Affirmative Action

[shrguy]

Some things I found:

http://www.now.org/issues/affirm/talking.html
Myth: Affirmative Action is "reverse discrimination" — let's stop giving special rights to certain groups while others are left out.

Fact: Affirmative Action is fair!

Affirmative Action levels the playing field so people of color and all women have the chance to compete in education and in business. White men hold 95% to 97% of the high-level corporate jobs. And that's with affirmative action programs in place. Imagine how low figures would be without affirmative action. Of 3000 federal court decisions in discrimination cases between 1990 and 1994, only 100 involved claims of reverse discrimination; only 6 of those claims were found to be valid.

http://www.bamn.com/doc/go.asp?factsheet-myths.asp




I'm not a huge fan of affirmative action. I don't think race or gender should play any factor in getting into college or a job. The most qualified people should get the jobs, period. Just me though.


WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS!??????


p.s. sorry for another poll in the education forum:D

[im_random]

I'm not a huge fan of affirmative action. I don't think race or gender should play any factor in getting into college or a job. The most qualified people should get the jobs, period. Just me though.

Exactly what I was going to say

[aminorthreat55]

Here's what needs to be removed from college applications:
1. Whether or not you play sports for the school
2. Your race
3. Whether or not your family went there (legacies)

First of all, I don't think its fair for people to go to incredible schools for free just because they play a sport. This is the case for some of my friends and a good amount of people I know, but I still don't think its right that an atheltic idiot can go to a good school while smarter people have to pay to go to a not-so-great school. I know this isn't always the case, and that there are smart athletes and that some of these people may deserve to be there academically, but that shouldn't be such a huge part of being admitted to a school.

Your race shouldn't matter. Like anyone in the selection process will tell you, we want "the best and the brighest" It shouldn't even be on the application.

Legacies are bullshit, plain and simple. While that may have gotten me into one of the schools I applied to, I've heard stories of complete idiots getting into schools like Duke because their parents and grandparents went there. That's nice and I'm sure Duke would like to take even more money from your family, but you don't deserve to be there.

All that stuff shouldn't matter. You know how there are questions you can't ask during job interviews, well it should be the same for college applications.

[punkerx99]

I really dislike Affirmative Action. Acceptance should be based on merit, not ethnicity.

[Love As Arson]

Less than one percent of caucasians are affected by affirmative action. As opposed to the amount of minorities that were, and are, affected by past US policies. How is that unfair?

[punkerx99]

I have a lot of friends at my school who are minorities and are good students. However, I also have friends at my school who are minorities and don't take advantage of anything the school has to offer, don't try in school, and aren't respectful of anything in the slightest--aka free ride. So maybe I'm being closeminded, but I'm basing it off of what I've encountered.

[_astheruinfalls]

What ever happened to equality?

[Love As Arson]

What ever happened to equality?
Slavery and the oppressive policies, which followed its abolition.

[_astheruinfalls]

Slavery and the oppressive policies, which followed its abolition.
We can not change the past. Giving you benefits will not make up for your ancestors being abused and mistreated.

[venus/bacchus]

Less than one percent of caucasians are affected by affirmative action. As opposed to the amount of minorities that were, and are, affected by past US policies. How is that unfair?
I know we've argued this before, so I won't go in depth, you know my stance. But I did wonder how you felt about reparations.

[Love As Arson]

We can not change the past. Giving you benefits will not make up for your ancestors being abused and mistreated.
You do realise that we still feel the affects of those policies, right?

[_astheruinfalls]

You do realise that we still feel the affects of those policies, right?
Examples.

[Love As Arson]

Examples.
Do you think it's a coincidence that black people are more poverty stricken than white people?

[venus/bacchus]

Less than one percent of caucasians are affected by affirmative action. As opposed to the amount of minorities that were, and are, affected by past US policies. How is that unfair?I did wonder how you felt about reparations.
...

[Tanooki Suit]

I think it's pretty clear he supports indirect reparations, like Affirmative Action.

[Love As Arson]

I know we've argued this before, so I won't go in depth, you know my stance. But I did wonder how you felt about reparations.
I'm not in favor of reparations. Simply giving money will not help African Americans recover from the effects of America's past oppressive policies. That is why I support affirmative action.

[_astheruinfalls]

Do you think it's a coincidence that black people are more poverty stricken than white people?
You can not say that every single poverty stricken black person actually tries to get out of the projects and shit. Sure, a lot do. But not all. And anyways, do you think that a lot of them are even going to go to college?

[Love As Arson]

You can not say that every single poverty stricken black person actually tries to get out of the projects and shit. Sure, a lot do. But not all. And anyways, do you think that a lot of them are even going to go to college?
No, I will not say that, but the oppurtunity should be there for those that want to try to make a better life for themselves, but have a hard time doing so due to past policies.

[VinnyVegas]

I know we've argued this before, so I won't go in depth, you know my stance. But I did wonder how you felt about reparations.

Nice avatar...
:lol2: :lol2:

[_astheruinfalls]

No, I will not say that, but the oppurtunity should be there for those that want to try to make a better life for themselves, but have a hard time doing so due to past policies.
What about me? I'm living through hard times NOW. Why shouldn't I be helped?

[_astheruinfalls]

And then I guess that you believe that Jews deserve Israel?

[Love As Arson]

And then I guess that you believe that Jews deserve Israel?
The situation doesn't apply.
What about me? I'm living through hard times NOW. Why shouldn't I be helped?
Was the white race enslaved, and then oppressed until about forty years ago? You really should think about that. And you expect African Americans to be caught up without help. It doesn't work that way.

[_astheruinfalls]

The situation doesn't apply.

Was the white race enslaved, and then oppressed until about forty years ago? You really should think about that. And you expect African Americans to be caught up without help. It doesn't work that way.
In a way, it does. They were persecuted before even the middle ages.

Am I condoning what they did? No. Do I think it was right? Hell no. Do I think giving certain African Americans a better chance for school/jobs because they are black will fix the problem? No.

[Love As Arson]

In a way, it does. They were persecuted before even the middle ages.

Am I condoning what they did? No. Do I think it was right? Hell no. Do I think giving certain African Americans a better chance for school/jobs because they are black will fix the problem? No.
The creation of Israel required the direct oppression of the Palestinians, and as much as white people would like to make themselves out to be victims of affirmative action, they are not being oppressed as the Palestinians were. Look at the stats. Read my earlier post about the percentage of white people that are affected by affirmative action. Now tell me that is unfair.
Giving African Americans a better chance at school is what is needed to help their status economically, because as we all know, the amount , and quality of education one gets directly affects the kind of job they get. Affirmative actions gives African Americans the chance to get better jobs, which means the next generation may not have to live in poverty, and in the future it will help eliminate the need for affirmative action.

[richter915]

I think affirmative action is really a great thing because to all the retards who think that just because the person is black he'll get a free ride...please kick yourself...that's not true in the least bit...more often than not the minorities who are aided by AA are very well qualified...in certain cases such as Bakke yes he wasn't and the supreme court said that reverse racism through AA was wrong and made it illegal so quit bitching.

don't complain until you can find me a single white person who needed the national guard by his/her side to go to a public school and still get heckled for being a "cracker".

don't complain until you can find the word "cracka" written and published within educational textbooks and used to identify white people within the US.

You people that not all minorities deserve the special treatment...you mention how half the minorities get a "free ride" cause they don't work hard...from what I know...for every one lazy minority...I can find ten lazy white kids who are gonna go to a better college cause their dad's have connections.

fuck inequality.

[_astheruinfalls]

I think affirmative action is really a great thing because to all the retards who think that just because the person is black he'll get a free ride...please kick yourself...that's not true in the least bit...more often than not the minorities who are aided by AA are very well qualified...in certain cases such as Bakke yes he wasn't and the supreme court said that reverse racism through AA was wrong and made it illegal so quit bitching.

don't complain until you can find me a single white person who needed the national guard by his/her side to go to a public school and still get heckled for being a "cracker".

don't complain until you can find the word "cracka" written and published within educational textbooks and used to identify white people within the US.

You people that not all minorities deserve the special treatment...you mention how half the minorities get a "free ride" cause they don't work hard...from what I know...for every one lazy minority...I can find ten lazy white kids who are gonna go to a better college cause their dad's have connections.

fuck inequality.
I can really agree with you. People like that disgust me and make me ashamed of being white.

I don't know, I'm actually really caught up on this. I go back and forth...

[_astheruinfalls]

The creation of Israel required the direct oppression of the Palestinians, and as much as white people would like to make themselves out to be victims of affirmative action, they are not being oppressed as the Palestinians were. Look at the stats. Read my earlier post about the percentage of white people that are affected by affirmative action. Now tell me that is unfair.
Giving African Americans a better chance at school is what is needed to help their status economically, because as we all know, the amount , and quality of education one gets directly affects the kind of job they get. Affirmative actions gives African Americans the chance to get better jobs, which means the next generation may not have to live in poverty, and in the future it will help eliminate the need for affirmative action.
I don't think whites are victims of it, if that's what you believe. And I never said it was unfair for white people.

I can agree that they need help. But when I see kids at school ( no matter what race ) not doing work, slacking off, being assholes, etc...do they deserve a helping hand? Fuck no.

[richter915]

I can agree that they need help. But when I see kids at school ( no matter what race ) not doing work, slacking off, being assholes, etc...do they deserve a helping hand? Fuck no.

amen to that.

[_astheruinfalls]

amen to that.
And that's really one thing holding me back from supporting AA. Just the fact that kids that don't do ANYTHING can get thrown into college for nothing and get a job ahead of me, when I worked my ass off, doesn't fly. But if they've worked hard, and they needed some help getting into college or getting a push for a job, then great. I'm glad.

[richter915]

you're totally right...I think AA was fine at first like previously stated but now adays it just gets abused. I think that the best way is to adjust AA to be like...in order to be eligible for AA you need to fulfill certain criteria (certain test scores, things like that depending on the scenario). If you can't fulfill the criteria or if someone has better creds than you...you're not gonna get anything special.

it's just lazy ass mother fuckers who can breeze through life and then complain about things like AA which make it too "easy" for others. These people who think the concept of the glass ceiling is non-existant for minorities (women would fall under that too).

But hey, when your president is a rich white man fighting to get richer by killing people who look different...what else do you expect.

[Tanooki Suit]

Proponents of AA would not support arbitrary test score minimums, since they like to propagate the myth that standardized tests are racially biased.

[aminorthreat55]

Proponents of AA would not support arbitrary test score minimums, since they like to propagate the myth that standardized tests are racially biased.

Not racially biased, socioeconomically biased. And there is a correlation between one's socioeconomics standing and their race, sort of.

[Love As Arson]

I don't think whites are victims of it, if that's what you believe. And I never said it was unfair for white people.

I can agree that they need help. But when I see kids at school ( no matter what race ) not doing work, slacking off, being assholes, etc...do they deserve a helping hand? Fuck no.
Let's not punish the whole for the actions of the few.

[_astheruinfalls]

Let's not punish the whole for the actions of the few.
I'm not saying cancel it all together. I like Richter's idea about having a criteria you have to meet to be elligable.

But I think that every poverty stricken person deserves help, not just the blacks.

[shrguy]

I'm not saying cancel it all together. I like Richter's idea about having a criteria you have to meet to be elligable.

But I think that every poverty stricken person deserves help, not just the blacks.
i agree with ya there. help should be given to the needy. but that doesn't mean we just give them jobs and take them away from qualified people.

[classicjazz123]

Do you think it's a coincidence that black people are more poverty stricken than white people?


thats because there stupid









joke

[_astheruinfalls]

thats because there stupid









joke
They're.

You're a fucking joke.

[richter915]

thats because there stupid









joke
you're the reason why reverse racism doesn't matter(if you're white).

you're the reason why I think AA should be limited (if you're a minority).

you're the reason I still have wet dreams (if you're Paul Reiser).

[sleepygrlgreen]

thats because there stupid









joke


wow....just....wow. i don't know you and ok, it might be a joke to you but just....wow. get out of my house!!

[somesortofidiot]

Affirmative Action is Racism
plain and simple

[richter915]

you're the reason why reverse racism doesn't matter(if you're white).

you're the reason why I think AA should be limited (if you're a minority).

you're the reason I still have wet dreams (if you're Paul Reiser).
I don't remember ever saying that...pretty retarded.

[Love As Arson]

I just find it funny that it is okay for blacks to be oppressed for centuries, yet when programs are put in place for them to gain ground, and be able to compete, it's called racism.
/Random bump

[richter915]

I just find it funny that it is okay for blacks to be oppressed for centuries, yet when programs are put in place for them to gain ground, and be able to compete, it's called racism.
/Random bump
damn white people.

[urowndisaster52]

it's bullshit that i can get muscled out by someone who is not as skilled as me just because of their race. I am not racist at all, but i think the injustice has been made up, especially considering that all of those benefitting my AA were not alive long enough to be slaves, nor in in the Civil Rights movement. Affirmative Action is racism in itself. It perpetuates feelings of difference between races.

[im_random]

We had a huge (aka 45 minutes) discussion on affirmitive action today in my morality class. I know I already responded, but now that I'm getting into the whole applying to college thing..it pisses me off even more. I just find it ludicrous that someone who isn't as qualified as someone else can get into the college of their choice because of their race. That's such bullshit.

If they just took that question off of applications everything would be much better off.

[Love As Arson]

Both of you have no idea what affirmative action actually is, so do us a favor and stop talking, because your idiocy is suffocating.

[im_random]

Both of you have no idea what affirmative action actually is, so do us a favor and stop talking, because your idiocy is suffocating.

Okay then please enlighten me and tell me what it ACTUALLY is.

[Love As Arson]

Okay then please enlighten me and tell me what it ACTUALLY is.
Programs put forth to ensure equality, and to eliminate the boundaries put up by past policies of the American government. It allows for a black kid in the ghetto to be on the same playing field as upper middle class white kid. Preferring one race to another, or favoring the unqualified is not a part of this.

[im_random]

Programs put forth to ensure equality, and to eliminate the boundaries put up by past policies of the American government. It allows for a black kid in the ghetto to be on the same playing field as upper middle class white kid. Preferring one race to another, or favoring the unqualified is not a part of this.

Okay thank you I better understand now. But if they completely eliminated putting the "what is your race" question on any applications, then there wouldn't be a problem. No one would know what race any applicant is, and therefore students would be accepted based solely (with the exception of athletes and legacies) on qualifications.

[Love As Arson]

It is still necessary for economic reasons.

[SuperWoman7700]

It is still necessary for economic reasons.
Explain por favor

[Love As Arson]

Explain por favor
The groups judged as in need of affirmative action generally are economically disadvantaged, so affirmative action also helps in this area.

[SuperWoman7700]

The groups judged as in need of affirmative action generally are economically disadvantaged, so affirmative action also helps in this area.
interesting topic

[Rebs]

i totally disagree with affirmative action. race and gender shouldnt have anything to do with getting in to a school. it should be grades, test scores and involvement. personally, i wouldnt want to get in to a school just because im female

[IAmCountryMusic]

what are women again?

[richter915]

Okay thank you I better understand now. But if they completely eliminated putting the "what is your race" question on any applications, then there wouldn't be a problem. No one would know what race any applicant is, and therefore students would be accepted based solely (with the exception of athletes and legacies) on qualifications.
yet ye forget college interviews. When you're applying to a prestigious school like...well any Ivy league...chances are you're gonna have to go for an interview...now as much as we like to pretend it doesn't happen...interviewers will prefer a caucasian student over a non-caucasian (especially when the admissions committee is mostly caucasian)...it does happen, even today...

what I think is stupid is the reverse racism case of cal vs. bakke...I mean, honestly...that's like saying that this one case of reverse racism is so much worse than all the times when non-whites were not accepted...

affirmative action is to help out the less fortunate...it's as simple as that.

what are women again?
ever hear of the concept of the glass ceiling? that's why women can sometimes apply for affirmative action.

[Love As Arson]

i totally disagree with affirmative action. race and gender shouldnt have anything to do with getting in to a school. it should be grades, test scores and involvement. personally, i wouldnt want to get in to a school just because im female
Are you a fucking moron? Read the thread. I clearly explained what affirmative action was, and why it is necessary. Stop regurgitating what is fed to you.

[Rebs]

Are you a fucking moron? Read the thread. I clearly explained what affirmative action was, and why it is necessary. Stop regurgitating what is fed to you.
no i am not a moron and i am not regurgitating what is fed to me, thats what i think.

[Love As Arson]

no i am not a moron and i am not regurgitating what is fed to me, thats what i think.
What you think has nothing to do with what affirmative action is. Read the post I made before describing what affirmative action actually is.

[IAmCountryMusic]

ever hear of the concept of the glass ceiling? that's why women can sometimes apply for affirmative action.
no, whats that?

[im_random]

It is still necessary for economic reasons.

But what about things such as financial aid?

[Love As Arson]

But what about things such as financial aid?
Affirmative action helps in this area.

[richter915]

But what about things such as financial aid?
more important when it comes to financial aid is the FAFSA...if you do that and just show that your family is poor the government will give you money...I'm talking grants, not loans. When you file your FAFSA (or TAP in NY) there is no place where you have to put ur race/ethnicity (I think...) because it's all based on the tax papers you and/or your parents file.

no, whats that?
the glass ceiling is a metaphorical term that came up during the 80s and 90s during the whole rise of the businesswoman phase in the US. What it pretty much means is that no matter how hard or how well qualified a woman is...there's always gonna be a "glass ceiling" in between the woman and the highest positions in an industry. the ceiling is glass because the woman's qualifications make it seem as though she'd be best fit for the job...so she can "see" where she is going but then the ceiling hits her and she is forced to stop.

Things like affirmative action (and many other things) are here to help diminish the glass ceiling and it has made a difference since it's creation.

no i am not a moron and i am not regurgitating what is fed to me, thats what i think.
did you even read my response?? The interview process is huge and you can't really stop being black for the day of your interview.

[Rebs]

did you even read my response?? The interview process is huge and you can't really stop being black for the day of your interview.

yes, but to me it seems like that affirmative action is only furthering the divide between the races in the united states.

[mondeoman]

Personally I'm still stuck on this issue, meaning that I don't know how to feel. But on the issue of college education, I think there should be some MASSIVE reforms in the way that it is easier for those who make lower incomes (no matter what race) to go to school. I know too many people who have to drop out of school because of money and I go to a really cheap school.

[richter915]

yes, but to me it seems like that affirmative action is only furthering the divide between the races in the united states.
so you think that minorities should remain disenfranchised in society?

[urowndisaster52]

Affirmative action helps in this area.
no, you're fucking wrong about it. Colleges have certain quotas that they must fulfill. They must allow a set number of minorities to enter each year. It is an attempt to curve racism, not poor people. It is somewhat racist of you to even say that blacks are more poor than whites, thus needing more college. The NAACP and the UNCF give financial aid to blacks. Affirmative Action is also instilled in many big bassnesses, so don't tell me that it is just about education and educating blacks. Rebs is completely right, Affirmative Action just leads to further racism. Johnson even said when he signed the bill that we "need to make up for years of injustice"

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry?id=669

[IAmCountryMusic]

angry

[MidniteVulture]

It's a joke.

[IAmCountryMusic]

i thought affirmative action meant gettin' it on

[Love As Arson]

no, you're fucking wrong about it. Colleges have certain quotas that they must fulfill. They must allow a set number of minorities to enter each year. It is an attempt to curve racism, not poor people. It is somewhat racist of you to even say that blacks are more poor than whites, thus needing more college. The NAACP and the UNCF give financial aid to blacks. Affirmative Action is also instilled in many big bassnesses, so don't tell me that it is just about education and educating blacks. Rebs is completely right, Affirmative Action just leads to further racism. Johnson even said when he signed the bill that we "need to make up for years of injustice"

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry?id=669
No, you are the one that is wrong. Now, while it is true that courts have ordered temporary quotas, it was only done when said companies were found guilty of intentional discrimination. (Executive Order 11246) Specifically stats that affirmative action plans may not include "rigid and inflexible quotas which must be met".
As for colleges, you are dead wrong, they in no way have to have a set amount of minorities each year. That is something ascribed to affirmative action rather unfairly, without actual proof.
The reason I spoke of blacks and poverty is because due to past US policies blacks have had less wealth than whites, as they did not have a level playing field. The two are linked.

[Rebs]

No, you are the one that is wrong. Now, while it is true that courts have ordered temporary quotas, it was only done when said companies were found guilty of intentional discrimination. (Executive Order 11246) Specifically stats that affirmative action plans may not include "rigid and inflexible quotas which must be met".
As for colleges, you are dead wrong, they in no way have to have a set amount of minorities each year. That is something ascribed to affirmative action rather unfairly, without actual proof.
The reason I spoke of blacks and poverty is because due to past US policies blacks have had less wealth than whites, as they did not have a level playing field. The two are linked.

Actually you are wrong on this. My uncle is head of admissions at Virginia Wesleyan and they are required to have a certain percentage of minorities. Public universities have different guidlines, but the schools have to have a certain amount. I don't know the exact numbers though.

[urowndisaster52]

Actually you are wrong on this. My uncle is head of admissions at Virginia Wesleyan and they are required to have a certain percentage of minorities. Public universities have different guidlines, but the schools have to have a certain amount. I don't know the exact numbers though.
yeah...what he said

[open mind]

i whole heartedly support affirmative action, i could list plenty of reasons why, but if anyone cares about my thoughts on the subject they can go into the politics section and find some old topic.

it sure is a "suprise" to see so many people against affirmative action that have no real idea what it functions as on a sight frequented mostly by my pale brothers and sisters, what's funny is the jumping to conclusions so many of you take on a racial issue in one sentence and in the next say that racism is pretty much dead.

[Love As Arson]

Actually you are wrong on this. My uncle is head of admissions at Virginia Wesleyan and they are required to have a certain percentage of minorities. Public universities have different guidlines, but the schools have to have a certain amount. I don't know the exact numbers though.
Proof?