George W. Bush: Credit where credit's due?

[IceTech]

I'm not a big George W. Bush fan. Roughly 70% of the American people don't seem to be either. However, as his administration is winding down, I think we should look past the vitriol and unnecessary emotion towards Bush, and give him the respect and dignity of serving as our 43rd president.

Bush was quick to act after 9/11, and he gave comfort and stability to our nation at a time when no one knew what was going to happen next. I personally think he squandered that good will when he was led astray by Cheney and other neo-cons to try and tie 9/11 to Iraq. But remember, as horrible of a war as Iraq is, it was JFK (a hero of the left) that led us into Vietnam which had well over 10 times as many U.S. casualties than Iraq. I think deep down Bush regrets how and why we went into Iraq, even though he will never admit it.

Bush has also led much humanitarian work that he has not been eager to shout from the rooftops. He has tripled aid to Africa for HIV/AIDS relief practically without any adoring media coverage (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/30/AR2006123000941.html).

I'm simply saying that unless you're part of the fringe, unreasonable "9/11 was an inside job", "Bush is a ruthless dictator" crowd, then you should give some credit where credit is due. Be thankful that America is one of the few countries (if not the only) country where a transfer of power to a new administration and political party could be ran so smoothly. Bush has been exceptionally gracious to President-elect Obama and his family. I think it should be recognized and he should be commended for it.

I'm very glad we are turning a chapter in American history, and am happy to see Bush leave. And though I disagree with him on many issues, as an American, I will always respect him and the office he held.

[mattybobviously]

I really like George W. Bush the guy. He seems like a nice dude, who has tried hard, and means well. He was just woefully unqualified to be president, and will be remembered as one of the worst in history.

[GiggsOho]

The man ran the country into the ground, and even the "good" you highlighted has its roots in being led by a neo-con/theo-con agenda. He gets no remorse from me. GTFO now, Dubya.

[IceTech]

Okay... I'm simply saying look past the emotional response of the times and let history give you some sort of perspective. Hoover, Nixon, or even look at what could have happened with Palin. It could be a lot worse, that's all I'm saying.

[jawstheme]

The man ran the country into the ground, and even the "good" you highlighted has its roots in being led by a neo-con/theo-con agenda. He gets no remorse from me. GTFO now, Dubya.

Yes. I give him no props and no remorse. He used a national tragedy to pass bullshit legislation that was in obvious violation of the constitution. I could go on but I think we've all heard it before.

[SgtFumunda]

I really like George W. Bush the guy. He seems like a nice dude, who has tried hard, and means well. He was just woefully unqualified to be president, and will be remembered as one of the worst in history.
This...mostly.

I sort of feel like a great deal of the responsibility lies with the American people for electing such an unqualified simpleton in to possibly the most powerful office in the world...twice.

[IceTech]

I really believe that if it wasn't for Bush, Barack Obama would not have been elected this time. Bush had one of the most diverse cabinets in history. Appointing Colin Powell as Sec. State and then Condi Rice as Sec. State spoke volumes in making Americans comfortable with African Americans in leadership positions.

Bush fucked up a lot, there's no doubt about it. But he doesn't deserve a lot of the ridiculous shit people constantly rail on him for.

[anamericangod]

I really believe that if it wasn't for Bush, Barack Obama would not have been elected this time. Bush had one of the most diverse cabinets in history. Appointing Colin Powell as Sec. State and then Condi Rice as Sec. State spoke volumes in making Americans comfortable with African Americans in leadership positions.

Bush fucked up a lot, there's no doubt about it. But he doesn't deserve a lot of the ridiculous shit people constantly rail on him for.

Lol yes he does.

[IceTech]

Lol yes he does.

How insightful.

[anamericangod]

How insightful.

Tell me what he doesn't deserve to be criticized for.

[IceTech]

Tell me what he doesn't deserve to be criticized for.

Orchestrating the 9/11 attacks.

Destroying our civil liberties (FDR put Japanese in internment camps, Kennedy wiretapped MLK, etc.)

Preventing an attack on U.S. soil for 7 years.

Expanding free trade.

Tripling humanitarian aid to Africa.

I'm just saying that he's not as evil and psychopathic as some people (especially young people) seem to think. And you always hear about how he is a dictator or Hitler-like or a war criminal. If you apply those standards, then literally every U.S. president is a war criminal (including soon to be President Obama). Read some history or look at every president's foreign policy and our national interests throughout the years.

[GiggsOho]

I really believe that if it wasn't for Bush, Barack Obama would not have been elected this time. Bush had one of the most diverse cabinets in history. Appointing Colin Powell as Sec. State and then Condi Rice as Sec. State spoke volumes in making Americans comfortable with African Americans in leadership positions.

Bush fucked up a lot, there's no doubt about it. But he doesn't deserve a lot of the ridiculous shit people constantly rail on him for.

He subverted the Constitution, destroyed civil liberties, and condoned torture, and then lies/distorts the truth when speaking to the American people. Like I said before, GTFO Bush.

[GiggsOho]

Orchestrating the 9/11 attacks.

Destroying our civil liberties (FDR put Japanese in internment camps, Kennedy wiretapped MLK, etc.)

Preventing an attack on U.S. soil for 7 years.

Expanding free trade.

Tripling humanitarian aid to Africa.

I'm just saying that he's not as evil and psychopathic as some people (especially young people) seem to think. And you always hear about how he is a dictator or Hitler-like or a war criminal. If you apply those standards, then literally every U.S. president is a war criminal (including soon to be President Obama). Read some history or look at every president's foreign policy and our national interests throughout the years.

Read this book and then get back to all of us on how you are sympathetic to Bush:

http://www.amazon.com/End-America-Letter-Warning-Patriot/dp/1933392797

[IceTech]

Right, Bush is a fascist and he's slowly destroying all of our rights until we become a totalistic theocracy. He let 9/11 happen to institute the project for a new american century. Now we are on a sure fire path to Nazi Germany.

Then why didn't Bush institute martial law and cancel the elections? How could he allow someone like Barack Obama to be elected, when Obama is ALREADY instituting plans to close down Guantanamo Bay and reverse Bush policies. Or is Obama part of the fascist-Bush conspiracy? Well, I suppose if I read this book then I will learn.

I already said the fringe conspiracy irrational Bush haters will not be able to have any perspective of presidential history. But I think all reasonable Americans can look forward and realize we have the ability to elect new leadership and learn from our mistakes.

[GiggsOho]

Right, Bush is a fascist and he's slowly destroying all of our rights until we become a totalistic theocracy. He let 9/11 happen to institute the project for a new american century. Now we are on a sure fire path to Nazi Germany.

Then why didn't Bush institute martial law and cancel the elections? How could he allow someone like Barack Obama to be elected, when Obama is ALREADY instituting plans to close down Guantanamo Bay and reverse Bush policies. Or is Obama part of the fascist-Bush conspiracy? Well, I suppose if I read this book then I will learn.

I already said the fringe conspiracy irrational Bush haters will not be able to have any perspective of presidential history. But I think all reasonable Americans can look forward and realize we have the ability to elect new leadership and learn from our mistakes.


Alright, I can tell by your post count you have been around here for about a week, so you have no idea of the various threads where all that 9/11Truth-Zeitgeist-Inside Job shit gets shot to shit, most of the time, I'm the one trashing it. It's horseshit. Plain and simple.

Furthermore, the book within the first 4 pages goes "This book is a not book saying America is turning into Nazi Germany, to say that is ludicrous, it will never happen." But it also makes the point that whenever the sentence "America is a fascist nation!" is brought up and everyone automatically thinks The Third Reich and Holocaust and Hitler. Move past this and open your eyes a little bit.

The book examines how each fascist society, whether it be Stalin, Mussolini, Pinochet slowly closed off civil liberties to make sure dissent was extremely difficult, and ultimately criminal. It also shows how the government condones torture (Gitmo), has set up an independent army (Blackwater), and has a list through the TSA of over 700,000 people that are to be "watched" as they travel. The author herself is on the list. This isn't a matter of debate - it's fact.

Furthermore, under the new leadership, it should be important that every one gets in politician's ears to make sure this shit stops. I don't want my phone calls tapped, I don't want my e-mails screened, and I want to be able to voice my complaints with the government without fear of being arrested/hurt. Why? BECAUSE I WAS GUARANTEED THOSE RIGHTS UNDER THE CONSTITUTION.

Since you seem to think this book is left-wing lunacy (NYT best-seller btw), I'll give you a YouTube clip of the woman talking about the book. Sit tight, its 47 minutes:

RjALf12PAWc

[xshady121]

Read this book and then get back to all of us on how you are sympathetic to Bush:

http://www.amazon.com/End-America-Letter-Warning-Patriot/dp/1933392797

I've heard her speak before and I would never give her the royalty money. I'd rather sit in a room and listen to Keith Olberman blab on. Anyone can point to a piece of propaganda and use it to make a point like you did here.

[xshady121]

He subverted the Constitution, destroyed civil liberties, and condoned torture, and then lies/distorts the truth when speaking to the American people. Like I said before, GTFO Bush.

So he did what Wilson and FDR did.

edit: let's throw Lincoln in there too while were at it.

[GiggsOho]

I've heard her speak before and I would never give her the royalty money. I'd rather sit in a room and listen to Keith Olberman blab on. Anyone can point to a piece of propaganda and use it to make a point like you did here.


Lol, she absolutely makes this statement worthless about 2 minutes into the video, but thanks for playing.

So he did what Wilson and FDR did.

edit: let's throw Lincoln in there too while were at it.

she mentions all of them in the book, especially the Espionage Act, and how it was all eventually beaten back by the people. READ. THE. BOOK.

[xshady121]

Lol, she absolutely makes this statement worthless about 2 minutes into the video, but thanks for playing.



she mentions all of them in the book, especially the Espionage Act, and how it was all eventually beaten back by the people. READ. THE. BOOK.

Hello, Naomi Wolf is that you?

[wesgemm08]

Bush gets a B- at best for his dealings with 9/11. He could have done a lot more to rally the country and get normal middle class people more involved. Instead, he told people to go shopping.

[xshady121]

Bush gets a B- at best for his dealings with 9/11. He could have done a lot more to rally the country and get normal middle class people more involved. Instead, he told people to go shopping.

Yeah, that 90% approval rating was a complete accident. Had anyone else handled that, it would have been a 95%.

Seriously, you have to nitpick everything

JFK had the cuban missile crisis and bush had 9/11. I don't see why you have to be playing this partisan bullshit.

[GiggsOho]

Hello, Naomi Wolf is that you?

Hello, condescending ignorance, is that you? It is! Get fucked!

[PopPunkKid]

This was a really unexpected, mature, post on IceTech's behalf. Really was not expecting to see something like this.

I agree that Bush definetly gets more shit from people than he deserves. The media hated him from the get-go, and through the years they've basically made him seem like Satan. No, he was not a good president by any means, but think of all the difficulties we've had in the past 8 years with 9/11, the war, the economy, Hurricane Katrina, etc. He definetly had to deal with much harder situations than the Clinton administration did. Sure Bush could've handled some of those aspects much better, but could he have PREVENTED them? Hell no.

It always gives me major lols when I see "9/11 was an inside job" bumper stickers or hear people saying "9/11 would've been prevented if Bush wasn't in office". What a joke.

I too am glad that Obama is taking office, but I do agree that Bush deserves more respect than he typically gets.

[IceTech]

Look, I don't agree with the Patriot Act or illegal wiretapping. I'm simply saying it is a testament to America's greatness that we can elect new leadership (such as Obama) who can actually mitigate or reverse a lot of these policies.

Also, if you look at history, you will find out that the U.S. has adopted many "fascist" policies. Lincoln suspended habeus corpus rights for his own citizens and imprisoned war dissenters. FDR detained Japanese Americans. These heinous acts are prima facie ten times more disturbing then what Bush has done.

I agree the military industrial complex is egregious, but its been around a lot longer than Bush has. I think you give Bush too much credit. He isn't exactly doing a knock out job of leading us to fascism with that 70% disapproval rating and about 90% of the country thinking we're heading in the wrong direction.

But alas, I will try to find the book and read it. If any revelations are brought to me, I'll be sure to get back to you.

It should be noted that I voted for Obama and think Bush was a disaster, I'm just arguing to let him leave office in peace and relax the emotional hatred toward the man.

[lauren<3s music]

I'm not a big George W. Bush fan. Roughly 70% of the American people don't seem to be either. However, as his administration is winding down, I think we should look past the vitriol and unnecessary emotion towards Bush, and give him the respect and dignity of serving as our 43rd president.

Bush was quick to act after 9/11, and he gave comfort and stability to our nation at a time when no one knew what was going to happen next. I personally think he squandered that good will when he was led astray by Cheney and other neo-cons to try and tie 9/11 to Iraq. But remember, as horrible of a war as Iraq is, it was JFK (a hero of the left) that led us into Vietnam which had well over 10 times as many U.S. casualties than Iraq. I think deep down Bush regrets how and why we went into Iraq, even though he will never admit it.

Bush has also led much humanitarian work that he has not been eager to shout from the rooftops. He has tripled aid to Africa for HIV/AIDS relief practically without any adoring media coverage (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/30/AR2006123000941.html) (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/30/AR2006123000941.html%29).

I'm simply saying that unless you're part of the fringe, unreasonable "9/11 was an inside job", "Bush is a ruthless dictator" crowd, then you should give some credit where credit is due. Be thankful that America is one of the few countries (if not the only) country where a transfer of power to a new administration and political party could be ran so smoothly. Bush has been exceptionally gracious to President-elect Obama and his family. I think it should be recognized and he should be commended for it.

I'm very glad we are turning a chapter in American history, and am happy to see Bush leave. And though I disagree with him on many issues, as an American, I will always respect him and the office he held.
Wow. Just wow. He is the President and deserves respect. His policies in Iraq have been bullshit and his humanitarian aid to Africa CUT birth control and increased abstinence only education, which is not helpful in reducing the transmission of HIV.

oh and lets examine gitmo for a minute...

[xshady121]

Look, I don't agree with the Patriot Act or illegal wiretapping. I'm simply saying it is a testament to America's greatness that we can elect new leadership (such as Obama) who can actually mitigate or reverse a lot of these policies.

Also, if you look at history, you will find out that the U.S. has adopted many "fascist" policies. Lincoln suspended habeus corpus rights for his own citizens and imprisoned war dissenters. FDR detained Japanese Americans. These heinous acts are prima facie ten times more disturbing then what Bush has done.

I agree the military industrial complex is egregious, but its been around a lot longer than Bush has. I think you give Bush too much credit. He isn't exactly doing a knock out job of leading us to fascism with that 70% disapproval rating and about 90% of the country thinking we're heading in the wrong direction.

But alas, I will try to find the book and read it. If any revelations are brought to me, I'll be sure to get back to you.

It should be noted that I voted for Obama and think Bush was a disaster, I'm just arguing to let him leave office in peace and relax the emotional hatred toward the man.

Truman had the lowest (up until now) approval rating when he left office (sans Nixon of course), but scholars constantly place him in the top 15 or so presidents of all time.

[Adeniz19]

Yeah, that 90% approval rating was a complete accident. Had anyone else handled that, it would have been a 95%.

Seriously, you have to nitpick everything

JFK had the cuban missile crisis and bush had 9/11. I don't see why you have to be playing this partisan bullshit.hilarious, coming from you

[GiggsOho]

Look, I don't agree with the Patriot Act or illegal wiretapping. I'm simply saying it is a testament to America's greatness that we can elect new leadership (such as Obama) who can actually mitigate or reverse a lot of these policies.

Doesn't let Bush off the hook by any means.

Also, if you look at history, you will find out that the U.S. has adopted many "fascist" policies. Lincoln suspended habeus corpus rights for his own citizens and imprisoned war dissenters. FDR detained Japanese Americans. These heinous acts are prima facie ten times more disturbing then what Bush has done.
Habeus Corpus and imprisonment were just as wrong as then as they are now. But 100,000 Iraqis dead or a war waged by information HE HIMSELF HAS ADMITTED WAS WRONG? Absolutely not.

FDR and Lincoln's positive accomplishments outweigh the bad. Bush has NO POSITIVES.

I agree the military industrial complex is egregious, but its been around a lot longer than Bush has. I think you give Bush too much credit. He isn't exactly doing a knock out job of leading us to fascism with that 70% disapproval rating and about 90% of the country thinking we're heading in the wrong direction.
People aren't that dumb, especially when you start fucking with their money.

But alas, I will try to find the book and read it. If any revelations are brought to me, I'll be sure to get back to you.

I promise the book does not come off as condescending or attacking or fearful, it's actually quite inspiring.

It should be noted that I voted for Obama and think Bush was a disaster, I'm just arguing to let him leave office in peace and relax the emotional hatred toward the man.
You have more compassion than I do. The guy was a royal fuck-up, plain and simple.

[xshady121]

hilarious, coming from you

Not true. I give credit where it's due.

[IceTech]

I'm confident Bush will not experience the same fate as Truman. Simply because American style democracy is close to impossible, practically speaking, to be implemented in the Middle East.

[lauren<3s music]

I'm confident Bush will not experience the same fate as Truman. Simply because American style democracy is close to impossible, practically speaking, to be implemented in the Middle East.
really because already his wife's bio is an easier sell than his. he is responsible for the deterioration of our country and the erosion of our founding principals. sure he's not evil, but he deserves all of the shit he gets. HE allowed cheney and rove to run rampant, HE refused to listen to colin powell, HE went into to iraq with no exit strategy. there is no excuse for stupidity of that nature, even if he is a nice guy.

[IceTech]

Alright I should have figured Bush is pretty much indefensible around these parts. For that, I apologize. Just realize that politics is politics and the fact that our country can change is amazing.

[xshady121]

I'm confident Bush will not experience the same fate as Truman. Simply because American style democracy is close to impossible, practically speaking, to be implemented in the Middle East.

He could see something like Eisenhower. Eisenhower was considered to be a very lackluster president and not really doing anything in office. However, it was Fred Greenstein's "The Hidden Hand Presidency" that truly showed what went on behind the scenes, and gave Americans and historians alike a glimpse of what really happened.

That turned out good for Eisenhower's rank in history, and he is remembered as more of an active rather than a passive president.

[GiggsOho]

Alright I should have figured Bush is pretty much indefensible around these parts. For that, I apologize. Just realize that politics is politics and the fact that our country can change is amazing.

Agreed. Democracy is beautiful thing.

[xshady121]

Agreed. Democracy is beautiful thing.

Where is lunchforthesky to remind us that we're not a democracy?

Everytime someone mentions democracy I feel that lunchforthesky is there to correct it

[wesgemm08]

Yeah, that 90% approval rating was a complete accident. Had anyone else handled that, it would have been a 95%.

Seriously, you have to nitpick everything

JFK had the cuban missile crisis and bush had 9/11. I don't see why you have to be playing this partisan bullshit.

The approval rating= short term. Of course people are going to rally behind the government/president after such a terrible attack on the country... Looking back on the events in 2008 terms, he did a lot of good things, but could have got the general public more involved then just telling them to go out shopping. Also, I have never discussed JFK on this website, so I don't understand where that is coming from.

[Adeniz19]

Not true. I give credit where it's due.
Says the guy that was just talking shit about FDR

[lauren<3s music]

Says the guy that was just talking shit about FDR
:appl:

you are SO right. ugh.

[LastPlaceRocks]

This isn't going to end well.

[xshady121]

Says the guy that was just talking shit about FDR

Yeah, I don't like constitutional dictators. Especially those that don't know what they're doing

[captainhampton]

yeah this thread should go well. I guess I could add this to keep things interesting. we haven't been attacked on our soil since 9/11. credit is due there.

[apoemtothedead]

He knows his baseball.

[Adeniz19]

yeah this thread should go well. I guess I could add this to keep things interesting. we haven't been attacked on our soil since 9/11. credit is due there.9/11 also happened on his watch

[apoemtothedead]

yeah this thread should go well. I guess I could add this to keep things interesting. we haven't been attacked on our soil since 9/11. credit is due there.
To be fair, it's very unlikely we would have been attacked again if Gore or Kerry was President.

[captainhampton]

To be fair, it's very unlikely we would have been attacked again if Gore or Kerry was President.

sure that could've been the case, but we don't know that. what we do know is that in terms of preventing other attacks from taking place, he has been successful.

[WhoSaidThat?]

really because already his wife's bio is an easier sell than his. he is responsible for the deterioration of our country and the erosion of our founding principals. sure he's not evil, but he deserves all of the shit he gets. HE allowed cheney and rove to run rampant, HE refused to listen to colin powell, HE went into to iraq with no exit strategy. there is no excuse for stupidity of that nature, even if he is a nice guy.
I thank you on behalf of everyone with at least a semblance of common sense.

[LastPlaceRocks]

To be fair, it's very unlikely we would have been attacked again if Gore or Kerry was President.
How would we have not been attacked on 9/11 if Gore was President?
EDIT: Sorry, misread this.

[Adeniz19]

How would we have not been attacked on 9/11 if Gore was President?he didn't say that

[LastPlaceRocks]

Yeah, just realized I misread it. That's what I get for being up still.

[Burn That Shit]

So he did what Wilson and FDR did.

edit: let's throw Lincoln in there too while were at it.

Reagen was a sick prez, d00d.

[open mind]

the man and most of his administration deserve to be put in prison for a very long time.

[skellorock]

I'm not saying this as just a right-leaning moderate, because I hardly think the Administration has done the best job in several areas. But anyone who thinks that Bush is some heartless tyrant, I'm sorry that is just incorrect. It's like the old saying, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" and I believe that appropriatley sums up his areas of flaw. For him to also be the sole blame of all our countries problems is absolutley ridiculous, thats a trend that should have died with the Hoover years, everyone ought to know that a president's power is far more limited than of someone you can point fingers at. All in all I think Bush has done good in many ways, that unfortunatly gets over-shadowed by the mistakes of more than one individual, which I think he's a victim of circumstances. Do I think he's one of the worst presidents ever? No, do I think he's the worst in the last 50 years? No, I mean he's certainly not gonna rank up there with Reagan or JFK, but I dont think he's as bad as someone like Carter, who is a great person and humanitarian, but a pathetic excuse for a leader.

[GiggsOho]

I'm not saying this as just a right-leaning moderate, because I hardly think the Administration has done the best job in several areas. But anyone who thinks that Bush is some heartless tyrant, I'm sorry that is just incorrect. It's like the old saying, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" and I believe that appropriatley sums up his areas of flaw. For him to also be the sole blame of all our countries problems is absolutley ridiculous, thats a trend that should have died with the Hoover years, everyone ought to know that a president's power is far more limited than of someone you can point fingers at. All in all I think Bush has done good in many ways, that unfortunatly gets over-shadowed by the mistakes of more than one individual, which I think he's a victim of circumstances. Do I think he's one of the worst presidents ever? No, do I think he's the worst in the last 50 years? No, I mean he's certainly not gonna rank up there with Reagan or JFK, but I dont think he's as bad as someone like Carter, who is a great person and humanitarian, but a pathetic excuse for a leader.


I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what good this man has done.

[jawstheme]

sure that could've been the case, but we don't know that. what we do know is that in terms of preventing other attacks from taking place, he has been successful.


Oh please. Yeah good thing we got Iraq and those WMDs under control. Oh wait...

But hey atleast we got Bin Laden, the man behind the attacks. Shit...

[Jason Tate]

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. In 8 years if that's all you can hang your hat on .... you deserve your approval rating and the historical record of: worst of all time.

[Jason Tate]

sure that could've been the case, but we don't know that. what we do know is that in terms of preventing other attacks from taking place, he has been successful.
This is the most insane argument of all time.

It's like me saying it didn't rain for the past week so it must have been that dance and chant I did on Sunday night.

[WhoSaidThat?]

This is the most insane argument of all time.

It's like me saying it didn't rain for the past week so it must have been that dance and chant I did on Sunday night.
Hahaha, I need to find a way to work that last sentence in a conversation.

[1Roth4]

How has the Patriot Act hurt anyone in this forum? Answer me that?

[WhoSaidThat?]

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. In 8 years if that's all you can hang your hat on .... you deserve your approval rating and the historical record of: worst of all time.
To quote Homer Simpson: Worst of all time so far.

Not to mitigate from what Dubya has done, I just love to quote The Simpsons. :simpson:

[1Roth4]

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. In 8 years if that's all you can hang your hat on .... you deserve your approval rating and the historical record of: worst of all time.

It is funny how history changes over time though. Truman's approval ratings were incredibly low. He's seen in a little different light now

[windmillninja]

The hyperbole's so rich I could eat it.

[xshady121]

How has the Patriot Act hurt anyone in this forum? Answer me that?

Not even I will defend the patriot act.

It is funny how history changes over time though. Truman's approval ratings were incredibly low. He's seen in a little different light now

I agree with you here. The same can be said about Eisenhower (he was remembered as being a hands off president, when in fact we found out years later that he was actively involved).

[Jason Tate]

How has the Patriot Act hurt anyone in this forum? Answer me that?
Odds are without a hefty legal fee - you won't know if it was used against you unless you're arrested. However, it's the clandestine nature and the intrusion into American's lives that is the problem.

[Jason Tate]

It is funny how history changes over time though. Truman's approval ratings were incredibly low. He's seen in a little different light now
I'd be willing to bet over time his approval raiting will get even worse.

[DonnerParty666]

im not sure how we'll look at this guy down the road...like the posts above said about truman, how his approval rating has risen. Hell, even JFK's has dropped...i have respect for Bush, he was our president. He was nowhere near the best, but i think it would be terrible to blame all of the woes on him. Im happy theres a new president (didn't vote for the guy), but he has had his two terms, and we need some fixin'.

and to think,
i used to be one of those guys that said "bush is evil kill em!", but thankfully, i grew up

[1Roth4]

Odds are without a hefty legal fee - you won't know if it was used against you unless you're arrested. However, it's the clandestine nature and the intrusion into American's lives that is the problem.

If it stops another attack on American soil, is it worth it? If 9/11 could have been stopped, would it make the surrender of those civil liberties justified?

[1Roth4]

I'd be willing to bet over time his approval raiting will get even worse.

I would take that bet in a heartbeat

[wrppdarndyrfngr]

How has the Patriot Act hurt anyone in this forum? Answer me that?

So if something doesn't personally affect you , it can't be wrong?

Also under the Patriot Act the government could arrest you without a warrent. not provide you with a lawyer, not try you in front of a judge, not let you provide evidence in you favor, hold you indefinately ,and also would not have to tell anyone you know why you were "arrested" or "taken in for questioning". So if it did affect anyone on here doubt they would be able to say anything about it.

maybe you should ask the the prisoners in Gitmo if the Patriot Act has personally affected them?

[1Roth4]

So if something doesn't personally affect you , it can't be wrong?

Also under the Patriot Act the government could arrest you without a warrent. not provide you with a lawyer, not try you in front of a judge, not let you provide evidence in you favor, hold you indefinately ,and also would not have to tell anyone you know why you were "arrested" or "taken in for questioning". So if it did affect anyone on here doubt they would be able to say anything about it.

maybe you should ask the the prisoners in Gitmo if the Patriot Act has personally affected them?

If you have a tie with terrorist organizations, yes, The Patriot Act may not be the best legislation for you, but, the fact is that terrorist attacks have been averted because of the Patriot Act. It's an unfortunate situation, and act of legislation, but it was implemented to keep Americans safe.

[boykosaurus]

How has the Patriot Act hurt anyone in this forum? Answer me that?

heh, I wouldn't be surprised if there is a file on me somewhere for all the research I do on the Middle East.

[1Roth4]

Are some innocent people going to be detained, and imprisoned because of this act, Of Course! But people are wrongfully convicted every day, even when they are given the right to an attorney, and a trial.

[Jason Tate]

Are some innocent people going to be detained, and imprisoned because of this act, Of Course! But people are wrongfully convicted every day, even when they are given the right to an attorney, and a trial.
That in no way justifies it. In one situation due process is met, in the other it's not.

[boykosaurus]

:hitself:

[redalibi]

I get the feeling you want us to "admit" he wasn't a bad guy. The truth is he's done way more harm than good. I can't wait till he gets the hell out.

[Jason Tate]

If you have a tie with terrorist organizations, yes, The Patriot Act may not be the best legislation for you, but, the fact is that terrorist attacks have been averted because of the Patriot Act. It's an unfortunate situation, and act of legislation, but it was implemented to keep Americans safe.
I'd take privacy and liberty over "protection" any day of the week.

[Jason Tate]

If it stops another attack on American soil, is it worth it? If 9/11 could have been stopped, would it make the surrender of those civil liberties justified?
No.

[Jason Tate]

I would take that bet in a heartbeat
20 years, 1 grand.

[1Roth4]

That in no way justifies it. In one situation due process is met, in the other it's not.

But in both circumstances the outcome is the same.

Acts of Legislation, and the Justice system are imperfect. But you need to have a Utilitarian mentality.

[1Roth4]

I'd take privacy and liberty over "protection" any day of the week.

your privacy and liberties haven't been affected. you have no ties to illegal operations.

if another attack on american soil took place, to a much larger scale than 9/11, would your opinion change? or would you hold on and say, "My liberties are more important than the safety of my fellow citizens"

[Jason Tate]

But in both circumstances the outcome is the same.

Acts of Legislation, and the Justice system are imperfect. But you need to have a Utilitarian mentality.
The outcome is not what is important - the system is what is important. Otherwise the Constitution and those that wrote, fought, died for it over the years ... mean nothing. It's there for a reason, we don't just ignore it when it suits us.

Stealing a soda and drinking it or buying a soda and drinking both result in the same outcome: a drank beverage. However, one is a crime. The outcome doesn't matter when the act itself is wrong.

[wrppdarndyrfngr]

If you have a tie with terrorist organizations, yes, The Patriot Act may not be the best legislation for you, but, the fact is that terrorist attacks have been averted because of the Patriot Act. It's an unfortunate situation, and act of legislation, but it was implemented to keep Americans safe.

The "If you are innocent, Why do you care?" argument with the Patriot Act is sad.

its about my rights as a American citizen.
The rights this country was founded on.

My rights should not be taken away.

The more we let them get away with now, the more the government can take away later.
whose says they won't come back the next time there is an terrorist attack and say "ok now we are going to have National IDs that we can track you whereever you go." then its "now we are going to have national curfew, dont worry its for you safety"

Its a very slippery slope.

And no its not paranoia.

Please read 1984 . Brave New World, and Fahrenheit 451

[1Roth4]

20 years, 1 grand.

thats a tempting bet

[Adeniz19]

Are some innocent people going to be detained, and imprisoned because of this act, Of Course! But people are wrongfully convicted every day, even when they are given the right to an attorney, and a trial.haha wow...

[Jason Tate]

your privacy and liberties haven't been affected. you have no ties to illegal operations.

if another attack on american soil took place, to a much larger scale than 9/11, would your opinion change? or would you hold on and say, "My liberties are more important than the safety of my fellow citizens"
You don't need to have ties to illegal operations to be impacted. There are countless stories of innocent people being wiretapped -- sexual conversations broadcast between American citizens and their wives -- and others. If my library record was tapped (which I wouldn't be surprised if it was based on what I read) - then that is an invasion of privacy that is guaranteed to me by my Constitution.

"Any society that would give up liberty to gain security will deserve neither and lose both."

[wrppdarndyrfngr]

the fact is that terrorist attacks have been averted because of the Patriot Act. .

You can not prove this.

The absence of evidence is not evidence.

Becasue A happened and B never happend does not prove that A had any effect on B

[Mercy Medical]

Orchestrating the 9/11 attacks.

Destroying our civil liberties (FDR put Japanese in internment camps, Kennedy wiretapped MLK, etc.)

Preventing an attack on U.S. soil for 7 years.

Expanding free trade.

Tripling humanitarian aid to Africa.

I'm just saying that he's not as evil and psychopathic as some people (especially young people) seem to think. And you always hear about how he is a dictator or Hitler-like or a war criminal. If you apply those standards, then literally every U.S. president is a war criminal (including soon to be President Obama). Read some history or look at every president's foreign policy and our national interests throughout the years.That's not really much of an accomplishment considering the fact that it's rare that there is an attack on US soil. This can be said about many Presidents.

[1Roth4]

The "If you are innocent, Why do you care?" argument with the Patriot Act is sad.

its about my rights as a American citizen.
The rights this country was founded on.

My rights should not be taken away.

The more we let them get away with now, the more the government can take away later.
whose says they won't come back the next time there is an terrorist attack and say "ok now we are going to have National IDs that we can track you whereever you go." then its "now we are going to have national curfew, dont worry its for you safety"

Its a very slippery slope.

And no its not paranoia.

Please read 1984 . Brave New World, and Fahrenheit 451

Oh I completely agree! It is a very slippery slope. That doesn't negate the fact that it is serving a purpose. I very much doubt it will be a permanent act of legislation. The political process will have a way of correcting outdated legislation.

[1Roth4]

You can not prove this.

The absence of evidence is not evidence.

Becasue A happened and B never happend does not prove that A had any effect on B

I had read a story on a threat against the Brooklyn Bridge being discovered. And without the Patriot Act, it would have been too late.

I will try and find it.

[Jason Tate]

I had read a story on a threat against the Brooklyn Bridge being discovered. And without the Patriot Act, it would have been too late.

I will try and find it.
That doesn't change his argument at all. You can't show that "without the Patriot Act, it would have been too late."

[Mercy Medical]

I had read a story on a threat against the Brooklyn Bridge being discovered. And without the Patriot Act, it would have been too late.

I will try and find it.
How do you know that story wasn't contrived somehow to make you believe the Patriot Act is indeed effective?

[1Roth4]

That doesn't change his argument at all. You can't show that "without the Patriot Act, it would have been too late."

Oh I see. You're right. I can't. But I think it is difficult to argue that the Patriot Act doesn't make these investigations easier.

[PlacesToGo]

george bush was worse than Reagan and in terms of shittiness, thats real shitty

[1Roth4]

How do you know that story wasn't contrived somehow to make you believe the Patriot Act is indeed effective?

All I am saying is it makes these investigations more efficient. It cuts out a lot of un-needed red tape, because time isn't always luxury they're given.

But I do see your point.

[1Roth4]

I am sure I would feel a little differently if I were an American myself, so it is tough for me to gage what it is like to have civil liberties denied.

But as an outsider, at the time of September 11th, if my government told me this would prevent more attacks like this, I would surrender some liberties, yes. All the truths about the effect of the Patriot Act should come out after Obama shuts down Gitmo. If he does.

[Mercy Medical]

All I am saying is it makes these investigations more efficient. It cuts out a lot of un-needed red tape, because time isn't always luxury they're given.

But I do see your point.
Yea, but at the same time, it's at the cost of citizen's privacy and if people start thinking that the benefits outweigh the losses in this situation there's no telling what it could lead to next.

[xshady121]

I'd take privacy and liberty over "protection" any day of the week.

Agreed.

[xshady121]

george bush was worse than Reagan and in terms of shittiness, thats real shitty

You're confusing Jimmy Carter with Ronald Reagan.

[Machu505]

Not even I will defend the patriot act.

So we can find some common ground?

[xshady121]

All I am saying is it makes these investigations more efficient. It cuts out a lot of un-needed red tape, because time isn't always luxury they're given.

But I do see your point.

Stop regurgitating back to us the Bush propaganda on the Patriot Act. That is the intended result, but what has actually happened is law enforcement agencies claim everything criminal relates to the Patriot Act. Truth is, it's used mostly for investigations that have no relation to "terrorism".

[xshady121]

So we can find some common ground?

Yes. That's the only thing that is keeping me from jumping aboard the Jindal ship, his stance on the Patriot Act.

[Machu505]

Yes. That's the only thing that is keeping me from jumping aboard the Jindal ship, his stance on the Patriot Act.

Bipartisanship ftw.

[WhoSaidThat?]

Bush sucks. Why does that not go without saying?

[Praetor]

Yes. That's the only thing that is keeping me from jumping aboard the Jindal ship, his stance on the Patriot Act.
You seem to be knowledgeable on the right-wing side of politics, is his abortion policy really as conservative as his wikipedia page says it is?

[xshady121]

You seem to be knowledgeable on the right-wing side of politics, is his abortion policy really as conservative as his wikipedia page says it is?

To be honest, I keep seeing that he is "quoted" as saying he would be against abortions, even if it is saving the mothers life. All links (on the wiki article and a quick google check) either come up not saying that or with broken links. The best i could find is

“I am 100 percent anti-abortion with no exceptions. I believe all life is precious.”

But even at that, to say that he is against aborting a fetus to save the mothers life is quite the leap. I think his statements on the issue are too vague at this point. His voting record as a rep is very hard-line anti-abortion (http://www.ontheissues.org/House/Bobby_Jindal.htm)

He has come out and said he's pro-life, but not to the extent wiki would have you believe. I would be interested in seeing someone ask him more about his abortion policies and have him build upon it, not just give a quick "I'm pro life" answer.

[1Roth4]

Stop regurgitating back to us the Bush propaganda on the Patriot Act. That is the intended result, but what has actually happened is law enforcement agencies claim everything criminal relates to the Patriot Act. Truth is, it's used mostly for investigations that have no relation to "terrorism".

by no means am i calling you out, but show me an instance where what you say is true. Because I feel like I am pretty up to speed with current news, and I haven't come across such a case.

[1Roth4]

Yea, but at the same time, it's at the cost of citizen's privacy and if people start thinking that the benefits outweigh the losses in this situation there's no telling what it could lead to next.

agreed. But thats why you have more than one party, and a limit term on Presidents as well as House Members, or Congress, I guess it would be in the States.

[GiggsOho]

lolol at the defense of the Patriot Act. There are a good number of legislators that don't have any idea of the full ramifications of the Act. It's a complete bastardization of the Constitution, and I hope people will scream till their lungs are sore at their congressmen and women to at least look over it, and take out the stuff that subverts the Constitution.

[WhoSaidThat?]

lolol at the defense of the Patriot Act. There are a good number of legislators that don't have any idea of the full ramifications of the Act. It's a complete bastardization of the Constitution, and I hope people will scream till their lungs are sore at their congressmen and women to at least look over it, and take out the stuff that subverts the Constitution.
Three cheers for this dude. Hip Hip...

[1Roth4]

lolol at the defense of the Patriot Act. There are a good number of legislators that don't have any idea of the full ramifications of the Act. It's a complete bastardization of the Constitution, and I hope people will scream till their lungs are sore at their congressmen and women to at least look over it, and take out the stuff that subverts the Constitution.

thats a good point. Let it be known that this is not a unilateral bill by George Bush. He does sign bills into legislation, but there is a process.

The bill was introduced by Frank James Sensenbrenner.

Only 66 members of the House opposed the bill, while 357 approved.
In the Senate, only 1 person opposed the bill, while 98 supported it.

For a Bill that is introduced on Oct. 23, 2001, and signed into legislation by October 26, 2001, that is a quick process.

At this time in the House, 221 Republicans sat, while 212 Democrats had seats, and in the Senate, 50 Democrats and 50 Republicans made up the Senate.

A president using a veto power on a bill passed with that much support would not have occurred.

If the Patriot Act was so unconstitutional, it should be the job of the U.S Supreme Court to interpret Constitutional Rights, and use Judicial Review to regulate how it is used. Now why hasn't this been done?

[Burn That Shit]

If it stops another attack on American soil, is it worth it? If 9/11 could have been stopped, would it make the surrender of those civil liberties justified?

Funny thing about that is that it could've been stopped, way before the patriot act was passed.

[xshady121]

thats a good point. Let it be known that this is not a unilateral bill by George Bush. He does sign bills into legislation, but there is a process.

The bill was introduced by Frank James Sensenbrenner.

Only 66 members of the House opposed the bill, while 357 approved.
In the Senate, only 1 person opposed the bill, while 98 supported it.

For a Bill that is introduced on Oct. 23, 2001, and signed into legislation by October 26, 2001, that is a quick process.

At this time in the House, 221 Republicans sat, while 212 Democrats had seats, and in the Senate, 50 Democrats and 50 Republicans made up the Senate.

A president using a veto power on a bill passed with that much support would not have occurred.

If the Patriot Act was so unconstitutional, it should be the job of the U.S Supreme Court to interpret Constitutional Rights, and use Judicial Review to regulate how it is used. Now why hasn't this been done?

1) The bill was endorsed by Bush. It's his pet project. He encouraged congress to come up with it, and he encouraged them to pass it again a few years ago.

2) Courts generally don't rule on issues that could be unconstitutional when the country is at "war" , they wait til it's over. That isn't exactly the best way of putting it, but what I'm trying to reference is Ex Parte Milligan. Even though the courts decided to strike down Lincoln's suspension of Habeous Corpous, they did so AFTER the war was over. They wouldn't have thought of hearing Milligan until after the war. They generally don't disagree with Presidents during a matter of national urgency (The Civil War, the Patriot Act,, etc..) the only time I can think of the supreme court ruling against the acting president during a war was during Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co vs Sawyer (under Truman). They agreed 6-3 that Truman couldn't seize the companies, but had he utilized the Taft-Hartley Act, they said they would have agreed with him seizing it.

Point of this post: The courts do rule against the president, just AFTER the fact. The last thing they want to do is get in the way. It's easier to go back and revise it after the fact (not saying I agree with it, just it's generally the position the courts take)

[GiggsOho]

thats a good point. Let it be known that this is not a unilateral bill by George Bush. He does sign bills into legislation, but there is a process.

The bill was introduced by Frank James Sensenbrenner.

Only 66 members of the House opposed the bill, while 357 approved.
In the Senate, only 1 person opposed the bill, while 98 supported it.

For a Bill that is introduced on Oct. 23, 2001, and signed into legislation by October 26, 2001, that is a quick process.

At this time in the House, 221 Republicans sat, while 212 Democrats had seats, and in the Senate, 50 Democrats and 50 Republicans made up the Senate.

A president using a veto power on a bill passed with that much support would not have occurred.

If the Patriot Act was so unconstitutional, it should be the job of the U.S Supreme Court to interpret Constitutional Rights, and use Judicial Review to regulate how it is used. Now why hasn't this been done?

It was 342 pages at is birth, and has over 40 addendums and additions to it. Furthermore, no one looked at because it was supposed to sunset in 2005, so everyone (purely speculation) thought 'what's the use, it's all gone in 4 years', until Bush signed it into law again in 2006. It's long, obscure, and full of grey area that people who are actually looking it over (ACLU) are having trouble grasping where the lines are drawn in the sand, because the lines and loopholes are so big, it's hard to differentiate what the hell the word of the law means.

Case in point, people who get sent to Guantanamo are people deemed "enemy combatants" by the President. There is no written statement as to what that actually means. So, think about that for a second - anyone the President deems an enemy, they can be shipped off to Gitmo without being charged or knowing what they are charged with, without a lawyer, and possibly tortured. Again, this isn't just something I speak of hypothetically, there are many documented reports of people who had NOTHING to do with ANYTHING CLOSE to terrorism being shipped of to Gitmo, and all of it is technically legal under the Patriot Act.

No one is looking at it because there are enough Bush cronies stashed in positions across the board to make sure stuff like the Patriot has basically a snowball's chance in hell of ever being brought before committees to go "wait, wtf, this says WHAT?"

Side semi-related note: There was a piece of pork attached to a part of the original law, the Homeland Security Act, that has a part called "General Vaccine Provisions." Basically it said you can't sue this pharmaceutical company who makes small pox Vaccines, Eli Lilly, if you have a problem with the Mercury component in them. Well, the law was so generic that it basically said you can't sue Eli Lilly for any vaccine problems.

Guess which company had a ton of lawsuits levied against it because it's high mercury levels were causing autism in kids? And guess which company dumped money into Bush's coffers in 2000? Guess which company had it's CEO's move from their jobs to spots in the Homeland Security Council?

It's since been changed, but it was the law at one point. Bush enacted it.

This is only one example of the behavior that has driven this country into the ground. And this is just one little foot note of a completely colossal fuck up (9/11 into the Iraq War) that shows this man deserves the title of "WORST PRESIDENT EVER"

[WhoSaidThat?]

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j88/Rickzilla/images.jpg

[Machu505]

I love how they always put pretty names on fucked up bills.

The Defense of Marriage Act
The Patriot Act

[1Roth4]

1) The bill was endorsed by Bush. It's his pet project. He encouraged congress to come up with it, and he encouraged them to pass it again a few years ago.

2) Courts generally don't rule on issues that could be unconstitutional when the country is at "war" , they wait til it's over. That isn't exactly the best way of putting it, but what I'm trying to reference is Ex Parte Milligan. Even though the courts decided to strike down Lincoln's suspension of Habeous Corpous, they did so AFTER the war was over. They wouldn't have thought of hearing Milligan until after the war. They generally don't disagree with Presidents during a matter of national urgency (The Civil War, the Patriot Act,, etc..) the only time I can think of the supreme court ruling against the acting president during a war was during Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co vs Sawyer (under Truman). They agreed 6-3 that Truman couldn't seize the companies, but had he utilized the Taft-Hartley Act, they said they would have agreed with him seizing it.

Point of this post: The courts do rule against the president, just AFTER the fact. The last thing they want to do is get in the way. It's easier to go back and revise it after the fact (not saying I agree with it, just it's generally the position the courts take)

That makes sense. So we should see a reversal after Obama shuts down Gitmo, and some of these wrongful detentions are released.

Which I'm fine with. By no means am I condoning the Patriot Act as the sole right way to approach problems, but at the time when it was passed, it makes sense to me why it was.

[1Roth4]

It was 342 pages at is birth, and has over 40 addendums and additions to it. Furthermore, no one looked at because it was supposed to sunset in 2005, so everyone (purely speculation) thought 'what's the use, it's all gone in 4 years', until Bush signed it into law again in 2006. It's long, obscure, and full of grey area that people who are actually looking it over (ACLU) are having trouble grasping where the lines are drawn in the sand, because the lines and loopholes are so big, it's hard to differentiate what the hell the word of the law means.

Case in point, people who get sent to Guantanamo are people deemed "enemy combatants" by the President. There is no written statement as to what that actually means. So, think about that for a second - anyone the President deems an enemy, they can be shipped off to Gitmo without being charged or knowing what they are charged with, without a lawyer, and possibly tortured. Again, this isn't just something I speak of hypothetically, there are many documented reports of people who had NOTHING to do with ANYTHING CLOSE to terrorism being shipped of to Gitmo, and all of it is technically legal under the Patriot Act.

No one is looking at it because there are enough Bush cronies stashed in positions across the board to make sure stuff like the Patriot has basically a snowball's chance in hell of ever being brought before committees to go "wait, wtf, this says WHAT?"

Side semi-related note: There was a piece of pork attached to a part of the original law, the Homeland Security Act, that has a part called "General Vaccine Provisions." Basically it said you can't sue this pharmaceutical company who makes small pox Vaccines, Eli Lilly, if you have a problem with the Mercury component in them. Well, the law was so generic that it basically said you can't sue Eli Lilly for any vaccine problems.

Guess which company had a ton of lawsuits levied against it because it's high mercury levels were causing autism in kids? And guess which company dumped money into Bush's coffers in 2000? Guess which company had it's CEO's move from their jobs to spots in the Homeland Security Council?

It's since been changed, but it was the law at one point. Bush enacted it.

This is only one example of the behavior that has driven this country into the ground. And this is just one little foot note of a completely colossal fuck up (9/11 into the Iraq War) that shows this man deserves the title of "WORST PRESIDENT EVER"

You can tell you're a very smart guy, but after the 2nd paragraph, you got all "conspiracy theorist" on me.

Whether Bush endorsed it or not is really not the issue. It was passed by an overwhelming majority in the House. A House that was fairly split at the time. Passed again by the Senate, which was even more split than the house.

One of which is your Vice President-Elect. Mr. Joe Biden.

This as well as the any failing endured by this Presidency should not be a direct reflection of the President. That is not the way democracy works.

[GiggsOho]

You can tell you're a very smart guy, but after the 2nd paragraph, you got all "conspiracy theorist" on me.

Theory and fact are quite different. It was law for a year.

Google "Vaccine Provision Homeland Security Act" and read up.

Trust me, at face value it sounds like lunacy, but once you read up, it's absolutely shocking and disgraceful what this administration got away with.

[xshady121]

That makes sense. So we should see a reversal after Obama shuts down Gitmo, and some of these wrongful detentions are released.

Which I'm fine with. By no means am I condoning the Patriot Act as the sole right way to approach problems, but at the time when it was passed, it makes sense to me why it was.

The supreme courts generally take a "hands off" approach when the congress gives the president extra-constitutional powers, and fix things after the fact. Another example is the Overman Act and the Lever Act under Woodrow Wilson.


Although later presidents have utilized Overman (fdr, truman)

[GiggsOho]

The supreme courts generally take a "hands off" approach when the congress gives the president extra-constitutional powers, and fix things after the fact. Another example is the Overman Act and the Lever Act under Woodrow Wilson.


Although later presidents have utilized Overman (fdr, truman)


How did the Lever Act go beyond the reach of the Constitution?

[Matthew Tsai]

i agree w/ the OP.

unlike GiggsOho, who seems blinded beyond reason, George Bush had his good points, however few they were. you can't deny he did a decent job handling nine-eleven.

so the conclusion of the matter is this: i can't wait for Barack to take his seat

[xshady121]

How did the Lever Act go beyond the reach of the Constitution?

It allowed the president to set the price of agriculture and coal during WWI, this helped the US fund WWI.

[GiggsOho]

i agree w/ the OP.

unlike GiggsOho, who seems blinded beyond reason, George Bush had his good points, however few they were. you can't deny he did a decent job handling nine-eleven.

so the conclusion of the matter is this: i can't wait for Barack to take his seat

lol, blinded, yeah, that's it. My head is totally in the sand on this one. :rolleyes:

[GiggsOho]

It allowed the president to set the price of agriculture and coal during WWI, this helped the US fund WWI.

I know what it did, I just don't see how that gives the president extra-constitutional powers.

[xshady121]

I know what it did, I just don't see how that gives the president extra-constitutional powers.

The constitution doesn't give Wilson the right to regulate the marketplace. I'm not as up on my constitutional law as I should be, but I don't think that's Enumerated or Implied.

[GiggsOho]

The constitution doesn't give Wilson the right to regulate the marketplace. I'm not as up on my constitutional law as I should be, but I don't think that's Enumerated or Implied.

I'm not exactly an expert on it either, but I don't see how the regulating the marketplace goes against an Amendment. Not saying it does, I just don't know either way.

[IceTech]

Anyone who says that Bush is the "worst president ever" is just ignorant, I'm sorry. You need some perspective, and have to at least wait until a few months after he's gone to begin to even evaluate this question.

I can't believe I'm doing this... but our economy has actually grown under Bush (even though median wages have dropped). Bush inherited a recession that he turned around, and the administration actually sought to create an agency to oversee Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. This economic crisis has more to do with Alan Greenspan and the federal reserve than George W. Bush.

Also, the Iraq War is simply not the detestable travesty everyone makes it out to be (if you look at other wars we've fought). Like I stated earlier, Vietnam had 10X more casualties. Think for a second about Truman who single handedly authorized the only use of a nuclear weapon in history which killed 200,000 people instantly.

Think about Hoover who led us into a decade of depression that drove us to an unemployment rate of 25%! (right now it's about 6.5, and that's the highest it's been in 14 years).

Yes, the Patriot Act is a horrible violation of our constitutional rights, but these are things the government has been doing secretly for YEARS, it was just never codified until Bush. Attorney General Bobby Kennedy authorized the illegal wiretapping of Martin Luther King for example.

I don't like defending Bush, but for the sake of intellectual honesty, I have to plead with you to put it in some perspective. A low approval rating (even if it is the worst we've seen) does not automatically mean "worst president of all time". Wait at least a year until he's out of office. We're not going to see the full ramifications of his policies for probably another 5-10 years anyway.

[ActionActionFan]

I have a lot of respect for Bush and his effort. No matter how much you don't like him, you can't argue that he isn't motivated. I admire the fact that even though he is incredibly unpopular, he isn't giving up.

He is taking part in a very smooth transition of power to Obama.

There hasn't been an attack in the US since 9/11.

He got North Korea to end its nuclear program.

He cut taxes.

No Child Left Behind.

[Illuminate]

I wanna just have a beer with the dude, you see W yet.. seems like a cool guy to hang out with. And I agree with you- Bush wasn't terrible although he definitely messed up more than once (How he handled Katrina was just awful!)

[ActionActionFan]

I wanna just have a beer with the dude, you see W yet.. seems like a cool guy to hang out with. And I agree with you- Bush wasn't terrible although he definitely messed up more than once (How he handled Katrina was just awful!)

I think that FEMA is more to blame than Bush.

[Illuminate]

I think that FEMA is more to blame than Bush.

Ok, true. Although as the president of the United States he handled it poorly, there is no doubt about that.

[boykosaurus]

I believe Bush is a guy with a big heart and a willingness to do good. He was most likely tricked into thinking and acting a certain way because of those around him, and his legacy will pay for it unfortunately.

[GiggsOho]

I can't believe I'm doing this... but our economy has actually grown under Bush (even though median wages have dropped). Bush inherited a recession that he turned around, and the administration actually sought to create an agency to oversee Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. This economic crisis has more to do with Alan Greenspan and the federal reserve than George W. Bush.
Came into office with an extremely high surplus; leaving office with the National Debt clock broken, because the number wasn't large enough. 10B$ a month in Iraq at times....which leads to the next point...

Also, the Iraq War is simply not the detestable travesty everyone makes it out to be (if you look at other wars we've fought). Like I stated earlier, Vietnam had 10X more casualties. Think for a second about Truman who single handedly authorized the only use of a nuclear weapon in history which killed 200,000 people instantly.
IRAQ WAR WAS LED UNDER FALSE PRETENSE. At the outset the President didn't hoodwink the nation about what the hell was going on.

I don't like defending Bush, but for the sake of intellectual honesty, I have to plead with you to put it in some perspective. A low approval rating (even if it is the worst we've seen) does not automatically mean "worst president of all time". Wait at least a year until he's out of office. We're not going to see the full ramifications of his policies for probably another 5-10 years anyway.
I doubt we see alot of it with Obama taking over.





He is taking part in a very smooth transition of power to Obama.

REALLY?!?! THIS IS WHAT YOU ARE HANGING BUSH'S HAT ON?! HE GRACEFULLY LEFT?!? GTFO.

There hasn't been an attack in the US since 9/11.
This happened on his watch, with the intelligence to stop it. FAIL FAIL FAIL EPIC FAIL.

He got North Korea to end its nuclear program.
They are going a snails pace and refuse to cooperate with inspectors. This is far from a done program.

He cut taxes.
For the rich.

No Child Left Behind.
Another terrible policy with doesn't solve the actual problem, it puts the onus on teaching to tests instead of actually teaching stuff worth knowing. How anyone can say "NCLB is good" and then turn around and ask "why are kids so dumb?" makes my head bleed. Not saying that is what you are saying, but I've heard it said.


While the policies on face value have good intentions, their execution and final results have been pathetic. He shares a big part of the blame in all of it.

[TheComeBackKid]

Good post but I disagree about Bush being led astray. I think he wanted to go into Iraq since before he even "won" the election.

What makes you think this other than speculation?

[Matthew Tsai]

I believe Bush is a guy with a big heart and a willingness to do good. He was most likely tricked into thinking and acting a certain way because of those around him, and his legacy will pay for it unfortunately.

well said. he was just not meant to be a prez.

[IceTech]

Another terrible policy with doesn't solve the actual problem, it puts the onus on teaching to tests instead of actually teaching stuff worth knowing. How anyone can say "NCLB is good" and then turn around and ask "why are kids so dumb?" makes my head bleed. Not saying that is what you are saying, but I've heard it said.
.


Actually NCLB has been effective where it's been implemented. It had bi-partisan support from the likes of Ted Kennedy. The problem was, after 9/11, there was a change of priorities and it wasn't properly funded.


You know, I really hope Obama follows through with his campaign promise of governing as the United States of America and not the red states or the blue states. No offense, but it's people like you that worry me when you can't recognize one single policy that "the other side" has succeeded in. Just let go of your hate, it will feel better I promise.

[GiggsOho]

Actually NCLB has been effective where it's been implemented. It had bi-partisan support from the likes of Ted Kennedy. The problem was, after 9/11, there was a change of priorities and it wasn't properly funded.


You know, I really hope Obama follows through with his campaign promise of governing as the United States of America and not the red states or the blue states. No offense, but it's people like you that worry me when you can't recognize one single policy that "the other side" has succeeded in. Just let go of your hate, it will feel better I promise.


Looking back on the policies of the past 8 years is enough evidence enough that the other side consistently doesn't get it anymore. I'll be less for democrats when I see a good idea executed from the GOP.

And don't call me partisan, you have no idea where I stand on a number of issues. I actually think the best thing we could do in Iraq is actually stay there and do the job we promised to do, instead of leaving the place a fucking mess, which is what is exactly going to happen.

[ship of fools]

Bush had like a 86 approval rating after 9/11 and got us through the worst attack on American soil in history. If you don't give the man respect for that alone than I question your patriotism. People have such short term memories. I think history will be kind to Bush in the same respect as Truman during the start of the cold war. Bush's 'get though' foreign defense policy and his stubbornness to do what he thought was right no matter what the consequences reminds me a lot of Truman. Plus Truman didn't even go to college, was he not qualified?

People give Bush shit over the patriot act, and those people need to stop flattering themselves. The government could care less as to who you're calling. They also know nothing about history, like Wilson's Espionage and Sedition Acts, FDR's treatment of the Japanese after pearl harbor or his attempt to stack the Supreme Court, just to name a few modern examples that make the Patriot Act look mild.

Was Bush a good president? Absolutely not. His and his Congress' spending and some policies defy everything traditional Republicans stand for, and as the leader he deserves the blame he is getting for letting the financial realm get as bad as it has. But the extreme dissent, animosity, accusations, and outright hatred for the man are unwarranted and shows the ignorance of quite a few people.

[atticusfinch]

I have zero respect for Dubya. He ruined so many things in this country globally and domestically.

lol, Bush has absolutely nothing to do with 9/11, but that was definitely a product of the neo-cons which Bush is not.

Bush was always just a mere pawn in their game. He's just a silly Texas man who never had any business being President of this country.

Anyone in this thread see W. yet? It really creates a pathetic and sad image of Bush. He really was never meant to be a President, and it really was about looking for acceptance from his father.

Bush should've just stayed with Baseball.

[Jason Tate]

What's with people "questioning the patriotism" of those that don't respect Bush? :rolleyes:

Can someone tell me what he did after 9/11 deserving of respect? He sat on his ass, stood around, and then used the attacks to fuck over this country.

[Tony Pascarella]

I'm not saying this as just a right-leaning moderate, because I hardly think the Administration has done the best job in several areas. But anyone who thinks that Bush is some heartless tyrant, I'm sorry that is just incorrect. It's like the old saying, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" and I believe that appropriatley sums up his areas of flaw. For him to also be the sole blame of all our countries problems is absolutley ridiculous, thats a trend that should have died with the Hoover years, everyone ought to know that a president's power is far more limited than of someone you can point fingers at. All in all I think Bush has done good in many ways, that unfortunatly gets over-shadowed by the mistakes of more than one individual, which I think he's a victim of circumstances. Do I think he's one of the worst presidents ever? No, do I think he's the worst in the last 50 years? No, I mean he's certainly not gonna rank up there with Reagan or JFK, but I dont think he's as bad as someone like Carter, who is a great person and humanitarian, but a pathetic excuse for a leader.He's not a heartless tyrant. He's (seemingly) an idiot who has built an extremely negative legacy of his presidency by continually being wrong and refusing to admit or fix it.

Bush had like a 86 approval rating after 9/11 and got us through the worst attack on American soil in history. If you don't give the man respect for that alone than I question your patriotism. People have such short term memories. I think history will be kind to Bush in the same respect as Truman during the start of the cold war. Bush's 'get though' foreign defense policy and his stubbornness to do what he thought was right no matter what the consequences reminds me a lot of Truman. Plus Truman didn't even go to college, was he not qualified?

People give Bush shit over the patriot act, and those people need to stop flattering themselves. The government could care less as to who you're calling. They also know nothing about history, like Wilson's Espionage and Sedition Acts, FDR's treatment of the Japanese after pearl harbor or his attempt to stack the Supreme Court, just to name a few modern examples that make the Patriot Act look mild.

Was Bush a good president? Absolutely not. His and his Congress' spending and some policies defy everything traditional Republicans stand for, and as the leader he deserves the blame he is getting for letting the financial realm get as bad as it has. But the extreme dissent, animosity, accusations, and outright hatred for the man are unwarranted and shows the ignorance of quite a few people.He is the leader of the country, and ultimately its success or failure rests on his shoulders as the commander in chief, head of state, leader of his party, and for lack of a better phrase, the face of this country. It's exactly the same way our presidents have been judged for 230 years. It is extremely difficult to try to separate a president from his administration for posterity's sake. Think about it.

As for the people defending Bush's leadership of this country post-9/11, let me ask this. Tell me definitively that he was "the man" for the job. Based on his leadership through this country in times of crisis (particularly domestic crisis...Hurricane Katrina, anyone?) who's to say someone else couldn't have done just as "good" of a job without all of the other things that will mar his presidency? I just don't see anything in the past 8 years that stands out so far as to say, "Wow, he was so much of a better president in than anyone with similar credentials could have been." To tie it to sports, in Sabermetrics, they call it VORP...Value over replacement player. Same idea applies to my point here.

I have a lot of respect for Bush and his effort. No matter how much you don't like him, you can't argue that he isn't motivated. I admire the fact that even though he is incredibly unpopular, he isn't giving up.

He is taking part in a very smooth transition of power to Obama.

There hasn't been an attack in the US since 9/11.

He got North Korea to end its nuclear program.

He cut taxes.

No Child Left Behind.If he sat there refusing to let go of his grip on the big red button, he'd be crucified by both parties at this point, I think. The best thing he can do is leave quietly and stay the hell away from Major League Baseball (it still makes me cringe that he had a shot at being Bud Selig at one point).

There hasn't been an attack, but does that mean his efforts are working (maybe) or those fighting against America are unorganized (possibly) or they're working on something currently (also possible)? I mean, you can reach into a bag and pull out speculation on that one, and you may [I]never get an answer.

As for North Korea--they began disabling their nuclear program, but have since slowed down because they're not getting the aid/compensation they were promised. We'll see how that plays out.

As for taxes and No Child Left Behind, I agree with Giggs above.

You can't sit here and pick and choose what to attribute to the president. If he fails to get things accomplished due to his own incompetence, his advisors, Congress, etc., the blame still ultimately comes back to the guy sitting in the Oval Office.

[IceTech]

What's interesting about this discussion is that most reasonable people agree that Bush was a "bad" president. The division seems to be of those that view Bush as some sort of pseudo-Hitler bent on a neo-conservative fascist conspiracy and those that view him as a flawed human and a sub-par president.

I will reiterate my point that it is troublesome to see so many people (practically an entire generation) have such a irrational hatred for the leader of our country. I think we have to realize what went wrong, what good that did happen, what we can take from it, and how we can bring both the right and left together to solve our problems.

I really believe this is why Obama was so convincingly elected last Tuesday. I do not think it was a repudiation of Bush. I think it is a culmination of events leading back to his 2004 DNC speech about unity and rising above the politics of the past. I think one of the most profound statements he has made on this subject comes from a excerpt from his book, The Audacity of Hope:

"When Democrats rush up to me at events and insist that we live in the worst of political times, that a creeping fascism is closing its grip around our throats, I may mention the internment of Japanese Americans under FDR, the Alien and Sedition Acts under John Adams, or a hundred years of lynching under several dozen administrations as having been possibly worse, and suggest we all take a deep breath".

[1Roth4]

Came into office with an extremely high surplus; leaving office with the National Debt clock broken, because the number wasn't large enough. 10B$ a month in Iraq at times....which leads to the next point...


IRAQ WAR WAS LED UNDER FALSE PRETENSE. At the outset the President didn't hoodwink the nation about what the hell was going on.


I doubt we see alot of it with Obama taking over.







REALLY?!?! THIS IS WHAT YOU ARE HANGING BUSH'S HAT ON?! HE GRACEFULLY LEFT?!? GTFO.


This happened on his watch, with the intelligence to stop it. FAIL FAIL FAIL EPIC FAIL.


They are going a snails pace and refuse to cooperate with inspectors. This is far from a done program.


For the rich.


Another terrible policy with doesn't solve the actual problem, it puts the onus on teaching to tests instead of actually teaching stuff worth knowing. How anyone can say "NCLB is good" and then turn around and ask "why are kids so dumb?" makes my head bleed. Not saying that is what you are saying, but I've heard it said.





While the policies on face value have good intentions, their execution and final results have been pathetic. He shares a big part of the blame in all of it.



Well then, I think you should have testified at the 9/11 commission, because apparently you know things no one else does.

The Iraq discussion makes my head hurt. I've had it a million times. The fact that Iraq is better off without a repressive dictator, not to mention the world is better off without, is really all you need to know. The Pre-text of going in to me was irrelevant. He could have said he was going into Iraq because fucking hated Saddam's guts and wanted to kill the cocksucker, and I would have given him my blessing. The world and the media has you brainwashed. They've ignored the millions of Kurdish people in northern Iraq that praise the United States for what they did.

But to be honest with you, if George Bush did anything, you would find some way to complain about it.

[Burn That Shit]

The arguement that he deserves some sort of credit for his post 9/11 efforts is so disgusting considering these attacks could have been prevented if he wasn't such a terrible president in the first place.

Say you're given information before hand that one of your friends is going to get stabbed tommorow. You don't mention it to your friend, and he indeed gets stabbed. Do you deserve some sort of respect or credit for taking him to the hospital after he gets stabbed even though you knew about it beforehand and decided to not do anything about it? Fuck no, you're a terrible friend and you should get impeached from that friendship, owe dues to those who were injured, and get tried for war crimes.

Sorry for the terrible analogy.

[1Roth4]

What's with people "questioning the patriotism" of those that don't respect Bush? :rolleyes:

Can someone tell me what he did after 9/11 deserving of respect? He sat on his ass, stood around, and then used the attacks to fuck over this country.

I respect what you say 9 times out of 10. This is one topic we don't see eye to eye on.

I think you need to pop in another conspiracy theory film about 9/11

[1Roth4]

I have zero respect for Dubya. He ruined so many things in this country globally and domestically.

lol, Bush has absolutely nothing to do with 9/11, but that was definitely a product of the neo-cons which Bush is not.

Bush was always just a mere pawn in their game. He's just a silly Texas man who never had any business being President of this country.

Anyone in this thread see W. yet? It really creates a pathetic and sad image of Bush. He really was never meant to be a President, and it really was about looking for acceptance from his father.

Bush should've just stayed with Baseball.

:-|

[wrppdarndyrfngr]

I respect what you say 9 times out of 10. This is one topic we don't see eye to eye on.

I think you need to pop in another conspiracy theory film about 9/11

Where did Tate say anything about the "Bush orchestrated 9/11" Conspiracy?

[boykosaurus]

Oh yessss...this is going to get good.

:popc:

[Mercy Medical]

I'm pretty sure that any President that would have declared war on Afghanistan or whomever right after 9/11 would have had a high approval rating...that's not like it was a monumental and difficult decision.

"Oh hey, you attacked us. We'll attack you back!"

That shit has been going on for quite some time now...

[1Roth4]

Where did Tate say anything about the "Bush orchestrated 9/11" Conspiracy?

"and then used the attacks to fuck over this country."

[Mercy Medical]

"and then used the attacks to fuck over this country."
That doesn't necessarily mean it's a 9/11 conspiracy...

[alice+interiors]

If it stops another attack on American soil, is it worth it? If 9/11 could have been stopped, would it make the surrender of those civil liberties justified?
9/11 could have been stopped. There is some pretty conclusive evidence that says NORAD knew the planes were off course and had the chance and experience to bring the planes down in somewhere safe, merely chose not to.
Give a stronger argument.

George Bush deserves to be remembered for nothing but his failed policies and endless lies.

[1Roth4]

That doesn't necessarily mean it's a 9/11 conspiracy...

true. but its an aspect of the conspiracy.

[alice+interiors]

That doesn't necessarily mean it's a 9/11 conspiracy...
While I don't think that George Bush's government, or even America was the cause of 9/11, I think he took the opportunity and played some role in allowing in to happen. Or at least, his puppeteers did.

[1Roth4]

9/11 could have been stopped. There is some pretty conclusive evidence that says NORAD knew the planes were off course and had the chance and experience to bring the planes down in somewhere safe, merely chose not to.
Give a stronger argument.

George Bush deserves to be remembered for nothing but his failed policies and endless lies.

How many times in history have we seen planes used as weapons? Most hijackings have been done so to gain something. They could not have known who it was that hijacked the planes until after the fact. Flying them into the Pentagon, and the Trade Towers were probably not the first scenario they came across.

Shooting down 4 planes filled with American civilians would be a little harder to do at that point than in retrospect.

[wrppdarndyrfngr]

"and then used the attacks to fuck over this country."

pretty sure he meant used the enviroment after the attacks to inact his polices that have messed up the country.

not bush caused the attack SO he could inact his polices

[Mercy Medical]

true. but its an aspect of the conspiracy.
How is it an aspect of the conspiracy at all?

[1Roth4]

While I don't think that George Bush's government, or even America was the cause of 9/11, I think he took the opportunity and played some role in allowing in to happen. Or at least, his puppeteers did.

Its comments like that, that make no sense to me.

So you beleive that Americans knew that their decisions would cause 3000 people to die. 3000 innocent American lives. Not to mention the destruction of 2 of their most impressive buildings. All for the gain of what?

Thats fucking ridiculous. Think about your comments before you type them.

[1Roth4]

pretty sure he meant used the enviroment after the attacks to inact his polices that have messed up the country.

not bush caused the attack SO he could inact his polices

ok. i was mistaken.

[Mercy Medical]

Its comments like that, that make no sense to me.

So you beleive that Americans knew that their decisions would cause 3000 people to die. 3000 innocent American lives. Not to mention the destruction of 2 of their most impressive buildings. All for the gain of what?

Thats fucking ridiculous. Think about your comments before you type them.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Apparently you have no idea of the controlling nature of fear.

[1Roth4]

How is it an aspect of the conspiracy at all?

ok. my comment was out of line. I've re-read his comment, and I do have no reason to make that comment.

Although I do not agree that he used those attacks as a means of pursuing his own agenda.

[1Roth4]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Apparently you have no idea of the controlling nature of fear.

So you think the Bush administration knew this was going to happen to strike fear in its citizens.

[Mercy Medical]

ok. my comment was out of line. I've re-read his comment, and I do have no reason to make that comment.

Although I do not agree that he used those attacks as a means of pursuing his own agenda.
The whole country was in a state of panic post 9/11 which makes it very, very easy for him to pass laws and legislation that would not have passed without that. The Patriot Act? Come the fuck on, do you think that shit would have flown pre-9/11? The war in Iraq? They used 9/11 as a pretense for that. They used it as a spring board...

Apparently you are relatively blind to the evil and cruel nature of politicians...

[Mercy Medical]

So you think the Bush administration knew this was going to happen to strike fear in its citizens.
Whether they knew it was going to happen or whether they caused it to happen, I do not know. I do not believe they were blind to these facts, however.

Fear has an amazing way of getting people to do what you want them to do. It's probably the best way to control people.

[1Roth4]

The whole country was in a state of panic post 9/11 which makes it very, very easy for him to pass laws and legislation that would not have passed without that. The Patriot Act? Come the fuck on, do you think that shit would have flown pre-9/11? The war in Iraq? They used 9/11 as a pretense for that. They used it as a spring board...

Apparently you are relatively blind to the evil and cruel nature of politicians...

I know quite a few politicians quite well. None of which are evil, or cruel.

I realize that these legislative actions were taken at a time where the country was vulnerable. Im not denying that.

But I'm also not conceding that in that circumstance in American History desperate measures needed to be taken in order to protect its citizens.

[1Roth4]

Whether they knew it was going to happen or whether they caused it to happen, I do not know. I do not believe they were blind to these facts, however.

Fear has an amazing way of getting people to do what you want them to do. It's probably the best way to control people.

I agree. But I thinking saying that the Bush Administration had known about this is a really cynical way to look at humanity. Politicians are no different than you and I.

Knowing that an attack was imminent and knowing that planes were going to be flown into buildings are different things.

[Mercy Medical]

I know quite a few politicians quite well. None of which are evil, or cruel.

I realize that these legislative actions were taken at a time where the country was vulnerable. Im not denying that.

But I'm also not conceding that in that circumstance in American History desperate measures needed to be taken in order to protect its citizens.
Like going to war with a country that had nothing to do with the war we were currently fighting?

Ooookay.

How do you even know that this threat was even that high? It's so easy for the government to sit and tell us that it is and people will believe it because it's the government speaking and we're supposed to sit here and believe that everything they do is for the good of the people.

[Mercy Medical]

I agree. But I thinking saying that the Bush Administration had known about this is a really cynical way to look at humanity. Politicians are no different than you and I.

Knowing that an attack was imminent and knowing that planes were going to be flown into buildings are different things.
You sitting there and thinking that the government wouldn't kill thousands of people in order to instill a state of fear in this country that would allow them to pass legislation and go to wars that this country wouldn't be okay with before hand is a really fairy tale way to look at humanity.

I'm not saying that all politicians are bad people. I'm not saying that all people are bad people. There are great human beings out there in this world. But for every great human being there is also an evil one that will stop at nothing to get what they want.

I would not put it past the US Government to allow the attacks to happen or even orchestrate the attacks in order to instill a state of fear in the American people.

Hell, look at the Republican party. That's all they ever do is scare the shit out of everyone so they vote the way they want. The bullshit lies that Mormon church preached about gay marriage to get Prop 8 to pass. It was just to get people scared.

[alice+interiors]

Its comments like that, that make no sense to me.

So you beleive that Americans knew that their decisions would cause 3000 people to die. 3000 innocent American lives. Not to mention the destruction of 2 of their most impressive buildings. All for the gain of what?

Thats fucking ridiculous. Think about your comments before you type them.
Wow, you are fucking incredibly naive, it's almost ridiculous. You don't believe that Bush/other politicians would exploit the nature of fear to gain billions of dollars in privatized greed? Do you know who a large proportion of the weaponry and armour packages are contracted to? A weapons company with George Bush Snr. at the top of the list of shareholders. And who would stand to gain when he eventually passes away? George Bush Jnr. Thus, your cycle of exploitation and greed.
George Bush is not around to make sure that the country prospers - he is there to front the Republican Party and take what he earns in the end. That is why he hid behind supposedly Christian Methodist ideals when he ran for the presidency, when he in fact had no true alliance with Christianity.
The man deserves to be punished for all of his despicable war crimes, and you need to open your eyes to the real, totalitarian state America has been suffering under for the past eight years.

[Mercy Medical]

Whose to say that we as Americans aren't the real terrorist here considering we went into Iraq and started a war with them with no real reason. I mean, it's not like they attacked us...

I find it funny that when other countries fight for what they believe to be right and true and attack us it's instantly "terrorism", but when we do it to other countries we're just trying to protect ourselves...

:rolleyes:

[1Roth4]

You sitting there and thinking that the government wouldn't kill thousands of people in order to instill a state of fear in this country that would allow them to pass legislation and go to wars that this country wouldn't be okay with before hand is a really fairy tale way to look at humanity.

I'm not saying that all politicians are bad people. I'm not saying that all people are bad people. There are great human beings out there in this world. But for every great human being there is also an evil one that will stop at nothing to get what they want.

I would not put it past the US Government to allow the attacks to happen or even orchestrate the attacks in order to instill a state of fear in the American people.

Hell, look at the Republican party. That's all they ever do is scare the shit out of everyone so they vote the way they want. The bullshit lies that Mormon church preached about gay marriage to get Prop 8 to pass. It was just to get people scared.

Ok.

[alice+interiors]

How many times in history have we seen planes used as weapons? Most hijackings have been done so to gain something. They could not have known who it was that hijacked the planes until after the fact. Flying them into the Pentagon, and the Trade Towers were probably not the first scenario they came across.

Shooting down 4 planes filled with American civilians would be a little harder to do at that point than in retrospect.
They could easily had known, American intelligence operatives are literally (illegally) operating in senior positions across the world, in order to gain and report back top secret information to the Republican White House. Fact - it's not hard to search across the internet and find the hushed up tales of those who were discovered.
The Pentagon and the Twin Towers were the epitomy of American politics and industry, and therefore they were obvious targets. Therefore anything that got even close to them should've been taken down, at whatever cost. A lot more people lost their lives in the crash and the resulting wars than would have had the planes been destroyed.
As for your last point - military air force operatives are trained to be hardened to the emotional aspect of hurting and attacking civilians. It was 100% in their power to perform that act, and they chose not to.
Lastly - if the American intelligence services didn't know where the planes were heading, despite having their tentacles in every political pie across the world, why wasn't George Bush and the class of students he was in evacuated immediately? The President's timetable is published daily and is accessible to anyone in the world, making him and those children an obvious target. Yet nothing was done.

You sitting there and thinking that the government wouldn't kill thousands of people in order to instill a state of fear in this country that would allow them to pass legislation and go to wars that this country wouldn't be okay with before hand is a really fairy tale way to look at humanity.

I'm not saying that all politicians are bad people. I'm not saying that all people are bad people. There are great human beings out there in this world. But for every great human being there is also an evil one that will stop at nothing to get what they want.

I would not put it past the US Government to allow the attacks to happen or even orchestrate the attacks in order to instill a state of fear in the American people.

Hell, look at the Republican party. That's all they ever do is scare the shit out of everyone so they vote the way they want. The bullshit lies that Mormon church preached about gay marriage to get Prop 8 to pass. It was just to get people scared.
Nevertheless, a high percentage. It's the way they're built.

[alice+interiors]

Whose to say that we as Americans aren't the real terrorist here considering we went into Iraq and started a war with them with no real reason. I mean, it's not like they attacked us...

I find it funny that when other countries fight for what they believe to be right and true and attack us it's instantly "terrorism", but when we do it to other countries we're just trying to protect ourselves...

:rolleyes:
It is terrorism, plain and simple, and in that respect my country is every bit at fault for the hand it has played in this business.
A Supreme Court and prosecutors would have no qualms in punishing the average Muslim for these crimes, yet a white "Christian" back by billions of dollars will not be touched. The United Nations is equally as bad for not publicly denouncing it.

[1Roth4]

Wow, you are fucking incredibly naive, it's almost ridiculous. You don't believe that Bush/other politicians would exploit the nature of fear to gain billions of dollars in privatized greed? Do you know who a large proportion of the weaponry and armour packages are contracted to? A weapons company with George Bush Snr. at the top of the list of shareholders. And who would stand to gain when he eventually passes away? George Bush Jnr. Thus, your cycle of exploitation and greed.
George Bush is not around to make sure that the country prospers - he is there to front the Republican Party and take what he earns in the end. That is why he hid behind supposedly Christian Methodist ideals when he ran for the presidency, when he in fact had no true alliance with Christianity.
The man deserves to be punished for all of his despicable war crimes, and you need to open your eyes to the real, totalitarian state America has been suffering under for the past eight years.

You sound crazy. Maybe this "fear" thing you talk about, is something you've created. Maybe its schizophrenia. I'm not sure. I'm not a doctor.

Believe what you want, and I'll believe what I do. You can continue to live in a constant state of fear of your government, and I'll continue to observe and question it where I see fit.

[GiggsOho]

Bush had like a 86 approval rating after 9/11 and got us through the worst attack on American soil in history. If you don't give the man respect for that alone than I question your patriotism.

lolol Are you serious? Do you have any independent thought or do you just spit out GOP talking points? GET FUCKED.

Well then, I think you should have testified at the 9/11 commission, because apparently you know things no one else does.

The Iraq discussion makes my head hurt. I've had it a million times. The fact that Iraq is better off without a repressive dictator, not to mention the world is better off without, is really all you need to know. The Pre-text of going in to me was irrelevant. He could have said he was going into Iraq because fucking hated Saddam's guts and wanted to kill the cocksucker, and I would have given him my blessing. The world and the media has you brainwashed. They've ignored the millions of Kurdish people in northern Iraq that praise the United States for what they did.

But to be honest with you, if George Bush did anything, you would find some way to complain about it.

Uh, actually a lot of people knew in the intelligence community beforehand: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/16/attack/main509294.shtml

If the man is a complete failure (and he is), it deserves to be noted. Harshly.


And everyone out there, stop with the conspiracy shit. Maddox, (yeah, that guy), said it best: http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons

[alice+interiors]

You sound crazy. Maybe this "fear" thing you talk about, is something you've created. Maybe its schizophrenia. I'm not sure. I'm not a doctor.

Believe what you want, and I'll believe what I do. You can continue to live in a constant state of fear of your government, and I'll continue to observe and question it where I see fit.
And that is exactly what you are failing to do - question it. Instead, you prefer to sit back and allow this dictator state to sweep over you and you remain in your blissful naivety. Keep putting your faith in governments like this and you will follow it into it's circle of corporate greed and homicidal exploitation.

edit: Also, if my statements were so ridiculous, it'd be nice to hear your reasoning behind that. It's odd how you didn't use that chance to dissect and disprove my comments. Oh well, I'm not surprised.

[Mercy Medical]

It is terrorism, plain and simple, and in that respect my country is every bit at fault for the hand it has played in this business.
A Supreme Court and prosecutors would have no qualms in punishing the average Muslim for these crimes, yet a white "Christian" back by billions of dollars will not be touched. The United Nations is equally as bad for not publicly denouncing it.I just find the US to be a bit ridiculous in a lot of regards. We feel as though because we are the world power that we can push people around as we see fit and do what we want and because we are so powerful people will get behind us.

You sound crazy. Maybe this "fear" thing you talk about, is something you've created. Maybe its schizophrenia. I'm not sure. I'm not a doctor.

Believe what you want, and I'll believe what I do. You can continue to live in a constant state of fear of your government, and I'll continue to observe and question it where I see fit.Hahahaha, wow...you really are naive.

How does any of that sound crazy? It's fucking logical.

And the people that question this sort of thing are not living in fear. They are observing and questioning where they see fit.

There's no reason to be a condescending asshole...

[alice+interiors]

I just find the US to be a bit ridiculous in a lot of regards. We feel as though because we are the world power that we can push people around as we see fit and do what we want and because we are so powerful people will get behind us.

Hahahaha, wow...you really are naive.

How does any of that sound crazy? It's fucking logical.

And the people that question this sort of thing are not living in fear. They are observing and questioning where they see fit.

There's no reason to be a condescending asshole...
Soon, the banks will run out of paper to print money on and the entire country will collapse into China's arms. The amounts of debt generated by the two current wars, that has been provided by China, is staggering. It is not long before a truly serious stock market crash, I am sure of it.

[1Roth4]

I just find the US to be a bit ridiculous in a lot of regards. We feel as though because we are the world power that we can push people around as we see fit and do what we want and because we are so powerful people will get behind us.

Hahahaha, wow...you really are naive.

How does any of that sound crazy? It's fucking logical.

And the people that question this sort of thing are not living in fear. They are observing and questioning where they see fit.

There's no reason to be a condescending asshole...

I'm not trying to be a condescending asshole, but lets be serious. You're trying me to convince me that the Bush Administration (and any politician) would be ok with killing 3000 people in order to achieve greater financial status? To start war? I just do not see how this is plausable. But hey, if you believe this to be true, go for it.

Start a revolution to impeach the President. Start a movement to have him arrested and tried for all of the heinous things he's done. If you can do so. I will be the first one to admit I was wrong.

[boykosaurus]

Soon, the banks will run out of paper to print money on and the entire country will collapse into China's arms. The amounts of debt generated by the two current wars, that has been provided by China, is staggering. It is not long before a truly serious stock market crash, I am sure of it.

aaaand that is why I'm going to grad school.

[Mercy Medical]

I'm not trying to be a condescending asshole, but lets be serious. You're trying me to convince me that the Bush Administration (and any politician) would be ok with killing 3000 people in order to achieve greater financial status? To start war? I just do not see how this is plausable. But hey, if you believe this to be true, go for it.

Start a revolution to impeach the President. Start a movement to have him arrested and tried for all of the heinous things he's done. If you can do so. I will be the first one to admit I was wrong.
You sat and asked if he had schizophrenia and said he needed to go see a doctor. Come the fuck on, that is condescending and has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

And yes, we are. If you do not believe that people are capable of such a thing then you are truly naive...

Why should anyone start a Revolution at this point? He's done with his reign at President. And how does it even make sense to go through the GOVERNMENT process to impeach the President? Do you honestly think that's going to go anywhere when the government is in control?

And they are going to investigate his Presidency, but he's trying to put a stop to that right now before he leaves the office.

[Mercy Medical]

Soon, the banks will run out of paper to print money on and the entire country will collapse into China's arms. The amounts of debt generated by the two current wars, that has been provided by China, is staggering. It is not long before a truly serious stock market crash, I am sure of it.
And that is the reason we need to get out of Iraq and shouldn't have been there in the first place. We just can't fucking afford it as a country. Our government functions financially much like our citizens, in a constant state of debt. Being naive to their true financial situation and spending outside of their means...

[1Roth4]

You sat and asked if he had schizophrenia and said he needed to go see a doctor. Come the fuck on, that is condescending and has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

And yes, we are. If you do not believe that people are capable of such a thing then you are truly naive...

Why should anyone start a Revolution at this point? He's done with his reign at President. And how does it even make sense to go through the GOVERNMENT process to impeach the President? Do you honestly think that's going to go anywhere when the government is in control?

And they are going to investigate his Presidency, but he's trying to put a stop to that right now before he leaves the office.

I'm just giving you ideas to entertain.

And I entertained the idea of schizophrenia. But I didn't say he needed to see a doctor. Read my comment again. Agree, irrelevant to the conversation. My apologies.

We will see what happens after Obama takes office. I doubt he'll linger in the past though, seems to impede progress.

[sjb2k1]

bush attempted to pass a federal marriage amendment. he is responsible for the patriot act and the war in iraq. he can eat shit.

[ship of fools]

If you really think Bush had malicious intent to destroy and fuck over this country, it just shows how far you got your own head up your ass. After the initial attack, he did everything right. He stood firm against discriminating against middle easterners, something the "great" FDR even failed at noticing. He brought this country together and kept us on our feet. Saddam Hussein was a tyrant. Bush saw the oppression in the country and he ousted the regime. Was there US interest in invading Iraq? Of course. He's not stupid. It's not right, but every president in history primary goal for any of their doctrines had American interest as their primary intent. But the reason he invaded was because of faulty intelligence and the outright tyranny. If it was based on American interest alone, he would have no problem invading almost every other country in the region.

[xshady121]

bush attempted to pass a federal marriage amendment. he is responsible for the patriot act and the war in iraq. he can eat shit.

Clinton passed Defense of Marriage.

[Mercy Medical]

Clinton passed Defense of Marriage.
Clinton was an asshole because he supporters the LGBT community and essentially turned his back on them when it came down to it.

Setting that aside, what does your post have to do with anything...?

[Adeniz19]

If you really think Bush had malicious intent to destroy and fuck over this country, it just shows how far you got your own head up your ass. After the initial attack, he did everything right. He stood firm against discriminating against middle easterners, something the "great" FDR even failed at noticing. He brought this country together and kept us on our feet. Saddam Hussein was a tyrant. Bush saw the oppression in the country and he ousted the regime. Was there US interest in invading Iraq? Of course. He's not stupid. It's not right, but every president in history primary goal for any of their doctrines had American interest as their primary intent. But the reason he invaded was because of faulty intelligence and the outright tyranny. If it was based on American interest alone, he would have no problem invading almost every other country in the region.the patriot act?

[xshady121]

Clinton was an asshole because he supporters the LGBT community and essentially turned his back on them when it came down to it.

Setting that aside, what does your post have to do with anything...?

In response to what SJB posted, that bush should "eat shit" for trying to get an amendment passed, I think that's a bad attitude to take. He failed, where as Clinton succeeded in defining marriage at a federal level.

I feel like her wrath should be focused at the Democrats who supported it back then and the ones that are ACTUALLY oppressing the gays, then the ones that tried (and failed) in 2004ish.

[sjb2k1]

Clinton passed Defense of Marriage.we're not talking about clinton here in this thread, but i have my own issues with that. he also passed don't ask, don't tell, which has its own problems.

back to my original point. bush came out guns blazing for an amendment that would write discrimination into our constitution. he made the 2004 election about the scary gays and how we wanted to get married. classy guy.

[Mercy Medical]

In response to what SJB posted, that bush should "eat shit" for trying to get an amendment passed, I think that's a bad attitude to take. He failed, where as Clinton succeeded in defining marriage at a federal level.

I feel like her wrath should be focused at the Democrats who supported it back then and the ones that are ACTUALLY oppressing the gays, then the ones that tried (and failed) in 2004ish.
Yea, but we aren't talking about Clinton here whatsoever. You're bringing up something completely pointless and stupid with the sole intention of saying "oh hey! The democrats are bad too!" We're not discussing dems vs. reps here. It's about Bush.

[sjb2k1]

oh so because he failed at his discrimination attempt (but succeeded with all the other stuff i mentioned) i should give him a pass?

oh okay.

edit: allow me to modify my first post: he is responsible for the patriot act and the war in iraq. HE CAN EAT SHIT.

[ship of fools]

The Patriot Act says absolutely nothing about discriminating against middle easterners. What it does say is that we can use any means necessary to find potential terrorist to stop another 9/11 from occurring. Who attacked our country? Middle Easterners. It's not intended to target those people, but that is where the biggest threat lies, therefor they receive the most scrutiny. For example, it would be a waste of time to scrutinize Canadaian Americans to the same extent as middle easterners. Common sense.

No, what Bush did was tell our people that American Muslims and middle easterners were just as American as we were, and deserve none of the discrimination that was looming. History told us that it was coming, but the government for the first time that America was attacked stood for Americans of the same ethnicity of the attackers. That is to be commended.

[ship of fools]

oh so because he failed at his discrimination attempt (but succeeded with all the other stuff i mentioned) i should give him a pass?

oh okay.

edit: allow me to modify my first post: he is responsible for the patriot act and the war in iraq. HE CAN EAT SHIT.


Since you have taken such a strong personal stance against the Patriot Act, how exactly has the Patriot Act harmed you personally?

By the way, Congress decides when we go to war. He did not use the War Act of 1973, why do you put 100% of the blame on Bush?

[xshady121]

oh so because he failed at his discrimination attempt (but succeeded with all the other stuff i mentioned) i should give him a pass?

oh okay.

edit: allow me to modify my first post: he is responsible for the patriot act and the war in iraq. HE CAN EAT SHIT.

You're not going to get me to bite on that one. I am against the patriot act as well. However, I don't feel that alone is enough to tarnish his reputation as a overwhelmingly average president. Many presidents have in the past done a lot worse.

[xshady121]

Since you have taken such a strong personal stance against the Patriot Act, how exactly has the Patriot Act harmed you personally?

By the way, Congress decides when we go to war. He did not use the War Act of 1973, why do you put 100% of the blame on Bush?

Congress can "declare war" without officially declaring it. By funding it, they "declared" war.

[Mercy Medical]

Since you have taken such a strong personal stance against the Patriot Act, how exactly has the Patriot Act harmed you personally?

By the way, Congress decides when we go to war. He did not use the War Act of 1973, why do you put 100% of the blame on Bush?
No one is going to know how they've been affected by the Patriot Act unless they get arrested, but that still doesn't make the government snooping my shit right.

[ship of fools]

Still doesn't answer my question

[Adeniz19]

The Patriot Act says absolutely nothing about discriminating against middle easterners. What it does say is that we can use any means necessary to find potential terrorist to stop another 9/11 from occurring. Who attacked our country? Middle Easterners. It's not intended to target those people, but that is where the biggest threat lies, therefor they receive the most scrutiny. For example, it would be a waste of time to scrutinize Canadaian Americans to the same extent as middle easterners. Common sense.

No, what Bush did was tell our people that American Muslims and middle easterners were just as American as we were, and deserve none of the discrimination that was looming. History told us that it was coming, but the government for the first time that America was attacked stood for Americans of the same ethnicity of the attackers. That is to be commended.racial profiling is racial profiling. you can spin it any way you want. what FDR did to asian-americans was despicable, and while muslim americans might not be locked up in camps, you even admit yourself they are being far more scrutinized because of their background.

[ship of fools]

No one is going to know how they've been affected by the Patriot Act unless they get arrested, but that still doesn't make the government snooping my shit right.


Quit flattering yourself. The government could give two shits as to what you're doing. You might think you're that important, but trust me, they're not going to waste their resources on a 24 year old pure-blooded American girl who has no history of disloyalty to her country. The government is not "snooping your shit".

[xshady121]

Still doesn't answer my question

The patriot act is just a blanket for the government to circumvent the necessary channels of getting shit done. They rarely use it for "terrorism" as "terrorism" has evolved into such a loose fitting term that can be applied to anything that goes against the greater good. Dvd Piracy? Terrorism. Bootleg Designer Bags? Terrorism. Our civil liberties are being trampled by the government and our congress has signed away our rights.

[Mercy Medical]

Quit flattering yourself. The government could give two shits as to what you're doing. You might think you're that important, but trust me, they're not going to waste their resources on a 24 year old pure-blooded American girl who has no history of disloyalty to her country. The government is not "snooping your shit".
But it's the premise of the act itself and while they may not be currently, it allows them to have every right to do so without saying why.

It's the principle of the concept that makes it flawed.

[ship of fools]

racial profiling is racial profiling. you can spin it any way you want. what FDR did to asian-americans was despicable, and while muslim americans might not be locked up in camps, you even admit yourself they are being far more scrutinized because of their background.


They would be stupid not to. Really? This is not a matter of being politically correct. This is a matter of American safety, and the biggest threat is undeniably those radicals in the middle east. It's educated guesses, not random sampling to try and be fair to everyone. If you're making daily calls to middle eastern areas that are known to hold radicals, that is what the government is interested in. Who is going to have ties there? Immigrants who came from there.

[sjb2k1]

Since you have taken such a strong personal stance against the Patriot Act, how exactly has the Patriot Act harmed you personally?

By the way, Congress decides when we go to war. He did not use the War Act of 1973, why do you put 100% of the blame on Bush?can't be sure if i'm being spied on right now, but hey you never know.

i know how it works. he pushed for it, he asked for it, he said "bring it on" to terrorists, he is the commander in chief. he did not capture bin laden, he is cavalier when that is not what this country needs.
You're not going to get me to bite on that one. I am against the patriot act as well. However, I don't feel that alone is enough to tarnish his reputation as a overwhelmingly average president. Many presidents have in the past done a lot worse.well at least we agree on that one. and i can still have my opinion that he is/was a terrible president. Guantanamo Bay, patriot act, iraq, FMA, tax breaks to the wealthy, this is what i have lived. but i suppose we'll see how history treats him in 50 years.

[Mercy Medical]

They would be stupid not to. Really? This is not a matter of being politically correct. This is a matter of American safety, and the biggest threat is undeniably those radicals in the middle east. It's educated guesses, not random sampling to try and be fair to everyone. If you're making daily calls to middle eastern areas that are known to hold radicals, that is what the government is interested in. Who is going to have ties there? Immigrants who came from there.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

Those middle eastern individuals ARE Americans and they are infringing on their rights.

[sjb2k1]

But Kara, you don't have anything to hide, why do you care what the government does?

LOL

[paper halo]

They would be stupid not to. Really? This is not a matter of being politically correct. This is a matter of American safety, and the biggest threat is undeniably those radicals in the middle east. It's educated guesses, not random sampling to try and be fair to everyone. If you're making daily calls to middle eastern areas that are known to hold radicals, that is what the government is interested in. Who is going to have ties there? Immigrants who came from there.

A line has to be drawn. When the process of ensuring safety infringes on the rights of citizens, the government has gone too far.

[ship of fools]

But it's the premise of the act itself and while they may not be currently, it allows them to have every right to do so without saying why.

It's the principle of the concept that makes it flawed.
I agree. But to take it so personally and the radical shit Bush is getting over it is not warranted. He is not trying to destroy this country. Also, it's not like this is some new totally unheard of policy. The Sedition and Espionage acts during Wilson's administration make this look mild. It's how America ensures safety during crises times, and it's certainly not right. But if you have a better idea I'd love to hear it, then send it in to your Senator and Representative if you really want something done about it.

[Mercy Medical]

But Kara, you don't have anything to hide, why do you care what the government does?

LOL
Hey! I don't have anything to hide! That means I want people all up in my shit! YAHOO!

The fact is the Patriot Act is a slippery slope and gives the government more power then it needs, especially when it's "protecting" us from a threat that the government itself pretty much created.

[Mercy Medical]

I agree. But to take it so personally and the radical shit Bush is getting over it is not warranted. He is not trying to destroy this country. Also, it's not like this is some new totally unheard of policy. The Sedition and Espionage acts during Wilson's administration make this look mild. It's how America ensures safety during crises times, and it's certainly not right. But if you have a better idea I'd love to hear it, then send it in to your Senator and Representative if you really want something done about it.
When did I ever say anything horrific about Bush? I haven't even stated my own personal opinion on the man and if I did you would find that I am not a radical person whatsoever.

Every President has their own flaws. Every President fucks up somehow, it's inevitable. Barack Obama is going to fuck up at some point on something. There's is no perfect person so the fights of "well he did this...." "but he did this so he's worse" are pointless.

This country is in the shitter and Bush is not solely to blame, however, he is to blame for a good handful of things. He was a poor President on many levels for many, many reasons. Some of them big, some of them small.

[ship of fools]

A line has to be drawn. When the process of ensuring safety infringes on the rights of citizens, the government has gone too far.


Again, I agree. but it's really not as bad as people are making it out to be. Everything I said in my post before this, and again, if you have a better idea, let's hear it.

[ship of fools]

When did I ever say anything horrific about Bush? I haven't even stated my own personal opinion on the man and if I did you would find that I am not a radical person whatsoever.

Every President has their own flaws. Every President fucks up somehow, it's inevitable. Barack Obama is going to fuck up at some point on something. There's is no perfect person so the fights of "well he did this...." "but he did this so he's worse" are pointless.

This country is in the shitter and Bush is not solely to blame, however, he is to blame for a good handful of things. He was a poor President on many levels for many, many reasons. Some of them big, some of them small.


Okay that wasn't to you specifically. Still haven't heard a better idea.

[ship of fools]

The patriot act is just a blanket for the government to circumvent the necessary channels of getting shit done. They rarely use it for "terrorism" as "terrorism" has evolved into such a loose fitting term that can be applied to anything that goes against the greater good. Dvd Piracy? Terrorism. Bootleg Designer Bags? Terrorism. Our civil liberties are being trampled by the government and our congress has signed away our rights.


Our rights to get away with doing illegal things? I mean, I see your point. The ends don't justify the means is what you're saying. And again, I agree.


But the way a majority of people are taking it so personally and the outright hatred of Bush over it is not the correct response.

EDIT: I should probably learn to multi-quote.

[wrppdarndyrfngr]

Since you have taken such a strong personal stance against the Patriot Act, how exactly has the Patriot Act harmed you personally?

By the way, Congress decides when we go to war. He did not use the War Act of 1973, why do you put 100% of the blame on Bush?

Again with this:

The " if your innocent , Why do you care?" argument is sad.

So if something doesn't personally affect you , it can't be wrong?

Also under the Patriot Act the government could arrest you without a warrent. not provide you with a lawyer, not try you in front of a judge, not let you provide evidence in you favor, hold you indefinately ,and also would not have to tell anyone you know why you were "arrested" or "taken in for questioning". So if it did affect anyone on here doubt they would be able to say anything about it.

maybe you should ask the the prisoners in Gitmo if the Patriot Act has personally affected them?

its about my rights as a American citizen.
The rights this country was founded on.

My rights should not be taken away.

The more we let them get away with now, the more the government can take away later.
whose says they won't come back the next time there is an terrorist attack and say "ok now we are going to have National IDs that we can track you whereever you go." then its "now we are going to have national curfew, dont worry its for you safety"

Its a very slippery slope.

Quit flattering yourself. The government could give two shits as to what you're doing. You might think you're that important, but trust me, they're not going to waste their resources on a 24 year old pure-blooded American girl who has no history of disloyalty to her country. The government is not "snooping your shit".

Oh my god, no one can prove that they are being listened to or not being listened too. Nor can you prove that we are or not being listened to.

BUT The government is"snooping the shit" of our soldiders, humatarian and aid workers overseas. see below:

However, ABC News reports that the NSA frequently listened to and transcribed the private phone calls of Americans abroad (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Story?id=5987804&page=2), according to two former military intercept operators. These conversations included those of American soldiers stationed in Iraq and American aid workers abroad, such as Doctors Without Borders:
[Former Navy Arab linguist David Murfee] Faulk says he and others in his section of the NSA facility at Fort Gordon routinely shared salacious or tantalizing phone calls that had been intercepted, alerting office mates to certain time codes of “cuts” that were available on each operator’s computer.
“Hey, check this out,” Faulk says he would be told, “there’s good phone sex or there’s some pillow talk, pull up this call, it’s really funny, go check it out. It would be some colonel making pillow talk and we would say, ‘Wow, this was crazy’,” Faulk told ABC News. […]
“We knew they were working for these aid organizations,” [former Army Reserves Arab linguist Adrienne] Kinne told ABC News. “They were identified in our systems as ‘belongs to the International Red Cross’ and all these other organizations. And yet, instead of blocking these phone numbers we continued to collect on them,” she told ABC News.
Kinne called Bush’s assurances that the U.S. was only tracking phone calls of a “known al Qaeda suspect” “completely a lie.” Click here (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Story?id=5987804&page=1) to watch ABC’s report.

---

If that does not make you mad then I dont know what to say to you.

[Adeniz19]

Again, I agree. but it's really not as bad as people are making it out to be. Everything I said in my post before this, and again, if you have a better idea, let's hear it.so we have to wait until something absolutely awful happens because of the patriot act to speak out about it? just because things arent as bad as they could be doesnt make them right.

[Mercy Medical]

Okay that wasn't to you specifically. Still haven't heard a better idea.
Just because no one has been able to provide you with a "better idea" means this one is okay.

It's an infringement of rights. It infringes upon our own constitution. It's giving the government far too much power and it is my personal belief that it is just unnecessary and they are once again using the fear of the American people to capitalize on these situations.

People would not be okay with this if they didn't have this constant "OMG TERRORISM!" idea looming over their heads.

[alice+interiors]

They would be stupid not to. Really? This is not a matter of being politically correct. This is a matter of American safety, and the biggest threat is undeniably those radicals in the middle east. It's educated guesses, not random sampling to try and be fair to everyone. If you're making daily calls to middle eastern areas that are known to hold radicals, that is what the government is interested in. Who is going to have ties there? Immigrants who came from there.
Merely radical by Western standards. They have every right to preaching extreme Islam or whatever is permitted in their country and the fact that they just claim that the Bible is dead and Christian nations are wrong is their choice, it doesn't make them radical.
No, the biggest danger to America is itself, as far as I'm concerned.

[Mercy Medical]

Merely radical by Western standards. They have every right to preaching extreme Islam or whatever is permitted in their country and the fact that they just claim that the Bible is dead and Christian nations are wrong is their choice, it doesn't make them radical.
No, the biggest danger to America is itself, as far as I'm concerned.:appl:

[ship of fools]

Just because no one has been able to provide you with a "better idea" means this one is okay.

It's an infringement of rights. It infringes upon our own constitution. It's giving the government far too much power and it is my personal belief that it is just unnecessary and they are once again using the fear of the American people to capitalize on these situations.

People would not be okay with this if they didn't have this constant "OMG TERRORISM!" idea looming over their heads.

The American people have every tight to have this OMG TERROISM idea looming over their heads. 3000 American's died when we weren't worrying about it.

Again with this:

The " if your innocent , Why do you care?" argument is sad.

So if something doesn't personally affect you , it can't be wrong?

Also under the Patriot Act the government could arrest you without a warrent. not provide you with a lawyer, not try you in front of a judge, not let you provide evidence in you favor, hold you indefinately ,and also would not have to tell anyone you know why you were "arrested" or "taken in for questioning". So if it did affect anyone on here doubt they would be able to say anything about it.

maybe you should ask the the prisoners in Gitmo if the Patriot Act has personally affected them?

its about my rights as a American citizen.
The rights this country was founded on.

My rights should not be taken away.

The more we let them get away with now, the more the government can take away later.
whose says they won't come back the next time there is an terrorist attack and say "ok now we are going to have National IDs that we can track you whereever you go." then its "now we are going to have national curfew, dont worry its for you safety"

Its a very slippery slope.



Oh my god, no one can prove that they are being listened to or not being listened too. Nor can you prove that we are or not being listened to.

BUT The government is"snooping the shit" of our soldiders, humatarian and aid workers overseas. see below:

However, ABC News reports that the NSA frequently listened to and transcribed the private phone calls of Americans abroad (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Story?id=5987804&page=2), according to two former military intercept operators. These conversations included those of American soldiers stationed in Iraq and American aid workers abroad, such as Doctors Without Borders: [Former Navy Arab linguist David Murfee] Faulk says he and others in his section of the NSA facility at Fort Gordon routinely shared salacious or tantalizing phone calls that had been intercepted, alerting office mates to certain time codes of “cuts” that were available on each operator’s computer.
“Hey, check this out,” Faulk says he would be told, “there’s good phone sex or there’s some pillow talk, pull up this call, it’s really funny, go check it out. It would be some colonel making pillow talk and we would say, ‘Wow, this was crazy’,” Faulk told ABC News. […]
“We knew they were working for these aid organizations,” [former Army Reserves Arab linguist Adrienne] Kinne told ABC News. “They were identified in our systems as ‘belongs to the International Red Cross’ and all these other organizations. And yet, instead of blocking these phone numbers we continued to collect on them,” she told ABC News.
Kinne called Bush’s assurances that the U.S. was only tracking phone calls of a “known al Qaeda suspect” “completely a lie.” Click here (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Story?id=5987804&page=1) to watch ABC’s report.

---

If that does not make you mad then I dont know what to say to you.


Good, they're catching the abuses. The media is doing it's job. What right's of yours are exactly being taken away? Look, I am not in support what the Patriot Acts allows us to do. It gives too much power to our government. I fucking hate the idea of Big Brother. But my stance, at least originally, was not to defend the Patriot Act, but to defend the unwarranted hate towards George Bush due to this issue.

[ship of fools]

Merely radical by Western standards. They have every right to preaching extreme Islam or whatever is permitted in their country and the fact that they just claim that the Bible is dead and Christian nations are wrong is their choice, it doesn't make them radical.
No, the biggest danger to America is itself, as far as I'm concerned.


Are you serious? They killed 3,000 Americans and justified it through extreme Islam.

[Jason Tate]

I respect what you say 9 times out of 10. This is one topic we don't see eye to eye on.

I think you need to pop in another conspiracy theory film about 9/11
I don't believe 9/11 was a conspiracy, I believe the attacks were from foreign terrorists. I just believe he used the attacks opportunistically and used the populace's irrational fears to make them do things they usually wouldn't.

[sjb2k1]

Are you serious? They killed 3,000 Americans and justified it through extreme Islam.and a majority of them were from saudi arabia, but we're still pals with that country.

[Mercy Medical]

Are you serious? They killed 3,000 Americans and justified it through extreme Islam.
Do you know how many people we have killed over the years as a country and justified it with some reason?

What up Hiroshima and Nagasaki?! How many innocent lives did we kill then? A hell of a lot more then they did on 9/11. Does that make either one right? No. All I'm saying is that we honestly have no room to talk and could easily be viewed as a terrorist threat by other countries...

[ship of fools]

I don't believe 9/11 was a conspiracy, I believe the attacks were from foreign terrorists. I just believe he used the attacks opportunistically and used the populace's irrational fears to make them do things they usually wouldn't.

What was irrational? They rammed 2 planes into buildings to knock them down and kill thousands of Americans. It is completely rational to see that and realize under the current circumstances they can easily cause more detestation.

[ship of fools]

Do you know how many people we have killed over the years as a country and justified it with some reason?

What up Hiroshima and Nagasaki?! How many innocent lives did we kill then? A hell of a lot more then they did on 9/11. Does that make either one right? No. All I'm saying is that we honestly have no room to talk and could easily be viewed as a terrorist threat by other countries...
America fucked up. It doesn't give anyone else the right to do the same thing to us. Two wrongs don't make a right.

EDIT: Whelp, my comp is about to die. Can't wait to click and read all the links Tate responds with now that he's here.

[Mercy Medical]

America fucked up. It doesn't give anyone else the right to do the same thing to us. Two wrongs don't make a right.
You're obviously missing my point...

[Jason Tate]

What was irrational? They rammed 2 planes into buildings to knock them down and kill thousands of Americans. It is completely rational to see that and realize under the current circumstances they can easily cause more detestation.
The odds of dying in a terrorist attack are less than being hit by lightening like 5 times. The entire goal of terrorism is big, bold events that scare the masses or the "strong" into acting disproportionately. This continues the cycle of terrorism and always benefits the terrorists -- not the government.

Utilizing the fear to attack Iraq, or the fear to pass the Patriot Act, or the fear to win another election -- all capitalized on the collective irrationality of the masses.

[boykosaurus]

They would be stupid not to. Really? This is not a matter of being politically correct. This is a matter of American safety, and the biggest threat is undeniably those radicals in the middle east. It's educated guesses, not random sampling to try and be fair to everyone. If you're making daily calls to middle eastern areas that are known to hold radicals, that is what the government is interested in. Who is going to have ties there? Immigrants who came from there.

This post is infuriating. So if an Arab/Middle Eastern American calls his/her family in the area they're from we can invade their privacy?

[alice+interiors]

Are you serious? They killed 3,000 Americans and justified it through extreme Islam.
No, they did not justify it through that. They called it a strike towards America because of it's constant oppression of Islamic culture, which was totally true (although I am in no way condoning the attacks).
Fact: 9/11 could have been prevented through NORAD and the American air force, regardless of whether they had intelligence on the matter.
They were also massively incited and perhaps even encouraged by the Bush administration into such a deed.

[GiggsOho]

i cant even multi-quote all of the stupidity and narrow-mindedness coming from ship of fools. Bottom-line is this - what you spew is exactly what has allowed the Bush administration to get away with what they have done - fear, racial profiling, and the ignorance/denial of the inner working of the Bush policies and their detrimental impact on the country.

You want America to just sit back and say "Terrorists attacked! The President SHOULD go beyond the means of law! People SHOULD be scared!"

I say no. I'm not scared. The extremists want to tear us down because 1) they hate what we stand for and 2) we have been so successful as a country overall in the ideals that we do stand for, and they hate it. I will not have my rights infringed upon because radical Islam wants to tear the U.S. down.

In short I say, fuck them, this country should not close the avenues of liberty and freedom because Radical Islam struck at us. This country stands for something no matter who dislikes it, and who attacks it.

Call it rhetoric, call it drivel, but I will not sacrifice my rights because someone doesn't like them. Fuck. That.

[wrppdarndyrfngr]

No, they did not justify it through that. They called it a strike towards America because of it's constant oppression of Islamic culture, which was totally true (although I am in no way condoning the attacks).


9/11 was blowback against America’s Middle East policy. It was directed by Islamic terrorists mad at America’s support for Israel and military /political envolvement in the Middle East.

the war in Iraq has only "embolded" terrorists more.

[xshady121]

Our rights to get away with doing illegal things? I mean, I see your point. The ends don't justify the means is what you're saying. And again, I agree.


But the way a majority of people are taking it so personally and the outright hatred of Bush over it is not the correct response.

EDIT: I should probably learn to multi-quote.

We also are innocent until proven guilty. The laws are set up so that the government (and law enforcement agencies) can't just arrest us because they "think" we're guilty. Even if we did do something wrong, we have the right, as citizens of the US, to place the burden of proof on the government. They have a certain set of procedures they must go through to get that proof (warrants). They can't just decide "warrants impede our ability to do a swift investigation, so we'll just forego those in the spirit of the greater good". That infringes upon our civil liberties. Whether or not I broke the law is irrelevant; I expect the government to go through the proper channels to ascertain that evidence. Red tape isn't my problem , and I don't feel like giving up my civil liberties due to government laziness.

[GiggsOho]

We also are innocent until proven guilty. The laws are set up so that the government (and law enforcement agencies) can't just arrest us because they "think" we're guilty. Even if we did do something wrong, we have the right, as citizens of the US, to place the burden of proof on the government. They have a certain set of procedures they must go through to get that proof (warrants). They can't just decide "warrants impede our ability to do a swift investigation, so we'll just forego those in the spirit of the greater good". That infringes upon our civil liberties. Whether or not I broke the law is irrelevant; I expect the government to go through the proper channels to ascertain that evidence. Red tape isn't my problem , and I don't feel like giving up my civil liberties due to government laziness.


:appl: :appl: :appl:

[IceTech]

Soon, the banks will run out of paper to print money on and the entire country will collapse into China's arms. The amounts of debt generated by the two current wars, that has been provided by China, is staggering. It is not long before a truly serious stock market crash, I am sure of it.

Did You Know:

Although the federal debt is high at $10 trillion, it's just 38 percent of gross domestic product, below post WWII levels. Our country is not going to "collapse into China's arms". Do you realize how interdependent we are with China? They buy up our currency and we buy all their goods. Your doomsday scenario is unwarranted.

[IceTech]

I agree that the Republicans used the fear of terrorism as a political tool (shameless, obviously). But 9/11 was NOT an inside job. No fucking way any government could pull it off. If we can't even respond to a hurricane, succeed in Iraq, etc. there's no way we could pull off the logistics, planning, and secrecy to pull off 9/11. And if their goal was to institute a new American century based on fear and fascism, they obviously failed since Obama was elected and will now reverse a great deal of Bush policies.

[Mercy Medical]

I agree that the Republicans used the fear of terrorism as a political tool (shameless, obviously). But 9/11 was NOT an inside job. No fucking way any government could pull it off. If we can't even respond to a hurricane, succeed in Iraq, etc. there's no way we could pull off the logistics, planning, and secrecy to pull off 9/11. And if their goal was to institute a new American century based on fear and fascism, they obviously failed since Obama was elected and will now reverse a great deal of Bush policies.
As far as the whole 9/11 conspiracy thing goes, I think it's plausible. While I'm not 100% sold on the idea, I'm probably 70% or so. From some videos and documentaries I've seen, they present a very convincing argument. Obviously this can go both ways, but I'm open to the idea that it was an inside job.

[Adeniz19]

No one in this thread is saying 9/11 was an inside job.

edit: nevermind haha.

[apoemtothedead]

People thinking 9/11 was an inside job. :shake:

[1Roth4]

As far as the whole 9/11 conspiracy thing goes, I think it's plausible. While I'm not 100% sold on the idea, I'm probably 70% or so. From some videos and documentaries I've seen, they present a very convincing argument. Obviously this can go both ways, but I'm open to the idea that it was an inside job.


Well, you're 70% wrong then.

[1Roth4]

i guess i can agree with the masses on one thing.

[Mercy Medical]

Well, you're 70% wrong then.
Dude, don't get so god damn defense. I said I was open to the idea. I didn't come in here spouting off how I think it's true and it is the truth and everyone should believe it.

[Jason Tate]

Did You Know:

Although the federal debt is high at $10 trillion, it's just 38 percent of gross domestic product, below post WWII levels. Our country is not going to "collapse into China's arms". Do you realize how interdependent we are with China? They buy up our currency and we buy all their goods. Your doomsday scenario is unwarranted.
I would hope it's below post WWII levels -- it shouldn't be anywhere close to those levels.

[Matthew Tsai]

I have zero respect for Dubya. He ruined so many things in this country globally and domestically.

lol, Bush has absolutely nothing to do with 9/11, but that was definitely a product of the neo-cons which Bush is not.

Bush was always just a mere pawn in their game. He's just a silly Texas man who never had any business being President of this country.

Anyone in this thread see W. yet? It really creates a pathetic and sad image of Bush. He really was never meant to be a President, and it really was about looking for acceptance from his father.

Bush should've just stayed with Baseball.

he would've just pitched to iraq

lolololo punpunpun

[apoemtothedead]

I have to disagree with whoever you just quoted. I thought W. portrayed Bush in a positive light.

[1Roth4]

Dude, don't get so god damn defense. I said I was open to the idea. I didn't come in here spouting off how I think it's true and it is the truth and everyone should believe it.

70% is pretty convinced.

Don't fall into the trap. All the proof that you need is that the guy who is presenting these theories is still alive.

boom. theory dismissed.

[Matthew Tsai]

i think the focus should be: bush - probably a decent guy who is one of the worst presidents in history. now clear the way for BObama.

[1Roth4]

I have to disagree with whoever you just quoted. I thought W. portrayed Bush in a positive light.

no hollywood film would be that stupid.

[apoemtothedead]

no hollywood film would be that stupid.
Nah it did and I think the movie's image is correct. He's just a guy along for the ride that listens to the terrible advice of his advisers and vice president.

[1Roth4]

Nah it did and I think the movie's image is correct. He's just a guy along for the ride that listens to the terrible advice of his advisers and vice president.

ill have to watch it. surprising to hear that though.

[CarryOn09]

bush - probably a decent guy who is one of the worst presidents in history

i agree. he seems like an alright PERSON. just an absolutely terrible president.

[Machu505]

I'm more likely to get hit by lightning than die in a terrorist attack.