ANOTHER school shooting

[richter915]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050322/ap_on_re_us/school_shooting

wonder how all the pro-guns activists will react to this....probably something like this:

"well if the kids who were being attacked had guns too, it woulda made the situation safer"

this is fucking disgusting...second time in 18 months in minnesota.

Fuck ur right to bear arms.

[SC0926]

yeah this is damn crazy. sooo many random shootings in the US lately.....nuts. what the hell is going on in this damn world.

[turtlefootrx]

i saw something on 60 minutes last night about how easy it is to not only buy ANY type of gun in the U.S. but how easy it is to ship them out of the country if you wanted to.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/18/60minutes/main681562.shtml

its really sad that these killing sprees are so common now. but i doubt anybody will ever do a damn thing about it. we always tend to shrug them off.

[EnderDove]

Im not saying that the ability to get guns isnt to blame, but dont forget that im sure this kid was bullied and picked on by other kids. This is a real problem that the blame never gets placed on, im positive some football players, cheerleaders or any other "popular" kids made fun of him and everyone will say he's different. Now I could be wrong, but this is always the case in these shootings.

This mostly reminds me of Kip Kinkle, who killed his parents and then went to school killing several people, although he is still alive.

If fucking kids would learn to treat each other better then maybe terrible things like this wouldnt be running ranpant.

[turtlefootrx]

Im not saying that the ability to get guns isnt to blame, but dont forget that im sure this kid was bullied and picked on by other kids. This is a real problem that the blame never gets placed on, im positive some football players, cheerleaders or any other "popular" kids made fun of him and everyone will say he's different. Now I could be wrong, but this is always the case in these shootings.

This mostly reminds me of Kip Kinkle, who killed his parents and then went to school killing several people, although he is still alive.

If fucking kids would learn to treat each other better then maybe terrible things like this wouldnt be running ranpant.

i agree. high school is such a fucking popularity contest that it makes me sick. but at the same time, you cant expect everyone to be nice to you either. everyone really just needs to learn how to jab back with words rather than violence. im glad i dont have to deal with that crap anymore.

[The Gray Ghost]

It's obviously (insert movie, video game, and or musical aritst here)'s fault.

[EnderDove]

i agree. high school is such a fucking popularity contest that it makes me sick. but at the same time, you cant expect everyone to be nice to you either. everyone really just needs to learn how to jab back with words rather than violence. im glad i dont have to deal with that crap anymore.
Im also glad I dont have to deal with highschool anymore, although I was never picked on or anything like that, although I guess I was "different". But schools REALLY need to look into cracking down on harrassment and other forms of verbal abuse, until something is attempted to be done with that there isnt a end to violence in schools.

[turtlefootrx]

that would never happen at my old school. they practicly encouraged it. i remember one time a bunch of the 'preps' were picking on this goth kid in the hallway. and my assistant principal stopped for a minute, just long enough to tell the kid he dressed funny. then he walked away.

that assistant principal is now the principal there.

[FinchBulldog2]

That sucks tho...It's too bad that stuff happens.

[kchubb]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050322/ap_on_re_us/school_shooting

wonder how all the pro-guns activists will react to this....probably something like this:

"well if the kids who were being attacked had guns too, it woulda made the situation safer"

this is fucking disgusting...second time in 18 months in minnesota.

Fuck ur right to bear arms.

Guns save more lives a year than they cause...

[apoemtothedead]

Guns save more lives a year than they cause...

Guns cause lives?

Well I guess if your weapon goes off prematurely, but thats another story.

[Alex Djaferis]

i just showed that link to people at work. they all said "only in america". its sad that the world view is slipping to say things like that.

[punklet2101]

Yeah.. I saw that this morning. That's terrible

[punkpixie]

Yeah.. I saw that this morning. That's terrible

Me too, It was on the news right when I woke up. I can't believe this has happened again. I feel really sorry for you guys over there, kids in some schools not feeling safe there. That sucks....

[Alex Djaferis]

Me too, It was on the news right when I woke up. I can't believe this has happened again. I feel really sorry for you guys over there, kids in some schools not feeling safe there. That sucks....

yeah its horrible. I would be scared to send off my kids to school.

[hXc_pwnage]

I hate highschool. It's such crap.

This is horrible.

[Shoes]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050322/ap_on_re_us/school_shooting

wonder how all the pro-guns activists will react to this....probably something like this:

"well if the kids who were being attacked had guns too, it woulda made the situation safer"

this is fucking disgusting...second time in 18 months in minnesota.

Fuck ur right to bear arms.

This is awful, I agree fuck your right to bear arms

[LostInTheCrowd]

Its disturbing that this kid killed his grand parents then went to school and while shooting people I read reports he was waving and smiling. This didn't even seem like big news here. I didn't even here about it till like last night at 11 on the local news. Usually they have breaking news on these things.

[richter915]

Im not saying that the ability to get guns isnt to blame, but dont forget that im sure this kid was bullied and picked on by other kids. This is a real problem that the blame never gets placed on, im positive some football players, cheerleaders or any other "popular" kids made fun of him and everyone will say he's different. Now I could be wrong, but this is always the case in these shootings.

This mostly reminds me of Kip Kinkle, who killed his parents and then went to school killing several people, although he is still alive.

If fucking kids would learn to treat each other better then maybe terrible things like this wouldnt be running ranpant.
u have a point but it's real real weak one. People do get picked on...it IS part of life...I've been picked on on numerous occassions but I learned ways to deal with it and I eventually had a good understanding with all the "jocks, preps and cheerleaders". They weren't on my good side, but they weren't on my bad either...but maybe it's just that the HS I went to was so mixed...no one could really point out the "freaks" and the "jocks" cause we had "jocks" hanging out with "freaks" who dated "cheerleaders" and "preps"...

but that's not my main point...the main point is...should violence be the answer? Some guy picks on you...you go bring a gun to school and blow his brains out? There's no logic in that...you go home, get ur anger out by pumping iron or doing pushups...get big...and u won't be fucked with...that's what I did too...I understand it can hit home psychologically but getting a gun and killing ur classmates and then urself...what good is that? I think that not only should schools crack down on harrassment and bullying, but they should also learn to help those kids who are about to go over the top so that they can avoid a massacre like this.

and to those of you who wonder why our society is becoming so violent...just turn on the TV...see what the US is doing in the world...we get punched in the face (9/11)...so we go and kill thousands on the claim that they might do it again...even though we were wrong...we're still killing. When your president sees and unjust war as the solution...it might make some people not value human life. It might be a stretch but I think there's a definite correlation.

[Cal Smith]

i saw something on 60 minutes last night about how easy it is to not only buy ANY type of gun in the U.S. but how easy it is to ship them out of the country if you wanted to.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/18/60minutes/main681562.shtml

its really sad that these killing sprees are so common now. but i doubt anybody will ever do a damn thing about it. we always tend to shrug them off.

that's the problem

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050322/ap_on_re_us/school_shooting

wonder how all the pro-guns activists will react to this....probably something like this:

"well if the kids who were being attacked had guns too, it woulda made the situation safer"

this is fucking disgusting...second time in 18 months in minnesota.

Fuck ur right to bear arms.

And perhaps because we have so many drunk driving accidents and car accidents we should ban either alcohol, driving, or both?

[FinchBulldog2]

It's obviously (insert movie, video game, and or musical aritst here)'s fault.
haha.

[Rebs]

the innocence of society, especially in young people (teenagers mostly) has been lost. we've grown up with the television constantly showing us murders and killing sprees, crime shows that show past rapes, beatings, and murders. music is constantly depicting the "hood" and killing eachother, gangs...etc.

the way that we have grown up has made us insensitive to death. we aren't really shocked by murder anymore. its all over the media, its as if its not a big deal.

[siberianxkiss]

kids have always been picked on in schools, during our parents, even our grandparents time. our generation needs some thicker skin.

[TheYrHeaRtLesS]

Me too, It was on the news right when I woke up. I can't believe this has happened again. I feel really sorry for you guys over there, kids in some schools not feeling safe there. That sucks....
same thing with me, i seen it as soon as i woke up ..except i got up and pissed all over my tv because its annoying, i wish that douche bag didnt kill himself so they could put him in a crowded room and let everyone fuck him up ...

[richter915]

And perhaps because we have so many drunk driving accidents and car accidents we should ban either alcohol, driving, or both?
I'd personally have no problem with banning alcohol...but those incidents ur talking about are ACCIDENTS (hence the term "driving accident")...I don't think this kid tripped over a twig and shot a bunch of people dead. His intention was clear...the article says he was waving the gun around and smiling...drunk drivers don't have the intent of killing...gun owners do.

[mediocrgreenday]

its not our gun control laws thats the problem, its our society as a whole thats the problem. kids are fucked up, when i was younger i felt safe at school and while i was hanging out with friends. when i have kids i dont know what the fuck im gonna do, kids these days are just out of their minds. and yes, i place the blame on their parents.

[xXxAveryxXx]

Its really sad, and really pathetic.....i turn on the tv and thats the first thing i see. Dude. its like a never ending torrent of evil and DEATH!

[richter915]

its not our gun control laws thats the problem, its our society as a whole thats the problem. kids are fucked up, when i was younger i felt safe at school and while i was hanging out with friends. when i have kids i dont know what the fuck im gonna do, kids these days are just out of their minds. and yes, i place the blame on their parents.
ya I wanted to add that...where are the parents in this whole thing? I didn't have the best upbringing but my parents weren't fucking assholes so I never even thought that violence would solve shit...they at least taught me good morals...I think blame should be placed and think the blame is placed on the parents and the school systems. The media to an extent. I still think the biggest problem is that guns are getting into the hands of kids easier and easier.

and kids these days are becoming more and more fucked up...my roommate was telling me about this class his gf teaches...she has a female student who's boyfriend just got arrested...FOR RAPE...oh ya, he's only 14.

[Cal Smith]

I'd personally have no problem with banning alcohol...but those incidents ur talking about are ACCIDENTS (hence the term "driving accident")...I don't think this kid tripped over a twig and shot a bunch of people dead. His intention was clear...the article says he was waving the gun around and smiling...drunk drivers don't have the intent of killing...gun owners do.

Accident or no accident they still result in deaths. I'm sure a parent of someone lost in a car accident is just as heartbroken as one who had a child murdered.

[oldwirehands]

I don't think its the kids. I think we have too many stupid people having sex and being horrible parents. Would it kill someone to use a condom? Or better yet, get on the pill. I'm sure most of these shooters were accidents and their parents don't put any effort into raising them.

[richter915]

Accident or no accident they still result in deaths. I'm sure a parent of someone lost in a car accident is just as heartbroken as one who had a child murdered.
that's right and like I said...drunk drivers should also be cut down...drunk driving accidents are probably more prominent than these sorts of incidents but there are differences between gun violence and drunk drivers. Yes, regardless of the means, a life is lost...and both can be avoided...I'm just pointing out that drinkers don't have the intention of killing anyone as a result of their choice...someone who takes a gun and puts it to ur head wants u dead...that's the difference and that's why more should be done to limit the availability of weapons to youngsters.

More things are done to prevent drunk driving accidents (rehab programs, tickets, jail time)...my point is that without guns getting into these kids' hands...the world would be a safer place...just like if alcoholics didn't have access to booze or a car (when drunk).

[hXc_pwnage]

Accident or no accident they still result in deaths. I'm sure a parent of someone lost in a car accident is just as heartbroken as one who had a child murdered.
But you can't just ban every accident. There's a huge difference between an accident and intent to kill. That is why murder charges are usually much harsher than manslaughter charges.

[open mind]

I don't think its the kids. I think we have too many stupid people having sex and being horrible parents. Would it kill someone to use a condom? Or better yet, get on the pill. I'm sure most of these shooters were accidents and their parents don't put any effort into raising them.
his father was dead and his mother was in the hospital because of brain damage she sustained in a car accident.

[sleepygrlgreen]

oh come on....they were ridiculed and made fun of in school. they were tortured souls. eh, i'm being sarcastic, but it is absolutely disgusting and it's sad to say, but this stuff is going to continue happening.

[mybreakingpoint]

school shootings are terrible...i met 2 girls in my dad's national guard unit who were at Columbine...terrible stuff this has to stop

[richter915]

hah, someone gave me negative scene points for this thread...wtf is up with that.

maybe he's behind all of this.....

[Cal Smith]

Honestly i don't care why he did it. I'm sure there a million and one excuses, but none of them really matter.

[EnderDove]

Honestly i don't care why he did it. I'm sure there a million and one excuses, but none of them really matter.
I would say its more reasons than excuses. He's dead now too, he cant make excuses so I would hope they would try and find out the reasons. They had something on CNN about this last night, also about how the shootings at Columbine could've been prevented if the police looked into Harris and Klebold after being warned about them. If Columbine was prevented....several other's may not have happened either. Still, instead of just shrugging this off as another school shooting something needs to be done.

[Love As Arson]

Guns don't kill people. People kill people. Of course, it's out of the question to make more strict limitations on those people who desire to use guns for the purpose of murder, or, and god forbid, we take the second amendment into context and realize it's no longer necessary.

[richter915]

Guns don't kill people. People kill people. Of course, it's out of the question to make more strict limitations on those people who desire to use guns for the purpose of murder, or, and god forbid, we take the second amendment into context and realize it's no longer necessary.
I'm sorry, it's still VERY much possible that the british would come here demanding their land again...and there's no way our army could defend us from attack cause it's small, disorganized, poorly trained, and underfuned...the only way we could defend ourselves is by forming small local militias and THAT'S why the second amendment still pertains to today.

^^^ Republican Richter915

in reality, of course, the second amendment has no correlation to today's society/world. It doesn't seem like people care about the "right to bear arms" but more about "the right to murder"...it's sad that you have so many people who want to use weapons and threats of violence in order to get a point across...and if necessary kill another human...and it's so funny that the supporters of this mindset are anti-abortionist republicans...they seem to hold more value to a freakin ball of 16 cells than they do a full grown human.

How about this scenario: Some guy walks into ur house ready to steal all your shit and more than willing to blow ur fucking brains out...u can't find ur gun cause ur snotty ass kid stole it to go play around with it and since u were so dependent on that gun you no absolutely no other way to defend urself (why try and call a cop, that might make too much sense)...this guy's holding u at gun point...pistol whips ur wife...eventually steals ur shit and leaves u tied and gagged on the floor...you call the cops and through whatever means find out that this guy would've been aborted but was raised by a 17 year old crack whore in some ghetto without a father and ended up like this because of that life he lead...wouldn't it be funny if all the shit u fought for came back and jizzed right in ur face?

now I'm sure, if you read that, you can come back and hit me with something but that's fine...but you know what, with whatever you come back at me with...chances are that this scenario is far more likely to happen.

[yeat182]

i just showed that link to people at work. they all said "only in america". its sad that the world view is slipping to say things like that.

only in america? you've got to be joking.

[hXc_pwnage]

In 2003-2004, there was easily over 100 attempted school shootings (that have been reported on this website that I am looking at http://www.keystosaferschools.com/violence03.htm.)

I can't really find anything about Europe though, so if someone wants to, they can check.

I guess violence, instead of shootings.

I can't find any really good sites on this stuff, though.

[theESCO]

Think it was sadgothguy?

[YouMadeTheScene]

cold blooded murder is cold blooded murder and their is never an excuse or good reason behind it. this kid had serious issues and the school should've recognized that after he had said that he was going to perform violent acts against the school. im also tired of the whole bully excuse. look you get picked on its really easy you tell the principal, if the principal doesn't listen and doesn't act you tell the new or tell your lawyer. Better yet, not to be a dick, go to the gym. start working out, do something if you feel you're getting picked on. when i was little i used to get picked on terribly, so i hit the weights. freshman year in high school and on no one fucked with me. look this kid was a nut plain and simple. i mean the whole issue of guns in homes is insane. Guns should not be sold thats it. if you want to hunt go get a bow and arrow or a spear. im just so tired of seeing this shit happen, kids should not be dying and their should be so much more attention paid to this. you think it'll never happen till it happens at your school

[EnderDove]

cold blooded murder is cold blooded murder and their is never an excuse or good reason behind it. this kid had serious issues and the school should've recognized that after he had said that he was going to perform violent acts against the school. im also tired of the whole bully excuse. look you get picked on its really easy you tell the principal, if the principal doesn't listen and doesn't act you tell the new or tell your lawyer. Better yet, not to be a dick, go to the gym. start working out, do something if you feel you're getting picked on. when i was little i used to get picked on terribly, so i hit the weights. freshman year in high school and on no one fucked with me. look this kid was a nut plain and simple. i mean the whole issue of guns in homes is insane. Guns should not be sold thats it. if you want to hunt go get a bow and arrow or a spear. im just so tired of seeing this shit happen, kids should not be dying and their should be so much more attention paid to this. you think it'll never happen till it happens at your school
No there never an excuse behind murder but instead of just saying the kid was a nut they need to figure out WHY he resorted to this and how it can be prevented from happening again. It seems that nothing has been done at all to stop such things happening in schools but hopefully this will open more eyes to the government. If this doesnt, more and more will happen and nothing will be seriously done until something far worse than Columbine happens and with the way this shooting easily went down there isnt anything to stop several kids from doing the same.

[YouMadeTheScene]

No there never an excuse behind murder but instead of just saying the kid was a nut they need to figure out WHY he resorted to this and how it can be prevented from happening again. It seems that nothing has been done at all to stop such things happening in schools but hopefully this will open more eyes to the government. If this doesnt, more and more will happen and nothing will be seriously done until something far worse than Columbine happens and with the way this shooting easily went down there isnt anything to stop several kids from doing the same.

the thing is though you can't truly figure out what is wrong with this kid. i mean i hate to draw comparison but what is the difference between a kid who shoots up his school and a mass murderer? the fact that they are young? bottom line is the kid had something mentally wrong with him. when both your parents have been taken from you thats a pretty good sign that you may need to watch this kid, when hes telling people he wants to shoot up the school thats a pretty good reason to watch him. THis kid just had serious mental instabilities. if he hadn't done it know he would've done it a couple years down the line. i dont wanna sound cold but Im being realisitc. I feel terrible for this kid because its not his fault that he had a serious problem but people should've figured this kid out. he wasn't exactly the honor student whose last name was Cleaver you know?

[EnderDove]

You confused me with that, I have no clue what your view is at all. You answered your own question though, the difference between this kid and a mass murderer even though he was one is that this kid gave signs that he needed help and there was time to help him. Most killers when they're older already could've got help but they were ignored, this was a young kid in SCHOOL and nobody did anything to prevent it. The difference is that he gives signs, but nobody takes him seriously because he is a kid.

[YouMadeTheScene]

You confused me with that, I have no clue what your view is at all. You answered your own question though, the difference between this kid and a mass murderer even though he was one is that this kid gave signs that he needed help and there was time to help him. Most killers when they're older already could've got help but they were ignored, this was a young kid in SCHOOL and nobody did anything to prevent it. The difference is that he gives signs, but nobody takes him seriously because he is a kid.

yea im a mess this stuff just drives me up the wall. i think my whole point is you can never find out what truly is wrong with these kids. i mean they are just nuts, you can never find out whats wrong all you can do is just prevent them from doing it by realizing they have a problem and stop hiding from the fact that kids have issues to these things just dont show up once you turn 18

[yeat182]

In 2003-2004, there was easily over 100 attempted school shootings (that have been reported on this website that I am looking at http://www.keystosaferschools.com/violence03.htm.)

I can't really find anything about Europe though, so if someone wants to, they can check.

I guess violence, instead of shootings.

I can't find any really good sites on this stuff, though.

dunblane (sp?) scotland, and wasn't there an incident in russia last year where terrorists took over a school? also, i believe there was one in germany in the last couple of years.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/04/26/germany.shooting/

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/02/russia.school/

this one is a good list as well:

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/04/26/deadly.school.violence/index.html

[NetNerdsRevenge]

Where did the kid get the gun?

[open mind]

Where did the kid get the gun?
he took the guns from his grandfather (who he killed) who had guns cause he was a police officer.

dunblane (sp?) scotland, and wasn't there an incident in russia last year where terrorists took over a school? also, i believe there was one in germany in the last couple of years.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/04/26/germany.shooting/

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/02/russia.school/

this one is a good list as well:

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/04/26/deadly.school.violence/index.html
okay then, only in america do auctual students kill their fellow students at school.

[yeat182]

he took the guns from his grandfather (who he killed) who had guns cause he was a police officer.


okay then, only in america do auctual students kill their fellow students at school.

and germany...

[Justin_stacy]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050322/ap_on_re_us/school_shooting

wonder how all the pro-guns activists will react to this....probably something like this:

"well if the kids who were being attacked had guns too, it woulda made the situation safer"

this is fucking disgusting...second time in 18 months in minnesota.

Fuck ur right to bear arms.

So the logic behind your statement is that because a few, a very few, fools abuse a constitutional right that it should be taken away from every law biding citizen, is that what your saying? So by that logic shouldn’t we also take away the 1st or 5th amendments too? People are continuously using the right of free speech to harm, incite and destroy others…so because of this abuse shouldn’t we take it away from everyone? Or what about the 5th, people are using it to hide from and escape from justice when wrong is actual done, so shouldn’t we also take away the right of all to oppose self-incrimination? Wouldn’t this fit into the fool’s logic your using?

And as with your “wonder” I have one too…. I wonder what all you gun-control extremist will say about the documented rise in crime that follows any abusive gun-control measure? Is this just unexplainable coincidence? Or is the, extreme, rise in home invasions, assaults, burglary, rapes and car thief’s (etc..) somehow tied to a societies inability to personal protect themselves against criminals who aren’t affect by abusive gun-control laws and in a way are brazened by them……?



And to those of you who wonder why our society is becoming so violent...just turn on the TV...see what the US is doing in the world...we get punched in the face (9/11)...so we go and kill thousands on the claim that they might do it again...even though we were wrong...we're still killing. When your president sees and unjust war as the solution...it might make some people not value human life. It might be a stretch but I think there's a definite correlation.

So we’re looking for correlation’s eh’? Well your Iraqi war analogy is good, but it’s a little too recent to be a justifiable argument. So what about some “correlation’s” that have a little more history behind them. Like say the left’s continued assault on the nuclear family (with the intent to destroy it)(?), or say society’s overall cheapening of life (?), or what about our court system and its “support” groups that are turning the guilty parties into the victims and the victims into the guilty parties?
Do you think any of these could have a connection to the rising tides of violence? I mean these kinds of violence weren’t as prolific in past years, and “war” isn’t a new concept. So maybe your “correlation” isn’t that valid after all, and maybe, just maybe, there is something more to it, socially, that is causing the problems….you think?

With that, I do commend you, though, on admitting that TV is too violent and that some form of censorship is needed, I find it a very positive step when an obvious liberal can admit that reality in some cases should trump ones own rhetoric….

[AnywhereButHome]

So the logic behind your statement is that because a few, a very few, fools abuse a constitutional right that it should be taken away from every law biding citizen, is that what your saying? So by that logic shouldn’t we also take away the 1st or 5th amendments too? People are continuously using the right of free speech to harm, incite and destroy others…so because of this abuse shouldn’t we take it away from everyone? Or what about the 5th, people are using it to hide from and escape from justice when wrong is actual done, so shouldn’t we also take away the right of all to oppose self-incrimination? Wouldn’t this fit into the fool’s logic your using?

And as with your “wonder” I have one too…. I wonder what all you gun-control extremist will say about the documented rise in crime that follows any abusive gun-control measure? Is this just unexplainable coincidence? Or is the, extreme, rise in home invasions, assaults, burglary, rapes and car thief’s (etc..) somehow tied to a societies inability to personal protect themselves against criminals who aren’t affect by abusive gun-control laws and in a way are brazened by them……?




So we’re looking for correlation’s eh’? Well your Iraqi war analogy is good, but it’s a little too recent to be a justifiable argument. So what about some “correlation’s” that have a little more history behind them. Like say the left’s continued assault on the nuclear family (with the intent to destroy it)(?), or say society’s overall cheapening of life (?), or what about our court system and its “support” groups that are turning the guilty parties into the victims and the victims into the guilty parties?
Do you think any of these could have a connection to the rising tides of violence? I mean these kinds of violence weren’t as prolific in past years, and “war” isn’t a new concept. So maybe your “correlation” isn’t that valid after all, and maybe, just maybe, there is something more to it, socially, that is causing the problems….you think?

With that, I do commend you, though, on admitting that TV is too violent and that some form of censorship is needed, I find it a very positive step when an obvious liberal can admit that reality in some cases should trump ones own rhetoric….



I love you. Solid argument.

[UndefinedBoy]

and germany...

Germany has had maybe one instance that I know of, we've had wayyy too many. It's pretty clear this is more of an American probelm than any other countries...

[Love As Arson]

Tv is the problem. Not guns. Sounds logical to me.

[hXc_pwnage]

dunblane (sp?) scotland, and wasn't there an incident in russia last year where terrorists took over a school? also, i believe there was one in germany in the last couple of years.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/04/26/germany.shooting/

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/02/russia.school/

this one is a good list as well:

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/04/26/deadly.school.violence/index.html
I read about one in Germany where 18 were killed.

So I can agree with you when they say, "Only in America," that it's stupid. Because no matter how you view America, we aren't the only place with school shootings; our problem is just a lot worse.

Tv is the problem. Not guns. Sounds logical to me.
And that Satan music.

[open mind]

and germany...
that kid wasn't attending that school, remember i said AUCTUAL students.

[yeat182]

Germany has had maybe one instance that I know of, we've had wayyy too many. It's pretty clear this is more of an American probelm than any other countries...

perhaps, or perhaps we just don't hear about it that often when it happens in other countries. i mean, how many abductions make breaking news here in the states, and yet I've never heard about one happening in another country on the news, but that doesn't mean its strictly an american problem.

[richter915]

So the logic behind your statement is that because a few, a very few, fools abuse a constitutional right that it should be taken away from every law biding citizen, is that what your saying? So by that logic shouldn’t we also take away the 1st or 5th amendments too? People are continuously using the right of free speech to harm, incite and destroy others…so because of this abuse shouldn’t we take it away from everyone? Or what about the 5th, people are using it to hide from and escape from justice when wrong is actual done, so shouldn’t we also take away the right of all to oppose self-incrimination? Wouldn’t this fit into the fool’s logic your using?But this is not just the case of a few "fools". These are young children who idolize people like Hitler and are just homegrown terrorists. I think by having this "right", it increases the guns in circulation therefore increasing the chances of it getting into the wrong hands. For me at least, that is just way too risky. With the first amendment thing, the next time you show me someone who has actually been killed by someone's words...call me. With the fifth amendment, think of all the innocent people who have been put into jail even with that there. You know the saying "it's better to have 1000 guilty on the streets than one innocent in jail"...it's common among philosophers and shit...Even still though, with how society is, having guns in mass circulation is not safe...even when you HAVE a hunting license, people can be killed (remember that asian dude who slaughtered a bunch of people while hunting).

And as with your “wonder” I have one too…. I wonder what all you gun-control extremist will say about the documented rise in crime that follows any abusive gun-control measure? Is this just unexplainable coincidence? Or is the, extreme, rise in home invasions, assaults, burglary, rapes and car thief’s (etc..) somehow tied to a societies inability to personal protect themselves against criminals who aren’t affect by abusive gun-control laws and in a way are brazened by them……?How do you explain the rise in suicide rates and school shootings in areas that are more lax in gun control? How do you explain the rise in "accidental" shootings in and out of the home?


So we’re looking for correlation’s eh’? Well your Iraqi war analogy is good, but it’s a little too recent to be a justifiable argument. So what about some “correlation’s” that have a little more history behind them. Like say the left’s continued assault on the nuclear family (with the intent to destroy it)(?), or say society’s overall cheapening of life (?), or what about our court system and its “support” groups that are turning the guilty parties into the victims and the victims into the guilty parties? Continued assault of the nuclear family? Just because we don't think that the only right way to live is a wife, 2.4 kids and a dog that means we're assaulting? How does that even relate to this? Are we going out and harming people and infringing their rights? Are we making it unsafe for them go step outside their homes? I don't even understand ur other point so I won't go into it.

Do you think any of these could have a connection to the rising tides of violence? I mean these kinds of violence weren’t as prolific in past years, and “war” isn’t a new concept. So maybe your “correlation” isn’t that valid after all, and maybe, just maybe, there is something more to it, socially, that is causing the problems….you think?I never said war was the ONLY reason. I think it's definitely up there but there are many other things too. How I mentioned that this kid idolized Hitler...that's definitely a contribution...how groups like the KKK and other neo-nazi organizations are gaining popularity...it doesn't help at all. Those groups promote violence and intolerance...and more and more kids are choosing that path. The kids in columbine were neo-nazis too. Again, there are many other reasons but I think in general, like you sorta mentioned, how society has a weaker understanding of the value of life...it doesn't help at all.

With that, I do commend you, though, on admitting that TV is too violent and that some form of censorship is needed, I find it a very positive step when an obvious liberal can admit that reality in some cases should trump ones own rhetoric….Thank you

[UndefinedBoy]

perhaps, or perhaps we just don't hear about it that often when it happens in other countries. i mean, how many abductions make breaking news here in the states, and yet I've never heard about one happening in another country on the news, but that doesn't mean its strictly an american problem.

True, kidnappings are a much bigger problem in other countries, but we rarely hear about that.

I'm not trying to blame our government or America for the shootings, but by the looks of it we seem to be the only country having this problem. Why? I'm not sure and if anyone knew that we'd be on our way to fixing it.

[hXc_pwnage]

Justin seems to have answers to everything.

[Love As Arson]

He has answers. Are they right? No.

[richter915]

True, kidnappings are a much bigger problem in other countries, but we rarely hear about that.

I'm not trying to blame our government or America for the shootings, but by the looks of it we seem to be the only country having this problem. Why? I'm not sure and if anyone knew that we'd be on our way to fixing it.
it's cause parents don't beat their children on a regular basis.

[Justin_stacy]

But this is not just the case of a few "fools". These are young children who idolize people like Hitler and are just homegrown terrorists. I think by having this "right", it increases the guns in circulation therefore increasing the chances of it getting into the wrong hands. For me at least, that is just way too risky.

So then you’re taking away a constitutional right of the law biding because of the acts of a few criminals. How can you honestly justify that? What if there was a right you used legally, and enjoyed, but that a few individuals abused, do you think it would be justifiable to strip you of that right, just because of the acts of an ignorant, criminal, few? Do you honestly think you’d go for it?

And the fact is (and if I’m wrong call me on it) the vast majority of gun owners are law biding, well trained individual. They are not Klan members, terrorists, or "Hitler lovers"; this is just ignorant rhetoric. And besides that overall crime in America is going down, we have the one of the lowest crime rates of all industrialized nations. And it is a documented fact that crime rises as gun control becomes more stringent (note: recent events in Australia and Great Britain). [Note I’m not saying the two are totally tied to one another, but the connection is just too great to not think they are tied in someway].

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=21902

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002-09-09-crime_x.htm

Taking guns away from the law-biding, won't prevent the criminals from commiting crimes...And I might point out that a better solution to your example(s) would be to put reasonable limits on what the freedom of speech protects. Putting restrictions on what extremists (left and right) and hate groups (individuals) can say and do would do far more to cure your problems, than taking away guns from the law biding…..I mean if the second amendment has limitations shouldn’t/couldn’t the first also?

With the first amendment thing, the next time you show me someone who has actually been killed by someone's words...call me. .

You don’t think a “leader” has ever used a voice to incite a deadly act by his listeners….is that really a bet you want to make?

With the fifth amendment, think of all the innocent people who have been put into jail even with that there.

And with the second amendment, Think of all the innocent people who have protected their families from intruders because they possessed a gun….or think of all the shop owner who have scared off and/or detained robbers because they possessed a gun? What would become of these people? Try justifying to them why they should now be left to be victims....

How do you explain the rise in suicide rates and school shootings in areas that are more lax in gun control? How do you explain the rise in "accidental" shootings in and out of the home?

I can’t, that’s fair, but you didn’t explain to me the rise in crimes, which affect the average citizen, that accompany extreme gun control laws.
On top of that explain to me why the countries with the most “abusive” gun control laws also have higher rates of suicide? Is it still about the guns or is it something more social?
Finland 26.4
Denmark 20.4
Austria 20.4
France 19.8
Switzerland 19.6
Japan 15.1
Sweden 14.7
Germany 13.8
Norway 13
(USA is at 11.8).

http://www.mcdl.org/Stats/gnpsuicide.htm


Again I must also point out that, now, you’re basing the taking way of a constitutional right on the acts of a few mentally unbalanced individuals. And that is just not being mentally fair, pun intended. A law-biding individual should not be striped of a right because of the acts of the sick; I can’t personally understand how you can even justify that. Your using that whole liberal mentality of punishing the innocent, rather then the guilty....which makes no sense.

Also now that hangs and self-inflicted suffocation are the rising cause of teen suicide, while gun usage is on the downfall, do you also propose that outlawing of belts, rope and plastic bags? (Note that suffocations are also the highest cause of 10-14 years suicides, not guns)
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/06/10/national/main622450.shtml
Taking away guns from law biding citizens will not stop the sick from committing suicide; it will only lead to them looking for other means….

Continued assault of the nuclear family? Just because we don't think that the only right way to live is a wife, 2.4 kids and a dog that means we're assaulting? How does that even relate to this? Are we going out and harming people and infringing their rights? Are we making it unsafe for them go step outside their homes? I don't even understand ur other point so I won't go into it.

First, I didn’t say just the redefining of marriage; continued assault should have been clue enough that it goes deeper then just the far Lefts current attempts. Second its legitimate because we’re trying to find the cause of the rise in violence. And the lack of a family structure is a justifiable cause. Just look at the African American community for example, 2/3 of children are born into fatherless homes. And the African American community alone accounts for 50 percent of all felony convictions and 50% of all murders, while totaling only 13% of the population. Do you really think this has no correlation to that 2/3’s figure?
So the destruction of the nuclear family is relevant to the discussion. With that said, I don’t feel that it is the end all answer for any of our current problems, only one of them.

About 12.9 percent (2000 census) of the American people are African Americans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States

the NAACP in January 2001 sued Florida and Harris, after finding that African-Americans?who account for 13 percent of Florida's electorate and 46 percent of U.S. felony convictions ?
http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=122&row=1

African Americans commit more than 50% of the country’s murders, but…..
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/Blume_etal.pdf#search='african%20am ericans%20commit%2050%%20of%20murde rs'


Thank you

Your welcome. And I mean that, only a fool would say that all censorship is bad, just as only a fool would say that total censorship is good.

True, kidnappings are a much bigger problem in other countries, but we rarely hear about that.

I'm not trying to blame our government or America for the shootings, but by the looks of it we seem to be the only country having this problem. Why? I'm not sure and if anyone knew that we'd be on our way to fixing it.

Most other countries have higher rates of thief, burglary’s, assault’s and rape’s (crimes which affect the average citizen more often)..then us....so America isn't on an island all to its self when it comes to a crime problem….

[TheOtherAndrew]

I dunno how many of you guys knew about this already, but apparently the shooter was into Naziism and he posted on Nazi.org. I looked around their forums a couple days ago and it was pretty scary. It's basically full of people who have this ideology that its ok to seperate different races and that Hitler was a good guy. I think one of them even said "Where are you when we need you, Hitler?" That kind of mentality really scares me. Anyway I think he posted as NativeNazi or something, at least that's what the article I read said.

But the thing that really scared the hell out of me was when I looked at a news story from one of the sites that Nazi.org had as a link - Overthrow.com. The news story was about how the Ant-Defamation League had come out and denounced Nazi.org after the info about the shooter posting there had leaked. http://66.101.143.208/lsn/news.asp?articleID=7921 Right before the actual story, the guy who posted it gave a little bit of commentary:

"In a world in which Jewish media and Jewish thought has stripped all meaning from existence, is it wrong to kill a few meaningless people?

Anyways, here is the ADL press release, and the LNSG Platform.

-sings- "Your tribunal will decide our fate. We tried to conquer hate. With no remorse we finally cried. Sweet tears of genocide ..."

;-D] "

Reading that just amazed me. These people are fucked up. Websites like Nazi.org and Overthrow aren't helping any.

[richter915]

I dunno how many of you guys knew about this already, but apparently the shooter was into Naziism and he posted on Nazi.org. I looked around their forums a couple days ago and it was pretty scary. It's basically full of people who have this ideology that its ok to seperate different races and that Hitler was a good guy. I think one of them even said "Where are you when we need you, Hitler?" That kind of mentality really scares me. Anyway I think he posted as NativeNazi or something, at least that's what the article I read said.

But the thing that really scared the hell out of me was when I looked at a news story from one of the sites that Nazi.org had as a link - Overthrow.com. The news story was about how the Ant-Defamation League had come out and denounced Nazi.org after the info about the shooter posting there had leaked. http://66.101.143.208/lsn/news.asp?articleID=7921 Right before the actual story, the guy who posted it gave a little bit of commentary:

"In a world in which Jewish media and Jewish thought has stripped all meaning from existence, is it wrong to kill a few meaningless people?

Anyways, here is the ADL press release, and the LNSG Platform.

-sings- "Your tribunal will decide our fate. We tried to conquer hate. With no remorse we finally cried. Sweet tears of genocide ..."

;-D] "

Reading that just amazed me. These people are fucked up. Websites like Nazi.org and Overthrow aren't helping any.
it's sad that the popularity of the internet has actually HELPED these kinds of organizations spread. And they attract the youth of america which wastes countless hours in front of the screen and look to blame their petty problems on someone else. The kids at columbine were also neo-nazis. I mean, people here complain so much about censorship but they don't mind websites covered in swastikas and things like that? It's messed up...

[Justin_stacy]

it's sad that the popularity of the internet has actually HELPED these kinds of organizations spread. ...

You should also put blame on groups like the ACLU, which defends groups like this, and their "right" to preach hatred.

Free speech should not be free of reasonable limits, hate groups and extremist groups shouldn't be allowed to put their "agendas" into the minds of impressionable teens; and be protected by the law, while doing it.

[Love As Arson]

You should also put blame on groups like the ACLU, which defends groups like this, and their "right" to preach hatred.

Free speech should not be free of reasonable limits, hate groups and extremist groups shouldn't be allowed to put their "agendas" into the minds of impressionable teens; and be protected by the law, while doing it.
They should be allowed to say whatever they want. It is our responsibility to teach our kids the ideas aren't beneficial to society.

[EnderDove]

They should be allowed to say whatever they want. It is our responsibility to teach our kids the ideas aren't beneficial to society.
I agree. Let them say what they want but its parents or other adults responsibility to know what the kids are doing with what they hear.

[Justin_stacy]

They should be allowed to say whatever they want. It is our responsibility to teach our kids the ideas aren't beneficial to society.

In a perfect world that would be grand, but the reality is parent aren't accountable, and society suffers because of it.

Also, does your comment apply to all issues, like the one the thread is about, or is it limited to "free speech" only?

[richter915]

You should also put blame on groups like the ACLU, which defends groups like this, and their "right" to preach hatred.

Free speech should not be free of reasonable limits, hate groups and extremist groups shouldn't be allowed to put their "agendas" into the minds of impressionable teens; and be protected by the law, while doing it.
I was actually gonna end with "dang ACLU..." but then I realized all the other groups they help out...it really is a double edged sword.

This is always going to be a problem when we have the right to assembly and things like that...those kindsa rights are all or none things...you can't say "well, your group is ok, you can assemble"...that's actual wishful thinking that would never work out.

Like what's been said, our best bet is for parents...and if not parents...our educational system to teach proper morals from a young age.

[Love As Arson]

In a perfect world that would be grand, but the reality is parent aren't accountable, and society suffers because of it.

Also, does your comment apply to all issues, like the one the thread is about, or is it limited to "free speech" only?
Numerous problems arise as a result of censoring. Let them say what they wish, then go out, and contradict what they say with skillful arguments.

[richter915]

Numerous problems arise as a result of censoring. Let them say what they wish, then go out, and contradict what they say with skillful arguments.
the only problem with that is the members of these organizations are just ignorant white trash who can't seperate their mother from their sister...these people don't listen to logic...that's why they're members of radical terrorist organizations and take pride in it.

[Justin_stacy]

Numerous problems arise as a result of censoring. Let them say what they wish, then go out, and contradict what they say with skillful arguments.

But to that same point numerous problems also arise by letting any individual propagate without restrictions or supervision. Its a slipper slop either way, yes, but with extremist attacking children on the internet and in the schools, I think society has a responsibility to review, and put reasonable limits on, what is allowed to have an audience.

the only problem with that is the members of these organizations are just ignorant white trash who can't seperate their mother from their sister...these people don't listen to logic...that's why they're members of radical terrorist organizations and take pride in it.

Too bad its not just "white trash" organizations we have too worry about. I think very few people would classify academia’s elitists as "white trash," but yet they are far more of a problem, and far more dangerous, then any hate group on the internet. Because they have a captive, impressionable, audience to spread their extremism too, and they have an element of control over that audience through grading.

People have to want to hear extremism on the internet, but in the schools they are forced to hear........which is just another reason why society needs to step in with restrictions and reasonable limitations.

[Love As Arson]

[QUOTE=Justin_stacy]But to that same point numerous problems also arise by letting any individual propagate without restrictions or supervision. Its a slipper slop either way, yes, but with extremist attacking children on the internet and in the schools, I think society has a responsibility to review, and put reasonable limits on, what is allowed to have an audience.[/QUOTE
I believe there is technology to block out things you don't want your children to see both online and on television.

[richter915]

But to that same point numerous problems also arise by letting any individual propagate without restrictions or supervision. Its a slipper slop either way, yes, but with extremist attacking children on the internet and in the schools, I think society has a responsibility to review, and put reasonable limits on, what is allowed to have an audience.



Too bad its not just "white trash" organizations we have too worry about. I think very few people would classify academia’s elitists as "white trash," but yet they are far more of a problem, and far more dangerous, then any hate group on the internet. Because they have a captive, impressionable, audience to spread their extremism too, and they have an element of control over that audience through grading.

People have to want to hear extremism on the internet, but in the schools they are forced to hear........which is just another reason why society needs to step in with restrictions and reasonable limitations.
what group of "academia's elitists" are u talking about?

[Justin_stacy]

I believe there is technology to block out things you don't want your children to see both online and on television.

So you’re willing to believe that all parents, particularly those of children who are most at risk (normally because of the parenting to begin with), will do this? And that society should take that risk?

Personally I don't see how the loss of total free speech to fringe groups, somehow out weighs the "threat" they impose on the greater society? Society loses nothing by watching and limiting them, but it does loses greatly when the extremism and hate they preach is acted on.

[Love As Arson]

So you’re willing to believe that all parents, particularly those of children who are most at risk (normally because of the parenting to begin with), will do this? And that society should take that risk?

Personally I don't see how the loss of total free speech to fringe groups, somehow out weighs the "threat" they impose on the greater society? Society loses nothing by watching and limiting them, but it does loses greatly when the extremism and hate they preach is acted on.
Society, for the most part, regards the speech you wish to ban as lunacy so, I see no harm in allowing them to talk about it as they wish.

[Justin_stacy]

Society, for the most part, regards the speech you wish to ban as .

Again with the emotionally charged wording! Bravo....

Unlike the, foolish, creator of this thread, I’m not calling for the outright “banning” of any constitutional right. All I’m saying is that we need to (or should) treat the 1st amendment the same way we treat the 2nd, and place limitations and restrictions on dangerous forms of speech which put the safety of society into question, the same way we control the gun trade, to help protect society against unnecessary dangers due to gun usage. We have not banned guns, but we have restricted them to where the constitutional right is still upheld, while not overlooking the safety factor that society requires. And we can easily do this again with the right to free speech…..and probably do some noticeable good.


lunacy so, I see no harm in allowing them to talk about it as they wish.

You see no harm in it? So because the majority of "society" views it as lunacy, it is somehow no longer harmful to them? Do you not see how absurd that is? Those who would be the prey of the fanatics probably cares very little about what the majority thinks, and this doesn’t make them less harmful, rather too the contrary it makes them all that much more harmful, particularly when given a “purpose” by a fanatic.

Not to mention, even an elementary sense of history contradicts your statement.

[Love As Arson]

Again with the emotionally charged wording! Bravo....

Unlike the, foolish, creator of this thread, I’m not calling for the outright “banning” of any constitutional right. All I’m saying is that we need to (or should) treat the 1st amendment the same way we treat the 2nd, and place limitations and restrictions on dangerous forms of speech which put the safety of society into question, the same way we control the gun trade, to help protect society against unnecessary dangers due to gun usage. We have not banned guns, but we have restricted them to where the constitutional right is still upheld, while not overlooking the safety factor that society requires. And we can easily do this again with the right to free speech…..and probably do some noticeable good.




You see no harm in it? So because the majority of "society" views it as lunacy, it is somehow no longer harmful to them? Do you not see how absurd that is? Those who would be the prey of the fanatics probably cares very little about what the majority thinks, and this doesn’t make them less harmful, rather too the contrary it makes them all that much more harmful, particularly when given a “purpose” by a fanatic.

Not to mention, even an elementary sense of history contradicts your statement.
There are restrictions on free speech.

I'm sure the KKK is very dangerous because we look at them as clowns these days.

Let them spew whatever it is they want to. If you disagree, prove it wrong, rather than setting a dangerous precedent.

[Justin_stacy]

, rather than setting a dangerous precedent.

The precedents already been set.....

[Love As Arson]

The precedents already been set.....
You'd have people deciding what is or isn't dangerous speech, which could lead to corruption.