politics

[PunkDrums182]

Politics suck, too much lying and bullshit.

[turtlefootrx]

not to mention ignorant citizens who refuse to believe that it takes place. put em together and youve got a combo for disaster.

[PunkDrums182]

not to mention bands brain washing kids.

[ohlookitspaul]

nothing is worse than political apathy.

[Tanooki Suit]

nothing is worse than political activism.
There you go, I corrected that for you.

[turtlefootrx]

its one thing if you support your party for what it stands for, but ive talked to more 'republicans' than 'democrats' that supported Bush for ignorant reasons. they dont completely understand why they are supporting him. every single one of them support him because he was the president at the time that 9/11 happened, so he automaticly knows 'whats best' for our country. that is political apathy/activism at its worst.

[takingback98]

i agree with everything stated on this page and i agree with people that are against bush (becuase i am) for what hes done and not because my favorite band told me to be

[venus/bacchus]

its one thing if you support your party for what it stands for, but ive talked to more 'republicans' than 'democrats' that supported Bush for ignorant reasons. they dont completely understand why they are supporting him. every single one of them support him because he was the president at the time that 9/11 happened, so he automaticly knows 'whats best' for our country. that is political apathy/activism at its worst.
And no one supported Kerry because
A) Bush is going to reinstate the draft
B) Bush lied to all of us
C) Bush hates gays
D) Bush is only out to get oil
E) Bush is mentally handicapped
F) Bush is just making up for what his father couldn't do

and the list goes on...ignorance isn't only one sided

[PunkDrums182]

nothing is worse than political apathy.
Yea its stupid, but there are worse things i could think of.

[turtlefootrx]

And no one supported Kerry because
A) Bush is going to reinstate the draft
B) Bush lied to all of us
C) Bush hates gays
D) Bush is only out to get oil
E) Bush is mentally handicapped
F) Bush is just making up for what his father couldn't do

and the list goes on...ignorance isn't only one sided

i believe all of those things, but i support liberal views. thats why i voted democrat. not just because bush is an idiot. does that make me ignorant?

[venus/bacchus]

i believe all of those things, but i support liberal views. thats why i voted democrat. not just because bush is an idiot. does that make me ignorant?
to be honest....yes

none of those are true

[turtlefootrx]

to be honest....yes

none of those are true

ok so maybe hes not mentally handicapped. ill give you that one. and the draft thing.

but hmm...garunteed halliburton contracts? both bush's went to iraq? reasons for going to iraq were false? yeah i guess none of those are true.

[BrandNew20]

And no one supported Kerry because
A) Bush is going to reinstate the draft
B) Bush lied to all of us
C) Bush hates gays
D) Bush is only out to get oil
E) Bush is mentally handicapped
F) Bush is just making up for what his father couldn't do

and the list goes on...ignorance isn't only one sided

I agree, there is definatly ignorance on both sides. The scary thing is, I would be willing to bet that there is a large enough percentage of the American public that is ignorant on the issues that they are the ones who decide the elections on National, State, and especially local issues.

[Brit_Ben]

not to mention bands brain washing kids.

better than the state brainwashing them!

[Justin_stacy]

its one thing if you support your party for what it stands for, but ive talked to more 'republicans' than 'democrats' that supported Bush for ignorant reasons. they dont completely understand why they are supporting him. every single one of them support him because he was the president at the time that 9/11 happened, so he automaticly knows 'whats best' for our country. that is political apathy/activism at its worst.

You want to talk about people not understanding what their voting for, you should really look to some of the new liberal recruits...I mean, hell, I can't tell you how many people I’ve talked to that say F/911 was the bedrock of their current political opinion(s)....do you understand how sad that is (?), taking a fictional movie and basing your whole political opinion on it. That's like someone saying that The day after tomorrow, was their most influential guide on global warming, or that Mein Kempf, was someone's most influential teacher of Jewish heritage......

Yes it is sad that these kinds of people are out there on both side of the political spectrum....but what is even "sadder" is that one side is out there pushing hard for them to go to the polls...

[Justin_stacy]

I agree, there is definatly ignorance on both sides. The scary thing is, I would be willing to bet that there is a large enough percentage of the American public that is ignorant on the issues that they are the ones who decide the elections on National, State, and especially local issues.

What do you base that on? Normally, at least until this recent election, those that voted tended to be the ones most informed and those that cared most about the issues.....It was those that didn’t care or understand the issues, that tended to not vote.....It has always been that way, unfortunately I think that that will no longer be the norm.....

Also I hope you don't fall into that category that finds everyone different from them as being "ignorant," its one thing to joke, but to truly take that belief to heart, with out any basis, shows something about your own intelligence and inability to defend your own beliefs...

[venus/bacchus]

ok so maybe hes not mentally handicapped. ill give you that one. and the draft thing.

but hmm...garunteed halliburton contracts? both bush's went to iraq? reasons for going to iraq were false? yeah i guess none of those are true.
the things you listed and the things I listed are very different things

[Love As Arson]

Ignorance and indifference in relation to politics is what allows people like Bush and Kerry to get into power.

[BrandNew20]

What do you base that on? Normally, at least until this recent election, those that voted tended to be the ones most informed and those that cared most about the issues.....It was those that didn’t care or understand the issues, that tended to not vote.....It has always been that way, unfortunately I think that that will no longer be the norm.....

Also I hope you don't fall into that category that finds everyone different from them as being "ignorant," its one thing to joke, but to truly take that belief to heart, with out any basis, shows something about your own intelligence and inability to defend your own beliefs...

Yes, until this recent election. This election we had people voting for Kerry because they saw F911 and we had people voting for Bush because they thought Saddam was directly involved with 9/11. Thats ignorance on both sides. Large amounts of people thought so. I had seen polls where 20% of the population thought Saddam was directly involved, days before the election. F911 did very well. Large amounts of people went to the polls this year uninformed, and that probably decided the election.

And I said that there is ignorance on both sides...how could that possibly mean that I see everyone different from me as being ignorant? I have said many times that I voted for Kerry, and that there were people who voted for Kerry for the wrong reasons. Just like there were people who voted for Bush for the wrong reasons. I honestly don't think that my opinion is better than anyone elses.

[Justin_stacy]

Yes, until this recent election. This election we had people voting for Kerry because they saw F911 and we had people voting for Bush because they thought Saddam was directly involved with 9/11. Thats ignorance on both sides. Large amounts of people thought so. I had seen polls where 20% of the population thought Saddam was directly involved, days before the election. F911 did very well. Large amounts of people went to the polls this year uninformed, and that probably decided the election. .

Are you sure the poll wasn't about Saddum being directly involved in terrorism and not just 9/11.....It’d be interesting to see that poll...but either way, I think you're right "ignorance," or lack of knowledge, did play a big part, but not a decisive one, in this election.....But I still think those that bought into moore lies, and the "rock the vote" lies and the Punk Voters lies....played a bigger part then those that bought into a direct correlation between saddum and 9/11, particularly with the youth vote....but of course that is just my take on things....


And I said that there is ignorance on both sides...how could that possibly mean that I see everyone different from me as being ignorant? I have said many times that I voted for Kerry, and that there were people who voted for Kerry for the wrong reasons. Just like there were people who voted for Bush for the wrong reasons. I honestly don't think that my opinion is better than anyone elses.

Yes you said that, but following it you made this little comment which I took as related to the "current" presidential election, and that your meaning was that the ignorant decided the outcome of the election...

I would be willing to bet that there is a large enough percentage of the American public that is ignorant on the issues that they are the ones who decide the elections on National, State, and especially local issues.

[turtlefootrx]

the things you listed and the things I listed are very different things

since i havent been here in a while i just now read this. so...

we basicly proved each others points that ignorance is in fact on both sides.

You want to talk about people not understanding what their voting for, you should really look to some of the new liberal recruits...I mean, hell, I can't tell you how many people I’ve talked to that say F/911 was the bedrock of their current political opinion(s)....do you understand how sad that is (?), taking a fictional movie and basing your whole political opinion on it. That's like someone saying that The day after tomorrow, was their most influential guide on global warming, or that Mein Kempf, was someone's most influential teacher of Jewish heritage......

Yes it is sad that these kinds of people are out there on both side of the political spectrum....but what is even "sadder" is that one side is out there pushing hard for them to go to the polls...

how is f/911 fictional? more importanty, how can you even begin to compare it to mein kompf?

[Justin_stacy]

how is f/911 fictional? more importanty, how can you even begin to compare it to mein kompf?

Becasue they are both fictional propaganda...used to control the weak and inflame the ignorant...



And where do you want me start? Take the opening sequence, its fake. All major American paper (the majority of which are [very] liberal) found that in all, valid, recounts scenarios Bush would have won....Moore also faked the News Paper headline in his "movie." Which is in actuality a re-write of a letter to the editor comment (not a news article) from a Bloomington, Illinois, newspaper...

This is just one of many lies that Moore commits within this film….which makes it a fictional work, and not a documentary…

[turtlefootrx]

Becasue they are both fictional propaganda...used to control the weak and inflame the ignorant...



And where do you want me start? Take the opening sequence, its fake. All major American paper (the majority of which are [very] liberal) found that in all, valid, recounts scenarios Bush would have won....Moore also faked the News Paper headline in his "movie." Which is in actuality a re-write of a letter to the editor comment (not a news article) from a Bloomington, Illinois, newspaper...

This is just one of many lies that Moore commits within this film….which makes it a fictional work, and not a documentary…

prove it...

[Justin_stacy]

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5575561

[turtlefootrx]

well, cant argue with that. but does that make the whole movie fake?

[selftitled85]

to relate mein kampf to f 9/11 is pretty bad. mein kampf was a layout of hitlers plan and gave his reasons why he should lead and who is to blame. he warps most of the truth to prove his point.

moore warped some of the truth nowhere near to the effect of hitler. and also a lot of the stuff in moores movies are true. in fact there is truth to almost all of his claims. you cant really make up what happened overseas and the saudi arabian stuff is all true.

[Justin_stacy]

well, cant argue with that. but does that make the whole movie fake?
its just one of many.....

[Justin_stacy]

to relate mein kampf to f 9/11 is pretty bad. mein kampf was a layout of hitlers plan and gave his reasons why he should lead and who is to blame. he warps most of the truth to prove his point..

Who's that sound like?

and it was an analogy....not a direct comparison....

a·nal·o·gy (-nl-j) KEY

NOUN:
pl. a·nal·o·gies

Similarity in some respects between things that are otherwise dissimilar.
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/analogy

in fact there is truth to almost all of his claims. you cant really make up what happened overseas and the saudi arabian stuff is all true.

what is "true" is taken out of cotext or so dated that it no longers has validity....and even these things don't make up for the numerous lies...

[turtlefootrx]

but you still havent specified if the whole movie was fake or not. let alone proving it.

[Justin_stacy]

but you still havent specified if the whole movie was fake or not. let alone proving it.

So me proving that he forged a newspaper article on purpose, to put a point of view across that is absolutely false....doesn't destroy your "faith" in him? Well if that's the case then there's nothing I can say........And as for more specific lies all you have to do is look around on the internet for more examples....there are numerous sites (and movies) that talk about Moore’s falsehoods….

[UndefinedBoy]

So me proving that he forged a newspaper article on purpose, to put a point of view across that is absolutely false....doesn't destroy your "faith" in him? Well if that's the case then there's nothing I can say........And as for more specific lies all you have to do is look around on the internet for more examples....there are numerous sites (and movies) that talk about Moore’s falsehoods….

Well first of all its not like he made up the article, he only made it look like the paper emphasized it...they're obviously not too pissed since they're only asking for $1 in damages.

Oh and I'm sure all those internet articles and movies are free of bias and falsehoods of their own? Give me a break.

[Justin_stacy]

Well first of all its not like he made up the article, he only made it look like the paper emphasized it...they're obviously not too pissed since they're only asking for $1 in damages..

So changing its location, size/font/wording, context and date....is ok, and doesn't really amount to fraud? Just give it up, the left's hero is a charlatan, his beliefs (and those of his supporters) are so absurd that he has to make things up just to try and "prove" them, because facts don't...

and as for the suit, it was symbolic and not about money......

Illinois Paper Hits Michael Moore for Copyright Infringement

By E&P Staff

Published: July 31, 2004

NEW YORK The Pantagraph newspaper in Bloomington, Ill., has sent a letter to Michael Moore, drafted by its lawyer, citing him for copyright infringement, admonishing him for his "unauthorized ... misleading" use of the paper in his film "Fahrenheit 9/11," and asking for an apology.

It is also seeking compensatory damages of exactly one dollar.

"While we are highly flattered to be included in the movie," said the newspaper's President and Publisher Henry Bird, "we are a bit disturbed that our pages were misrepresented."

Early in the movie, according to the paper, a large headline appears in the film, purporting to be from a Dec. 19, 2001, edition of the paper, and reading "Latest Florida recount shows Gore won election." The paper contends that the headline actually appeared on Dec. 5, 2001, in much smaller type, and above a letter to the editor, hardly a factual news story or editorial.

The letter to Moore from the paper calls this a "misrepresentation of facts." The newspaper said it had been unsuccessful in attempts to reach Moore through his film company, Lion's Gate, by phone and e-mail.

"In an instance that The Pantagraph prints material in which there is a mistake, it is corrected," the letter to Moore reads. "It is our hope that you would adhere to the same high ethical standard."

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id= 1000590756

Oh and I'm sure all those internet articles and movies are free of bias and falsehoods of their own? Give me a break.

that is why you for factual documentation….there are people out there that don’t need to “make things” up to get their point across…

[turtlefootrx]

youre missing the point. you fail to prove anything else in the movie is a lie besides one damn newspaper headline.

[UndefinedBoy]

So changing its location, size/font/wording, context and date....is ok, and doesn't really amount to fraud? Just give it up, the left's hero is a charlatan, his beliefs (and those of his supporters) are so absurd that he has to make things up just to try and "prove" them, because facts don't...

and as for the suit, it was symbolic and not about money......

Illinois Paper Hits Michael Moore for Copyright Infringement

By E&P Staff

Published: July 31, 2004

NEW YORK The Pantagraph newspaper in Bloomington, Ill., has sent a letter to Michael Moore, drafted by its lawyer, citing him for copyright infringement, admonishing him for his "unauthorized ... misleading" use of the paper in his film "Fahrenheit 9/11," and asking for an apology.

It is also seeking compensatory damages of exactly one dollar.

"While we are highly flattered to be included in the movie," said the newspaper's President and Publisher Henry Bird, "we are a bit disturbed that our pages were misrepresented."

Early in the movie, according to the paper, a large headline appears in the film, purporting to be from a Dec. 19, 2001, edition of the paper, and reading "Latest Florida recount shows Gore won election." The paper contends that the headline actually appeared on Dec. 5, 2001, in much smaller type, and above a letter to the editor, hardly a factual news story or editorial.

The letter to Moore from the paper calls this a "misrepresentation of facts." The newspaper said it had been unsuccessful in attempts to reach Moore through his film company, Lion's Gate, by phone and e-mail.

"In an instance that The Pantagraph prints material in which there is a mistake, it is corrected," the letter to Moore reads. "It is our hope that you would adhere to the same high ethical standard."

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id= 1000590756

Alright you're flipping out about something the newspaper doesn't seem to find so insulting. Granted they think it should be fixed, but they even said they were flattered to be in the movie. And no, I don't think changing the font of the quote makes it fraud. If you're going to attack his movie for its "lies," please pick a better lie.

[Justin_stacy]

Alright you're flipping out about something the newspaper doesn't seem to find so insulting..

They did find it unethical...
"In an instance that The Pantagraph prints material in which there is a mistake, it is corrected," the letter to Moore reads. "It is our hope that you would adhere to the same high ethical standard."

and I’m not "flipping out," I’m defending the claim I made, I was asked to point out something that was fictional, and I did....and from there on its been nothing but responses...

If you're going to attack his movie for its "lies," please pick a better lie.

So now there levels to a lie, some lies are ok, but other's aren't?

But does it really matter? You would blindly believe the movie no matter what I said or showed....you hate bush, moore feeds that hate, so your happy....the example I gave perfectly showed what Moore does...what good would it do to continue this?

[Justin_stacy]

youre missing the point. you fail to prove anything else in the movie is a lie besides one damn newspaper headline.

One damn newspaper headline eh'?...You do understand that moore based the whole opening of the movie, on what that one damn headline said...


You know you could also try to prove me wrong, instead of putting it all on me…..of course that might be too much work!


http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20040702.html
here is a short one, but it is one that in no way can be blown off by the “bias” label…

About Spinsanity…..
http://www.spinsanity.org/about/
Spinsanity was founded in April 2001 by Ben Fritz, Bryan Keefer, and Brendan Nyhan, three recent college graduates who were distressed at the growing dominance of spin in American politics and determined to do something about it. The trio started Spinsanity as a nonpartisan watchdog dedicated to unspinning misleading claims from politicians, pundits and the press.

Here’s another one, that some of the people connected to this group helped write, but it does lack most citation, so view it as you like…
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5335853/site/newsweek/

[turtlefootrx]

everything on this website can only state that moore doesnt prove everything he says. for example:

Moore proceeds with the heavy-handed narrative, suggesting he is unraveling the alleged hidden story of the US war in Afghanistan through a series of loose juxtapositions:

In 1997, while George W. Bush was governor of Texas, a delegation of Taliban leaders from Afghanistan flew to Houston to meet with Unocal executives to discuss the building of a pipeline through Afghanistan bringing natural gas from the Caspian Sea. And who got a Caspian Sea drilling contract the same day Unocal signed the pipeline deal? A company headed by a man named Dick Cheney: Halliburton.

[clips of Bush and Cheney talking about Halliburton from 2000]

And who else stood to benefit from the pipeline? Bush's #1 campaign contributor: Kenneth Lay and the good people of Enron. Only the British press covered this trip.

Contrary's to Moore's implication, the fact that Bush was governor of Texas at the time of the Taliban/Unocal meeting does nothing to prove that he was somehow involved in the meeting. Governors are obviously not responsible for every business dealing that takes place in their state. Nonetheless, Moore slips his name in to link him to the deal.

theres no possable way that moore can completely prove this because in all reality, theres no way the bush family, the cheney family, halliburton, or enron, are going to admit to it. the whole point of the movie is to make you question what youre told, based on the information that we CAN confirm. its all too convenient that cheney got the contract, ended up being vice president, yet bush had "nothing to do with it". all anyone ever says is that moore doesnt backup what he says. but who would really admit to the entire country that any of this is true?

[evolpics]

Michael Moore exercised his freedom of speech and that is all. No1 says everyones freedom of speech has to be 100% true. Bush's speeches aren't all true. He tries to keep stuff from the people to "protect" them. Moore simply put his opinion out there, he didnt want everyone to believe it, he just wanted to be heard. Whats wrong with that?

[Justin_stacy]

everything on this website can only state that moore doesnt prove everything he says. for example:

not exactly,
But as Ken Silverstein wrote in The American Prospect back in 2002 and Isikoff and Hosenball show in their article about "Fahrenheit," Unocal dropped support for the pipeline in 1998 (the company has issued a press release making this point). In 2002, Afghanistan did sign the agreement Moore described, but Unocal is not involved in the project, which is still in its planning stages and may never come to fruition.

Moore's phrasing suggests that the Bin Ladens profited from the post-Sept. 11 buildup with the United Defense IPO but were forced to withdraw after the stock sale. However, Labash notes that the Bin Ladens withdrew before the initial filing, not afterward, missing the big payday Moore insinuates that they received.

and the misleading....

Given that Moore states that "In the days following September 11, all commercial and private airline traffic was grounded," how are viewers to know that this description did not include the Saudi flights out of the country? The "after September 13th" clause may show that Moore's claim was technically accurate, but it leaves viewers with the distinct impression that the Bin Ladens left the country before others were allowed to.

and saying something you can't back up or defend, and calling it the absolute truth...which refering to something as documentary, does...is just like lying...

Definition of Documentary..
doc·u·men·ta·ry (dky-mnt-r) KEY

ADJECTIVE:
1. Consisting of, concerning, or based on documents.
2. Presenting facts objectively without editorializing or inserting fictional matter, as in a book or film.


theres no possable way that moore can completely prove this because in all reality, theres no way the bush family, the cheney family, halliburton, or enron, are going to admit to it. the whole point of the movie is to make you question what youre told, based on the information that we CAN confirm. its all too convenient that cheney got the contract, ended up being vice president, yet bush had "nothing to do with it". all anyone ever says is that moore doesnt backup what he says. but who would really admit to the entire country that any of this is true?

Ok say that's a valid point, just say.....Now how do you explain, or defend, him saying stuff he knew, or should have known through the research he said he did, was false? Is that really defendable? Does it not destroy the overall credibility of his "movie"?...

Here is another nice link, which I wasn't going to post, but since he allows moore to rebut some of his claims, and gives examples for factual critiques of the bush administration, I will....... http://www.davekopel.org/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm .....But again take it as you want...