Agnostic, Atheist, other "non-conformists"

[JBernal]

I personally am a nihilist...but I would like to maybe spark up a debate here between various religions.
Not here to diss on anyone's beliefs...because I fully respect all of them.
Just thought it would be interesting for everyone to share theirs and why they believe what they do.

[The_kok]

OmG i JuSt DisCoveREd SchOpeNHauEr AnD NoA Im Da sHiT 4EvUr

[Machu505]

I'm a Jedi Knight.

[JBernal]

Oh. Right.
And I'm an adult and thought someone might want to share a sensible conversation.

[Adeniz19]

Oh. Right.
And I'm an adult and thought someone might want to share a sensible conversation.the jedi religion is real

www.jedichurch.org

[Machu505]

the jedi religion is real

www.jedichurch.org (http://www.jedichurch.org)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedi_census_phenomenon

4th largest religion in England and Wales.

[forgottendreams]

Jedi is not a real religion, it is just a group of pretentious twats who think they're funny.

[Adeniz19]

Jedi is not a real religion, it is just a group of pretentious twats who think they're funny.Way to be open to other people's beliefs.

[TK]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedi_census_phenomenon

4th largest religion in England and Wales.

hahaha

[FScott]

Oh. Right.
And I'm an adult and thought someone might want to share a sensible conversation.

But if you're a nihilist.. how does one define "sensible conversation". You can't prove it.. And so obviously it doesn't exist. Does it matter? Does anything really matter? :-(

[open mind]

i'm an orthodox christian.
i was brought up in it and hated it, fell out of it, did alot of soul searching and research, and found that the theology isn't as nutty as detractors would have you believe.
i see all of existence (from the laws of science to the chair i'm sitting on) as evidence of god.

[thespearkid]

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/angiealan123/i-am-a-banana.gif

[saysmydoctor]

Jedi is not a real religion, it is just a group of pretentious twats who think they're funny.
Oh, like the majority of atheists and agnostics and other non-conformists aren't pretentious twats.
It was very funny and was one of the few times I was proud of my country.
UnEnglish.

[open mind]

from my experience on this forum it's more non-conforming to profess a faith in god.

[eraserhead]

I'm agnostic

[Smash Adams]

flying spaghetti monster ftw
but no I'm basically agnostic, I want to believe in God but I have a really hard time reading the Bible as anything other than the Judeo-Christian version of Aesop's Fables

[CTMarshall]

from my experience on this forum it's more non-conforming to profess a faith in god.

Truth. I'm a Christian and I attend a Southern Baptist Church that holds Calvinistic beliefs. I don't agree with everything, but that doesn't effect my Christianity.

[Nevuk]

I'm an atheist with regards as to Christianity. If their God is real, I'd rather burn in his hell. Haven't studied the other religions enough to know.

[open mind]

I'm an atheist with regards as to Christianity. If their God is real, I'd rather burn in his hell. Haven't studied the other religions enough to know.

i'd rather not turn this into a debate, but you should know that a very large chunk of christians believe hell isn't some sort of eternal burning torture chamber but rather a self created construct of spiritual suffering.

[Nevuk]

i'd rather not turn this into a debate, but you should know that a very large chunk of christians believe hell isn't some sort of eternal burning torture chamber but rather a self created construct of spiritual suffering.
Yep, that's my interpretation of it as well actually. I think the view of hell as eternal separation from God makes the most sense, and this is the only way to be separate from him. If god exists, we're all slaves.

[open mind]

Yep, that's my interpretation of it as well actually. I think the view of hell as eternal separation from God makes the most sense, and this is the only way to be separate from him. If god exists, we're all slaves.

that's one way of looking at it.

[Nevuk]

that's one way of looking at it.
Yeah, I'm not really in a combative mood or anything lately, that's just what I believe. I dated a christian recently who was fully aware of my beliefs and we basically argued the entire time, about everything. Arguing about whether the moon is full or not is something which makes even me uncombative.

Deism is interesting, but it basically replaces the same structure with science at the head rather than god.

[open mind]

Yeah, I'm not really in a combative mood or anything lately, that's just what I believe. I dated a christian recently who was fully aware of my beliefs and we basically argued the entire time, about everything. Arguing about whether the moon is full or not is something which makes even me uncombative.

Deism is interesting, but it basically replaces the same structure with science at the head rather than god.

i'm not looking to debate this either (it never gets anywhere on this forum and even when it does somebody comes out of nowhere repeating arguments that have already been covered and it's right back to square one), which is why i just said that's one way of looking at it....instead of outright disagreeing.

[Nevuk]

i'm not looking to debate this either (it never gets anywhere on this forum and even when it does somebody comes out of nowhere repeating arguments that have already been covered and it's right back to square one), which is why i just said that's one way of looking at it....instead of outright disagreeing.
yeah, I've actually defined that argument more fully elsewhere at least 6-7x. Religious debates never get anywhere because they're about beliefs, and people are rarely capable of respecting others' thoughts, let alone beliefs.

[open mind]

yeah, I've actually defined that argument more fully elsewhere at least 6-7x. Religious debates never get anywhere because they're about beliefs, and people are rarely capable of respecting others' thoughts, let alone beliefs.

yeah, both sides of the debate can be pretty intolerable.....higher then mighty idiots lacking real theological understanding, and condescending pricks who think they know everything are seriously annoying.

....i'm such a hypocrite haha.

[SgtFumunda]

Rampant hedonism ftw

[ikikwe]

yeah, both sides of the debate can be pretty intolerable.....higher then mighty idiots lacking real theological understanding, and condescending pricks who think they know everything are seriously annoying.

....i'm such a hypocrite haha.

Agreed. I'm agnostic, but I always get lumped with the atheist's by those who profess their faith, and I get looked down on by the atheists for taking the pussy way out. It's bullshit. Like someone said before, I want to believe in God, but at this point, there's not enough evidence, and I don't want to hold on to something I know has a very good chance of not existing.

[Nevuk]

I decided to declare myself as a full atheist because I was tired of random people trying to convert me after they'd heard I was only an agnostic.

[writeacliche]

from my experience on this forum it's more non-conforming to profess a faith in god.
QFT

[phil19]

the jedi religion is real

www.jedichurch.org (http://www.jedichurch.org)

id be interested in how many people actually practiced the beliefs of the jedi, instead of merely stating it on the census

[Burning Star IV]

Agnostic. I don't believe in the church, but I can't deny that the universe just appeared out of nowhere, and there has to be some explanation for.

[immorehxcthanu]

I don't tell many people this but I am a born-again christian turned atheist. It wasn't like I woke up one day and was like, "hey, I don't believe anymore." It's something that gets stripped away after a while. I'm actually much happier now, I felt like I was living a lie going to church and bible studies. Unfortunately, I lost some friends in the process. If they were true christians they would have accepted me for whatever I believe. Oh well...don't really give a shit.

[sdbrown]

atheist but I was brought up Jewish and still abide by many of their moral tenets. I like going to services and synagogue sometimes too and plan to raise my kids Jewish. Purim and Simchat Torah parties are awesome.

[Broken Parachute]

I look at it like this: nobody has to believe what I believe and nobody should make me have to believe in what they believe. We all believe in various things and it's foolish to try and sway a person one way or another.

What I believe is what's good for me and that's all I care about.

[EasySkankin]

Why do people care so much about converting people? Do they think they'll get some spiritual reward?

If there is a god, he/she/it/thing must be deeply understanding, so it'll understand If I don't care whether it exists, because it doesn't matter, and if it does, fuck it I had a good time while i was here

[JBernal]

Okay, now that I have read through everyone's replies I would like to put another spin on this.
How many of you that said you were atheist, agnostic, (or Christian) are planning on seeing Bill Maher's new documentary Religulous?
I was hoping to see it sometime this week, but it is only in select theaters. Which means...in rural East Texas...it will never be close by. I am going to Dallas, and I plan on watching it when I am there. Share your opinions! Seen it? Wanna see it?

[Adeniz19]

id be interested in how many people actually practiced the beliefs of the jedi, instead of merely stating it on the census
http://images.wikia.com/starwars-exodus/images/5/58/Form1.jpg?

[saysmydoctor]

I do believe in the concept of a God, but to classify myself as one of a specific religion is impossible. I also believe in reincarnation and the concept of karma. I guess this would make me a Hinduist?

[JBernal]

I think the Hindu's probably have a firm belief in once particular high power...
Whereas you said "a God", not specifically...?
Idk...

[redalibi]

I'm Catholic so I believe, but that doesn't mean I don't ask questions and fully believe every rule like a sheep. Faith is a personal relationship and challenge. There is nothing that can't be proved or disproved so I hate it when I'm around people who argue than discuss these kind of issues. I think there's too much shit in this world that is coincidence for it to be all random.

[saysmydoctor]

I think the Hindu's probably have a firm belief in once particular high power...
Whereas you said "a God", not specifically...?
Idk...
This is where my confusion is, I have no problem with faith itself, I despise the concept of organized, manipulative faith. The Catholic Church is now the organization of good after its history? The Inquisition, using its armies to manipulate European affairs, etc. It doesn't make sense to me. At least, the Orthodoxy sect and the Patriarch stick to their symbolic leadership without being manipulative.

[JBernal]

I just hate the fact that the majority of the worlds wars have been fought on the grounds of religious differences. Is this really a necessary sacrifice? To kill someone because they believe in something different than you?
"Thou shall not have any God's before me." ? Wtf is that? This is taking away a person's ability to decide for themselves. It is taking away the very essence of what makes us human...

[saysmydoctor]

Yeah, exactly. I don't buy into the divine inspiration of the Bible and such. It was a human text, therefore, I'm not going to 'hell' because I disagree.

[x togepi x]

Oh, like the majority of atheists and agnostics and other non-conformists aren't pretentious twats.


christians are worthless.

see? I can make baseless generalizations too!

[Poe-tryGirl]

I'm a JW.

[JBernal]

Pretty much.
I could never wrap my head around how the Bible is held so highly regarded in religious faith, when just like all books...humans wrote every bit of it.
Its just a big book, filled with tons of stories that are being retold over and over again. Like all stories, they are either fiction or non-fiction. I guess that is where the human mind must make a decision whether or not to believe it is real, or take it as just another story.

[theguy77]

im religious in a Christian context but i dont view God as some sovereign king who rules us. I feel more like our consciences are the manifestation of God, and we dont need a list of written rules to tell us how to live our lives because we're born and raised with them intrinsically, and it's our choice whether to follow those basic natural guidelines or not. obviously i acknowledge evolution but i feel the starting point is created by God.

however i do not acknowledge the Bible. it is not the word of God, it is the word of God as interpreted by man, and obviously no one's interpretation of his messages is going to be correct. this also applies to the fact that there are many "sins" that i dont acknowledge as such. there are too many blatant fallacies and prejudices in the Bible to use it as a guide for understanding of the world and for morality, and the hypocrisy and inconsistency is ever-prevalent with every new version of what is supposedly the absolute truth. i also dont believe atheists go to hell, because i believe God created us with the ability to logically question anything and everything, and that kind of spite would not only be unjust but not God-like in general, i refuse to believe in a God who will prejudice himself against the way he created us. i prefer the forgiving, benign, happy God, not the "i'll cast you into eternal misery if you disobey me" God.

[theguy77]

but my reasons for being religious by concept is the reverse of why nihilists have their views. they might say because none of it can be proved. i say because the essential basics of a God havent been fully disproved for me, and since im comfortable believing in one i will continue to until im given conclusive evidence that effectively erases any possibility the concept, which i dont think is possible. but when something is disproven to me, like almost every "fact" in the Bible, i don't just ignorantly defend it.

[saysmydoctor]

christians are worthless.

see? I can make baseless generalizations too!
I was being sarcastic.

[x togepi x]

I was being sarcastic.

i was debating that you were but since i just woke up and i was like fuck it. haha

[saysmydoctor]

i was debating that you were but since i just woke up and i was like fuck it. haha
You should post more often, dude.

But yeah, I just was pointing the clear flaw in his logic.

[phil19]

http://images.wikia.com/starwars-exodus/images/5/58/Form1.jpg?

lol
everyone loves the younglings

[mattybobviously]

I'm an agnostic/atheist, I do not believe in a god but there is not enough finality in even the big bang theory to suggest complete understanding of our beginnings.

[GRIFFARD]

I'm an atheist due to thoughts that I've had all of my life, and after studying most major religions in addition to atheism and agnosticism, I would solidly say that I fit as an atheist. I just don't agree with other religions, and I don't believe in God or the legitimacy of most churches.

[samsara]

i was raised roman catholic, then was atheist, then was a catholic again

i got confirmed which wasnt my idea, i did it for my parents i didnt enjoy it,
it was just something i did to make them happy

i dont know what i am, because i believe in reincarnation and have a whole bunch
of other religions beliefs, that i also think is right

i tried reading the bible but it got too tiring reading the same thing over and over again

but i know there is a higher power or something out there

[JBernal]

but my reasons for being religious by concept is the reverse of why nihilists have their views. they might say because none of it can be proved. i say because the essential basics of a God havent been fully disproved for me, and since im comfortable believing in one i will continue to until im given conclusive evidence that effectively erases any possibility the concept, which i dont think is possible. but when something is disproven to me, like almost every "fact" in the Bible, i don't just ignorantly defend it.

right...which is in fact the very definition of faith...which I lack. Faith to me, is believing in something just because you truly want to believe it. Not because it has been proven...actually, the fact that it hasnt been proven, even further makes it faith.
I believe that everyone is diffferent in this, because I...lack that faith. I need proof that a god exists...and have never...ever heard of one, and I highly doubt there will ever be one because if God does exist, he would never present such proof. This would completely dimish faith, in it's essense.
Bottom line: Everyone approaches faith differently. I need facts before I can believe anything.

[_jonas]

I am an Agnostic/Atheist. I have never in my life believed in anything supernatural and have never seen anything to suggest any kind of Deity exists, that is, in addition to the obvious evidence against the supernatural, why I do not believe.

The reason I am agnostic is not because I am on the fence with regards to organised religion but because no theory in my opinion has currently explained why the big bang (if it happened) occured, or what came before it or how the universe came to be. Now it's clear God is not the answer to this but at the same time it's also clear that no scientific explanation really explains it at present, so I am agnostic as to why the universe exists. I think that is the only reasonable position, at the moment while it's obvious God (as in an omnipotent creature and all that jive) doesn't exist we don't know why the universe exists and imo no one with sense can suggest otherwise.
this.

[Poe-tryGirl]

i was raised roman catholic, then was atheist, then was a catholic again

i got confirmed which wasnt my idea, i did it for my parents i didnt enjoy it,
it was just something i did to make them happy

i dont know what i am, because i believe in reincarnation and have a whole bunch
of other religions beliefs, that i also think is right

i tried reading the bible but it got too tiring reading the same thing over and over again

but i know there is a higher power or something out there


One question: I don't get it when people say they were confirmed. What is it? What do you do? That's more than one question. lol.

[_jonas]

http://reparent.blog.uvm.edu/images/GothDance2.jpg

[samsara]

One question: I don't get it when people say they were confirmed. What is it? What do you do? That's more than one question. lol.

it just means that you confirm that you are part of the church

your the adult part of the church

you just go through rites of a sort and make a vow to the church

[lew_1987]

I believe what I believe. I don't care to put it in a bracket :shrug:

[jagermeister]

I personally am a nihilist...but I would like to maybe spark up a debate here between various religions.
Not here to diss on anyone's beliefs...because I fully respect all of them.
Just thought it would be interesting for everyone to share theirs and why they believe what they do.

Nihilism isn't a theological stance like atheism, agnosticism or theism is. It's a non-religious philosophy like communism, existentialism or objectivism.

Oh, and I'm an agnostic but there is one religion I personally think would be suit me if I come to terms with it fully.

[jagermeister]

I do believe in the concept of a God, but to classify myself as one of a specific religion is impossible. I also believe in reincarnation and the concept of karma. I guess this would make me a Hinduist?

lol @ the made up word "Hinduist"

You could even be a Sikh (not sure a turban would suit you), a Buddhist or a Jain (not sure walking around sweeping a broom in front of you would work for anyone).

And a lot of you are comparing your beliefs to that of the Bible and Christianity. Only something like 1/3 of the world are Christians so the Bible really isn't the be all end all to religious awakening.

[noideas]

I think everyone is agnostic, but some don't realize it.

[ambulance]

Nihilism isn't a theological stance like atheism, agnosticism or theism is. It's a non-religious philosophy like communism, existentialism or objectivism.

Oh, and I'm an agnostic but there is one religion I personally think would be suit me if I come to terms with it fully.

I don't think he was saying it was. There isn't really a 'theological' belief that he would fit into anyways, hence why he probably just clarified to give his stance on how he views religion and the belief that there is a higher being.

[fedhed7]

atheist but I was brought up Jewish and still abide by many of their moral tenets. I like going to services and synagogue sometimes too and plan to raise my kids Jewish. Purim and Simchat Torah parties are awesome.
This^

[saysmydoctor]

lol @ the made up word "Hinduist"

You could even be a Sikh (not sure a turban would suit you), a Buddhist or a Jain (not sure walking around sweeping a broom in front of you would work for anyone).

And a lot of you are comparing your beliefs to that of the Bible and Christianity. Only something like 1/3 of the world are Christians so the Bible really isn't the be all end all to religious awakening.
Didn't know the term. A Hindu? Whatever.

Personally don't feel like joining into a faith that utilizes a sort of caste system. :shrug: I'm sure this is a generalization and totally untrue, so someone learn me something.

[Chris Fallon]

Ben's answer pretty much sums up my belief system -- I've always been able to question religion and it scares me when people can't question their beliefs. You have to question your own beliefs in order to make sure you believe them -- I find that to be a crucial part of finding out what you feel is right for you.

I went to church, read the Bible, have listened to my religious friends/family ... none of it sounds concrete and I understand/respect the idea and nature of faith in one's life, but I don't feel like pinning myself into a religion should determine who I am. I make my beliefs, they don't make me -- it's not that I don't believe the possibility of a higher being, however, I'm curious as to why people seem to think they are right and know all when it comes to their particular belief system.

[Dizzy4rmReentry]

I'm an atheist, but I can't begin to understand when atheists get together to discuss their lack of beliefs, or whatever. A religion (in the loosest sense of the word) of no religion?

[pilot_light_out]

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/angiealan123/i-am-a-banana.gif

i bow to the banana

[sdbrown]

I'm an atheist, but I can't begin to understand when atheists get together to discuss their lack of beliefs, or whatever. A religion (in the loosest sense of the word) of no religion?
ditto. There's an athiest club here and I passed them handing out fliers for a meeting, I wanted to ask them if they just met once a week to bitch about christianity because I don't see what else they could discuss that they'd need a special club for.

[Iwudstilldie4u]

I call myself an agnostic theist because I live my life as tough there were a non-denominational god but at the same time I can never prove that god exists or dosn't exist.

[scmaley]

ditto. There's an athiest club here and I passed them handing out fliers for a meeting, I wanted to ask them if they just met once a week to bitch about christianity because I don't see what else they could discuss that they'd need a special club for.

That's a really good point. I would have wondered the same thing if I'd seen that at my school.

[Dizzy4rmReentry]

ditto. There's an athiest club here and I passed them handing out fliers for a meeting, I wanted to ask them if they just met once a week to bitch about christianity because I don't see what else they could discuss that they'd need a special club for.

and there's http://www.atheists.org/

[Nevuk]

If they are anything like every club at my Uni they just get wasted together every week.
I always wondered how the real estate club got members...

[open mind]

Ben's answer pretty much sums up my belief system -- I've always been able to question religion and it scares me when people can't question their beliefs. You have to question your own beliefs in order to make sure you believe them -- I find that to be a crucial part of finding out what you feel is right for you.

I went to church, read the Bible, have listened to my religious friends/family ... none of it sounds concrete and I understand/respect the idea and nature of faith in one's life, but I don't feel like pinning myself into a religion should determine who I am. I make my beliefs, they don't make me -- it's not that I don't believe the possibility of a higher being, however, I'm curious as to why people seem to think they are right and know all when it comes to their particular belief system.

i don't think having faith (or lacking faith) determines who you are nearly as much as your actions do.

[Chris Fallon]

i don't think having faith (or lacking faith) determines who you are nearly as much as your actions do.
Yes, I can agree with you on that. However, again, it also depends who said person is because to those without faith, it's not really a concern. At least, it isn't for me ... I simply live my life, consequences for my mistakes are my own doing.

If that makes sense... it's late and I'm tired. I'm not even sure if I have the ability to think about this at 3am haha

[theguy77]

Ben's answer pretty much sums up my belief system -- I've always been able to question religion and it scares me when people can't question their beliefs. You have to question your own beliefs in order to make sure you believe them -- I find that to be a crucial part of finding out what you feel is right for you.

I went to church, read the Bible, have listened to my religious friends/family ... none of it sounds concrete and I understand/respect the idea and nature of faith in one's life, but I don't feel like pinning myself into a religion should determine who I am. I make my beliefs, they don't make me -- it's not that I don't believe the possibility of a higher being, however, I'm curious as to why people seem to think they are right and know all when it comes to their particular belief system.

this is the best answer ive seen yet in this thread. good call, cfal.

[SomedayTheFire]

http://firstchurchofatheism.com/ :shrug: how is there a church of atheists?

[jagermeister]

http://firstchurchofatheism.com/ :shrug: how is there a church of atheists?

It's probably satire, or a bunch of morons who don't know what they're talking about.

Atheism isn't a religion and a Church of Atheism would imply it has become one.

Can you religion be not not to believe in God or a divine being? No. Any religion needs a divine being to believe in for it to actually be considered a legitimate religion rather than a bunch of people making it up as they go along.

[.invisible ink.]

atheist here, but i was raised Unitarian Universalist (by atheist/agnostic parents), which pretty much allows you to believe whatever you want as long as you respect others and the world around us (here's their principles: http://www.uua.org/visitors/6798.shtml).

the whole God concept doesn't sit right with me and I doubt I will ever become a religious person in my lifetime.

[jagermeister]

atheist here, but i was raised Unitarian Universalist (by atheist/agnostic parents), which pretty much allows you to believe whatever you want as long as you respect others and the world around us (here's their principles: http://www.uua.org/visitors/6798.shtml).

the whole God concept doesn't sit right with me and I doubt I will ever become a religious person in my lifetime.

I was always under the impression that Unitarians reject the concept of the Holy Trinity and believe God to be ONE rather than the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Learn something new everyday.

[jagermeister]

It needs supernatural belief, organisation and dogma. Even if these guys provide organisaton they lack the other two and perhaps 0.0001% of atheists are actually in any way involved with any atheist organisation.

So atheism is still not a religion in any way.

Exactly.

[.invisible ink.]

I was always under the impression that Unitarians reject the concept of the Holy Trinity and believe God to be ONE rather than the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Learn something new everyday.

there are Christian Unitarians, just as there are atheist and Jewish Unitarians. There's no official religious creed involved in Unitarianism. What I have found interesting though is how services differ so greatly from congregation to congregation. The one I grew up with in Raleigh, NC was super duper liberal and never ever mentioned God, but I went to a service at the Unitarian church in Dallas once and I felt like I was sitting in on a Christian sermon, it was so much more structured and felt uptight and staid. I didn't like it at all.

fun fact - i used to be the youth group leader for a while at the one in Raleigh. Every kid in there (this was just high school kids) was some sort of counter-culture type (punk, skater, hippie, indie, raver). Our lock-ins were the shit.

[3eb23]

I have been researching religion among other things for quite awhile now and what i am leaning most towards is the idea that religions such as christianity, judaism, mormonism, buddhism, islam, etc. were invented by the elite to divide and thus control the masses. the creation of these religions that were used for control can all be traced back to Babylon.

It appears to be all the same made up stories told to keep the people in line and in the dark while the people with the knowledge carry out their agenda.

I like what David Icke says about his view on religion in his book Children of the Matrix. He says this:

"My philosophy on this is simple: if you can put a name to what you believe, you have built a wall around your mind. Once you can give it a name you are closing the door on infinity where everything just is and we all just are. There are no names for infinite knowledge."
- David Icke

[Skadrist]

Is that Audrey Tautou in your avatar lunch?

Doesn't that David Icke guy believe lizard men run the world's government?

[Poe-tryGirl]

it just means that you confirm that you are part of the church

your the adult part of the church

you just go through rites of a sort and make a vow to the church

Thanks for explaining.

[jagermeister]

I have been researching religion among other things for quite awhile now and what i am leaning most towards is the idea that religions such as christianity, judaism, mormonism, buddhism, islam, etc. were invented by the elite to divide and thus control the masses. the creation of these religions that were used for control can all be traced back to Babylon.

It appears to be all the same made up stories told to keep the people in line and in the dark while the people with the knowledge carry out their agenda.

I like what David Icke says about his view on religion in his book Children of the Matrix. He says this:

"My philosophy on this is simple: if you can put a name to what you believe, you have built a wall around your mind. Once you can give it a name you are closing the door on infinity where everything just is and we all just are. There are no names for infinite knowledge."
- David Icke


Religions weren't created by the elite. Thats just immature to think that.

"Believe nothing. No matter where you read it or who has said it. Not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."
- Buddha

[3eb23]

Religions weren't created by the elite. Thats just immature to think that.

"Believe nothing. No matter where you read it or who has said it. Not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."
- Buddha


maybe i didn't communicate clearly what i wanted to say. i was saying that religions used for control were created by the elite/specific bloodlines. i realize religion goes further back than babylon and it has always been a part of peoples' lives and society in general.i was specifically saying that when religion was starting to be used for mass control and manipulation- this was spawned by the elite and can be traced back to babylon. religions such as Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc. were made up stories used by the elite to suppress and control the people. i was not saying religion in a general sense was completely made up by people in power. i think its a natural thing for people to believe in something.

[3eb23]

Is that Audrey Tautou in your avatar lunch?

Doesn't that David Icke guy believe lizard men run the world's government?

haha yes, yes he does

[jagermeister]

maybe i didn't communicate clearly what i wanted to say. i was saying that religions used for control were created by the elite/specific bloodlines. i realize religion goes further back than babylon and it has always been a part of peoples' lives and society in general.i was specifically saying that when religion was starting to be used for mass control and manipulation- this was spawned by the elite and can be traced back to babylon. religions such as Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc. were made up stories used by the elite to suppress and control the people. i was not saying religion in a general sense was completely made up by people in power. i think its a natural thing for people to believe in something.

Sources that say "religions used for control" (a bogus statement) were created by the elite/soecific bloodlines?

Founders of Abrahamic religions...
Judaism: Abraham lived a poor life in the desert...did not descent from the elite/upper class
Christainity: Jesus, a poor carptenter, lived in the desert...did not descend from elite/upper class
Islam: Mohammed lived a poor life in the desert...did not descent from elite/upper class

These people were not the elite of their day, in fact they were the exact opposite.

[3eb23]

Sources that say "religions used for control" (a bogus statement) were created by the elite/soecific bloodlines?

Founders of Abrahamic religions...
Judaism: Abraham lived a poor life in the desert...did not descent from the elite/upper class
Christainity: Jesus, a poor carptenter, lived in the desert...did not descend from elite/upper class
Islam: Mohammed lived a poor life in the desert...did not descent from elite/upper class

These people were not the elite of their day, in fact they were the exact opposite.

these people who you are saying "founded" these religions were manufactured.

[jagermeister]

these people who you are saying "founded" these religions were manufactured.

LOL.

Pick up a history book, dude. These people really existed. There is no debate to that. Their roles in history are debatable, but their existence is absolutely certain.

Again I ask...Are you able to provide sources for your ignorant statement you previously stated or no?

[berskyjr]

if Lot was such a righteous man, that god saved him from destruction, why did he have sex with his daughters? the bible is such bullshit, this is just 1 example.

[jagermeister]

if Lot was such a righteous man, that god saved him from destruction, why did he have sex with his daughters? the bible is such bullshit, this is just 1 example.

That is what you base your opinion of the Bible on?

[berskyjr]

That is what you base your opinion of the Bible on?
i said that 's one example.

[jagermeister]

i said that 's one example.

Ok well in that case...Lot was a human...humans make mistakes.

[berskyjr]

Ok well in that case...Lot was a human...humans make mistakes.
ya. like writing the bible?

[3eb23]

LOL.

Pick up a history book, dude. These people really existed. There is no debate to that. Their roles in history are debatable, but their existence is absolutely certain.

Again I ask...Are you able to provide sources for you ignorant statement you previously stated or no?

try to follow me here...history book. let's think about this. a history book could have had the accounts that these people existed. i'm not fighting you on that. but...these are stories. stories that could have well been instilled in people although they are not actual fact. these stories were usually symbolic in nature but were told to be taken literally. these people could very well have not existed. there is definitely a debate on that. take Jesus for example. what historian besides Josephus (who most likely was a puppet of the priesthood to make the church look correct on its teachings) has spoken of Jesus and his miraculous works and life? i mean shouldn't someone as important as the Son of God have had countless historians writing about all the amazing things he did? shoot he should have been mentioned in texts throughout history for that performance. but is he? no. shoot his entire story is an adaptation of ancient myth. the story of a son born of a virgin to become a savior to the people by dying for them is scattered throughout history, many times before the supposed Jesus existed. and all these stories are symbolism, not actual fact.

that very quote you said earlier that came from Buddha is actually very important to what i'm saying here. you trust "history" books and take them as fact, whereas you have no idea if that was in fact a made up story or had some kind of agenda behind it. i'm the same way. i shouldn't trust everything i read. but on an intellectual level the stuff i'm saying just makes more since to me. i respect your opinions and I hope we can both acquire more knowledge about all of this because truth be told, non of us know much in the grand scheme of things.

[3eb23]

There's nothing wrong with that quote but David Icke as a guy is insane. I actually have that book and it's ironic he'd whinge about a lack of evidence for religion considering what he does believe.

haha dude icke is crazy for sure. but i find him interesting because at the same time, a lot of stuff he says can be backed up. things like the whole reptilian thing is as far out as can be and obviously i have seen no legitimate backing for, but a lot of what he believes about world government and a good amount of his religion stances (not all) i have found to be respectful (although they initially seemed crazy) stances that turn out to have quite a bit of supporting views.

[jagermeister]

ya. like writing the bible?

Again, to debate religion one must have maturity and knowledge of the subject which it is clear you do not posses.

[jagermeister]

try to follow me here...history book. let's think about this. a history book could have had the accounts that these people existed. i'm not fighting you on that. but...these are stories. stories that could have well been instilled in people although they are not actual fact. these stories were usually symbolic in nature but were told to be taken literally. these people could very well have not existed. there is definitely a debate on that. take Jesus for example. what historian besides Josephus (who most likely was a puppet of the priesthood to make the church look correct on its teachings) has spoken of Jesus and his miraculous works and life? i mean shouldn't someone as important as the Son of God have had countless historians writing about all the amazing things he did? shoot he should have been mentioned in texts throughout history for that performance. but is he? no. shoot his entire story is an adaptation of ancient myth. the story of a son born of a virgin to become a savior to the people by dying for them is scattered throughout history, many times before the supposed Jesus existed. and all these stories are symbolism, not actual fact.

that very quote you said earlier that came from Buddha is actually very important to what i'm saying here. you trust "history" books and take them as fact, whereas you have no idea if that was in fact a made up story or had some kind of agenda behind it. i'm the same way. i shouldn't trust everything i read. but on an intellectual level the stuff i'm saying just makes more since to me. i respect your opinions and I hope we can both acquire more knowledge about all of this because truth be told, non of us know much in the grand scheme of things.

Yeah, buddy. We've all seen Zeitgeist at least once. You're gonna need to have a little more substance than that if you want to be taken seriously.

lolz.

[jagermeister]

David Icke is a write off based solely on the fact that he truly believes reptilian humanoids control the world.

What a joke.

[berskyjr]

Again, to debate religion one must have maturity and knowledge of the subject which it is clear you do not posses.
either way we all die.

[3eb23]

Yeah, buddy. We've all seen Zeitgeist at least once. You're gonna need to have a little more substance than that if you want to be taken seriously.

lolz.

yeah cool man considering i just saw zeitgeist for the first time about 2 weeks ago. all that shit about religion was stuff i had already read. nothing new there.

i view this kind of topic as something that should be open for interpretation in many aspects. it should be examined and we should challenge our own beliefs and what we have been taught. and just to write off someone's points cause you saw it in a movie once is not what we should be doing. this does not open us up to possibility, it only closes doors.

[berskyjr]

yeah cool man considering i just saw zeitgeist for the first time about 2 weeks ago. all that shit about religion was stuff i had already read. nothing new there.

i view this kind of topic as something that should be open for interpretation in many aspects. it should be examined and we should challenge our own beliefs and what we have been taught. and just to write off someone's points cause you saw it in a movie once is not what we should be doing. this does not open us up to possibility, it only closes doors.
religion = opinion no one really knows, and we never will.

[jagermeister]

religion = opinion no one really knows, and we never will.

I would never make such universal statements.

Religion isn't opinion as there is no definitive proof for or against it.

[jagermeister]

You mean religion (or rather why the universe is as it is) is opinion? An opinion can be completely baseless you know.

Thats true, but to form an opinion based on nothing is just ignorant IMO.

[EasySkankin]

for everyone that kept asking for "sources"... Can anyone give solid proof for the lives of religious prophets, such as jesus, mohamet, moses, etc. from sources other than religious texts?

[theguy77]

You just called every religious person ever ignorant lol.

i think what hes trying to say is that belief is differnet from opinion, because opinions involve an analysis of objectivities whereas belief is a totally intrinsic hunch

[jagermeister]

You just called every religious person ever ignorant lol.

I believe religion is ignorant, though.

With that being said, I do believe in God.

[nkalldayyy]

i'm catholic by birth, but i believe what i believe regardless of what i was baptized as.

i love God, he's the only one who can tell me what to do, no priest or pope has a right to speak for him, in my eyes. they're just as human as i am.

[jagermeister]

i'm catholic by birth, but i believe what i believe regardless of what i was baptized as.

i love God, he's the only one who can tell me what to do, no priest or pope has a right to speak for him, in my eyes. they're just as human as i am.

Then you don't really believe in the Catholic Church...you can't make up your own set of rules for something and call yourself a member of it.

[nkalldayyy]

Then you don't really believe in the Catholic Church...you can't make up your own set of rules for something and call yourself a member of it.
no i believe in the Catholic Church. sure, there's a lot about it that i don't agree with, like how they're against gay marriage but mainly i just feel like i have more of a connection with God than i do with the Church.
it's not that i make up my own rules, i just look at them differently.

[jagermeister]

no i believe in the Catholic Church. sure, there's a lot about it that i don't agree with, like how they're against gay marriage but mainly i just feel like i have more of a connection with God than i do with the Church.
it's not that i make up my own rules, i just look at them differently.

The thing about the Catholic Church is the rules aren't put in place to be looked at differently by individual people. They're very strict and mandated heavily and rely on tradition rather than interpretation.

[nkalldayyy]

The thing about the Catholic Church is the rules aren't put in place to be looked at differently by individual people. They're very strict and mandated heavily and rely on tradition rather than interpretation.
that's true, but i can't help how i feel and i will ALWAYS be Catholic. i'm not doing anything wrong so, i don't see what the problem would be. i live by the commandments, and i'm a good person... and to me, that's what being Catholic means.

[Adeniz19]

that's true, but i can't help how i feel and i will ALWAYS be Catholic. i'm not doing anything wrong so, i don't see what the problem would be. i live by the commandments, and i'm a good person... and to me, that's what being Catholic means.i'm just like you and was born and raised catholic, but i wouldn't consider myself a catholic even tho i still have a firm belief in god. the catholic church might of helped me shape my beliefs, but i just don't agree with so many of their traditions/practices to consider myself part of their church.

[nkalldayyy]

i'm just like you and was born and raised catholic, but i wouldn't consider myself a catholic even tho i still have a firm belief in god. the catholic church might of helped me shape my beliefs, but i just don't agree with so many of their traditions/practices to consider myself part of their church.
exactly! i do consider myself Catholic, but i agree, i don't believe in so much of what they feed out. i believe in God, and that's all i need. i still believe in tradition and such and i go to confession, but God didn't create all of the beliefs that the church stands by, especially not politically.
it's hard to have faith in the world we live in as it is. i'm trying my hardest to maintain a spiritual connection with God, let alone with an institution that contradicts so much of what i believe in.

[samsara]

meh i was raised catholic but the churches here dont work for me they dont make me feel as spiritual as i should be

[phil19]

i personally am not religious at all.
i think that christianity has a lot of good morals and values which people should live by but i think that many of its beliefs are outdated and contradictory. i particularly think this applies to catholicism. it seems that many would agree. its good to see that people raised in the church are not blinded by the faith but rather guided by their own beliefs

[Olympia]

If you want a laugh:

http://www.conservapedia.com/Atheist

[amy rebekah]

I do very much believe in God, though I am rather disaffected with the modern-day church at large.
I would call myself a Christian, but not an evangelical. [Atleast not in the Western-church, Republican, Protest-Gay-Marriage, Bible being the absolute-word-of-God sense]
I have some morals that I try to live by, but I don't think certain things are wrong because the Bible says they are. I think there's a reason beyond that, and I look for it in my life. I think that even if I knew that there was no God, I would still try to uphold a standard of morality.

I don't claim to have "proof" of there being a God, but the closest thing to what I do have as evidence is that there is is love. [I understand that I'm probably going to be slammed for this one if nothing else.] As cliche as it sounds I really do still believe in loving other people, unconditionally, no matter what they believe in or who they are or how much they hate me.

God is love. And I can't explain why I believe that so strongly, but I do. My faith to me is going back to the commandments of Jesus, the ones overlooked but essential.."loving your enemies" , "blessed are the peacemakers.." , "go the extra mile for those who do bad to you.." ..

I think that church is supposed to be true community to the point of giving everything of myself and my possessions for other people if need be. And I know that's definately not the church at large that most of us have ever seen, but I'm still trying to believe some good. I'm still trying to believe that something can change.

[jagermeister]

exactly! i do consider myself Catholic, but i agree, i don't believe in so much of what they feed out. i believe in God, and that's all i need. i still believe in tradition and such and i go to confession, but God didn't create all of the beliefs that the church stands by, especially not politically.
it's hard to have faith in the world we live in as it is. i'm trying my hardest to maintain a spiritual connection with God, let alone with an institution that contradicts so much of what i believe in.

Why associate yourself or claim to believe in something that you "don't believe in so much of what they feed out"?

Thats hypocritical to the nth degree.

[nkalldayyy]

Why associate yourself or claim to believe in something that you "don't believe in so much of what they feed out"?

Thats hypocritical to the nth degree.
because i'm Catholic, I believe in God, Jesus, and the Bible. I got to Church, I pray every night, i'm pro-life and i'm against the war. i'm happy to be a Catholic but that doesn't mean i'm not allowed to have a few problems with the way they run things.

if you think its so easy to be faithful then thats fine. but for me, its a little difficult, especially when i'm probably the only person not recieving social security in my church. so if you have perfect faith, then good for you, but it's not that easy for everyone, especially when some of their polocies are a little old fashioned.

your're seriously acting like i don't believe in Jesus Christ. i know people cliam to be Catholic but don't even believe in God!

There's nothing wrong with my faith, and you're no one to question it. Just like Jesus said "let the one without sin cast the first stone." so i'm guessing that's you?

[popdisaster00]

Too late for me to enter and claim atheism?

[Poe-tryGirl]

Nope

[adelphi_rocks]

Then you don't really believe in the Catholic Church...you can't make up your own set of rules for something and call yourself a member of it.
Isn't that what the majority of Christians do? Nobody actually follows all of the rules prescribed in Leviticus -- at least, I hope not. Read Matthew 5:18-19; it states something to the effect of "those that don't explicitly follow the rules laid out by the old testament are 'least in the kingdom of heaven' and those who aren't as righteous as the scribes will burn in hell for eternity." Modern Christianity isn't true Christianity because it lacks stringent adherence to every command within the bible, according to the bible -- or at least some of it. Who knows for sure considering all of the contradictions in the book. Of what practical use are the 'morals' presented in the bible in regard to a modern society? The ten commandments really only have 2 good rules; don't steal and don't kill, and I doubt that any reasonable society wouldn't come up with that on their own. Religion may have had a place in the past, but it no longer does much more than hinder social progress. Everyone is entitled to believe what they want, but as Sam Harris put it, "Clearly, it is time we learned to meet our emotional needs without embracing the preposterous."

[nkalldayyy]

Isn't that what the majority of Christians do? Nobody actually follows all of the rules prescribed in Leviticus -- at least, I hope not. Read Matthew 5:18-19; it states something to the effect of "those that don't explicitly follow the rules laid out by the old testament are 'least in the kingdom of heaven' and those who aren't as righteous as the scribes will burn in hell for eternity." Modern Christianity isn't true Christianity because it lacks stringent adherence to every command within the bible, according to the bible -- or at least some of it. Who knows for sure considering all of the contradictions in the book. Of what practical use are the 'morals' presented in the bible in regard to a modern society? The ten commandments really only have 2 good rules; don't steal and don't kill, and I doubt that any reasonable society wouldn't come up with that on their own. Religion may have had a place in the past, but it no longer does much more than hinder social progress. Everyone is entitled to believe what they want, but as Sam Harris put it, "Clearly, it is time we learned to meet our emotional needs without embracing the preposterous."
well put, i agree.

[Post-me]

I'm an atheist and I think the main problem with religion is the institution in itself. Having faith in a deity(even if I'm not) is not wrong in my opinion, I respect Deist people. But churches, holy texts, pastors etc... I thinks they're not right.
Religion must be a personnal thing theses beliefs should not influence society. Extreme laicism ftw is my philosophy.

[Tyler Dumont]

I'm an atheist.

After learning so much in Anthropology, Sociology, Biology, and Astronomy I cannot, in any logical way, find a reason to believe in a god.

I know why we as a people have religion, but the evidence against it is just too much.

[BJW7191]

I'm an atheist with regards as to Christianity. If their God is real, I'd rather burn in his hell. Haven't studied the other religions enough to know.


hell according to my 11 religion teachers ive had over the years is "any time, place, event where god is not present; being without god for a period of time"


i smell bull crap but its better than having the "fiery pits of eternal damnation"

[Nevuk]

hell according to my 11 religion teachers ive had over the years is "any time, place, event where god is not present; being without god for a period of time"


i smell bull crap but its better than having the "fiery pits of eternal damnation"
Tis the view I ascribe to. There is freedom in hell, but none in heaven.

[x togepi x]

hell according to my 11 religion teachers ive had over the years is "any time, place, event where god is not present; being without god for a period of time"


i smell bull crap but its better than having the "fiery pits of eternal damnation"

that was the original conception of hell, but the Church realized it wasn't scary enough to get people to abide by Christian ethics.

[memento_mori]

I am an Agnostic/Atheist. I have never in my life believed in anything supernatural and have never seen anything to suggest any kind of Deity exists, that is, in addition to the obvious evidence against the supernatural, why I do not believe.

The reason I am agnostic is not because I am on the fence with regards to organised religion but because no theory in my opinion has currently explained why the big bang (if it happened) occured, or what came before it or how the universe came to be. Now it's clear God is not the answer to this but at the same time it's also clear that no scientific explanation really explains it at present, so I am agnostic as to why the universe exists. I think that is the only reasonable position, at the moment while it's obvious God (as in an omnipotent creature and all that jive) doesn't exist we don't know why the universe exists and imo no one with sense can suggest otherwise.

What option are we left with besides something creating the universe? There's no other alternative in the matter. Just to clear things up, I'm a deist, and am not religious in any way shape or form, but I find apparent evidence of creation in anything and everything in nature.

[BJW7191]

that was the original conception of hell, but the Church realized it wasn't scary enough to get people to abide by Christian ethics.


i dont know which view you hold, but are you saying that the church basically made up hell to scare people into following their rules?

[Burn That Shit]

i dont know which view you hold, but are you saying that the church basically made up hell to scare people into following their rules?

I always thought that religion as a whole was made up to scare people into following their rules.

[Nevuk]

Religion tends to fulfill a communal experience, and possibly something else. The Oceanic feeling?

[boykosaurus]

I'm reading the God Delusion. Although I don't like Dawkins' attitude, he brings up many good points. While I always question my belief in God, and Dawkins is presenting good ways to question, I'm still inclined to think that some supreme being exists. I don't think I'd call it an Abrahamic God, but its certainly something.

[BJW7191]

I always thought that religion as a whole was made up to scare people into following their rules.


i feel the same way

[_jonas]

It took some time to stray from the pretty little hope that some divine force is keeping everything on the up.

Then, the more I got involved in science, the less I was able to tolerate such a lazy response to our greatest mysteries.
Life is so beautiful. Like tiny wheels, these particles moving, exploding, regenerating.
The randomness of it all, tamed by laws. It's all so beautiful.

Screw god and screw the neglect.

[paper halo]

I'm reading the God Delusion. Although I don't like Dawkins' attitude, he brings up many good points. While I always question my belief in God, and Dawkins is presenting good ways to question, I'm still inclined to think that some supreme being exists. I don't think I'd call it an Abrahamic God, but its certainly something.

I found 'God is Not Great' by Christopher Hitchens to be slightly better.

[bssnplayer]

Any fellow Pastafarians? I'm actually a straight up atheist, but lately i've had an obsession with Pastafarianism.

[boykosaurus]

I found 'God is Not Great' by Christopher Hitchens to be slightly better.

I saw a video interview with him, and he did seem to be less "confrontational", if hat is the right word.

[npmshah]

Any fellow Pastafarians? I'm actually a straight up atheist, but lately i've had an obsession with Pastafarianism.
my best friends are pastafarians...
and until now i thought it was something they made up...
thanks for enlgihtening me :-D

[npmshah]

I'm reading the God Delusion. Although I don't like Dawkins' attitude, he brings up many good points. While I always question my belief in God, and Dawkins is presenting good ways to question, I'm still inclined to think that some supreme being exists. I don't think I'd call it an Abrahamic God, but its certainly something.
i agree
i personally am a theistic existentialist
which means i beleive in some sort of divine power but ppower doesnt rlly care about us and doesnt like to interfere
however, i generally take it a bit further by making it several divine beings and naming them after hindu gods (because i was raised hindu)

[J.C.]

I'm an aggie.

I don't like the term 'non-conformist' because it makes it sound like you're opposing the idea of organized religion just for the fuck of it.

[GuitarR0cker1]

I am kind of in between being a Deist and an Agnostic. I still believe somewhat in many Christian values and traditions though.

[J.C.]

Any fellow Pastafarians? I'm actually a straight up atheist, but lately i've had an obsession with Pastafarianism.

You've been touched by his noodly appendage?

[samsara]

I also think that Deism is also my strongest belief.

[Bambi Turburble]

Religion has its good and bad quirks. Morality and a healthy faith? Good. Supah-destructive wars over 'omnipotent creatures' and social stigma? Not so good.

[iwasahero]

"About belief or lack of belief in an afterlife: Some of you may know that I am neither Christian nor Jewish nor Buddhist, nor a conventionally religious person of any sort. I am a humanist, which mean, in part, that I have tried to behave decently without any expectation of rewards or punishments after I'm dead."

http://www.creativesynthesis.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/11vonnegut-600.jpg

[Nevuk]

...that's not really what humanism means, though.

[iwasahero]

...that's not really what humanism means, though.
Can you point me in the direction of some stuff about what it really is then, because I've been reading a lot of Vonnegut lately and it has definitely peaked my interest and I want to find out more.

[Nevuk]

Humanism is originally defined by Feuerbach, who claimed that judeo-christianity took all the good aspects of humanity away and embodied them in "God", making God an enemy from whom we had to reclaim our good parts, and once we realized this it becomes clear that humans are inherently good, not evil, and that all our positive aspects must be reclaimed from this "God".

Edit : this is the original definition it might've changed a bit, I know secular humanism is definitely different

[iwasahero]

Humanism is originally defined by Feuerbach, who claimed that judeo-christianity took all the good aspects of humanity away and embodied them in "God", making God an enemy from whom we had to reclaim our good parts, and once we realized this it becomes clear that humans are inherently good, not evil, and that all our positive aspects must be reclaimed from this "God".

Edit : this is the original definition it might've changed a bit, I know secular humanism is definitely different
I think that definition is outdated, or could be referring to Renaissance humanism.

This is the AHA's defintion which I think is more accurate to current humanistic beliefs.

Humanism is a democratic and ethical life stance, which affirms that human beings have the right and responsibility to give meaning and shape to their own lives. It stands for the building of a more humane society through an ethic based on human and other natural values in the spirit of reason and free inquiry through human capabilities. It is not theistic, and it does not accept supernatural views of reality.

[Nevuk]

I think that definition is outdated, or could be referring to Renaissance humanism.

Vonnegut was the president of the American Humanist Association and I know he would not accept that definition.

This is the AHA's defintion which I think is more accurate to current humanistic beliefs.

Humanism is a democratic and ethical life stance, which affirms that human beings have the right and responsibility to give meaning and shape to their own lives. It stands for the building of a more humane society through an ethic based on human and other natural values in the spirit of reason and free inquiry through human capabilities. It is not theistic, and it does not accept supernatural views of reality.
That actually doesn't disagree with Feuerbachian Humanism. It's like Nietzsche saying God is dead - he didn't mean that the physical God ever exited.

[a speedo model]

Why do people care so much about converting people? Do they think they'll get some spiritual reward?
While people, sadly, do approach it with this sort of mindsight, I would say most don't but rather look at it in the same way as someone yelling "Fire!" or "The ship is sinking!".

I am Christian, take it how you wish.

[open mind]

knowing nothing about humanism talk of it just reminds me of animal farm's animalism....4 legs good, 2 legs bad.

[Zieb]

I'm Agnostic. As stated by others mainly just because of the Big Bang.

I also do 'like' to believe that IF there is a god(s) out there that it is not any of the organized religious ones. I almost believe that said god would probably be more apt to accept (into it's version of heaven) agnostic people over religious people because of their unselfish ways in not joining a religion that has no factual evidence only so that they may be saved. I guess if I was a god I would understand peoples confusion and reward those that did not feed into lies without fully investigating them. At which point you would learn it is all false hopes and the only reason you would still practice it is because it makes you feel good inside when you go to sleep at night.

[deFobbed14yrs]

unless u have completly read the bible u have no authority to speak for it. just b/c u've read portions and think u can dis or praise god ur wrong. fuly understand EVERY aspect b4 u dis others. ok.

hinduchick out

[IAmNietzche]

I'm not an atheist but atheists and agnostics need to read Why I Am Not a Christian by Bertrand Russell or risk sounding like an idiot by stating, "I'm agnostic because of the Big Bang."

[IAmNietzche]

unless u have completly read the bible u have no authority to speak for it. just b/c u've read portions and think u can dis or praise god ur wrong. fuly understand EVERY aspect b4 u dis others. ok.

hinduchick out
One of the most concise and persuasive arguments I've ever heard for the belief that there is no God.

[Zieb]

I'm not an atheist but atheists and agnostics need to read Why I Am Not a Christian by Bertrand Russell or risk sounding like an idiot by stating, "I'm agnostic because of the Big Bang."

You care to simply just state the main point why we sound like idiots? I've not read one thing in all the books I've read that would make me believe that stating that makes me sound like an idiot.

[Zieb]

I'll answer my own question.

I assume you are referring to the first cause argument. I have already heard of this argument many times and I am not naive enough to have not considered. No matter what you think or say, the only idea that makes sense is that there must have been something that came from nothing for this universe to exist. I do not believe the universe has always, 'just been'. I also do not believe from what science has shown us, that we can have something come from nothing in the physical world. Therefor the only acceptable argument for a first cause is something above the laws of the universe. That would then have to be something divine, something that does not follow the laws of our universe.

So to me it is perfectly acceptable to say, "I am Agnostic because science has yet to come up with a theory as to what sparked The Big Bang."

So does that statement still make me an idiot?

[loj]

it seems to me that the historical evidence backs up Jesus. counter arguments, on the whole, seem to fall short. The main one 'intellectual non-believers' run with is the "myth" theory, and it's been argued against and for over and over. ultimately it comes to down to analyzing the historical data and making a decision of faith to see if it's all real. i've come to find it is.

if someone is actually interested in talking about this, feel free to PM me. i'd love to talk about it, but these boards are never a peaceful place for religious discussion.

or if you need a bone to chew on, check out tektonics.org


peace.
greg

[J.C.]

Historical evidence backs up what? His existence?

[jagermeister]

unless u have completly read the bible u have no authority to speak for it. just b/c u've read portions and think u can dis or praise god ur wrong. fuly understand EVERY aspect b4 u dis others. ok.

hinduchick out

For someone who types and ends up sounding like an idiot, I don't think you're in any place to question people's intelligence on any subject matters.

[Charles777]

I'm an atheist. I basically believe there is no god,
Because there is no proof, or reason to believe.

I could go out right now and have hot sex with some barn animals right now, or maybe rob some banks, kill some people, and nothing would happen.

Not that I would want to do any of that.
O_o

[sdbrown]

I'm an atheist. I basically believe there is no god,
Because there is no proof, or reason to believe.

I could go out right now and have hot sex with some barn animals right now, or maybe rob some banks, kill some people, and nothing would happen.

Not that I would want to do any of that.
O_o
except you'd probably get arrested.

[J.C.]

And you'd prolly get a disease from boinking the farm animals.

[Burn That Shit]

And god would probably smite you from the heavens.

[sdbrown]

If he was Jewish God would just make him apologize to the barn animals and bankers three times and he'd be ok.

[Charles777]

except you'd probably get arrested.
Yes, I would, but "god" wouldn't be able to do anything about it.

Is bestiality a crime?
O_o
I don't see any harm in it.




Totally kidding(?)

[Nevuk]

Bestiality is a morality/taboo crime. Some area it's illegal, other areas it's not considered a problem large enough to be legislated . Not that I personally have any issue with a guy having sex with a cow, it's not personally appealing. However, some places have rule that states anything over 40 pounds is fair game (I think Kentucky might be like this, but it's just a rumor I've heard. Never researched it). The only real harm from it is that it can be considered cruelty to animals.

If you want to read something weird, in Winthrop's (the guy who said "We shall be a city upon a hill") history of the mayflower thing there's a description of where a guy had sex with 6 sheep, a cow, turkey, and some really random other stuff. So Beastiality's been with us for a while.

[benn10]

1. Please show me a non biblical source of anyone who met Jesus in person.

2. Please explain the huge similarities between Jesus' life and other messiahs who pre-date him.

3. Assuming Jesus did exist, please explain to me how Jesus having existed as a mortal therefore makes him the son of God. There is a large void there which needs filling.

1. http://www.bibleviews.com/non-biblical.html

2. I wasn't aware of any previous messiahs, if you could clarify that for me.

3. Jesus is a mortal incarnation of god, exhibited by his god-like abilities and mortal body.

Pose cynical questions, and ye shall receive an answer.

[J.C.]

3. Jesus is a mortal incarnation of god, exhibited by his god-like abilities and mortal body.

Well, now that you put it that way.

[samsara]

why does this keep on getting bumped.?

[benn10]

why does this keep on getting bumped.?

Because you just bumped it.

[samsara]

Because you just bumped it.

Nope the person a few posts up bumped it.

[benn10]

"Emperor Tiberitus (14-37) or Claudius (41-54) issued an edict against grave robbing. An inscription of it was found in Nazareth. It reads:
"Ordinances of Caesar, it is my pleasure that graves and tombs remain undisturbed in perpetuity for those who have made them for the cult of their ancestors or children or members of their house. If however any man lay information that another has either demolished them, or has in any other way extracted the buried, or has maliciously transferred them to other places in order to wrong them, or has displaced the sealing of other stones, against such one I order that a trial be instituted, as in respect of the gods, so in regard to the cult of mortals. For it shall be much more obligatory to honor the buried. Let it be absolutely forbidden for anyone to disturb them, in case of contravention I desire that the offender be sentenced to capital punishment on charge of violation of sepuiture." Before this time punishment would had been mild. Why was it changed to death? We know this decreed was soon after Christ's resurrection. Was it due to a reaction against the turmoil in Israel caused His resurrection?"




ahahahahhahaahahahahahahahahahaahah ahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahhahaah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahah ahahahahahahaahahahahahahahaha that is without doubt the worst piece of evidence I have ever come across on the internet for anything, ever.


Josephus never met Jesus. He wrote one paragraph on him which most christian scholars accept has in part been forged and in many cases entirely. In is not remotely reliable evidence.


All the other sources refer to historians describing later christians who died long after Jesus's death. No one met Jesus and wrote about it.




http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa3.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa2.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jckr.htm



Go back to school kid. You honestly believe that passes for evidence?

I fully understand where you're coming from, but to inquiry in the manner that you have is completely offensive. And who are you to say that Josephus doesn't represent Jesus? Show me your college degree in archaeology, history, or biblical studies, and I shall humbly respect your pomposity. (I'm assuming my answer to your asinine third question is correct because you didn't seem to have a rebuttal.)

[benn10]

Ha, Ivy League school? You might want to check your grammar before you put that out there. If you are receiving a history degree, you would also know that Wikipedia can not be relied on as a dependable source.

Jesus' divinity is only supported by the concept of faith. There is no irrefutable evidence to support it. The bible tells of his miraculous acts and it is up to a member of Christianity to have faith that they occurred.

[J.C.]

Jesus' divinity is only supported by the concept of faith. There is no irrefutable evidence to support it. The bible tells of his miraculous acts and it is up to a member of Christianity to have faith that they occurred.

A lack of evidence seems good enough for me.

I don't know we haven't made faith an intergral part of our judicial system.

[benn10]

Don't get too upset I caught you out.


Wikipedia is perfectly reliable in this case. It states what various authors think about Josephus. I know you're what 18, still in school and your teachers tell you never to use wiki for your little homework asignments, but try to use your brain every now and then. There is no problem with using wiki here, if you feel it misrepresents the case of any authors it paraphrases or quotes from, feel free to bring that up.

Wikipedia is much, much more reliable than 99% of other internet sources but it's actually open to scrutiny and correction and is out there in the public domain, as opposed to almost every other site on the web, which could easilly be the work of a lone crackpot (see. your 'evidence' in this thread). If you actually had anything other than air between your ears you would have been able to figure that out for yourself, rather than reciting tedious, internet-genuis cliches.

If you had ever actually read a real book on the topic (No, Biblical fiction doesn't count) you may have discovered that it is near impossible to get a reputable internet source because the vast majority of books or not availiable for free online. So we are left with either some ill-informed moron's rantings on a private site, or wikipedia; a site in the public domain, which is open to scrutiny and correction and make at least some attempt site sources. It is also part of wiki's ethos to remain impartial on ALL issues.


So why on earth did you just try and prove it using the scientific method? Contradictory no? The faith argument is a nice fall back for sure, but we both know it's pretty pathetic and doesn't cut it. Hence why you tried to prove God exists initially, before using the faith argument when that didn't pull through. It appears you and I both value real evidence over faith.

You see, I'm not exactly a religious person. I'm just merely sticking up for those who are. Faith is admittedly irrational, but it is the glue that binds humanity to ethical standards, if I am not mistaken. I do not know if your intent is to dissuade people away from faith in the supernatural, but why question the existence of a religious icon, if not just for the sport of good argument?

(And by the way, referring to my statement of "checking your grammar," you wrongly placed "It" in the stead of "In" in the first sentence of your previous post. I'm sure your "equivalent of an Ivy League School" would have caught you on that one. )

[benn10]

Morality is derived from religion. Wars in the Middle East, my friend, stem from intolerance of other peoples' beliefs and poor leadership.
(HDI is representative of per capita GDP, education, and life expectancy, and is in no way related to the religion of a given country)

And if you're going to speak ill of Americans in the Southern U.S., I'll certainly have a rebuttal. Were the students who murdered countless classmates in Columbine not athiest????

At least be tolerant of religion, bro.

[J.C.]

Faith is admittedly irrational, but it is the glue that binds humanity to ethical standards, if I am not mistaken.

So true, like when it was used to rationalize slavery and the oppression of women in this country.

Religion has no monopoly on morality. In fact, it's been guilty of just as much wrong-doing as a lack of faith has.

The religious are the overwhelming majority in this country. Whining about people needing to tolerate them is silly. Those who lack faith are very much still pariahs in the mainstream consciousness of this country.

[benn10]

No. Wars derive from man's inherent instinct for power, wealth and resources. Every war that has ever occured has been because of this. Usually it is dressed in a petty justification such as an imminent threat or what have you but the lust of power/wealth/resources, from individuals or a group, is always the cause.

What those graphs show is that man is not better off with religion and actually those of us living in states wherer the majority are not religious are doing better for ourselves.


Atheists, it's plural. You cannot be atheist, you are either an atheist or you can have a groups of atheists.

Sure they were, what does that have to do with anything? I never said individual atheists are capable of doing horrible things.

As for the south, I enjoy this site. http://www.fuckthesouth.com/
It's humerous and raises many valid points.


Who is being intolerant here? I don't see how not believing and explaining why counts as intolerance. We in secular Europe/Canada/Australia are far more tolerant of religion than anywhere else.

For supposedly going to college, your English skills are horrible. Athiest was used as an adjective you moron.

You know what, you've proven yourself to anyone who reads this thread as an ignorant, intolerant bastard. I used the Columbine athiest example to prove to you how simple-minded your generalizations about the South were. You cannot take the unforgivable acts of a small minority and associate them with the aggregate.

Have a wonderful day,

-Your dear friend Ben

[J.C.]

For supposedly going to college, your English skills are horrible. Athiest was used as an adjective you moron.

You're aware you've been misspelling the word 'atheist', right?

[salmarnirecho]

You're aware you've been misspelling the word 'atheist', right?



:lol:

[salmarnirecho]

For supposedly going to college, your English skills are horrible. Athiest was used as an adjective you moron.

You know what, you've proven yourself to anyone who reads this thread as an ignorant, intolerant bastard. I used the Columbine athiest example to prove to you how simple-minded your generalizations about the South were. You cannot take the unforgivable acts of a small minority and associate them with the aggregate.

Have a wonderful day,

-Your dear friend Ben

Just because a violent, immoral act occurred in the northwest doesn't change the statistics. And just because a few atheists in a school in Colorado committed murder doesn't mean that all atheists are blood thirsty, moral-less killers. Don't generalize and then get angry at others for generalizing.

[boykosaurus]

For supposedly going to college, your English skills are horrible. Athiest was used as an adjective you moron.

You know what, you've proven yourself to anyone who reads this thread as an ignorant, intolerant bastard. I used the Columbine athiest example to prove to you how simple-minded your generalizations about the South were. You cannot take the unforgivable acts of a small minority and associate them with the aggregate.

Have a wonderful day,

-Your dear friend Ben

Sorry dude, you got owned.

[boykosaurus]

No. Wars derive from man's inherent instinct for power, wealth and resources. Every war that has ever occured has been because of this. Usually it is dressed in a petty justification such as an imminent threat or what have you but the lust of power/wealth/resources, from individuals or a group, is always the cause.

What those graphs show is that man is not better off with religion and actually those of us living in states wherer the majority are not religious are doing better for ourselves.


Atheists, it's plural. You cannot be atheist, you are either an atheist or you can have a groups of atheists.

Sure they were, what does that have to do with anything? I never said individual atheists are capable of doing horrible things.

As for the south, I enjoy this site. http://www.fuckthesouth.com/
It's humerous and raises many valid points.


Who is being intolerant here? I don't see how not believing and explaining why counts as intolerance. We in secular Europe/Canada/Australia are far more tolerant of religion than anywhere else.

Well, except the Germans. The whole Turks/Muslims situation there isn't very good.

[Noak]

I'm atheist because it feels right.

[DejaNew]

As a christian, I get angry when other supposed "christians" bash other people's beliefs, and try and scare people into believing what they believe. to be honest, if I didn't already believe in God (not only because I was raised to, but because I did alot of research and soul searching myself) I don't think I would want to. So many christians nowadays don't realize that the way to get others to even consider christianity, is to let them make their own decision. I find the best way to share your beliefs, is to tell somebody what you believe, not bash their thoughts or religions, and support whatever decisions they decide to make. You don't necessarily have to agree, but you should show respect.

[Zachals]

I am a Christian. I love God and he... loves... me... back!

[npmshah]

There's issues between muslims and non muslims everywhere in world right now unfortunately.
yes... that is very true
i heard Australias PM said he doesnt want people like that in his country
and in india thare have been hindu/muslim clashes for years
(which is quite strange because, as i grew up in a hindu family)
we beleive that prophet muahmmed was an incarnation of God...

[npmshah]

As a christian, I get angry when other supposed "christians" bash other people's beliefs, and try and scare people into believing what they believe. to be honest, if I didn't already believe in God (not only because I was raised to, but because I did alot of research and soul searching myself) I don't think I would want to. So many christians nowadays don't realize that the way to get others to even consider christianity, is to let them make their own decision. I find the best way to share your beliefs, is to tell somebody what you believe, not bash their thoughts or religions, and support whatever decisions they decide to make. You don't necessarily have to agree, but you should show respect.
i may have just seen your username for the first time
but i have alot of respect for right now my friend
i come from a hindu family but do indeed find myself doubting god's existence
so for now i would call myself a theistic existentialist

[Magnus]

Raised in the church, I would still be on "fire for god" if it weren't for a series of things about my life that changed my mind. Now I'm a hardcore atheist and my parents don't like it.

[TK]

You're sooooo cool.

[Divinehand]

The concept of God will forever be an anomoly.
I would think both well-rounded christians, athiests, and agnostics would all agree that the existence of God cannot be factually proven. Something that supposedly transcends physical manifestation jointly avoids the only means for substantial proof.

But at the same time, can such an entity really be disproven? Something that defies every naturally ocurring law the Earth presents us defies our only way of cognitive approach--our only way of coming to a so-called unquestionable truth. Take this for example. Your friend invents an incredible spray. if he sprays something with it, the object will become impalpable. It will be undetectable to human senses. So he sprays a box of kleenex, and asks you to come in his room. How can you disprove something invisible, and ultimately untangible is not there?


We are but one planet in one solar system of one milky way of one galaxy in the whole universe, which stretches on into infinite expanse. How can we think our math, our laws, our science is absolute truth that governs all of the universe--that obviously disproves the existence of God, when we have not even explored past the distance of our own solar sytem? I say humankind are a load of pretentious bastards, a load of infants trying to handle and grasp a sphere infinitely larger than their tiny hands could possibly manage.
I believe that in some places, things naturally float up, the speed of sound is faster than that of light, and toasters randomly poof out of the air.

[bowl of oranges]

I just read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. I was in a state of agnosticism ever since I was about 14, but this has me pretty convinced.

[eleven eleven]

I am an Agnostic/Atheist. I have never in my life believed in anything supernatural and have never seen anything to suggest any kind of Deity exists, that is, in addition to the obvious evidence against the supernatural, why I do not believe.

The reason I am agnostic is not because I am on the fence with regards to organised religion but because no theory in my opinion has currently explained why the big bang (if it happened) occured, or what came before it or how the universe came to be. Now it's clear God is not the answer to this but at the same time it's also clear that no scientific explanation really explains it at present, so I am agnostic as to why the universe exists. I think that is the only reasonable position, at the moment while it's obvious God (as in an omnipotent creature and all that jive) doesn't exist we don't know why the universe exists and imo no one with sense can suggest otherwise.

This.

[Divinehand]

Nothing can ever, ever be disproven. It is an impossiblity.
I would agree.

I just blanketed my points with a psuedo-cynical bias in order to garner athiests and agnostics attention.

I don't mind agnostics at all. I myself used to be one.
But atheists irritate me. Their thinking is too conventional...

[Divinehand]

Yupp. I am.


I think Christians can be great, genuinely loving poeple.
The whole religion just gets a bad rap from blockheads like radical anit-gay protesters, adamant creationists, and dickholes who push their views.

If you meet the right people, the whole Jesus thing can be really great, actually.

[Divinehand]

Well I've come to the conclusion that he is. The pleasantness of my situation isn't what drove me to that decision.

I've found enough evidence to satisfy my personal doubts.
I'd suggest reading the book "The Case for Christ".

[Un'Aria Ancora]

People feel all kinds of things that are false, you can't go based off of feeling.

Not one person in history, despite the countless who have devoted their entire lives to figuring out how we came to be, what happens to us when we die, and if a soul exists has ever figured it out. Scientists, Christians, or philosophers.

The only logical title to give is agnostic. I hope to be convinced otherwise in my lifetime, but I can't see it happening.

[Magnus]

If you meet the right people, the whole Jesus thing can be really great, actually.


tldr; for anybody else his significant other probably dragged him into it

[.:Maxx:.]

Yupp. I am.


I think Christians can be great, genuinely loving poeple.
The whole religion just gets a bad rap from blockheads like radical anit-gay protesters, adamant creationists, and dickholes who push their views.

If you meet the right people, the whole Jesus thing can be really great, actually.

Here's the deal. I can totally understand the important, uplifting, positive messages that Christianity teaches. I think that its great to have an organization that exists to prevent people from doing dangerous stupid things and I can appreciate how many people have benefited from having religion in their lives.

THAT BEING SAID!

There is a very threatening, distrustful, hateful and sometimes brutal overtone to the whole thing. To me, it's message has always been this:

"Be good, or else you'll go to hell."

And that just speaks of people who are only NOT doing things like murder because they feel they will be punished for it later.

If you are a good person, you don't need to be threatened into not killing people.

[Divinehand]

Here's the deal. I can totally understand the important, uplifting, positive messages that Christianity teaches. I think that its great to have an organization that exists to prevent people from doing dangerous stupid things and I can appreciate how many people have benefited from having religion in their lives.

THAT BEING SAID!

There is a very threatening, distrustful, hateful and sometimes brutal overtone to the whole thing. To me, it's message has always been this:

"Be good, or else you'll go to hell."

And that just speaks of people who are only NOT doing things like murder because they feel they will be punished for it later.

If you are a good person, you don't need to be threatened into not killing people.

Your perception of Christianity is just twisted.
Perhaps you've had some bad experiences with the spirituality.
A lot of people do.
In our increasingly selfish, materialistic, and shallow world spirituality has become a dying breed.

But anyway, all the connotations you surround Christianity with aren't true.
It's never been about "Be good or go to hell". It's just been about love. Love your heavenly father, and love your neighbor like yourself. The rest will come hand in hand with the first two.

Genuine Christians aren't compelled to stay Christians and be good because they don't want to go to hell. They're compelled because they love others, and they love God, and they want to do good for the world.

Perhaps your assumptions are true for some. But in which case, they're not genuine Christians. They're just shells of human beings consumed by their own fear, using Christianity as a get-out-of-jail-free card.

[Divinehand]

I'm a busy man so I won't be reading that anytime soon, care to paraphrase for me why exactly Jesus is the son of God?

I have many reasons. One being that he perfectly fits all the prophetical predictions for the messiah(all of which are precise and specific), which were written in the old testament or Torah, a document written thousands of years before his birth.
But dude. I'm not hear to argue with you. You gotta find you're own truth. Some guy on a message board shouldn't be the one giving you all the answers. It should be yourself. It's a personal thing.
Find some time, sit down, and study up. Take in both sides of the matter, and draw your own conclusions.

[Divinehand]

Have you ever thought the people writing the sections of the New Testament had that in mind when they wrote it?
Yah.
So you're assuming the writers were crooks who fabricated a bunch of bullshit? Understandable.
Ok, If so, then what was their motivation? Why would they decieve people like that?
Jesus's existence is, for one, historically documented. As is his crucifixion. So that, for sure, was not fabricated.

But anyway, a misconception needs to be addressed. Writers of the Bible were mediums of God. when the Bible is referred to as "God's word" it means just that. If you don't buy the whole Jesus thing, I guess that really doesn't change anything, though.

[Burn That Shit]

Yah.
So you're assuming the writers were crooks who fabricated a bunch of bullshit? Understandable.
Ok, If so, then what was their motivation? Why would they decieve people like that?


Economic and social power.