Obama vs McCain - A Non American Perspective

[matt_rawlings]

For those of you out there like myself who do not live in America, I am curious as to what your opinions on the 2008 election race have been?

Speaking for myself, I am terrified that McCain is going to win, because lord knows that the end of this presidential race is going to have wide spread implications for everyone out there, reguardless of whether or not we live on American soil.

Now, if the UK could get rid of Gordan jackass Brown...then some real changes could start happening

[tambam]

I'm Canadian, and I'm hoping Obama wins. Like you, I'm terrified of the McCain/Palin ticket. Not only do I disagree with McCain's policies, but I think it's very possible that McCain won't be around for his term, and the last thing I want is Palin taking over. Just the thought scares the shit out of me.

[matt_rawlings]

I'm Canadian, and I'm hoping Obama wins. Like you, I'm terrified of the McCain/Palin ticket. Not only do I disagree with McCain's policies, but I think it's very possible that McCain won't be around for his term, and the last thing I want is Palin taking over. Just the thought scares the shit out of me.

Completely agree. I think she is actually a genuine danger and threat to millions of peoples lives and financial security.

The woman tried to have polar bears taken off of the endangered species list for fucks sake

[goodarmcindy]

For those of you out there like myself who do not live in America, I am curious as to what your opinions on the 2008 election race have been?

Speaking for myself, I am terrified that McCain is going to win, because lord knows that the end of this presidential race is going to have wide spread implications for everyone out there, reguardless of whether or not we live on American soil.

Now, if the UK could get rid of Gordan jackass Brown...then some real changes could start happening

Sorry to go horribly off topic but who would you replace Brown with and, what changes exactly do you think would happen?

[alice+interiors]

Brown hasn't been half as bad as Blair.. sure he can be non-commital and hasn't changed all that much but do you honestly think Cameron will do any better? The main reason the Conservatives are doing so well in opinion polls and the like right now is because they're pretty much not doing any of their own work, merely waiting for the weekly Labour slip-up and then pouncing on it, questioning whether they're the best party to take this country forwards. When the Tories actually do start reiterating their policies, they begin to lose votes and they've finally realized now, that shutting up will be far more effective.
That said, Labour definitely isn't aiding this country in many ways. I wouldn't mind seeing the LibDems try but I can't find much potential from that angle either.
It's very hard to see who the best option is when they all suck just as bad as the next one.

As for America, Obama/Biden is the way forwards, for sure. It would be ridiculous to vote back the Bush administration (now with a change of masks) for another term in office.

[matt_rawlings]

Brown hasn't been half as bad as Blair.. sure he can be non-commital and hasn't changed all that much but do you honestly think Cameron will do any better? The main reason the Conservatives are doing so well in opinion polls and the like right now is because they're pretty much not doing any of their own work, merely waiting for the weekly Labour slip-up and then pouncing on it, questioning whether they're the best party to take this country forwards. When the Tories actually do start reiterating their policies, they begin to lose votes and they've finally realized now, that shutting up will be far more effective.
That said, Labour definitely isn't aiding this country in many ways. I wouldn't mind seeing the LibDems try but I can't find much potential from that angle either.
It's very hard to see who the best option is when they all suck just as bad as the next one.

As for America, Obama/Biden is the way forwards, for sure. It would be ridiculous to vote back the Bush administration (now with a change of masks) for another term in office.


While I do often feel bad for Brown being shit on when all he is trying to do is correct Blair's mistakes (although I full heartedly supported Blair until he started playing sock puppet to the giant hand of America), I don't think he has allowed himself enough room to try and evade the mistakes of the prior labour Governing bodies.

That being said, I cannot stand the Conservative party...Cameron is a complete moron who has actually started plagerising whole heartedly from the Obama campaign speaches in order to lend his bogus elitist stances some credibility.

I vote Lib Dem

[matt_rawlings]

Sorry to go horribly off topic but who would you replace Brown with and, what changes exactly do you think would happen?

I would prefer to see a younger, more vindicated Labour candidate in office, or alternatively someone with Lib Dem ideals.

[alice+interiors]

While I do often feel bad for Brown being shit on when all he is trying to do is correct Blair's mistakes (although I full heartedly supported Blair until he started playing sock puppet to the giant hand of America), I don't think he has allowed himself enough room to try and evade the mistakes of the prior labour Governing bodies.

That being said, I cannot stand the Conservative party...Cameron is a complete moron who has actually started plagerising whole heartedly from the Obama campaign speaches in order to lend his bogus elitist stances some credibility.

I vote Lib Dem
My Dad is about as heavily interested and follows politics as I do (that's where I get my interest from) and for the first time since he became old enough, he will 99% not be voting at the next election. There seems to be nobody trustworthy to elect.
I would never be able to vote Labour until we see a complete overhaul of the party.. and not just a name change or some presentational edit, some big changes need to be implemented.
While I can see LibDems as perhaps the lesser of the three evils.. they are essentially evolving slowly and subtly into the Conservative Party, especially on issues such as tax. All three parties have the most similar range of policies in a long time, I do believe.

[goodarmcindy]

olving slowly and subtly into the Conservative Party, especially on issues such as tax. All three parties have the most similar range of policies in a long time, I do believe.

At the last round of party conferences, Nick Clegg came out in support of a super-tax on the top earners. That really doesn't sound like they are morphing into the Conservatives to me. The combination of Clegg and Cable gives me a little bit of faith in the Lib Dems. Of the big 3, the Lib Dems are now the most left-wing party (although this isn't saying much), but in general I think the Greens have the biggest social democratic agenda.

It is worth watching Clegg's speech at the latest conference. He is a good speaker and he had a couple of good ideas, amongst a fair bit of dross.

I would prefer to see a younger, more vindicated Labour candidate in office, or alternatively someone with Lib Dem ideals.

sorry if I have inferred the wrong thing from this but I assume you mean one of the Milibands. Don't you think Ralph is spinning in his grave at what those two have done and now represent?

[1.8Nate]

This is a cool thread. I've never met anybody that isn't from America who supports McCain.

[lew_1987]

Brown hasn't been half as bad as Blair.. sure he can be non-commital and hasn't changed all that much but do you honestly think Cameron will do any better? The main reason the Conservatives are doing so well in opinion polls and the like right now is because they're pretty much not doing any of their own work, merely waiting for the weekly Labour slip-up and then pouncing on it, questioning whether they're the best party to take this country forwards. When the Tories actually do start reiterating their policies, they begin to lose votes and they've finally realized now, that shutting up will be far more effective.
That said, Labour definitely isn't aiding this country in many ways. I wouldn't mind seeing the LibDems try but I can't find much potential from that angle either.
It's very hard to see who the best option is when they all suck just as bad as the next one.

As for America, Obama/Biden is the way forwards, for sure. It would be ridiculous to vote back the Bush administration (now with a change of masks) for another term in office.

I think you're wrong about Brown/Blair, but right about Cameron. Although I am dying to get rid of Labour (Gordon Brown more so), I am worried about the Conservatives getting in. It seems that the only way that Cameron is gaining support is by playing his party off against Labour, and I think he'll play to the tune of any old fiddle if he thinks it'll gain him votes. The next election will be the first time I've been able to vote, and I'll definitely be doing my research...

Back to the American election...

I haven't been following it too much, but it seems as if McCain is a bit of a right-wing idiot, with little grasp on the real world, whilst Obama seems a little more realistic about things. I would love him to get in just as a huge middle finger to all the ignorant and racist pricks against him not for his campaign, but for his personal 'attributes'.

I also find it funny how much of a show they put on, like when they pick a song to use throughout the campaign. Maybe if they stopped all that bullshit then people would actually listen to what the candidates are saying rather than choosing based on looks or first impressions.

[alice+interiors]

I think you're wrong about Brown/Blair, but right about Cameron. Although I am dying to get rid of Labour (Gordon Brown more so), I am worried about the Conservatives getting in. It seems that the only way that Cameron is gaining support is by playing his party off against Labour, and I think he'll play to the tune of any old fiddle if he thinks it'll gain him votes. The next election will be the first time I've been able to vote, and I'll definitely be doing my research...

Back to the American election...

I haven't been following it too much, but it seems as if McCain is a bit of a right-wing idiot, with little grasp on the real world, whilst Obama seems a little more realistic about things. I would love him to get in just as a huge middle finger to all the ignorant and racist pricks against him not for his campaign, but for his personal 'attributes'.

I also find it funny how much of a show they put on, like when they pick a song to use throughout the campaign. Maybe if they stopped all that bullshit then people would actually listen to what the candidates are saying rather than choosing based on looks or first impressions.
Just lurk the election thread for one evening.. you'll notice nearly all the main issues the two parties disagree about. I have posted far too much in there as of the last couple of nights.

[saysmydoctor]

It's relieving to know foreigners recognize the importance of our elections and elections around the world. I wish Americans were like that.

[keefer]

Obama deserves to be president. It's tme for the black people of America to be more representative in the White House. I am one of those people who despise Sarah Palin, honestly, what does she know other than shotting bears and driving her children to the hockey rink? I think I heard this joke on Jay Leno, but John McCain was seen shopping at Ikea the other day, it is the closest he'll ever be to getting his own cabinet

[WarpSpeedChewy]

This is such a cool idea for a thread. Really looking forward to seeing all of the different responses here.

[mijakai]

Over here it seems as if Obama is being portrayed as the good guy who's going to save America and McCain as the bad guy who's just Bush in disguise and Palin as a complete idiot.
I hope beyond all hope that Obama gets in because he seems like he's really in touch with everyone and knows what he's doing (you'd hope so), but my parents who lived in the USA for at least 15 years reckons "America's not ready for a black president".

Shit, we've got our own election going on over here in about a week and I have no idea who I'm going to vote for, but I've had my mind made up about the US for months.

[saysmydoctor]

I always thought Blair was fiercely popular up until Bush.

[salad fingers]

I live in America, so my opinion here is void, but I'm also terrified of Mccain and Palin. I'm happy everything is leaning Obama's way.

[secretsociety92]

If I could vote I would certainly vote for Obama, I am even going to watch the announcement of who will be President despite in being on from 11:45pm to 6:00am just so I know myself that the right decision has been made. As for our government, well as far as I am concerned we need a total overhaul of everyone who is in government and get people in who can relate with people and get the job done at the same time without being such an idiot who relates more to the past more than the future.

[ActionActionFan]

Obama deserves to be president. It's tme for the black people of America to be more representative in the White House. I am one of those people who despise Sarah Palin, honestly, what does she know other than shotting bears and driving her children to the hockey rink? I think I heard this joke on Jay Leno, but John McCain was seen shopping at Ikea the other day, it is the closest he'll ever be to getting his own cabinet

What experience does Obama have that Palin doesn't have? The position of governor not senator is more similar to the job of president.

Also, how can you say that Obama deserves it? Looking only at their history McCain is the one who deserves it more.

[salad fingers]

I hear Elizabeth Hassleback may be running for president alongside Sarah Palin in 2012. Maybe doomsday 2012 will come true -_o

[salad fingers]

What experience does Obama have that Palin doesn't have? The position of governor not senator is more similar to the job of president.
I'm pretty certain there is more control over a state than a country :)

[alice+interiors]

I always thought Blair was fiercely popular up until Bush.
He was always a similar kind of character to Bush.. he didn't reveal much until he got in charge, pulled the wool over many people's eyes. Cannot stand the man, never have.

[ActionActionFan]

I'm pretty certain there is more control over a state than a country :)

This makes no sense.

[Jaki1989]

hi, i spent 3 months in america this summer just gone and whilst i was over there, obama was definately the favoiurable canditate, just the excitement and hope he gave to most americans. i made some american friens iver there and they were so psyched for obama! its a major thing and i obviously understand why and stuff, cso im not stupid but like it was a nice thing to get away from it all back in the UK so i havent really followed it, ended up getting quite sick of it lol hearing about it constantly over there, it kinda made me realise that i probs should know about my own countries government more, so i did learn a lot from it. it was amazing how young people are eccited about obama. i thik he would be a good canditate, he seems like a decent felllow, and his speeches are good! thats what iv learnt lol. most of the americans i met were all supporting obama. i spose we'll see on tuesday! go obama! woopwoop! i think that he seems to be a genuinely nice guy lol with a lot of potentail, cos a lot of americans htta i had met just want change and thast what his plocy is all about!

i hope he wins anyway!

ooh goin slightly off topic, but happy halloween peeps!

[1.8Nate]

What experience does Obama have that Palin doesn't have? The position of governor not senator is more similar to the job of president.

Also, how can you say that Obama deserves it? Looking only at their history McCain is the one who deserves it more.

Chicago is in his state, and is one of the biggest cities in America.

And please don't use McCain's "I was a POW" rant for why he "deserves" it more. That has nothing to do with being president.

[Machu505]

My uncle is a POW. I guess he deserves to be president.

[aoftbsten]

as an american living in the uk i find everyone here seems to be pro obama. i seem to read a lot about him over here, in fact i've heard more about the US election than about british politics (although all i do hear is pretty much negative towards brown)

[ActionActionFan]

Chicago is in his state, and is one of the biggest cities in America.

And please don't use McCain's "I was a POW" rant for why he "deserves" it more. That has nothing to do with being president.

A Senator does not lead or control his state or a city in his state. And what has Obama done to deserve to be President that is more impressive than what McCain has done.

[Machu505]

John McCain can see Mexico. He knows about immigration.

[ActionActionFan]

My uncle is a POW. I guess he deserves to be president.

If he has been a Senator for 21 years and a member of the House of Representatives for 4 years then maybe he should run. If not, then there is no parallel so shutup.

[Machu505]

If he has been a Senator for 21 years and a member of the House of Representatives for 4 years then maybe he should run. If not, then there is no parallel so shutup.

Well he has so go fuck yourself.

[Machu505]

Let's elect Robert Byrd president. He has ten-thousand times the experience as John McCain. Joe Manchin can be his running mate, since he's a governor who's more experienced than Sarah Palin.

Byrd/Manchin '12

[Machu505]

Well, maybe Byrd is too old. After all, he is 90. So let's replace him with Jay Rockefeller.

Rockefeller/Manchin '12

[ArmedROBery]

A Senator does not lead or control his state or a city in his state. And what has Obama done to deserve to be President that is more impressive than what McCain has done.

I don't think either candidate "deserves" to be president. I just happen to think one candidate is more able to lead than the other. If the past is any indicator, direct military experience is not always necessary to form a great leader.

I feel that Obama has demonstrated a grasp of important issues (economics, tax policy, education, war, foreign policy, etc), as well as willingness to reach across party lines. He doesn't exude the stubborn will that McCain, Bush, or many social conservatives have displayed over the past few years, even in the face of severe consequences. Let me put it this way: the last president that shot from the hip managed to shoot us in the foot, and we'll be bleeding it out for years.

Since the inception of his campaign, Obama has also projected a charismatic, positive attitude about the future; not to mention that he has the power to move people (which is a great quality, no matter how many republicans/critics diminish it). His potential for improving our standing in the world is unmatched by McCain. However vague that sentiment might be, it is nonetheless valuable today, as America's respect has suffered deeply over the Bush years.

[1.8Nate]

If he has been a Senator for 21 years and a member of the House of Representatives for 4 years then maybe he should run. If not, then there is no parallel so shutup.

So when it comes to Obama being in the senate it doesn't count as experience, but when it comes to McCain, it does?

And once again, try to let your mind comprehend the fact that being a prisoner of war for 5 years does not make you qualified to be president. It has absolutely nothing to do with the ability to be in charge of an entire nation. I realize your redneck mindset won't allow you to understand that, but please try.

[lrz2525]

Obama deserves to be president. It's tme for the black people of America to be more representative in the White House. I am one of those people who despise Sarah Palin, honestly, what does she know other than shotting bears and driving her children to the hockey rink? I think I heard this joke on Jay Leno, but John McCain was seen shopping at Ikea the other day, it is the closest he'll ever be to getting his own cabinet
How does he deserve to be president? He has accomplished shit as a senator. It sounds like you clearly don't know what sarah palin stands for. i suggest you read up on each candidate's policies and then judge before you go jump on the obama bandwagon.

[lrz2525]

I'm pretty certain there is more control over a state than a country :)
lol what

[1.8Nate]

How does he deserve to be president? He has accomplished shit as a senator. It sounds like you clearly don't know what sarah palin stands for. i suggest you read up on each candidate's policies and then judge before you go jump on the obama bandwagon.

It's one thing if you support McCain, but supporting Sarah Palin automatically makes any of your opinions invalid.

[Machu505]

It's one thing if you support McCain, but supporting Sarah Palin automatically makes any of your opinions invalid.

This. She's a sack of shit.

[1.8Nate]

lol what

He's saying it's easier to control a state than a country because it's smaller.

[Machu505]

Obama has a relatively direct say in federal legislation. Whereas Sarah Palin's job as mayor of Wassila was to sign the checks, and her jobs as governor of the third smallest state in the Union are tending to caribou and imposing conservative policies.

[Praetor]

Obama/Biden > McCain/Palin

/thread

[lrz2525]

if obama gets elected our economy is going to be in an even deeper shithole then it already is. in order for the economy to grow there needs to be expansionary fiscal policy, which includes cutting taxes for everyone. when taxes are cut, people are going to spend more, which then puts money back into the economy and allows it to grow and prosper. obama wants to raise taxes on corporations and businesses which will result in a loss of jobs and less spending. it pisses me off that people dont look deeper into obama's policies and just care about how well of a speaker he is. also, his "spreading the wealth" idea is complete bullshit. if you work 9-5 5 days a week do you really want the government to take part of your hard-earned income and give it to some lazy bastard on welfare? ridiculous.

/rant

[Jason Tate]

How does he deserve to be president? He has accomplished shit as a senator. It sounds like you clearly don't know what sarah palin stands for. i suggest you read up on each candidate's policies and then judge before you go jump on the obama bandwagon.
Done shit? Maybe you need to read up.

http://thinkonthesethings.wordpress.com/2007/06/13/obamas-voting-record-in-the-illinois-state-senate/
http://thinkonthesethings.wordpress.com/2007/08/29/when-the-cameras-are-off-barack-obamas-hurricane-katrina-record/
http://thinkonthesethings.wordpress.com/2007/05/19/darfur-action-ratings-for-democratic-candidates/
http://www.votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=9490
http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2007/07/29/us/politics/20070730_OBAMA_GRAPHIC.html

A woman supporting Sarah Palin and a candidate that doesn't believe in equal pay for equal work - never thought I'd see that.

[Machu505]

if obama gets elected our economy is going to be in an even deeper shithole then it already is. in order for the economy to grow there needs to be expansionary fiscal policy, which includes cutting taxes for everyone. when taxes are cut, people are going to spend more, which then puts money back into the economy and allows it to grow and prosper. obama wants to raise taxes on corporations and businesses which will result in a loss of jobs and less spending. it pisses me off that people dont look deeper into obama's policies and just care about how well of a speaker he is. also, his "spreading the wealth" idea is complete bullshit. if you work 9-5 5 days of week do you really want the government to take part of your hard-earned income and give it to some lazy bastard on welfare? ridiculous.

/rant

1. If McCain is elected, how the fuck can he cut taxes for everyone yet, at the same time, increase defense spending? How does that work out?

2. Yeah, who would have EVER thought of progressive taxes in the US. Oh yeah, that's right. TEDDY ROOSEVELT. AS IN JOHN MCCAIN'S HERO. Yeah and the nineties sure suck economically. Sure.

[Jason Tate]

if obama gets elected our economy is going to be in an even deeper shithole then it already is.

Not according to the overwhelming number of economists that support Obama over McCain.

http://media.economist.com/images/20081004/CUS955.gif

in order for the economy to grow there needs to be expansionary fiscal policy,

This term means nothing.

which includes cutting taxes for everyone. when taxes are cut, people are going to spend more, which then puts money back into the economy and allows it to grow and prosper.

False, as many economists have pointed out - even with money people aren't spending. The problem isn't because people aren't spending money. The issues stem from a lack of credit -- cutting taxes won't do anything to improve the TED, Libor, or other credit indicators. Nor will it have an impact on the housing market. Obama is cutting taxes for most of the country, those he isn't is inconsequential. The middle class will see a better tax cut under Obama than McCain (roughly 3x better) and there's a shit load more of them then there are rich folks. Sooooooooo, by your own argument: Obama '08.

obama wants to raise taxes on corporations and businesses which will result in a loss of jobs and less spending.

It won't impact 98% of businesses. And his job creation plans are far superior to McCain's. The big oil companies don't need a tax cut -- they're already seeing record profits.

it pisses me off that people dont look deeper into obama's policies and just care about how well of a speaker he is..

Weird, it pisses me off when people don't either. Hint hint.

also, his "spreading the wealth" idea is complete bullshit. if you work 9-5 5 days of week do you really want the government to take part of your hard-earned income and give it to some lazy bastard on welfare? ridiculous.

Ironic after you make a claim that people should look into policies. Weird. Guess what a progressive income tax is? Spreading the wealth. It also has nothing to do with welfare - there's a work requirement on all tax credits. Furthermore, the "spreading" of the wealth is to the middle class compared to spreading to the "rich"-- both policies "spread" wealth, as that's what a progressive income tax does (something we've had for roughly 120 years).

/rant

Incorrect rant. Take your own advice. Or ask questions. Thank God you're only 17.

[lrz2525]

so he pretty much voted for everything that would hurt businesses. awesome. that will really help our economy.

[Machu505]

Those Bush Tax Cuts that John McCain supports sure helped the economy. And how are those not "spreading the wealth"?

[trindaddy]

if obama gets elected our economy is going to be in an even deeper shithole then it already is. in order for the economy to grow there needs to be expansionary fiscal policy, which includes cutting taxes for everyone. when taxes are cut, people are going to spend more, which then puts money back into the economy and allows it to grow and prosper. obama wants to raise taxes on corporations and businesses which will result in a loss of jobs and less spending. it pisses me off that people dont look deeper into obama's policies and just care about how well of a speaker he is. also, his "spreading the wealth" idea is complete bullshit. if you work 9-5 5 days a week do you really want the government to take part of your hard-earned income and give it to some lazy bastard on welfare? ridiculous.

/rant
If you are a 9-5 worker, you're probably one of the people receiving said tax break. Perhaps you should read up on sociology and economics.

[Jason Tate]

so he pretty much voted for everything that would hurt businesses. awesome. that will really help our economy.
Except ... not. Ever taken an econ class? It's apparent you haven't. His policies would help businesses. As someone that runs a few of those -- maybe I know what I'm talking about.

[Jason Tate]

This thread is growing quickly off topic ... I like the theme of it, however, it seems jacked by ignorant Americans. I think they should join the official thread and leave this thread to its original idea.

17 year olds can be very smart -- they can -- however, when they start trying to talk economic policy, it's mind numbingly annoying. I spent 8 years studying economics and am not even close to an expert on the subject. I study this stuff for fun now -- so when someone starts tossing words they may have heard on some talk show, it's absolutely obnoxious.

[lrz2525]

Except ... not. Ever taken an econ class? It's apparent you haven't. His policies would help businesses. As someone that runs a few of those -- maybe I know what I'm talking about.
from the links you posted, it looks like he has. and yes i'm in an economics class. where i live is very conservative so of course my views on policies are going to be different than someone who lives in oregon.

[Jason Tate]

from the links you posted, it looks like he has. and yes i'm in an economics class. where i live is very conservative so of course my views on policies are going to be different than someone who lives in oregon.
I don't care about your "views" I care about the mathematical figures. My views are fiscally conservative and I am a Keynesian fan. Doesn't change the data. The links I posted did not include anything remotely close to: "he pretty much voted for everything that would hurt businesses."

Run back to your high-school econ class.

[1.8Nate]

from the links you posted, it looks like he has. and yes i'm in an economics class. where i live is very conservative so of course my views on policies are going to be different than someone who lives in oregon.

It sad that that's your excuse for stupidity.

[lrz2525]

I don't care about your "views" I care about the mathematical figures. My views are fiscally conservative and I am a Keynesian fan. Doesn't change the data. The links I posted did not include anything remotely close to: "he pretty much voted for everything that would hurt businesses."

Run back to your high-school econ class.
you have fiscally conservative views but you're voting for obama who is very far to the left?

[Jason Tate]

you have fiscally conservative views but you're voting for obama who is very far to the left?
When it comes to fiscal policy Obama will add half as much to the national debt as John McCain will, will spur job growth, historically help the stock market, and put more money in my pocket. His economic stances are quite moderate and in comparison to McCain's - actually looking more "conservative" by the day.

So yes, I am voting for Obama. If you think for a second John "Pay Face Value for Mortgages" McCain embodies one ounce of conservative policy when it comes to the economy -- you're sadly mistaken. Just because he believes in the failed policy of supply-side economics - doesn't make him "conservative" - it makes him wrong.

Obama is not nearly as far to the left as your "very far" statement would lead one to believe.

[lrz2525]

If you are a 9-5 worker, you're probably one of the people receiving said tax break. Perhaps you should read up on sociology and economics.
Actually no, my household would not receive this tax break. obama's new definition of middle class is now at $150,000. guess that makes us upper class now.

[GuitarR0cker1]

I don't care about your "views" I care about the mathematical figures. My views are fiscally conservative and I am a Keynesian fan. Doesn't change the data. The links I posted did not include anything remotely close to: "he pretty much voted for everything that would hurt businesses."

Run back to your high-school econ class.
I don't mean to be an ass but how can you call Keynesian economics fiscally conservative?

[Jason Tate]

Actually no, my household would not receive this tax break. obama's new definition of middle class is now at $150,000. guess that makes us upper class now.
Wrong, wrong, wrong, stop lying.

If your family makes less than 250k you won't see a cent of your taxes raised, under 200k, your family will see a tax cut. You can't just make things up and think people are going to fall for them.

[Jason Tate]

I don't mean to be an ass but how can you call Keynesian economics fiscally conservative?
I didn't; and is a separator.

IE: I like coffee AND am a cheerios fan.

[GuitarR0cker1]

I didn't; and is a separator.

IE: I like coffee AND am a cheerios fan.
I see, I am just not used to people being fiscally conservative and liking keynesianism. It is an odd combination.

[lrz2525]

Wrong, wrong, wrong, stop lying.

If your family makes less than 250k you won't see a cent of your taxes raised, under 200k, you're family will see a tax cut. You can't just make things up and think people are going to fall for them.
it's not a lie, that number came straight from joe biden's mouth.

[Jason Tate]

I see, I am just not used to people being fiscally conservative and liking keynesianism. It is an odd combination.

Not really, the governmental side of The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money is phenomenal stuff. Mankiw is basically as conservative as they come, and I doubt many would argue that - he named his dog: Keynes.

[lrz2525]

Joe Biden caused headaches for the campaign Monday when he told a Scranton, Pa., TV station that Obama's tax break "should go to middle class people -- people making under $150,000 a year."

[Jason Tate]

it's not a lie, that number came straight from joe biden's mouth.

He was saying if you are in the 150k tax range you will see a cut, not ONLY in that range. Someone in the 70k range will see a cut too, someone in the 199k range will see a cut. Doesn't change the policy.

You're getting more annoying in increasingly strong strides.

[Jason Tate]

Joe Biden caused headaches for the campaign Monday when he told a Scranton, Pa., TV station that Obama's tax break "should go to middle class people -- people making under $150,000 a year."

Obama, Biden 'creeping down' on who gets tax cuts? (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/29/fact-check-obama-biden-creeping-down-on-who-gets-tax-relief/)

The Facts
Obama has said throughout the campaign that families making less than $250,000 a year will not see a tax increase. Those making less than $200,000 will get a tax cut, he says. "If you make less than a quarter of a million dollars a year, you will not see a single dime of your taxes go up," Obama said during an October 7 presidential debate in Nashville, Tennessee. "If you make $200,000 a year or less, your taxes will go down."

The campaign ad McCain refers to, titled "Defining Moment," does have a graphic appear on the screen that says, "Families making less than $200,000 get tax cut." Obama says, "If you have a job, pay taxes and make less than $200,000 a year, you'll get a tax cut," which is, again, consistent with the plan he has laid out.

Biden was speaking Monday, October 27, in an interview with WNEP in Scranton, Pennsylvania. He said, "(An) $87 billion tax break doesn't need to go to people making an average of $1.4 million. It should go like it used to. It should go to middle class people — people making under $150,000 a year." Biden never says that tax breaks should "only" go to such people. The Obama campaign says he was merely using that figure as an example and that the statement does not represent a change in policy.

The Verdict:
False. What McCain is doing here, in part, is comparing apples and oranges. He compares two different aspects of Obama's tax plan as if they were the same. And Biden never said people making less than $150,000 are the "only" people who would get a tax cut under Obama's policies.

[lrz2525]

regardless, i still don't fall into either one of those categories so i hope you have a little understanding of why i'm not for obama.

[Jason Tate]

regardless, i still don't fall into either one of those categories so i hope you have a little understanding of why i'm not for obama.
You're 17. You don't even file your own taxes, what are you talking about? And if we're talking about your parents -- you should still want Obama because there is no argument: Historically you do better under a Democratic president They'd make the tax money back 10 fold if the economy rebounds. They're rich - they can afford 3% more to see a higher ROI

[1.8Nate]

regardless, i still don't fall into either one of those categories so i hope you have a little understanding of why i'm not for obama.

So apparently you make a million dollars a year or something? Quit trying to talk your family up like you're too rich to vote for Obama.

[ActionActionFan]

I don't think either candidate "deserves" to be president. I just happen to think one candidate is more able to lead than the other. If the past is any indicator, direct military experience is not always necessary to form a great leader.

I feel that Obama has demonstrated a grasp of important issues (economics, tax policy, education, war, foreign policy, etc), as well as willingness to reach across party lines. He doesn't exude the stubborn will that McCain, Bush, or many social conservatives have displayed over the past few years, even in the face of severe consequences. Let me put it this way: the last president that shot from the hip managed to shoot us in the foot, and we'll be bleeding it out for years.

Since the inception of his campaign, Obama has also projected a charismatic, positive attitude about the future; not to mention that he has the power to move people (which is a great quality, no matter how many republicans/critics diminish it). His potential for improving our standing in the world is unmatched by McCain. However vague that sentiment might be, it is nonetheless valuable today, as America's respect has suffered deeply over the Bush years.

:rotfl: . You realize that Obama has one of the most liberal voting records in the entire senate. McCain is much more of a moderate and reaches across the aisle more often.

[1.8Nate]

:rotfl: . You realize the Obama has one of the most liberal voting records in the entire senate. McCain is much more of a moderate and reaches across the aisle more often.

No, he just tries to act like he is. He's desperate to get democrat votes.

[1.8Nate]

What a selfish piece of shit that girl is.

I agree, she really has no grasp on the fact that the world doesn't revolve around her and her "rich" parents.

[ArmedROBery]

Just because he has voted with his party does not mean he can't weigh out both sides.

Did you happen to watch the debates? Remember how Obama got slammed for saying "I agree with McCain on such and such point, BUT...."? He clearly displayed both then, and now, his ability to reason between opposing viewpoints, managing to find common ground but not common solution.

EDIT: Additionally, his "strongly" liberal voting record begins to look pretty good when compared to the failed policies McCain supports.

[saysmydoctor]

Who is the dipshit bitch posting in here? "I took a high school econ class, Mr. Jason Tate, guy who went to school for Business Administration and Understands the Taxation Policies of Both Candidates Far Better Than I Do."

[1.8Nate]

Who is the dipshit bitch posting in here? "I took a high school econ class, Mr. Jason Tate, guy who went to school for Business Administration and Understands the Taxation Policies of Both Candidates Far Better Than I Do."

Did you see her jabs about how "her family doesn't fall into Obama's tax cut range"? What a fucking spoiled bitch.

[saysmydoctor]

Did you see her jabs about how "her family doesn't fall into Obama's tax cut range"? What a fucking spoiled bitch.
She is a product of the American individualist society. She is one of millions of snotty little fucking pieces of shit who cares about themselves.

[Machu505]

She's a real American.

[saysmydoctor]

That depends on how Florida votes. If it goes blue, she is doomed to be a fake American and probably needs to be a part of Bachmann's penetrating expose.

[1.8Nate]

Let's make a thread about her.

[1.8Nate]

That depends on how Florida votes. If it goes blue, she is doomed to be a fake American and probably needs to be a part of Bachmann's penetrating expose.

Have you looked at that CNN poll wall thing? Even if McCain wins the rest of the undecided states (Missouri, Indiana, Ohio, Florida, North Carolina, etc), Obama will still win.

[saysmydoctor]

I've seen King's playtoy.

[hollywoodending]

How does he deserve to be president? He has accomplished shit as a senator. It sounds like you clearly don't know what sarah palin stands for. i suggest you read up on each candidate's policies and then judge before you go jump on the obama bandwagon.

ha, you're from lake mary too?


I would NEVER vote for McCain, but if he did win, I wouldn't mind TOO much. However, since he brought along Palin I could never allow right-wing nutjob like that in the white house. She's a fucking closed-minded idiot and if she ever got power our county would be literally fucked.

People are just afraid to move forward. Open up your fucking mind

[ActionActionFan]

No, he just tries to act like he is. He's desperate to get democrat votes.

If you look at both Obama and McCain's voting records, McCain is much more moderate. It is not a disguise to win votes.

[ActionActionFan]

Obama has a relatively direct say in federal legislation. Whereas Sarah Palin's job as mayor of Wassila was to sign the checks, and her jobs as governor of the third smallest state in the Union are tending to caribou and imposing conservative policies.

Alaska is actually the biggest state in the union.

[TK]

Alaska is actually the biggest state in the union.

Because he wasn't meaning by population...

[1.8Nate]

Alaska is actually the biggest state in the union.

By land mass, which doesn't mean shit. It's not very populated at all.

[OveriseFan]

Have you looked at that CNN poll wall thing? Even if McCain wins the rest of the undecided states (Missouri, Indiana, Ohio, Florida, North Carolina, etc), Obama will still win.

But if Pennsylvania swings, or Virgina and Iowa, or some other combinations which are possible, albeit not likely, then McCain can win.

It all depends on who actually goes out and votes, in the end.

[GuitarR0cker1]

Alaska is actually the biggest state in the union.
Are you being serious here? I honestly can't tell if this is joke sarcasm or dumb assery.

[1.8Nate]

But if Pennsylvania swings, or Virgina and Iowa, or some other combinations which are possible, albeit not likely, then McCain can win.

It all depends on who actually goes out and votes, in the end.

I checked it, and if Pennsylvania swings and he gets the rest of the undecided states, Obama would still be ahead by 2.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/calculator/

Click on the states and you can give them to either candidate to see the numbers.

[Jason Tate]

:rotfl: . You realize that Obama has one of the most liberal voting records in the entire senate. McCain is much more of a moderate and reaches across the aisle more often.

Nope (http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Senate/lib_senator_ratings-2007.html) - he's way down the list of "most liberal."

[1.8Nate]

Nope (http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Senate/lib_senator_ratings-2007.html) - he's way down the list of "most liberal."

Pwned!

[trindaddy]

Actually no, my household would not receive this tax break. obama's new definition of middle class is now at $150,000. guess that makes us upper class now.
Do you actually believe every mud slinging ad you see? Fucking grow up and learn to think for yourself and research for yourself, instead of believing the bullshit things you see on t.v. You just took Biden's misquote the other day and took it over fact from what Obama said. I'm not ignorant, I can clearly see what you're trying to do and it only makes you look less intelligent than you've already set yourself out to be.

[alice+interiors]

Maybe moderate by American standards.
This.

[&IllBeTheReason]

Ugh. She made 17 year old girls from Florida look bad.

[saysmydoctor]

Alaska is actually the biggest state in the union.
In size, yes. But in population, false.
Nope (http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Senate/lib_senator_ratings-2007.html) - he's way down the list of "most liberal."
I was trying to find this link...

[ActionActionFan]

Nope (http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Senate/lib_senator_ratings-2007.html) - he's way down the list of "most liberal."

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/01/31/politics/horserace/entry3775451.shtml

[Praetor]

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/01/31/politics/horserace/entry3775451.shtml
Some interesting parts of that article:

The differences between Obama and Clinton might be smaller than the first appear, however: National Journal notes that "Of the 267 measures on which both senators cast votes in 2007, the two differed on only 10."

Clinton ranked 16th.



Interestingly, Sen. John McCain "did not vote frequently enough in 2007 to draw a composite score," National Journal writes. "He missed more than half of the votes in both the economic and foreign-policy categories."

At least Obama...you know. Voted.

[Machu505]

Alaska is actually the biggest state in the union.

O rly:

Because he wasn't meaning by population...

By land mass, which doesn't mean shit. It's not very populated at all.

Are you being serious here? I honestly can't tell if this is joke sarcasm or dumb assery.

[alice+interiors]

So, er, funny how there are only Americans in this thread. We can argue our own corner.

[Roboman]

This is a cool thread. I've never met anybody that isn't from America who supports McCain.

This. I'm currently in Germany for a semester or two and have met people from all over the world, and yep, every single one that I have talked about the election with wants Obama to win.

Obama deserves to be president. It's tme for the black people of America to be more representative in the White House. I am one of those people who despise Sarah Palin, honestly, what does she know other than shotting bears and driving her children to the hockey rink? I think I heard this joke on Jay Leno, but John McCain was seen shopping at Ikea the other day, it is the closest he'll ever be to getting his own cabinet

I take issue with this sentiment. Race should (keyword: should) not have any influence on who someone is going to vote for. It's just physical appearance. What you're saying sounds like affirmative action for the office of president.

[Jason Tate]

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/01/31/politics/horserace/entry3775451.shtml

The national journal is a well known republican publication - every election year they conveniently say the man running is the most liberal senator. This is why it's more important to look at all the data, from a variety of sources, instead of one. Which is why I provided you with a statistical break down from one of the brightest mathematical minds in the country.

[alice+interiors]

This. I'm currently in Germany for a semester or two and have met people from all over the world, and yep, every single one that I have talked about the election with wants Obama to win.



I take issue with this sentiment. Race should (keyword: should) not have any influence on who someone is going to vote for. It's just physical appearance. What you're saying sounds like affirmative action for the office of president.
Very good point, it otherwise makes a parody of complaining about those who don't vote for him because of that.

[saysmydoctor]

See, Americans really do invade everything. Threads, nations, we are equal opportunity preemptive strikers.

[Machu505]

We have been met as liberators.

[Lueda Alia]

I'm pretty sure everyone knows where I stand.

[alice+interiors]

I'm pretty sure everyone knows where I stand.
Die hard McCain / Palin campaigner.

[Lueda Alia]

Die hard McCain / Palin campaigner.
Exactly.

[sean-reid]

I am someone in the UK who has taken more interest in this US Presidential election, then any previous elections. First of all if I could vote, I'd vote for Obama for various reasons. He gives the impression of hope to Americans and I believe he can change America, whilst I think McCain would be the same as Bush or even possibly taking America a step back from the Bush Adminstration.

Also alot of the news reports I've read and seen, it seem's that McCain and Palin have been critcising Obama's ideas and policies more then concentrating on their own. I know this is probably your usual political bullying but surely it would be a logical idea to promote and talk about yourself rather then talk about your rival?

[samsara]

its cool that people from other countries are more for Obama

it tells you what they think of McCain

[1.8Nate]

its cool that people from other countries are more for Obama

it tells you what they think of McCain

Like I said before, I don't think I've met any non-American who supports McCain.

[lew_1987]

Like I said before, I don't think I've met any non-American who supports McCain.

That's because my dad doesn't post on here.

[1.8Nate]

That's because my dad doesn't post on here.

Really? What're his views on it?

[lew_1987]

Really? What're his views on it?

He's a closet racist. There's your answer.

[Closet Fan]

On the tax issue:

My parents' combined income is below the poverty limit, and I have no complaints regarding the conditions in which I was raised. Despite a fixed income, we still managed to enjoy many of the same luxuries afforded to middle-class Americans. I can't imagine how a person whose parents - hell, even one of their parents - earn $250,000 has any room to bitch about a slight tax increase. Maybe you should stop and think about how sweet your life really is.

[Jason Tate]

On the tax issue:

My parents' combined income is below the poverty limit, and I have no complaints regarding the conditions in which I was raised. Despite a fixed income, we still managed to enjoy many of the same luxuries afforded to middle-class Americans. I can't imagine how a person whose parents - hell, even one of their parents - earn $250,000 has any room to bitch about a slight tax increase. Maybe you should stop and think about how sweet your life really is.
Make sure you're voting! And take as many people as you can with you! PA needs to be blue! :-D

[Closet Fan]

Make sure you're voting! And take as many people as you can with you! PA needs to be blue! :-D

Obama is definitely getting my vote, and I can proudly say the same for the rest of my immediate family. I just recently began doing my research for this year's election as early as a few months ago, attaching myself to no candidate in particular, but, after carefully comparing both Obama and McCain's plans, it really seemed like a no-brainer. I've been trying to encourage everyone I know to vote Democrat this election, but, for the most part, everyone I know had already been planning on it. I'm happy there aren't too many McCain supporters out here in Philly, although it does trouble me that the people I do know who are voting red act as if it's an obligation, like they're carrying out some kind of familial voting trend. "My grandpa was a Republican, and so is my dad. I'm voting McCain this election." It's pathetic.

[Jason Tate]

Obama is definitely getting my vote, and I can proudly say the same for the rest of my immediate family. I just recently began doing my research for this year's election as early as a few months ago, attaching myself to no candidate in particular, but, after carefully comparing both Obama and McCain's plans, it really seemed like a no-brainer. I've been trying to encourage everyone I know to vote Democrat this election, but, for the most part, everyone I know had already been planning on it. I'm happy there aren't too many McCain supporters out here in Philly, although it does trouble me that the people I do know who are voting red act as if it's an obligation, like they're carrying out some kind of familial voting trend. "My grandpa was a Republican, and so is my dad. I'm voting McCain this election." It's pathetic.
You rule.

[fallout1819]

I don't see how anyone could honestly think John McCain is the best thing for America at this point. It just baffles me how people can support a guy like him.

I also hate how some people I've talked to are going to vote McCain just because he was POW. That doesn't really qualify him to lead the country 40-odd years later.

[Closet Fan]

You rule.

No, Jason. Obama/Biden rule. ;-)

[Closet Fan]

I don't see how anyone could honestly think John McCain is the best thing for America at this point. It just baffles me how people can support a guy like him.

I also hate how some people I've talked to are going to vote McCain just because he was POW. That doesn't really qualify him to lead the country 40-odd years later.

I couldn't agree more. The other day, I believe McCain and Palin were rallying somewhere here in PA and, standing directly behind him, there were a handful of senior citizens holding pro McCain signs. My mom looked at me and said, "These people are on Medicare and Social Security. Why the fuck would they even consider voting for this guy?" It makes absolutely no sense to me why anyone would even have to think about where their vote is going this election.

[fallout1819]

I couldn't agree more. The other day, I believe McCain and Palin were rallying somewhere here in PA and, standing directly behind him, there were a handful of senior citizens holding pro McCain signs. My mom looked at me and said, "These people are on Medicare and Social Security. Why the fuck would they even consider voting for this guy?" It makes absolutely no sense to me why anyone would even have to think about where their vote is going this election.
Yeah, I don't get that either. Maybe they feel some sort of kinship with him because they're all over 70 and their lives are ending. I love how McCain tried claiming Western PA is so god-loving and all this bullshit. I swear, almost everything that comes out of that man's mouth is a lie. My mum already said if he ends up stealing the election we're bolting to Canada.

I work with an 85-year-old pharmacist and his catchphrase this whole election has been, "Its a shame to vote for McCain." At least there's one senior citizen using his brain. I also talked to someone who said they wouldn't vote for McCain just because they didn't like his wife and she didn't want her as first lady. I'll take all the Obama votes we can get but thats not a really good reason to vote for someone.

[saysmydoctor]

No, Jason. Obama/Biden rule. ;-)
No, you rule. Thank you so much for your commitment.

[gimone]

I'd vote for Obama. I don't agree with everything he stands for, but he'd definitely be a better president than McCain.

It don't think it would be too bad if McCain won, if it was only him. But it could be a catastrophe because his running mate is Palin. I don't ever want to see her in the White House.

Most people I know are pro-Obama.

Vote!

[matt_rawlings]

Sarah Palin sued to have polar bears taken off of the endangered species list and only obtained her first international passport within the last year. Anyone who has ever seen her engage in fiscal debate or even try to stutter out a coherent sentence on market regulation (youtube people) will notice how she is boarderline gah gah stupid.
She believes it was fair to recieve in excess of £100000 worth of designer clothes, paid for by campaign contributions because women in politics have to look good to men otherwise nobody would pay attention (thereby kicking feminist political theory in the balls, choosing to focus on her aesthetics to make up for her lack of substance)

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you one of the biggest fucktard vice presidential candidates ever.


http://mm.news-record.com/drupal/files/imagecache/zoom_view/files/Images/Sarah%20Palin%20mug%20082908.jpg

[matt_rawlings]

I'm pretty sure everyone knows where I stand.

Communism?


/jk

[matt_rawlings]

Sarah Palin genuinely offends me as an intelligent, middle class person.

If people in the UK don't read The Guardian newspaper, and even American's can check it online...probably the best written newspaper out there who have covered this whole election beautifully.


Jason, you will love this, here is Sarah Palin being owned by a Canadian radio station, who trick her into thinking she is talking to Nicolas Sarkozy (the French president)

Sarah Palin being a dumbass (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/deadlineusa/2008/nov/02/sarahpalin-johnmccain)

[lew_1987]

Sarah Palin sued to have polar bears taken off of the endangered species list and only obtained her first international passport within the last year. Anyone who has ever seen her engage in fiscal debate or even try to stutter out a coherent sentence on market regulation (youtube people) will notice how she is boarderline gah gah stupid.
She believes it was fair to recieve in excess of £100000 worth of designer clothes, paid for by campaign contributions because women in politics have to look good to men otherwise nobody would pay attention (thereby kicking feminist political theory in the balls, choosing to focus on her aesthetics to make up for her lack of substance)

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you one of the biggest fucktard vice presidential candidates ever.

I read that the clothes were either auctioned off or donated to charity afterwards, and the reason they spent so much was because the outfits were bought without consulting Palin on her size/preference/etc. However this is still extremely retarded as it's still money being wasted, and shows the kind of bullshit spin that they feel is necessary to their campaign.

As for the polar bears thing, she also said that she wanted them taken off the endangered species list because they 'get in the way of drilling for oil'. Now as the governor of a state which has a large amount of arctic wildlife, this is such a retarded opinion to have. This is someone we simply cannot allow into government anywhere. Wildlife should be a universal entity, not some property that is owned by the government of the country it lives.