Sports Forum MLB Awards

[CubbyNick42]

Post your official top 5 ballot for AL & NL MVP, Cy Young, Manager of the Year, and Rookie of the Year here. Some rules...

1) You MUST fill out all five spots for every award or your entry is void. 5 pts for 1st place, 4 for 2nd, etc.

2) Let's keep all the debate to the MLB thread; this is just for selections. The ONLY posts that should appear in this thread are your first one with your initial awards ballot, and once you decide to change it, just update your original post and bump the thread by posting "updated."

3) Any entry which isn't given one final update within 3 days of the final day of the regular season will be void.

I'll keep updating this first post with the overall tally to date. Again, NO DEBATES HERE. Keep it in the MLB thread.

*********

I'll update these when I get the chance. First place votes in parentheses.

AL MVP

1. Carlos Quentin - 53 (6)
2. Alex Rodriguez - 49 (3)
3. Justin Morneau - 33 (2)
4. Kevin Youkilis - 29
5. Grady Sizemore - 21 (2)
6. Joe Mauer - 11 (1)
7. Dustin Pedroia - 10 (1)
8. Aubrey Huff - 8
9. Josh Hamilton - 6
10. Milton Bradley - 3
11. Jermaine Dye - 2

NL MVP

1. Albert Pujols - 74 (14)
2. Lance Berkman - 56 (1)
3. Ryan Ludwick - 18
4. Hanley Ramirez - 16
5t. Ryan Braun - 15
5t. Matt Holliday - 15
7. David Wright - 12
8. Chipper Jones - 11
9. Chase Utley - 6
10. Ryan Howard - 2

AL Cy Young

1. Cliff Lee - 74 (14)
2. Roy Halladay - 60 (1)
3. Ervin Santana - 38
4. Jon Lester - 19
5t. Daisuke Matsuzaka - 8
5t. Mike Mussina - 8
7. James Shields - 7
8. John Lackey - 5
9t. Justin Duchscherer - 2
9t. Javier Vazquez - 2
11t. AJ Burnett - 1
11t. John Danks - 1

NL Cy Young

1. Tim Lincecum - 75 (15)
2. Johan Santana - 47
3. Cole Hamels - 35
4. Brandon Webb - 24
5. Ben Sheets - 11
6. Jake Peavy - 10
7. Dan Haren - 9
8. Ryan Dempster - 7
9. Chad Billingsley - 3
10. Derek Lowe - 2
11t. Ricky Nolasco - 1
11t. Edinson Volquez - 1

AL Rookie of the Year

1. Evan Longoria - 75 (15)
2. Alexei Ramirez - 46
3. Armando Galarraga - 26
4. David Murphy - 25
5. Jacoby Ellsbury - 19
6. Denard Span - 13
7. Joba Chamberlain - 8
8. Mike Aviles - 5
9t. Chris Davis - 2
9t. Brad Ziegler - 2
11. Jim Johnson - 1

NL Rookie of the Year

1. Geovany Soto - 75 (15)
2. Joey Votto - 58
3. Jair Jurrjens - 31
4. Hiroki Kuroda - 20
5. Jorge Campillo - 19
6. Jay Bruce - 10
7. Kosuke Fukudome - 6
8t. Gregor Blanco - 3
8t. Ian Stewart - 3

AL Manager of the Year

1. Joe Maddon - 68 (13)
2. Ron Gardenhire - 55 (1)
3. Mike Scioscia - 38
4. Ozzie Guillen - 27
5. Cito Gaston - 11.5
6. Terry Francona - 8.5
7. Ron Washington - 2

NL Manager of the Year

1. Lou Piniella - 67 (11)
2. Tony LaRussa - 42 (1)
3. Cecil Cooper - 31
4. Jerry Manuel - 27 (2)
5. Fredi Gonzalez - 25
6. Joe Torre - 11
7. Charlie Manuel - 5
8. Ned Yost - 2

[youkwalks]

good idea, ill be back with my candidates.

oh and sorry for this post not being my selections. oops.

[LeftWideOpen]

AL MVP

1. Alex Rodriguez
2. Carlos Quentin
3. Kevin Youkilis
4. Joe Mauer
5. Grady Sizemore

NL MVP

1. Albert Pujols
2. Lance Berkman
3. Chipper Jones
4. Hanley Ramirez
5. David Wright

AL Cy Young

1. Cliff Lee
2. Roy Halladay
3. Jon Lester
4. Ervin Santana
5. Daisuke Matsuzaka

NL Cy Young
1. Tim Lincecum
2. Johan Santana
3. Cole Hamels
4. Ryan Dempster
5. Dan Haren

AL ROY

1. Evan Longoria
2. Alexei Ramirez
3. Jacoby Ellsbury
4. David Murphy
5. Mike Aviles

NL ROY

1. Geovanny Soto
2. Joey Votto
3. Jair Jurrjens
4. Hiroki Kuroda
5. Jay Bruce

AL Manager of the Year
1. Joe Maddon
2. Ron Gardenhire
3. Mike Sciosia
4. Ozzie Guillen
5. Terry Francona

NL Manager of the Year
1. Lou Piniella
2. Tony La Russa
3. Joe Torre
4. Cecil Cooper
5. Jerry Manuel

[xbrokendownx]

AL MVP

1. Carlos Quentin
2. Justin Morneau
3. Alex Rodriguez
4. Aubrey Huff
5. Kevin Youkilis


NL MVP

1. Albert Pujols
2. Ryan Braun
3. Lance Berkman
4. Matt Holliday
5. Ryan Ludwick

AL Cy Young

1. Cliff Lee
2. Roy Halladay
3. Ervin Santana
4. Jon Lester
5. Mike Mussina


NL Cy Young

1. Tim Lincecum
2. Brandon Webb
3. Cole Hamels
4. Johan Santana
5. Edinson Volquez


AL ROY

1. Evan Longoria
2. Alexei Ramirez
3. David Murphy
4. Armando Galaragga
5. Jacoby Ellsbury


NL ROY

1. Geovany Soto
2. Joey Votto
3. Hiroki Kuroda
4. Jair Jurrjens
5. Jay Bruce


AL Manager

1. Joe Maddon
2. Mike Scoscia
3. Ron Gardenhire
4. Terry Francona
5. Ozzie Guillen


NL Manager

1. Lou Piniella
2. Tony La Russa
3. Cecil Cooper
4. Fredi Gonzalez
5. Ned Yost

[ForlrnPerplxity]

Phil Garner?

LOL

(sorry Nick. Not sure why you want to just keep this to one post) I'll be back with my picks.

[CubbyNick42]

Haha, can you ask me in a PM instead of using a post? I'm just trying to keep clutter to a minimum.

[bigmike]

AL MVP

1. Grady Sizemore
2. Alex Rodriguez
3. Milton Bradley
4. Joe Mauer
5. Kevin Youkilis


NL MVP

1. Albert Pujols
2. Lance Berkman
3. Hanley Ramirez
4. Chipper Jones
5. Chase Utley

AL Cy Young

1. Cliff Lee
2. Ervin Santana
3. Roy Halladay
4. Javier Vasquez
5. AJ Burnett


NL Cy Young

1. Tim Lincecum
2. Brandon Webb
3. Dan Haren
4. Ben Sheets
5. Chad Billingsley


AL ROY

1. Evan Longoria
2. Alexei Ramirez
3. Davidl Murphy
4. Jacoby Ellsbury
5. Armando Galaragga


NL ROY

1. Geovany Soto
2. Joey Votto
3. Hiroki Kuroda
4. Jair Jurrjens
5. Jay Bruce

Don't care much about ROY, either.

Don't care about managers.

[Chris M.]

AL Most Valuable Player
1. Alex Rodriguez
2. Carlos Quentin
3. Justin Morneau
4. Aubrey Huff
5. Kevin Youkilis

NL Most Valuable Player
1. Albert Pujols
2. Lance Berkman
3. Ryan Ludwick
4. Ryan Braun
5. Matt Holliday

AL Cy Young
1. Cliff Lee
2. Roy Halladay
3. John Lackey
4. Ervin Santana
5. John Danks

NL Cy Young
1. Tim Lincecum
2. Johan Santana
3. Cole Hamels
4. Brandon Webb
5. Dan Haren

AL Rookie of the Year
1. Evan Longoria
2. Alexei Ramirez
3. Jacoby Ellsbury
4. Armando Galarraga
5. Denard Span

NL Rookie of the Year
1. Geovany Soto
2. Joey Votto
3. Jair Jurrjens
4. Hiroki Kuroda
5. Jorge Campillo

AL Manager of the Year
1. Joe Maddon
2. Ron Gardenhire
3. Mike Scioscia
4. Ozzie Guillen
5. Cito Gaston/Terry Francona

NL Manager of the Year
1. Lou Piniella
2. Tony La Russa
3. Cecil Cooper
4. Fredi Gonzalez
5. Ned Yost

By the way, Floyd and LWO, you guys both gave Phil Garner Manager... votes when he's not even in the league anymore. Cecil Cooper is the 'Stros manager.

edit: Pierce must have posted that while I was making my lists.

[bduke13]

AL MVP

1. Alex Rodriguez
2. Carlos Quentin
3. Grady Sizemore
4. Justin Morneau
5. Kevin Youkilis

NL MVP

1. Albert Pujols
2. Lance Berkman
3. Hanley Ramirez
4. Matt Holliday
5. Chipper Jones

AL Cy Young

1. Cliff Lee
2. Roy Halladay
3. Ervin Santana
4. John Lackey
5. Jon Lester

NL Cy Young
1. Tim Lincecum
2. Johan Santana
3. Jake Peavy
4. Ben Sheets
5. Cole Hamels

AL ROY

1. Evan Longoria
2. Denard Span
3. Armando Galarraga
4. Jacoby Ellsbury
5. Jim Johnson

NL ROY

1. Geovanny Soto
2. Joey Votto
3. Gregor Blanco
4. Jair Jurrjens
5. Hiroki Kuroda

AL Manager of the Year
1. Joe Maddon
2. Ron Gardenhire
3. Mike Sciosia
4. Cito Gaston
5. Ozzie Guillen

NL Manager of the Year
1. Lou Piniella
2. Tony La Russa
3. Jerry Manual
4. Cecil Cooper
5. Joe Torre

[looksthatkillbn]

AL MVP
1. Carlos Quentin
2. Alex Rodriguez
3. Kevin Youkilis
4. Aubrey Huff
5. Josh Hamilton

NL MVP
1. Albert Pujols
2. Lance Berkman
3. Ryan Ludwick
4. Ryan Braun
5. David Wright

AL Cy Young
1. Cliff Lee
2. Roy Halladay
3. Jon Lester
4. Ervin Santana
5. James Shields

NL Cy Young
1. Tim Lincecum
2. Cole Hamels
3. Ben Sheets
4. Johan Santana
5. Brandon Webb

AL ROY
1. Evan Longoria
2. Alexei Ramirez
3. David Murphy
4. Joba Chamberlain
5. Denard Span

NL ROY
1. Geovany Soto
2. Joey Votto
3. Jair Jurrjens
4. Jorge Campillo
5. Jay Bruce

AL MOY
1. Joe Maddon
2. Ron Gardenhire
3. Cito Gaston
4. Mike Scioscia
5. Ozzie Guillen

NL MOY
1. Tony LaRussa
2. Lou Piniella
3. Cecil Cooper
4. Jerry Manuel
5. Fredi Gonzalez

[CubbyNick42]

AL MVP

1. Joe Mauer
2. Kevin Youkilis
3. Grady Sizemore
4. Carlos Quentin
5. Justin Morneau

NL MVP

1. Albert Pujols
2. Lance Berkman
3. Hanley Ramirez
4. Chase Utley
5. David Wright

AL Cy Young

1. Cliff Lee
2. Roy Halladay
3. Ervin Santana
4. Jon Lester
5. James Shields

NL Cy Young

1. Tim Lincecum
2. Cole Hamels
3. Johan Santana
4. Ben Sheets
5. Ricky Nolasco

AL ROY

1. Evan Longoria
2. Denard Span
3. Mike Aviles
4. Alexei Ramirez
5. Joba Chamberlain

NL ROY

1. Geovany Soto
2. Joey Votto
3. Hiroki Kuroda
4. Jay Bruce
5. Jorge Campillo

AL Manager of the Year

1. Joe Maddon
2. Ron Gardenhire
3. Mike Scioscia
4. Cito Gaston
5. Terry Francona

NL Manager of the Year

1. Lou Piniella
2. Tony LaRussa
3. Joe Torre
4. Jerry Manuel
5. Fredi Gonzalez

[DaveFeelsRight]

AL MVP

1. Alex Rodriguez
2. Carlos Quentin
3. Justin Morneau
4. Kevin Youkilis
5. JD Drew

NL MVP

1. Albert Pujols
2. Lance Berkman
3. Ryan Braun
4. Ryan Ludwick
5. Chase Utley

AL Cy Young

1. Cliff Lee
2. Roy Halladay
3. Ervin Santana
4. Jon Lester
5. James Shields

NL Cy Young

1. Tim Lincecum
2. Cole Hamels
3. Johan Santana
4. Ben Sheets
5. Chad Billingsley

AL ROY

1. Evan Longoria
2. Alexei Ramirez
3. Joba Chamberlain
4. Armando Galarraga
5. Denard Span

NL ROY

1. Geovany Soto
2. Joey Votto
3. Jorge Campillo
4. Hiroki Kuroda
5. Jay Bruce

AL Manager
1. Joe Maddon
2. Mike Scioscia
3. Ozzie Guillen
4. Terry Francona
5. Ron Gardenhire

NL Manager of the Year

1. Lou Piniella
2. Tony LaRussa
3. Cecil Cooper
4. Jerry Manuel
5. Fredi Gonzalez

[ForlrnPerplxity]

AL MVP
1. Grady Sizemore
2. Kevin Youkilis
3. Carlos Quentin
4. Alex Rodriguez
5. Aubrey Huff

NL MVP
1. Albert Pujols
2. Lance Berkman
3. Ryan Ludwick
4. Hanley Ramirez
5. Matt Holliday

AL CY YOUNG
1. Cliff Lee
2. Roy Halladay
3. Ervin Santana
4. Jon Lester
5. James Shields

NL CY YOUNG
1. Tim Lincecum
2. Johan Santana
3. Cole Hamels
4. Derek Lowe
5. Brandon Webb

AL ROOKIE OF THE YEAR
1. Evan Longoria
2. Armando Gallaraga
3. David Murphy
4. Alexei Ramirez
5. Joba Chamberlain

NL ROOKIE OF THE YEAR
1. Geovany Soto
2. Joey Votto
3. Hiroki Kuroda
4. Jorge Campillo
5. Jair Jurrjens

AL MANAGER OF THE YEAR
1. Joe Maddon
2. Ozzie Guillen
3. Ron Gardenhire
4. Mike Scioscia
5. Terry Francona

NL MANAGER OF THE YEAR
1. Lou Piniella
2. Fredi Gonzalez
3. Tony La Russa
4. Cecil Cooper
5. Joe Torre

[Killadelphia]

AL MVP
1. Carlos Quentin
2. Alex Rodriquez
3. Justin Morneau
4. Kevin Youkilis
5. Aubrey Huff

NL MVP
1. Albert Pujols
2. Lance Berkman
3. Matt Holliday
4. Ryan Ludwick
5. Hanley Ramirez

AL CY YOUNG
1. Cliff Lee
2. Roy Halladay
3. Ervin Santana
4. James Shields
5. Justin Duchscherer

NL CY YOUNG
1. Tim Lincecum
2. Cole Hamels
3. Dan Haren
4. Johan Santana
5. Ben Sheets

AL ROOKIE OF THE YEAR
1. Evan Longoria
2. Armando Gallaraga
3. David Murphy
4. Chris Davis
5. Joba Chamberlain

NL ROOKIE OF THE YEAR
1. Geovany Soto
2. Joey Votto
3. Ian Stewart
4. Jorge Campillo
5. Jay Bruce

AL MANAGER OF THE YEAR
1. Joe Maddon
2. Ron Gardenhire
3. Ozzie Guillen
4. Mike Scioscia
5. Cito Gaston

NL MANAGER OF THE YEAR
1. Lou Piniella
2. Fredi Gonzalez
3. Tony LaRussa
4. Cecil Cooper
5. Jerry Manuel

[Drew Beringer]

lol @ people putting Yost in the top 5 for Manager of the year lolol

[Scott Weber]

AL MVP

1. Carlos Quentin
2. Kevin Youkilis
3. Alex Rodriguez
4. Joe Mauer
5. Jermaine Dye


NL MVP

1. Albert Pujols
2. Lance Berkman
3. David Wright
4. Matt Holliday
5. Ryan Ludwick

AL Cy Young

1. Cliff Lee
2. Roy Halladay
3. Ervin Santana
4. Mike Mussina
5. Jon Lester

NL Cy Young

1. Tim Lincecum
2. Johan Santana
3. Cole Hamels
4. Jake Peavy
5. Ben Sheets

AL ROY

1. Evan Longoria
2. Mike Aviles
3. Alexei Ramirez
4. David Murphy
5. Armando Galarraga

NL ROY

1. Geovanny Soto
2. Joey Votto
3. Jorge Campillio
4. Kosuke Fukodome
5. Jair Jurrjens

AL Manager of the Year
1. Joe Maddon
2. Ron Gardenhire
3. Mike Scoscia
4. Ozzie Guillen
5. Ron Washington

NL Manager of the Year
1. Lou Piniella
2. Cecil Cooper
3. Fredi Gonzalez
4. Tony LaRussa
5. Charlie Manuel

[avengedtbs]

AL MVP
1. Carlos Quentin
2. Alex Rodriquez
3. Justin Morneau
4. Kevin Youkilis
5. Dustin Pedroia

NL MVP
1. Albert Pujols
2. Lance Berkman
3. David Wright
4. Ryan Braun
5. Matt Holliday

AL Cy Young
1. Cliff Lee
2. Roy Halladay
3. Ervin Santana
4. Daisuke Matsuzaka
5. Mike Mussina

NL Cy Young
1. Tim Lincecum
2. Brandon Webb
3. Johan Santana
4. Cole Hamels
5. Ryan Dempster

AL ROY
1. Evan Langoria
2. Alexi Ramirez
3. David Murphy
4. Armando Gallaraga
5. Joba Chamberlain

NL ROY
1. Geovany Soto
2. Joey Votto
3. Jorge Campillo
4. Jair Jurrjens
5 Hiroki Kuroda

AL Manager of the Year
1. Joe Maddon
2. Ron Gardenhire
3. Mike Scoscia
4. Ozzie Guillen
5. Terry Francona

NL Manager of the Year
1. Jerry Manuel
2. Lou Piniella
3. Cecil Cooper
4. Fredi Gonzalez
5. Tony LaRussa

[StandMyBrothers]

none of you guys put Mike Aviles for at least the 5 spot on your list for AL ROTY?!

i'm a douche and didn't read the rules before I posted!

[kshtoinks12]

AL MVP
1. Justin Morneau
2. Dustin Pedroia
3. Alex Rodriguez
4. Carlos Quentin
5. Grady Sizemore

NL MVP
1. Albert Pujols
2. Lance Berkman
3. Matt Holliday
4. Chipper Jones
5. Ryan Howard

AL Cy Young
1. Roy Halladay
2. Cliff Lee
3. Daisuke Matsuzaka
4. Mike Mussina
5. Jon Lester

NL Cy Young
1. Tim Lincecum
2. Johan Santana
3. Jake Peavy
4. Cole Hamels
5. Ryan Dempster

AL ROY
1. Evan Longoria
2. Alexei Ramirez
3. Armando Galarraga
4. Jacoby Ellsbury
5. Brad Ziegler

NL ROY
1. Geovany Soto
2. Jarr Jurrjens
3. Joey Votto
4. Kosuke Fukudome
5. Jorge Campillo

AL Manager of the Year
1. Ron Gardenhire
2. Mike Scosia
3. Joe Maddon
4. Ozzie Guillen
5. Terry Francona

NL Manager of the Year
1. Jerry Manuel
2. Lou Piniella
3. Cecil Cooper
4. Charlie Manuel
5. Tony LaRussa

[thatsignant]

AL MVP

1. Justin Morneau
2. Carlos Quentin
3. Alex Rodriguez
4. Grady Sizemore
5. Josh Hamilton

NL MVP

1. Albery Pujols
2. Lance Berkman
3. David Wright
4. Ryan Ludwick
5. Ryan Howard

AL Cy Young

1. Cliff Lee
2. Roy Halladay
3. Ervin Santana
4. Mike Mussina
5. Justin Duscherer

NL Cy Young

1. Tim Lincecum
2. Johan Santana
3. Cole Hamels
4. Brandon Webb
5. Chad Billingsley

AL ROY

1. Evan Longoria
2. Alexei Ramirez
3. Denard Span
4. Joba Chamberlain
5. Jacoby Ellsbury

NL ROY

1. Giovanni Soto
2. Joey Votto
3. Jair Jurrjens
4. Jay Bruce
5. Jorge Campillo

AL MOY

1. Joe Maddon
2. Ron Gardenhire
3. Mike Scoscia
4. Ozzie Guillen
5 . Cito Gaston

NL MOY

1. Lou Pinella
2. Tony LaRussa
3. Fredi Gonzalez
4. Jerry Manuel
5. Joe Torre

Comeback Players:

Cliff Lee
Jorge Cantu

[ForlrnPerplxity]

I updated my final list.

[acfrue]

geovany soto rookie of the year...i'm sure glad that i got a geo soto jersey instead of a fukudome jersey, lolz that would have been a bad choice

[livethesounds]

AL MVP

1.Carlos Quentin
2. Alex Rodriguez
3. Justin Mornaeu
4. Josh Hamilton
5. Grady Sizemore

NL MVP

1. Lance Berkman
2. Albert Puljols
3. Chase Utley
4. Chipper Jones
5. Ryan Braun

AL Cy Young

1. Cliff Lee
2. Roy Halliday
3. Ervin Santana
4. James Shields
5. Jon Lester

NL Cy Young

1. Tim Lincecum
2. Brandon Webb
3. Johan Santana
4. Jake Peavy
5. Dan Haren

AL ROY

1. Evan Longoria
2. Alexi Ramirez
3. David Murphy
4. Armando Gallaraga
5. Jacoby Ellsberry

NL ROY

1. Geovany Sotto
2. Joey Votto
3. Jorge Campillo
4. Hideki Kuroda
5. Jair Jurgens

AL MOY

1. Joe Madden
2. Ron Gardenhire
3. Mike Scosia
4. Ozzie Guillen
5. Ron Washington

NL MOY

1. Lou Piniela
2. Cecil Cooper
3. Fredi Gonzales
4. Jerry Manuel
5. Joe Torre

[livethesounds]

haha, phil garner

[AbbeyCarbs]

AL MVP
1. Dustin Pedroia
2. Justion Morneau
3. Kevin Youkilis
4. Josh Hamilton
5. Jermaine Dye

NL MVP
1. Albert Pujols
2. Ryan Braun
3. Ryan Ludwick
4. Hanley Ramirez
5. Chipper Jones

AL Cy Young
1. Cliff Lee
2. Roy Halladay
3. Jon Lester
4. Daisuke Matsuzaka
5. Ervin Santana

NL Cy Young
1. Tim Lincecum
2. Johan Santana
3. Ryan Dempster
4. Brandon Webb
5. Chad Billingsley

AL ROY
1. Evan Longoria
2. Jacoby Ellsbury
3. Alexei Ramirez
4. Armando Galarraga
5. Joey Ziegler

NL ROY
1. Geovanny Soto
2. Jair Jurrjens
3. Joey Votto
4. Kosuke Fukudome
5. Jay Bruce

AL Manager of the Year
1. Joe Maddon
2. Ron Gardenhire
3. Ozzie Guillen
4. Cito Gaston
5. Terry Francona

NL Manager of the Year
1. Lou Piniella
2. Jerry Manuel
3. Tony La Russa
4. Charlie Manuel
5. Joe Torre

[xbrokendownx]

dustin pedroia?

ok

[ForlrnPerplxity]

Updated again. The AL MVP is really hard to choose. Nick, any idea when you're gonna tally up the list for good?

[preppyak]

dustin pedroia?

ok
Note the location...and then the other picks...more Boston picks there than in any combo of two other people I've seen

[livethesounds]

haha, you shouldn't even count that dude from boston's. he has redsox players at the top of everything and doesn't even have lance berkman in the conversation of nlmvp, when if it wasn't for puljols being the entire cards team in the 2nd half of the year, he would have run away with it.

[SilenceBrokenTT]

How could anyone not put Joe Madden as AL Manager of the year?

[Metfan615]

Pedroia should be the AL MVP

[Scott Weber]

Pedroia should be the AL MVP
X-)

[xbrokendownx]

Pedroia should be the AL MVP



please enlighten us as to why this is true.

its hard to be the MVP of the league when you arent even the MVP of your own team

[64 % chance]

i'm confused as to how Chase Utley has more votes than Ryan Howard.

[Scott Weber]

i'm confused as to how Chase Utley has more votes than Ryan Howard.
his OPS is .915 and Howard's is .881?

[CubbyNick42]

i'm confused as to how Chase Utley has more votes than Ryan Howard.
Usually better players get more votes.

[Metfan615]

please enlighten us as to why this is true.

its hard to be the MVP of the league when you arent even the MVP of your own team
idk haha i just feel like had an amazing season for a second basemen and i feel like no one else really deserves it... maybe i'm just dumb haha

[Scott Weber]

idk haha i just feel like had an amazing season for a second basemen and i feel like no one else really deserves it... maybe i'm just dumb haha
:squint:

[CubbyNick42]

Anyone up in the air over AL MVP should refer to bigmike's case for Joe Mauer in the MLB thread.

[64 % chance]

his OPS is .915 and Howard's is .881?

This isn't who has the better stats award. Without Howards performance the Phillies would not be in the playoffs. Utley had an amazing first half, but slowly declined as the year went on. Neither one should win the award, but Howard was more valuable than Utley.

[Scott Weber]

This isn't who has the better stats award. Without Howards performance the Phillies would not be in the playoffs. Utley had an amazing first half, but slowly declined as the year went on. Neither one should win the award, but Howard was more valuable than Utley.
guess what, the games at the beginning of the year matter exactly the same as the ones at the end do.

[youkwalks]

please enlighten us as to why this is true.

its hard to be the MVP of the league when you arent even the MVP of your own team
Other stats will show you different so im cherry picking here, but Pedroia does have the highest WPA (winning percentage added) of anyone on the Red Sox according to fangrpahs.com

just sayin

[xbrokendownx]

eh whatever, Youk is the sox MVP in my opinion

[Scott Weber]

there is always one individual metric that will complete an argument between any 2 reasonably close players, no matter what 99% of all other ones will state.

Just sayin'.

[youkwalks]

I did say I was cherry picking

[Scott Weber]

I did say I was cherry picking
i know, but you know how numbers confuse floyd,.

[xbrokendownx]

:shrug:

[64 % chance]

guess what, the games at the beginning of the year matter exactly the same as the ones at the end do.

I forgot, because the pressure of winning games in the beginning of the year is exactly the same as when you're fighting for a playoff spot. But all that doesn't matter because Utley did statistically better than Howard, so that automatically makes him more valuable than Howard.

[xbrokendownx]

if he wouldve performed earlier in the year he wouldnt have had to perform as well late in the year

"clutch" or "pressure" is all based on opinion

[Scott Weber]

I forgot, because the pressure of winning games in the beginning of the year is exactly the same as when you're fighting for a playoff spot. But all that doesn't matter because Utley did statistically better than Howard, so that automatically makes him more valuable than Howard.
Yes, it does. Those wins are just as valuable as the wins at the end of the year. And Ryan Howard was so bad at the beginning of the year that he hurt his team. Without Chase during the first few months, would the team have even been in a spot to contend at the end of the year? He carried them, and his total yearly contribution to the team was far superior - not to mention how massively bigger his defensive contribution is.

[64 % chance]

if he wouldve performed earlier in the year he wouldnt have had to perform as well late in the year

"clutch" or "pressure" is all based on opinion

Are you saying that these awards should be based solely on performance regardless of how valuable you are to your team?

[Scott Weber]

Are you saying that these awards should be based solely on performance regardless of how valuable you are to your team?
Performance IS how valuable you are to your team.

[xbrokendownx]

how else can you be valuable to your team besides performance....?

[Chris M.]

Chase Utley's total win shares: 30

Ryan Howard's total win shares: 25

Hmmmmmm...

[64 % chance]

Yes, it does. Those wins are just as valuable as the wins at the end of the year. And Ryan Howard was so bad at the beginning of the year that he hurt his team. Without Chase during the first few months, would the team have even been in a spot to contend at the end of the year? He carried them, and his total yearly contribution to the team was far superior - not to mention how massively bigger his defensive contribution is.

Hurt his team? The last time they were under .500 was when they were 9-10 way back in April. To say that Chase Utley is the reason they were able to contend at the end of the year because of his production when Howard sucked is ridiculous. The season is way to long to say that. Utley's defensive contribution was so much bigger that he didn't have a higher fielding percentage then Howard.

[64 % chance]

how else can you be valuable to your team besides performance....?

Performance IS how valuable you are to your team.



My point is the time of year, both Howard and Utley had their bad streaks. Howard, however, stepped it up during the playoff chase.

[Chris M.]

Hurt his team? The last time they were under .500 was when they were 9-10 way back in April. To say that Chase Utley is the reason they were able to contend at the end of the year because of his production when Howard sucked is ridiculous. The season is way to long to say that. Utley's defensive contribution was so much bigger that he didn't have a higher fielding percentage then Howard.

Comparing fielding % between a second baseman and a first baseman is like comparing apples and oranges

Of course Howard is going to have a higher fielding % than Utley because he's going to be the one recording the out on nearly every ground ball out, while Utley will have the ball hit to him significantly less. More opportunities to have the ball means a better possibility of having a high fielding %

[Scott Weber]

Hurt his team? The last time they were under .500 was when they were 9-10 way back in April. To say that Chase Utley is the reason they were able to contend at the end of the year because of his production when Howard sucked is ridiculous. The season is way to long to say that. Utley's defensive contribution was so much bigger that he didn't have a higher fielding percentage then Howard.
Who cares what their record was? Look at Howard's numbers during that stretch. If they were winning, they were winning in spite of him. How many more wins would they have been getting if he wasn't on pace for 300 strikeouts while hitting below .200 for that stretch?

And oh my god, tell me you did not use fielding percentage as a method of worth between a second basemen and a fat 1st baseman. If you did, let me know and we will have a serious talk.

My point is the time of year, both Howard and Utley had their bad streaks. Howard, however, stepped it up during the playoff chase.
Good for Howard. His yearly contribution was significantly less than Utley's, and baseball is a year long game. Timing only matters to the media and fans. Statistically, they're all the same.

[64 % chance]

Who cares what their record was? Look at Howard's numbers during that stretch. If they were winning, they were winning in spite of him. How many more wins would they have been getting if he wasn't on pace for 300 strikeouts while hitting below .200 for that stretch?

And oh my god, tell me you did not use fielding percentage as a method of worth between a second basemen and a fat 1st baseman. If you did, let me know and we will have a serious talk.


Good for Howard. His yearly contribution was significantly less than Utley's, and baseball is a year long game. Timing only matters to the media and fans. Statistically, they're all the same.

The whole fielding percentage thing was meant to be sarcastic, since you brought up the fact that Utley defensive contributions were more than Howards, well no shit sherlock.

How many more wins would they have gotten? Who gives a shit, they won the NL East. They could have gotten 162 wins, it doesn't matter. My point is he got them the wins when they needed them to make the playoffs. If Howards production stayed around average, there's no way the phillies make the playoffs

And since you love statistics so much here's one for you. Howard produced 25% of the Phllies runs this year.

[64 % chance]

Comparing fielding % between a second baseman and a first baseman is like comparing apples and oranges

Of course Howard is going to have a higher fielding % than Utley because he's going to be the one recording the out on nearly every ground ball out, while Utley will have the ball hit to him significantly less. More opportunities to have the ball means a better possibility of having a high fielding %

exactly. I was being sarcastic. The other guy brought their fielding.

[Scott Weber]

The whole fielding percentage thing was meant to be sarcastic, since you brought up the fact that Utley defensive contributions were more than Howards, well no shit sherlock.

How many more wins would they have gotten? Who gives a shit, they won the NL East. They could have gotten 162 wins, it doesn't matter. My point is he got them the wins when they needed them to make the playoffs. If Howards production stayed around average, there's no way the phillies make the playoffs

And since you love statistics so much here's one for you. Howard produced 25% of the Phllies runs this year.
No shit Sherlock? It's a serious part to overall team contribution that you've thus far ignored in your comparisons between the two players.

I won't even bother with your "who gives a shit, they won the NL East" because it's idiotic, considering they can't control how other teams perform and has absolutely nothing to do with individual value.

Why don't you put that statistic in perspective with Utley? Anyone can bring in one statistic and make it sound great if you don't show a whole picture. But I'm assuming you just nabbed that off some blog and don't have the knowledge to explain that statistic (I know it, but do you?) or compare it to other sabermetric stats.

[64 % chance]

No shit Sherlock? It's a serious part to overall team contribution that you've thus far ignored in your comparisons between the two players.

I won't even bother with your "who gives a shit, they won the NL East" because it's idiotic, considering they can't control how other teams perform and has absolutely nothing to do with individual value.

Why don't you put that statistic in perspective with Utley? Anyone can bring in one statistic and make it sound great if you don't show a whole picture. But I'm assuming you just nabbed that off some blog and don't have the knowledge to explain that statistic (I know it, but do you?) or compare it to other sabermetric stats.


Idiotic? Half your argument is based on other peoples/teams performance (Saying Utley's performance is the reason the Phillies are in this situation comes to mind).

I don't have the knowledge to explain? It's pretty simple, you add the runs Howard scored and his RBIs minus his HRs.

Howard drove in about 40 more runs then Utley did. I'm pretty sure you win games by scoring runs, but according to you I don't know anything so I could be completely wrong.

I've ignored the fielding aspect because you can't compare the two. Also Howard's job is to bring in runs, not win Gold Gloves.

[Scott Weber]

Idiotic? Half your argument is based on other peoples/teams performance (Saying Utley's performance is the reason the Phillies are in this situation comes to mind).

I don't have the knowledge to explain? It's pretty simple, you add the runs Howard scored and his RBIs minus his HRs.

Howard drove in about 40 more runs then Utley did. I'm pretty sure you win games by scoring runs, but according to you I don't know anything so I could be completely wrong.

I've ignored the fielding aspect, but cause you can't compare the two. Also Howard's job is to bring in runs, not win Gold Gloves.
Thank you for confirming your extremely limited baseball knowledge.

Your first sentence doesn't even make sense. I'm directly correlating Utley's first half performance to the Phillies success. You saying they won the division, therefore making Howard's first month failure irrelevant is stupid. This reminds me of all the Titans winning because of/in spite of Vince Young used to have.

That's not how you calculate runs produced. You're pulling that stastistic from 2 stats that aren't individually based. Start with runs: What can Howard do? He can get on base. After that, it's out of his hands. It's up to his teammates to drive him in. It's a team stat. So why not use OBP% instead? How often he gets on base?

Howard OBP%: .339 (ouch)
Utley's OBP%: .380 (much better)

Now, go to RBI - another team stat. Howard's not driving in anybody but himself on home runs only if there's nobody on base. SO, how does Ryan Howard have so many RBIs? By the batters in front of him getting on base and into scoring position. This is where Chase Utley's superior OBP% comes into play. So really, you can partially thank Ryan Howard's high RBI total, not to Howard, but to Chase Utley and the rest of the Phillies who got on base for him. So yes, according to me you do know nothing, and it looks like I was right, and you were wrong.

LOL, Howard's job is to bring runners home, so now we should ignore defense when comparing the two? Yeah, Chase Utley is a great defensive 2nd basemen, but it's like, his job to be good there, and not Howard's, so it's like...a wash! Yeah, look who does their job better!!! Come on. Utley brings value to the team defensively. Howard does not. That should reflect in a MOST VALUABLE PLAYER award, should it not? You can compare the two - Utley has a + defensive rating and saves his team runs. Howard does not while parking his weak fielding ass at 1st base.

[xbrokendownx]

just give up dude.

[64 % chance]

Thank you for confirming your extremely limited baseball knowledge.

Your first sentence doesn't even make sense. I'm directly correlating Utley's first half performance to the Phillies success. You saying they won the division, therefore making Howard's first month failure irrelevant is stupid. This reminds me of all the Titans winning because of/in spite of Vince Young used to have.

That's not how you calculate runs produced. You're pulling that stastistic from 2 stats that aren't individually based. Start with runs: What can Howard do? He can get on base. After that, it's out of his hands. It's up to his teammates to drive him in. It's a team stat. So why not use OBP% instead? How often he gets on base?

Howard OBP%: .339 (ouch)
Utley's OBP%: .380 (much better)

Now, go to RBI - another team stat. Howard's not driving in anybody but himself on home runs only if there's nobody on base. SO, how does Ryan Howard have so many RBIs? By the batters in front of him getting on base and into scoring position. This is where Chase Utley's superior OBP% comes into play. So really, you can partially thank Ryan Howard's high RBI total, not to Howard, but to Chase Utley and the rest of the Phillies who got on base for him. So yes, according to me you do know nothing, and it looks like I was right, and you were wrong.

LOL, Howard's job is to bring runners home, so now we should ignore defense when comparing the two? Yeah, Chase Utley is a great defensive 2nd basemen, but it's like, his job to be good there, and not Howard's, so it's like...a wash! Yeah, look who does their job better!!! Come on. Utley brings value to the team defensively. Howard does not. That should reflect in a MOST VALUABLE PLAYER award, should it not? You can compare the two - Utley has a + defensive rating and saves his team runs. Howard does not while parking his weak fielding ass at 1st base.

No, you were directly correlating Utley's success to the Phillies being in contention for the playoffs (go look at your quote). Howard's terrible first month, FIRST MONTH. Don't factor in the remaining months, just the first one.

That's not how you calculate runs produced? really? Tell me, besides you yourself crossing home plate, or knocking someone else in (hit, walk, whatever) how else do you produce runs?

You were right? About what? Everything being said is opinion. Prove to me that Utley was on base for a majority of Howards RBIs and i'll admit I'm wrong.

So by your logic, Barry Bonds (post-steroids) was completely invaluable to his team because he was a terrible, terrible fielder. Right. Also, a majority of your (fielding) argument is assumption.

[xbrokendownx]

barry bonds has some of the greatest seasons in the history of hitting. he had a .609 (!!!!!!) OBP one season and he slugged over .800. think about that for a second!

bringing up barry bonds' fielding in this discussion is very pointless

[ForlrnPerplxity]

I'm going to keep my response brief, but if you only think Howard had 1 terrible month in April, you're kidding yourself.
April: .168/.298/.347
June: .234/.287/.439
August: .213/.328/.463

Anyway, your argument is horrible, so I'll just watch Scott and you go back and forth.

[CubbyNick42]

Also, I'm pretty sure invaluable is a synonym for priceless.

[preppyak]

barry bonds has some of the greatest seasons in the history of hitting. he had a .609 (!!!!!!) OBP one season and he slugged over .800. think about that for a second!

bringing up barry bonds' fielding in this discussion is very pointless
But...you could bring up his fielding in seasons where he wasn't off the charts...cause when he wasn't accounting for 6000 runs each season, he was definitely costing them runs with his fielding. Granted, I think any team would have gladly taken that chance, especially when he's getting a .609 OBP, but would any team want him if his OBP was .380 or .350?

To get back to that original argument, and this is something I am curious about, what's the statistic that kind of weighs defense against offense? I know there is something that weighs runs that a player accounts for against runs that their defense allows, and thus ranks them sort of as an all-around player, but I forget what it is exactly. I'm trying to get a bit more into the statistical side of baseball

[Scott Weber]

No, you were directly correlating Utley's success to the Phillies being in contention for the playoffs (go look at your quote). Howard's terrible first month, FIRST MONTH. Don't factor in the remaining months, just the first one.

That's not how you calculate runs produced? really? Tell me, besides you yourself crossing home plate, or knocking someone else in (hit, walk, whatever) how else do you produce runs?

You were right? About what? Everything being said is opinion. Prove to me that Utley was on base for a majority of Howards RBIs and i'll admit I'm wrong.

So by your logic, Barry Bonds (post-steroids) was completely invaluable to his team because he was a terrible, terrible fielder. Right.
The point I was making that you continue to miss is that the beginning of the year matters just as much as the end, so while you state that Howard was the reason they were where they were at the end of the year, Utley's performance is what allowed them to be in that situation in the first place. All games matter equally, no matter what you say - it's mathematical fact.

There are many ways of calculating runs created, none of which involve 2 statistics that the player himself DOES NOT CONTROL. Look at the runs produced definition, it even concedes this: runs produced is a teammate-dependent stat in that it includes Runs and RBIs, which are affected by which batters bat near a player in the batting order. Also, subtracting home runs seems logical from an individual perspective, but on a team level it double-counts runs that are not home runs. So, fail. Don't use that. There are better metrics to use (the first of which is OPS, which i've posted, since it's entirely individually based (Utley owns Howard in it)), but you can also use Runs Created, which I would imagine the two are very close in becauce RC really rewards HRs).

This stuff isn't opinion. It isn't opinion that runs and RBI are team stats, not individual stats. It's fact. They can't control whether or not they get driven in and they can't control who's on base when they come up. If you think that's opinion-based, you're wrong.

As for the last sentence, please don't be "that guy" in the argument. You know that's not what I'm saying, and even though you're pretty stupid, you're not that stupid. Bonds' massive offensive worth far outweighs his defense - but even with Bonds you have to factor that in. When it's close in comparing two players like Utley and Howard, you have to factor in defense - and on one side, you have a player who's excellent defensively at a high-impact defensive position, and on another you have a guy who would be a DH in the AL because he's bad at a low-impact position they can hide him at. Any argument that has the two very close based on offensive worth is immediately swayed to Utley because of the gigantic difference in defensive capability.

[64 % chance]

barry bonds has some of the greatest seasons in the history of hitting. he had a .609 (!!!!!!) OBP one season and he slugged over .800. think about that for a second!

bringing up barry bonds' fielding in this discussion is very pointless

I never would have if he didn't even attempt to compare a 1st baseman to a 2nd basemen. 1st basemen are notorious for being terrible fielders. So why even try?

I'm going to keep my response brief, but if you only think Howard had 1 terrible month in April, you're kidding yourself.
April: .168/.298/.347
June: .234/.287/.439
August: .213/.328/.463

Anyway, your argument is horrible, so I'll just watch Scott and you go back and forth.

I never said first month, i said the first half of the year. My argument is absolutely terrible you're right. If it was so terrible why would he even waste his time?

Also, I'm pretty sure invaluable is a synonym for priceless.

oh well, i'm not an english major. you get the point.

[WFUJerseyJon]

AL MVP and NL Cy Young are the only two awards I think have any controversy. All the others pretty much have clear cut winners. That being said I think it should be Morneau and Lincecum.

[LeftWideOpen]

2) Let's keep all the debate to the MLB thread; this is just for selections. The ONLY posts that should appear in this thread are your first one with your initial awards ballot, and once you decide to change it, just update your original post and bump the thread by posting "updated."

I'll keep updating this first post with the overall tally to date. Again, NO DEBATES HERE. Keep it in the MLB thread.


this thread went well.

[StandMyBrothers]

and I called *edited* a douchebag for calling you guys out for not giving any consideration in the 2-5 spot in any AL ROTY chase to Mike Aviles...

[64 % chance]

The point I was making that you continue to miss is that the beginning of the year matters just as much as the end, so while you state that Howard was the reason they were where they were at the end of the year, Utley's performance is what allowed them to be in that situation in the first place. All games matter equally, no matter what you say - it's mathematical fact.

There are many ways of calculating runs created, none of which involve 2 statistics that the player himself DOES NOT CONTROL. Look at the runs produced definition, it even concedes this: runs produced is a teammate-dependent stat in that it includes Runs and RBIs, which are affected by which batters bat near a player in the batting order. Also, subtracting home runs seems logical from an individual perspective, but on a team level it double-counts runs that are not home runs. So, fail. Don't use that. There are better metrics to use (the first of which is OPS, which i've posted, since it's entirely individually based (Utley owns Howard in it)), but you can also use Runs Created, which I would imagine the two are very close in becauce RC really rewards HRs).

This stuff isn't opinion. It isn't opinion that runs and RBI are team stats, not individual stats. It's fact. They can't control whether or not they get driven in and they can't control who's on base when they come up. If you think that's opinion-based, you're wrong.

As for the last sentence, please don't be "that guy" in the argument. You know that's not what I'm saying, and even though you're pretty stupid, you're not that stupid. Bonds' massive offensive worth far outweighs his defense - but even with Bonds you have to factor that in. When it's close in comparing two players like Utley and Howard, you have to factor in defense - and on one side, you have a player who's excellent defensively at a high-impact defensive position, and on another you have a guy who would be a DH in the AL because he's bad at a low-impact position they can hide him at. Any argument that has the two very close based on offensive worth is immediately swayed to Utley because of the gigantic difference in defensive capability.

My point which you continue to miss is that you're saying one player, ONE player is the sole reason for the position they are in now. And you call me stupid.

What I meant by opinion is the whole argument over who's more valuable is opinion. If it wasn't, Pujols would have won the MVP the year Howard did because he had better individual stats (which according to you is more important), but Howard was more valuable overall, not just statistically. which is exactly what i'm trying to say here. Howard has been more valuable to the Phillies than Chase Utley has this year. And you can show me all the statistics you want, but this argument is pure opinion.

I still find the fielding irrelevent because Howard can not physically play another other position other than first.

[Scott Weber]

My point which you continue to miss is that you're saying one player, ONE player is the sole reason for the position they are in now. And you call me stupid.

What I meant by opinion is the whole argument over who's more valuable is opinion. If it wasn't, Pujols would have won the MVP the year Howard did because he had better individual stats (which according to you is more important), but Howard was more valuable overall, not just statistically. which is exactly what i'm trying to say here. Howard has been more valuable to the Phillies than Chase Utley has this year. And you can show me all the statistics you want, but this argument is pure opinion.

I still find the fielding irrelevent because Howard can not physically play another other position other than first.
Oh god. Talk about missing the point completely. You started this whole thing off by saying that they wouldn't be there without Howard. I provided a counter that said his late season surge wouldn't have been meaningful if Utley wasn't there to carry them when Howard sucked ass early on. That's it. Drop it. The point is that all games matter the same, not whatever moronic conclusion you've come to that I'm so convinced that Chase Utley is the entire Phillies team and single-handedly lifted them to glory. Give me a great.

Who's more valuable is debateable, but we're not arguing about how the voters are going to vote, are we? We're casting our own votes, which we can see with a clearer head because we're without bias (well, at least some of us are) and know more effective ways to calculate a player's worth than with stuff like runs and RBI (well, at least some of us do).

The fact that Ryan Howard is fat and can't play anywhere else but first makes him less valuable overall. Period. That's not irrelevant.

So you've completely retreated away from all statistical evidence or any real argument to say "it's opinion." Ok. It's my opinion that you got in over your head and can't hold your weight in an argument.

[ForlrnPerplxity]

How in the world do you determine MVP if it's not by overall production and statistics? It's not based on "feeling" or "opinion"; it's a fact based argument and nothing else. The only opinion presides in what statistics to use, and you obviously fail to determine which is more important.

If a player has better overall statistics then he deserves it over a player who doesn't. It's that simple. There is no other type of argument that you can bring into the situation to try to deem a player as more valuable to a team with inferior overall production/statistics. Any other argument doesn't make sense, which is why you sound incredibly naive.

[64 % chance]

Oh god. Talk about missing the point completely. You started this whole thing off by saying that they wouldn't be there without Howard. I provided a counter that said his late season surge wouldn't have been meaningful if Utley wasn't there to carry them when Howard sucked ass early on. That's it. Drop it. The point is that all games matter the same, not whatever moronic conclusion you've come to that I'm so convinced that Chase Utley is the entire Phillies team and single-handedly lifted them to glory. Give me a great.

Who's more valuable is debateable, but we're not arguing about how the voters are going to vote, are we? We're casting our own votes, which we can see with a clearer head because we're without bias (well, at least some of us are) and know more effective ways to calculate a player's worth than with stuff like runs and RBI (well, at least some of us do).

The fact that Ryan Howard is fat and can't play anywhere else but first makes him less valuable overall. Period. That's not irrelevant.

So you've completely retreated away from all statistical evidence or any real argument to say "it's opinion." Ok. It's my opinion that you got in over your head and can't hold your weight in an argument.

No, I said that Howard stepped up his production during the playoff chase.

You're opinion is Utley is more valuable and my opinion is Howard is more valuable. How you can say i'm wrong and you're right is beyond me.

This statement is just asinine.

No, i just don't obsess over stats like you do. I gave you stats, and why I believe those stats are why Howard is more valuable. You countered with your own. There's no rulebook that says your stats mean a guy is more valuable.



How in the world do you determine MVP if it's not by overall production and statistics? It's not based on "feeling" or "opinion"; it's a fact based argument and nothing else. The only opinion presides in what statistics to use, and you obviously fail to determine which is more important.

If a player has better overall statistics then he deserves it over a player who doesn't. It's that simple. There is no other type of argument that you can bring into the situation to try to deem a player as more valuable to a team with inferior overall production/statistics. Any other argument doesn't make sense, which is why you sound incredibly naive.


Then explain why Howard won the 2006 MVP over Pujols.

[Scott Weber]

No, I said that Howard stepped up his production during the playoff chase.

You're opinion is Utley is more valuable and my opinion is Howard is more valuable. How you can say i'm wrong and you're right is beyond me.

This statement is just asinine.

No, i just don't obsess over stats like you do. I gave you stats, and why I believe those stats are why Howard is more valuable. You countered with your own. There's no rulebook that says your stats mean a guy is more valuable.

Then explain why Howard won the 2006 MVP over Pujols.
I have an opinion I can back up with plenty of statistics and rational thought. You, on the other hand, have your opinions. You can have the opinion that George Bush was a great president, you'd be correct in your own mind, but are you really correct? No.

Please explain to me how it's asinine that Ryan Howard does not lose value compared to Chase Utley when you consider that Howard can only play one position? If Howard could put up the same offensive numbers, but be a slick-fielding shortstop, would that not increase his value by a significant amount?

Obsessing over stats. Haha. It's how we understand the game. Baseball lends itself perfectly to stats, more so than any other sport because of the massive sample size we're presented with.




And guess what - the voters are wrong. Often. We're here to discuss who deserves it - not which players won it or will win it. Howard will likely finish in front of Utley in the MVP voting because the media gets swept up in the end of the year performance, no matter how bad the first half is. That's why Delgado is in the discussion as well.

[64 % chance]

I have an opinion I can back up with plenty of statistics and rational thought. You, on the other hand, have your opinions. You can have the opinion that George Bush was a great president, you'd be correct in your own mind, but are you really correct? No.

Please explain to me how it's asinine that Ryan Howard does not lose value compared to Chase Utley when you consider that Howard can only play one position? If Howard could put up the same offensive numbers, but be a slick-fielding shortstop, would that not increase his value by a significant amount?

Obsessing over stats. Haha. It's how we understand the game. Baseball lends itself perfectly to stats, more so than any other sport because of the massive sample size we're presented with.




And guess what - the voters are wrong. Often. We're here to discuss who deserves it - not which players won it or will win it. Howard will likely finish in front of Utley in the MVP voting because the media gets swept up in the end of the year performance, no matter how bad the first half is. That's why Delgado is in the discussion as well.



You're right, nothing I said made any sense whatsoever and everything you said is absolute truth.


Are you sure you aren't God? Cause you sure are acting like it. If you're right about everything then why don't we just let you decide who wins all the awards? All the baseball "experts" are wrong, but you are some how correct about everything. Amazing.

[Scott Weber]

You're right, nothing I said made any sense whatsoever and everything you said is absolute truth.


Are you sure you aren't God? Cause you sure are acting like it. If you're right about everything then why don't we just let you decide who wins all the awards? All the baseball "experts" are wrong, but you are some how correct about everything. Amazing.
Steps to admitting defeat in an argument:

1) Presenting stats
2) Getting owned by better stats
3) Failing to understand simple logic
4) Backtracking
5) Saying everything is just opinion
6) Get mad
7) Tell the other person he's a know-it-all
8) Refuse to acknowledge final points you've been avoiding the entire argument




Baseball writers are not "experts." They still think wins are a correct way to evaluate a pitcher. They are just those with the votes. Baseball writers are some of the dumbest people alive. If we let real experts determine who won these awards, then we'd actually have some correct winners and Bartolo Colon would never have a Cy Young award.

[+thecalisonme]

stats shmats, Pedroia MVP had similar stats to Ichiro when he won it a few years ago and all the other canidates are from losing teams or missed a chunk of time down the stretch

[Scott Weber]

stats shmats, Pedroia MVP had similar stats to Ichiro when he won it a few years ago and all the other canidates are from losing teams or missed a chunk of time down the stretch
and Ichiro didn't deserve it that year either. but that year Ichiro had a ton of steals, played incredible defensem and his team set the record for most wins in a season.

[+thecalisonme]

im just sayin the fact that the twins didnt make the playoffs mauer prolly wont win being a catcher in minnesota isnt that sexy

[WFUJerseyJon]

I honestly think you need to mention K-Rod in the AL MVP discussion. Not saying he should necessarily win it, but you can't argue against him being one of the most valuable players to any team this year. He ensured so many wins for that team.

[Scott Weber]

:blink:

[Scott Weber]

I honestly think you need to mention K-Rod in the AL MVP discussion. Not saying he should necessarily win it, but you can't argue against him being one of the most valuable players to any team this year. He ensured so many wins for that team.
Why? Because the angels had a unusually high amount of save opportunities? He also blew like 6 saves and allowed far too many baserunners. He shouldn't even be in the Cy Young discussion, let alone MVP.

[+thecalisonme]

I honestly think you need to mention K-Rod in the AL MVP discussion. Not saying he should necessarily win it, but you can't argue against him being one of the most valuable players to any team this year. He ensured so many wins for that team.
false he sucked a fat one this year, no saves more than an inning, 12 less than an inning, most useless stat ever

[xbrokendownx]

I honestly think you need to mention K-Rod in the AL MVP discussion. Not saying he should necessarily win it, but you can't argue against him being one of the most valuable players to any team this year. He ensured so many wins for that team.



:nono:

[WFUJerseyJon]

Why? Because the angels had a unusually high amount of save opportunities? He also blew like 6 saves and allowed far too many baserunners. He shouldn't even be in the Cy Young discussion, let alone MVP.

I didn't say Cy Young. If Cliff Lee isn't unanimous it'll be a sin. Can't say he wasn't valuable to that team. Put somebody like Billy Wagner in that role and I guarantee he blows more than 6 and the Angels don't win as many games.

false he sucked a fat one this year, no saves more than an inning, 12 less than an inning, most useless stat ever

While I agree the no saves more than an inning is a knock, if anything I think the 12 less than an inning are a credit to proving the Angles needed him (read: value) to keep those wins because nobody else could do it.

:nono:

Good argument.

It's called the Most Valuable Player, not Player of the Year, for a reason. The Hank Aaron Award is for the best offensive player, MVP is for more than that.

[xbrokendownx]

ugh it IS a good argument because weve gone into this a million times

Krod was MAYBE the 5th best closer this year. FACT.

how can he be the most valuable player of the ENTIRE LEAGUE!?

[CubbyNick42]

I honestly think you need to mention K-Rod in the AL MVP discussion. Not saying he should necessarily win it, but you can't argue against him being one of the most valuable players to any team this year. He ensured so many wins for that team.
He's not even the best reliever on his team.

[CubbyNick42]

I didn't say Cy Young. If Cliff Lee isn't unanimous it'll be a sin. Can't say he wasn't valuable to that team. Put somebody like Billy Wagner in that role and I guarantee he blows more than 6 and the Angels don't win as many games.
How?? Wagner's numbers are better by a long shot.

[Scott Weber]

I didn't say Cy Young. If Cliff Lee isn't unanimous it'll be a sin. Can't say he wasn't valuable to that team. Put somebody like Billy Wagner in that role and I guarantee he blows more than 6 and the Angels don't win as many games.



While I agree the no saves more than an inning is a knock, if anything I think the 12 less than an inning are a credit to proving the Angles needed him (read: value) to keep those wins because nobody else could do it.



Good argument.

It's called the Most Valuable Player, not Player of the Year, for a reason. The Hank Aaron Award is for the best offensive player, MVP is for more than that.
Seriously, you are going to get murdered on this argument because we've done it a million times and every time people walk away destroyed.

So your argument is that "he's not Billy Wagner, therefore he's most valuable." Rivera, Papelbon, Soria, Lidge, etc etc - all those closers had better years than K-Rod. But K-Rod gets the nod because his team can't go into the 9th with a lead bigger than 3 runs. It's just stupid. His stats alone don't merit it - there are a number of relievers who could have done what he did, and in the process walk less batters and not blow as many saves.

[WFUJerseyJon]

ugh it IS a good argument because weve gone into this a million times

Krod was MAYBE the 5th best closer this year. FACT.

how can he be the most valuable player of the ENTIRE LEAGUE!?

I'm sorry I don't read every goddamn thread in the sports forum.

That's fine, but Joakim Soria saved less games and didn't come close to the playoffs. He very well might have pitched better, I won't disagree, but you can't say K-Rod wasn't crucial to the Angels' season.

Because he played one of the most pivotal roles on the best team in the league.

He's not even the best reliever on his team.

Really? Who do you think is, Shields?

How?? Wagner's numbers are better by a long shot.

Wagner blows way more games. If I had to choose between the two I'd definitely go K-Rod.

[xbrokendownx]

just because he was semi- crucial to the angels season doesnt mean hes the most valuable player of the whole fucking league

and joakim soria saved less games because of his TEAM. KRod gets save chances because the angels play a ton of close games

[WFUJerseyJon]

Seriously, you are going to get murdered on this argument because we've done it a million times and every time people walk away destroyed.

So your argument is that "he's not Billy Wagner, therefore he's most valuable." Rivera, Papelbon, Soria, Lidge, etc etc - all those closers had better years than K-Rod. But K-Rod gets the nod because his team can't go into the 9th with a lead bigger than 3 runs. It's just stupid. His stats alone don't merit it - there are a number of relievers who could have done what he did, and in the process walk less batters and not blow as many saves.

I'm not even saying he deserves it, all I said was he should be in the discussion. Sorry I didn't know it had been so rehashed.

And I didn't say because he wasn't Billy Wagner and that's why he got it. First of all throw out Lidge because he's in the NL. Second of all, I'm a Yankees fan. I don't even like the Angels. All I was saying is you can't discount the value of K-Rod to that team, and that he should be in the discussion.

[Scott Weber]

I'm sorry I don't read every goddamn thread in the sports forum.

That's fine, but Joakim Soria saved less games and didn't come close to the playoffs. He very well might have pitched better, I won't disagree, but you can't say K-Rod wasn't crucial to the Angels' season.

Because he played one of the most pivotal roles on the best team in the league.



Really? Who do you think is, Shields?

Wagner blows way more games. If I had to choose between the two I'd definitely go K-Rod.
Saves are something out of K-Rod's hands. The Angels had more save opportunities this year than any team in MLB history. So....therefore, K-Rod deserves MVP consideration, because he's their closer, on that team, in this year. No.

[CubbyNick42]

Really? Who do you think is, Shields?
K-Rod: 68.1 IP, 2.24 ERA, 1.29 WHIP, .215 BAA, 2.26 K/BB
Arredondo: 61.0 IP, 1.62 ERA, 1.05 WHIP, .190 BAA, 2.50 K/BB

Wagner blows way more games. If I had to choose between the two I'd definitely go K-Rod.
Which would be dumb, considering Wagner allowed 3.6 fewer baserunners per 9 innings pitched.

[WFUJerseyJon]

just because he was semi- crucial to the angels season doesnt mean hes the most valuable player of the whole fucking league

and joakim soria saved less games because of his TEAM. KRod gets save chances because the angels play a ton of close games

I realize this. But K-Rod shouldn't be penalized because he played on the best team. IMP the MVP should go to the most valuable player, not necessarily the one with the best stats. However in this case the stats lend credence to K-Rod's value. Again, all I said was he deserves to be in the discussion. Why is that such a crime against God?

[Scott Weber]

I'm not even saying he deserves it, all I said was he should be in the discussion. Sorry I didn't know it had been so rehashed.

And I didn't say because he wasn't Billy Wagner and that's why he got it. First of all throw out Lidge because he's in the NL. Second of all, I'm a Yankees fan. I don't even like the Angels. All I was saying is you can't discount the value of K-Rod to that team, and that he should be in the discussion.
And all I'm saying is that you're wrong. K-Rod isn't that great of a closer and saves are a worthless statistic determined by situation, instead of personal performance. They also only throw 60-80 innings and their value and contribution is minimal. There is one reliever who should have ever been in a Cy Young discussion (not MVP) and that's Eric Gagne in 2003. No reliever should ever, EVER be in an MVP discussion. That award belongs to players who play every inning of every single game, or in rare cases, provide a guaranteed win every 5 days.

[xbrokendownx]

I realize this. But K-Rod shouldn't be penalized because he played on the best team. IMP the MVP should go to the most valuable player, not necessarily the one with the best stats. However in this case the stats lend credence to K-Rod's value. Again, all I said was he deserves to be in the discussion. Why is that such a crime against God?



because he DOESNT deserve to be in the discussion. plain and simple.

[CubbyNick42]

No starter should be in the discussion, so it would be lunacy to discuss guys who throw less than half as many innings.

[preppyak]

Rodriguez may have had his worst season in terms of statistics

Despite having the close to the fewest innings of his career (68.3), he allowed the most hits of his career, walked his 2nd most, had the fewest strikeouts by almost 20, had a mid-range ERA, and had his highest WHIP.

If you give it to him this year (despite averaging less than an inning per appearance), you technically have to give it to him in 04 and 06 as well. He's below average in almost every category for his career.

2008 - 68.3IP, 54H, 77SO, 34BB, 1.288WHIP
AVG - 75.0IP, 50H, 97SO, 33BB, 1.114WHIP

Edit: Its the only season of his career he average less than 1IP per appearance, and most of his stats are about 20% off than when he finished 4th back in 2004

[xbrokendownx]

but HE WAS SO CLUTCH!

[ForlrnPerplxity]

Then explain why Howard won the 2006 MVP over Pujols.
Howard didn't deserve it over Pujols, and I'm not going to rehash that argument I had with a couple people on here. Just because a player wins it doesn't mean he deserves it. As Scott already said, a lot of writers who get to vote don't know what the hell they're doing.

[ForlrnPerplxity]

Somebody please explain to me why the player with the best overall contribution/production/stats isn't the Most Valuable Player. Please?

[Scott Weber]

Somebody please explain to me why the player with the best overall contribution/production/stats isn't the Most Valuable Player. Please?
It's just opinion dude, what are you GOD???

[preppyak]

Somebody please explain to me why the player with the best overall contribution/production/stats isn't the Most Valuable Player. Please?
Cause it says "Valuable", which is a subjective term....if it was the Statstically Best Player...it'd be a completely different award.

I find the award silly in every league, because "valuable" isn't defined by the league, and you are asking a bunch of sports writers (all who have their grudges and their favorites) to determine something long term when their job is to focus in the immediate. I would not be stunned to see Manny or CC get a bunch of votes simply because so many would lose focus

[+thecalisonme]

Somebody please explain to me why the player with the best overall contribution/production/stats isn't the Most Valuable Player. Please?
if arod wasnt on the rangers that year they still woulda been in last place, wheres the value there

[ForlrnPerplxity]

It's just opinion dude, what are you GOD???
hahaha

Cause it says "Valuable", which is a subjective term....if it was the Statstically Best Player...it'd be a completely different award.

I find the award silly in every league, because "valuable" isn't defined by the league, and you are asking a bunch of sports writers (all who have their grudges and their favorites) to determine something long term when their job is to focus in the immediate. I would not be stunned to see Manny or CC get a bunch of votes simply because so many would lose focus
I understand that valuable is a subjective term, but if you understand which statistics truly relate to a player's sole contribution (not runs, RBI's, or strictly looking at HR's), there shouldn't be any debate that the player with the overall best contribution/stats had the most value to his team. There are no other elements to look at in determining value, unless you want to make silly statements like players putting up the bulk of their stats "when it matters" in September.

[ForlrnPerplxity]

if arod wasnt on the rangers that year they still woulda been in last place, wheres the value there
In that case, you're faulting a player because of the production of the other guys around him, which is out of that players control. Just because a guy plays on a losing team doesn't mean that that his production wasn't more valuable to that team's record, despite not making the playoffs.

[preppyak]

I understand that valuable is a subjective term, but if you understand which statistics truly relate to a player's sole contribution (not runs, RBI's, or strictly looking at HR's), there shouldn't be any debate that the player with the overall best contribution/stats had the most value to his team. There are no other elements to look at in determining value, unless you want to make silly statements like players putting up the bulk of their stats "when it matters" in September.
That I see...but the question becomes how do you value player by position as well. Does a power hitter outweigh a great fielder with decent fielding #'s? Does a pitcher, who can be responsible for as many wins as some hitters, have more value than a catcher or shortstop who plays every day?

If there was an MVP of the 2nd half of the NL, hands down its CC Sabathia...in terms of statistics and value to the team, its hard to argue anyone was more important. If he had put up the same gaudy #'s he did in the 2nd half all season...does he get the NL MVP? Or does he only get the Cy Young?

I think its just very unclear what valuable means, thus why people assume that September means more than April statistically

[64 % chance]

Steps to admitting defeat in an argument:

1) Presenting stats
2) Getting owned by better stats
3) Failing to understand simple logic
4) Backtracking
5) Saying everything is just opinion
6) Get mad
7) Tell the other person he's a know-it-all
8) Refuse to acknowledge final points you've been avoiding the entire argument






Baseball writers are not "experts." They still think wins are a correct way to evaluate a pitcher. They are just those with the votes. Baseball writers are some of the dumbest people alive. If we let real experts determine who won these awards, then we'd actually have some correct winners and Bartolo Colon would never have a Cy Young award.


Lol. K.

[Scott Weber]

Lol. K.
That's what I thought.

See ya.

[64 % chance]

That's what I thought.

See ya.

hahahhahaha. Tell me, do you go to bed every night thinkingbyour amazing by supposedly winning an argument that is purely opinion?

Or do you jerk off to the latest baseball encyclopedia and gobto bed?

[rcrook]

64% chance...thats the percentage i give you for not succeeding at life.

[Scott Weber]

hahahhahaha. Tell me, do you go to bed every night thinkingbyour amazing by supposedly winning an argument that is purely opinion?

Or do you jerk off to the latest baseball encyclopedia and gobto bed?
No, but I do read baseball prospectus books and other statistical analysis books that help me understand the game better. I happen to enjoy statistics and actually knowing what I'm talking about about a game I love. Unlike you, who probably bros out tough with his jersey boys and then slams his face on a keyboard and throws out insults when he can't hold his own weight in a debate. If you actually had a solid argument, you wouldn't be resorting to saying "it's just opinion" and name-calling.

[rcrook]

Yo Weebs I didn't know you beat off to Bill James everynight.

[64 % chance]

No, but I do read baseball prospectus books and other statistical analysis books that help me understand the game better. I happen to enjoy statistics and actually knowing what I'm talking about about a game I love. Unlike you, who probably bros out tough with his jersey boys and then slams his face on a keyboard and throws out insults when he can't hold his own weight in a debate. If you actually had a solid argument, you wouldn't be resorting to saying "it's just opinion" and name-calling.

Lol. K.

[Scott Weber]

Lol. K.
hahahhahaha. Tell me, do you go to bed every night thinkingbyour amazing by supposedly winning an argument that is purely opinion?

Or do you jerk off to the latest baseball encyclopedia and gobto bed?

[preppyak]

Lol. K.
Lol. K.
Both of those responses were chances to point out what statistical background or baseball knowledge you have...apparently the answer is that of a 15yr old girl

[rcrook]

where did he go? i hope he'll BRB.

[64 % chance]

64% chance...thats the percentage i give you for not succeeding at life.

Original.

hahahhahaha. Tell me, do you go to bed every night thinkingbyour amazing by supposedly winning an argument that is purely opinion?

Or do you jerk off to the latest baseball encyclopedia and gobto bed?

No, I read books so I can own n00bs in MVP debates. all while thinking I know morebthan people who cover baseball as their life.

[64 % chance]

Both of those responses were chances to point out what statistical background or baseball knowledge you have...apparently the answer is that of a 15yr old girl

both of those responses were tobstatements that had nothing to do with baseball

[xbrokendownx]

what in the fuck is a tobstatement

[WFUJerseyJon]

No, I read books so I can own n00bs in MVP debates. all while thinking I know morebthan people who cover baseball as their life.

hahahahahaha

[rcrook]

hey dumbass the space bar is the biggest key on the keyboard press that instead of B

[Scott Weber]

No, I read books so I can own n00bs in MVP debates. all while thinking I know morebthan people who cover baseball as their life.
what is all this stuff about? drunk?

have you ever sat down with a baseball writer? they're usually really old school. they write pieces about clubhouse chemistry, veteran leadership, batting averages, and wins - because that's what the casual fans want. these are the guys who vote for the MVP award. half of them don't know what OPS is they'd stare at you blankly if you said the words win share, tRA, or VORP. They cover baseball for the average fan, someone like you, who has "opinions" that are usually wrong. They don't care to know the game deeply because that's not what their readers want. the guys who know their stuff, know the in-depth statistics, these are the guys who are getting front office jobs, building a bigger following as people finally start to change how they view baseball, and someday...you'll get there too.

[64 % chance]

what in the fuck is a tobstatement

hey dumbass the space bar is the biggest key on the keyboard press that instead of B

what is all this stuff about? drunk?

have you ever sat down with a baseball writer? they're usually really old school. they write pieces about clubhouse chemistry, veteran leadership, batting averages, and wins - because that's what the casual fans want. these are the guys who vote for the MVP award. half of them don't know what OPS is they'd stare at you blankly if you said the words win share, tRA, or VORP. They cover baseball for the average fan, someone like you, who has "opinions" that are usually wrong. They don't care to know the game deeply because that's not what their readers want. the guys who know their stuff, know the in-depth statistics, these are the guys who are getting front office jobs, building a bigger following as people finally start to change how they view baseball, and someday...you'll get there too.

iPhone

[WFUJerseyJon]

iPhone

the handy dandy tool for people who have lives and pull themselves away from their computer screen.

[Scott Weber]

the handy dandy tool for people who have lives and pull themselves away from their computer screen.
Sick burn from a guy who has 6500 posts!

[preppyak]

both of those responses were tobstatements that had nothing to do with baseball
In the 2nd one, he told you exactly where he gets his information, and how he informs himself about his decisions. Where do you get your information from, how do you inform your arguments?

[Scott Weber]

In the 2nd one, he told you exactly where he gets his information, and how he informs himself about his decisions. Where do you get your information from?
Writers like Skip Bayless who then in turn vote for the MVP award.

[WFUJerseyJon]

Sick burn from a guy who has 6500 posts!

I don't even know what that means. Is 6,500 too many or too few?

[Scott Weber]

I don't even know what that means. Is 6,500 too many or too few?
haha. k-rod for mvp.

[Two Headed Girl]

haha. k-rod for mvp.
He was the Red Sox MVP in the ALDS.

[WFUJerseyJon]

haha. k-rod for mvp.

Haha, yea, you're right. I'm an idiot for thinking I could voice an idea or suggestion in a FORUM.

[Scott Weber]

Haha, yea, you're right. I'm an idiot for thinking I could voice an idea or suggestion in a FORUM.
Relaxxxxxxxxxxxx, dude. Don't you post here enough to know that debates are frequent and opinions are grounds for debate? (you didn't even respond to all the points against it anyways...)

[preppyak]

I don't even know what that means. Is 6,500 too many or too few?
Depends, if any of those are general forum posts, its too many...at least in terms of your mind melting into nothingness

[WFUJerseyJon]

Relaxxxxxxxxxxxx, dude. Don't you post here enough to know that debates are frequent and opinions are grounds for debate? (you didn't even respond to all the points against it anyways...)

I was finishing up at work and headed home. And then I kinda just forgot about it. I'm really not very passionate about K-Rod so I really didn't care that much. I was kinda just playing Devil's Advocate.

[WFUJerseyJon]

Depends, if any of those are general forum posts, its too many...at least in terms of your mind melting into nothingness

A lot of them are from the work thread (RIP). I had like 1600 when I graduated this past May then started posting like crazy when I started my job.

[preppyak]

Relaxxxxxxxxxxxx, dude. Don't you post here enough to know that debates are frequent and opinions are grounds for debate? (you didn't even respond to all the points against it anyways...)
Is the nice way of saying that the regulars can be absolute assholes when their opinions differ, and that when things finally calm down, debate continues. Though, the disintegrations were way more fun when Still_Life and Asianxcore were around

[Scott Weber]

Is the nice way of saying that the regulars can be absolute assholes when their opinions differ, and that when things finally calm down, debate continues. Though, the disintegrations were way more fun when Still_Life and Asianxcore were around
i debate harshly and bluntly, i don't think anybody would deny that I'm extremely aggressive when I debate, but when people run away or don't address the points I make, then I get a little vindictive because it shows they can't hold their own.

[wroteurname]

How could anyone not put Joe Madden as AL Manager of the year?
Yeah Rivers Cuomo really brought those kids places.
http://joshhighland.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/pinkertonframes.jpg

[WFUJerseyJon]

Yeah Rivers Cuomo really brought those kids places.
http://joshhighland.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/pinkertonframes.jpg

Your avatar looks like what Fred McGriff in the Tom Emanski commercial would look like if he changed hats.

[wroteurname]

Your avatar looks like what Fred McGriff in the Tom Emanski commercial would look like if he changed hats.
It's moron BJ Upton wearing his hat like moron BJ Upton.

[WFUJerseyJon]

It's moron BJ Upton wearing his hat like moron BJ Upton.

Haha I thought so but I can't pass up an opportunity to mention Tom Emanski.

[64 % chance]

In the 2nd one, he told you exactly where he gets his information, and how he informs himself about his decisions. Where do you get your information from, how do you inform your arguments?

I get my information from myself and what I see, i don't obsess over baseball books .



Haha, yea, you're right. I'm an idiot for thinking I could voice an idea or suggestion in a FORUM.

Come on man, why the hell would you think you can voice your opinion without first memorizing the latest baseball encyclopedia.

[Scott Weber]

I get my information from myself and what I see, i don't obsess over baseball books .





Come on man, why the hell would you think you can voice your opinion without first memorizing the latest baseball encyclopedia.
Hahahaha. I hardly consider reading 15 pages a day while I take a dump is obsessing over baseball books.

It takes me as long to look up one of my fancy new space-out gizmo stats as it does for you to look up batting average. We just go to different websites.

[xbrokendownx]

so its ok to voice your own opinions but you guys get up in arms when you get criticized for doing so? seems fair.

[Flags of Dawn]

Are you saying that these awards should be based solely on performance regardless of how valuable you are to your team?
this is quite possibly the most obvious and dumbest statement i've read in this forum.

[Flags of Dawn]

also, i love when people get owned by facts and knowledge, and play it off like they have better things to do than figure those things out.

[64 % chance]

this is quite possibly the most obvious and dumbest statement i've read in this forum.

and you obviously lack reading comprehension or failed to read the following posts to see what i meant by that.

[Flags of Dawn]

and you obviously lack reading comprehension or failed to read the following posts to see what i meant by that.
nah. nice try with the whole backtracking thing though. after that many replies and responses, its a little late for it now

[64 % chance]

also, i love when people get owned by facts and knowledge, and play it off like they have better things to do than figure those things out.

yea, i'm going with you lack any reading comprehension.

[64 % chance]

nah. nice try with the whole backtracking thing though. after that many replies and responses, its a little late for it now

lol. i forgot man, you know exactly what i'm thinking at all times. just like i'm a bandwagon fan. lol.

[Flags of Dawn]

lol. k.

[xbrokendownx]

i just think its hilarious that you keep bringing up "having your own opinion" but then are suddenly suprised when people criticize it, as if they themselves dont possess that same right

[64 % chance]

Hahahaha. I hardly consider reading 15 pages a day while I take a dump is obsessing over baseball books.

It takes me as long to look up one of my fancy new space-out gizmo stats as it does for you to look up batting average. We just go to different websites.

I don't go to any websites. I follow the Phillies so i know pretty much all the major stats. As for the rest of the league I don't know w/o looking it up, nor do I care about how other teams players do.

[Flags of Dawn]

lol. i forgot man, you know exactly what i'm thinking at all times. just like i'm a bandwagon fan. lol.
lol. because you are. lol.

[Scott Weber]

I don't go to any websites. I follow the Phillies so i know pretty much all the major stats. As for the rest of the league I don't know w/o looking it up, nor do I care about how other teams players do.
how can you have an intelligent MVP discussion if you only follow one team and never look at statistics?

[64 % chance]

i just think its hilarious that you keep bringing up "having your own opinion" but then are suddenly suprised when people criticize it, as if they themselves dont possess that same right

How am I criticizing anyone?

[xbrokendownx]

I don't go to any websites. I follow the Phillies so i know pretty much all the major stats. As for the rest of the league I don't know w/o looking it up, nor do I care about how other teams players do.




and that my friends is the definition of a homer

[64 % chance]

and that my friends is the definition of a homer

how can you have an intelligent MVP discussion if you only follow one team and never look at statistics?


ok? I was never arguing that Howard or Utley should be the MVP. Please, oh please tell me where I said either one should be the MVP of the league.

[Drew Beringer]

I'm posting this without looking up stats or anything, basically just setting up a questions for those who love to look up stats. Anyways, if there was just one sole MVP award (no league differentiation) would Manny Ramirez be the MVP?

[xbrokendownx]

How am I criticizing anyone?



youre poking fun at scott for being "God" or whatever the fuck you were talking about

thats not even my point. you seem to be big on having your own opinion, which is fine, but you have to be able to deal with the backlash for the things you say in this forum, especially if theyre ridiculous

just sayin

[CubbyNick42]

I don't go to any websites. I follow the Phillies so i know pretty much all the major stats. As for the rest of the league I don't know w/o looking it up, nor do I care about how other teams players do.
That's great. Thanks for coming out.

[WFUJerseyJon]

Come on man, why the hell would you think you can voice your opinion without first memorizing the latest baseball encyclopedia.

Yea, the 22 years I've spent playing the sport on various levels of competition leave me vastly unqualified to think for myself and draw my own conclusions without using some obscure stat involving runs, at bats, hit by pitches, and innings started by stepping on the field with my right foot before my left.

[Flags of Dawn]

and that my friends is the definition of a homer
what...changing his avatar to the player of the game after each NLDS game wasn't a clue? haha.

[WFUJerseyJon]

I'm posting this without looking up stats or anything, basically just setting up a questions for those who love to look up stats. Anyways, if there was just one sole MVP award (no league differentiation) would Manny Ramirez be the MVP?

Only if you considered his value to the Red Sox in terms of him leaving the club house and removing a cancer from their locker room. Otherwise I don't think he did enough in a Sox uniform this year.

[xbrokendownx]

Yea, the 22 years I've spent playing the sport on various levels of competition leave me vastly unqualified to think for myself and draw my own conclusions without using some obscure stat involving runs, at bats, hit by pitches, and innings started by stepping on the field with my right foot before my left.




you played baseball right out of the womb? thats impressive

[CubbyNick42]

I'm posting this without looking up stats or anything, basically just setting up a questions for those who love to look up stats. Anyways, if there was just one sole MVP award (no league differentiation) would Manny Ramirez be the MVP?
Close but I don't think so.

Manny - .332/.430/.601
Pujols - .357/.462/.653

[Scott Weber]

ok? I was never arguing that Howard or Utley should be the MVP. Please, oh please tell me where I said either one should be the MVP of the league.
Where did I say you did? I said we were having an MVP discussion, and in order to do that you need the knowledge as to what past MVPs are or how those players stack up against the rest of the league.

[WFUJerseyJon]

you played baseball right out of the womb? thats impressive

I know. The first skill I mastered was the head first slide.

[Drew Beringer]

Only if you considered his value to the Red Sox in terms of him leaving the club house and removing a cancer from their locker room. Otherwise I don't think he did enough in a Sox uniform this year.
I'm just saying his total numbers are absurd.

[Scott Weber]

Close but I don't think so.

Manny - .332/.430/.601
Pujols - .357/.462/.653
Manny gets a little boost because of his impact on the Dodgers. But I would still give it to Pujols.

[Killadelphia]

The only difference between Howard's beginning of the year and end of the year was his ability to hit with no one on base. Through most of the beginning of the year, he still hit well with runners on. He's obviously highly productive at driving in runs as he came on strong from about mid-may on to quickly take over the NL lead and shortly later the MLB lead in RBIs.

Utley did struggle yes, but he still reached base at a 38% clip. So while he may have not been driving in runs, Howard did. Howard drove in Utley, Rollins, Victorino, or whomever batted in front of him. You have run scoring and run prevention. Utley does a lot of both. Howard does only a lot of the run producing.

If we're actually going to sit here and debate the Phillies most valubable player to his team, you could list a number of people, whether it be utley, howard, hamels, etc. Quite frankly, I'd start with Jamie Moyer or the bullpen that held a 79-0 record when leading after 8 innings.

64% chance is an idiot and already proved it to the regular Phillies fans when he was having a bitch-fit for Manuel pulling Hamels.

[+thecalisonme]

I'm posting this without looking up stats or anything, basically just setting up a questions for those who love to look up stats. Anyways, if there was just one sole MVP award (no league differentiation) would Manny Ramirez be the MVP?
no cuz he didnt even try for the first hundred games

[64 % chance]

youre poking fun at scott for being "God" or whatever the fuck you were talking about

thats not even my point. you seem to be big on having your own opinion, which is fine, but you have to be able to deal with the backlash for the things you say in this forum, especially if theyre ridiculous

just sayin

The backlash is fine, but at least do it in a mature way (yes i know some of the stuff i've said isn't exactly mature, but i've tried to do the best i could. Now i just think it's a big joke.)

what...changing his avatar to the player of the game after each NLDS game wasn't a clue? haha.

You hate your life don't you?

[Drew Beringer]

Close but I don't think so.

Manny - .332/.430/.601
Pujols - .357/.462/.653
Yeah, I still think Pujols should and will win, just wanted to throw that out there since ManRam won't get any consideration because of how the leagues split stats. It's an interesting debate.

[Flags of Dawn]

The backlash is fine, but at least do it in a mature way (yes i know some of the stuff i've said isn't exactly mature, but i've tried to do the best i could. Now i just think it's a big joke.)



You hate your life don't you?
yep. what's next, gonna take a stab at the post count?

[CubbyNick42]

no cuz he didnt even try for the first hundred games
To say anyone, anyone, can OPS .926 without trying is patently absurd.

[Scott Weber]

The backlash is fine, but at least do it in a mature way (yes i know some of the stuff i've said isn't exactly mature, but i've tried to do the best i could. Now i just think it's a big joke.)



You hate your life don't you?
Ughhhhhhh just leave.

[Scott Weber]

To say anyone, anyone, can OPS .926 without trying is patently absurd.
Don't even bother. Worst user.

[64 % chance]

Where did I say you did? I said we were having an MVP discussion, and in order to do that you need the knowledge as to what past MVPs are or how those players stack up against the rest of the league.


My first post was, " i dont get how howard has more votes than utley". We then got in to the whole argument about who was more valuable to the Phillies, at least thats what i was talking about.

how can you have an intelligent MVP discussion if you only follow one team and never look at statistics?

then you said that. i don't know about you, but i was never, ever talking about who should win the MVP. In fact I may of said that neither howard or utley should win it.

[Scott Weber]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

[64 % chance]

yep. what's next, gonna take a stab at the post count?

I really don't care what your post count is. like i said i'm a phillies fan. I enjoy when my teams do good, god forbid i change my avatar to different phillies. you just come across as a miserable person and make one ignorant statement after another.

Ughhhhhhh just leave.

lol. no.

[WFUJerseyJon]

I'm just saying his total numbers are absurd.

They are pretty nuts, but Pujols matched his HR and only has 4 less RBI's while having higher BA, OBP, and SLG. However, if it were one award for a whole season regardless of league I might have to go with him considering he put up numbers AND drove his team into the postseason almost singlehandedly. That pretty much wins the MVP on both sets of criteria people use (stats vs. 'value').

[Scott Weber]

I really don't care what your post count is. like i said i'm a phillies fan. I enjoy when my teams do good, god forbid i change my avatar to different phillies. you just come across as a miserable person and make one ignorant statement after another.



lol. no.
Let me show you the door. Thanks for stopping in.

[CubbyNick42]

Haha nice.

[Flags of Dawn]

i'm done. dude is a joke.

edit: he's banned from the thread/sports forum? maybe i will quote him one last time.

[Killadelphia]

i'm confused as to how Chase Utley has more votes than Ryan Howard.

My first post was, " i dont get how howard has more votes than utley". We then got in to the whole argument about who was more valuable to the Phillies, at least thats what i was talking about.





ughhhhhhhhhhhh

[xbrokendownx]

MINDFUCK

x

[Scott Weber]

kshtoinks?

[Flags of Dawn]

I really don't care what your post count is. like i said i'm a phillies fan. I enjoy when my teams do good, god forbid i change my avatar to different phillies. you just come across as a miserable person and make one ignorant statement after another.



lol. no.
i'm actually quite happy with my life, and unlike yourself, have a clue as to the topics i talk about. but thanks for playing, even though you'll never read this.

[Scott Weber]

hahahaha oh god, here come the private messages from this dude.

[CubbyNick42]

hahahaha oh god, here come the private messages from this dude.
post them! post them! post them!

[Killadelphia]

i'm sure one of his statements will make a great general thread title.

[preppyak]

I imagine they are all just yelling at him for being immature...or something mindless like that

[Scott Weber]

post them! post them! post them!
He just asked me what rules he broke and if I had ever heard of the ignore function. And there was certainly some maturity stuff in there. But I didn't ban him, just kicked him out the thread. Haha.

[preppyak]

Tell him that is your ignore function

[ForlrnPerplxity]

I think it's lame kicking him out of the thread, but he is easily the most obnoxious, annoying person on here. I can't wait til the Phillies get eliminated so he'll stop posting.

[ForlrnPerplxity]

Yeah, I still think Pujols should and will win, just wanted to throw that out there since ManRam won't get any consideration because of how the leagues split stats. It's an interesting debate.
It does seem a little unfair that guys like Manny Ramirez and CC Sabathia won't get consideration because of the time that they've split between leagues, but that's what you get when you have an MVP and Cy Young winner within each league. It'd be interesting if they decided to go back to 1 Cy Young winner and change it to 1 MVP for all of MLB, but the MLBPA would never allow it.

[StandMyBrothers]

jesus, the ridiculous huge fan from Alabama who's a Rays fan. The retarded Boston fans I'm sure we'll see again. 64%chance & the Phillies. where's the Dodger's idiotic fan representation here?

[preppyak]

there are no Dodgers fans...you know that

[rcrook]

id say something racist but weebs would send me packing with 64%chance

[CubbyNick42]

My girlfriend's Mexican, so I think technically I'd be allowed to say it.

[rcrook]

how'd you know it was geared towards mexican?!!?!?!?

[CubbyNick42]

Haha I think ever-so-subtle references have been made before to that effect

[rcrook]

they pulled a knife on me in the parking lot!

[CubbyNick42]

Pierce pulled his Desert E on me outside Busch.

[bigmike]

Anyone up in the air over AL MVP should refer to bigmike's case for Joe Mauer in the MLB thread.
Nahhh, don't do that. I give the MVP to Grady Sizemore by a decent margin.
I didn't say Cy Young. If Cliff Lee isn't unanimous it'll be a sin. Can't say he wasn't valuable to that team. Put somebody like Billy Wagner in that role and I guarantee he blows more than 6 and the Angels don't win as many games.
Pick a pitcher:

Pitcher A: 246 innings, 206 K, 39 BB, .345 Slugging % against, 1.05 WHIP, K Rate (strikeouts divided by total batters faced) of 20.87, BB rate of 3.95%, 53.7% Ground ball rate.

Pitcher B: 223.1 innings, 170 K, 34 BB, .348 SLG against, 1.11 WHIP, K Rate of 19.07%, BB rate of 3.79%, 45.9% Ground ball rate.

Who are you taking?

Pitcher A = Roy Halladay

Pitcher B = Cliff Lee

Is it still so cut and dry?

I'm posting this without looking up stats or anything, basically just setting up a questions for those who love to look up stats. Anyways, if there was just one sole MVP award (no league differentiation) would Manny Ramirez be the MVP?
No.
Close but I don't think so.

Manny - .332/.430/.601
Pujols - .357/.462/.653
I wouldn't call it close AT ALL. Albert Pujols, even at a nearly irrelevant defensive position absolutely destroys Manny in the field. Add those on and for me it's not even close. Like probably 30+ runs difference.

Edit: looked it up by this system that I really like from a kid named Justin Inaz: Albert Pujols was 98 runs above replacement overall. (http://jinaz-reds.blogspot.com/2008/10/my-2008-awards-post.html) Manny was just 56.

[CubbyNick42]

Nahhh, don't do that. I give the MVP to Grady Sizemore by a decent margin.
What's the case for Grady? I'm guessing defense is a fairly large component?

[preppyak]

What's the case for Grady? I'm guessing defense is a fairly large component?From Bigmike's link

AL MVP
1. Grady Sizemore - 64 RAR, +9 fielding, +2 position adjustment = 76 total value

His team's 0.500 season may have been a disappointment, but Sizemore had a spectacular season. Not only was he an effective offensive force in the pitching-heavy AL, but he played outstanding defense at a premium position. 745 plate appearances batting leadoff in 157 games also helps his cause--playing time matters. Sizemore's 76 total runs above replacement level is a good 1.5 wins better than the next closest player on a playoff team.

And RAR...thats the stat I am looking for.

[bigmike]

What's the case for Grady? I'm guessing defense is a fairly large component?
My fielding numbers had Sizemore at +10.2 runs defensively. Justin Inaz had him at ~9 runs. Sizemore was 3rd in the AL and 7th in Majors in Runs Created at 121 (http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/index.php?view=batting&linesToDisplay=50&orderBy=rc&direction=DESC&qual_filter=1&season_filter%5B%5D=2008&league_filter%5B%5D=All&pos_filter%5B%5D=All&Submit=Submit) (not the best measure and I don't use it much). BProspectus has his VORP at 62.7 (http://baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/index.php?cid=204031) which was 8th best in the majors, Statcorner had him at 27.7 runs above average (http://statcorner.com/team.php?team=CLE&year=2008&leag=A_L) and Justin Inaz had him at 64 runs above replacement offensively (http://jinaz-reds.blogspot.com/2008/10/my-2008-awards-post.html) which was best in the AL. Add in his defense being somewhere probably between 8-10 runs and you've got a very good case. Here's Justin Inaz's spreadsheet (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pfk_WuYpfdux2FC_hs6ROEQ&gid=1) if you're interested in looking it over. About half way down are the NL rankings. They're all ranked by runs above replacement level (RAR) + the defensive runs vale + positional adjustment (a CFer is more important defensively than a 1B, for instance) to give a total that he called TotalValue, easily enough. I'd really recommend putting his blog on an feed/check it often. It's a reds blog but if you want to read about all his methods, he's got a 6 part series (http://jinaz-reds.blogspot.com/search/label/player%20value) about his methods which are very informative and is a great collection of a ton of sources put into one section of the internet. It starts with Part 6 and is a lot of reading and a decent chunk of math but very interesting if you want to see it.

[bigmike]

From Bigmike's link



And RAR...thats the stat I am looking for.
Oooh, look at Preppy getting into the baseball sabermetrics instead of the basketball advanced statistics. Give me a couple mins to find a link you might like since you're getting back in the NBA ball.

[preppyak]

Oooh, look at Preppy getting into the baseball sabermetrics instead of the basketball advanced statistics. Give me a couple mins to find a link you might like since you're getting back in the NBA ball.
Haha, understand I am a huge math nerd, especially applied to sports, and college basketball is not a breeding ground for stats (outside of advanced RPI predictions, etc). Plus, I need something to kill time from about June til September, and baseball (especially if I am in NY), could be it

[bigmike]

Haha, understand I am a huge math nerd, especially applied to sports, and college basketball is not a breeding ground for stats (outside of advanced RPI predictions, etc). Plus, I need something to kill time from about June til September, and baseball (especially if I am in NY), could be it
There's a baseball projection forecast that is called Marcels since it's apparently "so easy a monkey could do it." Anyways, a dude took the method, tweaked it, and applied it to the NBA (http://www.feinsports.com/?p=124) for this coming season. Don't know if it worked and I haven't looked at anything else from Feinsports.com, but I thought you might like it. The guy I got the link from (big time sabermetrician named Tom Tango who's first love is actually hockey and he's worked for almost all of the NHL teams at some point and done some consulting with MLB teams said the regression factor might be too strong for NBA numbers and thus could throw some off but it should be interesting to look at).

Also, do you peruse basketball prospectus (http://basketballprospectus.com/)? You may like that site since you like math + basketball.

[preppyak]

I do go to basketball prospectus a bit, ken pomeroy is the statistics side of that basically, and while I dislike that his blog is gone, its a good site

[bigmike]

Yeah, kenpom.com is still up, though, right? My love for b-ball -- even on the college level -- is waning to casual-fan status at best.

[preppyak]

Yeah, kenpom.com is still up, though, right? My love for b-ball -- even on the college level -- is waning to casual-fan status at best.
Yeah, Kenpom is still up, but its just the stats now, no real analysis. And I'll agree with the bolded part, I don't watch nearly as many games as I used to, hopefully now having a bit more free time will help that.

[rcrook]

BigMike, if you taught a class about all of the statistical stuff you provide I would take it in an instant. Do you have any desire to work in that area. Baseball mathematics? I wouldn't even know what to call it or classify it under.

[+thecalisonme]

To say anyone, anyone, can OPS .926 without trying is patently absurd.
well thats manny being manny, absurd

[WFUJerseyJon]

Pick a pitcher:

Pitcher A: 246 innings, 206 K, 39 BB, .345 Slugging % against, 1.05 WHIP, K Rate (strikeouts divided by total batters faced) of 20.87, BB rate of 3.95%, 53.7% Ground ball rate.

Pitcher B: 223.1 innings, 170 K, 34 BB, .348 SLG against, 1.11 WHIP, K Rate of 19.07%, BB rate of 3.79%, 45.9% Ground ball rate.

Who are you taking?

Pitcher A = Roy Halladay

Pitcher B = Cliff Lee

Is it still so cut and dry?

I'm not trying to knock Halladay because I think he has been the best pitcher in the American League over the past few years, but I still give it to Lee. His ERA is 0.24 better, and Lee has 2 more wins and 8 less losses. Lee never won less than 3 games in a month this season and never lost more than 1 whereas Halladay started the season slow for his usual norm going 2-4, and never had a month without a loss. Baseball is about winning games, and pitchers are judged by how well they help their team accomplish that. I don't think it matters how you get there, it's all abou the results, and Cliff Lee brought success.

[xbrokendownx]

W-L record for a pitcher is pointless to argue as it is pretty much based on his team. your ERA argument is fine but im just saying

[Scott Weber]

I'm not trying to knock Halladay because I think he has been the best pitcher in the American League over the past few years, but I still give it to Lee. His ERA is 0.24 better, and Lee has 2 more wins and 8 less losses. Lee never won less than 3 games in a month this season and never lost more than 1 whereas Halladay started the season slow for his usual norm going 2-4, and never had a month without a loss. Baseball is about winning games, and pitchers are judged by how well they help their team accomplish that. I don't think it matters how you get there, it's all abou the results, and Cliff Lee brought success.
how do wins/losses matter at all? it's completely dependent on your team's offense and your team's ability to hold a lead (bullpen.)

[Scott Weber]

I think it's lame kicking him out of the thread, but he is easily the most obnoxious, annoying person on here. I can't wait til the Phillies get eliminated so he'll stop posting.
Look at you, the man of the people. Why do you always complain when I knock people out? Nothing productive was coming from it, he was throwing around personal insults, it's going nowhere and he's techinically breaking rules. so peace.

[WFUJerseyJon]

W-L record for a pitcher is pointless to argue as it is pretty much based on his team. your ERA argument is fine but im just saying

how do wins/losses matter at all? it's completely dependent on your team's offense and your team's ability to hold a lead (bullpen.)

I disagree, I do think win/losses matter. That's what matters most in any team sport, and the reason a team pays a pitcher is to win games. When it's all said and done, strikeouts, ground ball percentages, innings pitched, and any other stat one cares to measure a pitcher by are all just factors in a pitcher's ability to win games. And 22-3 is an incredible record at that. Even if you don't think win/losses should count, 22-3 is nothing to scoff at.

EDIT: And if that's the case, since Toronto was a better team than Cleveland, shouldn't it follow that Halladay would win more games? No, which is why wins are important.

[+thecalisonme]

you also think k-rod should be in the mvp discussion

[WFUJerseyJon]

oooo good one.

[+thecalisonme]

terrible actually

[ForlrnPerplxity]

Look at you, the man of the people. Why do you always complain when I knock people out? Nothing productive was coming from it, he was throwing around personal insults, it's going nowhere and he's techinically breaking rules. so peace.
Jesus, Weber I don't even really care hahaha. That guy is annoying as hell. Also I might've complained one other time about it, but that's when everybody was too...but you don't ever exaggerate. ;-)

[xbrokendownx]

I disagree, I do think win/losses matter. That's what matters most in any team sport, and the reason a team pays a pitcher is to win games. When it's all said and done, strikeouts, ground ball percentages, innings pitched, and any other stat one cares to measure a pitcher by are all just factors in a pitcher's ability to win games. And 22-3 is an incredible record at that. Even if you don't think win/losses should count, 22-3 is nothing to scoff at.

EDIT: And if that's the case, since Toronto was a better team than Cleveland, shouldn't it follow that Halladay would win more games? No, which is why wins are important.




of course winning games matters, but whether or not a pitcher gets a win or not is not up to him. its up to his team scoring runs. anyone that says otherwise doesnt know what theyre talking about.

[WFUJerseyJon]

of course winning games matters, but whether or not a pitcher gets a win or not is not up to him. its up to his team scoring runs. anyone that says otherwise doesnt know what theyre talking about.

I'm not saying it's the be all and end all, and I'm not saying it's only in their hands. Obviously a team's ability to score runs affects it, but the bottom line is it's a pitcher's duty to do all in their power to put their team in the best position to win a game. No other position affects the outcome of a game more than the starting pitcher, and that's why it's a crucial statistic to their success. Quick, name the pitcher with the all time best ground ball to fly ball ratio. Name the all time leader in WHIP. You can't off the top of your head. However I bet you could name the all time wins leader, because that's who this award is named after. And pitchers pitch differently depending on the way the game is going. Anyone who doesn't know that doesn't know what they're talking about.

[xbrokendownx]

yes but their ERA, WHIP, AVG against, etc do more to further their case for being good than their W-L record

[WFUJerseyJon]

Agreed, but you can't discount W-L either. It's still a major factor. I think Lincecum should win the NL Cy Young over Webb, I just disagree that Halladay should get it over Lee.

[CubbyNick42]

I'm not saying it's the be all and end all, and I'm not saying it's only in their hands. Obviously a team's ability to score runs affects it, but the bottom line is it's a pitcher's duty to do all in their power to put their team in the best position to win a game. No other position affects the outcome of a game more than the starting pitcher, and that's why it's a crucial statistic to their success. Quick, name the pitcher with the all time best ground ball to fly ball ratio. Name the all time leader in WHIP. You can't off the top of your head. However I bet you could name the all time wins leader, because that's who this award is named after. And pitchers pitch differently depending on the way the game is going. Anyone who doesn't know that doesn't know what they're talking about.
That's because there have been 100+ years of dumb sportswriters trying to convince us they matter when we now know otherwise. By your logic, two pitchers could have identical statistics across the board, ERA, WHIP, GB/FB, K/BB, etc., but if one guy is 21-7 and the other is 18-11, you're taking the 21-7 guy because of this mythical sense of "knowing how to win." Wins are based almost completely in luck and chance (hence Cole Hamels winning 14 this year while Bronson Arroyo won 15), and aren't any kind of reliable barometer by which to measure a pitcher's ability.

[WFUJerseyJon]

That's because there have been 100+ years of dumb sportswriters trying to convince us they matter when we now know otherwise. By your logic, two pitchers could have identical statistics across the board, ERA, WHIP, GB/FB, K/BB, etc., but if one guy is 21-7 and the other is 18-11, you're taking the 21-7 guy because of this mythical sense of "knowing how to win." Wins are based almost completely in luck and chance (hence Cole Hamels winning 14 this year while Bronson Arroyo won 15), and aren't any kind of reliable barometer by which to measure a pitcher's ability.

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that if two pitchers did have identical stats and one had more wins, I'd sure as hell give that pitcher a CY YOUNG award over the other. Wins are not based on luck and chance, and like I said, no other player on the field has more control over whether his team wins or loses than the starting pitcher, hence why it's a fair and important stat to judge starting pitchers by.

I love how obsessed the sports forum people are with whining about sports writers. You all sound like high school kids whining about how the popular jock gets the girl.

[xbrokendownx]

whos whining? were just saying that its wrong to base your opinion on W-L record. thats like saying saves are important...

[crit]

Wins are not based on luck and chance...
Yes, they are.
...it's a fair and important stat to judge starting pitchers by.
No, they are not.

[CubbyNick42]

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that if two pitchers did have identical stats and one had more wins, I'd sure as hell give that pitcher a CY YOUNG award over the other. Wins are not based on luck and chance, and like I said, no other player on the field has more control over whether his team wins or loses than the starting pitcher, hence why it's a fair and important stat to judge starting pitchers by.

I love how obsessed the sports forum people are with whining about sports writers. You all sound like high school kids whining about how the popular jock gets the girl.
One guy can give up 5 runs in 6 innings and get a win, then in his next start give up 2 runs in 7 innings and lose. Nope, no luck or chance there. The pitcher's in total control.

[WFUJerseyJon]

Yes, they are.

No, they are not.

One guy can give up 5 runs in 6 innings and get a win, then in his next start give up 2 runs in 7 innings and lose. Nope, no luck or chance there. The pitcher's in total control.

I realize that you win some lucky games and you lose some tough ones. That's baseball, and why you play the games. But over the course of 30-35 starts, things even out.

[Scott Weber]

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that if two pitchers did have identical stats and one had more wins, I'd sure as hell give that pitcher a CY YOUNG award over the other. Wins are not based on luck and chance, and like I said, no other player on the field has more control over whether his team wins or loses than the starting pitcher, hence why it's a fair and important stat to judge starting pitchers by.

I love how obsessed the sports forum people are with whining about sports writers. You all sound like high school kids whining about how the popular jock gets the girl.
1) Yes they are. How are they not? A pitcher could throw 30 starts and never give up more than 2 runs in a start and easily go 1-18.

Matt Cain and Justin Verlander had very similar core stats in 2007, but Matt Cain went 7-16 because of his terrible offense and horrible bullpen. Does that make him less valuable?

And it's ok for everyone to question their government and authority, but it's somehow jealous of us to question the horribly outdated statistics baseball writers use.

[CubbyNick42]

I love how obsessed the sports forum people are with whining about sports writers. You all sound like high school kids whining about how the popular jock gets the girl.
You can either come to the sports forum with an open mind and try to learn something, or you can be a stubborn ass who'll continue to spout the same tired cliches about "clutch hitting" and "veteran leadership" for the rest of his life. Your call.

[Scott Weber]

I realize that you win some lucky games and you lose some tough ones. That's baseball, and why you play the games. But over the course of 30-35 starts, things even out.
No they don't. That's why Paul Abbott went 17-4 in 2001 despite being fucking horrible all year long. Things do not balance out, that is stupid. If an offense is shitty, it's shitty. If a bullpen sucks, it sucks.

[xbrokendownx]

randy johnson won 17 games in 2006

...with a 5 ERA

[CubbyNick42]

I realize that you win some lucky games and you lose some tough ones. That's baseball, and why you play the games. But over the course of 30-35 starts, things even out.
Not if your team has a woeful offense and a horrible bullpen. Ben Sheets had one of the best pitching seasons of the last 10 years in '04, but you'd never know it because he finished 12-14.

[WFUJerseyJon]

1) Yes they are. How are they not? A pitcher could throw 30 starts and never give up more than 2 runs in a start and easily go 1-18.

Matt Cain and Justin Verlander had very similar core stats in 2007, but Matt Cain went 7-16 because of his terrible offense and horrible bullpen. Does that make him less valuable?

And it's ok for everyone to question their government and authority, but it's somehow jealous of us to question the horribly outdated statistics baseball writers use.

1. I would to see the day when that happens. It's not perfect, but it does even out.

Yes, it does. It's a lot easier to have those stats when there's no pressure and you're not in any type of race. Verlander did it for a team trying to make the postseason, not a basement dweller. That's like saying would you rather have Gil Meche or Josh Beckett on your team because of their stats this season.

The statistics they use aren't outdated. They're the statistics that measure success. Some fucking obscure statistic found in the back of baseball prospectus isn't needed if you know enough about baseball to watch the game and form your own opinions.

You can either come to the sports forum with an open mind and try to learn something, or you can be a stubborn ass who'll continue to spout the same tired cliches about "clutch hitting" and "veteran leadership" for the rest of his life. Your call.

That's the biggest load of shit I've ever heard. Almost everybody I talk to on this site, myself included, avoids the sports forum at all costs because everytime they open their mouth their faced with the same 10 kids who themselves are close minded stubborn asses, who are most likely the kids still bitter about being cut 4 years in a row in high school, cutting them down and refusing to budge on their part.

No they don't. That's why Paul Abbott went 17-4 in 2001 despite being fucking horrible all year long. Things do not balance out, that is stupid. If an offense is shitty, it's shitty. If a bullpen sucks, it sucks.

I agree that other factors play into it, however the final results 8 or 9 out of 10 times are accurate measures. The Mets had one of the worst bullpens in history this year, Johan Santana still had a very successful season. Should he have at least 5 more wins? Yes, but he still finished with 16 wins, not 1 like you suggested a bad bull pen will give you.

[xbrokendownx]

lol yes we are bitter about getting cut in high school. you got it.