Will Israel attack Iran?

[ToMyBetterAngel]

If Iran continues its uranium enrichment, will Israel attack? Or will they wait to see if concrete evidence is found that Iran is making nuclear weapons? Perhaps more importantly, would Russia or China defend Iran if it were attacked by Israel or America?

[modlife]

would Russia or China defend Iran if it were attacked by Israel or America?

No.

[EchoPark]

Israel has had no problems with pre-emptive strikes as they bombed several Iraqi military installations in the 80's. It sure would be a good fight though, the Israeli miltary are pretty well armed and supported and trained and the Iranians have the largest army in the middle east.

[loveisdead]

No.
I think they will.

[ActionActionFan]

They should.

[Killadelphia]

someone should.

[alice+interiors]

Why? You think America/the UK doesn't do most of the things Iran gets up to?

[lew_1987]

Why? You think America/the UK doesn't do most of the things Iran gets up to?

/Thread

[ActionActionFan]

Why? You think America/the UK doesn't do most of the things Iran gets up to?

If it weren't for America, Europe and China, Iran would have nothing.

[phil19]

i think israel have enough problems with palestine.

[FScott]

If Iran continues its uranium enrichment, will Israel attack?

I'm hoping its the other way around.

[ToMyBetterAngel]

why

[Post-me]

A friend asked me the same question the other day. I think it's quite possible that if the occident(hmm USA) wants to attack Iran they will make Israel attack Iran then, they'll bomb Iran too. Now, if Russia or china do not help them, theyre fucked up i think, and this depend on the relation of russia and china with the occident at that time

[mikeyystyles]

I'm hoping its the other way around.

You would.

[dtrzcin]

EOTW

(end of the world)

[TK]

I'm hoping its the other way around.

Why haven't you been banned yet

[konvalbr]

I don't think Israel will attack Iran. But I do believe Russia is going to try and start shit with the world and end up fucking us all over.

[saysmydoctor]

This question can only be answered if we answer the question of whether or not the US will ever let go of the leash?

[anthony051]

Why haven't you been banned yet

Thank you. Have to love the not veiled at all anti semetism.

I spent some time in israel, a few times actually, and there actually isn't that much anti Iranian sentiment. At least there isn't in Jerusalem.

Personally, I don't think there will be a preemptive strike, but I'm not saying I don't want one to happen.

[Illuminate]

I'm hoping its the other way around.

Get the fuck out of this thread, you nazi.


Israel will never start off a war, so I don't believe so. We want peace. (I'm Jewish, hence writing we)

[ActionActionFan]

I'm hoping its the other way around.

You have a serious problem.

[ToMyBetterAngel]

I don't think Israel will attack Iran. But I do believe Russia is going to try and start shit with the world and end up fucking us all over.

I don't think Russia is trying to start shit. They are reaffirming their role in the world, and re-establishing their traditional sphere of influence. As long as America doesn't over react and start pushing nato right to their borders (which actually might happen) we should be ok.

Thank you. Have to love the not veiled at all anti semetism.

I spent some time in israel, a few times actually, and there actually isn't that much anti Iranian sentiment. At least there isn't in Jerusalem.

Personally, I don't think there will be a preemptive strike, but I'm not saying I don't want one to happen.

Why do you favor a preemptive strike on Iran, just out of curiosity?

[Skadrist]

I don't think Russia is trying to start shit. They are reaffirming their role in the world, and re-establishing their traditional sphere of influence. As long as America doesn't over react and start pushing nato right to their borders (which actually might happen) we should be ok.



Why do you favor a preemptive strike on Iran, just out of curiosity?


True, I found it disturbing that both candidates in the recent debate lambasted Russia for their lack of diplomacy when Russia did try to use diplomacy.
At the request of Russia, the U.N. Security Council held an emergency session in New York but failed to reach consensus early Friday on a Russian-drafted statement.
The council concluded it was at a stalemate after the United States, Britain and some other members backed the Georgians in rejecting a phrase in the three-sentence draft statement that would have required both sides “to renounce the use of force,” council diplomats said.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-strikes-as-%20georgia-moves-against-rebels-888487.html

[open mind]

Get the fuck out of this thread, you nazi.


Israel will never start off a war, so I don't believe so. We want peace. (I'm Jewish, hence writing we)

the israeli treatment of the palestinians is very similiar in many ways to the way the germans treated jews.......so don't throw terms like nazi around so much.

israel won't start a war......but they'll routinely go into palestine with tanks (provided by the u.s.) destroy houses, imprison and kill innocent people, and generally treat the palestinians as if they're all sub-humans.

[TheNotoriousIAN]

Israel never really took shit from anybody and now isn't the time to start. G-d will keep them protected, and they have a bad ass military over there.

[open mind]

Israel never really took shit from anybody and now isn't the time to start. G-d will keep them protected, and they have a bad ass military over there.

huh?

[anthony051]

Get the fuck out of this thread, you nazi.


Israel will never start off a war, so I don't believe so. We want peace. (I'm Jewish, hence writing we)

Another Jew on AP? I'm not alone!

I don't think Russia is trying to start shit. They are reaffirming their role in the world, and re-establishing their traditional sphere of influence. As long as America doesn't over react and start pushing nato right to their borders (which actually might happen) we should be ok.



Why do you favor a preemptive strike on Iran, just out of curiosity?

I'm not entirely sure if I want them to... I just don't think I would mind if they did. I mean, the president of Iran is a virulent anti semite and holocaust denier, say what you will about him being misquoted, but anyone who sanctions Israeli flag burnings and death to Israel marches is an anti semite in my book.

I dunno, I believe that Iran is a danger to the free world, and seeing as negotiations aren't going to happen, because they don't recognize Israel as a country, and the American people don't support negotiations, I think the only possible outcome is war.

So what it comes down to isn't a question of whether or not I support an aggressive war, it's whether or not I support my brothers and sisters (and two uncles) in the IDF. And that's a question I can most certainly answer yes.

[ToMyBetterAngel]

Israel never really took shit from anybody and now isn't the time to start. G-d will keep them protected, and they have a bad ass military over there.

Yes they do but from what I understand, Iran's conventional military is almost on par with them. Israel does have the bomb, however.

Another Jew on AP? I'm not alone!



I'm not entirely sure if I want them to... I just don't think I would mind if they did. I mean, the president of Iran is a virulent anti semite and holocaust denier, say what you will about him being misquoted, but anyone who sanctions Israeli flag burnings and death to Israel marches is an anti semite in my book.

I dunno, I believe that Iran is a danger to the free world, and seeing as negotiations aren't going to happen, because they don't recognize Israel as a country, and the American people don't support negotiations, I think the only possible outcome is war.

So what it comes down to isn't a question of whether or not I support an aggressive war, it's whether or not I support my brothers and sisters (and two uncles) in the IDF. And that's a question I can most certainly answer yes.

I definitly understand the logic of attacking Iran, I'm just worried the consequences of such an attack would put Israel and maybe the entire region in danger of a much larger conflict. I'm not so sure Russia or China would sit there while a nation they depend on for oil is attacked.

[anthony051]

Yes they do but from what I understand, Iran's conventional military is almost on par with them. Israel does have the bomb, however.



I definitly understand the logic of attacking Iran, I'm just worried the consequences of such an attack would put Israel and maybe the entire region in danger of a much larger conflict. I'm not so sure Russia or China would sit there while a nation they depend on for oil is attacked.

There is no doubt in my mind that a war between Israel and Iran would lead to a large scale conflict, possibly even the big double W triple I...

I dunno, I think that the trouble on the horizon is getting closer and closer and there isn't much else we can do now but wait for it to happen. Russia is a huge problem, but I honestly do not see China doing anything. They rely too much on us economically, what with the billions we pump into their economy every year.

It's a difficult situation to be sure, but Iran is a terrorist nation, that is that. They are certainly a problem, the only question is how and when we will take care of them. By we I mean America or Israel. Or both, seeing as Israel seems to be the only country willing to follow us into war anymore.

[ToMyBetterAngel]

http://www.metimes.com/International/2008/09/29/is_iran_readying_for_war/8413/

[FScott]

(I'm Jewish)

Sorry.

[open mind]

I'm not entirely sure if I want them to... I just don't think I would mind if they did. I mean, the president of Iran is a virulent anti semite and holocaust denier, say what you will about him being misquoted, but anyone who sanctions Israeli flag burnings and death to Israel marches is an anti semite in my book.

I dunno, I believe that Iran is a danger to the free world, and seeing as negotiations aren't going to happen, because they don't recognize Israel as a country, and the American people don't support negotiations, I think the only possible outcome is war.

So what it comes down to isn't a question of whether or not I support an aggressive war, it's whether or not I support my brothers and sisters (and two uncles) in the IDF. And that's a question I can most certainly answer yes.

you wouldn't mind a war (likely to spark a 3rd world war)? thanks for reminding me just how insane the staunchly pro-israel lobby can be.
the president of iran doesn't even hold all that much power.
the american people are not all against negotiations.......even the bush administration is warming up to the idea.

[saysmydoctor]

Let's focus on Israel being the actual terrorist nation.

[anthony051]

Let's focus on Israel being the actual terrorist nation.
Oh gee wiz. We have one of those.

Israel is not a fucking terrorist nation. Israel is a nation that has to wake up every morning knowing that the vast majority of the world hates it and the majority of the people that live within it. Israel is a nation that has to deal with constant threat from all sides, but more importantly, Israel is a nation with every right to defend itself.

Your argument just fails epicly, and it's not because I have an Israeli family, it's because you buy into to the stupid bullshit you hear from anti semetic ass holes.

[boykosaurus]

This whole conversation is ridiculous. The only "terrorists" are the leaders of Iran and Israel (not an entire state and its people). The leadership in both countries is willing to sacrifice everything to get what it wants, whether it be an atom bomb or an ethnically pure state. All the while the moderates who are willing to make practical sacrifices for peace are shut-out or tuned down.

Iran has no right to have a nuclear weapon and Israel has no right to have a Jewish ethnocracy throughout all of Judea, where that leaves us I don't know.

[anthony051]

you wouldn't mind a war (likely to spark a 3rd world war)? thanks for reminding me just how insane the staunchly pro-israel lobby can be.
the president of iran doesn't even hold all that much power.
the american people are not all against negotiations.......even the bush administration is warming up to the idea.

Then if negotiations can work, that is great. I wish the American negotiation team all the luck in the world. Israel cannot negotiate with them however, they can only sit idly by and wait for whatever is going to happen to happen, and when a country and it's president are of the overwhelming opinion that Israel should be "Erased from the pages of history" and that the holocaust never happened... I'm not entirely sure what else you expect to happen.

The thing that really pisses me off is that people see Israel as such an agressive nation, going as far as to call it a terrorist nation, but they have no idea what the struggle for Israel is. Israel is the one country that a Jew can go to and be the majority. The one place where the is a Jewish government, the one place where you can truly be among your brothers and sisters and feel at home. However, because my people are held in such low regard, we have to deal with fucking missiles blowing up schools and libarys.

It's absolute bullshit that people say Israel should cool down it's military operations. American's especially that have the "terrorist Nation" mindset just don't fucking understand that the Israeli people have been in a state of constant war for 60 years now. Israel is a young fucking country, look at what America did when it was first created.

And to Fscott, you need to grow the fuck up you racist piece of shit. Why the fuck haven't you been banned you little cunt?

[anthony051]

This whole conversation is ridiculous. The only "terrorists" are the leaders of Iran and Israel (not an entire state and its people). The leadership in both countries is willing to sacrifice everything to get what it wants, whether it be an atom bomb or an ethnically pure state. All the while the moderates who are willing to make practical sacrifices for peace are shut-out or tuned down.

Iran has no right to have a nuclear weapon and Israel has no right to have a Jewish ethnocracy throughout all of Judea, where that leaves us I don't know.

What the fuck are you talking about?

Israel is the last country on the planet that wants to purge itself of other ethnicities, that is a total fucking misconception, and rediculously ironic.

There is a huge difference between saying that Jews should have control of the government, and saying that Jews want everyone else gone. Muslim's have their countries, and Israel is of little significance to Muslim's anyway. Israel has made provisions that are allowing Muslim's to serve in the military and they have seats in the Knesset. Is it perfect? No, but it took America a while to catch onto the whole equlaity thing as well. The leaders of Israel are not terrorists, they are a group of men and women who are trying to protect the last vestiges of our people.

I wish people would stop talking about shit the don't understand. I'm not calling anyone stupid (with the exception of Fscott) but you really have to look at it from another angle before you say shit like that.

[boykosaurus]

What the fuck are you talking about?

Israel is the last country on the planet that wants to purge itself of other ethnicities, that is a total fucking misconception, and rediculously ironic.

Then why demolish houses for nor reason?

Muslim's have their countries, and Israel is of little significance to Muslim's anyway.

Uhhh 3rd holiest place in Muslim theology, perhaps?

Israel has made provisions that are allowing Muslim's to serve in the military and they have seats in the Knesset. Is it perfect? No, but it took America a while to catch onto the whole equlaity thing as well.

We're still working on that.

The leaders of Israel are not terrorists, they are a group of men and women who are trying to protect the last vestiges of our people.

Funny how you mentioned irony.

I wish people would stop talking about shit the don't understand. I'm not calling anyone stupid (with the exception of Fscott) but you really have to look at it from another angle before you say shit like that.

Just because there is another angle doesn't make it right and the other wrong.

[anthony051]

The demolishing houses is a somewhat valid argument, I'll admit to this. But the 3rd holiest place in muslim theology just doesn't make much sesne to me. They have the 1st and 2nd locked down. It's not like Jews are charging admission to the Prophet's Mosque or anything. What about the places of religious significance to Juadaism, like ones in Europe or in Muslim countries, just because they are of religious significance, does that mean Jews should have equal say in that country's government? No. That's retarded.

The Arab/Israeli Conflict is not being fought over religion, it's being fought because once again, a group of people do not want us to exist. What do you expect us to do? Sit back, and allow us to be pushed off into the sea? That makes perfect sense.

I know that having another angle to an argument does not make it neccessarily right, but it's something I feel very strongly about because i has every shred of relevence to me. It really doesn't to non Jews, so I don't understand why everyone else is so compelled to weigh in so heavily about a country they have never been to, and the only thing they know about it is from the American Media.

[saysmydoctor]

Oh gee wiz. We have one of those.

Israel is not a fucking terrorist nation. Israel is a nation that has to wake up every morning knowing that the vast majority of the world hates it and the majority of the people that live within it. Israel is a nation that has to deal with constant threat from all sides, but more importantly, Israel is a nation with every right to defend itself.

Your argument just fails epicly, and it's not because I have an Israeli family, it's because you buy into to the stupid bullshit you hear from anti semetic ass holes.
Not anti-semetic or anything, and Israel does have a right to defend itself. As do the Palestinians walled in like animals or the Lebanese as the Israelis gut the the nation of Lebanon because of a terrorist presence. Your argument fails epicly because you can't identify someone who truly hates jews.

[anthony051]

Not anti-semetic or anything, and Israel does have a right to defend itself. As do the Palestinians walled in like animals or the Lebanese as the Israelis gut the the nation of Lebanon because of a terrorist presence. Your argument fails epicly because you can't identify someone who truly hates jews.

Calling Israelis terrorists for defending their country is anti semetic because the only alternative is our complete destruction both as a nation and a people. What do you think would happen if the Israelis stopped fighting? Seriously? Do you really truly believe that there will be peaceful coexistance?

I for one am of a line of thought that believes what people say, and people say they want the Jews out of Israel, I believe them.

And as for Lebanon, I agree that the Israelis are gutting the nation of Lebanon, I agree that the IDF is being too harsh over there. I said that in an earlier post when someone brought up demolishing houses.

[Illuminate]

Sorry.

That was pretty unintelligent and politically incorrect douchebag

[boykosaurus]

The demolishing houses is a somewhat valid argument, I'll admit to this. But the 3rd holiest place in muslim theology just doesn't make much sesne to me. They have the 1st and 2nd locked down. It's not like Jews are charging admission to the Prophet's Mosque or anything. What about the places of religious significance to Juadaism, like ones in Europe or in Muslim countries, just because they are of religious significance, does that mean Jews should have equal say in that country's government? No. That's retarded.

The Arab/Israeli Conflict is not being fought over religion, it's being fought because once again, a group of people do not want us to exist. What do you expect us to do? Sit back, and allow us to be pushed off into the sea? That makes perfect sense.

I know that having another angle to an argument does not make it neccessarily right, but it's something I feel very strongly about because i has every shred of relevence to me. It really doesn't to non Jews, so I don't understand why everyone else is so compelled to weigh in so heavily about a country they have never been to, and the only thing they know about it is from the American Media.

I know it's not about religion (although religious factions have been gaining dominance i.e., Hamas or the Kahanists). It's about one land and two people, with one group of people being greatly mistreated because of fears of another "Holocaust" being carried out on the other. This argument baffles me.

[saysmydoctor]

Calling Israelis terrorists for defending their country is anti semetic because the only alternative is our complete destruction both as a nation and a people. What do you think would happen if the Israelis stopped fighting? Seriously? Do you really truly believe that there will be peaceful coexistance?

I for one am of a line of thought that believes what people say, and people say they want the Jews out of Israel, I believe them.

And as for Lebanon, I agree that the Israelis are gutting the nation of Lebanon, I agree that the IDF is being too harsh over there. I said that in an earlier post when someone brought up demolishing houses.
You are fucking the biggest idiot ever. Calling the Israel a terrorist nation is not anti-semetic anymore than my calling the US a bigoted terrorist unpatriotic. Quit basing your argument off your religion and start arguing facts or get the fuck out.

You call it defending your nation, I call it holding a people down. Unemployment is incredibly high amongst Palestinians and the Israelis forced the people into their situation. Have the Israelis ever truly stopped fighting? Just because it isn't on the news, doesn't mean nothing is going. Helicopters shooting missiles into West Bank and Gaza, you may have forced people out settlements within those regions, but you also held the people you wanted in there as well. It's forced containment, it's what happened in the Warsaw ghetto and if you want to really get down to it, it's a lack of retrospect on the part of the Jews.

Your school of thought is a self-centered one. Grow up.

[saysmydoctor]

The demolishing houses is a somewhat valid argument, I'll admit to this. But the 3rd holiest place in muslim theology just doesn't make much sesne to me. They have the 1st and 2nd locked down. It's not like Jews are charging admission to the Prophet's Mosque or anything. What about the places of religious significance to Juadaism, like ones in Europe or in Muslim countries, just because they are of religious significance, does that mean Jews should have equal say in that country's government? No. That's retarded.

The Arab/Israeli Conflict is not being fought over religion, it's being fought because once again, a group of people do not want us to exist. What do you expect us to do? Sit back, and allow us to be pushed off into the sea? That makes perfect sense.

I know that having another angle to an argument does not make it neccessarily right, but it's something I feel very strongly about because i has every shred of relevence to me. It really doesn't to non Jews, so I don't understand why everyone else is so compelled to weigh in so heavily about a country they have never been to, and the only thing they know about it is from the American Media.
Another self-centered point and also an argument that doesn't truly combat what he said. You said the city had no significance to the muslims. He corrected your uneducated remark by stating that it is, in fact, the third most religious site.

[boykosaurus]

Another self-centered point and also an argument that doesn't truly combat what he said. You said the city had no significance to the muslims. He corrected your uneducated remark by stating that is, in fact, the third most religious site.

:goodpost:

[saysmydoctor]

If I get called anti-semetic one more time simply because of my views, I'm going to scream. I'm not saying jews are a bad people, I'm saying they are disillusioned by a close-minded sense of self-perseverance rather than looking at the big picture.

[ActionActionFan]

Not anti-semetic or anything, and Israel does have a right to defend itself. As do the Palestinians walled in like animals or the Lebanese as the Israelis gut the the nation of Lebanon because of a terrorist presence. Your argument fails epicly because you can't identify someone who truly hates jews.

There is a difference between a country defending itself and a country whose people fire bombs into crowds of innocent people.

[saysmydoctor]

There is a difference between a country defending itself and a country whose people fire bombs into crowds of innocent people.
Sounds like early Zionists.

[ActionActionFan]

Sounds like early Zionists.

Zionists didn't have a country to defend, so no.

[anthony051]

Whatever. I'm done arguing with people who will never understand my argument. I'm not calling anyone anti semetic, aside from the obvious dick face in the thread. Agree to disagree. You guys have your opinions, and I have mine. Obviously I grew up with an Israeli father and I see justification in Israel defending itself.

We've grown up in different backgrounds, but I will say this, you guys will never truly know what it is like to be in Israel just by watching the news or reading watch dog reports online. No one is denying that Israel has done a lot of questionable shit, but calling it a terrorist nation is extreme. Spend some time there before you call me the biggest fucking idiot ever for stating an opinion, after all, that's what a forum is.

Peace.

[boykosaurus]

There is a difference between a country defending itself and a country whose people fire bombs into crowds of innocent people.

Wait, which country are we talking about?

[saysmydoctor]

Zionists didn't have a country to defend, so no.
This is not at all similar to the Palestinians, you are right. You've proven time and time again that you don't know what you are talking about, please leave.

[ActionActionFan]

Wait, which country are we talking about?

All of the countries surrounding Israel that attack Israel.

[boykosaurus]

Whatever. I'm done arguing with people who will never understand my argument. I'm not calling anyone anti semetic, aside from the obvious dick face in the thread. Agree to disagree. You guys have your opinions, and I have mine. Obviously I grew up with an Israeli father and I see justification in Israel defending itself.

We've grown up in different backgrounds, but I will say this, you guys will never truly know what it is like to be in Israel just by watching the news or reading watch dog reports online. No one is denying that Israel has done a lot of questionable shit, but calling it a terrorist nation is extreme. Spend some time there before you call me the biggest fucking idiot ever for stating an opinion, after all, that's what a forum is.

Peace.

Don't worry, Israel is one of the places I plan to go next.

[ActionActionFan]

This is not at all similar to the Palestinians, you are right. You've proven time and time again that you don't know what you are talking about, please leave.

The Palestinians have the Gaza Strip.

[saysmydoctor]

Whatever. I'm done arguing with people who will never understand my argument. I'm not calling anyone anti semetic, aside from the obvious dick face in the thread. Agree to disagree. You guys have your opinions, and I have mine. Obviously I grew up with an Israeli father and I see justification in Israel defending itself.

We've grown up in different backgrounds, but I will say this, you guys will never truly know what it is like to be in Israel just by watching the news or reading watch dog reports online. No one is denying that Israel has done a lot of questionable shit, but calling it a terrorist nation is extreme. Spend some time there before you call me the biggest fucking idiot ever for stating an opinion, after all, that's what a forum is.

Peace.
You called me anti-semetic twice, jackass. Also, are you just basing your argument on everything you heard from your father? Brilliant, way to expand your knowledge.

Calling it a terrorist nation is spot on and calling the US one isn't far off either. Stop with the nationalistic argument and look at your country from the eyes of the sufferer. I understand the rationale of terrorists and why they attack both Americans and Israelis. Do I agree with it? God no, wish there was another way about it. But until the US stops with its imperialistic habits and the Israelis stop quarantining Palestinians in settings, again, no different from the ones jews themselves have gone through, I will not empathize.

[boykosaurus]

All of the countries surrounding Israel that attack Israel.

Oh, I didn't know Jordan, Egypt, and Syria (through the Golan Heights which they haven't gotten back) were attacking Israel as well.

[saysmydoctor]

The Palestinians have the Gaza Strip.
Ahahahahahahhahahahahaahhaha dumbest fucking argument ever. Again, leave.

[saysmydoctor]

Oh, I didn't know Jordan, Egypt, and Syria (through the Golan Heights which they haven't gotten back) were attacking Israel as well.
This.

[boykosaurus]

The Palestinians have the Gaza Strip.

Define "have".

[saysmydoctor]

Define "have".
They are walled in there and don't really own the land. Have.

[open mind]

Then if negotiations can work, that is great. I wish the American negotiation team all the luck in the world. Israel cannot negotiate with them however, they can only sit idly by and wait for whatever is going to happen to happen, and when a country and it's president are of the overwhelming opinion that Israel should be "Erased from the pages of history" and that the holocaust never happened... I'm not entirely sure what else you expect to happen.

The thing that really pisses me off is that people see Israel as such an agressive nation, going as far as to call it a terrorist nation, but they have no idea what the struggle for Israel is. Israel is the one country that a Jew can go to and be the majority. The one place where the is a Jewish government, the one place where you can truly be among your brothers and sisters and feel at home. However, because my people are held in such low regard, we have to deal with fucking missiles blowing up schools and libarys.

It's absolute bullshit that people say Israel should cool down it's military operations. American's especially that have the "terrorist Nation" mindset just don't fucking understand that the Israeli people have been in a state of constant war for 60 years now. Israel is a young fucking country, look at what America did when it was first created.

israel could negotiate with them....they simply refuse to, and again the iranian president doesn't hold that much power.

israel is an aggressive nation prone to over reaction, a palestinian blows himself up and takes out a number of israeli's and israel responds by bringing tanks into palestine, bulldozing houses, shooting random people down in the street, and rounding up large numbers of people who may or may not have had anything to do with anything.........why the hell does there need to be a jewish government anyways? the very notion is racist and assumes that the world hasn't advanced in terms of race relations in the last century.......you won't see the u.s. government giving say california to native americans because it was once thier land and they've been horribly mistreated.

israel should mellow out, because over reacting to every attack and systemattically mistreating the general palestinian populace only increases the likelihood of continued conflict.

[FScott]

That was pretty unintelligent and politically incorrect douchebag

This coming from the guy who calls people Nazis. That statement means a lot coming from you.

[open mind]

Calling Israelis terrorists for defending their country is anti semetic because the only alternative is our complete destruction both as a nation and a people.

bull fucking shit.
disagreeing with the policies of the israeli government is not anti-semetic, it's common sense.
if i disagree with the policies of george bush am i anti-christian?
there is a difference between defending ones country and systemattically brutalizing your neighbors.

[splitsecond]

holy lol at saysmydoctor's posts in this thread.

[ToMyBetterAngel]

bull fucking shit.
disagreeing with the policies of the israeli government is not anti-semetic, it's common sense.
if i disagree with the policies of george bush am i anti-christian?
there is a difference between defending ones country and systemattically brutalizing your neighbors.

Say Iran continues uranium enrichment, enough so that they may or may not have a secret nuclear weapon(s). What do you think a good course of action for Israel would be?

[saysmydoctor]

holy lol at saysmydoctor's posts in this thread.
Nice counterarguments. The Israeli-Lobby will simply call me anti-semetic though.

[ArTkY_]

Oh, I didn't know Jordan, Egypt, and Syria (through the Golan Heights which they haven't gotten back) were attacking Israel as well.

This is not at all similar to the Palestinians, you are right. You've proven time and time again that you don't know what you are talking about, please leave.

If I get called anti-semetic one more time simply because of my views, I'm going to scream. I'm not saying jews are a bad people, I'm saying they are disillusioned by a close-minded sense of self-perseverance rather than looking at the big picture.

Another self-centered point and also an argument that doesn't truly combat what he said. You said the city had no significance to the muslims. He corrected your uneducated remark by stating that it is, in fact, the third most religious site.

You are fucking the biggest idiot ever. Calling the Israel a terrorist nation is not anti-semetic anymore than my calling the US a bigoted terrorist unpatriotic. Quit basing your argument off your religion and start arguing facts or get the fuck out.

You call it defending your nation, I call it holding a people down. Unemployment is incredibly high amongst Palestinians and the Israelis forced the people into their situation. Have the Israelis ever truly stopped fighting? Just because it isn't on the news, doesn't mean nothing is going. Helicopters shooting missiles into West Bank and Gaza, you may have forced people out settlements within those regions, but you also held the people you wanted in there as well. It's forced containment, it's what happened in the Warsaw ghetto and if you want to really get down to it, it's a lack of retrospect on the part of the Jews.

Your school of thought is a self-centered one. Grow up.

I never thought I'd agree with posts in a thread like this.

[saysmydoctor]

The appropriate response to a such a well thought out argument and a belief that has taken me a long time to get to is 'holy lol.'

I'm not trying to be radical or anything. I don't even consider it fringe. I just think it is obvious.

[open mind]

Say Iran continues uranium enrichment, enough so that they may or may not have a secret nuclear weapon(s). What do you think a good course of action for Israel would be?

i don't believe iran's quest for the bomb is a quest of aggression but one of deterance as u.s. forces are now on or near the majority of thier borders.

i think diplomacy and trade relations are the way to go because people generally don't like wars with the people thier economy depends on to sustain itself.

i don't believe iran would give nukes to terrorists, and i don't believe they'd be stupid enough to use one themselves because both courses of action would require a cataclysmic response.....in other words total annihilation of thier country, if not the entire world.

[ToMyBetterAngel]

That makes sense. However I think that if multiple opposing countries in the middle east gain access to nuclear weapons, it will be only a matter of time before a country will use them preemptively.

If Iran gains nuclear weapons, Israel loses the ability to take away the threat with a conventional military strike for fear of nuclear retaliation. We could have a new arms race/cold war in the middle east. Imagine how dangerous that could be.

I think this is motivation enough for Israel to make a strike on Iran relatively soon. I'm not saying I want this to happen, but I feel it probably will.


(I'm speaking from my understanding of the situation, which could be completely wrong btw.)

[boykosaurus]

Since we're talking about Iran I figured to show you guys this. He was on the Daily Show last night and it looks like he has a really good book out.

eEP7F3QFPV4

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YUTpM8vbL._SS500_.jpg

[saysmydoctor]

I want that book now. The US calling for nuclear proliferation is the most hypocritical thing ever.

[apoemtothedead]

Israel is a nation of constant preemptive strikes, and given their surroundings, I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

[saysmydoctor]

There is everything wrong with that. The US should know:

Iraq.

[apoemtothedead]

There is everything wrong with that. The US should know:

Iraq.
Bad example. The US doesn't border Iraq, nor did Iraq pose any sort of imminent threat on the US. Bordering nations will continue to pose somewhat of an imminent threat upon Israel unto a peace agreement is reached.

[saysmydoctor]

Or we can use Lebanon as an example.

[boykosaurus]

The problem isn't states but groups that operate within states such as Hizbullah in Lebanon. And if you want to fix that problem with might it will take more than just bombing Lebanon, you'd have to go after Syria and Iran as well.

[saysmydoctor]

It doesn't make sense how you simply bomb the infrastructure of a nation simply because a small group of people are attacking another nation--on the fault of the nation being attacked. Will never understand it.

[splitsecond]

Saysmydoctor: because who needs to make a valid argument when you can regurgitate propaganda?

[apoemtothedead]

Saysmydoctor: because who needs to make a valid argument when you can regurgitate propaganda?
You forgot about the part where he calls everyone a "fucking moron." It really helps to make a solid argument.

[splitsecond]

He stole that line from me!

[open mind]

That makes sense. However I think that if multiple opposing countries in the middle east gain access to nuclear weapons, it will be only a matter of time before a country will use them preemptively.

If Iran gains nuclear weapons, Israel loses the ability to take away the threat with a conventional military strike for fear of nuclear retaliation. We could have a new arms race/cold war in the middle east. Imagine how dangerous that could be.

I think this is motivation enough for Israel to make a strike on Iran relatively soon. I'm not saying I want this to happen, but I feel it probably will.


(I'm speaking from my understanding of the situation, which could be completely wrong btw.)

why will it only be a matter of time?

arms races are incredibly expensive, but haven't proven to be sources of violence in and of themselves.

it's only motivation enough if israel is run by insane assholes.......oh wait, i see your point.

[saysmydoctor]

Saysmydoctor: because who needs to make a valid argument when you can regurgitate propaganda?
Someone should inform you what propaganda is, because if I was truly spouting propaganda I would be a nationalistic drone supporting the Iraq War, war against Iran, etc, etc. But seeing as you've yet to counter anything I've said (which is a valid argument, you just don't agree), I'm going to dismiss everything you've said.
Afghanistan, Afghanistan, Afghanistan.
Exactly.

[ToMyBetterAngel]

why will it only be a matter of time?

arms races are incredibly expensive, but haven't proven to be sources of violence in and of themselves.

it's only motivation enough if israel is run by insane assholes.......oh wait, i see your point.


Given the level of animosity between Israel and Iran's governments. But thinking about it now, their leaders would have to be pretty crazy to use nuclear weapons against eachoher.

The only nuclear arms race I am aware of was between the United States and the Soviet Union, and Pakistan and India. And those almost escalated into war on a few occasions. I feel that with Iran and Israel, two countries with arguably less stable governments than America and the USSR, and with arguably more hatred towards eachother, nuclear war would be more likely.

[open mind]

Given the level of animosity between Israel and Iran's governments. But thinking about it now, their leaders would have to be pretty crazy to use nuclear weapons against eachoher.

The only nuclear arms race I am aware of was between the United States and the Soviet Union, and Pakistan and India. And those almost escalated into war on a few occasions. I feel that with Iran and Israel, two countries with arguably less stable governments than America and the USSR, and with arguably more hatred towards eachother, nuclear war would be more likely.

eh, the pakistanis and the indians hate eachother and pakistan isn't all that stable......but niether of those countries was crazy enough to go nuclear.

[saysmydoctor]

Pakistan and India have nukes.

[ToMyBetterAngel]

right, i guess overall this would be just another nuclear stand-off between two opposing countries that isn't likely to escalate into warfare, but still might. If we get enough of these you have to figure eventually nuclear war is inevitable.

but who knows...

[ToMyBetterAngel]

Pakistan and India have nukes.

he meant attack eachother with nukes.

[saysmydoctor]

I thought so, just was clarifying to anyone who read that the other way it could be read.

[splitsecond]

Someone should inform you what propaganda is, because if I was truly spouting propaganda I would be a nationalistic drone supporting the Iraq War, war against Iran, etc, etc. But seeing as you've yet to counter anything I've said (which is a valid argument, you just don't agree), I'm going to dismiss everything you've said.

Exactly.

Wrong and misinformed, yet again:

6 dictionary results for: propaganda
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
prop·a·gan·da [prop-uh-gan-duh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc.
2. the deliberate spreading of such information, rumors, etc.
3. the particular doctrines or principles propagated by an organization or movement.
4. Roman Catholic Church.
a. a committee of cardinals, established in 1622 by Pope Gregory XV, having supervision over foreign missions and the training of priests for these missions.
b. a school (College of Propaganda) established by Pope Urban VIII for the education of priests for foreign missions.
5. Archaic. an organization or movement for the spreading of propaganda.

[saysmydoctor]

What? I know what it means, hello.

[Nevuk]

It's not exactly widely spread, the opposite message (that good relations with Israel = good foreign policy) qualifies far more accurately as propaganda.

[saysmydoctor]

Seriously.

[boykosaurus]

Saysmydoctor: because who needs to make a valid argument when you can regurgitate propaganda?

What do you consider propaganda that he has said?

[open mind]

he meant attack eachother with nukes.

correct.

[saysmydoctor]

I thought so, just was clarifying to anyone who read that the other way it could be read.

correct.
I know. :thumbup:

[ToMyBetterAngel]

Here's a good question I found on yahoo news: Why is Iran's Revolutionary Guards running Iran's ICBM program?

"It is highly significant that Iran's missile program is under the control of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard -- Pasdaran -- the most loyal element of the regime, which combines internal secret police and external intelligence and shock troop functions. It is not controlled by civilians; not even by the regular military."

[phil19]

Here's a good question I found on yahoo news: Why is Iran's Revolutionary Guards running Iran's ICBM program?

"It is highly significant that Iran's missile program is under the control of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard -- Pasdaran -- the most loyal element of the regime, which combines internal secret police and external intelligence and shock troop functions. It is not controlled by civilians; not even by the regular military."

that sounds pretty suss to me

[open mind]

Here's a good question I found on yahoo news: Why is Iran's Revolutionary Guards running Iran's ICBM program?

"It is highly significant that Iran's missile program is under the control of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard -- Pasdaran -- the most loyal element of the regime, which combines internal secret police and external intelligence and shock troop functions. It is not controlled by civilians; not even by the regular military."

sounds alot like thier version of the cia.

[lake of tears]

Iran should be blowm up minus the hot chicks

[saysmydoctor]

Iran should be blowm up minus the hot chicks
:brickwall:

[boykosaurus]

Iran should be blowm up minus the hot chicks
:hitself:

[Nevuk]

Iran should be blowm up minus the hot chicks
That's true of a lot of places... like florida

[boykosaurus]

Or Villanova for that matter.

[ToMyBetterAngel]

that sounds pretty suss to me

It does bother me a little bit. Why wouldn't the ICBM program be under control of the regular military? I'm not going to pretend like I completely understand the implications of this, but it sounds to me like this would give Ahmadinejad more direct control over the program.

[open mind]

It does bother me a little bit. Why wouldn't the ICBM program be under control of the regular military? I'm not going to pretend like I completely understand the implications of this, but it sounds to me like this would give Ahmadinejad more direct control over the program.

the presidency of iran is almost a strictly symbolic position.....all the real power is in the hands of the SUPREME leader.

[boykosaurus]

I wish my course on Iran wasn't canceled this semester :-(

[saysmydoctor]

I still want to know how my arguments weren't valid and were based on propaganda.

[ToMyBetterAngel]

I wish my course on Iran wasn't canceled this semester :-(

An entire course on Iran? I'm sure that would have been an interesting one.

the presidency of iran is almost a strictly symbolic position.....all the real power is in the hands of the SUPREME leader.

So Ahmadinejad doesn't really have any power? Who is this?

[open mind]

An entire course on Iran? I'm sure that would have been an interesting one.



So Ahmadinejad doesn't really have any power? Who is this?

iran's supreme leader is Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.

[phil19]

It does bother me a little bit. Why wouldn't the ICBM program be under control of the regular military? I'm not going to pretend like I completely understand the implications of this, but it sounds to me like this would give Ahmadinejad more direct control over the program.

i wont pretend i understand too much of this either and this may be incredibly ignorant, and if so, my apologies. but, if the nuclear program is simply for power generation and strictly non military purposes, then i dont see why the military should be in control of it either, let alone a body which is even more secretive than the military. i think thats just tempting fate.

[open mind]

i wont pretend i understand too much of this either and this may be incredibly ignorant, and if so, my apologies. but, if the nuclear program is simply for power generation and strictly non military purposes, then i dont see why the military should be in control of it either, let alone a body which is even more secretive than the military. i think thats just tempting fate.

the threat of pre-emptive attack by israel or america might have something to do with it.

[ToMyBetterAngel]

Iran would argue that the threat of an Israel attack on the facilities makes it necessary



what open mind said

[phil19]

the threat of pre-emptive attack by israel or america might have something to do with it.

yes. but surely if you were either of those countries, seeing irans nuclear program controlled by this organization would make you more uneasy than if it was a civilian run program?

[ToMyBetterAngel]

It sure does.

[phil19]

It sure does.

the way i see it then, is that the threat of a pre-emptive attack by either country is more likely because of this.

[ToMyBetterAngel]

I don't think Iran would preemptively strike Israel. That would be complete suicide, keep in mind Israel has a decent nuclear arsenal already. Israel might strike Iran to stop it from gaining its own nuclear weapons but I don't think this is likely either as Russia or China might be obliged to step in on Iran's behalf.

[phil19]

I don't think Iran would preemptively strike Israel. That would be complete suicide, keep in mind Israel has a decent nuclear arsenal already. Israel might strike Iran to stop it from gaining its own nuclear weapons but I don't think this is likely either as Russia or China might be obliged to step in on Iran's behalf.

yeah sorry, thats what i mean. i don't think i said it right.
i think that israel or the US for example are more likely to view a pre-emptive strike against iran as neccessary while irans nuclear program is highly secretive. i think these countries, as well as the rest of the world, would feel alot more comfortable if their program was a little more transparent. i just think that by placing thier program in the hands of this organization, they are just increasing the suspicians of the rest of the world. if that makes sense?

[ToMyBetterAngel]

Israel is definitly thinking very seriously about it. They asked the U.S. for support earlier this year but Bush said no:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,428265,00.html


Who knows, maybe McCain will say yes in a couple months...

[PlacesToGo]

Israel is up their for worst country in the world award.

[phil19]

Israel is definitly thinking very seriously about it. They asked the U.S. for support earlier this year but Bush said no:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,428265,00.html


Who knows, maybe McCain will say yes in a couple months...

well didnt the iranian president say that israel should be wiped off the earth, or somethig similar. its no surprise that israel would respond in such a way. if it really came down to it, im sure the US would back israel if they engaged in miliary action against iran.

[ToMyBetterAngel]

Iran would likely launch a retaliatory attack against both Israel and America, as Israel bombers would have to fly over or near U.S. controlled airspace to reach Iran, giving enough time for America to ask Israel to abort their attack. Thus Iran would assume America gave Israel the ok.

[phil19]

Iran would likely launch a retaliatory attack against both Israel and America, as Israel bombers would have to fly over or near U.S. controlled airspace to reach Iran, giving enough time for America to ask Israel to abort their attack. Thus Iran would assume America gave Israel the ok.

that seems a likely scenario. though i really dont see the US not supporting israel. while id hope they'd strongly advise against war, if it came down to it, there is no way they would let iran and israel duke it out.

[open mind]

yes. but surely if you were either of those countries, seeing irans nuclear program controlled by this organization would make you more uneasy than if it was a civilian run program?

if it's so unsettling it might have been a good idea to drop all the saber rattling long ago......the u.s. being on or near the majority of iran's borders while implying we might attack them has got iran justifiably on edge.

[open mind]

well didnt the iranian president say that israel should be wiped off the earth, or somethig similar. its no surprise that israel would respond in such a way. if it really came down to it, im sure the US would back israel if they engaged in miliary action against iran.

iran's president holds next to no power so it's idiotic to react so much to what he says.

[phil19]

if it's so unsettling it might have been a good idea to drop all the saber rattling long ago......the u.s. being on or near the majority of iran's borders while implying we might attack them has got iran justifiably on edge.

no doubt. i can see why iran would be wary.

iran's president holds next to no power so it's idiotic to react so much to what he says.

i dont know too much about that but i'll take your word on that one. though the israeli's are prone to overreacting and retaliation with extreme force. which i think someone else wrote about.

[ToMyBetterAngel]

http://www.metimes.com/Editorial/2008/10/02/iran_do-nothing_diplomacy_has_merit_at_the_ right_time/9360/

"This (a strike on Iran) would be disastrous for the United States. For the sake of delaying an Iranian nuke for a year or two it would lose popular support among the most pro-American people in the region, it would isolate itself internationally even more than after the Iraq (http://www.metimes.com/Editorial/2008/10/02/iran_do-nothing_diplomacy_has_merit_at_the_ right_time/9360/#) invasion and probably cement formal anti-American alliances revolving around Iran, Russia, and Venezuela. Not least it would likely precipitate Iranian counteractions against the oil supplies flowing through the Strait of Hormuz and increased violence and instability in Iraq, Lebanon, and Palestine fomented by Iran's proxies."

[kshtoinks12]

I still want to know how my arguments weren't valid and were based on propaganda.
Saying Palestinians are walled up like animals = propaganda.

They live in a gated community I think they even have a pool.

[saysmydoctor]

Troll elsewhere.

[phil19]

The President of Iran says a lot of things and none of them as yet warrant starting another war. That said if you in America and your chums in Israel fancy another round of tyrant hunting be my guest. Just count us out and don't come crying when you get burnt.

im actually not in america. im australian. and i never said that they should go to war.

[boykosaurus]

Saying Palestinians are walled up like animals = propaganda.

They live in a gated community I think they even have a pool.

Well there are walls, granted it's not a huge wall throughout the entire border, but it's the principle that most disagree with.

[saysmydoctor]

Well there are walls, granted it's not a huge wall throughout the entire border, but it's the principle that most disagree with.
True, but the plans do include walling the entire West Bank in.

http://media.bonnint.net/apimage/cb5e9154-2ecb-43bb-9ed2-903ee6d9938f.jpg
http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/photos/israeliwall_cp_5025227.jpg
http://www.erasmuspc.com/documenten/citydevelopment/citywalls/wall_of_west_bank_photo_by_gabork.j pg

[kshtoinks12]

The border is 97% fence.

Now do you see where this propaganda thing comes from?

[boykosaurus]

Well then the argument becomes they're caged/fenced like animals.

[kshtoinks12]

I'm just saying, its hard to argue against results.

http://www.adl.org/Israel/israel_attacks.asp

Look how terrorist attacks drop past 05, this is why you can't make the animals comparison, because farm animals wouldn't cause 884 deaths and 5932 injuries between September 2000 and October 2003.

[modlife]

Someone should inform you what propaganda is, because if I was truly spouting propaganda I would be a nationalistic drone supporting the Iraq War, war against Iran, etc, etc.
Exactly.

Equating propaganda with nationalism is fucking moronic.

Fox does indeed spout nationalistic propaganda.

Want communist propaganda - watch CBS and CNN.


Everyone makes the news now, no one fucking reports it.

[boykosaurus]

I'm just saying, its hard to argue against results.

http://www.adl.org/Israel/israel_attacks.asp

Look how terrorist attacks drop past 05, this is why you can't make the animals comparison, because farm animals wouldn't cause 884 deaths and 5932 injuries between September 2000 and October 2003.

The whole problem is that this entire fiasco has both sides to blame. One could easily argue those deaths resulted from Israeli policies pre-2000 and the visit to the mosque with the bodyguards which sparke dthe second Intifada, and but those policies were due to Palestinian violence. It's possible the whole conversation could go back decades or centuries. As a Middle East studies student this is one area I don't like to tackle, because I think both sides have legitimate claims and I have no answers where everyone is happy.

Equating propaganda with nationalism is fucking moronic.

Fox does indeed spout nationalistic propaganda.

Want communist propaganda - watch CBS and CNN.


Everyone makes the news now, no one fucking reports it.

I think you mean MSNBC ;-).

[kshtoinks12]

The whole problem is that this entire fiasco has both sides to blame. One could easily argue those deaths resulted from Israeli policies pre-2000 and the visit to the mosque with the bodyguards which sparke dthe second Intifada, and but those policies were due to Palestinian violence. It's possible the whole conversation could go back decades or centuries. As a Middle East studies student this is one area I don't like to tackle, because I think both sides have legitimate claims and I have no answers where everyone is happy.



I think you mean MSNBC ;-).it doesn't matter who's fault it is or who started what. Currently, Palestinians are killing Israelis, so Israelis lowered their standard of life. what matters is that Israeli lives are being saved.

[modlife]

I think you mean MSNBC ;-).

I mean CBS, CNN, ABC, NBC..

[saysmydoctor]

Equating propaganda with nationalism is fucking moronic.

Fox does indeed spout nationalistic propaganda.

Want communist propaganda - watch CBS and CNN.


Everyone makes the news now, no one fucking reports it.
You missed the point, idiot.

[open mind]

I'm just saying, its hard to argue against results.

http://www.adl.org/Israel/israel_attacks.asp

Look how terrorist attacks drop past 05, this is why you can't make the animals comparison, because farm animals wouldn't cause 884 deaths and 5932 injuries between September 2000 and October 2003.

it's not at all hard to argue against results......obviously extreme measures will work up to a point, if we're going simply by results why not just kill every palestinian? i'm sure that would result in less terrorism.

[open mind]

Equating propaganda with nationalism is fucking moronic.

Fox does indeed spout nationalistic propaganda.

Want communist propaganda - watch CBS and CNN.


Everyone makes the news now, no one fucking reports it.

how are cbs and cnn communist propaganda machines?

[kshtoinks12]

it's not at all hard to argue against results......obviously extreme measures will work up to a point, if we're going simply by results why not just kill every palestinian? i'm sure that would result in less terrorism.Well they definitely shouldn't kill ALL of them.

[boykosaurus]

it doesn't matter who's fault it is or who started what. Currently, Palestinians are killing Israelis, so Israelis lowered their standard of life. what matters is that Israeli lives are being saved.

Well if that's what you truly believe I can't try and point out the failures of both sides.

Well they definitely shouldn't kill ALL of them.

Ummmm...even if this is a poor joke I don't know how to respond to it.

[open mind]

Well they definitely shouldn't kill ALL of them.

i don't think you'd find it acceptable if someone said this about jews even if it was in jest.

[kshtoinks12]

Well if that's what you truly believe I can't try and point out the failures of both sides.



Ummmm...even if this is a poor joke I don't know how to respond to it.
Here's how I look at it. If everyone in North Dakota was suicide bombing the US, what would you do? The wall only seems like an apartheid wall because there's two races involved. I don't hate Palestinians or blame them for anything, I just want my people to be safe.
i don't think you'd find it acceptable if someone said this about jews even if it was in jest.
Sorry, I didn't really mean for that to come out that brash.

[Machu505]

If everyone in North Dakota was suicide bombing the US, what would you do?

Nobody lives in North Dakota, silly.

[boykosaurus]

siq burn on ND

[open mind]

Sorry, I didn't really mean for that to come out that brash.
you sure about that? the way alot the hardcore pro-israel lobby talks it wouldn't suprise me if you really meant it.

[kshtoinks12]

you sure about that? the way alot the hardcore pro-israel lobby talks it wouldn't suprise me if you really meant it.
I don't want any Palestinians do to die. I just want all the Israelis to live.

[open mind]

I don't want any Palestinians do to die. I just want all the Israelis to live.

if a thousand palestinians had to die to save the life of one israeli would you say it was worth it?

[kshtoinks12]

if a thousand palestinians had to die to save the life of one israeli would you say it was worth it?If a thousand innocent Palestinians had to die to save an Israeli, then no its not worth it, but if it was a thousand Palestinian men chasing after an innocent Israeli with pitchforks or something, then yes, it could be a million.

[FScott]

make it 6 million!

[saysmydoctor]

I like how my posts are considered more controversial than Sam's. The Israelis are no where near innocent and neither are the Palestinians.

[kshtoinks12]

I didn't say anyone's anything. I said 'IF'. There are some Israeli's that refuse to even join the IDF, and there's some Palestinians that have never picked up a rock in their life.

[saysmydoctor]

I wouldn't join the IDF either. True definition of a terrorist organization.

At least Hamas fights for what people want. I may disagree with their tactics, but the West created the need for such an organization.

[kshtoinks12]

IDF a terrorist organization? Not fighting for what people want? Maybe you should have a conversation with an actual Israeli before declaring all Israelis who join it a terrorist.

[LastPlaceRocks]

I didn't say anyone's anything. I said 'IF'. There are some Israeli's that refuse to even join the IDF, and there's some Palestinians that have never picked up a rock in their life.
Don't get me started on the Israeli Orthodox.

I wouldn't join the IDF either. True definition of a terrorist organization.

At least Hamas fights for what people want. I may disagree with their tactics, but the West created the need for such an organization.
Thanks for calling my mother and myself terrorists.

[boykosaurus]

:popcorn:

[MyWorldEntire]

Since we're talking about Iran I figured to show you guys this. He was on the Daily Show last night and it looks like he has a really good book out.

eEP7F3QFPV4

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YUTpM8vbL._SS500_.jpg

That was a great video, I should definitely check out that book.

[kshtoinks12]

Don't get me started on the Israeli Orthodox.


Thanks for calling my mother and myself terrorists.
I wouldn't generalize the entire group of them. I've met some very nice Israeli Orthodox.

[kshtoinks12]

Yeah, I wasn't going to directly attack him about that, but there's a damn good chance I'll be in IDF by the end of my life.

[Machu505]

I wanna join the Iceland Defense Force too.

[saysmydoctor]

IDF a terrorist organization? Not fighting for what people want? Maybe you should have a conversation with an actual Israeli before declaring all Israelis who join it a terrorist.
Maybe you should consider those people being held down by the IDF.

[kshtoinks12]

Maybe you should consider those people being held down by the IDF.Jesus Christ, for some reason, I just assumed you knew what you were talking about in this forum, but its pretty clear you're just spouting your propagandas liberal bullshit.

[open mind]

If a thousand innocent Palestinians had to die to save an Israeli, then no its not worth it, but if it was a thousand Palestinian men chasing after an innocent Israeli with pitchforks or something, then yes, it could be a million.

how do you define innocent?
edit: overlooked the word innocent in that sentence.

this sort of stuff seems to be causing all sorts of grief for innocent palestinians.
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=17362

[saysmydoctor]

Jesus Christ, for some reason, I just assumed you knew what you were talking about in this forum, but its pretty clear you're just spouting your propagandas liberal bullshit.
That's right.

[kshtoinks12]

how do you define innocent?
edit: overlooked the word innocent in that sentence.

this sort of stuff seems to be causing all sorts of grief for innocent palestinians.
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=17362
Israel's occupation of Palestinian territory.
That's all I needed to read before I can consider this bias bullshit. There is no Palestine. Palestine is not a country. There is no Palestinian territory, just places where Israel has ceded land to allow Palestinians to live.

[ToMyBetterAngel]

We're getting into rocky territory here...

[saysmydoctor]

That's such BULLSHIT. How you sound, honestly.

[open mind]

That's all I needed to read before I can consider this bias bullshit. There is no Palestine. Palestine is not a country. There is no Palestinian territory, just places where Israel has ceded land to allow Palestinians to live.

no, palestine is simply not a country that israel and it's allies recognize.....which comes in handy when trampling on their people's human rights.

way to avoid my larger point that innocent palestinians are in no uncertain terms routinely mistreated (to say the least) by israel though.

[FScott]

Jesus Christ

what an angry jew u r!

[open mind]

what an angry jew u r!

why out of all the sperm that's been shot into your mom were you the one that made it?

[saysmydoctor]

why out of all the sperm that's been shot into your mom were you the one that made it?
:rotfl: :lol:

:appl:

[kshtoinks12]

no, palestine is simply not a country that israel and it's allies recognize.....which comes in handy when trampling on their people's human rights.

way to avoid my larger point that innocent palestinians are in no uncertain terms routinely mistreated (to say the least) by israel though.I don't deny innocent Palestinians being mistreated, I just question the extent to which they're mistreated, that's something I wouldn't trust any article to describe to me, I'd have to see it for myself.

[open mind]

I don't deny innocent Palestinians being mistreated, I just question the extent to which they're mistreated, that's something I wouldn't trust any article to describe to me, I'd have to see it for myself.

yeah man, well respected human rights organizations and (the not so respected anymore) u.n. shouldn't be taken at thier word.
i hate the bullshit bias arguments zionists are always using.....simply saying bias doesn't make it so, you have to prove it by conclusively showing people are distorting the facts.

[saysmydoctor]

You have to see it? That's like saying you have to see the murder or you, as a jurist, can't say guilty or not guilty. Shut the fuck up.

[kshtoinks12]

yeah man, well respected human rights organizations and (the not so respected anymore) u.n. shouldn't be taken at thier word.
i hate the bullshit bias arguments zionists are always using.....simply saying bias doesn't make it so, you have to prove it by conclusively showing people are distorting the facts.There's such an obvious onslaught in these reports that its almost embarrassing to journalism.

[kshtoinks12]

You have to see it? That's like saying you have to see the murder or you, as a jurist, can't say guilty or not guilty. Shut the fuck up.
That's an absolutely terrible analogy, and telling someone to 'shut the fuck up' doesn't validate you in an argument.

[saysmydoctor]

That's an absolutely terrible analogy, and telling someone to 'shut the fuck up' doesn't validate you in an argument.
Your argument that there being no Palestine means the Israelis can do whatever the fuck they want is the biggest crock of shit. If you want to troll, go back to your proper domain. You are a fucking idiot. Palestinians are people too and while no side is anymore in the right, at least the Palestinians have a reason. High unemployment, poverty, walled in like animals. It's bullshit.

[kshtoinks12]

Your argument that there being no Palestine means the Israelis can do whatever the fuck they want is the biggest crock of shit. If you want to troll, go back to your proper domain. You are a fucking idiot. Palestinians are people too and while no side is anymore in the right, at least the Palestinians have a reason. High unemployment, poverty, walled in like animals. It's bullshit.You're either retarded or illiterate. I never said that Israelis can do what they want because there's no Palestine. Of course you believe these bullshit pro-palestine new sources, you make up almost as much shit as they do.

[saysmydoctor]

I'm not pro-Palestine, try again.

[kshtoinks12]

Once again, you fail to actually read my posts. Where do I call you pro-palestine? This must be really embarrassing for you.

[saysmydoctor]

Not really? If I am not pro-Palestine, I wouldn't read pro-Palestine sites or articles, because I know their direction.

I wouldn't be saying anything is embarrassing for me when you come in here, posting statist talking points.

[kshtoinks12]

Haha, are you saying that people that aren't pro-palestine don't read pro-palestine articles?

[Praetor]

Too much hate ITT. Needs more love.

http://www.tailgatershandbook.com/Images/Heart.jpg

no homo

[open mind]

There's such an obvious onslaught in these reports that its almost embarrassing to journalism.

please explain how there is an obvious inaccuracy or bias.
of course there's an onslaught going on here.....but it's not an onslaught against israel, it's an onslaught against those who deny the people of the world their basic human rights.

[open mind]

Haha, are you saying that people that aren't pro-palestine don't read pro-palestine articles?

i don't read pro-palestine articles, i read pro-human rights articles.

[open mind]

That's an absolutely terrible analogy, and telling someone to 'shut the fuck up' doesn't validate you in an argument.

why is it a terrible analogy?
i don't think it's a bad one because many innocent palestinians have been killed because of israeli policies.

[kshtoinks12]

please explain how there is an obvious inaccuracy or bias.
of course there's an onslaught going on here.....but it's not an onslaught against israel, it's an onslaught against those who deny the people of the world their basic human rights.There's a bias for Palestinians because its easy to take the side of the underdog. They have no real nation, they're fenced in, and their quality of life is slipping, but when discussing these terrible things, its far too often left out why they're in the spot that they're in. Their leaders have been calling for the death of Jews/Israelis for 60 years, their citizens, men, women, even children have been attacking, killing innoncent citizens, who had nothing to do with their hardships, and their education system preaches death and destruction. As innoncent as Palestinian children seem and as hard their life has been, they're more than happy to slit a Jew's throat.

[saysmydoctor]

i don't read pro-palestine articles, i read pro-human rights articles.
This.

[saysmydoctor]

There's a bias for Palestinians because its easy to take the side of the underdog. They have no real nation, they're fenced in, and their quality of life is slipping, but when discussing these terrible things, its far too often left out why they're in the spot that they're in. Their leaders have been calling for the death of Jews/Israelis for 60 years, their citizens, men, women, even children have been attacking, killing innoncent citizens, who had nothing to do with their hardships, and their education system preaches death and destruction. As innoncent as Palestinian children seem and as hard their life has been, they're more than happy to slit a Jew's throat.
I would too.

[open mind]

There's a bias for Palestinians because its easy to take the side of the underdog. They have no real nation, they're fenced in, and their quality of life is slipping, but when discussing these terrible things, its far too often left out why they're in the spot that they're in. Their leaders have been calling for the death of Jews/Israelis for 60 years, their citizens, men, women, even children have been attacking, killing innoncent citizens, who had nothing to do with their hardships, and their education system preaches death and destruction. As innoncent as Palestinian children seem and as hard their life has been, they're more than happy to slit a Jew's throat.

ok dude, fuck you, you're obviously a bigoted asshole not worth talking to.....silly of me to think you might be capable of holding a serious discussion without resorting to falling back on broad generalizations and arguments that depend on repugnant and despicable logic to justify the inhumane treatment of millions of people.

[saysmydoctor]

Sam, this must be embarrassing, being a raging fucking idiot and all.

[kshtoinks12]

ok dude, fuck you, you're obviously a bigoted asshole not worth talking to.....silly of me to think you might be capable of holding a real discussion without making broad generalizations that depend on horrible logic to justify the inhumane treatment of millions of people.Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you wanted to hear both sides of the argument. Silly of me to think you are capable of thinking from another standpoint.

[open mind]

Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you wanted to hear both sides of the argument. Silly of me to think you are capable of thinking from another standpoint.

standpoints that depend on flawed logic, and unabashed racism are not standpoints anyone with a decent amount of intelligence will accept.

[Machu505]

As innoncent as Israeli children seem and as hard their life has been, they're more than happy to slit a Muslim's throat.

How much sense does this make?

[kshtoinks12]

Sam, this must be embarrassing, being a raging fucking idiot and all.

I would too.
You are so many things its ridiculous.
1) what the fuck is trolling? Get the fuck off of /b/ and AP and get into the real world, where you can see suffering, don't settle for hippy pussy bullshit that tells you what to think.
2) You aren't funny, you never have been funny, by my super linear correlation skills, I can safely say you'll never generate a half serious laugh out of anyone with the sense of humor of a 12 year old or older.
3) If you INSIST on having an argument with someone who is CLEARLY smarter than you, littering you comments with various insults and bullshit justifications is only going to make you look worse, even if you are among friends

and finally
4) I knew you were retarded when I saw that you attended what I once thought was a ghetto street corner as a college, but now I clearly know. Have fun living life on the brink of being shot day in an day out and enjoy being NYs MOST WIRED UNIVERSITY!

go fuck yourself.

[kshtoinks12]

How much sense does this make?
None, because its 100% not true. It really really isn't.

[Machu505]

Oh snap

[Machu505]

None, because its 100% not true. It really really isn't.

How is what you said 100% true either? It was a broad generalization, as was mine.

[open mind]

None, because its 100% not true. It really really isn't.

...........but palestinian children are all just cute looking monsters right?

i'm generally a pretty civil guy willing to have a discussion with anyone in an amicable fashion......but you're a real piece of shit, and i hope you catch a tenacious case of herpes.

[Machu505]

...........but palestinian children are all just cute looking monsters right?

Don't feed us your hippy pussy bullshit.

[kshtoinks12]

How is what you said 100% true either? It was a broad generalization, as was mine.
Because Palestinian Children are taught to want to kill Jews and be martyrs, as Israeli children are not.

[saysmydoctor]

You are so many things its ridiculous.
1) what the fuck is trolling? Get the fuck off of /b/ and AP and get into the real world, where you can see suffering, don't settle for hippy pussy bullshit that tells you what to think.
2) You aren't funny, you never have been funny, by my super linear correlation skills, I can safely say you'll never generate a half serious laugh out of anyone with the sense of humor of a 12 year old or older.
3) If you INSIST on having an argument with someone who is CLEARLY smarter than you, littering you comments with various insults and bullshit justifications is only going to make you look worse, even if you are among friends

and finally
4) I knew you were retarded when I saw that you attended what I once thought was a ghetto street corner as a college, but now I clearly know. Have fun living life on the brink of being shot day in an day out and enjoy being NYs MOST WIRED UNIVERSITY!

go fuck yourself.
Congratulations, none of this legitimate to the argument at hand. I guess if I don't agree with the mainstream pro-Israel media-driven opinion, I guess that makes me a part of the counterculture.

You definitely aren't smarter than anyone here. Regardless of what college you go, how many languages you speak, and whatever vocabulary you developed off dictionary.com, doesn't make you smart. You are spouting fallacious arguments, appealing to emotion, and using what-if scenarios to prove points--all while twisting it into some shitstorm generalization.

And then because you can't counter my argument, you attack me and the school I go to. Try again with an actual logic-based argument.

Edit: Also, transferring to SUNY Binghamton in the fall.

[open mind]

Because Palestinian Children are taught to want to kill Jews and be martyrs, as Israeli children are not.

do you not plan on joining the idf? does israel not encourage it's population to do the same?

[saysmydoctor]

do you not plan on joining the idf? does israel not encourage it's population to do the same?
It's different, obviously. They are using guns and tanks, not carbombs and rocks.

[kshtoinks12]

do you not plan on joining the idf? does israel not encourage it's population to do the same?
I'd join the IDF to do exactly what the name implies. Defend Israel.

[open mind]

I'd join the IDF to do exactly what the name implies. Defend Israel.

you can dress it up anyway you like, but encouraging people to involve themselves in lethal conflict in any way, shape, or form........is still encouraging people to involve themselves in lethal conflict.

if all the idf did was defend israel they wouldn't move in, claim large areas of land, refuse to turn them back over.....and you know systemattically fuck over innocent people........oh wait nevermind there's no such thing as an innocent palestinian in your book, silly of me to appeal to you on those grounds.

[kshtoinks12]

you can dress it up anyway you like, but encouraging people to involve themselves in lethal conflict in any way, shape, or form........is still encouraging people to involve themselves in lethal conflict.Like how the US army has been doing for years? Having citizens join the army isn't anything bad, its part of surviving. In fact, with the IDF fighting for survival and the US army fighting overseas, I don't see how you can accuse the IDF of being worse

And just so saysmydoctor doesn't completely flip around anything I say on me regardless of how true it is, I don't think that the US army is a terrorist organization, or anything evil for that matter.

[kshtoinks12]

you can dress it up anyway you like, but encouraging people to involve themselves in lethal conflict in any way, shape, or form........is still encouraging people to involve themselves in lethal conflict.

if all the idf did was defend israel they wouldn't move in, claim large areas of land, refuse to turn them back over.....and you know systemattically fuck over innocent people........oh wait nevermind there's no such thing as an innocent palestinian in your book, silly of me to appeal to you on those grounds.
For maybe the 4th or 5th time in this thread. I never said that, stop being a conniving snake.

Maybe you don't know how war works, but in the cases where Israel has taken land, they have never been unprompted.

[open mind]

Like how the US army has been doing for years? Having citizens join the army isn't anything bad, its part of surviving. In fact, with the IDF fighting for survival and the US army fighting overseas, I don't see how you can accuse the IDF of being worse

And just so saysmydoctor doesn't completely flip around anything I say on me regardless of how true it is, I don't think that the US army is a terrorist organization, or anything evil for that matter.

i strongly disagree with u.s. foreign policy, and hate the amount of power the military industrial complex holds here.....so i don't have to accuse the idf of being worse in order to hate the policies of israel.

[open mind]

For maybe the 4th or 5th time in this thread. I never said that, stop being a conniving snake.

Maybe you don't know how war works, but in the cases where Israel has taken land, they have never been unprompted.

yeah you didn't use those words exactly.....but you did say that israel probably shouldn't kill ALL the palestinians in response to my argument that results aren't everything.......and you did say that palestinian children aren't really innocent because they really want to "slit a jew's throat"......and you did attempt justify the systemic brutalization of the palestinians on those grounds.....so it's not exactly a huge leap in logic to say that you really believe there is no such thing as a innocent palestinian.

haha....don't be condescending, i know how war works......and you know what? it usually doesn't involve theft of large chunks of real estate anymore.

[saysmydoctor]

Like how the US army has been doing for years? Having citizens join the army isn't anything bad, its part of surviving. In fact, with the IDF fighting for survival and the US army fighting overseas, I don't see how you can accuse the IDF of being worse

And just so saysmydoctor doesn't completely flip around anything I say on me regardless of how true it is, I don't think that the US army is a terrorist organization, or anything evil for that matter.
The US military (the Army is only one branch of the military) can be construed as a terrorist organization, just like the IDF. My dad is a Marine, and while I support the troops and hope they come home safe, what they are doing is terrible.

Both organizations are fairly similar, in a sense. Both military infrastructures have way too much say in government.
For maybe the 4th or 5th time in this thread. I never said that, stop being a conniving snake.

Maybe you don't know how war works, but in the cases where Israel has taken land, they have never been unprompted.
Unprompted? The Lebanese incursion was an invasion of a sovereign to search for the bodies of TWO soldiers. Look up the numbers of those who joined them in depth in the illegal invasion of a nation that wasn't even responsible for the original two that died. S
i strongly disagree with u.s. foreign policy, and hate the amount of power the military industrial complex holds here.....so i don't have to accuse the idf of being worse in order to hate the policies of israel.
This.

[kshtoinks12]

The US military (the Army is only one branch of the military) can be construed as a terrorist organization, just like the IDF. My dad is a Marine, and while I support the troops and hope they come home safe, what they are doing is terrible.

Both organizations are fairly similar, in a sense. Both military infrastructures have way too much say in government.

Unprompted? The Lebanese incursion was an invasion of a sovereign to search for the bodies of TWO soldiers. Look up the numbers of those who joined them in depth in the illegal invasion of a nation that wasn't even responsible for the original two that died. S

This.
Lebanon had been shelling bordering Israeli Kibbutzim and sniping Golan farmers for years before the invasion, so just because the straw that broke the back wasn't enough, on the whole it was justified.

[open mind]

this conversation will never get anywhere as religious zealots of this magnitude can't really be reasoned with.....so i'll just say that systemattically brutalizing one's neighbors is counter productive when it comes to all but one thing.......insuring never ending conflict.

peace.

[saysmydoctor]

Think you mean Hezbollah and how the PLO used the Lebanese Civil War to attack Israel. Right?

[saysmydoctor]

Also notable, the Lebanese government actually attacked Hezbollah to help the Israelis.

But whatever.

[kshtoinks12]

Haha, I'm far from a religious zealot.

[open mind]

Haha, I'm far from a religious zealot.

.....said the bigoted zionist.

[kshtoinks12]

Yeah, and they lost. Israel invaded Hezbollah-land, not Lebanese controlled land.

[kshtoinks12]

Didn't you just leave? For someone named 'open mind' you're pretty close minded.

[open mind]

Didn't you just leave? For someone named 'open mind' you're pretty close minded.

was about to......i'm done with this debate right after this.
being open minded doesn't require blind acceptance of horrible arguments or tolerance of racist fucks.

[saysmydoctor]

Yeah, and they lost. Israel invaded Hezbollah-land, not Lebanese controlled land.
Hey, tool, just because Hezbollah-controlled land, doesn't mean it's not part of the sovereign nation of Lebanon. Also, for a nation that condemns the killing of civilians, they sure killed a lot: http://web.archive.org/web/20070630133336/http://www.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/specialsession/A.HRC.3.2.pdf

Of course, Israel learned such hypocrisy from its Western grand papa, the United States.
Didn't you just leave? For someone named 'open mind' you're pretty close minded.
Trolling it up.

[Lueda Alia]

Because Palestinian Children are taught to want to kill Jews and be martyrs, as Israeli children are not.
It's still unfair to say that a Palestinian child would want to slit a Jew's throat.

I find your statement hypocritical, anyway. The things you are saying sound pretty hateful, too, so you (as a Jew) must have also been taught to hate Palestinians.

[asmolitor]

was about to......i'm done with this debate right after this.
being open minded doesn't require blind acceptance of horrible arguments or tolerance of racist fucks.

that's probably one of the better quotable moments in this forum. kudos.

[boykosaurus]

Holy shit this thread was awesome.

[boykosaurus]

http://www.icahd.org/icahdukdev/eng/images%5Cuploaded%5Carticles%5C378. jpg

[saysmydoctor]

This thread is disgusting, not awesome.

[boykosaurus]

:shrug:

[kshtoinks12]

It's still unfair to say that a Palestinian child would want to slit a Jew's throat.

I find your statement hypocritical, anyway. The things you are saying sound pretty hateful, too, so you (as a Jew) must have also been taught to hate Palestinians.I'm just extrapolating for the countless videos I've seen of television aimed towards children from various arab nations encouraging them to be martyrs and that the US and Jews are spawn of Satan. I was never raised to hate Palestinians, I was brought up told that tons of nations want to kill Jews and have killed Jews, and I just want for us to be able to defend ourselves, now that we finally have an upperhand and our own homeland. I don't think the things I'm saying are out of line at all.

Hey, tool, just because Hezbollah-controlled land, doesn't mean it's not part of the sovereign nation of Lebanon. Also, for a nation that condemns the killing of civilians, they sure killed a lot: http://web.archive.org/web/20070630133336/http://www.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/specialsession/A.HRC.3.2.pdf

Of course, Israel learned such hypocrisy from its Western grand papa, the United States.

Trolling it up.

First of all, I'm not going to read that entire docket, but from what I gathered its a UN bill, its bitching that Israel didn't give Lebanese citizens enough time to leave?
This is almost a direct analogy to US's invasion of Vietnam, except Israel was actually being attacked in this case. Its not easy to tell apart a convoy of citizens and a convoy of Hezbollah, and of course in war, there's going to be civilian casualties, quite like how in Vietnam, S. Vietnamese and N.
Vietnamese were tragically mixed up. No matter what you say, you can never convince me that this war had no legitimate reason.

If you're a soldier at war, your job is to kill whats left, its obviously brutal, but its your job. Not saying I condone it, but when it comes to protecting your country from your neighbors, its what has to be done.

I'm sorry you don't understand the concepts of total war, but its an aspect of humanity you just can't change.

And I swear to god, this isn't /b/, stop saying 'troll'. You're not funny, and its just an irritating meme that I honesty have no idea what it means.

[captainhampton]

I'm just extrapolating for the countless videos I've seen of television aimed towards children from various arab nations encouraging them to be martyrs and that the US and Jews are spawn of Satan. I was never raised to hate Palestinians, I was brought up told that tons of nations want to kill Jews and have killed Jews, and I just want for us to be able to defend ourselves, now that we finally have an upperhand and our own homeland. I don't think the things I'm saying are out of line at all.


the indoctrination of the young children is really scary stuff.

[kshtoinks12]

They actually had to stop using the mickey mouse looking character because Disney threatened to sue, so they had him killed off by a Jew on air.


Here's the transcript of the episode.


TrieBhaGgHM
Farfour, Hamas’ Mickey Mouse Character, Is ‘Martyred’ in the Final Episode of the “Pioneers of Tomorrow” Children Show on Hamas TV
Following are excerpts from the final episode of “The Pioneers of Tomorrow,” a children’s TV show featuring Farfour, a Mickey Mouse character in a tuxedo, which aired on Al-Aqsa TV on June 29, 2007:

Farfour’s grandfather: I want to give you something in trust before I die, and I want you to safeguard it, Farfour.

Farfour: What is it this trust I am supposed to safeguard, grandpa? …

Farfour’s grandfather: This land, which was [occupied] in 1948, is the land I inherited from my fathers and forefathers. I want you to protect it. It is a beautiful land, all covered in flowers and olive and palm trees. I want you to take care of it, Farfour.

Farfour: What is this land called, grandpa?

Farfour’s grandfather: The land is called Tel Al-Rabi’. But unfortunately, the Jews called it “Tel Aviv” after they occupied it…

I want you to safeguard this, Farfour. Keep this key with you. When the land is regained, use this key, Farfour.

Farfour: This key, grandpa?

Farfour’s grandfather: That’s right. And these are the documents proving that the land is ours, Farfour. I am entrusting you with this, Farfour. Make sure you don’t give up the land, Farfour.

Farfour: Don’t worry, grandpa.

Farfour’s grandfather: Farfour, I am very tired. I feel that I am about to die. I feel very close to the land of Tel Al-Rabi’. I hope you will protect it.

Farfour: Yes. Grandpa… Grandpa…

Farfour’s grandfather: Grandpa entrusted me with this great trust, but I don’t know how to liberate this land from the filth of the criminal, plundering Jews, who killed my grandpa and everybody.

“Farfour is interrogated”

Farfour: What do you want from me? Why have you brought me here?

Israeli interrogator: Sit down, my dear Farfour.

Farfour: I don’t want to.

Interrogator: Sit down, Farfour.

Farfour: Okay, I will sit down.

Tell me what you want.

Interrogator: We’ve heard your grandfather gave you the keys and the documents of the land.

Farfour: Who told you?

Interrogator: It’s none of your business who told us, Farfour. What we need…

Farfour: Well, what do you want from me?

Interrogator: Farfour, we want you to give us the land documents.

Farfour: These are the land documents which my grandpa entrusted to me, so that I would safeguard them and use them to liberate Jerusalem. When the lands are liberated, we will go and live there. Give them to you? My grandpa didn’t tell me to give them to you.

Interrogator: You’ll get lots of money, and we’ll take the documents, and that’s it.

Farfour: No, we’re not the kind of people who sell their land to terrorists.

Interrogator: Farfour, give us the documents we want.

Farfour: I’m not giving you the documents.

Interrogator: Farfour!

Farfour: I won’t give you the documents.

Interrogator: Give us the documents, Farfour. Will you or will you not give us the documents, Farfour?

Farfour: I won’t give them to criminal despicable terrorists.

Interrogator: You’re calling us despicable terrorists, Farfour?

“Farfour in prison”

Host, Saraa, a young girl: Yes, my dear children, we have lost our dearest friend, Farfour. Farfour was martyred while defending his land, the land of his fathers and his forefathers. He was martyred at the hand of the criminals, the murderers, the murderers of innocent children, who killed Iman Hijo, Muhammad Al-Dura, and many others.

[saysmydoctor]

I'm just extrapolating for the countless videos I've seen of television aimed towards children from various arab nations encouraging them to be martyrs and that the US and Jews are spawn of Satan. I was never raised to hate Palestinians, I was brought up told that tons of nations want to kill Jews and have killed Jews, and I just want for us to be able to defend ourselves, now that we finally have an upperhand and our own homeland. I don't think the things I'm saying are out of line at all.



First of all, I'm not going to read that entire docket, but from what I gathered its a UN bill, its bitching that Israel didn't give Lebanese citizens enough time to leave?
This is almost a direct analogy to US's invasion of Vietnam, except Israel was actually being attacked in this case. Its not easy to tell apart a convoy of citizens and a convoy of Hezbollah, and of course in war, there's going to be civilian casualties, quite like how in Vietnam, S. Vietnamese and N.
Vietnamese were tragically mixed up. No matter what you say, you can never convince me that this war had no legitimate reason.

If you're a soldier at war, your job is to kill whats left, its obviously brutal, but its your job. Not saying I condone it, but when it comes to protecting your country from your neighbors, its what has to be done.

I'm sorry you don't understand the concepts of total war, but its an aspect of humanity you just can't change.

And I swear to god, this isn't /b/, stop saying 'troll'. You're not funny, and its just an irritating meme that I honesty have no idea what it means.
Stop legitimizing what Israel did by drawing corollaries to Vietnam. Two wrongs don't make a right, logical fallacy.

Don't give me the 'as a soldier' bullshit. You aren't a soldier. I'm not a soldier, my dad is however and he has held a gun in Afghanistan. You don't know what total war is--if you did, you wouldn't be encouraging it. It happened to your people in the past.

[boykosaurus]

Israel had the right to respond to what Hizbullah did, but definitely went overboard, and there are some similarities to draw between Vietnam and Israel since they both shed light on aspects of just war concerning guerrilla warfare.

[saysmydoctor]

The incursion into Lebanon violated so many international laws, it's not even funny.

[kshtoinks12]

Stop legitimizing what Israel did by drawing corollaries to Vietnam. Two wrongs don't make a right, logical fallacy.

Don't give me the 'as a soldier' bullshit. You aren't a soldier. I'm not a soldier, my dad is however and he has held a gun in Afghanistan. You don't know what total war is--if you did, you wouldn't be encouraging it. It happened to your people in the past.
Israel did what it had to do, and I'll leave it at that. I'm so impressed by your dad's occupation though that I'm at a total loss for words. I'm just in awe of how smart you are because your dad has served duty, that I can't even think of a comeback.

[saysmydoctor]

The point was that you can't use the 'as a soldier' argument because you aren't a soldier. I'm not either, hence why you'll never hear or see me make some militaristic argument I know nothing about. I'm not an ignorant fuck like that.

[kshtoinks12]

I think I play Call of Duty 4 enough to know what war is like thank you very much.

[ToMyBetterAngel]

Getting back on track...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081006/wl_nm/us_israel_iran_1

"The United States will not permit Israel to attack Iran's nuclear program as long as American troops are stationed in Iraq, an Israeli television report quoting unnamed diplomatic sources said on Monday."

I'm pretty sure Israel would not attack Iran without some semblance of support from the U.S., so I guess the answer to the question of the thread is no; at least for now.

[saysmydoctor]

I think I play Call of Duty 4 enough to know what war is like thank you very much.
You are a fucking joke of a poster. It's pretty audacious of you to storm into this forum, spout uneducated fucking douchebaggery and try to play it off like I'm the idiot when you are revealed as the most bigoted racist fuck I've ever encountered. Stop TROLLING and go back to the appropriate domain for uneducated dumbasses.

[Nevuk]

This thread amused me, but for all the wrong reasons.

[PDon11]

If it weren't for America, Europe and China, Iran would have nothing.


OH MY FUCKING GOD I HOPE YOUR KIDDING. America, and England are both the cause of Iran's degradation. Ever hear of Operation AJAX?

[Nevuk]

Is that the one where the US instated a brutal dictator in Iran?

[PDon11]

Is that the one where the US instated a brutal dictator in Iran?


Leading to huge resentment by most Iranians, causing the revolution in 1979? Yup thats the one.

[PDon11]

But can you blame the US and England? Iran wanted more than their normal 5% of oil profits, greedy fuckers.

[Nevuk]

Leading to huge resentment by most Iranians, causing the revolution in 1979? Yup thats the one.
I just didn't know the official title of the operation
But can you blame the US and England? Iran wanted more than their normal 5% of oil profits, greedy fuckers.
I mean, a lot of the conflict with Iraq is that the borders were pretty much arbitrarily drawn by the English (might have been the French), really it's suprising they don't hate the West more.

[ActionActionFan]

OH MY FUCKING GOD I HOPE YOUR KIDDING. America, and England are both the cause of Iran's degradation. Ever hear of Operation AJAX?

45% of Iran's GDP comes from exporting oil to mainly America and England. You are really going to tell me that America, England and a couple other countries aren't the reason Iran have everything that they have today.

Edit: By the way after AJAX, support for America in Iran was at one of its highest levels in history.