And We Wonder Why There Was No Support?

[Cal Smith]

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/washpost/20050516/pl_washpost/oil_for_food_benefited_russians__re port_says)

"The documents outline a trail of oil and money that leads directly from Iraq to the Kremlin and the former chief of staff to Russian President Vladimir Putin and former president Boris Yeltsin. The report said Iraq sought to influence and reward the Russian government because it sits on the powerful U.N. Security Council that oversaw sanctions against the Hussein government. Russia repeatedly sided with Iraq on issues before the Security Council"

[kchubb]

And don't forget about the billions the French and Germans stood to loose with Hussians fallout... maybe that had something to do with it too...

[turtlefootrx]

And don't forget about the billions the French and Germans stood to loose with Hussians fallout... maybe that had something to do with it too...

not that im saying youre wrong, but id like to see the proof behind that. i am completely not suprised by the russians, but the french and germans?

[Cal Smith]

It's absurd to complain about the US going into Iraq without UN approval when there was no possible way we could have gotten the vote when you have almost half the council itself in bed with Saddam getting oil. That's your true 'no war for oil'

[Lueda Alia]

And don't forget about the billions the French and Germans stood to loose with Hussians fallout... maybe that had something to do with it too...
And don't forget the fact that you were lied about the reasons you were taken to war for. Err, I mean.. "misled".

So what's the moral of the story? Everyone wanted things to happen their way for the oil in Iraq, America included. There's no "bad" or "good" guy in all of this. Iraq was victim of the powerful countries. Of course, isn't that always the case? I think History can prove that this is true. It's sad that people never learn from the past, they always get fooled in some way or another. I wonder what people are going to think of us in like 50-100 years. They will probably think we were all stupid, just like we think all the people who followed Hitler (and all other assholes in power) were. I wouldn't blame them for thinking we're dumbasses... we just keep repeating past mistakes.

[brandnizzle32]

America Fuck Yea

[Cal Smith]

And don't forget the fact that you were lied about the reasons you were taken to war for. Err, I mean.. "misled".

So what's the moral of the story? Everyone wanted things to happen their way for the oil in Iraq, America included. There's no "bad" or "good" guy in all of this. Iraq was victim of the powerful countries. Of course, isn't that always the case? I think History can prove that this is true. It's sad that people never learn from the past, they always get fooled in some way or another. I wonder what people are going to think of us in like 50-100 years. They will probably think we were all stupid, just like we think all the people who followed Hitler (and all other assholes in power) were. I wouldn't blame them for thinking we're dumbasses... we just keep repeating past mistakes.

ummm..........where to begin (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A38650-2004Jul9?language=printer)

"A year ago, the Senate Committee on Intelligence made a commitment to the Congress and the American people that we should examine the quality and the quantity of intelligence that led to the war in Iraq."............................"While we did not specifically address it in our report, it is clear that this group-think also extended to our allies and to the United Nations and several other nations as well, all of whom did believe the Saddam Hussein had active WMD programs. This was a global intelligence failure."............................"Finally, the committee found no evidence that the intelligence community’s mischaracterization or exaggeration of intelligence on Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction capabilities was the result of politics or pressure. In the end, what the president and the Congress used to send the country to war was information that was provided by the intelligence community and that information was flawed."

[richter915]

ya but see, I don't understand how pro-war people can stand behind that because those other nations who had misled evidence or whatever u wanna call it...not all of them went to war...there was Russian and French intelligence saying those things...but the US went to war...that's why you can point the finger.

And you point out Russia like they did the wrong thing...their ties with Iraq are like our ties with Saudi Arabia...if we had the relationship russia had with Iraq...there would be no war in Iraq right now, can't you guys just accept that? Or do you really feel that politicians care that much about the freedom of people halfway around the world...

[Cal Smith]

And you point out Russia like they did the wrong thing...their ties with Iraq are like our ties with Saudi Arabia...if we had the relationship russia had with Iraq...there would be no war in Iraq right now, can't you guys just accept that? Or do you really feel that politicians care that much about the freedom of people halfway around the world...

No........completely, completely different. Saudi Arabia is not under sanctions and dealing with them is not illegal. Dealing with Iraq was. Which goes back to my point.

[JWKingofNerds]

"...all of whom did believe the Saddam Hussein had active WMD programs. This was a global intelligence failure.""

Bullshit (http://www.absolutepunk.net/showthread.php?t=71272)

[Cal Smith]

Bullshit (http://www.absolutepunk.net/showthread.php?t=71272)

I dont understand why you're linking the memo and what that has to do with the part you pulled out to quote about the senate intelligence committee's conclusions?

[JWKingofNerds]

It wasn't a "global intelligence failure" is my point. It wasn't "bad intelligence", it was lies.

[Cal Smith]

It wasn't a "global intelligence failure" is my point. It wasn't "bad intelligence", it was lies.

So the UN, Israel, the US, Britian, Russian intelligence, and whoever else were all in on the lie? I could see the US and Britian being in on the lie......but the UN and Russia and pretty much every country that signed the resolution for Iraq to give up it's WMD programs were in on the lie?

If that's the case.............who wasnt? You're not putting forward a very convincing or even strong argument simply by saying "it was lies".

[kchubb]

not that im saying youre wrong, but id like to see the proof behind that. i am completely not suprised by the russians, but the french and germans?

The French...

"As of last year, Iraq owed France an estimated $4 billion for arms and infrastructure projects, according to French government estimates. U.S. officials thought this massive debt was one reason France opposed a military operation to oust Saddam. "

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20040908-123000-1796r.htm

The French, German, Russian and Chinese...

"For these nations, Iraq is a major player. France alone sells Iraq nearly one-quarter of all its imports. Russia and China each control 5.8 percent of Iraqi imports. Germany is believed to have $1.35 billion in annual trade with Iraq, directly or indirectly. Iraqi Trade Minister Mohammed Mehdi Salah announced that, as of early 2001, UN sanctions had cost $200 billion in lost trade to Iraq’s trading partners, including $40 billion to Russia, $35 billion for France and $25 billion to China. As one FrontPage author pointed out some time ago, even the UN itself benefited economically from the sanctions and inspections regime. Perhaps this accounts, in some small measure, for these entities’ lenient stance toward Iraq.

And Iraqi trade continued growing, even through last year. France has become Iraq’s top European trading partner, displacing Russia. Nearly 60 percent of French companies have business ties with Iraq, pulling in $1.5 billion annually. France ranks as Iraq’s third largest trading partner under the UN’s Oil-for-Food program, raking in $3.1 billion since 1996. (Russia is number one, incidentally, with a cool $4.3 billion.) France has felt no need to go to war to leverage Iraq’s oil; the French oil company Total Fina Elf has received the option to explore an estimated 25 percent of Iraq’s oil supply.

Nor is France alone in getting a piece of Saddam’s oil. Russia’s LUKoil inked a $4 billion deal to rehabilitate a West Qurna oil field, effective upon the lifting of UN sanctions; while Zaruezhneft (also of Russia) signed a projected $40 billion pact with Hussein last year allowing the company to explore oil fields in western Iraq.

The "silent partner" in the anti-liberation force, China, also signed an agreement for a 22-year-long exploration in the Al Ahdab oil fields. "

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=7216

[Love As Arson]

Bad behavior doesn't justify bad behavior.

Some people say history doesn't repeat itself, but if you look to the Mexican-American war, you can see the parallels between it and Iraq.

[richter915]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/un_oil_for_food

pwned...well sorta...it relates in some ways...

No........completely, completely different. Saudi Arabia is not under sanctions and dealing with them is not illegal. Dealing with Iraq was. Which goes back to my point.
so you're referring to the UN sanctions and that it's illegal under the UN's decision...like the US gives a rat's ass about that...The UN didn't approve of the war, did we listen? You can't support the UN's strength and integrity here but bash it in other places. I remember reading earlier that the UN has put over fifty sanctions against Israel but the US has strong ties with Israel regardless...But I digress...

I'm not saying the relationship is exactly the same...but again we all know that the US pulls the majority of the weight in the UN (along with Britain who probably always agrees with US) so why would we allow for there to be sanctions and inspections on a nation the US would consider an ally? There are definite problems with terrorism and humans rights violations in Saudi Arabia (along with like China too right?) but nothing is done.

And ya... just... http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/un_oil_for_food ...we're not all too great ourselves.

[Cal Smith]

so you're referring to the UN sanctions and that it's illegal under the UN's decision...like the US gives a rat's ass about that...The UN didn't approve of the war, did we listen? You can't support the UN's strength and integrity here but bash it in other places. I remember reading earlier that the UN has put over fifty sanctions against Israel but the US has strong ties with Israel regardless...But I digress...

I'm not saying the relationship is exactly the same...but again we all know that the US pulls the majority of the weight in the UN (along with Britain who probably always agrees with US) so why would we allow for there to be sanctions and inspections on a nation the US would consider an ally? There are definite problems with terrorism and humans rights violations in Saudi Arabia (along with like China too right?) but nothing is done.

And ya... just... http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/un_oil_for_food ...we're not all too great ourselves.

What!?! Your agrument is that the US relationship with Saudi is the same as the Russian relationship with Iraq. I'm just pointing out that your characteristic is dead wrong because one is illegal and the other is not. The point in the oil-for-food was for humanitarian purposes. What Russia and other countries did was line the pockets of Saddam, and in turn helped the humanitarian cause. Yet it always comes back to the US for ya'll............(the US has nothing to do with the relationship of Russia with Iraq or any other country for that matter so why bring it back to them?)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/un_oil_for_food

pwned...well sorta...it relates in some ways...


That's not any sort of pwning...........you're failing to realize the difference between a privately owned company breaking the law like perhaps this TX oil company has, and the Chief of Staff or Russia doing it. One involves government at the top levels and one doesnt.

[splitsecond]

Bad behavior doesn't justify bad behavior.

Some people say history doesn't repeat itself, but if you look to the Mexican-American war, you can see the parallels between it and Iraq.

Explain. I know quite a bit about that area of history, but I am not following. Maybe it's because I am tired.

[urowndisaster52]

[QUOTE=Love As Arson]Bad behavior doesn't justify bad behavior.
QUOTE]
it can if nobody pays attention to the original bad behavior