Doubt

[poppa Q]

Trailer (http://www.apple.com/trailers/miramax/doubt/)

Meryl Streep, Philip Seymour Hoffman and Amy Adams; written and directed by John Patrick Shanley. I'm such a sucker for PSH and this looks great.

From IMDB: "Set in 1964, Doubt centers on a nun who confronts a priest after suspecting him abusing a black student. He denies the charges, and much of the play's quick-fire dialogue tackles themes of religion, morality and authority."

[Jessooker]

this has oscar written all over it.

[eraserhead]

this has oscar written all over it.
definitely.

edit: holy shit that trailer is amazing. I love how you can't tell who the bad guy is.

[Smash Adams]

I've only heard good things about this play, so this makes the list what 10 movies I want to see come December

[Ailite]

This looks so good, I can't wait to see it.

[Raiden]

I didn't like the trailer, but then again this isn't really my sort of movie.

[eraserhead]

I've only heard good things about this play, so this makes the list what 10 movies I want to see come December
you just want to see a little black kid get molested

[eraserhead]

I didn't like the trailer, but then again this isn't really my sort of movie.
I have a feeling Disaster Movie is more your speed

[Raiden]

I have a feeling Disaster Movie is more your speed
Oh god no. If I could kill anyone on this planet it would be those two douchebags.

[Smash Adams]

you just want to see a little black kid get molested

no sir, that's what camcorders are for :perv:

[AshesAshes]

Going to see this in a few hours stoked

[Recovery Room]

The more I think about this I come to different conclusions.

I love films like this, but they frustrate me to no end as well.

It's been a couple of weeks since I've seen it and really would like to go again.

[timbedinosaur]

This looks really well made but it just isn't my cup of tea.

[needles & pins]

I'm leaving to see this in about 15 minutes. I'm excited to see it.

Edit: Wow. I loved the movie. So chilling and emotional. I can't decide whether or not he did it. The movie left me with doubts (no pun intended) all around about the motivations of each character. I'd love to watch it again to really be able to let things sink in and dig into the story or "clues" more. Excellent film.

[dashboard1190]

I loved it. Streep, Hofman, Davis will definitely get nominations and Adams probably will too (i'm not a huge Amy Adams fan, but she played her part well)

Here are my thoughts:

The final scene between Streep and Hoffman in her office is probably one of the most chilling, electrifying, thrilling, and moving scenes i've ever seen.

I do not think he did it. He may have done it previously, but I do not believe he did it at the school with Donald. I also think he was gay, but not in the sense that he only became a priest because of the boys, but because he seemed to have a strong connection with Donald and knew why he needed to be protected and cared for. What are your thoughts on the final scene? Personally, I think that Streep's character just wanted to lure Sister James back in and was not actually having this mini crisis. I think Streep knew that Sister James was slipping out from her grip and she needed to get her back on her side. (if that makes sense) because I think it's obvious that Sister Aloysius purposely shows her cross from underneath her habit to Sister James as a way to get off the topic of Father Flynn.

[Recovery Room]

I loved it. Streep, Hofman, Davis will definitely get nominations and Adams probably will too (i'm not a huge Amy Adams fan, but she played her part well)

Here are my thoughts:

The final scene between Streep and Hoffman in her office is probably one of the most chilling, electrifying, thrilling, and moving scenes i've ever seen.

I do not think he did it. He may have done it previously, but I do not believe he did it at the school with Donald. I also think he was gay, but not in the sense that he only became a priest because of the boys, but because he seemed to have a strong connection with Donald and knew why he needed to be protected and cared for. What are your thoughts on the final scene? Personally, I think that Streep's character just wanted to lure Sister James back in and was not actually having this mini crisis. I think Streep knew that Sister James was slipping out from her grip and she needed to get her back on her side. (if that makes sense) because I think it's obvious that Sister Aloysius purposely shows her cross from underneath her habit to Sister James as a way to get off the topic of Father Flynn.
Regarding the part I bolded: I never though of that; interesting theory.

As I said in another thread...

I think he was guilty of it in his past. With the situation with Donald, though, I believe he was innocent. It could just be he's a great liar (and Hoffman is such a great actor), but much like Sister James, I genuinely believed his denials.

I think he ended up leaving because he knew he wouldn't be able to win a fight with Sister Aloysius Beauvier, especially after being lead to believe she contacted his prior schools (this aspect is what makes believe there was at least some wrongdoing in a similar vein at some point). I haven't thought of a better way to explain why he left other than shame for being found out for what he had done before and realizing his past guilt would make it impossible for him to win a fight with Sister Beauvier, especially after his speech about past mistakes, repentance and forgiveness while being so adamant and, in my opinion, genuine.

However...

I don't know how to make sense of the fact Father Flynn had the boy's undershirt and was placing it in his locker. According to certain things I've read, including accounts of former altar boys, their "robe" would just go over their clothing so there'd be no need to remove their undergarments. If that indeed is the case, it's hard to think of an okay, innocent scenario where Father Flynn would be doing that.

Also...

What do you make of Donald's fellow altar boy? Why do you think he got so worked up and started to cry when he returned to class? An interesting theory I read is that it's possible that he and Donald had something going on and Flynn knew about it.

I definitely believe Flynn was gay, but I'm not sure if there was any wrongdoing with Donald.

And what do you make of the blonde-haired boy grinning at the end? Some also think maybe he was actually the victim of Father Flynn whereas he just sympathized with Donald and his sexuality issues.

Man, the more I think about and ponder this movie the more conclusions and theories I come up with and want to see it again

[Machu505]

This movie is fucking amazing. Possibly my MOTY.

[Ailite]

Great movie. Debating whether or not he did it is very very interesting.

[Lirr168]

I saw the film last night and loved it. I actually had read and seen this as a play in the Spring as part of a course. The movie and the play were written by the same guy, so it's interesting to see what he added. Some thoughts of mine:

Agree with everything said so far. The writer (John Patrick Shanley) said in an interview that the play, and I'll assume this as well, was expressly intended to make people debate back and forth about whether Fr. Flynn did it or was being unfairly accused. Basically, there is no answer, but there are apparently a lot of subtle clues leaning both ways.

In the movie, I think you see more hints that he did it, though perhaps not to Donald. Two things: Jimmy seems extremely uncomfortable around Flynn and the camera spent a lot of time on him just looking upset on the alter. Also, when William leaves school with the bloody nose, he takes out a cigarette identical to the one Flynn is seen smoking in the scene with Sr. James. On the other hand, and this seemed more obiovus to me on the stage than the screen, he could have freaked out over Alysious calling and speaking to a nun because he was having an affair with a nun. The scene alone with Sr. James seemed more or less innocent in the film, but in the play it came off more like he was making a move on her.

Anywho, just some things to consider. I loved it and really would like to see it again,

[s.t.e.v.e.n.]

what is so great / frustrating / crazy about this film is that i left feeling I had just as much evidence of his innocence as i did of his guilt (father flynn that is). in response to the post about meryll streep's character faking the breakdown. i really feel like that is a stretch to be honest. but at the same time a lot of the conclusions that you come to after watching the movie feel like a stretch. with regards to her faking the episode at the end, i doubt it (i couldn't resist, sorry) but I can't rule it out.

[Lueda Alia]

I want to watch this movie just because of Amy Adams. I love her. I also really like Meryl Streep, so I have to watch this at some point.

[needles & pins]

I want to watch this movie just because of Amy Adams. I love her. I also really like Meryl Streep, so I have to watch this at some point.

I really liked Adams in this. She had some great subtle facial expressions in some of the scenes that added a little bit of humor. I was pleasantly surprised by how many little funny things were added into the film. It might have felt a lot heavier without the little bits that were added in.

I loved this: "Well, I like Frosty the Snowman!!" and the stuff about the ballpoint pens

[AshesAshes]

Great movie, I spent the next 2 hours debating if he did it or not with my friends. Great performances across the board in this film

[dashboard1190]

Regarding the part I bolded: I never though of that; interesting theory.

As I said in another thread...

I think he was guilty of it in his past. With the situation with Donald, though, I believe he was innocent. It could just be he's a great liar (and Hoffman is such a great actor), but much like Sister James, I genuinely believed his denials.

I think he ended up leaving because he knew he wouldn't be able to win a fight with Sister Aloysius Beauvier, especially after being lead to believe she contacted his prior schools (this aspect is what makes believe there was at least some wrongdoing in a similar vein at some point). I haven't thought of a better way to explain why he left other than shame for being found out for what he had done before and realizing his past guilt would make it impossible for him to win a fight with Sister Beauvier, especially after his speech about past mistakes, repentance and forgiveness while being so adamant and, in my opinion, genuine.

However...

I don't know how to make sense of the fact Father Flynn had the boy's undershirt and was placing it in his locker. According to certain things I've read, including accounts of former altar boys, their "robe" would just go over their clothing so there'd be no need to remove their undergarments. If that indeed is the case, it's hard to think of an okay, innocent scenario where Father Flynn would be doing that.

Also...

What do you make of Donald's fellow altar boy? Why do you think he got so worked up and started to cry when he returned to class? An interesting theory I read is that it's possible that he and Donald had something going on and Flynn knew about it.

I definitely believe Flynn was gay, but I'm not sure if there was any wrongdoing with Donald.

And what do you make of the blonde-haired boy grinning at the end? Some also think maybe he was actually the victim of Father Flynn whereas he just sympathized with Donald and his sexuality issues.

Man, the more I think about and ponder this movie the more conclusions and theories I come up with and want to see it again

I really cannot give an explanation to the undershirt. I think that is the single biggest piece of evidence leaning towards his guilt. I wish there was some explanation, but I think that's included just to make you think even more.

That's an interesting hypothesis about Donald and his classmate. I never thought of that, but it would make sense and is possible.

I forget the blonde-haired boy at the end, in what context is he smiling?

seeing all of these new ideas makes me want to see it again to catch any clues that I may have missed.

[dashboard1190]

what is so great / frustrating / crazy about this film is that i left feeling I had just as much evidence of his innocence as i did of his guilt (father flynn that is). in response to the post about meryll streep's character faking the breakdown. i really feel like that is a stretch to be honest. but at the same time a lot of the conclusions that you come to after watching the movie feel like a stretch. with regards to her faking the episode at the end, i doubt it (i couldn't resist, sorry) but I can't rule it out.

Why do you think it's a stretch (i'm interested to see what you say)?

I just honestly think Streep is way too vindictive for that scene at the end to be completely 100% true.

Also, what was the significance of the crucifix she grabs during her big fight with Father Flynn in her office? Nothing really comes of that until the very end. And i'd be interested see people figure that out.

Haha so many possibilities!

[Recovery Room]

I really cannot give an explanation to the undershirt. I think that is the single biggest piece of evidence leaning towards his guilt. I wish there was some explanation, but I think that's included just to make you think even more.

That's an interesting hypothesis about Donald and his classmate. I never thought of that, but it would make sense and is possible.

I forget the blonde-haired boy at the end, in what context is he smiling?

seeing all of these new ideas makes me want to see it again to catch any clues that I may have missed.
He is smiling when Father Flynn is giving his farewell sermon.

Why do you think it's a stretch (i'm interested to see what you say)?

I just honestly think Streep is way too vindictive for that scene at the end to be completely 100% true.

Also, what was the significance of the crucifix she grabs during her big fight with Father Flynn in her office? Nothing really comes of that until the very end. And i'd be interested see people figure that out.

Haha so many possibilities!
When she slams it down the Jesus on it breaks. Huge symbolism.

[poppa Q]

I want to watch this movie just because of Amy Adams. I love her. I also really like Meryl Streep, so I have to watch this at some point.

Amy Adams is absolutely adorable. (That wasn't intentionally alliterated from the get-go.) And Phil is probably my favorite actor, I can't believe I've yet to see this. Tomorrow. Tomorrow it is.

[Machu505]

Meryl Streep did an amazing job making me want to reach through the screen and strangle her.

[Recovery Room]

Meryl Streep did an amazing job making me want to reach through the screen and strangle her.
All four main players in this did a marvelous job of portraying their particular character and what needed to be conveyed in order for us to react in the way that was required (i.e. Streep was annoying, Hoffman made you believe he was innocent, Adams seemed sincerely and genuinely innocent and you sympathized with Davis).

[Machu505]

All four main players in this did a marvelous job of portraying their particular character and what needed to be conveyed in order for us to react in the way that was required (i.e. Streep was annoying, Hoffman made you believe he was innocent, Adams seemed sincerely and genuinely innocent and you sympathized with Davis).

It's just that her character was incredibly despicable haha.

[Recovery Room]

It's just that her character was incredibly despicable haha.
Oh, I'm not disagreeing or taking away from what you said, I totally agree, just stating how amazing of a job everyone did.

I really, really want to see this again so I'll probably catch a matinee at some point this week.

[dashboard1190]

He is smiling when Father Flynn is giving his farewell sermon.


When she slams it down the Jesus on it breaks. Huge symbolism.

Ohhhh. Somehow I managed to miss that.

That makes her final conversation with Sister James more believable, but i'm still not 100% convinced.

[Machu505]

Oh and just to throw in my two cents, I think Father Flynn did it.

[Recovery Room]

Oh and just to throw in my two cents, I think Father Flynn did it.
What makes you come to that conclusion?

I go back and forth.

[Machu505]

What makes you come to that conclusion?

I go back and forth.

I came to it not for anything in the plot, but simply how it was written. I believe the play/movie was written to make you think Flynn didn't do it by making his character so nice and innocent while Streep's character is mean and abrasive. I see it all as reverse psychology, but it's probably the worst reasoning ever haha.

[Recovery Room]

I came to it not for anything in the plot, but simply how it was written. I believe the play/movie was written to make you think Flynn didn't do it by making his character so nice and innocent while Streep's character is mean and abrasive. I see it all as reverse psychology, but it's probably the worst reasoning ever haha.
That's actually an interesting theory that I didn't even come close to thinking.

[Machu505]

I try, I try.

[s.t.e.v.e.n.]

Why do you think it's a stretch (i'm interested to see what you say)?

I just honestly think Streep is way too vindictive for that scene at the end to be completely 100% true.

Also, what was the significance of the crucifix she grabs during her big fight with Father Flynn in her office? Nothing really comes of that until the very end. And i'd be interested see people figure that out.

Haha so many possibilities!

I guess the only reason is that I saw it more as her character, who had seemed very sure of herself and of her beliefs etc finally breaking down and admitting her doubts. Im not usually comfortable making inferences that seem to require so much work on my part and I suppose I feel that way in this case. What I mean by work on my part is I feel I have to assume things that I'm not sure I can. I also think that given the father's sermon about how isolating doubt can be and how lonely one who is secretly doubting would feel that it fits that sister A would break down for that very reason.

I hope that makes sense and also want to say that I don't want to sound conescending or arrogant. I think the movie was meant to lead to these types of discussions. If anything I think that given the way this movie was made, many parts can be taken many ways.

[dashboard1190]

I guess the only reason is that I saw it more as her character, who had seemed very sure of herself and of her beliefs etc finally breaking down and admitting her doubts. Im not usually comfortable making inferences that seem to require so much work on my part and I suppose I feel that way in this case. What I mean by work on my part is I feel I have to assume things that I'm not sure I can. I also think that given the father's sermon about how isolating doubt can be and how lonely one who is secretly doubting would feel that it fits that sister A would break down for that very reason.

I hope that makes sense and also want to say that I don't want to sound conescending or arrogant. I think the movie was meant to lead to these types of discussions. If anything I think that given the way this movie was made, many parts can be taken many ways.

No you don't sound condescending/arrogant (don't worry).

I must have missed that she broke her crucifix when she was fighting with Fr. Flynn because now it seems a lot more logical (and your explanation makes sense).

I'm actually very interested in seeing this again (which is very odd for me, I usually cannot watch movies more than once in a short period of time, but I'd love to try to catch all of the clues/subtleties in the film.

[dashboard1190]

ps. love your avatar.

[AP_Punk]

great great movie.

i was thinking about it all on the drive back home. no idea! haha.

[s.t.e.v.e.n.]

No you don't sound condescending/arrogant (don't worry).

I must have missed that she broke her crucifix when she was fighting with Fr. Flynn because now it seems a lot more logical (and your explanation makes sense).

I'm actually very interested in seeing this again (which is very odd for me, I usually cannot watch movies more than once in a short period of time, but I'd love to try to catch all of the clues/subtleties in the film.

im glad, i hate sounding like a jerk when im not trying to ha

i definitely agree as far as seeing it again. i feel like i might have completely new thoughts after seeing things that are more subtle

ps. love your avatar.

thanks, i loved the pop art obama posters and love brad pitt and love fight club so when i saw this i had only one choice. ap.net avatar.

[dashboard1190]

im glad, i hate sounding like a jerk when im not trying to ha

i definitely agree as far as seeing it again. i feel like i might have completely new thoughts after seeing things that are more subtle



thanks, i loved the pop art obama posters and love brad pitt and love fight club so when i saw this i had only one choice. ap.net avatar.

I watched Fight Club last night (for like the fourth time) and it truly is such a perfect movie.

Today I watched Se7en and I'm seeing Benjamin Button again tomorrow.

I guess you could say i'm on a David Fincher streak haha.

[s.t.e.v.e.n.]

Yea, I am yet to see Benjamin Button. Waiting to see it with my girlfriend in a couple of days. Very excited for that one.

[AnF1500]

I liked this film but I want to watch it again. I know there are subtle cues I didn't get to really pay much attention to. At the very end when Streep is talking to Adams and expresses her doubts....is she actually talking about the guilt or innocence of Father Flynn or something more general like her faith?

[Juturna25]

saw this movie tonight and absolutely loved it. really brought back memories of my catholic grammar school with the nuns (ahhh, good times). Streep was superb; she was really the star of the movie (although Hoffman and Adams held their own, they were fantastic as well). She was vindictive yet hilarious; i loved her. Not to mention she reminded me of a nun I had as a teacher. As for the story, I believe Father Flynn did indeed molest the child. Things that made me believe so were the fact that he put his undergarment back into the boy's locker (obvious), the way he acted with boy, the interest in how sister would have suspicion (covering his tracks perhaps?), but also the strange, albeit, very revealing reactions from the other alter boy. Why is he so riled up upon return to class? Why is he tearing? I think he has witnessed what has occured between Flynn and the child and wants the truth to be revealed, or maybe he used to be Flynn's go to boy until Donald came along (there's so many possibilites here). Flynn also gives into sister, resinging from his post at the parish, which indicated to me he was guilty. At the end, the last scene between Streep and Adams, when Streep's character starts crying saying she has doubts, made me totally think she was referring to the situation with father flynn and what she believed. This totally threw me off and kind of negated what I had thought before. After the movie, though, I thought about it and I think she was referring to her choice of become a nun. She just went on this crusade to get rid of Flynn and when he leaves what happens? Flynn is rewarded. She is tired of living this life of man-ruled society. Overall, loved this movie. Made you laugh, but also made you think.

[stayillogical]

What do you make of Donald's fellow altar boy? Why do you think he got so worked up and started to cry when he returned to class? An interesting theory I read is that it's possible that he and Donald had something going on and Flynn knew about it.



Man, the more I think about and ponder this movie the more conclusions and theories I come up with and want to see it again

I was convinced of this and thought they were going to reveal it in the ending.

It was the way that his fellow altar boy kind of stood up for him by answering the question in class. And why did Donald ask him at the beginning of the movie, "Do you think I look fat?" Or something to that effect. I got a vibe from those two. Anyways, I think Father Flynn is innocent for a lot of the reasons already posted. Something that hasn't been mentioned is, what is with the wind and the open windows? I just watched the movie so I'm contemplating this.

[Stephen Chamberlain]

No one's mentioned Deakins' cinematography. He also did it for Rev Road this year. My favorite credit of his would be The Assassination of Jesse James..., though.

[Thomas Balkcom]

will be picking this up once I get home from school

[popdisaster00]

sweet, it's out today!

[AP_Punk]

buying later this week!

[Thomas Balkcom]

No one's mentioned Deakins' cinematography. He also did it for Rev Road this year. My favorite credit of his would be The Assassination of Jesse James..., though.

that guy has had such an impressive career

[Thomas Balkcom]

for those buying use this coupon, I will be later today

http://www.aarp.org/aarp/disney/

[AP_Punk]

oh sweet. thanks, man!