Americans talking to themselves [Archive]

Just_Insane

01/11/05, 02:32 PM

So you think reporters who are imbedded with troops have no idea whats going on around them? Or are you suggesting that they are flat out lying to us?

Of course they have an idea what's goin on just AROUND them. That's what i'm saying. They'll see how "evil iraqi terrorists" attack them "without any reason" when the U.S troups believe they're fighting for the Iraqies """freedom""". They'll see dead americans killed by the "evil mean" iraqies, they'll see the americans sending away the bombs and gun-shots , cheering maybe even. And that's what they'll report and that's what the world will see and know and act after. Unless the public read independent media, like the site that i posted e.t.c. Then you'll understand the reason to why the "evil iraqi terrorists" fight the americans, you'll see the dead children, woman, destroyed houses and split up families that the bombs and gun-shots caused, you won't see them cheering though. They'll most likely cry or scream something like: fucking americans!

So what i'm flat out suggesting is that they only report the side that your government (which is in war with this country ) wants you to see. Or do you perhaps see any slaughtered dead iraqie children and woman on the U.S. news!? Do you see the coffins of dead americans returning everyday!? Do you see the massacre in Fallujha with bodies piled up upon eachother on the streets!?

cal1082

01/11/05, 07:58 PM

Of course they have an idea what's goin on just AROUND them. That's what i'm saying. They'll see how "evil iraqi terrorists" attack them "without any reason" when the U.S troups believe they're fighting for the Iraqies """freedom""". They'll see dead americans killed by the "evil mean" iraqies, they'll see the americans sending away the bombs and gun-shots , cheering maybe even. And that's what they'll report and that's what the world will see and know and act after. Unless the public read independent media, like the site that i posted e.t.c. Then you'll understand the reason to why the "evil iraqi terrorists" fight the americans, you'll see the dead children, woman, destroyed houses and split up families that the bombs and gun-shots caused, you won't see them cheering though. They'll most likely cry or scream something like: fucking americans!

So what i'm flat out suggesting is that they only report the side that your government (which is in war with this country ) wants you to see. Or do you perhaps see any slaughtered dead iraqie children and woman on the U.S. news!? Do you see the coffins of dead americans returning everyday!? Do you see the massacre in Fallujha with bodies piled up upon eachother on the streets!?

Now I can't guarantee these sites arent owened by multi-millinonaires, but I'm pretty sure they're not. If I were to pull my information off the three websites above do you think that's fair, and would you believe the things I pull off as being legitimate?

http://www.newsmax.com/
http://www.townhall.com/
http://www.etherzone.com/

theESCO

01/11/05, 10:37 PM

I hate politics...I really do....

Just_Insane

01/12/05, 05:49 AM

Now I can't guarantee these sites arent owened by multi-millinonaires, but I'm pretty sure they're not. If I were to pull my information off the three websites above do you think that's fair, and would you believe the things I pull off as being legitimate?

http://www.newsmax.com/
http://www.townhall.com/
http://www.etherzone.com/

Well from what i understand all these websites are conservative websites and i think media should serve the average man and work as a tool of democracy for the people, for the truth and on the opresseds side, (not the oppressors). Which means to question the rich and the powerful e.t.c.

The ones in power of america are conservative and filthy rich and powerful, of course they don't want any change, they can only lose on change. They're not interested in progress. But however we live in an far from perfect and fair world i think we all can agree on if we just look around a little, and in a world like that i think conservative news fail and let down the average working man and the oppressed by protecting this world and these societies that create this.

However i'm not saying that nothing on those sites is true. Most of it is probably true. Just as it was true and is still true that the iraqis attack, hate and kill americans in Iraq and scream: fucking americans! .......however without knowing what they don't tell you, you can not help getting screwed. And this is the problem with conservative media i think, they stand on the oppressors side not the oppressed.

cal1082

01/12/05, 08:53 AM

Well from what i understand all these websites are conservative websites and i think media should serve the average man and work as a tool of democracy for the people, for the truth and on the opresseds side, (not the oppressors). Which means to question the rich and the powerful e.t.c.

The ones in power of america are conservative and filthy rich and powerful, of course they don't want any change, they can only lose on change. They're not interested in progress. But however we live in an far from perfect and fair world i think we all can agree on if we just look around a little, and in a world like that i think conservative news fail and let down the average working man and the oppressed by protecting this world and these societies that create this.

However i'm not saying that nothing on those sites is true. Most of it is probably true. Just as it was true and is still true that the iraqis attack, hate and kill americans in Iraq and scream: fucking americans! .......however without knowing what they don't tell you, you can not help getting screwed. And this is the problem with conservative media i think, they stand on the oppressors side not the oppressed.

Ok, there's no point in arguing here. If you truly believe only legit news comes from those that are against conservatives, you are a dumb ass. A dumb ass that would be beyond understanding logic, standards, and common knowledge. I would just pray that at some point you take a journalsim class on ethics, and see how wrong you are on the many different levels.

Poopy

01/12/05, 08:13 PM

Well from what i understand all these websites are conservative websites and i think media should serve the average man and work as a tool of democracy for the people, for the truth and on the opresseds side, (not the oppressors). Which means to question the rich and the powerful e.t.c.

The ones in power of america are conservative and filthy rich and powerful, of course they don't want any change, they can only lose on change. They're not interested in progress. But however we live in an far from perfect and fair world i think we all can agree on if we just look around a little, and in a world like that i think conservative news fail and let down the average working man and the oppressed by protecting this world and these societies that create this.

However i'm not saying that nothing on those sites is true. Most of it is probably true. Just as it was true and is still true that the iraqis attack, hate and kill americans in Iraq and scream: fucking americans! .......however without knowing what they don't tell you, you can not help getting screwed. And this is the problem with conservative media i think, they stand on the oppressors side not the oppressed.

Where do I begin?
If so many people in America are opressed, and conservatives are the opressors, how did the average man elect Bush? Is every average man so stupid that he could not make a decision that would benefit him the most when choosing who to vote fo?

Just_Insane

01/13/05, 07:37 AM

Where do I begin?
If so many people in America are opressed, and conservatives are the opressors, how did the average man elect Bush? Is every average man so stupid that he could not make a decision that would benefit him the most when choosing who to vote fo?

That's an very interesting question i must say. From what i've heard one of Bush's biggest voting cathegories were working class. The class that really don't benefit from Bush's politics. Think about that one dude.

Justin_stacy

01/13/05, 11:24 AM

That's an very interesting question i must say. From what i've heard one of Bush's biggest voting cathegories were working class. The class that really don't benefit from Bush's politics. Think about that one dude.

No offense, but you come from an oppressive society, a failing society by any standards......and yet you support there style of governing, one that oppresses the average man and forces them to be subservient to an over bearing government......so my only question is where do you get off implying that the American working class is "dumb"? Does the looking in ones own mirror analogy, not translate into Swedish?

Just_Insane

01/13/05, 11:40 AM

No offense, but you come from an oppressive society, a failing society by any standards......and yet you support there style of governing, one that oppresses the average man and forces them to be subservient to an over bearing government......so my only question is where do you get off implying that the American working class is "dumb"? Does the looking in ones own mirror analogy, not translate into Swedish?

We all come from an opressive society. And who the hell said i supported the swedish society!? Have you seen me saying that anywhere!? I think it sucks as well and is oppressive and i fight it to. However we were talking about the U.S. here since my post was about the Iraq war and Sweden isn't the worlds biggest imperialist empire in the whole world and wasn't the country that invaded Iraq and doesn't invade other sovereign countries (allthough the swedish prime-minister is a pussy right wing dude posing as an socialist, and he support the U.S).

And nowhere i implyed that the American working class is dumb, that's your interpretation. To understand what i implyfied i think you should go read about Chomskys propagandamodel. I can take a quote from one book about it which i have translated from swedish: "if dicatators would've been smarter they would've used the american(western) propaganda system". And keep thinking cause no ones dumb here, but when we vote for people who doesn't benefit us one bit, aren't you getting screwed somewhere along the line!?

cal1082

01/13/05, 11:58 AM

That's an very interesting question i must say. From what i've heard one of Bush's biggest voting cathegories were working class. The class that really don't benefit from Bush's politics. Think about that one dude.

Then again this goes back to the question that was asked........."If so many people in America are opressed, and conservatives are the opressors, how did the average man elect Bush?"

All you did was reiterate his question and you gave no explanation.

Poopy

01/13/05, 01:14 PM

Then again this goes back to the question that was asked........."If so many people in America are opressed, and conservatives are the opressors, how did the average man elect Bush?"

All you did was reiterate his question and you gave no explanation.

He has no explanation because he is wrong.
I think the average working man realized that lower taxes and less government spending would benfit him the most. I am not saying Bush is perfect but he was better than the alternative.

Poopy

01/13/05, 01:18 PM

That's an very interesting question i must say. From what i've heard one of Bush's biggest voting cathegories were working class. The class that really don't benefit from Bush's politics. Think about that one dude.

I have thought about it and...
I believe that the working class benefits from Bush. For the same reason everyone benefits from reduced taxes and decreased spending. People have more disposable income to invest, save, or spend on education.

I am an economics junky so I dont like to break up society into separate classes, rather I would like to see aggregate productivity of the nation as a whole go up. I definetly think Bush will do a better job at increasign aggregate productivity than Kerry would have.

Just_Insane

01/13/05, 01:49 PM

Then again this goes back to the question that was asked........."If so many people in America are opressed, and conservatives are the opressors, how did the average man elect Bush?"

All you did was reiterate his question and you gave no explanation.

Well yeah think about that one you to. Go read some books, go read about Chomsky's propagandamodel e.t.c. and come back in a week. Cause as i said that's an really interesting question that really should get people thinking. Thinking isn't what we're taught within our system though, and that's what i want you to do and believe we all should. Therefor i'm not gonna answer it yet, cause i see no point in that really.

yeat182

01/13/05, 01:51 PM

Just_Insane

01/13/05, 01:57 PM

so, basically you can't answer the question, and can't admit it.

Basically you're incapable of rational thinking therefor you need to be fed with all the answers so you can dismiss the ones you don't like and accept the ones that makes your life easier. Also you seem incapable of reading, cause i don't know you never actually read anything i recomend. Try it sometime. And once in your life you might actually come with some actual answers, the ones that come from asking questions and going to the bottom with them finding the answers for yourself, not from fox. And not just by posting like 50 posts a day in the politcs forum at a music website saying like; you're wrong. Also try rational thinking some time.

yeat182

01/13/05, 02:05 PM

Basically you're incapable of rational thinking therefor you need to be fed with all the answers so you can dismiss the ones you don't like and accept the ones that makes your life easier. Also you seem incapable of reading, cause i don't know you never actually read anything i recomend. Try it sometime. And once in your life you might actually come with some actual answers, the ones that come from asking questions and going to the bottom with them finding the answers for yourself, not from fox. And not just by posting like 50 posts a day in the politcs forum at a music website saying like; you're wrong. Also try rational thinking some time.

instead of recomending me a reading list, why dont' you answer the question you were asked, rather than tip toeing around it?

Just_Insane

01/13/05, 02:07 PM

I have thought about it and...
I believe that the working class benefits from Bush. For the same reason everyone benefits from reduced taxes and decreased spending. People have more disposable income to invest, save, or spend on education.

I am an economics junky so I dont like to break up society into separate classes, rather I would like to see aggregate productivity of the nation as a whole go up. I definetly think Bush will do a better job at increasign aggregate productivity than Kerry would have.

Hmm ok, YOU have thought. Cause i don't know to me it just sounds like your repeating the people in powers agenda. Sounds more like someone else has already thought for you, but ok i'd say go deeper and look deeper into it. Does everyone really benefit from reduced taxes and decreased spending!? Does the working class benefit from that e.t.c. or is it perhaps the multi-milonaire capitalists growing through that!? Also the ones in power really don't like to break up the society in classes, especially not capitalists (since no capitalistic system ever has been proven to do anything else then to make the clevages between people to increase). But i'm sorry unfortunately different classes is something that exists. There's a working class (working for the capitalists) and capitalists (with workers working for them and growing even bigger and richer with the help of the workers). That's just the way it is.

And well why don't you try to look at facts when it comes to Bush, how has the economy been e.t.c. Who are the people that are sent of to fight the war he started, are they rich capitalists!? Or is it the average american working man!? Also i didn't say anything about Kerry.

Poopy

01/13/05, 02:08 PM

Well yeah think about that one you to. Go read some books, go read about Chomsky's propagandamodel e.t.c. and come back in a week. Cause as i said that's an really interesting question that really should get people thinking. Thinking isn't what we're taught within our system though, and that's what i want you to do and believe we all should. Therefor i'm not gonna answer it yet, cause i see no point in that really.

Thinking and reading are great but at sometime you have to form an opinion on something. Otherwise you are worthless, just a mirror for "old" ideas and theories like the 1988 book you speak of. Now that the internet, cable news, talk radio, and newspapers all can choose what news to report I dont think Chomsky's book applies. People have access to news in ways that Chomsky never dreammed of when he came up with his model.

Just_Insane

01/13/05, 02:09 PM

instead of recomending me a reading list, why dont' you answer the question you were asked, rather than tip toeing around it?

Cause i figured if you'd actually do some reading and own thinking maybe you would actually come with something yourself instead of 4500 meaningless useless posts.

yeat182

01/13/05, 02:09 PM

And well why don't you try to look at facts when it comes to Bush, how has the economy been e.t.c.

bush doesn't control the economy.

Who are the people that are sent of to fight the war he started, are they rich capitalists!? Or is it the average american working man!?

volunteers.

Just_Insane

01/13/05, 02:11 PM

bush doesn't control the economy.

volunteers.

4551

yeat182

01/13/05, 02:12 PM

Cause i figured if you'd actually do some reading and own thinking maybe you would actually come with something yourself instead of 4500 meaningless useless posts.

so, are you going to answer the question, or continue to beat me over the head with the virtues of chomsky?

yeat182

01/13/05, 02:13 PM

4551

don't let the facts get in the way of your arguement...

Just_Insane

01/13/05, 02:13 PM

don't let the facts get in the way of your arguement...

4553

Poopy

01/13/05, 02:14 PM

Hmm ok, YOU have thought. Cause i don't know to me it just sounds like your repeating the people in powers agenda. Sounds more like someone else has already thought for you, but ok i'd say go deeper and look deeper into it. Does everyone really benefit from reduced taxes and decreased spending!? Does the working class benefit from that e.t.c. or is it perhaps the multi-milonaire capitalists growing through that!? Also the ones in power really don't like to break up the society in classes, especially not capitalists (since no capitalistic system ever has been proven to do anything else then to make the clevages between people to increase). But i'm sorry unfortunately different classes is something that exists. There's a working class (working for the capitalists) and capitalists (with workers working for them and growing even bigger and richer with the help of the workers). That's just the way it is.

And well why don't you try to look at facts when it comes to Bush, how has the economy been e.t.c. Who are the people that are sent of to fight the war he started, are they rich capitalists!? Or is it the average american working man!? Also i didn't say anything about Kerry.

Yes! that is how you increase productivity. Anyone who knows anything about economics will tell you that. The "Billionaire Capitalists" you speak of provide billions of jobs for the "working class" the more money they make, the more jobs they provide. Most people in America who are millionaires and billionares are "self made" meaning they did not inherit their money. That is how capitalism helps the "working class" it provides oppurtunity and incentive to do better. People who are rich are not rich at the expense of other people. In America people are free to take any job they want and for the most part the free market determines their wages or salary. If the working class were really getting screwed they would not work for the "Billionaire Capitalists" .

yeat182

01/13/05, 02:18 PM

4553

........."If so many people in America are opressed, and conservatives are the opressors, how did the average man elect Bush?

still waiting for an answer

Just_Insane

01/13/05, 02:19 PM

Thinking and reading are great but at sometime you have to form an opinion on something. Otherwise you are worthless, just a mirror for "old" ideas and theories like the 1988 book you speak of. Now that the internet, cable news, talk radio, and newspapers all can choose what news to report I dont think Chomsky's book applies. People have access to news in ways that Chomsky never dreammed of when he came up with his model.

What!?

Yeah that's U.S. media haven't once chosen to post anything by Chomsky or let him on the air. However media outside of the U.S. does, which is weird indeed. Isn't it!? Also Chomsky actually has a network of contacts all around the world submitting, translating news and annalysing stuff. And also from this one line: "People have access to news in ways that Chomsky never dreammed of when he came up with his model", i can tell you haven't read the model.

Just_Insane

01/13/05, 02:20 PM

........."If so many people in America are opressed, and conservatives are the opressors, how did the average man elect Bush?

still waiting for an answer

ask fox man.

Poopy

01/13/05, 02:21 PM

What!?

Yeah that's U.S. media haven't once chosen to post anything by Chomsky or let him on the air. However media outside of the U.S. does, which is weird indeed. Isn't it!? Also Chomsky actually has a network of contacts all around the world submitting, translating news and annalysing stuff. And also from this one line: "People have access to news in ways that Chomsky never dreammed of when he came up with his model", i can tell you haven't read the model.

So you are saying, cable news channels, and the internet were widespread at the time the model was published?

yeat182

01/13/05, 02:21 PM

ask fox man.

we're asking you. you've supposedly read a book, so why don't you use that knowledge to enlighten all us capatalists?

Just_Insane

01/13/05, 02:24 PM

So you are saying, cable news channels, and the internet were widespread at the time the model was published?

I'm saying it's not relevant for the propagandamodel. You could have one news channel you could have a billion.

Poopy

01/13/05, 02:25 PM

America has her own ideas about who her enemies are and I am glad she has stood against them even without global support. I believe 10 or 20 years down the road, Bush will be respected for changing the way we combat terrorism.

Poopy

01/13/05, 02:28 PM

I'm saying it's not relevant for the propagandamodel. You could have one news channel you could have a billion.

In theory that may be true, but not in real life. Your view is stunted by your political bias just as mine is.

Just_Insane

01/13/05, 02:30 PM

we're asking you. you've supposedly read a book, so why don't you use that knowledge to enlighten all us capatalists?

Cause without own thinking and understanding for what created your thinking/not thinking, acting e.t.c. It's useless, and you won't get anyhting else then screwed. You don't believe me anyway cause i'm not foxnews. You gotta enlightened yourself, it makes you grow instead of just swallowing what the one you wanna listen to says. That just makes you a puppet on string kinda.

Bikeage

01/13/05, 02:32 PM

frankly, i think the swedish government is better than the us (and ya, i'm swedish)

also, i wish i had a gun and a license to kill.

Just_Insane

01/13/05, 02:34 PM

In theory that may be true, but not in real life. Your view is stunted by your political bias just as mine is.

Really!?

Well why don't you find out about that yourself instead?

Put it into real life, go read some examples (new, recent if you want) when Chomsky himself infact does that. And for real find out if he's right and if it isn't?

yeat182

01/13/05, 02:34 PM

Cause without own thinking and understanding for what created your thinking/not thinking, acting e.t.c. It's useless, and you won't get anyhting else then screwed. You don't believe me anyway cause i'm not foxnews. You gotta enlightened yourself, it makes you grow instead of just swallowing what the one you wanna listen to says. That just makes you a puppet on string kinda.

i dont believe you because you haven't answered the question. you want me to enlighten myself, but i'm not the one that said bush screws the little guy, while ignoring the fact that the little guy is the one that put him in office. you are caught in a contradiction and can neither answer the question or admit you were wrong.

Just_Insane

01/13/05, 02:38 PM

i dont believe you because you haven't answered the question. you want me to enlighten myself, but i'm not the one that said bush screws the little guy, while ignoring the fact that the little guy is the one that put him in office. you are caught in a contradiction and can neither answer the question or admit you were wrong.

You don't have to worry man, it's ok. Fox will answer the question for you by not asking it.

And yes it is indeed a contradiction, you're right about that one.

yeat182

01/13/05, 03:06 PM

You don't have to worry man, it's ok. Fox will answer the question for you by not asking it.

And yes it is indeed a contradiction, you're right about that one.

so, thats a no on answering the question?

cal1082

01/13/05, 03:14 PM

Just_Insane

01/13/05, 03:34 PM

so, thats a no on answering the question?

You want answers, search for them! And stop just following, accepting and swallowing, that won't get you any answers, no matter if it comes from me or from mainstream media in the end all it leads to is that people can screw you and you're nothing more then a puppet on a string.

Although there's a big difference between me and the mainstream media to say the least haha, i don't earn millions on reading, thinking, discussing, writing and searching answers and doing this...infact the only thing it does is take up a shitload of my time and it fucks up my life, neither do i have any power, however i'm schooled by this system to though just like you(although the american one is more capitalistic) and just like the mainstream media journalists and newsreporters...but i've broken lose cause i've understood what controlled my thinking, actions and created who i once was, however Chomsky is not schooled by this system really and that's the exact reason why they'd never let him on american media.

And no just following and swallowing won't get you any answers, however it'll make your life a lot easier. And i honestly think that's what you want and don't want any answers judging from what you have to come with in your 4560 posts. Keep following and for god sakes do not question anything or the beliefs you swallow/swallowed. Oh and stay away from books and own independent different thinking and ideas as well.

cal1082

01/13/05, 03:38 PM

You want answers, search for them! And stop just following, accepting and swallowing, that won't get you any answers, no matter if it comes from me or from mainstream media in the end all it leads to is that people can screw you and you're nothing more then a puppet on a string.

Although there's a big difference between me and the mainstream media to say the least haha, i don't earn millions on reading, thinking, discussing, writing and searching answers and doing this...infact the only thing it does is take up a shitload of my time and it fucks up my life, neither do i have any power, however i'm schooled by this system to though just like you(although the american one is more capitalistic) and just like the mainstream media journalists and newsreporters...but i've broken lose cause i've understood what controlled my thinking, actions and created who i once was, however Chomsky is not schooled by this system really and that's the exact reason why they'd never let him on american media.

And no just following and swallowing won't get you any answers, however it'll make your life a lot easier. And i honestly think that's what you want and don't want any answers judging from what you have to come with in your 4560 posts. Keep following and for god sakes do not question anything or the beliefs you swallow/swallowed. Oh and stay away from books and own independent different thinking and ideas as well.

lol, lol, lol, lol, lol. :wink3:

"His undergraduate and graduate years were spent at the University of Pennsylvania where he received his PhD in linguistics in 1955."

http://web.mit.edu/linguistics/www/biography/noambio.html

Yeah he wasnt schooled by this system, he was school by the University of Pennsylvania!!!!!!!
You're defintely swallowing something, but I promise you it's not answers.

Just_Insane

01/13/05, 03:48 PM

Pointing out the funny.......

Just_Insane (appropriate name acutally) keeps saying...."think for yourself".....etc......etc.....but has anyone notice his only source for any argument here is Chomsky? So everyone go out.....think for yourselves......and read Chomsky. Forget about people like Hobbes, Burke, Rousseau, Marx, Locke, Mill, etc........

Only through reading Chomsky will we be able to dodge, and avoid obvious easy questions like the one below.

"........."If so many people in America are opressed, and conservatives are the opressors, how did the average man elect Bush?"

You're right. The only thing i'm helping my argument with is Chomsky. Cause that's the book that i'm currently reading and i love Chomsky and it's an awesome book, he's my favorite writer and political analyst. Also he shares my basic views, although he has 1 million facts to back them up with which i don't, and he's 76 years old and has worked all his life with it. Rousseau, Marx, Locke, Mill e.t.c. you read in school, Chomsky you don't.

And i haven't avoided anything, i could answer it. Actually i think most people with any leftish thinking at all in them could answer it and EVERYONE (right, left, center, apathetic) who wanted to answer it could answer it. But however i think getting you to think and search for some real answers for yourselves will do so much more here.

Lueda Alia

01/13/05, 03:52 PM

He has no explanation because he is wrong.
I think the average working man realized that lower taxes and less government spending would benfit him the most. I am not saying Bush is perfect but he was better than the alternative.
But lowering the taxes while you're at WAR... isn't a very good idea. at least *I* don't think it is.

Just_Insane

01/13/05, 03:55 PM

lol, lol, lol, lol, lol. :wink3:

"His undergraduate and graduate years were spent at the University of Pennsylvania where he received his PhD in linguistics in 1955."

http://web.mit.edu/linguistics/www/biography/noambio.html

Yeah he wasnt schooled by this system, he was school by the University of Pennsylvania!!!!!!!
You're defintely swallowing something, but I promise you it's not answers.

Yeah man you're right, however you're the one that just swallowed it like you always do. Cause if you would've looked more into it (which you never do) and maybe read a book or something like i don't know, intellectual!? You would've found out that he never actually studied or was at the actual institution known as university, he was "outside" it and studied on distance on his own with a little minority group with similair interests. But still he managed to graduate there somehow, i've read an article about that and it tells it in detail in the book. Now who did get screwed, again. !?

The book is called "Chomsky a political biography by the way" :wink3:

cal1082

01/13/05, 03:56 PM

You're right. The only thing i'm helping my argument with is Chomsky. Cause that's the book that i'm currently reading and i love Chomsky and it's an awesome book, he's my favorite writer and political analyst. Also he shares my basic views, although he has 1 million facts to back them up with which i don't, and he's 76 years old and has worked all his life with it. Rousseau, Marx, Locke, Mill e.t.c. you read in school, Chomsky you don't.

And i haven't avoided anything, i could answer it. Actually i think most people with any leftish thinking at all in them could answer it and EVERYONE (right, left, center, apathetic) who wanted to answer it could answer it. But however i think getting you to think and search for some real answers for yourselves will do so much more here.

Rouseau, Marx, Locke, Mill, Hobbes etc...... are some of the most respected social-political anaylists in the world. You reasoning for tossing them aside simply because you read them in school is absurd.

Have you read rousseau, mill, burke, or hobbes?

Just_Insane

01/13/05, 03:58 PM

Rouseau, Marx, Locke, Mill, Hobbes etc...... are some of the most respected social-political anaylists in the world. You reasoning for tossing them aside simply because you read them in school is absurd.

Have you read rousseau, mill, burke, or hobbes?

Yeah i'm going to school, and have been for 12 years. Currently i'm studying on the social science program on my 3'rd year.

cal1082

01/13/05, 04:00 PM

Yeah man you're right, however you're the one that just swallowed it like you always do. Cause if you would've looked more into it (which you never do) and maybe read a book or something like i don't know, intellectual!? You would've found out that he never actually studied or was at the actual institution known as university, he was "outside" it and studied on distance on his own with a little minority group with similair interests. But still he managed to graduate there somehow, i've read an article about that and it tells it in detail in the book. Now who did get screwed, again. !?

The book is called "Chomsky a political biography by the way" :wink3:

He was still schooled at the University of Penn.. I dont care if he studied with an outside group or not. Fact of the matter is that's where he was schooled and that's where he learned. And as a matter of fact he even taught there!!!!! So not only was he schooled there, he taught there!!!!!! He really does learn out of the system.......... :lol2:

cal1082

01/13/05, 04:02 PM

Yeah i'm going to school, and have been for 12 years. Currently i'm studying on the social science program on my 3'rd year.

I didnt ask if you were in school. Have you read any of Hobbes, Rousseau, Mill, or Burke? Now I will say it's not as if you have to read these famous theorists to understand being rational, but I find it rather stupid for you to tell someone to read 1 Chomsky book if they wish to 'think for themselves'

Just_Insane

01/13/05, 04:25 PM

He was still schooled at the University of Penn.. I dont care if he studied with an outside group or not. Fact of the matter is that's where he was schooled and that's where he learned. And as a matter of fact he even taught there!!!!! So not only was he schooled there, he taught there!!!!!! He really does learn out of the system.......... :lol2:

Uuuh yeah man. You need to believe he was that to save your argument cause it's kinda going to hell with that so alright keep on believing that and don't look closer into it (like you never do). Although the truth is for the once interested that he studied in an outside group outside the institution studying on there own what they wanted to study and how they wanted it, with different interests. And yes he taught there temporary, in language to earn some money. And his political and linguistic career aren't the same. Next time instead of doing an quick google search to find the facts you need to not look stupid in this conversation go do some real research and actually look really into things.

And for the other post. I said Rousseau, Burke, Mill e.t.c. you read in SCHOOL and i'm going to school and have been for 12 years, which means i've read some of those, duh. Didn't really interest or fascinate me though. Also that Chomsky book annalyses and creates understanding for the structures and institutions of society that create, control, limit your thinking and acting, that's why i think you all should read it. There's not many books or writers that can do that that good, or even try to do that.

cal1082

01/13/05, 04:32 PM

Uuuh yeah man. You need to believe he was that to save your argument cause it's kinda going to hell with that so alright keep on believing that and don't look closer into it (like you never do). Although the truth is for the once interested that he studied in an outside group outside the institution studying on there own what they wanted to study and how they wanted it, with different interests. And yes he taught there temporary, in language to earn some money. And his political and linguistic career aren't the same. Next time instead of doing an quick google search to find the facts you need to not look stupid in this conversation go do some real research and actually look really into things.

You're agrument is he wasn't schooled in our system..........he was plain and simple. He even taught inside the system (that he didnt learn under).

And for the other post. I said Rousseau, Burke, Mill e.t.c. you read in SCHOOL and i'm going to school and have been for 12 years, which means i've read some of those, duh. Didn't really interest or fascinate me though.

I'd like to know how you think Hobbes, Mill, or Rousseau would react to the question of opression? What do you think? Let's just look at Hobbes. What do you think he'd say about conservative and opression?

Poopy

01/13/05, 08:53 PM

But lowering the taxes while you're at WAR... isn't a very good idea. at least *I* don't think it is.

Its ALWAYS a good idea.

Poopy

01/13/05, 08:58 PM

Uuuh yeah man. You need to believe he was that to save your argument cause it's kinda going to hell with that so alright keep on believing that and don't look closer into it (like you never do). Although the truth is for the once interested that he studied in an outside group outside the institution studying on there own what they wanted to study and how they wanted it, with different interests. And yes he taught there temporary, in language to earn some money. And his political and linguistic career aren't the same. Next time instead of doing an quick google search to find the facts you need to not look stupid in this conversation go do some real research and actually look really into things.

And for the other post. I said Rousseau, Burke, Mill e.t.c. you read in SCHOOL and i'm going to school and have been for 12 years, which means i've read some of those, duh. Didn't really interest or fascinate me though. Also that Chomsky book annalyses and creates understanding for the structures and institutions of society that create, control, limit your thinking and acting, that's why i think you all should read it. There's not many books or writers that can do that that good, or even try to do that.

If you wanna play the dropping names game, you should read "Free to Choose" by Milton Freeman. I guatantee you will hate it based on your political bias, but its important that you understand the other viewpoint out there. You cant cling for dear life to Chomsky and talk down to me by saying your are too good to answer a simple question. I think you want what you believe to be true so badly that you have blinders on to any thoughts outside of your dominamt paradigm. At least I have accepted your idea and have backed up any problems I have with it .

Justin_stacy

01/13/05, 11:07 PM

We all come from an opressive society. And who the hell said i supported the swedish society!? Have you seen me saying that anywhere!?

Nowhere, that was a judgement call on my part; Your rhetoric implies that you disagree with the ideas of; self determination, self responsibility, self reliance, and self independence....and support a more institutionalized dependency styled society......so I just assumed that you enjoyed a government, such as yours, that embodies similar principles......again just a judgement call on my part.

I think it sucks as well and is oppressive and i fight it to.

Oppression, in a democracy, is self imposed......it is ones own reliance on government for every aspect of life, that creates the ability for them to "oppress." Thinking about that might help you understand why so many "working classer's" chose to put their votes with someone you assume doesn't support them...

And nowhere i implyed that the American working class is dumb, that's your interpretation....

That's an very interesting question i must say. From what i've heard one of Bush's biggest voting cathegories were working class. The class that really don't benefit from Bush's politics. Think about that one dude.

This is implying stupidity.......Or at the very least questionable intelligence. But then again words only have as much value, as the one saying them.....

To understand what i implyfied i think you should go read about Chomskys propagandamodel. I can take a quote from one book about it which i have translated from swedish: "if dicatators would've been smarter they would've used the american(western) propaganda system". !?

That's irony.....A propagandist developing a theory to explain "propaganda".......

And since you so kindly offered me some reading, although I’ve read this "ilk’s" work before (its always good to understand where your enemy is coming from), I though I might offer you one....on a similar subject of course...
The Anti-Chomsky Reader
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/189355497X/qid=1105685240/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/102-3225585-1625724?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

And just so you can see that we do share some similarities, all be it for different reasons....I might also offer this one.
A Republic, Not an Empire: Reclaiming America's Destiny
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0895261596/qid=1105686766/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/102-3225585-1625724?v=glance&s=books
*Note that I didn't disagree with you on the subject of your link, but on the ignorance.….nay, bias of your statements.

And keep thinking cause no ones dumb here, but when we vote for people who doesn't benefit us one bit, aren't you getting screwed somewhere along the line!?

It depends on ones concept of "benefit".....one mans benefit, can be another mans fear.....

Just_Insane

01/14/05, 03:53 AM

Lueda Alia

01/14/05, 04:40 AM

Its ALWAYS a good idea.
that shows just how much you know. but hey, as long as you're paying lower taxes, then who cares about the rest, eh?

yeat182

01/14/05, 07:39 AM

You want answers, search for them! And stop just following, accepting and swallowing, that won't get you any answers, no matter if it comes from me or from mainstream media in the end all it leads to is that people can screw you and you're nothing more then a puppet on a string.

Although there's a big difference between me and the mainstream media to say the least haha, i don't earn millions on reading, thinking, discussing, writing and searching answers and doing this...infact the only thing it does is take up a shitload of my time and it fucks up my life, neither do i have any power, however i'm schooled by this system to though just like you(although the american one is more capitalistic) and just like the mainstream media journalists and newsreporters...but i've broken lose cause i've understood what controlled my thinking, actions and created who i once was, however Chomsky is not schooled by this system really and that's the exact reason why they'd never let him on american media.

And no just following and swallowing won't get you any answers, however it'll make your life a lot easier. And i honestly think that's what you want and don't want any answers judging from what you have to come with in your 4560 posts. Keep following and for god sakes do not question anything or the beliefs you swallow/swallowed. Oh and stay away from books and own independent different thinking and ideas as well.

i know why people voted for bush. i want you to answer the question you were asked.

yeat182

01/14/05, 07:40 AM

But lowering the taxes while you're at WAR... isn't a very good idea. at least *I* don't think it is.

well, if you don't think its a good idea....someone call the white house!

yeat182

01/14/05, 07:42 AM

Uuuh yeah man. You need to believe he was that to save your argument cause it's kinda going to hell with that so alright keep on believing that and don't look closer into it (like you never do). Although the truth is for the once interested that he studied in an outside group outside the institution studying on there own what they wanted to study and how they wanted it, with different interests. And yes he taught there temporary, in language to earn some money. And his political and linguistic career aren't the same. Next time instead of doing an quick google search to find the facts you need to not look stupid in this conversation go do some real research and actually look really into things.

And for the other post. I said Rousseau, Burke, Mill e.t.c. you read in SCHOOL and i'm going to school and have been for 12 years, which means i've read some of those, duh. Didn't really interest or fascinate me though. Also that Chomsky book annalyses and creates understanding for the structures and institutions of society that create, control, limit your thinking and acting, that's why i think you all should read it. There's not many books or writers that can do that that good, or even try to do that.

which ones did you read? specifically?

yeat182

01/14/05, 07:48 AM

Also of course Bush's politics doesn't benefit the average american working class man.

that isn't true.

Bush an extreme fundamental capitalist, capitalist politics benefit capitalists.

it is a capatalits society...

Check how much Bush spent on his election campaign e.t.c. and who paid for it, he didn't win because he had ideas he won because he had the money backing him up.

no, he won because people didn't like kerry. didn't matter how much money he spent, he was the incumbent and the incumbent rarely loses.

Also how the fuck could starting a war sending people(average americans mostly, cause multi-capitalists like Bush himself don't fight in wars)

he sent volunteers to Iraq.

of to war getting killed coming back in coffins every day, spending all the money on an unjustified oil war.

oil war? thats a good one...

Also look what he's done to the economy, is that good for the average american working man!?

pretty good, yeah.

You seriously don't have to do much research to see who really benefits on Bush's politics, the oil companies, the huge multi-national companies, the extremely rich capitalists. The poor and hungry on the street can go and "eat war", also how the hell does no social security help them...which lowering taxes leads to. However lowering taxes help the huge capitalistic companies...

lowering taxes helps everyone.

yeat182

01/14/05, 07:49 AM

that shows just how much you know. but hey, as long as you're paying lower taxes, then who cares about the rest, eh?

are you serious?

Just_Insane

01/14/05, 08:53 AM

that isn't true.

it is a capatalits society...

no, he won because people didn't like kerry. didn't matter how much money he spent, he was the incumbent and the incumbent rarely loses.

he sent volunteers to Iraq.

oil war? thats a good one...

pretty good, yeah.

lowering taxes helps everyone.

Hmm i dunno should i laugh or should i cry and feel sorry for you. Or maybe i should just keep counting, yeah i'll do that; 4572...

I really see no point in even trying to argue with you, you never have anything to come with. And you don't have to answer this as quick as possible as you always do to save your little world and reputation or some shit, i dunno what's up with you really. Actually say something relevant based on facts and reality for once not just what you've been told and swallowed cause it came from fox news and then you go something as ignorant like "uuuh no Bush isn't a capitalist and he has fixed our economy". If you wanna believe that then fine, do that, i don't care. You're not listening anyway.

Infact i believe you'd make a good nazi/fascist leader, Hitler had "all the answers" to, directly.
Too bad it lead to millions of dead people since they weren't true and based on real research and facts and people swallowed them just like you. The economical situation at the time was terrible aswell and there they had one man with all the answers and solutions; kill all the jews, blacks, handicapped, homosexuals and whoever disagreed and didn't follow, also lets start a war! yey! Also they had an huge and very successful propaganda system which helped Hitler to kill millions of people. And let me come with an Chomsky quote here; "if dictators would've been smarter they would've used the american/western propaganda system". Go read some history.

And now an normal and rational thinking human would've seen and recognized the parallels. But i don't expect you to do that. Most likely you'll quote one line out of my text out of it's context and totally misunderstand it and say it's wrong cause the opposite is right. And why "it is!" right you don't know.

See now still i was so nice and took time to write this and wrote and actual reply anyway,
hooray for me!

yeat182

01/14/05, 09:01 AM

Hmm i dunno should i laugh or should i cry and feel sorry for you. Or maybe i should just keep counting, yeah i'll do that; 4572...

I really see no point in even trying to argue with you, you never have anything to come with. And you don't have to answer this as quick as possible as you always do to save your little world and reputation or some shit, i dunno what's up with you really. Actually say something relevant based on facts and reality for once not just what you've been told and swallowed cause it came from fox news and then you go something as ignorant like "uuuh no Bush isn't a capitalist and he has fixed our economy". If you wanna believe that then fine, do that, i don't care. You're not listening anyway.

Infact i believe you'd make a good nazi/fascist leader, Hitler had "all the answers" to, directly.
Too bad it lead to millions of dead people since they weren't true and based on real research and facts and people swallowed them just like you. The economical situation at the time was terrible aswell and there they had one man with all the answers and solutions; kill all the jews, blacks, handicapped, homosexuals and whoever disagreed and didn't follow, also lets start a war! yey! Also they had an huge and very successful propaganda system which helped Hitler to kill millions of people. And let me come with an Chomsky quote here; "if dictators would've been smarter they would've used the american/western propaganda system". Go read some history.

And now an normal and rational thinking human would've seen and recognized the parallels. But i don't expect you to do that. Most likely you'll quote one line out of my text out of it's context and totally misunderstand it and say it's wrong cause the opposite is right. And why "it is!" right you don't know.

See now still i was so nice and took time to write this and wrote and actual reply anyway,
hooray for me!

only one chomsky reference? did you finally get a new book?

Just_Insane

01/14/05, 09:06 AM

only one chomsky reference? did you finally get a new book?

Haha you, hmm how long was that....5 minutes!? after i posted my post. I must be like one of those that see into the future, i've got super natural powers :wink3: . I'm loosing the count, 4573 , i think it is now though. Don't worry you don't have much of a reputation to save anyway.

yeat182

01/14/05, 09:50 AM

Haha you, hmm how long was that....5 minutes!? after i posted my post. I must be like one of those that see into the future, i've got super natural powers :wink3: . I'm loosing the count, 4573 , i think it is now though. Don't worry you don't have much of a reputation to save anyway.

i'm not to worried about my reputation.

Poopy

01/14/05, 01:13 PM

that shows just how much you know. but hey, as long as you're paying lower taxes, then who cares about the rest, eh?

The rest meaning who MorningStar? The other people who are paying less taxes?

cal1082

01/14/05, 01:30 PM

i'm not to worried about my reputation.

:lol2:

Lueda Alia

01/14/05, 02:14 PM

The rest meaning who MorningStar? The other people who are paying less taxes?
you really just don't get it.

Love As Arson

01/14/05, 02:34 PM

cal1082

01/14/05, 02:55 PM

Just_Insane

01/14/05, 03:37 PM

Higher taxes and bigger government benefit everyone. However, for bigger government to benefit the people, the people must be in control of the governement. This can be done one of two ways, through a slow process of building up a party for the people, or through a revolution. I tend to favor the revolution option.

I like you dude! However an revolution as it looks now would be useless and would never work, it'd just be chaos. Revolution starts with education and spreading of ideas. Just like the anarchists/syndicalists started to do in the later 1900-century which lead to that they controlled half Spain during the Spanish civil war in the 1930's. Too bad the capitalists joined in with the fascists though, and the communists started fighting the anarchists.

Just_Insane

01/14/05, 04:01 PM

You might want to think about what you said here........... About 50% of Americans have money in the stock market (<---- making them capitalists).

That's an interesting point of view. What i think this shows is that people aren't too aware of their class in america. Same thing here kinda, although not as much maybe...yet. My dad is working class, however he's in an stock market club (which i always use to point out the contradiction in for him). He buys coca cola, mcdonalds food aswell as supports the huge multi-national corporations here. And he even has stocks in companies that need him to work longer, get lower paid and probably need him or one of his co-workers fired, to make more profit and make the stocks go up...or down ( i dunno), so they can keep growing. But he would never in his life vote for an capitalist party he says, and when i ask why, he simply says; cause they don't represent my class. Another thing i find interesting is the word "middle class". The definition of the word working class is like; the ones who work for the capitalist. While the capitalist is the one in control of the factories e.t.c. with workers working for him. So what the fuck is the middle class!? where does that come from!? What the hell do they do!?

cal1082

01/14/05, 05:21 PM

That's an interesting point of view. What i think this shows is that people aren't too aware of their class in america. Same thing here kinda, although not as much maybe...yet. My dad is working class, however he's in an stock market club (which i always use to point out the contradiction in for him). He buys coca cola, mcdonalds food aswell as supports the huge multi-national corporations here. And he even has stocks in companies that need him to work longer, get lower paid and probably need him or one of his co-workers fired, to make more profit and make the stocks go up...or down ( i dunno), so they can keep growing. But he would never in his life vote for an capitalist party he says, and when i ask why, he simply says; cause they don't represent my class. Another thing i find interesting is the word "middle class". The definition of the word working class is like; the ones who work for the capitalist. While the capitalist is the one in control of the factories e.t.c. with workers working for him. So what the fuck is the middle class!? where does that come from!? What the hell do they do!?

It's not a point of view, it's the truth

Justin_stacy

01/14/05, 08:59 PM

Higher taxes and bigger government benefit everyone. .

you must be joking.......right?

Love As Arson

01/14/05, 09:20 PM

you must be joking.......right?
No, I am not.

MidniteVulture

01/14/05, 09:29 PM

Love As Arson

01/14/05, 09:33 PM

Having other people control your life is good for you?

Yeahhhhhhh ok.
I don't subscribe to social darwinism.

Justin_stacy

01/14/05, 10:19 PM

Well seems none of you really got my point of view here or what i meant at all, cause none of you actually searched any own answers. And there's no way i'm gonna reply to all of you. But what i implyed was that the U.S. have an fucking intelligent propaganda system smarter then any dictature ever had that combines highly effective indoctrination with the belief that you really live in a free and democratic society. And that's how you get screwed, and that's also what none of you managed to figure out. ...

I don't think anyone here is purposely trying to ignore what you are saying, what most are doing is questioning its validity. Think about it, the basis for your argument on "propaganda" comes from the mouth of a known "propagandist". Which really makes one question your overall argument. Would you put much faith in a person’s description of nazi Germany, if the basis for his argument came from the mouth of Goebbels or Riefenstahl?

See you talk about the “indoctrination” of the American government being highly effective, but what about that of Chomsky. He is universally seen as a bias (and quesitonable) author, who puts personal opinion (or want) above fact. But yet has somehow been able to use his mastering of another subject, which has no connection what so ever to politics, to "trick" the most weak minded among us, to follow him, as though he were some sort of political genius….when he is nothing more then a useless propagandist. If this doesn't show a mastering in the art of indoctrination, i dont' know what does....

Also of course Bush's politics doesn't benefit the average american working class man ....

You continuously say this, but never say how .....I mean how on earth would you have any clue what the average American wants or believes? Your values are so out of touch here, and your elitist mindset is exactly why the liberal left is continuously losing out to moderates and Republicans among the working class.....It has nothing to do with indoctrination, or propaganda. Most Americans don't want to be told how to live, how to think or how to feel.....and they don't want big government. All things the far left embodies. But of course the answers couldn’t be this obvious, right?

Bush an extreme fundamental capitalist, capitalist politics benefit capitalists. Check how much Bush spent on his election campaign e.t.c. and who paid for it, he didn't win because he had ideas he won because he had the money backing him up....
And America is a capitalist society....but never mind...

So let’s look at your example.
Bush spent $339,280,603 in 04', to Kerry's $299,852,005, to get reelected. A difference of $40,000,000, which might sound big to the uninformed......but only a fool would take this as their final answer.
One must also add in what the 527's, which were so rampant in this election year, spent. And this is where the differences are outstanding, Democratic/liberal groups spent more than $120 million on ads and voter mobilization efforts, while Republican/conservative groups spent a measly $18,000,000, a difference of $102,000,000.

So if we add these two together, with get an outcome that shows the American public was bombarded by far more leftwing influences then rightwing......which should show that all the money in the world (pun intended) can't buy you the election, if your ideas are seen as opposing what Americans want....

*http://www.opensecrets.org/presidential/summary.asp?ID=N00008072
http://www.opensecrets.org/presidential/summary.asp?ID=N00000245
http://www.keepmedia.com/pubs/AccountingToday/2004/10/11/606065?extID=10032&oliID=213

I'd love to continue, but your fanatical rants just go on and on....and on.....

Justin_stacy

01/14/05, 10:24 PM

No, I am not.
sad, but never the less expected.... :wink3:

Love As Arson

01/15/05, 02:14 AM

sad, but never the less expected.... :wink3:
It's kind of sad that you subscribe to the ideology that you do.

Justin_stacy

01/15/05, 07:20 AM

It's kind of sad that you subscribe to the ideology that you do.

oooooooowwww.....you got me!

Just_Insane

01/15/05, 08:37 AM

I don't think anyone here is purposely trying to ignore what you are saying, what most are doing is questioning its validity. Think about it, the basis for your argument on "propaganda" comes from the mouth of a known "propagandist". Which really makes one question your overall argument. Would you put much faith in a person’s description of nazi Germany, if the basis for his argument came from the mouth of Goebbels or Riefenstahl?

See you talk about the “indoctrination” of the American government being highly effective, but what about that of Chomsky. He is universally seen as a bias (and quesitonable) author, who puts personal opinion (or want) above fact. But yet has somehow been able to use his mastering of another subject, which has no connection what so ever to politics, to "trick" the most weak minded among us, to follow him, as though he were some sort of political genius….when he is nothing more then a useless propagandist. If this doesn't show a mastering in the art of indoctrination, i dont' know what does....

And you should question it's validity. However comparing Chomsky to Goebbels e.t.c is just really ignorant and makes no sense in any way. You know journalists used to once be about questioning the people with power (money) working for democracy and the people, not for the power. And this whole argument really just makes you an huge hypocrite. Cause not once has i seen you actually questioning the people with real power, instead you question people with no power questioning people with power who's politics kill people everyday. Chomsky is an author who has his whole life worked against the people in power and spent all his life with doing that, he wouldn't have to do that, instead he could've had his linguistic career and go golfing instead
on his spare-time. However analysing media e.t.c. and politics and the american society is what he's done all his life. And he's now 76 years old, i think if you can listen and actually believe what Bush says. You should be able to at least listen to and respect Chomsky, check Bush vs. Chomsky's background e.t.c. And an rational thinking human would've instead of dismissed Chomsky cause you don't like what he says, instead found out if he's maybe actually right, cause that's what's important. You ever read math!?

You continuously say this, but never say how .....I mean how on earth would you have any clue what the average American wants or believes? Your values are so out of touch here, and your elitist mindset is exactly why the liberal left is continuously losing out to moderates and Republicans among the working class.....It has nothing to do with indoctrination, or propaganda. Most Americans don't want to be told how to live, how to think or how to feel.....and they don't want big government. All things the far left embodies. But of course the answers couldn’t be this obvious, right?

Actually i did say a little of how, just try using the scroll button. Capitalist politics doesn't benefit the working class. It's quite obvious. The capitalist wants to benefit as much as he can. And to do that, he'd be glad to lower everyone's pay or fire employees, make them work longer,move his factory south of the border maybe. That doesn't benefit the workers. Sorry.

And America is a capitalist society....but never mind...

So let’s look at your example.
Bush spent $339,280,603 in 04', to Kerry's $299,852,005, to get reelected. A difference of $40,000,000, which might sound big to the uninformed......but only a fool would take this as their final answer.
One must also add in what the 527's, which were so rampant in this election year, spent. And this is where the differences are outstanding, Democratic/liberal groups spent more than $120 million on ads and voter mobilization efforts, while Republican/conservative groups spent a measly $18,000,000, a difference of $102,000,000.

So if we add these two together, with get an outcome that shows the American public was bombarded by far more leftwing influences then rightwing......which should show that all the money in the world (pun intended) can't buy you the election, if your ideas are seen as opposing what Americans want....

*http://www.opensecrets.org/presidential/summary.asp?ID=N00008072
http://www.opensecrets.org/presidential/summary.asp?ID=N00000245
http://www.keepmedia.com/pubs/AccountingToday/2004/10/11/606065?extID=10032&oliID=213

I'd love to continue, but your fanatical rants just go on and on....and on.....

Yet another proof that american politics has nothing to do with actual ideas. It's all about money and huge business.

Love As Arson

01/15/05, 10:17 AM

oooooooowwww.....you got me!
Ha. That is the result of me trying to be civil in the debating part of the board.

cal1082

01/15/05, 10:23 AM

Actually i did say a little of how, just try using the scroll button. Capitalist politics doesn't benefit the working class. It's quite obvious. The capitalist wants to benefit as much as he can. And to do that, he'd be glad to lower everyone's pay or fire employees, make them work longer,move his factory south of the border maybe. That doesn't benefit the workers. Sorry.

See where you are lost is that on much of this stuff there are restrictions, and unions that won't allow business heads to do this.

Sure if you toss out all restrictions, and all unions you'd have a system that doesnt benefit workers. But we have both and you can't toss them out. Why in the world do you think you see Presidential candidates chase the union vote so much? Unions are strong and we saw how important the union vote was in Iowa during the primaries. Had Gephardt been able to get the union vote he expected he might have been the one to role through the rest of the states instead of Kerry. So I'd say, sorry, we do have a system that benefits both the workers and business. Simple fact is that it's a struggle pulling both ways.

Justin_stacy

01/15/05, 03:15 PM

Ha. That is the result of me trying to be civil in the debating part of the board.
hey i put a :wink3: <-----isn't that being civil?

Poopy

01/15/05, 07:44 PM

you really just don't get it.

You hate Bush right? You thinks hes an idiot? Why should he be able to choose how my money is spent? I dont trust anyone in politics to spend my money as smartly as I would.

Poopy

01/15/05, 07:51 PM

[QUOTE=

Actually i did say a little of how, just try using the scroll button. Capitalist politics doesn't benefit the working class. It's quite obvious. The capitalist wants to benefit as much as he can. And to do that, he'd be glad to lower everyone's pay or fire employees, make them work longer,move his factory south of the border maybe. That doesn't benefit the workers. Sorry.

Employers have to pay workers enough to keep them at their job. Thats how much the job is worth. If they were paying too low, no one would take the job and they would have to raise wages. Workers arent forced to work for low pay at gunpoint.
I hate victicrats!

QUOTE]

Justin_stacy

01/16/05, 12:31 AM

And you should question it's validity. However comparing Chomsky to Goebbels e.t.c is just really ignorant and makes no sense in any way. .

Don't be so naive to think that just because you support the work of an extremist, that it somehow makes him (or her) better, or more acceptable, then any other extremist.

And the comparison was not directly based on ideas, either, but on practices and goals. A propagandist is a propagandist, right or left, plain and simple, they all do the same thing. They distort facts, rewrite history, spread lies, prey on the weak, and strive for goals that can't be justified by honest means. And in this way they are one in the same...

You know journalists used to once be about questioning the people with power (money) working for democracy and the people, not for the power. And this whole argument really just makes you an huge hypocrite. Cause not once has i seen you actually questioning the people with real power, instead you question people with no power questioning people with power who's politics kill people everyday. .

How does this show my hypocrisy? You are the one using a propagandist's writing to question other, supposed, propaganda.....this, my friend, is hypocrisy. Its fools logic...

And where do you get off saying I don't question the government? Have I ever carried on any other conversations with you? Now of course I may not be as fanatical as you, but that doesn’t mean I’m complacent either.......we have different opinions on what to change and how to change it.....but yet this was not about my questioning, it was about your questioning of a government and a people's values that you don't understand, using faulty logic.

And the fact that you resorted to calling yeats a “nazi,” because your own intellect lacks the ability to converse, rationally, with those that have opposing views from you, proves this.

Chomsky is an author who has his whole life worked against the people in power and spent all his life with doing that, he wouldn't have to do that, instead he could've had his linguistic career and go golfing insteadon his spare-time. However analysing media e.t.c. and politics and the american society is what he's done all his life..

Again why does that matter.....I can name you all kinds of conservative writers that are trying to change America (and the world) and oust those in power. But does that make what they say inherently factual, or completely truthful? Or do political extremists, right or left, tend to have a questionable take on history and facts?
Of course the answer is yes they do. Most will say anything to make their concepts shine, to make the most ignorant and weak among us follow them blindly. See your perception that just because someone opposes a government that they are somehow beyond reproach, is just asinine, people outside of government can be just as evil and threatening as those within the government. And because they are outside of any real power, or spot light, and because their "ideas" tend to be opposing to what the vast majority wants, they normally turn out to be the most fanatical and hostile among us, and in a way the most dangerous.....

And he's now 76 years old, i think if you can listen and actually believe what Bush says..

Where are you coming from? Now age somehow makes one a truth teller? Seems to me to be blind allegiance, no?........oh and where on earth did i say i believe everything bush says? Or even totally support him? Could you show me......?

You should be able to at least listen to and respect Chomsky, check Bush vs. Chomsky's background e.t.c. And an rational thinking human would've instead of dismissed Chomsky cause you don't like what he says, instead found out if he's maybe actually right, cause that's what's important. You ever read math!?..

Respect is something someone earns, not just something that is given to someone based on age or title. And a propagandist like Chomsky deserves no respect. He is a liar that feeds on the weak in order to try and change a society against the majorities will. This is not the type of person who deserves any respect, or blind following.

And again, any "rational thinking" human wouldn't blindly follow someone who is universally seem as an extremist…

Oh and by the way, as I mentioned earlier, I have read Chomsky and like I said, it is always important to know and try (if possible) to understand those you see as an enemy. Not to just make up crackpot theories about them, to explain beliefs you don’t understand.. You should try this, reading up on opposing viewpoints might do you some good and broaden your mind.

Actually i did say a little of how, just try using the scroll button. Capitalist politics doesn't benefit the working class. It's quite obvious. The capitalist wants to benefit as much as he can. And to do that, he'd be glad to lower everyone's pay or fire employees, make them work longer,move his factory south of the border maybe. That doesn't benefit the workers. Sorry..

Sorry, I didn't realize that the subject was out of your league.
No society on the planet is solely capitalist, ever government; you know the thing you hate, but depend fully on; sets up restrictions and guidelines on how the business world can act and do business. They are not free, as you so ignorantly think, to do as they wish. Now are there abuses and law breaking, yes, but there are these things in every aspect of the world. Everything has the ability to be abused or taken advantage of, but that does not mean everything must be completely change. When something works 90% of the time, the simple fix is always a far better, and more rational, conclusion, then the extreme-minded over hall….

Now, again, you have not answered the question anywhere, you've given your misguided opinion on capitalism, but never actually answered the question. Why?
So again I’ll ask what on earth do you know about the American working class and what they want or will benefit from?

The fact is most will tell you that they support Capitalist ideas, the entrepreneurial spirit, and self-determination. Now does this make them dumb? And you smarter than them? Probably not.

The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent vice of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. - Winston Churchill

Yet another proof that american politics has nothing to do with actual ideas. It's all about money and huge business..

Except not all that money is from the business world, but facts don't matter do they?

But with that do you understand the difference between your country and mine? Not just the population or actual land mass size....but the way in which people live? It takes money and large amounts of it to run a campaign in a country like this......there's just no way around it. You can't allow ideological wants to cloud the reality of a situation, running for office can't be done for cheap....

Just_Insane

01/16/05, 09:53 AM

See where you are lost is that on much of this stuff there are restrictions, and unions that won't allow business heads to do this.

Sure if you toss out all restrictions, and all unions you'd have a system that doesnt benefit workers. But we have both and you can't toss them out. Why in the world do you think you see Presidential candidates chase the union vote so much? Unions are strong and we saw how important the union vote was in Iowa during the primaries. Had Gephardt been able to get the union vote he expected he might have been the one to role through the rest of the states instead of Kerry. So I'd say, sorry, we do have a system that benefits both the workers and business. Simple fact is that it's a struggle pulling both ways.

Sorry, but no you don't. Even believing that is purely based on ignorance. You should go read some union history, read about the syndicalists history in the U.S. e.t.c. and you'd find that unions in the U.S. right now are fucking weak and getting even weaker. And capitalist politics still doesn't benefit the workers, just like socialist politics doesn't benefit the capitalists. Think about that one. Purely just believing that capitalist politics benefit the average working man is being ignorant to other ideas and alternatives that are much better, sure it works but it's far far from good for anyone else but the capitalist.

cal1082

01/16/05, 10:07 AM

Sorry, but no you don't. Even believing that is purely based on ignorance. You should go read some union history, read about the syndicalists history in the U.S. e.t.c. and you'd find that unions in the U.S. right now are fucking weak and getting even weaker. And capitalist politics still doesn't benefit the workers, just like socialist politics doesn't benefit the capitalists. Think about that one. Purely just believing that capitalist politics benefit the average working man is being ignorant to other ideas and alternatives that are much better, sure it works but it's far far from good for anyone else but the capitalist.

I'm not saying we have lots of unions, I'm saying unions we have, have strenght (airline, teacher, steel), and what is ignorant is ignoring the fact that we have unions, and regulations (which benefit the worker) that keeps us from a pure capitalist society.

Just_Insane

01/16/05, 10:08 AM

Don't be so naive to think that just because you support the work of an extremist, that it somehow makes him (or her) better, or more acceptable, then any other extremist.

And the comparison was not directly based on ideas, either, but on practices and goals. A propagandist is a propagandist, right or left, plain and simple, they all do the same thing. They distort facts, rewrite history, spread lies, prey on the weak, and strive for goals that can't be justified by honest means. And in this way they are one in the same...

How does this show my hypocrisy? You are the one using a propagandist's writing to question other, supposed, propaganda.....this, my friend, is hypocrisy. Its fools logic...

And where do you get off saying I don't question the government? Have I ever carried on any other conversations with you? Now of course I may not be as fanatical as you, but that doesn’t mean I’m complacent either.......we have different opinions on what to change and how to change it.....but yet this was not about my questioning, it was about your questioning of a government and a people's values that you don't understand, using faulty logic.

And the fact that you resorted to calling yeats a “nazi,” because your own intellect lacks the ability to converse, rationally, with those that have opposing views from you, proves this.

Again why does that matter.....I can name you all kinds of conservative writers that are trying to change America (and the world) and oust those in power. But does that make what they say inherently factual, or completely truthful? Or do political extremists, right or left, tend to have a questionable take on history and facts?
Of course the answer is yes they do. Most will say anything to make their concepts shine, to make the most ignorant and weak among us follow them blindly. See your perception that just because someone opposes a government that they are somehow beyond reproach, is just asinine, people outside of government can be just as evil and threatening as those within the government. And because they are outside of any real power, or spot light, and because their "ideas" tend to be opposing to what the vast majority wants, they normally turn out to be the most fanatical and hostile among us, and in a way the most dangerous.....

Where are you coming from? Now age somehow makes one a truth teller? Seems to me to be blind allegiance, no?........oh and where on earth did i say i believe everything bush says? Or even totally support him? Could you show me......?

Respect is something someone earns, not just something that is given to someone based on age or title. And a propagandist like Chomsky deserves no respect. He is a liar that feeds on the weak in order to try and change a society against the majorities will. This is not the type of person who deserves any respect, or blind following.

And again, any "rational thinking" human wouldn't blindly follow someone who is universally seem as an extremist…

Oh and by the way, as I mentioned earlier, I have read Chomsky and like I said, it is always important to know and try (if possible) to understand those you see as an enemy. Not to just make up crackpot theories about them, to explain beliefs you don’t understand.. You should try this, reading up on opposing viewpoints might do you some good and broaden your mind.

Sorry, I didn't realize that the subject was out of your league.
No society on the planet is solely capitalist, ever government; you know the thing you hate, but depend fully on; sets up restrictions and guidelines on how the business world can act and do business. They are not free, as you so ignorantly think, to do as they wish. Now are there abuses and law breaking, yes, but there are these things in every aspect of the world. Everything has the ability to be abused or taken advantage of, but that does not mean everything must be completely change. When something works 90% of the time, the simple fix is always a far better, and more rational, conclusion, then the extreme-minded over hall….

Now, again, you have not answered the question anywhere, you've given your misguided opinion on capitalism, but never actually answered the question. Why?
So again I’ll ask what on earth do you know about the American working class and what they want or will benefit from?

The fact is most will tell you that they support Capitalist ideas, the entrepreneurial spirit, and self-determination. Now does this make them dumb? And you smarter than them? Probably not.

The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent vice of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. - Winston Churchill

Except not all that money is from the business world, but facts don't matter do they?

But with that do you understand the difference between your country and mine? Not just the population or actual land mass size....but the way in which people live? It takes money and large amounts of it to run a campaign in a country like this......there's just no way around it. You can't allow ideological wants to cloud the reality of a situation, running for office can't be done for cheap....

Umm well as i said when it comes to Chomsky. You ever read math!? Cause then you'd know mathematics don't give a fuck about your right to speak about a problem and raise your voice and create theories and thesises. They wanna know if the problems and thesises are right or wrong. And that's what an rational thinking human being would've done and found out, something you're obviously not capable of. Instead you simply disqualified Chomsky as an political commentator through (without any logic at all) comparing him to Goebbels. Way to go! Says more about your intelligence then anything. I say still go read Chomsky's propagandamodel and then you can rationally check if it's right or if it's all wrong, and you'd might actually understand your own country more someday.

Just_Insane

01/16/05, 10:11 AM

I'm not saying we have lots of unions, I'm saying unions we have, have strenght (airline, teacher, steel), and what is ignorant is ignoring the fact that we have unions, and regulations (which benefit the worker) that keeps us from a pure capitalist society.

I'm not saying you're a pure capitalist society. Cause from what i know that has never actually existed. A pure capitalist society wouldn't have government, right? I'm not ignoring the facts that you have unions either. I'm saying they're nothing compared to the unions and the power they had in the 1900-century or even 50 years ago.

cal1082

01/16/05, 10:16 AM

I'm not saying you're a pure capitalist society. Cause from what i know that has never actually existed. A pure capitalist society wouldn't have government, right? I'm not ignoring the facts that you have unions either. I'm saying they're nothing compared to the unions and the power they had in the 1900-century or even 50 years ago.

"Sure if you toss out all restrictions, and all unions you'd have a system that doesnt benefit workers. But we have both and you can't toss them out....................So I'd say, sorry, we do have a system that benefits both the workers and business. Simple fact is that it's a struggle pulling both ways."

Just_Insane

01/16/05, 10:18 AM

"Sure if you toss out all restrictions, and all unions you'd have a system that doesnt benefit workers. But we have both and you can't toss them out....................So I'd say, sorry, we do have a system that benefits both the workers and business. Simple fact is that it's a struggle pulling both ways."

Simply igoring the fact that no capitalists would benefit the workers the most.

cal1082

01/16/05, 10:22 AM

Simply igoring the fact that no capitalists would benefit the workers the most.

we do have a system that benefits both the workers and business. :lol2: You can't ingore labor unions and regulations.

Just_Insane

01/16/05, 10:26 AM

we do have a system that benefits both the workers and business. :lol2: You can't ingore labor unions and regulations.

Still simply ignoring what i just said.

cal1082

01/16/05, 10:31 AM

Still simply ignoring what i just said.

I'm not ignoring what you said. I have no doubt that if there were no unions, and no restrictions many execs. would take advantage of workers. I'm not arguing that, so dont feel ignored :lol2: .

You just cant admit we do have a system that benefits the worker, as well as the owner. What do you think regulations, and unions are for.........?

Just_Insane

01/16/05, 10:39 AM

I'm not ignoring what you said. I have no doubt that if there were no unions, and no restrictions many execs. would take advantage of workers. I'm not arguing that, so dont feel ignored :lol2: .

You just cant admit we do have a system that benefits the worker, as well as the owner. What do you think regulations, and unions are for.........?

Haha. I admit you have a system that benefit both the workers and the capitalists to a small extent, so do we. Actually i think most countries nowadays do and must do. However what i'm saying is that no capitalists, no owner, meaning the workers actually owning there own factories that they work at would benefit them far more. I'd love to send you an interesting article i read some weeks ago in the local newspaper here, from Argentina. The capitalists had left the factory and totally dumped it, so the workers were in control of the factory. And it worked perfectly for them, i think we could learn much from that. Keep in mind this was an right-wing newspaper posing as a socialist newspaper.

Justin_stacy

01/16/05, 12:40 PM

And that's what an rational thinking human being would've done and found out, something you're obviously not capable of. .

Rational people look to understand issues through the eyes of more then one opinion, whether or not they agree with the opposing side. You my friend are trapped in a world of indoctrination, which is obviously blinding your ability to make rational conclusions on your own...

Instead you simply disqualified Chomsky as an political commentator through (without any logic at all) comparing him to Goebbels. Way to go! .

I discredited him, as have the majority of political writers and the public, because of the tactics he uses. Which, not suprisingly, happen to be the exact same as other propagandist throughout history.

Says more about your intelligence then anything..

I don't know, what does your blind ignorance say about your's? Or your attack on Yeat's........you obvious don't have much to brag about yourself....

I say still go read Chomsky's propagandamodel and then you can rationally check if it's right or if it's all wrong, and you'd might actually understand your own country more someday.

I’ve read it before, and in fact I read it again two nights ago, as we were chatting. And the point isn't that it’s false or whether or not I disagree with it, it’s the fact that Chomsky, himself, participates in the very acts he is speaking out about. You have, absolutely, no credibility if you do what it is your speaking-out about. It’s like a parent telling a child not to do drugs, when the parent openly uses them, themselves. Now of course the parent is right, the child shouldn't be using drugs, but what creditability does that parent have to tell the child this when it is participating in the very act it is criticizing ....

And that is the point, no matter how good Chomsky’s argument about propaganda is, because he is participating in the very same acts, in his writings and speeches; distortion, lying, sensationalizing, etc; his creditability should be completely questioned. He can not put himself about those he is speaking out about, if he wants to be taken seriously.

And a point could be made that if you are able to write a "paper/theory" about an issue, and yet still knowingly participate in it in that issue, you are in fact worse then the ones you speak out about.

Finally I will say it would do you some good to read up on opposing views points, although I know differing ideas might be hard to come by in Scandinavia. But I honestly think it might actually help you understand your own beliefs better, and that of you opponents…

Just_Insane

01/16/05, 02:15 PM

Rational people look to understand issues through the eyes of more then one opinion, whether or not they agree with the opposing side. You my friend are trapped in a world of indoctrination, which is obviously blinding your ability to make rational conclusions on your own...

I understand the issues through more then one opinion. However i disagree with them and that's why i argue against them, something you obviously seem to have a problem with. And i'm the one trapped in a world of indoctrination!? really. How would that be!? I'd love to hear. And sorry but you're still the one incapable of rational thinking.

I discredited him, as have the majority of political writers and the public, because of the tactics he uses. Which, not suprisingly, happen to be the exact same as other propagandist throughout history.

Yeah he attacks them and says things no one wants to hear, therefor instead of being rational and finding out if he's actually right or wrong they simply discredit him. It's easy and they have the power to do that obviously. This does not only make them look like idiots, also it infact makes them look like unserious idiots. Let me take this as an example; A mathematic gets a thesis and instead of solving it finding out if it's right or wrong, he discredits the thesis and says it's dumb.... Who is the one looking dumb then not knowing his stuff!?

I don't know, what does your blind ignorance say about your's? Or your attack on Yeat's........you obvious don't have much to brag about yourself....

I don't need anything to brag about, that's not why i waste my time here, sorry. I'm simply an human being fighting for what i believe looking for the truth, using the few answers i've got so far. Plus let's try to be rational with my attack on yeat.

I’ve read it before, and in fact I read it again two nights ago, as we were chatting. And the point isn't that it’s false or whether or not I disagree with it, it’s the fact that Chomsky, himself, participates in the very acts he is speaking out about. You have, absolutely, no credibility if you do what it is your speaking-out about. It’s like a parent telling a child not to do drugs, when the parent openly uses them, themselves. Now of course the parent is right, the child shouldn't be using drugs, but what creditability does that parent have to tell the child this when it is participating in the very act it is criticizing ....

And that is the point, no matter how good Chomsky’s argument about propaganda is, because he is participating in the very same acts, in his writings and speeches; distortion, lying, sensationalizing, etc; his creditability should be completely questioned. He can not put himself about those he is speaking out about, if he wants to be taken seriously.

And a point could be made that if you are able to write a "paper/theory" about an issue, and yet still knowingly participate in it in that issue, you are in fact worse then the ones you speak out about.

Really, how's that!?. And as an argument you always use that i'm saying you should think for yourself. "Yet my only source is Chomsky" (which is not true at all). But seriously you don't think for yourself yourself. Let's say a parent tells it's child not to do drugs cause it might kill him/her and the parents do drugs themselves. Should the child then just discredit the parent and not even listen to what it has to say and then die because of drugs, or should it perhaps listen to what it has to say with an own thinking critical brain deciding what to do instead of just blindly listening or not listening to anyone!? Afterall the parents should know all about drugs, right!? It's very very dangerous when other people have the power to disqualify and discredit someone i'd say. Also i'd like to know what he's lying about, distorting, sensationalizing e.t.c!? You have any concrete examples!?

Finally I will say it would do you some good to read up on opposing views points,

That's just pure ignorant. You think i haven't read about capitalistic ideas, you think i don't know any capitalists!?

although I know differing ideas might be hard to come by in Scandinavia.

Even more ignorant. Infact i don't even know what that was. Prejudiced as hell at least. You ever even been to Scandinavia!?

Justin_stacy

01/16/05, 02:39 PM

. Plus let's try to be rational with my attack on yeat.

This should be rich, please rationalize this;

Infact i believe you'd make a good nazi/fascist leader, Hitler had "all the answers" to, directly.
Too bad it lead to millions of dead people since they weren't true and based on real research and facts and people swallowed them just like you. The economical situation at the time was terrible aswell and there they had one man with all the answers and solutions; kill all the jews, blacks, handicapped, homosexuals and whoever disagreed and didn't follow, also lets start a war! yey! Also they had an huge and very successful propaganda system which helped Hitler to kill millions of people. And let me come with an Chomsky quote here; "if dictators would've been smarter they would've used the american/western propaganda system". Go read some history.

What did Yeats do to be called a Nazi? Did he insult you in anyway or insult your views?
What defense could you possibly come up with to "rationalize" this?

Just_Insane

01/16/05, 02:52 PM

This should be rich, please rationalize this;

Infact i believe you'd make a good nazi/fascist leader, Hitler had "all the answers" to, directly.
Too bad it lead to millions of dead people since they weren't true and based on real research and facts and people swallowed them just like you. The economical situation at the time was terrible aswell and there they had one man with all the answers and solutions; kill all the jews, blacks, handicapped, homosexuals and whoever disagreed and didn't follow, also lets start a war! yey! Also they had an huge and very successful propaganda system which helped Hitler to kill millions of people. And let me come with an Chomsky quote here; "if dictators would've been smarter they would've used the american/western propaganda system". Go read some history.

What did Yeats do to be called a Nazi? Did he insult you in anyway or insult your views?
What defense could you possibly come up with to "rationalize" this?

On this board when you post something, usually the one posting directly saying you're wrong without any motivation or facts use to be yeats. True fascist way. So did Hitler and Mussolini(intolerance i believe it's called...which equals fascism), when infact he didn't know shit, he was just a good talker/speecher. He didn't back up his arguments with actual in dept facts, just like yeats doesn't, infact he doesn't say anything hardly more then you're wrong, i'm right. Instead he answers 2 seconds after you posted an long text filled with information and facts e.t.c., saying it's wrong. And ok i admit it was a little too much from my side. But the similarities are there and my purpose was to get him to think (cause that's not too easy believe me) by using such "strong" words and comparishments. As for the rest i just related to the similarities of the american society, seeing if he can be rational and think and see the similarities and possible differences. However he didn't answer. You did it for him, just like someone always has to back him up and do.