Catholic Church going bankrupt

[UndefinedBoy]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20041228/lf_nm/religion_abuse_money_dc

[yeat182]

good

[LoyalSubject]

Unfortunately they are still very rich, not with money but with Capital. They have thousands of churches all over the world with some prime real estate that would be worth a pretty penny not to mention the millions of religious relics and artifacts. Unfortunately the Catholic church will be around for a long long time.

[Broken Truth]

down with sunday mass and their cannibalistic sacrament :76:

[LoyalSubject]

down with sunday mass and their cannibalistic sacrament :76:
yah wheat crackers come from people....

[venus/bacchus]

yah wheat crackers come from people....
Catholics believe that the host is actually the reincarnated body of Jesus, not just a representation.

Now, I was raised Catholic (although at the moment I prefer to go by the much simpler "Christian" because I don't completely agree with some of the Church's stances) so I may have a bias, but I cannot understand the thinking behind hoping the Catholic Church crumbles or fails. If someone could justify a hatred of the modern church for me, I'd appreciate it.

[Bishop]

Catholics believe that the host is actually the reincarnated body of Jesus, not just a representation.

Now, I was raised Catholic (although at the moment I prefer to go by the much simpler "Christian" because I don't completely agree with some of the Church's stances) so I may have a bias, but I cannot understand the thinking behind hoping the Catholic Church crumbles or fails. If someone could justify a hatred of the modern church for me, I'd appreciate it.

Didn't you get the memo, it's super awesome cool to be atheist and to generalize a whole religion and all the people associated with it, because you know, everybody who believes in God is obviously a fucking idiot for having faith in something.

[dretti]

Didn't you get the memo, it's super awesome cool to be atheist and to generalize a whole religion and all the people associated with it, because you know, everybody who believes in God is obviously a fucking idiot for having faith in something.

Exactly. My feelings toward a lot of people on this site.

[LoyalSubject]

Catholics believe that the host is actually the reincarnated body of Jesus, not just a representation.

Now, I was raised Catholic (although at the moment I prefer to go by the much simpler "Christian" because I don't completely agree with some of the Church's stances) so I may have a bias, but I cannot understand the thinking behind hoping the Catholic Church crumbles or fails. If someone could justify a hatred of the modern church for me, I'd appreciate it.
That news to me. Why the hell would you want to think that you are eating Jesus?!?! I withdraw my statement. Broken Truth- You are Right.

[yeat182]

Catholics believe that the host is actually the reincarnated body of Jesus, not just a representation.

Now, I was raised Catholic (although at the moment I prefer to go by the much simpler "Christian" because I don't completely agree with some of the Church's stances) so I may have a bias, but I cannot understand the thinking behind hoping the Catholic Church crumbles or fails. If someone could justify a hatred of the modern church for me, I'd appreciate it.

not to be a wise ass, but i would also appreciate some justification of the hatred from the ancient church...

[venus/bacchus]

That news to me. Why the hell would you want to think that you are eating Jesus?!?! I withdraw my statement. Broken Truth- You are Right.
It's much more personal to believe that you are actually experiencing Jesus, not just some random relic made for you to think of Jesus.
not to be a wise ass, but i would also appreciate some justification of the hatred from the ancient church...
I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say, but I hold little justification for the past acts of the Church. Most dealings and teachings post-Vatican II I believe are entirely justifiable.

[yeat182]

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say, but I hold little justification for the past acts of the Church. Most dealings and teachings post-Vatican II I believe are entirely justifiable.

fair enough. the reason i don't like the chuch is due to the fact they have allowed these atrocities to continue for years, knowing fully what was going on in regards to the abuse cases, that is inexcusable for an organization that "preaches" (no pun intended) the very opposite. also, the fact that they have been taking billions of dollars anually from their worshipers...

[venus/bacchus]

fair enough. the reason i don't like the chuch is due to the fact they have allowed these atrocities to continue for years, knowing fully what was going on in regards to the abuse cases, that is inexcusable for an organization that "preaches" (no pun intended) the very opposite. also, the fact that they have been taking billions of dollars anually from their worshipers...
So you're mainly upset with the sexual abuse scandels? I can't say I fault you for that, those are terrible things. I've tried to justify it to you before (the actions of the church, not the individuals), so I think it'd be pointless to try again.

I do have to wonder why you would be appalled that they accept money from their worshippers. How else do you think they would stay in operation? If they can't accept money from the parishoners, how do would you like them to make money? Put money changers in the temple? Sell bronze calves? I'd hope you see the obvious flaw with that argument.

[scitsofreaky]

First off, they are accepting money from the worshippers, they are demanding it, and using the Bible to justify it.
Also, the catholic church is(I guess "was") probably the most corrupt organization ever. They managed to convince people that they could buy their way into heaven, that people must slaughter muslims to get the "holy land" back, and was the only church that I am aware of to actually have a literal empire that waged war! Oh, and let us not forget the Inquisitions; nothing like killin' a bunch of "heathens" just because they don't believe what you believe.
I wish that the damn Romans were able to just wipe out all the christians, it would have saved more lives.

[Bishop]

First off, they are accepting money from the worshippers, they are demanding it, and using the Bible to justify it.
Also, the catholic church is(I guess "was") probably the most corrupt organization ever. They managed to convince people that they could buy their way into heaven, that people must slaughter muslims to get the "holy land" back, and was the only church that I am aware of to actually have a literal empire that waged war! Oh, and let us not forget the Inquisitions; nothing like killin' a bunch of "heathens" just because they don't believe what you believe.
I wish that the damn Romans were able to just wipe out all the christians, it would have saved more lives.

No, it's called tithing and you don't have to do it. In fact at one point in the bible it says something along the lines of, if you don't want to give money to the church then don't. God would much rather accept a small donation that a person truly does want to give, rather than a large one that a rich person who gives because they're told too.

I'm not going to deny, that the Catholic church is very corrupt but do you really think that every single preacher in every single city is out molesting children? I highly highly doubt it. Most priests I have known have been men of great civility and grace. And yes, I do believe that in the past the Catholic church did some absoloutely horrible things. But your basing an amazing amount of people on the actions of a relatively few, and then most of the stuff your mentioning happened hundreds of years ago when society was a much more different place.

Also, the whole entire Crusades thing was the stupidest fucking thing ever. If any of the Catholic leaders read a thing about the Qu' Ran they'd read that Mohammed himself said that after he had died, that JESUS as in Jesus from the Christian bible, as in the one who the Jews are still expecting, as in the one that the Christians are all expecting. Hmm... all of them are expecting the same guy, there's just a dispute over whether he came before or his status as savior at that point in time. So in essence, yes, those leaders were dumbfucks and you can't really blame the people in the dark ages, they couldn't read, they couldn't write, they were just told that if they did what God wanted them too, their lives would become better. You ever wonder why those terrorist organizations got big over there in the middle east. Bingo! You guessed it! Because most of them are being kept in the dark and letting psychos interpret things like that for them and then they promise these people the world and heaven. And you can't honestly tell me that if in their position that you wouldn't do the same.

Oh, by the way, the Romans we're trying to wipe out all the Christians, it's just that once they saw that all of these people we're dying in peace and without a fight over and over and over again, it finally made them envious, because these people knew no fear of death which I'm sure is an attribute would've loved possession of.

But I'm on a rant and got really off base.

I feel better now.

[scitsofreaky]

Apparently they aren't waiting for Jesus, otherwise they wouldn't be waiting. The Jews are waiting for a warrior king, which Jesus was not. I am not sure what the Muslims are waiting for, but I don't think that they are waiting for anybody because they don't believe in prophecy, ie not waiting for a prophecied Messiah.
They didn't fight the Muslims to kill muslims, but to take back a worthless strip of land.
Oh, and speaking of off base, Isreal isn't the entire "promised land." Infact, the Isrealites never had possesion of the entire "promised land" which was supposed to be from the Nile to the Euphratese Rivers.

Also, they say that tithing is voluntary, but that does not mean that they don't lean on people to give.

[Bishop]

Apparently they aren't waiting for Jesus, otherwise they wouldn't be waiting. The Jews are waiting for a warrior king, which Jesus was not. I am not sure what the Muslims are waiting for, but I don't think that they are waiting for anybody because they don't believe in prophecy, ie not waiting for a prophecied Messiah.
They didn't fight the Muslims to kill muslims, but to take back a worthless strip of land.
Oh, and speaking of off base, Isreal isn't the entire "promised land." Infact, the Isrealites never had possesion of the entire "promised land" which was supposed to be from the Nile to the Euphratese Rivers.

Also, they say that tithing is voluntary, but that does not mean that they don't lean on people to give.

Well based on your complaining about the middle ages and such, it seems like Jesus does have a hell of a lot of warriors on his side.

I have a friend who is from Saudi Arabia and practices Muslim and he showed me the text where Mohamed said that Jesus will be the one coming back to finish his work.

They fought to take back the land because they believed it to be holy.

Yeah, instead the Egyptians took that.


Don't musicians lean on you to believe in certain ideals, don't companies lean on you to buy their products, didn't your parents lean on you to do your homework or do chores? Plus it's in the Bible and you're in a church, that's like going to a doctor and him suggesting you do something about your diet and you saying "Why are you trying to control my life?!"

[yeat182]

So you're mainly upset with the sexual abuse scandels? I can't say I fault you for that, those are terrible things. I've tried to justify it to you before (the actions of the church, not the individuals), so I think it'd be pointless to try again.

I do have to wonder why you would be appalled that they accept money from their worshippers. How else do you think they would stay in operation? If they can't accept money from the parishoners, how do would you like them to make money? Put money changers in the temple? Sell bronze calves? I'd hope you see the obvious flaw with that argument.


yeah, there is no point in going over the abuse scandal again.

as for the money issue, i have a problem with the fact that the church has turned into a bussiness. a person should be able to worship wherever, and whenever they want, they don't need a church, yet the Catholic Church demands their attendance as the only way to communicate with god, and they has the nerve to ask for their money on top of it all. not to mention the fact that the Catholic Church is probably the wealthiest organization in the world, asking people for their money seems a little unjustified to me. I think on the local level, accepting donations is ok, (like using the money for repairs to their church or something) but the way the church has used the money to accumilate wealth seems contadictory to their whole philosophy, or at least the philosophy they put out publically. then of course, claiming they can't afford to pay the people who have been abused is just absurd.

and just to clarify, i don't have a problem with people that want to worship god under the Catholic faith (or any faith for that matter) but i have a problem with the Catholic Church as an organization.

[yeat182]

I'm not going to deny, that the Catholic church is very corrupt but do you really think that every single preacher in every single city is out molesting children? I highly highly doubt it. Most priests I have known have been men of great civility and grace

i don't think anyone thinks every priest is like that, but the point is no priest should be like that. first it goes against everything they preach and second they are people of the community that are trusted and looked to for advice and understanding and to take advantage of that is horrible. it just seems to preach about how you can't sin or you'll end up in hell is a bit contradictory when you either molest children or cover it up.


.

[yeat182]

Well based on your complaining about the middle ages and such, it seems like Jesus does have a hell of a lot of warriors on his side.

I have a friend who is from Saudi Arabia and practices Muslim and he showed me the text where Mohamed said that Jesus will be the one coming back to finish his work.

mohammed was born 700 years after christ.

[theESCO]

as for the money issue, i have a problem with the fact that the church has turned into a bussiness. a person should be able to worship wherever, and whenever they want, they don't need a church, yet the Catholic Church demands their attendance as the only way to communicate with god, and they has the nerve to ask for their money on top of it all.

Would you expect anything less from an organization founded, for the most part, on corruption and lies? Organized religion was the single greatest money making scheme man ever invented.

[yeat182]

Would you expect anything less from an organization founded, for the most part, on corruption and lies? Organized religion was the single greatest money making scheme man ever invented.

i know, i agree with you.

[Bishop]

mohammed was born 700 years after christ.

Your point being?

[scitsofreaky]

The Jews are waiting for a Messiah that comes with his army, not one that existed over a mellenia later.
Plus it's in the Bible and you're in a church, that's like going to a doctor and him suggesting you do something about your diet and you saying "Why are you trying to control my life?!" So basically you are saying that whenever the church tells you to do something, you should do it for your own good. So it is voluntary, but if you don't, something bad is going to happen.
You have to also keep in mind that the Catholic church along with many other organizations do a lot of good when it comes to helping the less fortunate, and also helps bring meaning to many peoples lives. You don't have to go to church to do any of this. In fact, these happen out of the church all the time.
Would you expect anything less from an organization founded, for the most part, on corruption and lies? Organized religion was the single greatest money making scheme man ever invented. Hubbard (the founder of scientology) said it best: "If you want to become a millionaire, start a religion."

[yeat182]

Your point being?

jesus was long dead before mohammed was around.

[Bishop]

jesus was long dead before mohammed was around.

Okay... how would that stop him from predicting that Jesus will come back again to finish his work?

[yeat182]

Okay... how would that stop him from predicting that Jesus will come back again to finish his work?


because he was dead. people don't come back from the dead.

[Bishop]

The Jews are waiting for a Messiah that comes with his army, not one that existed over a mellenia later.

So basically you are saying that whenever the church tells you to do something, you should do it for your own good. So it is voluntary, but if you don't, something bad is going to happen.


Well they're going to be waiting for a while.

No, the point is that the Doctor isn't right all the time and neither is the Church. I've heard many preachers say that if you don't feel comfortable tithing than give time to a charitable organization or something of that sort. It's just the idea that if God has blessed you, then it is only right to share the blessing with others around you.

[Bishop]

because he was dead. people don't come back from the dead.

I'm guessing you're atheist?

[yeat182]

I'm guessing you're atheist?

not really. i just don't believe in zombies.

[venus/bacchus]

First off, they are accepting money from the worshippers, they are demanding it, and using the Bible to justify it.
Also, the catholic church is(I guess "was") probably the most corrupt organization ever. They managed to convince people that they could buy their way into heaven, that people must slaughter muslims to get the "holy land" back, and was the only church that I am aware of to actually have a literal empire that waged war! Oh, and let us not forget the Inquisitions; nothing like killin' a bunch of "heathens" just because they don't believe what you believe.
I wish that the damn Romans were able to just wipe out all the christians, it would have saved more lives.
I know of no Catholic Church that has ever "demanded" money from its worshippers. I only know of the Catholic Churches I've attended, but those sincerely need money and don't ask for much. If you can't, they understand, I don't know of any time they've repeatedly prodded.

Don't complain about what the Church did over 100 years ago. That doesn't justify the disintegration of them right now. Should Germany be disbanded right now for the persecution of the Jews in WWII?
yeah, there is no point in going over the abuse scandal again.

as for the money issue, i have a problem with the fact that the church has turned into a bussiness. a person should be able to worship wherever, and whenever they want, they don't need a church, yet the Catholic Church demands their attendance as the only way to communicate with god, and they has the nerve to ask for their money on top of it all. not to mention the fact that the Catholic Church is probably the wealthiest organization in the world, asking people for their money seems a little unjustified to me. I think on the local level, accepting donations is ok, (like using the money for repairs to their church or something) but the way the church has used the money to accumilate wealth seems contadictory to their whole philosophy, or at least the philosophy they put out publically. then of course, claiming they can't afford to pay the people who have been abused is just absurd.

and just to clarify, i don't have a problem with people that want to worship god under the Catholic faith (or any faith for that matter) but i have a problem with the Catholic Church as an organization.
The Church has always been a business. There were always church leaders designated to handle funds, all the way back to the days of the Pillars and Paul. Since the beginning, Peter and his followers never worked, they only travelled preaching, healing, and converting. Their only source of income was from the generosity of those whom they helped. In fact, in the early church it was seen as an incredibly noble thing. Apparently that is lost on today's society. I think you seem to be confusing the Church. To say that the Church is the only communication with God is not one of the tenents of Catholicism. It's exactly the opposite. Catholics preach that God can be experienced at home, at work, at the park, wherever. The only thing you could possibly be referring to is reconciliation. And that is only used as a more "official" representation of what you should do daily in your home. The idea that priests were the only line to God was tossed out long ago. Like I've said before, the Church may be extremely wealthy, but that is solely in net worth. It isn't in free cash. To actually obtain this money, they would have to sell all of their works of art, buildings, etc. that were all donated to them (or in some cases artists were commissioned). In essence, this is selling their history. This seems to be asking a lot when the parishoners are more than willing to donate a portion of their earnings.

I know you have no problem with Catholics, but many people do.
it just seems to preach about how you can't sin or you'll end up in hell...
Again, it seems as though you really don't understand or know the teaching of the Catholic Church. One of them being that everyone sins (including priests and the pope) and the only way to avoid hell would be to feel remorse for those sins. It isn't hypocritical at all, in fact, it's right in line.
mohammed was born 700 years after christ.
to be technical, Muhammed was born in 570
Would you expect anything less from an organization founded, for the most part, on corruption and lies? Organized religion was the single greatest money making scheme man ever invented.
Please, learn something about the early church. To say that the organization was founded on corruption and lies shows your incredible ignorance. If you could, attempt to justify that statement. Also, none of "inventors" of the major religions or their followers ever were well-off moneywise. It appears as though they failed at their "scheme." The Church only ended up making a lot of money when corruption became prevalent many centuries later.
not really. i just don't believe in zombies.
watch out or Jesus will eat your brains...

[Bishop]

not really. i just don't believe in zombies.

Psh, Lazarus yo.

Besides it's not said that Jesus is going to come up from the ground or anything like that, but return from the sky or something. I dunno. But it's pretty much believed in the three main western religions that Jesus is coming back.

[scitsofreaky]

Just because three religions, that all seem to share from one another, beleves something doesn't make it true.

[Bishop]

Just because three religions, that all seem to share from one another, beleves something doesn't make it true.

When did I ever say that?

[scitsofreaky]

You said But it's pretty much believed in the three main western religions that Jesus is coming back If you weren't implying that they were right, I am not sure what the point of saying this was.
Also, I believe he is refering to the resurection of Jesus, not when Jesus returns.

[Bishop]

If you weren't implying that they were right, I am not sure what the point of saying this was.
Also, I believe he is refering to the resurection of Jesus, not when Jesus returns.

Well I believe it to be true, but that's just me and my personal beliefs, hence my saying that.

And immediately after the resurrection of Jesus, he ascended into heaven. So unless heaven is in the ground I doubt that there'll be another resurrection.

[midnight_eyes]

people take this religion thing too far....the birth of religion was also the birth of capitalism...im not religious but i believe the bible was a giid book full of STORIES that are meant to keep people on a moral path, but they are stories and alagories that are taken too seriously, personally i dont feel bad about it the more people have been killed in the name of god more than anything else, and more than any other religion i would say def christianity...also really religious people are usually the biggest hypocrits, im not a big follower of the 1st reich(holy roman empire...catholic church) but u dont need a book and a gathering to have faith in something...i believe that just being a humble good person is good enough...cant say we didnt help the church though, this would have happened a long time ago, especially in the u.s. if we had made the church pay tax, they make enough.

[midnight_eyes]

also for people who dont know latin and whatnot...everytime the word heaven is used in the bible, the word literally means sky, so heaven isnt really spoken about as a place but a direction....peoples soul may go skyward when they die, but there is no real promise of a whole other world, but people should only have tolerance towards others religions and i do, i think there is one god, and it doesnt matter what u call him, the only thing proven to be omnipotent is mother nature and i have respect for that, im sure people watching this tsunami deal do now too.

[midnight_eyes]

i wasnt being prejudice...i dont hate catholics, i was just stating truth about the history of christianity...i dont care what religion anyone is...and you gave me this speech with hitler as your avatar.

[midnight_eyes]

like i said everyone is entitled to their beliefs i just think that there isnt really right and wrong, just perpective and the only truth is perspective....anyway, the reason that im not really religous is because the bible was written by people and u cant really trust in that, it was rewritten also and everytime with political agenda and capitalism in mind. i think it leads people in a good direction, thats all that matters...but i do hav a problem with religions like jahovas witness....i think it is them who believe that there is only room for like 1000 or so people in heaven so they go door to door and recruit for their religion which to me is like saying...believe in my religion...there isnt room for you in heaven but if you join on my account i wont be screwed...kinda funny...no hate though

[venus/bacchus]

people take this religion thing too far....the birth of religion was also the birth of capitalism...im not religious but i believe the bible was a giid book full of STORIES that are meant to keep people on a moral path, but they are stories and alagories that are taken too seriously, personally i dont feel bad about it the more people have been killed in the name of god more than anything else, and more than any other religion i would say def christianity...also really religious people are usually the biggest hypocrits, im not a big follower of the 1st reich(holy roman empire...catholic church) but u dont need a book and a gathering to have faith in something...i believe that just being a humble good person is good enough...cant say we didnt help the church though, this would have happened a long time ago, especially in the u.s. if we had made the church pay tax, they make enough.
what?? Religion goes back much farther than any form of goverment or economy. Religion goes back at least 75,000 years, a far stretch from the 16th century in which capitalism was born.

And Jesus and his followers most definitely did exist, they're far more than stories (although I can't say they're absolute truth) and to just shrug them off as so shows a lack of insight.

Also, the church does not "make" any money. In fact, there are churches closing all over the country for lack of funds.
also for people who dont know latin and whatnot...everytime the word heaven is used in the bible, the word literally means sky, so heaven isnt really spoken about as a place but a direction....peoples soul may go skyward when they die, but there is no real promise of a whole other world, but people should only have tolerance towards others religions and i do, i think there is one god, and it doesnt matter what u call him, the only thing proven to be omnipotent is mother nature and i have respect for that, im sure people watching this tsunami deal do now too.
I was also going to point out that none of the Bible was written in Latin, but Trevor beat me to it.

Anyway, if that's what you believe, I don't know what your beef with Catholicism is. The current Catholic Church preaches "the Church does not hold sole possession of salvation," which would mean they also respect other denominations and religions.

Also, mother nature isn't exactly omnipotent if we can harness and control her. She may show her fury sometimes, but we still have a completely grasp.
like i said everyone is entitled to their beliefs i just think that there isnt really right and wrong, just perpective and the only truth is perspective....anyway, the reason that im not really religous is because the bible was written by people and u cant really trust in that, it was rewritten also and everytime with political agenda and capitalism in mind. i think it leads people in a good direction, thats all that matters...but i do hav a problem with religions like jahovas witness....i think it is them who believe that there is only room for like 1000 or so people in heaven so they go door to door and recruit for their religion which to me is like saying...believe in my religion...there isnt room for you in heaven but if you join on my account i wont be screwed...kinda funny...no hate though
I would love to hear who reworte the Bible and why they did it. Obviously I'm not foolish enough to believe that there wasn't any "retouching," but I'm interested into what you actually think happened. You seem to have very grand visions for this.

[yeat182]

Well I believe it to be true, but that's just me and my personal beliefs, hence my saying that.

And immediately after the resurrection of Jesus, he ascended into heaven. So unless heaven is in the ground I doubt that there'll be another resurrection.

i meant people don't come back from the dead, whether they rise out of the ground or fall from the sky. as for the resurection of jesus, people don't come back from the dead and fly away, but that is just my belief. i respect the fact that people think otherwise, but you have to admit that using it as a basis for any arguement puts you in a weak position.

[scitsofreaky]

Well I believe it to be true, but that's just me and my personal beliefs, hence my saying that.

And immediately after the resurrection of Jesus, he ascended into heaven. So unless heaven is in the ground I doubt that there'll be another resurrection.
So, heaven is in the sky?
I meant "The resurrection" not another one, which, oddly enough is supposed to happen, but everybody except Jesus (since he isn't dead) is going to be raised to be judged.

GhostYouAre: catholics aren't a race. I respect the people (well, most of them), but I cannot respect many of the actions of the church. I hope that the church will continue to change, but it has not changed enough for me to respect it yet (it is just a personal opinion).