the asymmetry deal. If there was an imbalance leaning towards the side of antimatter, the odds of matter being the annihilee (is that a word) are much greater. Asymmetry leaned in the direction of matter.
Well yeah, I know there is no way with human language to describe it... I'm just saying it would obviously be a hybrid of several concepts that we do have a handle on, though it wouldn't be exactly the same. I'm thinking it'd be like ambient light but with no discernible source. Just... there.

As for the asymmetry deal, you interpreted my comment wrong. I am completely in agreement with you that there was an inbalance in the direction of matter.

[Bishop]

The only mathematical or statistical result of infinite expansion is complete randomness. The odds of an oft-flung solar flare becoming a new nebula is virtually impossible once the rate of expansion gets to a certain point. If the universe were finite however, that would be a very good chance.

Well I don't think an actual solar flare itself can give off enough matter to make up a nebula, but over a star's life time they do expel a lot of matter albeit radically, but I don't think a nebula itself is formed until a supernova has occursed. And thus the process starts over. I'll ask more about it in my astronomy class tomorrow.

[Bishop]

Well, the point of the Deep Freeze is that ALL MATTER is accelerating outwards from each other. So, while star formation occurs normally, eventually, matter will be too far apart to form new stars from any existing matter, and thus the temperature is like an exponential function, as in, when it starts to get colder it just keeps getting colder. This is because stars will die out without new stars to take their place (in the universe, not in the same place), and hence the Deep Freeze.

Are we dealing with absolute zero or just to a certain point? If it were to reach absolute zero then I'd agree. But if you have energy and and a large mass that is going to have a gravitational force then you still have the ingredients for stars, planets and such and a very real possibility for them to form, no matter how far apart they are, even though the number of them will probably be much smaller and will probably take longer to form.

[venus/bacchus]

Well I don't think an actual solar flare itself can give off enough matter to make up a nebula, but over a star's life time they do expel a lot of matter albeit radically, but I don't think a nebula itself is formed until a supernova has occursed. And thus the process starts over. I'll ask more about it in my astronomy class tomorrow.
Admittedly, I don't know too much about our current universe. I just know what I've read about the end of it. So if you could give more info, that'd be really cool.

[Tanooki Suit]

Are we dealing with absolute zero or just to a certain point? If it were to reach absolute zero then I'd agree. But if you have energy and and a large mass that is going to have a gravitational force then you still have the ingredients for stars, planets and such and a very real possibility for them to form, no matter how far apart they are, even though the number of them will probably be much smaller and will probably take longer to form.
Yes, eventually the universe would reach the point of absolute zero, if it follows the the behavior that it is exhibiting now. Yes, there will be a point where very few stars can still form, but you have to visualize that all the mass is hurtling away from each other, and eventually it would just be impossible for new stars to form, and the universe will reach absolute zero.

[richter915]

I wish I coulda kept up with all this.

[osunfg]

just depends on the density of the universe and unknown forces such as dark energy etc etc.

[richter915]

just depends on the density of the universe and unknown forces such as dark energy etc etc.
can you explain what we know about dark energy? like, how it originated and such. thx

[osunfg]

can you explain what we know about dark energy? like, how it originated and such. thx
i wish i could, but i dont know much about it. all i know is its kind of like an inverse force of gravity which is driving the expansion of the universe. its supposed to account for i think 2/3's of the energy in the universe. i think thats amazing since we are so 'in the dark' about the stuff, yet its what most of this place is working with.