ALCS: Rays vs. Red Sox

[startBBtoday]

lolololololollololo i no b/c who needs one of the best relief pitchers in the entire game of baseball?

Shut the fuck up, clown.

legitimately lol'd, that doesn't happen very often on the internet.

[preppyak]

yeah but Garza came up huge. 2-0, 1.38 era. Upton still had an amazing series though. Came up huge in Boston
Yeah, I just think a guy who accounts for 15 runs for the team (8 runs and 7 others batted in) is more important. His sac-fly won Game 2, he broke open Game 3 early, and really broke open Game 5.

Oh well, maybe of the World Series instead

[livethesounds]

lolololololollololo i no b/c who needs one of the best relief pitchers in the entire game of baseball?

Shut the fuck up, clown.

hahahaha

[RyanFTW]

Garza owned that game (aside from Smalls smacking that tater). I'm really glad the Rays got it.

[preppyak]

Garza owned that game (aside from Smalls smacking that tater). I'm really glad the Rays got it.
....

[CarlosLunes]

dusty

[RyanFTW]

....

Sorry, in my small group of friends, we refer to Dustin Pedroia as Smalls.

[atticusfinch]

lolololololollololo i no b/c who needs one of the best relief pitchers in the entire game of baseball?

Shut the fuck up, clown.

Everybody's gotta get their shot in I guess, huh? Lidge choked his way out of an Astros uni. Really guy? Cool it.

[Scott Weber]

Everybody's gotta get their shot in I guess, huh? Lidge choked his way out of an Astros uni. Fuck you, asshole.
you are so much fail tonight. sob story.

[pand75]

Scott you caught the edit.

[Scott Weber]

Scott you caught the edit.
moderators can do all sorts of cool shit.

[Scott Weber]

lol @ "really guy?"

[bigmike]

Everybody's gotta get their shot in I guess, huh? Lidge choked his way out of an Astros uni. Really guy? Cool it.
1st, sick edit.
2nd, one home run does not mean he choked his way out of an Astros Uni. His 2007 save totals were bad, but he was still saving 3 out of ever 4 games. He was averaging 36 save opportunities since taking over the closers role in 2004. His 73% save rate in 2007 extrapolated to 36 save opps means he was on pace to save 26 of the 36 saves. Since 2005, when he spent his first whole season as a closer, from 05-06 he was averaging 42 save opps, and at 73%, that would mean he was on pace to save about 31 games.

And that's not even going into the fact that saves mean nothing and that "closers" are drastically overrated. And nevermind the fact that his strikeout/walk numbers never deviated from what they had been and that his ERA (which is [1] flawed to look at for any pitcher and [2] is beyond flawed to look at for a reliever, but I'll use it since I'm not sure you're an actual, functioning, 21 year old) was only high in 1 season (2006) in which he STILL managed to save 84% of his save opportunities.

And how did that trade work out for the Lastros? Gave away one of the best relievers in baseball for Michael Bourn, Geoff Geary, and minor leaguer Michael Costanzo.

Michael Bourn: .229/.288/.300 vital line. That is absolutely atrocious. ATROCIOUS. He was very good defensively in centerfield, but that just takes him from being the worst everyday player in baseball to maybe 2nd worst in baseball. Well done.

Geoff Geary: Couldn't crack a 1.70 strikeout-to-walk ratio, didn't convert a 'precious save' that apparently you value so much, and was pretty much a run-of-the-mill relief pitcher that was getting paid about 3 times as much as the league minimum -- even though there are relievers in the minors that can replicate such mediocre K:BB ratios.

Michael Costanzo: A 24-year-old kid in Triple-A with a "meh" glove, and posted a .728 OPS, average on-base skills and slugging that would make Juan Pierre laugh at the lack of an ability to drive the ball in 2008.

Great trade. Give me the "choking closer" in Brad Lidge over every single one of those guys. The Astros are a fucking joke of a franchise and will be a joke for more than the next decade.

You're a fucking dolt. Watch baseball. Know something. Then come back to me.

[Scott Weber]

1st, sick edit.
2nd, one home run does not mean he choked his way out of an Astros Uni. His 2007 save totals were bad, but he was still saving 3 out of ever 4 games. He was averaging 36 save opportunities since taking over the closers role in 2004. His 73% save rate in 2007 extrapolated to 36 save opps means he was on pace to save 26 of the 36 saves. Since 2005, when he spent his first whole season as a closer, from 05-06 he was averaging 42 save opps, and at 73%, that would mean he was on pace to save about 31 games.

And that's not even going into the fact that saves mean nothing and that "closers" are drastically overrated. And nevermind the fact that his strikeout/walk numbers never deviated from what they had been and that his ERA (which is [1] flawed to look at for any pitcher and [2] is beyond flawed to look at for a reliever, but I'll use it since I'm not sure you're an actual, functioning, 21 year old) was only high in 1 season (2006) in which he STILL managed to save 84% of his save opportunities.

And how did that trade work out for the Lastros? Gave away one of the best relievers in baseball for Michael Bourn, Geoff Geary, and minor leaguer Michael Costanzo.

Michael Bourn: .229/.288/.300 vital line. That is absolutely atrocious. ATROCIOUS. He was very good defensively in centerfield, but that just takes him from being the worst everyday player in baseball to maybe 2nd worst in baseball. Well done.

Geoff Geary: Couldn't crack a 1.70 strikeout-to-walk ratio, didn't convert a 'precious save' that apparently you value so much, and was pretty much a run-of-the-mill relief pitcher that was getting paid about 3 times as much as the league minimum -- even though there are relievers in the minors that can replicate such mediocre K:BB ratios.

Michael Costanzo: A 24-year-old kid in Triple-A with a "meh" glove, and posted a .728 OPS, average on-base skills and slugging that would make Juan Pierre laugh.

Great trade. Give me the "choking closer" in Brad Lidge over every single one of those guys. The Astros are a fucking joke of a franchise and will be a joke for more than the next decade.

You're a fucking dolt. Watch baseball. Know something. Then come back to me.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v619/Weebs/forum%20images/1205148728346.gif

[preppyak]

haha, that may have been the statistical owning of the year...I feel Scott should ban atticus just to allow him to save face

[Bigalan2004]

I remember the days when Lidge was painful to watch on the Astros. I was glad to see him go, haha.

i bet bigmike was licking his chops when he saw this.

[Broken Parachute]

and slugging that would make Juan Pierre laughLOL that seriously made me laugh.

[bigmike]

And just some baselines, here's a spreadsheet (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pGshF__k8q9eYFzkX5aabfQ) that took 3 minutes to put together:

Anyone with a save opportunity from 2004 to 2008 was included:

These players combined for a save% of 66.4% and a strikeout-to-walk ratio of 2.05.

Over that time frame, Brad Lidge is:

163 for 185 in saves (88.1%) and has 544 strikeouts and 154 walks, which is a 3.53 K:BB ratio.

Just sayin'.

[+thecalisonme]

incredible series. thank god the sox aren't going to the world series.
yes cuz tampa philly is quite exciting and im sure everyone at fox is as happy

[Killadelphia]

yes cuz tampa philly is quite exciting and im sure everyone at fox is as happy

I'm happy cockbag.

[LeftWideOpen]

hats off to the Rays .. they were simply the better team. i'll be rooting for them in the world series.

i'm proud of the way we fought but, in the end, we just didn't have enough consistency on offense to overcome a team with that much offensive firepower over the course of 7 games.

[Killadelphia]

Everybody's gotta get their shot in I guess, huh? Lidge choked his way out of an Astros uni. Really guy? Cool it.

Hmm, been great here.

[LeftWideOpen]

curious comment by Francona after the game:

"We didn't get as far as we wanted," said the manager. "We got beat by a very good team. They'll represent the American League very, very well. But this is probably the funnest couple months maybe I've ever had."

think it has anything to do with Manny being gone? haha.

also, as useless as Varitek has become at the plate .. I feel for the guy. He was one of the integral parts of this franchise for a long time and it'll be awkward not seeing him behind the plate in 2009 (my assumption, of course). he always busted his ass for the team. this was from the shaugnessy article today:

"Varitek struck out again in the ninth. Asked after the game if this might be the end of his Sox career, the catcher became emotional and covered his face in a towel. Just after 12:20 this morning, dressed in a gray suit, he walked out of the Sox clubhouse carrying a bag over his shoulder that read "Game Ready."

[LeftWideOpen]

its pretty much a foregone conclusion that Mike Timlin is going to retire. from tony massarotti:

ike Timlin stopped short of formally announcing his retirement, but the veteran reliever said farewell to team officials and teammates as if he were doing so for the last time. Timlin was even gracious with the members of the media, taking time to shake hands and express his gratitude.

"It’s been a pleasure," Timlin said.

Any chance he’ll show up in somebody’s camp next spring?

"Like I said, it’s been a pleasure," Timlin said.

Expect a formal announcement soon.

Massarotti on Tim Wakefield:

In case you’re wondering, Tim Wakefield left no doubt that he wants to return to the Red Sox and pitch again next season, which hardly comes as a surprise. The Red Sox have until just a few days after the World Series to exercise (or not) a regenerating $4 million option on Wakefield’s contract, and he remains a bargain for a club with a projected payroll of somewhere between $140 million and $160 million.

Despite his poor outing in Game 4 of the ALCS, Wakefield made 30 starts and pitched more innings (181) than any Sox starter but Jon Lester (210-1/3). Any suggestion that the Game 4 outing would inspire his retirement was both reactionary and irrational.

"There’s no doubt in my mind that I want to play next year," Wakefield said.

[bostonryan]

its pretty much a foregone conclusion that Mike Timlin is going to retire. from tony massarotti:



Massarotti on Tim Wakefield:


i really appreciate what timlin has done on the sox. i hope he comes back in some sort of advisor role either minors or otherwise

[CarlosLunes]

so why was timlin on this alcs roster and allowed to suck

[Smithers]

congrats to the rays and their fans. i like the way our team fought, but the rays were the better team. i wonder about what the outcome would have been with a healthy lowell, ortiz, and beckett, but thems the breaks.


the end of baseball sucks when you don't like hockey or basketball.

[bigmike]

I would've like to have seen this series play out with a healthy Mike Lowell.

[CarlosLunes]

i would have liked to have seen it played out without alex cora stepping a foot onto the field

[CellarGhosts]

I also would've liked to have seen a healthy Lowell.

but oh well.

[c_rob2700]

Much more excited about the World Series now, Phillies would've been easy for the Sox

[xbrokendownx]

Much more excited about the World Series now, Phillies would've been easy for the Sox



:-|

[c_rob2700]

:-|
*If the Sox would have made it*

[xbrokendownx]

how the fuck do you know the phillies wouldve been easy for the sox? your opinion means shit

[bigmike]

*If the Sox would have made it*
So wouldn't the Phils be even easier for a team that beat the Red Sox, by your logic? Or don't you think the Rays are as good as Boston?

[CubbyNick42]

"Fuckin' Cardinals. At least it'll be an easy series for the Tigers." - every Cubs fan, Oct. 2006

[bigmike]

"Fuckin' Cardinals. At least it'll be an easy series for the Tigers." - every Cubs fan, Oct. 2006
Thanks for bumming me out, Nick.

[CubbyNick42]

Thanks for bumming me out, Nick.
:hug:

[lrz2525]

just got my tickets for the 1st game in Tampa!

[Chris M.]

Too bad you're about a week and a half too late

[HoustonCalling]

yes cuz tampa philly is quite exciting and im sure everyone at fox is as happy i could care less about the ratings, FOX will be fine. and it should be one hell of a series.

[Killadelphia]

http://www.the700level.com/images/2008/10/20/ringingidiots.jpg

made by Boston fans.

[jaimej]

Dennis went on a rant on Sunday about how Rays fans don't know how to cheer themselves and need to use stupid cowbells. Haha.

[Scott Weber]

hahahaha bitter?

[LeftWideOpen]

i dont think you have to be a bitter red sox fan to realize that the rays fans have been terrible.

i don't see any difference between the cowbells and the dumb thunder sticks angels fans have used in the past.

[jaimej]

Haha, he bitched about the thunder sticks as well.

[Scott Weber]

i dont think you have to be a bitter red sox fan to realize that the rays fans have been terrible.

i don't see any difference between the cowbells and the dumb thunder sticks angels fans have used in the past.
I mean no offense by this, but I would prefer cowbells and a true home field advantage that deathly silent Fenway Park with people leaving early.

I think the fact that people thought the thunder sticks and cowbells were "terrible" only speaks to a true home field advantage.

[CubbyNick42]

I think the fact that people thought the thunder sticks and cowbells were "terrible" only speaks to a true home field advantage.
Yep. Though I'm not a big believer in the fans having anything to do with home field advantage.

[thatsignant]

Yep. Though I'm not a big believer in the fans having anything to do with home field advantage.

Can you explain further on this? I would think the exact opposite

[LeftWideOpen]

I mean no offense by this, but I would prefer cowbells and a true home field advantage that deathly silent Fenway Park with people leaving early.

i dont know if you are trying to bait me into an argument, but did you miss Game 5 when everyone was on their feet for Pedroia when they were down 7-0? the crowd was alive that entire game, even though we were getting our asses handed to us. some fans left in the 7th, before the rally, but thats going to happen when you charge absurd prices for playoff tickets and attract some people who only go to the games to say they were there. the overwhelming majority of the crowd remained. peter gammons, tim kurkijan, etc, who were there, testified to that the next day and spoke extensively on how the crowd was alive and on their feet for the majority of the game (despite the score).

but, are we really going to try and compare the passion/vested interest of sox fans to rays fans? the fact that rays fans insist on using those horrible cowbells takes nothing away from what the team accomplished .. the point is that they are just an annoying prop, used to try and get fans to make noise. i don't know anyone here who has ever supported the angels using thunder sticks, so i want to make it understood that there is a clear distinction between the actual Rays team and the fans using cowbells. by criticizing Rays fans using cowbells, I am in no way criticizing the Rays and what they accomplished. i've said it before and i will say it again: they were the better team.

[CubbyNick42]

Can you explain further on this? I would think the exact opposite
I traveled for two months this past summer with a college team, and we never went farther than six hours from home, and never for more than 3-4 days at a time. And even then...it wears on you. It wore on me as a broadcaster, and I wasn't even doing anything physical. Magnify the travel times, trips, and season by threefold, and there's your reason the home team wins a majority of its games. Between the lines, for the players, it's the same game they've played their whole life, but when you take them out of their environment and disrupt their eating, sleeping, and pregame habits, what little advantage there is becomes more pronounced.

[CarlosLunes]

The thundersticks they use in anaheim are just as fucking terrible.

The cowbells were still fucking annoying early in the season when the stadium wasn't even close to full (and mostly sox fans).

I don't think the cowbells bothered players as much as it bothered people watching the game, just let the hayseeds enjoy a baseball game no need to turn it into a monster truck rally environment.

[Scott Weber]

i dont know if you are trying to bait me into an argument, but did you miss Game 5 when everyone was on their feet for Pedroia when they were down 7-0? the crowd was alive that entire game, even though we were getting our asses handed to us. some fans left in the 7th, before the rally, but thats going to happen when you charge absurd prices for playoff tickets and attract some people who only go to the games to say they were there. the overwhelming majority of the crowd remained. peter gammons, tim kurkijan, etc, who were there, testified to that the next day and spoke extensively on how the crowd was alive and on their feet for the majority of the game (despite the score).

but, are we really going to try and compare the passion/vested interest of sox fans to rays fans? the fact that rays fans insist on using those horrible cowbells takes nothing away from what the team accomplished .. the point is that they are just an annoying prop, used to try and get fans to make noise. i don't know anyone here who has ever supported the angels using thunder sticks, so i want to make it understood that there is a clear distinction between the actual Rays team and the fans using cowbells. by criticizing Rays fans using cowbells, I am in no way criticizing the Rays and what they accomplished. i've said it before and i will say it again: they were the better team.
I'm not trying to bait you, please refrain from getting super-defensive (although it's too late.)

I would disagree with the conduct of the fans in Boston up until the comeback (when of course they were into it) and I think a lot of the fans here would as well. That's all I'll say.

I'm not trying to compare anything. I just don't understand why Boston fans are so upset and angry now while they say "hey they were better no worries." Really? You KNOW I'm not trying to compare the fans, I don't even care. The cowbells is something that one dude started in Tampa a long time ago when they were horrible, and now it caught on. It gives the fans something to latch onto, it gives them an identity, it gives them passion - how can you fault them for that?

I just think this whole "we're Boston and we're better than noisemakers" thing is pathetic. I know you're going to get really mad about that and start blabbing about tradition and whatnot but the fact is it's their stadium and whatever they feel gives them home field advantage is fine. I thought the thunder sticks were effective as well. But now, making shirts that call them idiots for bouncing on a trend that increases fan unity, identity and passion? That's pretty fucking ridiculous if you ask me.

[LeftWideOpen]

i agree, wholeheartedly, with cubbynick. the travel is clearly the driving force behind home field advantage. that isn't to say that fans are meaningless, by any means, but i do think their role in home-field is secondary to travel.

i think fans probably have their greatest effect on the opposing pitchers, with crowd noise contributing to their loss of composure/focus.

[CarlosLunes]

You know what the fans can latch on to? A quality baseball team, that's what they have now.

the cowbells are annoying

[LeftWideOpen]

I'm not trying to bait you, please refrain from getting super-defensive (although it's too late.)

I would disagree with the conduct of the fans in Boston up until the comeback (when of course they were into it) and I think a lot of the fans here would as well. That's all I'll say.

I'm not trying to compare anything. I just don't understand why Boston fans are so upset and angry now while they say "hey they were better no worries." Really? You KNOW I'm not trying to compare the fans, I don't even care. The cowbells is something that one dude started in Tampa a long time ago when they were horrible, and now it caught on. It gives the fans something to latch onto, it gives them an identity, it gives them passion - how can you fault them for that?

I just think this whole "we're Boston and we're better than noisemakers" thing is pathetic. I know you're going to get really mad about that and start blabbing about tradition and whatnot but the fact is it's their stadium and whatever they feel gives them home field advantage is fine. I thought the thunder sticks were effective as well. But now, making shirts that call them idiots for bouncing on a trend that increases fan unity, identity and passion? That's pretty fucking ridiculous if you ask me.

oh okay, i'm glad we cleared that up. i'll pass on getting deeper into this, though, since you just made a mountain out of a molehill and it really is an insignificant argument. i found the cowbells to be a gimmick and it reflected poorly on rays fans: that is the only observation i was making. thats not an observation that is specific to sox fans.

[Scott Weber]

oh okay, i'm glad we cleared that up. i'll pass on getting deeper into this, though, since you just made a mountain out of a molehill and it really is an insignificant argument. i found the cowbells to be a gimmick and it reflected poorly on rays fans: that is the only observation i was making. thats not an observation that is specific to sox fans.
Ok.

[TheOtherAndrew]

Every team has shitty, obnoxious fans.

/obvious

[thatsignant]

I traveled for two months this past summer with a college team, and we never went farther than six hours from home, and never for more than 3-4 days at a time. And even then...it wears on you. It wore on me as a broadcaster, and I wasn't even doing anything physical. Magnify the travel times, trips, and season by threefold, and there's your reason the home team wins a majority of its games. Between the lines, for the players, it's the same game they've played their whole life, but when you take them out of their environment and disrupt their eating, sleeping, and pregame habits, what little advantage there is becomes more pronounced.

Yea I agree with this, but I will also say that from my experience playing we knew when we were going to play a school that was notorious for having large crowds and obnoxious fans and it definitely got in our heads to some degree. I know we were only college kids but even for pros I would think the opposing crowd is always in the back of their heads, especially if they make some mistakes.

[CubbyNick42]

Yea I agree with this, but I will also say that from my experience playing we knew when we were going to play a school that was notorious for having large crowds and obnoxious fans and it definitely got in our heads to some degree. I know we were only college kids but even for pros I would think the opposing crowd is always in the back of their heads, especially if they make some mistakes.
Right, and I'm not disregarding that entirely, but look at leagues like the CICL, Northwoods League, Frontier League, Northern League - any small college or independent league where crowd support is negligible - and the home teams still win a majority of the games.

[Drew Beringer]

Didn't the Sacramento Kings start the whole cowbell thing? haha

[thatsignant]

Right, and I'm not disregarding that entirely, but look at leagues like the CICL, Northwoods League, Frontier League, Northern League - any small college or independent league where crowd support is negligible - and the home teams still win a majority of the games.


yea good point, it is a bitch to have to wake up to catch the 8 AM bus for a 1 PM doubleheader on a Saturday morning. I guess when you think about the pros, you don't take things like that into account because you don't thikn of them as "normal" people

[CubbyNick42]

yea good point, it is a bitch to have to wake up to catch the 8 AM bus for a 1 PM doubleheader on a Saturday morning. I guess when you think about the pros, you don't take things like that into account because you don't thikn of them as "normal" people
Haha yep, sad but true

[rcrook]

the thundersticks are terrible. they are loud as shit but its terrible trying to watch a baseball game with them because all the kids around you are bored as shit and end up hitting each other with them as you're trying to watch the game.

[bigmike]

I'm against any and all objects like thundersticks and cowbells. They're fucking annoying.

[Killadelphia]

I hate thundersticks, as if they were needed in Philly for the Flyers, they handed that shit out.

Also, I remember some mom using a cowbell during our football game. The entire team wanted to ring her neck.

And for speaking talking about the games in Tampa, from what I've heard, It was about 70/30 Rays-Red Sox fan. Maybe that is why they had to use cowbells to drown out all the Red Sox fans.

[schenksta]

what does being a yankee fan have anything to do with it?

let me rephrase.

being a yankees fan that despises the red sox at that game last night, that was still one of the most amazing things ive ever witnessed.