Buddhism

[loveisdead]

Did a search on it and didn't find anything. Why don't more people follow it? My philosophy class just touched on it and it seems to be by far the most logical religion I've encountered? All the election talk is hurting my brain so I'm changing it up.

[stendhal]

I'm usually a lurker here, but you used the word "logical" so I decided to reply.

That's actually the reason I love buddhism so much, it's extremely logical.

I couldn't tell you why more people don't follow it. I would assume that it's due to the common misconceptions i.e Buddha being just another 'god' , you have to believe in certain aspects like reincarnation, etc, etc.

I don't know exactly what you know, so I won't go into the 'religion' itself. Let me just recommend a book that changed my life drastically and made me fall in love with Buddhism. It's called Hardcore Zen by Brad Warner. If you would rather logic

If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask. I'll answer what I can.

[HashHolly]

I'm usually a lurker here, but you used the word "logical" so I decided to reply.

That's actually the reason I love buddhism so much, it's extremely logical.

I couldn't tell you why more people don't follow it. I would assume that it's due to the common misconceptions i.e Buddha being just another 'god' , you have to believe in certain aspects like reincarnation, etc, etc.

I don't know exactly what you know, so I won't go into the 'religion' itself. Let me just recommend a book that changed my life drastically and made me fall in love with Buddhism. It's called Hardcore Zen by Brad Warner. If you would rather logic

If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask. I'll answer what I can.

I've always said that if i were to ever become religious again, i'd choose buddhism, im going to check out that book you just recommended.

[&IllBeTheReason]

Being from a very non-religious catholic family, I always want to laugh at how firmly my mother believes in karma and reincarnation. But, in all seriousness, karma has never failed us.

[loveisdead]

Like all religion it's all built on unverifiable superstition and it will be a cold day in atheist hell before I live my life by it. However, of all the major religions buddhism is by far the best.
The only superstition is reincarnation as far as I know. Why can't people implement every other part about it? I'm fascinated by the entire thing and can't fathom why this religion isn't more popular in western civilization.

[loveisdead]

Karma is dumb.

the four absolute truths are all dumb and suppose that all humans are the same.

the whole philosophy is completely at odds with natural selection and natural instinct.
Karma is dumb. I think there is a lot right about the four noble truths. We are certainly always suffering in some way. And I love the idea of nirvana.

[saysmydoctor]

I firmly believe in the concept of reincarnation.

[loveisdead]

I firmly believe in the concept of reincarnation.
That's the one part of Buddhism I have a disagreement with. Otherwise I think it's an amazing religion.

[saysmydoctor]

I think it's plausible, it's very...cosmological. I don't see it as a superstition.

[loveisdead]

I think it's plausible, it's very...cosmological. I don't see it as a superstition.
Anything is plausible. I don't rule it out, but I don't believe in it.

[saysmydoctor]

I don't see how the four absolute truths imply humans are all the same.

[loveisdead]

They don't. I really don't see how he came to that conclusion.

[loveisdead]

lol please show me how in any way reincarnation is plausible? Also don't give me that shit about matter can't destroyed it has to go somewhere, that is not reincarnation.
Prove to me that it isn't plausible.

[loveisdead]

It implies everyone in life experiences the same basic issues and reacts to them in the same basic way. That is complete bullshit. Moreover desire does not ruin everyone's life and many find it a greatly enjoyable pursuit which is ultimately their goal in life and rather than cause depression and suffering it envigorates and gives life purpose. Others however do let desires bring them suffering and despair.
It says that every human suffers. How is that hard to believe? It offers a way to overcome that suffering but doesn't maintain that you stay that course. It says nothing about desire. It says that your ego is the cause of all suffering and to overcome your ego leads you into a state or nirvana. All of which makes perfect sense to me.

[saysmydoctor]

It implies everyone in life experiences the same basic issues and reacts to them in the same basic way. That is complete bullshit. Moreover desire does not ruin everyone's life and many find it a greatly enjoyable pursuit which is ultimately their goal in life and rather than cause depression and suffering it envigorates and gives life purpose. Others however do let desires bring them suffering and despair.
Someone hasn't taken a sociology class.


And yeah, Ryan, simply because it can't be proven false, doesn't mean it is true. Flipsidedly, no one said it was true--we both said it was plausible. Please read before you post.

[loveisdead]

Proving something doesn't exist is a logical impossiblity. There is nothingmyou can ever logically disprove (just try it), that is a foundation of logic itself. Thus the onus in this situation is to always prove something does exist or at the very least provide evidence in favour of it.
In this case neither of us will provide any conclusive evidence to back up our claims. It's a belief that nobody has been able to disprove. I don't believe in it, but I will not count it out.

[saysmydoctor]

Every human has the basic issue. Freudian's structural model of the psyche details this basic issue of all humans.

[loveisdead]

Someone hasn't taken a sociology class.


And yeah, Ryan, simply because it can't be proven false, doesn't mean it is true. Flipsidedly, no one said it was true--we both said it was plausible. Please read before you post.
huh? That's exactly what I said haha. Is the bold directed to Ben or me?

[HashHolly]

reincarnation is no less plausible than dying and going to heaven

[saysmydoctor]

huh? That's exactly what I said haha. Is the bold directed to Ben or me?
Towards him.

[loveisdead]

reincarnation is no less plausible than dying and going to heaven
Correct. That's our entire argument here. We cannot prove either one, but I refuse to count either of those things out.

[loveisdead]

No it says that humans suffer because of desire and the causes of that desire are essentially the same across all humans. I find that to be bullshit. I also think that the idea you can avoid this suffering is bullshit and that the idea that you should abandon desire completely runs at odds to the natural world and how man and other animals have come to be.

"Now this ... is the noble truth of suffering: birth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jati_%28Buddhism%29) is suffering, aging (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaramarana) is suffering, illness is suffering, death (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaramarana) is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skandha) subject to clinging (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upadana) are suffering."
It does not just site desire as the cause of suffering. You're discounting a large amount of the teachings.

Yes you can. You never disprove anything but you can beyond all reasonable doubt prove something does exist by using evidence and then attempting to question that evidence and see if it really does prove what you claim. So you come up with the evidence and I'll debunk it all. Then we'll see where we stand.
To disprove something you must also provide evidence and a way to back it up. It doesn't work one way. If you say that reincarnation isn't plausible, then you provide the backing to it. I cannot back that it is possible, and you cannot back that it isn't possible. It is a belief.

[saysmydoctor]

:appl: :appl: :appl: :appl: :appl: :appl: :appl: :appl: :appl:@ Ryan

[saysmydoctor]

Provide evidence to the contrary. Neither is possible.

/discussion

[kshtoinks12]

Buddhism is kinda meh. I wouldn't devote me life to searching for something that I know I'll never find.

[jusscali]

Budha's a cool cat. I'm down.

[nellbelle]

Provide evidence to the contrary. Neither is possible.

/discussion

...Actually, lunchforthesky was correct. You cannot prove a negative. It's a logical impossibility. It's why religion is based on faith, not facts. To argue for evidence of any religious matter is completely illogical, because religion, in the end, is a simple matter of faith, whether it's faith that there is a Heaven or that you can someday come back in x form or even that karma actually exists. There is no evidence at the current time to support any of these ideas. If a person chooses to believe in them, it inevitably has to be in some way based upon faith. From a strictly logic-based, evidence-founded standpoint, it makes sense to deny the existence of anything if there is nothing to support its existence.

[loveisdead]

...Actually, lunchforthesky was correct. You cannot prove a negative. It's a logical impossibility. It's why religion is based on faith, not facts. To argue for evidence of any religious matter is completely illogical, because religion, in the end, is a simple matter of faith, whether it's faith that there is a Heaven or that you can someday come back in x form or even that karma actually exists. There is no evidence at the current time to support any of these ideas. If a person chooses to believe in them, it inevitably has to be in some way based upon faith. From a strictly logic-based, evidence-founded standpoint, it makes sense to deny the existence of anything if there is nothing to support its existence.
And there is no evidence to provide the contrary. We are at a standstill and will remain there. End it.

[nellbelle]

And there is no evidence to provide the contrary. We are at a standstill and will remain there. End it.

That's the whole point. You cannot prove that something does not exist. It's impossible. That's the only point I was making. Hence why I opened with the part about how you cannot prove a negative.

On a note only related to the actual topic, I do find Buddhism to be much more balanced, as far as religions go. The core principles of what I understand about it make a fair amount of sense. I've never been remotely inclined to subscribe to any religion, but it tends to make much more sense to me than any others I've studied.

[Lueda Alia]

If I were to follow any religion, this would be the one.

[stendhal]

I think everyone needs to realize a few things... one, that only some sects of Buddhism teach reincarnation. So if that's the reason preventing you from delving further, keep looking.

Two, that the first noble truth isn't all humans suffer it's all life suffers. That includes animals. Someone mentioned desire, and that's only part of the first noble truth. Suffering involves attachments, illness, etc.

Also, Buddhism is not based on faith. Zen Buddhism actually has nothing to do with faith, hope, or even belief. It's about this moment and this moment only. Not about enlightenment, reincarnation, or anything like that.

If you're a fan of logic, there should be absolutely nothing wrong with the teachings of Zen Buddhism.

[loveisdead]

I think everyone needs to realize a few things... one, that only some sects of Buddhism teach reincarnation. So if that's the reason preventing you from delving further, keep looking.

Two, that the first noble truth isn't all humans suffer it's all life suffers. That includes animals. Someone mentioned desire, and that's only part of the first noble truth. Suffering involves attachments, illness, etc.

Also, Buddhism is not based on faith. Zen Buddhism actually has nothing to do with faith, hope, or even belief. It's about this moment and this moment only. Not about enlightenment, reincarnation, or anything like that.

If you're a fan of logic, there should be absolutely nothing wrong with the teachings of Zen Buddhism.
Good post, I totally agree with you.

[stendhal]

Buddhism is kinda meh. I wouldn't devote me life to searching for something that I know I'll never find.


I would assume you're talking about devoting your life to attaining enlightenment. In which case would tell you that enlightenment is not what Buddhism is about. At the risk of sounding corny, it's the journey, not the end.

Buddhism isn't a means to an end.

[andyissemicool]

Correct. That's our entire argument here. We cannot prove either one, but I refuse to count either of those things out.

So you're not counting out the possibility of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Russell's Teapot, or the Invisible Pink Unicorn, I presume?

[loveisdead]

So you're not counting out the possibility of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Russell's Teapot, or the Invisible Pink Unicorn, I presume?
Why should I? Can you prove to me they don't exist? Of course I don't think they do, but who am I to go telling people what to believe/not believe in without one ounce of proof to the contrary?

[Nevuk]

Buddhism is too friendly of a religion for me.

[loveisdead]

Buddhism is too friendly of a religion for me.
huh?

[stendhal]

No it says that humans suffer because of desire and the causes of that desire are essentially the same across all humans. I find that to be bullshit. I also think that the idea you can avoid this suffering is bullshit and that the idea that you should abandon desire completely runs at odds to the natural world and how man and other animals have come to be.



It's not about avoiding suffering. That would be ludicrous to believe and impossible to achieve. It's about coming to grips with the fact (something that Buddhism has that other "religions" find as a nuisance) that you are going to suffer. Hence "The first noble truth."

You can stub your toe, get way pissed off, jump around like an idiot, say "fuck" 80 times, get angry at your toe, get angry at yourself for stubbing your toe, get angry at why you initially moved in the direction that caused stubbing your toe, or curse your toe for existing... none of these will change the fact that it fucking hurts.

Buddhism teaches how stupid and arbitrary it truly is to get upset with the fact that you feel pain or 'suffering', as opposed to dealing with it.

[CaryGrant]

Dharma Bums, anyone?

[Nevuk]

huh?
It's too hopeful would be a better way of wording it. I want my religions more fatalistic, you're going to die, there is nothing you can do to change this, you will stay dead, and your life will have no meaning except for the one you assign it. That's my religion.

[stendhal]

It's too hopeful would be a better way of wording it. I want my religions more fatalistic, you're going to die, there is nothing you can do to change this, you will stay dead, and your life will have no meaning except for the one you assign it. That's my religion.


With many Buddhist sects, you die... and that's it. You don't even have a soul (hopeful?). You don't go to heaven, hell, our come back as a koala. You're just dead.

As far as the "meaning", it's up to whomever is doing the living. You find your own answers.

"Be ye lamps unto yourselves..." was the last thing Mr. Gautama (Buddha) said. Meaning, "find your own fuckin' answers."

Sounds as if you may like Buddhism more than you thought. haha

[stendhal]

Karma is dumb.



Why?

Most people think that Karma is some cosmic boomerang. That's dumb.

Karma is just cause and effect.

[Nevuk]

With many Buddhist sects, you die... and that's it. You don't even have a soul (hopeful?). You don't go to heaven, hell, our come back as a koala. You're just dead.

As far as the "meaning", it's up to whomever is doing the living. You find your own answers.

"Be ye lamps unto yourselves..." was the last thing Mr. Gautama (Buddha) said. Meaning, "find your own fuckin' answers."

Sounds as if you may like Buddhism more than you thought. haha
Yeah, I know there are different sects, and that's the one that appeals to me the most out of the major religions. However, I think it would still be a bad fit for me, as I once told someone at my high school when they told me to calm down "Being calm is bad." Which makes me a bad fit for meditation and most similar practices.

(And yet I perform lots of introspection and do hallucinogenic drugs. I'm probably just kidding myself or other people about the not enjoying being calm).

[stendhal]

Yeah, I know there are different sects, and that's the one that appeals to me the most out of the major religions. However, I think it would still be a bad fit for me, as I once told someone at my high school when they told me to calm down "Being calm is bad." Which makes me a bad fit for meditation and most similar practices.

(And yet I perform lots of introspection and do hallucinogenic drugs. I'm probably just kidding myself or other people about the not enjoying being calm).

No worries man... it's not for everyone, just like everything else.

Hell, I don't even know if it's for me. Just thought I'd put in my 2 cents.

[TK]

I've always wanted to learn more about Buddhism

[kshtoinks12]

I would assume you're talking about devoting your life to attaining enlightenment. In which case would tell you that enlightenment is not what Buddhism is about. At the risk of sounding corny, it's the journey, not the end.

Buddhism isn't a means to an end.
That's fine, but I wouldn't embark on a journey unless the end is within my life's grasp. That's just me though, I respect Buddhism as a lifestyle.

[Sic Transit Zeb]

The only superstition is reincarnation as far as I know. Why can't people implement every other part about it? I'm fascinated by the entire thing and can't fathom why this religion isn't more popular in western civilization.

because it's not a western religion. Also, back in the day if you tried to say you were a Buddhist, you would be looked down upon as an outsider, maybe even killed or ran out of town.

[ForeverDelayed]

You can stub your toe, get way pissed off, jump around like an idiot, say "fuck" 80 times, get angry at your toe, get angry at yourself for stubbing your toe, get angry at why you initially moved in the direction that caused stubbing your toe, or curse your toe for existing... none of these will change the fact that it fucking hurts.
This is brilliant, spot on.

I self identify as a Christian, but there's definitely a lot of Buddhist in me. And really when you look at their actual teachings and separate the people from the religions that grew up around them, Jesus and Buddha were totally on the same page about just about everything. Living Buddha Living Christ is one of the best books I've ever read. There's also a lot of talk lately about "the Jesus sutras" and the theory that Jesus studied in a Buddhist monestary during his "lost years". And the way I see it, Buddhism has quite a lot in common with Existentialism. If you're going to devote yourself to a person or an idealogy, you could do a whole lot worse than Buddha.

[Praetor]

The four truths are certainly interesting but I don't buy into karma/reincarnation/nirvana. Interesting to study and learn about but I don't think I would ever follow it.

[loveisdead]

The four truths are certainly interesting but I don't buy into karma/reincarnation/nirvana. Interesting to study and learn about but I don't think I would ever follow it.
I would argue that we've all achieved nirvana at some point, whether or not you believe in it in the buddhist sense or not.

[TJ Wells]

I firmly believe in the concept of reincarnation.
This is a very simplified response, but I really think it'd be the best way for it to be. As long as it was like in Defending Your Life, where you didn't remember your previous lives. Because, despite considering myself a Christian, the idea of even eternity in Heaven scares the hell out of me when I try to think about it. ETERNITY. Never-ending. Seriously, when I try to think about it, I start getting really anxious and my head hurts.

[sdbrown]

Did a search on it and didn't find anything. Why don't more people follow it? My philosophy class just touched on it and it seems to be by far the most logical religion I've encountered? All the election talk is hurting my brain so I'm changing it up.
I think that's why. If people went by what was logical I don't think they'd believe in god or religion.

Buddhism has always intrigued me, it's the one religion I wouldn't mind converting to if I want to for marriage purposes.

[Undue Noise]

I think that's why. If people went by what was logical I don't think they'd believe in god or religion.

Buddhism has always intrigued me, it's the one religion I wouldn't mind converting to if I want to for marriage purposes.
I agree with this. Religion isn't about logic or facts; otherwise people wouldn't be religious. It's about faith and belief, whereas Buddhism seems just more like a logical way to live your life. The absence of a God-like figure in their religion makes it seem more like a way of life than a belief in a higher power.