Home recording thread #183873 [Archive]

eraserhead

10/21/08, 07:04 PM

I'm really sorry to make another recording thread, I know there are a lot of them but I really want to do this right so I can get the best setup possible for my money. Here's the scenario:

Budget: $400
Recording: Vocals, acoustic guitar
I will be recording with my laptop.

So, what do I all need? From the other threads I've read, I know that I'm going to get an SM57 microphone for sure, it sounds like a good buy. Other than that, I'm a little fuzzy on what other equipment I need to get...I've seen the words "pre-amp" and "interface" thrown around but I'm really not sure what those are, haha. I don't want to just get a bunch of shit and then be totally clueless as to what it all is. So basically I need advice on what to buy, and basic information about what each component of the setup is for (besides the mic).

Once again, I apologize for another home recording thread, I know there's an abundance of them but I really want to do this right the first time and have no regrets later. thanks in advance!

OveriseFan

10/21/08, 07:06 PM

For just vocals and acoustic guitar - don't get an SM57. You'll want more warmth to your recordings with just those two instruments, so I'd recommend a compressor mic. You'll get a much better sound.

I'll find a decent interface and compressor for you soon (if someone doesn't beat me to it), and post it.

eraserhead

10/21/08, 07:19 PM

Thanks man!

P.S. Do you mean a condenser mic?

patrickhowell

10/21/08, 07:45 PM

eraserhead

10/21/08, 07:58 PM

Haha all that for under $400!? Sounds crazy

patrickhowell

10/21/08, 08:27 PM

Haha all that for under $400!? Sounds crazy

I don't think you're going to find a better deal than this:

PreSonus Audiobox USB Recording Package (http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/PreSonus-Audiobox-USB-Recording-Package?sku=243008)

That's $350 for everything I listed, minus the pop-filter and headphones. A pop filter should be around $15, and that will leave you $35 to find some decent headphones. You need some that will isolate the sound, so when you're recording vocals the mic won't pickup the playback... Most over-the-ear headphones work pretty well for that.

eraserhead

10/21/08, 08:37 PM

I don't think you're going to find a better deal than this:

PreSonus Audiobox USB Recording Package (http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/PreSonus-Audiobox-USB-Recording-Package?sku=243008)

That's $350 for everything I listed, minus the pop-filter and headphones. A pop filter should be around $15, and that will leave you $35 to find some decent headphones. You need some that will isolate the sound, so when you're recording vocals the mic won't pickup the playback... Most over-the-ear headphones work pretty well for that.
Is this legit? I'm very skeptical of bundle packages...

Tristan Needler

10/21/08, 08:54 PM

Is this legit? I'm very skeptical of bundle packages...
It's not going to be super high quality stuff for that price, but neither will things if you buy them separately. One great thing about it is that you seem to be getting things like the mic stand and cables for basically free when you usually would have to end up dropping $50+ on just one stand and one cable. It's the little things you don't think about that add up.

What are the chances that you'd be able to hold off and save maybe another $200?

What Patrick said is definitely right about what you want ideally, but if you go with the SM57, you can get away without the shock mount and pop filter. Also, you can mix on decent headphones if you're willing to spring for a nice pair (I like Sennheiser HD280 pros) although it's not ideal. It's what I do though since I can't afford monitors. The monitors in that package however probably won't turn out to be that much better than a $100 set of regular speakers.

Like James said, a condenser (not compressor haha) mic would sound better on vocals and acoustic, but an SM57 isn't terrible. I'll upload a song I'm doing now in probably a week so you can check out what kind of sound I get with it. It's okay for places where the acoustic is more of a background instrument. It's a less full, less defined, less warm sound. I think for you the condenser route would certainly yield a more pleasant sound if you only want acoustic with vocals.

Tristan Needler

10/21/08, 08:57 PM

As far as some of the questions you asked, a preamp is a piece of equipment that takes an weak audio signal (from a mic, DI guitar, etc.) and boosts it to a usable level. An interface is a soundcard. It converts the audio from the analog signal from your mics and turns them into digital ones that your computer can work with. They almost all come with preamps (although usually not that nice, but that's what you're going to get at that price).

What kind of laptop do you use? How powerful is it? Do you have USB and firewire ports?

eraserhead

10/21/08, 09:02 PM

What are the chances that you'd be able to hold off and save maybe another $200?
I could maybe get maybe another $100...200 is a stretch.

What kind of laptop do you use? How powerful is it? Do you have USB and firewire ports?
It's a horrible off-brand laptop, 1.7 Ghz, 500MB RAM. It has 3 USB ports, no Firewire. It's a piece of shit basically.

Tristan Needler

10/21/08, 09:05 PM

The Presonus Firebox (http://www.zzounds.com/item--PRSFIREBOX) is a great, highly recommended interface that will last you a very long time (if you have firewire). It has a lot more than you need, but it's also quite a bit higher quality. $300 for it and a decent pair of headphones, as well as the bundled software.

After that, you'd probably be spending about $100 on a decent condenser mic, this one (http://www.zzounds.com/item--STUB1) is well recommended, then another $75 on a boom stand, cable, pop filter, and shockmount.

That puts you about $75 dollars over (before tax). I don't know if you can swing it, but that would be a better setup in my opinion. You can eventually get some decent monitors when you have the money rather than having a cheap set of monitors and a not as great interface that you'll end up wanting to upgrade.

Tristan Needler

10/21/08, 09:08 PM

I could maybe get maybe another $100...200 is a stretch.

It's a horrible off-brand laptop, 1.7 Ghz, 500MB RAM. It has 3 USB ports, no Firewire. It's a piece of shit basically.
Ah. I hate that the Firebox is firewire only. It's such a good deal. Hmm.

You're laptop will be okay I think. Mine has pretty similar stats and I do alright.

Take a look around this site (http://www.tweakheadz.com/soundcards_for_the_home_studio.htm) (especially that page). First you'll have even more questions, but it will help you know exactly what you want and what you need so it can narrow your search a little.

Tristan Needler

10/21/08, 09:14 PM

http://www.emu.com/products/product.asp?category=610&subcategory=611&product=17511

That guy is pretty decent. It only $150 but it has two mic pres with phantom power (which you need for a condenser mic). It's the step up from what I use, which has only one pre and no phantom power, som I'm stuck with the dynamic mics unless I buy another interface.

It's not pro level stuff (probably on par with the interface Patric posted, although that's just a guess) but I think it would get you by just fine. And it would be cheaper than the Firebox so maybe you could splurge on a nicer mic, but you'd have to get a decent pair of headphone or monitors with that too.

Bah, it's hard to find something really good in that price range. Patrick's suggestion is probably the best deal.

screamoutmyname

10/21/08, 09:15 PM

Ideally, what you want is:

1) Multi-Track recording software
2) FireWire or USB Interface with a good preamp
3) Condenser Microphone
4) Microphone Stand
5) Microphone Cable
6) Microphone Shockmount
7) Microphone Pop Filter
8) Studio Monitors
9) Nice Headphones

Give me a few minutes, and I'll see if I can get a decent setup together in your price range...
and i believe that covers it all haha

i recently got a usb interface, condenser mic, stand, and another decent mic for acoustic kinda recording stuff...

patrickhowell

10/21/08, 09:27 PM

Is this legit? I'm very skeptical of bundle packages...

I'm kind of skeptical about how good the speakers will sound, but most reviews are really positive. Actually, one review even recommended using them alongside a pair of high-end monitors in a studio because their sound is so clear... Other than the speakers, it's definitely a good deal. Just the Mic, Monitors, and Interface would cost you $400 if you bought them separately. So you're basically getting $50 off, plus free stands and cables like Tristan said. Also, I was specifically going to rec that mic and interface before I found that package, because I think they're really the best sounding beginner-level options available.

They almost all come with preamps (although usually not that nice, but that's what you're going to get at that price).

Presonus puts pretty good sounding preamps in their interfaces, that's why I rec'd that one over the other cheap options out there.

eraserhead

10/21/08, 09:42 PM

Oh false alarm, I do have Firewire. Sweet.

EDIT: Oh also another kind of big concern I just realized...I live in a college dorm, where the hell am I going to record? hahahaa.

Tristan Needler

10/21/08, 09:50 PM

Looking at the stats, the Audiobox looks really good. Definitely better pres than the EMU I posted. Plus it has the MIDI i/o too.

The only drawbacks that I can see is that you can only record at 44.1 or 48 khz, which isn't a big deal, I only record at 44.1 and I have the option to go higher, so that's basically a non-issue. The other would be that it doesn't seem to have direct monitoring, which is when you get to listen to your signal while you are recording it before it goes into your computer so you don't get latency problems, which is when you're audio is delayed because it has to go all the way through your computer, which can be a problem with a lower end PC. That would be a problem for me, as I use the direct monitoring all the time. Although when I don't use it, I've never noticed any latency at all, so it's hard to say wether that would be an issue for you.

Tristan Needler

10/21/08, 09:51 PM

Oh false alarm, I do have Firewire. Sweet.

EDIT: Oh also another kind of big concern I just realized...I live in a college dorm, where the hell am I going to record? hahahaa.
You can record in your room if you want, but it won't be too great for mixing, and you might get some funky reverberations, depending what your walls are made out of. Throwing blankets up on the walls can help. Noise from other rooms will be an issue though.

That might be a good case for the SM57... it's not as sensitive and won't record as much off axis noise (i.e. stuff it's not pointing at). But I'd still go with a condenser. You just want to hope for quiet times. And hopefully you're not embarrassed to sing out loud in your dorm haha.

patrickhowell

10/21/08, 09:58 PM

Oh false alarm, I do have Firewire. Sweet.

EDIT: Oh also another kind of big concern I just realized...I live in a college dorm, where the hell am I going to record? hahahaa.

FireWire interfaces are usually more expensive, but because FW is less CPU intensive than USB you will get less latency. And you only have 512MB of RAM? I would definitely recommend upgrading, because RAM is fairly cheap these days... I would recommend 1 or 2 GB, it will make your computer seem so much faster for everything and make recording much smoother.

Also, I used to record stuff all the time in my dorm... Actually I made some decent money recording all the wannabe singer-songwriters on my hall...

patrickhowell

10/21/08, 10:02 PM

The other would be that it doesn't seem to have direct monitoring...

The AudioBox has direct monitoring, and a "Mixer" knob to blend the playback with the signal direct from the inputs. Also, the headphone volume goes to 11. From the specs, the preamps aren't quite as nice as the FireBox, but Presonus is generally known for having the best pres in every price range.

http://www.presonus.com/media/diagrams/AudioBox_USB-Hookup.pdf

eraserhead

10/21/08, 10:07 PM

Tristan Needler

10/21/08, 10:24 PM

The AudioBox has direct monitoring, and a "Mixer" knob to blend the playback with the signal direct from the inputs. Also, the headphone volume goes to 11. From the specs, the preamps aren't quite as nice as the FireBox, but Presonus is generally known for having the best pres in every price range.

http://www.presonus.com/media/diagrams/AudioBox_USB-Hookup.pdfThat's good then. I couldn't see anything written about direct monitoring on their site or Musician's Friend.

Hmmm, so you guys are saying the PreSonus bundle is the best idea? I'm down with that, like you said it'll save me money on the mic stand/cables/shockmount/pop filter...that leaves me with, let's say $100 leftover (I could scrounge it).What should I get with that, headphones or another mic? I don't have a really good pair of headphones that could be used for mixing, but a condenser mic or an SM57 don't sound like too bad of ideas either.

(btw thanks a ton guys, this is awesome advice and i really appreciate it)Maybe you could get another of that same mic and then you could record some nice stereo acoustic guitar. A nice pair of headphones would be good though, especially as a second reference since your monitors won't be super accurate and your room won't sound incredible either.

patrickhowell

10/21/08, 10:26 PM

Hmmm, so you guys are saying the PreSonus bundle is the best idea? I'm down with that, like you said it'll save me money on the mic stand/cables/shockmount/pop filter...that leaves me with, let's say $100 leftover (I could scrounge it).What should I get with that, headphones or another mic? I don't have a really good pair of headphones that could be used for mixing, but a condenser mic or an SM57 don't sound like too bad of ideas either.

(btw thanks a ton guys, this is awesome advice and i really appreciate it)

That pack doesn't come with a pop filter, so you will need one of those for vocals ($15), then spend a decent amount on nice sounding headphones. You will also want to get some sort of foam to put between your speakers and your desk, to isolate the sound, and something to put on your walls to cancel out reverb in your room... but you can get crafty with that.

Tristan Needler

10/21/08, 10:31 PM

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=731207&content=songinfo&songID=6167768

Forgot I had some covers up. That's the kind of sound I get with an SM57 (click the hi-fi version) on guitar and vocals. Excuse my poor singing haha. Not great. And that's with the help of eq. It sounds less warm without.

eraserhead

10/21/08, 10:45 PM

That pack doesn't come with a pop filter, so you will need one of those for vocals ($15), then spend a decent amount on nice sounding headphones. You will also want to get some sort of foam to put between your speakers and your desk, to isolate the sound, and something to put on your walls to cancel out reverb in your room... but you can get crafty with that.
Hmm ok...man I wish I just had a room I could do this in, as it stands right now I'm going to have to be setting up/taking down equipment constantly, not to mention I'm going to have to kick my roommate out all the time. I guess I'll just have to deal with it.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=731207&content=songinfo&songID=6167768

Forgot I had some covers up. That's the kind of sound I get with an SM57 (click the hi-fi version) on guitar and vocals. Excuse my poor singing haha. Not great. And that's with the help of eq. It sounds less warm without.
That sounds great. I'd be more than happy with sound quality like that. I actually really like the "lo-fi" kind of sound...like Elliott Smith's self-titled or Roman Candle. I mean obviously really polished stuff sounds more professional but I'm going to need a while to reach that point anyways.

ACA

10/22/08, 06:20 AM

I need to make a thread will details about this..I feel like I've explained this many times :)

Should give me something to do for a while.. I'll make it pretty with links and everything.

ACA

10/22/08, 06:24 AM

Also, don't skimp on the pop filter. I bought a shitty one for $20 (the cheapest Guitar Center had) -- I'll get the model number when I get home -- and it doesn't clamp properly to my stand. It's a real piece of shit.

-ACA

patrickhowell

10/22/08, 07:41 AM

ACA

10/22/08, 09:16 AM

Yeah, you should get one that clamps with a screw, not a spring.

The clamps aren't the issue -- making sure the coil in the filter doesn't fall apart/stop holding is the real issue.

theguy77

10/22/08, 11:32 AM

Ideally, what you want is:

1) Multi-Track recording software
2) FireWire or USB Interface with a good preamp
3) Condenser Microphone
4) Microphone Stand
5) Microphone Cable
6) Microphone Shockmount
7) Microphone Pop Filter
8) Studio Monitors
9) Nice Headphones

Give me a few minutes, and I'll see if I can get a decent setup together in your price range...

a little over the top to get both of these when you're just starting out recording? i would say the headphones are all you need to start

acor

10/22/08, 05:02 PM

Dude with that budget get a condenser mic, and a tube pre-amp in your chain. Make sure the mixer or whatever other preamp you are using has phantom power

eraserhead

10/22/08, 05:31 PM

Dude with that budget get a condenser mic, and a tube pre-amp in your chain. Make sure the mixer or whatever other preamp you are using has phantom power
This part may as well be in a different language...lol

acor

10/22/08, 05:43 PM

This part may as well be in a different language...lol

lol sorry. A pre-amp can be a mixer or a separate component you can plug into.

So let me re-phase it, I would recommend getting a "condenser microphone" (basically the best mic you canget for recording vocals and acoustic guitar in my opinnion).

This type of microphone requires whatever you plug it into to have "phantom power", which is basically a way to power the mic. So in other words if you would like to plug it into a mixer make sure that the mixer is labeled as having "phantom power."

Seperately I would recomend getting a "tube pre-amp" (with phatom power of course). This is just a seperate little box (or whatever it's shaped like) that you you plug into that "warms" up the vocals (maybe even the guitar too, I'm not sure about that).

So here's a possible set up: condessor microphone plugged into a tube pre-amp (with phantom power), then plugged into a mixer, which is plugged into your computer.

mic->tube pre-amp->mixer->computer

Tristan Needler

10/22/08, 05:48 PM

lol sorry. A pre-amp can be a mixer or a separate component you can plug into.

So let me re-phase it, I would recommend getting a "condenser microphone" (basically the best mic you canget for recording vocals and acoustic guitar in my opinnion).

This type of microphone requires whatever you plug it into to have "phantom power", which is basically a way to power the mic. So in other words if you would like to plug it into a mixer make sure that the mixer is labeled as having "phantom power."

Seperately I would recomend getting a "tube pre-amp" (with phatom power of course). This is just a seperate little box (or whatever it's shaped like) that you you plug into that "warms" up the vocals (maybe even the guitar too, I'm not sure about that).

So here's a possible set up: condessor microphone plugged into a tube pre-amp (with phantom power), then plugged into a mixer, which is plugged into your computer.

mic->tube pre-amp->mixer->computer
The problem with that is that you can't plug a mixer straight into your computer without an interface like the one already recommended to him, unless you get a mixer/interface combo type deal, but to get the same quality he'll be getting with Patrick's setup he'll have to spend a lot more. Not to mention a separate tube preamp, which isn't really necessary at this point. There's tons of fantastic solid state preamps, but to get a pre that's worth the upgrade (from the built in pres on an interface or mixer) you're going to be spending $500+ on the preamp. That's for a solid state pre, not a tube pre.

acor

10/22/08, 05:52 PM

The problem with that is that you can't plug a mixer straight into your computer without an interface like the one already recommended to him, unless you get a mixer/interface combo type deal, but to get the same quality he'll be getting with Patrick's setup he'll have to spend a lot more. Not to mention a separate tube preamp, which isn't really necessary at this point. There's tons of fantastic solid state preamps, but to get a pre that's worth the upgrade (from the built in pres on an interface or mixer) you're going to be spending $500+ on the preamp. That's for a solid state pre, not a tube pre.

That's actually not correct, you can plug a mixer into your computer without a interface, and tube pre's are cheap (like 50 bucks) this guy has a budget that can more than handle that.

The amount of quality he's going to get out of a tube pre is more than going to cover the 50 dollar cost. Especially if the pre-amps on the mixer aren't that great to begin with.

Tristan Needler

10/22/08, 05:56 PM

That's actually not correct, you can plug a mixer into your computer without a interface, and tube pre's are cheap (like 50 bucks) this guy has a budget that can more than handle that.

The amount of quality he's going to get out of a tube pre is more than going to cover the 50 dollar cost. Especially if the pre-amps on the mixer aren't that great to begin with.
For starters, I think he wanted a mixerless set up, and no, you can't just plug a mixer straight into a computer. Where are you going to plug it in? You can't just plug it into the 1/8" stereo jack on a computer, that would sound like shit, even if the mixer did have a stereo out jack. Any outboard pre that he's going to get isn't going to be as good as the pres on the Audiobox unless he's buying an FMR RNP for $500.

OveriseFan

10/22/08, 06:19 PM

Ugh. Yeah, I meant condenser. I was tired and doing homework (or not doing homework, really), which was why I didn't even spend the time to find the mic/interface for him.

Looks like you more knowledgeable guys have taken care of him anyway. Haha. What a great forum.

eraserhead

10/22/08, 09:01 PM

yeah seriously, thank you so much for all this guys, especially Tristan and patrick, I really appreciate it. you're saving a ton of time and money.

As it stands right now I'm leaning toward getting the PreSonus Audiobox bundle, unless someone can make a solid case against it, or for something else. I won't be making the actual purchase for a while, so feel free to continue discussing budget recording setups, i'm always open to new ideas.

acor

10/22/08, 09:47 PM

For starters, I think he wanted a mixerless set up, and no, you can't just plug a mixer straight into a computer. Where are you going to plug it in? You can't just plug it into the 1/8" stereo jack on a computer, that would sound like shit, even if the mixer did have a stereo out jack. Any outboard pre that he's going to get isn't going to be as good as the pres on the Audiobox unless he's buying an FMR RNP for $500.

I don't mean disrespect but I've actually plugged my mixer into the mic jack on my computer with an 1/8th inch converter and it sounds about 75% as good as the Digidesign 003 with a firewire connection to a Mac (about a 3,000 dollar setup all told, just the mixer and computer) my band uses to record. I can send you what I did and I'm willing to bet you good money that it doesn't sound even remotely close to "shit"

So I don't know where you are getting your information from but it's just wrong. I don't mean anything personal by any of this but I've done this myself and I have proof of it so I don't see how there can even be a debate.

I mean even the recordings I did with my solid state amp sound good, I have no idea where you've gotten this information from

Tristan Needler

10/22/08, 10:01 PM

I don't mean disrespect but I've actually plugged my mixer into the mic jack on my computer with an 1/8th inch converter and it sounds about 75% as good as the Digidesign 003 with a firewire connection to a Mac (about a 3,000 dollar setup all told, just the mixer and computer) my band uses to record. I can send you what I did and I'm willing to bet you good money that it doesn't sound even remotely close to "shit"

So I don't know where you are getting your information from but it's just wrong. I don't mean anything personal by any of this but I've done this myself and I have proof of it so I don't see how there can even be a debate.

I mean even the recordings I did with my solid state amp sound good, I have no idea where you've gotten this information from
I post on a forum with professional audio engineers, mastering engineers, and talk with friends of mine who work in the same fields. Every bit of advice I've ever read goes against what you're saying. I'm sure it works, but the soundcard in a computer (especially a laptop) can't convert audio at a very high quality.

http://www.tweakheadz.com/images/img11.jpg

That's an image of a basic setup for recording audio and midi with a mixer. Note the interface between the mixer and the computer. I've never seen a recommendation for doing it without an interface.

Now that I think more about it, in that case there's not really a point in having a mixer unless your recording live to one stereo track. For multi-track recording you'd have to record each track separately anyway, so there's not too much of a reason for the mixer without a multi-input interface, unless you're recording live or recording drums.

acor

10/22/08, 10:07 PM

I post on a forum with professional audio engineers, mastering engineers, and talk with friends of mine who work in the same fields. Every bit of advice I've ever read goes against what you're saying. I'm sure it works, but the soundcard in a computer (especially a laptop) can't convert audio at a very high quality.

http://www.tweakheadz.com/images/img11.jpg
That's an image of a basic setup for recording audio and midi with a mixer. Note the interface between the mixer and the computer. I've never seen a recommendation for doing it without an interface.

Now that I think more about it, in that case there's not really a point in having a mixer unless your recording live to one stereo track. For multi-track recording you'd have to record each track separately anyway, so there's not too much of a reason for the mixer without a multi-input interface, unless you're recording live or recording drums.

It says OR sound card

I have a sound card, maybe that's what's confusing you? It doesn't even have to be a decent one (it helps for sure) but my brother has a really old sound card and he makes great recordings all the time and he does the exact same thing.

I have no idea why professionals wouldn't see this as a way to do it when it logically makes sense, infact its even on the chart...

Tristan Needler

10/22/08, 10:19 PM

It says OR sound card

I have a sound card, maybe that's what's confusing you? It doesn't even have to be a decent one (it helps for sure) but my brother has a really old sound card and he makes great recordings all the time and he does the exact same thing.

I have no idea why professionals wouldn't see this as a way to do it when it logically makes sense, infact its even on the chart...
A audio interface is a soundcard. The difference is that it has multiple ins/outs, better quality A/D D/A conversion, and often includes mic pres. Yeah it will work with an onboard or integrated soundcard, I just wouldn't recommend doing that, as I don't see much of a point, besides live recordings and drums.

acor

10/22/08, 10:32 PM

A audio interface is a soundcard. The difference is that it has multiple ins/outs, better quality A/D D/A conversion, and often includes mic pres. Yeah it will work with an onboard or integrated soundcard, I just wouldn't recommend doing that, as I don't see much of a point, besides live recordings and drums.

I don't see why you wouldn't do it if you don't already have another interface. Sure it's not the best set up money can buy, but with the recordings I've made I've been very happy with it.

And its not like I don't know what a good sound actually sounds like. I've worked with near professional interfaces and know what a top-of the line interface is going to do for you.

I'm not sure why you would say "I wouldn't recommend it" when I'm assuming you haven't actually done it yourself, please correct me if I'm wrong. But its just not correct to say that you can't get a good or even a great recording by doing it this way.

acor

10/22/08, 11:10 PM

Not to mention this is a super cheap set up. Tube pre's are around $50, and you don't even need a mixer. 1/8th inch converter is $4.

And the condenser mic, which is what you are going to want no matter what the exact set up is, let's say 170ish (depends on the quality you want of course.)

So all told its $54 without the mic. $224ish with the mic. Well under budget. This gives you a large amount of room to get a really quality mic and even a higher end tube pre amp if you wanted,

You could even spring for a decent sound card (if its a laptop you can get an external card, or if your laptop has an express or PCMCI slot you can get an internal one) and that's something you can use not only for music but for improving the overall sound on your laptop by a huge amount.

But again, you don't have to have a good sound card, my brother does great with the old one I put in his.

patrickhowell

10/23/08, 01:46 AM

Not to mention this is a super cheap set up. Tube pre's are around $50, and you don't even need a mixer. 1/8th inch converter is $4.

The cheapest legitimate tube preamp I've ever seen is the Groove Tubes "The Brick" at $400. The Electro-Harmonix 12AY7 kind of comes close, and that's still $190. Anything cheaper than that uses a starved plate design that doesn't actually use the tubes. They run at a fraction of actual rail voltage - usually around 30 volts instead of the ~300 volts or so required for the tube. That EHX pre is still only running at 200v, but that's much closer than It's just a gimmick, and the tube isn't "warming up" your sound at all. If you open up cheap "tube" preamps like that, they usually have a lamp behind the tube to simulate the glow of a fully powered tube.

He would be MUCH better off getting an interface with quality solid-state preamps and a solid A/D converter like the PreSonus that I recommended than running one of those cheap preamps into the built-in sound card on his laptop.

theguy77

10/23/08, 10:29 AM

acor

10/23/08, 10:40 AM

The cheapest legitimate tube preamp I've ever seen is the Groove Tubes "The Brick" at $400. The Electro-Harmonix 12AY7 kind of comes close, and that's still $190. Anything cheaper than that uses a starved plate design that doesn't actually use the tubes. They run at a fraction of actual rail voltage - usually around 30 volts instead of the ~300 volts or so required for the tube. That EHX pre is still only running at 200v, but that's much closer than It's just a gimmick, and the tube isn't "warming up" your sound at all. If you open up cheap "tube" preamps like that, they usually have a lamp behind the tube to simulate the glow of a fully powered tube.

He would be MUCH better off getting an interface with quality solid-state preamps and a solid A/D converter like the PreSonus that I recommended than running one of those cheap preamps into the built-in sound card on his laptop.

He could afford a legitimate one, did you see his budget? 190 is in the range, just my two cents

acor

10/23/08, 10:43 AM

ive used my computer's sound card in recording when i first started. of course i was satisfied with it at the time, all i really wanted was to get some demos down so i would have an easier time adding to my song ideas, but if you have even moderate experience with home recording i dont know how you could continue to be satisfied with any built in computer souncard. so much more definition and life is achieved out of any solid state modeling interface/preamp, it's much more true to the sound of what you record.

All I have to say is comparing the sounds I've gotten to a $2,000 board I've been very impressed.

By the way a sound card is "solid state", it's not modeling the sound of say an amplifier or a guitar but digital is digital. What matters is what you are puting into it first and foremost. Any modeling can't replicate a good sound and set up

Tristan Needler

10/23/08, 10:48 AM

The majority of laptops don't even have a sound card, it's just "integrated sound" which is just another chip on the motherboard. I can see a PC with an actual dedicated sound card doing slightly better, but not much. Even high end sound cards like creative sound blaster cards that are marketed as "sound cards" aren't designed to record audio and won't do a great job of converting an analog signal to a digital one. Even pretty basic audio interfaces (which like I said, is just a sound card with different features aimed at a different market) are going to have better signal conversion on the way in than even most high end sound cards.

I know the mixer straight-to-computer way would work, he would just get much better mixes with the Audiobox package. Any benefit of an outboard preamp would be significantly reduced by sending it through the "preamp" of the mic-in in a soundcard. That's one of the main reasons I haven't bought an outboard preamp... because I can't bypass the built in pres on my interface so it would be for the most part useless.

Tristan Needler

10/23/08, 11:12 AM

All I have to say is comparing the sounds I've gotten to a $2,000 board I've been very impressed.

By the way a sound card is "solid state", it's not modeling the sound of say an amplifier or a guitar but digital is digital. What matters is what you are puting into it first and foremost. Any modeling can't replicate a good sound and set up
We're not trying to knock you or anything, just educating a bit, I suppose. I don't really want to use the word educate because it can sound condescending, but I don't mean it that way.

I'm sure you get good enough sounds out of your setup, and depending on the room you record/monitor in, your recording techniques like mic placement and mixing techniques, I'm sure you can get better sounds out of it than some people get out of interface-centered setups. But I'd guarantee you that if you recorded your songs on that Audiobox bundle with your same mixing and mic placements and whatnot, they'd come out higher quality than the setup you're telling us about.

And about solid state being digital and not being able to reproduce 'analog quality' sound; that's just not right.

Solid state doesn't mean digital, the signal in a solid state preamp like the FRM RNP isn't converted to digital than back to analog. It's analog the whole way through. The signal is simply processed by different means. Instead of flowing through a tube, it flows through capacitors and whatnot.

patrickhowell

10/23/08, 11:19 AM

He could afford a legitimate one, did you see his budget? 190 is in the range, just my two cents

That's still a big compromise, though. Running the plates at 200 volts is still well below spec, and the A/D converters in the sound card will still be sub-par for recording.

The majority of laptops don't even have a sound card, it's just "integrated sound" which is just another chip on the motherboard...

I know the mixer straight-to-computer way would work, he would just get much better mixes with the Audiobox package.

Exactly. Better A/D converters are a huge deal.

We're not trying to knock you or anything...

Yeah, we're just trying to make sure he gets the best setup he can within his budget.

Instead of flowing through a tube, it flows through capacitors and whatnot.

Not totally relevant to the conversation, but it's transistors not capacitors that take the place of vacuum tubes in a solid state amplifier. Also, you're right - solid state preamps are still analog devices.

Tristan Needler

10/23/08, 12:08 PM

Heh, yeah I wasn't sure what the exact components were.

eraserhead

11/03/08, 05:23 PM

Well bad news guys, I'm going to have to postpone this plan because instead of making $380 like I was supposed to, I'm now only making $100. So now I'm going to have to wait until Christmas to buy all the gear. :-(

SkateFirm21

11/16/08, 08:24 PM

i just use a condenser mic to record acoustic stuff, it works well.

YouAteMyDog182

11/23/08, 12:52 PM

Under 400..
Hm.
Well, I hate using computer based programs half the time so I bought a Boss Br-600 recorder for 350, and wow, its the best thing ever.
Its an 8 track, but its so amazingly simple and amazing quality.
I found for vocals and recording acoustic that my Marshall MXL2003 condenser mic is pure magic.
It set me back 170 bucks and i just went overy our budget, but its still awesome.

I'm sure i didnt help you at all, but I thought I'd mention the Boss-Br 600 or 1600 for that matter ( i think its 1600).
Best investment ever!

eurotechniksE36

11/28/08, 10:31 AM

I think I'm going to start recording... I see no reason why I shouldn't be working on music with how much I have always loved it so...

I've read part of this thread but I'm capable of doing at home recording I'd suppose. I don't know what software to run on my laptop. I have a Macbook Pro and would also like some software that is good/efficient/semi-easy to mix with. Garage band blows for mixing, I find it really limits what I'm capable of doing with different sounds.

Ideally I'm going to be doing vocals personally and producing/mixing for my friends. So they will take advantage of whatever I have.

I have no clue if it matters but the sound we are going for would be Scary Kids/ Attack! Attack!. My budget is mid-high ($1000) but I'm completely new so yea...

Also, if you could point me in the direction of a website that has a FAQ or write-ups for noobs on how to's for recording and mixing I'd greatly appreciate it.

Tristan Needler

11/28/08, 10:50 AM