Messopotamia and Middle East Thread

[boykosaurus]

I figured rather than having threads that eventually lead to discussions of Iraq or Iran that we could discuss these topics here in addition to issues across the MENA region.

I don't know how many of you like discussing subjects such as the different forms of authoritarian rule in the Middle East--monarchies tend to be my favorite :blush:--or agricultural development in Jordan, but as a Middle East/Arab/Islamic studies student I'd like to pull everything having to do with the Middle east into one thread.

I'll try to keep this thread active by posting news every few days in hopes that it doesn't disappear.

In the meantime, here's a list for resources if you guys are ever interested.

Books - general history, I may introduce more specific topic lists later
A History of the Modern Middle East (http://www.amazon.com/History-Modern-Middle-East/dp/0813340489/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1227996876&sr=1-1)
The Contemporary Middle East (http://www.amazon.com/Contemporary-Middle-East-Contributions-Goldschmidt/dp/0813343399/ref=pd_sim_b_15)
Understanding the Contemporary Middle East (http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Contemporary-Middle-Schwedler-Jillian/dp/158826565X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1227997037&sr=1-1)

Islam: A Mosaic, Not a Monolith (http://www.amazon.com/Islam-Mosaic-Monolith-Vartan-Gregorian/dp/081573283X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1227997180&sr=1-1)
God is One: The Way of Islam (http://www.amazon.com/God-One-R-Marston-Speight/dp/0377001961/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1227997233&sr=1-1) - Hihgly recommended
The Message of the Qur'an (http://www.amazon.com/Message-Quran-Muhammad-Asad/dp/1904510353/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1227997302&sr=1-11) - Recommended if you are really interested in reading the Qur'an

Orientalism (http://www.amazon.com/Orientalism-Edward-W-Said/dp/039474067X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1227997461&sr=1-1) - I don't agree with everything Said presents, but the general idea is excellent

Blogs

http://arabist.net/ - deals wiht most issues in the Arab world, some Egyptian focus

http://www.black-iris.com/ - local Jordanian stuff mixed with random thoughts

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/ - excellent overall for most areas

http://americanbedu.com/ - insight into Saudi Arabia from an ex-pat

http://www.juancole.com/ - duh

http://www.joshualandis.com/blog/ - excellent coverage of Syria


TL;DR - post about the Middle East

[Machu505]

A very very interesting region of the world.

[Skadrist]

Are we doing historic Middle East or the Present Socio-geographic one which includes Arab/Berber North Africa and places like Pakistan?

[boykosaurus]

North Africa is a definite, even the Berber populations. I would like to draw the line at Iran, but Afghanistan and Pakistan do play important roles in the region so I see no problem in bringing them into the picture.

[Praetor]

A real Mesopotamia fan would know how to spell Mesopotamia. ;-)

[GuitarR0cker1]

The Middle East is very interesting, too bad most people know next to nothing about the region when it is so important to us.

[boykosaurus]

A real Mesopotamia fan would know how to spell Mesopotamia. ;-)

See: Daily Show

[boykosaurus]

;-)

[boykosaurus]

I hadn't heard of this before. Apparently many American (?) conservatives are pointing the finger at the shi'i concept of "taqiya", suggesting that this allows the Iranians to lie about their nuclear program. But of course it's not that simple. Interesting read if you have the time to do further research past this article.

Taqiya (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/583227/taqiya) is commonly understood as dissimulation in order to protect one’s life, family, or the faith. It developed in Shi’i jurisprudence (http://muslimlawprof.org/2008/10/22/taqiya-dissembling-and-antimuslim-bigotry.aspxTaqiyya) as a defense against persecution by Sunnis or non-Muslims. It is not simply a license to lie, nor is it simply a technique to “lull an enemy,” as Rubin claims here (http://aei.org/publications/pubID.28896,filter.all/pub_detail.asp).

http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2008/11/08/taqiya/

[Praetor]

See: Daily Show
I haven't seen that episode, but I assume it has something to do with that region being a mess? haha that's clever.

[boykosaurus]

I haven't seen that episode, but I assume it has something to do with that region being a mess? haha that's clever.

Yeah, it's like that "Poor Road to the Culsterfuck House" or whatever that segment is. It used to be a daily segment that had a neat little graphic and clever spelling, but I think I may have made a mistake since they spell it Mess-o-potamia.

[boykosaurus]

OPEC taking action with the current international economy.

The meeting came as the global financial crisis and plummeting demand continued to suppress oil prices, which have dropped from nearly $150 a barrel in July to about $54 today. King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, the leading producer in the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries, was quoted by a Kuwaiti newspaper as saying that $75 a barrel was a "fair price."

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/2008/11/ministers-from.html

I think $75 is fair, but I would hope that these oil producing countries start looking at other ways to be wealthy in the future. Oil won't be around forever.

[boykosaurus]

E-mail your reps and let them know that you want a different option to be taken toward Iran. (http://capwiz.com/justforeignpolicy/issues/alert/?alertid=12212141&type=CO) The link does most of the work for you.

[born to expire]

I hadn't heard of this before. Apparently many American (?) conservatives are pointing the finger at the shi'i concept of "taqiya", suggesting that this allows the Iranians to lie about their nuclear program. But of course it's not that simple. Interesting read if you have the time to do further research past this article.



http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2008/11/08/taqiya/

I haven't heard of this either, interesting.

I'm an American conservative, but I base my opinion off the cold, hard facts. Plenty of my liberal friends feel the same way. You've got a country that has fissionable material, has had ties with terrorist organizations/AQ Khan, refuses help from the Western world with conducting peaceful nuclear development, preaches anti-Western/Israeli rhetoric (I don't care if the President isn't # 1), and won't let UN inspectors see the real deal. What are you hiding? Let's be serious here.

[thatwasamoment]

Its great to see OPEC in such panic. Now that the price of oil is so low, they claim that the "fair" market price is between 75$-90$. So its only fair that they try to bring the price back up.

Funny, cause I remember them saying they had NO CONTROL when the price was 150$ per barrel.

Also, I can't wait to take my birthright trip to Israel in 09

[boykosaurus]

I haven't heard of this either, interesting.

I'm an American conservative, but I base my opinion off the cold, hard facts. Plenty of my liberal friends feel the same way. You've got a country that has fissionable material, has had ties with terrorist organizations/AQ Khan, refuses help from the Western world with conducting peaceful nuclear development, preaches anti-Western/Israeli rhetoric (I don't care if the President isn't # 1), and won't let UN inspectors see the real deal. What are you hiding? Let's be serious here.

I just don't understand why we didn't take the initiative with the "grand bargain", we could have made a lot of progress and be in a different and better situation now. I really don't see any of this being resolved until we go back to '79.

Its great to see OPEC in such panic. Now that the price of oil is so low, they claim that the "fair" market price is between 75$-90$. So its only fair that they try to bring the price back up.

Funny, cause I remember them saying they had NO CONTROL when the price was 150$ per barrel.

Also, I can't wait to take my birthright trip to Israel in 09

Have fun dude. I hope I can go to Israel some day.

[tambam]

I love studying the ancient history of the region. Makes me proud to be from there, even though so many things have changed.

[Burning Star IV]

I love ancient studies. The Persian Empire is by far the most fascinating of all ancient cultures.

[boykosaurus]

From Yahoo! News

Former President Jimmy Carter has written a new book on the Middle East with a title he hopes will not be as controversial as the last one, which was called, "Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid."

Carter said Wednesday night that "We Can Bring Peace to the Holy Land" will be published in January, just after the inauguration of President-elect Barack Obama.

[saysmydoctor]

Let's talk about how Alexander the Great is the cause of all Middle Eastern problems.

[boykosaurus]

Let's talk about how Alexander the Great is the cause of all Middle Eastern problems.

Eh, I don't know my history that far back. Book or link that could help me out?

[saysmydoctor]

Eh, I don't know my history that far back. Book or link that could help me out?
Just a personal opinion from my own perspective on history. He tore down numerous empires. Created instability transitively.

[Skadrist]

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/southasia/news/article_1447101.php/50_NATO_trucks_set_ablaze_in_Pakist an_


A second major attack on NATO logistics in Pakistan.

[open mind]

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/southasia/news/article_1447101.php/50_NATO_trucks_set_ablaze_in_Pakist an_


A second major attack on NATO logistics in Pakistan.

i don't see us getting troops into the country to guard supplies happening....looks like it's time to re-route supply lines

[boykosaurus]

The question is how do we re-route without incurring a staggering cost. Airlifting is out of the question and other routes take longer, could be more dangerous, and the energy to take them is not cost-efficient.

[boykosaurus]

It looks like Iran is cutting back it's involvement in arming insurgents/constructing bombs that go to Iraq.

The US says there has been a big drop in the number of Iranian-made bombs in recent months, suggesting Iran has decided to rein in militants.
Read more here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7779333.stm).

[Skadrist]

The question is how do we re-route without incurring a staggering cost. Airlifting is out of the question and other routes take longer, could be more dangerous, and the energy to take them is not cost-efficient.

The US would have to reroute through Russian and other former Soviet States; all in all the US will quiet literally have to beg the Russians and after the rhetoric they gave them in August during the Georgia crisis this might prove to be more difficult than it seems.

BTW I am still angry how that conflict was presented in the US media. Shit the recent Newsweek was saying "Georgia may have provoked Russia" welcome to 4 months ago dumb asses.

[boykosaurus]

Interesting news.

The Syrian government announced on Tuesday that it will adopt an anti-smoking law “to protect people from the negative consequences of smoking on health, economy and environment”.

I think it could have some success--unlike in other places such as Egypt where smoking is rampant and riots would probably break out. But it is a bold move considering the role of smoking in many Middle Eastern countries. I can't imagine going back and not being allowed to enjoy my sheesha and tea on a terrace. M-(

[boykosaurus]

This just in, Gaza is fucked.

That is all.

[thatwasamoment]

Israel & Hamas need to get their shit together and work out a 2-state solution before it's too late. It's only a matter of time before one of these retaliatory strikes sets off an avalanche. I can only hope this isn't the one.

[boykosaurus]

xqravOE9q90

and an additional vid...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7801662.stm

I'm searching for a good news story to see where this is going.

[scenopath]

I just finished studying Iran in my Comp. Gov. class, and reading The Last Great Revolution by Robin Wright. Easily one of the most interesting governments I've studied...

[John JD Dorian]

this is sad for the people in gaza, but that's what happens when you elect a terrorist government.

a government needs to protect its citizens. israel is doing that now, and hamas failed.

[boykosaurus]

I just can't comprehend the disproportion, it's just so brutal.

And of course America has its head up its ass...

NKeMqD_rILM

[Lueda Alia]

I'm personally so sick of this conflict. Both sides need to chill out and realize that they have to find a way to co-exist with each other. Neither side is going to disappear anytime soon, so they really have no other choice.

[captainhampton]

I'm personally so sick of this conflict. Both sides need to chill out and realize that they have to find a way to co-exist with each other. Neither side is going to disappear anytime soon, so they really have no other choice.


what do you think wouldve been the appropriate response for Israel?

[Lueda Alia]

what do you think wouldve been the appropriate response for Israel?
Well, certainly not the course of action they took.

[captainhampton]

Well, certainly not the course of action they took.

why not?

[Lueda Alia]

I'm not surprised that that's not self-explanatory for you. Because over 300 people have died and thousands have been injured. The attack has been excessive.

[boykosaurus]

It's sad how quickly the body count rose in a day.

[captainhampton]

I'm not surprised that that's not self-explanatory for you. Because over 300 people have died and thousands have been injured. The attack has been excessive.

the strikes were very accurate in hitting Hamas targets and avoiding civilian casualties. how is it excessive? so what if Hamas fires some rockets in Israel, the Israelis should only fire the same amount back? if Hamas is going to provoke these attacks, then Israel has every right to hit them back with overwhelming force. btw, where was your outrage at Hamas when they fired into civilian areas? unlike Hamas, Israel doesn't hide behind civilians and use them as human shields. if you are outraged at the civilian casualties, you should express some of your outrage at Hamas for setting up shop in civilian areas on purpose.

[Lueda Alia]

the strikes were very accurate in hitting Hamas targets and avoiding civilian casualties. how is it excessive? so what if Hamas fires some rockets in Israel, the Israelis should only fire the same amount back? if Hamas is going to provoke these attacks, then Israel has every right to hit them back with overwhelming force. btw, where was your outrage at Hamas when they fired into civilian areas? unlike Hamas, Israel doesn't hide behind civilians and use them as human shields. if you are outraged at the civilian casualties, you should express some of your outrage at Hamas for setting up shop in civilian areas on purpose.
Why do you even pick sides? Really, why do you? Both sides are to blame here. Neither is innocent.

And what outrage? How many Israelis were actually killed by these rockets? How many Israelis have died during this whole conflict compared to the number of the Palestinians that have lost their lives? See, it can go both ways. I personally don't care about either people more than the other. I just want them to stop this because it's clearly not going to solve anything. I also want the world to stop blaming everything on Palestine. Both sides are guilty and completely incapable of reaching an agreement.

And the attack is excessive because of the reason I gave above. You clearly don't care about Palestinians to even begin to consider the attack excessive.

[boykosaurus]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gfiT8Cg2IT0vxuuMYu5864tEzLfw (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/media/ALeqM5ijpa_nSNTCgymV5qwLrV_HxH4kAg? size=m)

Map of the conflict thus far.
(http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/media/ALeqM5ijpa_nSNTCgymV5qwLrV_HxH4kAg? size=m)

[Lueda Alia]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gfiT8Cg2IT0vxuuMYu5864tEzLfw (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/media/ALeqM5ijpa_nSNTCgymV5qwLrV_HxH4kAg? size=m)

Map of the conflict thus far.
(http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/media/ALeqM5ijpa_nSNTCgymV5qwLrV_HxH4kAg? size=m)
The question on "who ended the truce" seems to be debatable. I guess it all depends on what you choose to believe at this point, since there are sources blaming both sides.

[boykosaurus]

Interesting turn in a fundamentalist group in Egypt.

The Egyptian Islamist movement Jamaat Islamiya has called for Al Qaeda to adopt a four-month truce and to cease any operations against the United States, the West and other countries, as they await “the fair, practical stances of the new American president.” Its request came shortly after Al Qaeda leader Abu Yahya al Libi urged for attacks to be launched on Western states

Derbala called upon the Al Qaeda leadership to extend its hand in peace. He said, “What harm would it cause if you told Obama what you want and you said: we extend our hand in peace based on common interests and achieving good for humankind. We extend our hand for the sake of peace and achieving independence for Iraq and Afghanistan. We extend our hand for the sake of peace and realizing the hopes of our Islamic nations so that we can live under Islamic rule in accordance with our creed based on the rules of Sharia that we cherish and defend.”

http://www.asharqalawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=1&id=15497

[boykosaurus]

Iraq's Shi'ite Muslim voters chose nationalism and security over religion in local polls, backing allies of the prime minister in a vote that could give them the upper hand in parliamentary elections later this year.

Results from Saturday's election are due later on Thursday, and early signs point to potentially big wins for Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki's allies at the expense of the Supreme Islamic Iraqi Council (ISCI), which had dominated the Shi'ite south.


http://www.asharqalawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=1&id=15619

[Liter-O-Cola]

I figure this seems like an appropriate place to discuss this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/09/world/middleeast/09israel.html?ref=todayspaper

What do you guys think about Lieberman? Dangerous demagogue or the best chance for a two-state solution? Or both? His anti-Arab rhetoric seems to dangerous to me for him to be a positive Israeli leader, but his willingness to compromise some Israeli land for a two-state solution is interesting.

[boykosaurus]

Lieberman confuses the hell out of me, and I think Israeli politics are confusing as well. I've been following it a bit and I think we'll have to wait and see how a more prominent position will effect further policy towards Palestine. I think Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza could benefit more than those in Israel though, granted that more attacks don't occur.

[boykosaurus]

In other news, the Israel-Syria relationship won't improve anytime soon.

Benjamin Netanyahu, the front-runner in polls ahead of Israel's election this week, declared Sunday he would not give up the strategic Golan Heights for peace with Syria, an apparent attempt to toughen his right-wing credentials after a last-minute charge by a hardline party.

"The Golan will never be divided again, the Golan will never fall again, the Golan will remain in our hands," he declared during his campaign stop there. Netanyahu and his backers consider the strategic value of the territory as more important than a peace treaty.

http://www.asharqalawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=1&id=15665

[born to expire]

In other news, the Israel-Syria relationship won't improve anytime soon.



http://www.asharqalawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=1&id=15665

I wrote a big paper on Israeli-Syrian relations over a year ago. Extremely interesting subject. Peace isn't going to happen unless Israel gives up the Golan and Syria makes a conscious effort to oppose terrorism and dis-align itself from Iran. I can't see either of those happening anytime soon, unfortunately.

[boykosaurus]

Cairo bomb blast kills one young tourist and injures many others.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7904949.stm?lss

[Skadrist]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/iraq-faces-a-new-war-as-tensions-rise-in-north-1629343.html


Rising Sunni Arab and Kurdish tensions in Northern Iraq

[xshady121]

Not this one.

[caveBEAR]

:viking: LET'S BUMP 'EM ALL!!!!