brady or (peyton) manning?

[theguy77]

obviously its not a question of who has proven themselves more or done better with their career because brady would win easily. who do you think is the better quarterback on any team and why?

i mostly bring this question up because my choice is manning and thats proven to be highly controversial every time its been brought up in a conversation, i was curious just how many people disagree with me.

[rcrook]

first person to disagree with you

[FondestMemory]

ben roethlisberger.

[theguy77]

first person to disagree with you

cool, cool... whats your reasoning?

[theguy77]

ben roethlisberger.

is this you sarcastically choosing the underdog or being serious?

[WhoSaidThat?]

first person to disagree with you
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

[theguy77]

lol you tried hard

[smogs]

I say Manning, but that's more because I hate Brady for various reasons, most of them stemming from the fact that I'm a Chargers fan and Brady has beat us so many times. Arrrrrgh.

[about3fitty]

manning. who doesnt like a 6'5'' 230 lb quarterback with a laser-rocket arm

[smogs]

manning. who doesnt like a 6'5'' 230 lb quarterback with a laser-rocket arm

i miss peyton manning commercials. those pep talks were so good.

[about3fitty]

haha me too. i think my favorite is the haircut one

"I've been workin' this doo since i was like five"

[rcrook]

i don't think you can ask this question and say that we can't talk about accomplishment because accomplishment is something that makes a quarterback better than another qb. i'm going to try and not talk about the pats last year because he was surrounded by much more talent (moss, welker) than in previous years. until last year brady was the pats only offensive pro bowler since 2001. brady won 3 super bowls and played the majority of his career throwing to guys like deion branch, david givens and david patten while manning has been throwing to harrison, wayne and clark. brady has been a fantastic quarterback with half of the talent level manning has around him. brady did a near perfect job with medicore receivers and once he was given talent like manning has had for most of his career he showed how dominate of a quarterback he can be. i am not going to discount peyton at all he is a great quarterback but i would like to see what he would have done with guys like branch, givens and patten around him, i doubt he would been nearly as good as brady.

[theguy77]

i mean that was back when brady was posting QB ratings in the 90s. iin that same time period peyton manning posted a record 121.1 QB rating for the SEASON, back in a time when, yeah, he did have one of the best wide receivers of this era in marvin harrison, but reggie wayne hadn't yet been fully developed so he was more along the lines of a number 2 receiver than a number 1 (although a VERY legitimate target especailly in the single coverage he normally had back then), and his slot receivers (stokley, moorehead) were really nothing special or out of the ordinary. clark, or pollard whoever it was in '04, did have speed for the TE position as well. but lets be real here, a number of great QBs (warner for example) had/have setups like this and had trouble barely reaching triple digit QB ratings for an entire season. offensive line is a non-issue as well since brady was just as spoiled as manning was in that department.

now you look at brady, especially last year. he had a number one WR who is easily one of the most physically talented of any WR in the league's history, running a 4.25 40' and with his like 42 inch vertical leap. he had three other receivers who ran under a 4.4 -- even his slot receivers. you even have ben watson who's also got loads of speed for a tight end. you put that team in a spread offense (which they did ridiculously often) and have them running slants you will make any defense look like the NCAA, there isnt a defense in the league with enough finesse, speed, and depth to cover five receivers like that, the only defenses who came close did so by pushing pressure in brady's face, those who dropped back in coverage still got picked apart (hell, look at the jaguars, we basically played prevent the whole playoff game and brady set the record for highest completion percentage in a game). and to put on pressure like that you had to have one REALLY stacked front 7, like baltimore, san diego, and the new york giants had, because brady also had an o-line LITERALLY full of all-pro players. i mean brady had the best setup any quarterback has ever had, call it an assumption but unless maybe we're talking pre-merger i dont see who you could say had better. and guess what? he still didn't beat manning's QB rating record with all that.

about the whole accomplishment and winning big games thing, brady has always had a huge thing manning never had: DEFENSE. the pats D has been reputable since the bledsoe days, whereas the colts D has been complete trash forever except for that one year where bob sanders emerged and nobody knew how to block a guy with dwight freeney's speed. easier to win big games when you dont have pressure to score on every drive, becuase the other team can score right back.

also noteworthy: manning was the first quarterback in NFL history to call all his plays at the line with signals, not to mention throwing out fake signals just to keep himself undiscovered.

[RunInTheFront]

I choose Manning, only because as a Bill's fan, Brady and the Patriots can go fuck themselves.

[theguy77]

come on guys, if you're gonna side with manning please at least have a better reason than "i hate brady". hell im a jaguar fan and i have to deal with the colts outdoing our good seasons and making us take wild card spots when we go fucking 12-4, but i still go manning.

[RunInTheFront]

come on guys, if you're gonna side with manning please at least have a better reason than "i hate brady". hell im a jaguar fan and i have to deal with the colts outdoing our good seasons and making us take wild card spots when we go fucking 12-4, but i still go manning.

Alright, if I put aside my Bills allegiance for a moment, I would still say Manning is better. The Patriots have been more of a complete team, both on offense and defense throughout the past few years, where as the Colt's defense, as well as their offense at times, has been spotty. Then, factor in Harrison, who is taking on a lesser role every year, hence forcing Manning to go to other receivers like Wayne and Clark, as well as an unstable running game up until this year it seems, and Manning had to do more at his position than Brady. Essentially, Brady, while having tons of talent, is a product of a system, where as Manning can create and improvise and really lead his team.

[CubbyNick42]

I'm the biggest Brady fan on the planet, but all else being equal, I'd take Manning.

[crit]

This seems like a strange time for this discussion.

[LeftWideOpen]

yeah, I think we've had this debate about a 1/2 dozen times over the years.

my basic opinion is that there is really no accurate way to take these guys out of their systems and predict what they'd do in each other's shoes. they are both QB's who have thrived in their respective systems. they both have unique skill sets. so, i would refer to their resumes and i don't think Manning is in the same league as Brady there.

that could change, though. neither guy is at the end of their road, by any means. we'll see what they do from this point forward. right now, i'm taking brady.

[thatsignant]

well this also brings to question what is a better way to judge a quarterback, by individual statistics or team success?

[preppyak]

well this also brings to question what is a better way to judge a quarterback, by individual statistics or team success?
If you're Michael Wilbon, its entirely by team success....because Phillip Rivers, on a 6-8 team, isn't even in the same discussion as Brett Favre for Pro Bowl (good thing Tony never brought up Drew Brees).

I think W-L and Super Bowls is a good measure for settling close calls (Brady/Manning, etc)...but, I'm not gonna pretend that Kerry Collins is as good a QB as Drew Brees this year...just because he has twice the wins. I think you have to account for things like completion percentage (it'd be great if there was a stat that factored in drops as well), yards per completion (its easy to have an 70% completion rating when you throw 5 yard passes v 15-20yd passes), TD's, etc.

I'm not sure, as a quarterback, there are truly individual stats like there are in baseball...so it makes the argument more subjectively based, but to judge more by team success than statistics, to me, is the wrong way to go about it initially.

[Chris M.]

Alright, if I put aside my Bills allegiance for a moment, I would still say Manning is better. The Patriots have been more of a complete team, both on offense and defense throughout the past few years, where as the Colt's defense, as well as their offense at times, has been spotty. Then, factor in Harrison, who is taking on a lesser role every year, hence forcing Manning to go to other receivers like Wayne and Clark, as well as an unstable running game up until this year it seems, and Manning had to do more at his position than Brady. Essentially, Brady, while having tons of talent, is a product of a system, where as Manning can create and improvise and really lead his team.

...?? Did you mean to say something else? Indy's run has probably had their worst year while Manning's been QB. Don't forget that back when they had Edgerrin James, he was one of the best backs in the entire league.

[rcrook]

i mean that was back when brady was posting QB ratings in the 90s. iin that same time period peyton manning posted a record 121.1 QB rating for the SEASON, back in a time when, yeah, he did have one of the best wide receivers of this era in marvin harrison, but reggie wayne hadn't yet been fully developed so he was more along the lines of a number 2 receiver than a number 1 (although a VERY legitimate target especailly in the single coverage he normally had back then), and his slot receivers (stokley, moorehead) were really nothing special or out of the ordinary. clark, or pollard whoever it was in '04, did have speed for the TE position as well. but lets be real here, a number of great QBs (warner for example) had/have setups like this and had trouble barely reaching triple digit QB ratings for an entire season. offensive line is a non-issue as well since brady was just as spoiled as manning was in that department.

now you look at brady, especially last year. he had a number one WR who is easily one of the most physically talented of any WR in the league's history, running a 4.25 40' and with his like 42 inch vertical leap. he had three other receivers who ran under a 4.4 -- even his slot receivers. you even have ben watson who's also got loads of speed for a tight end. you put that team in a spread offense (which they did ridiculously often) and have them running slants you will make any defense look like the NCAA, there isnt a defense in the league with enough finesse, speed, and depth to cover five receivers like that, the only defenses who came close did so by pushing pressure in brady's face, those who dropped back in coverage still got picked apart (hell, look at the jaguars, we basically played prevent the whole playoff game and brady set the record for highest completion percentage in a game). and to put on pressure like that you had to have one REALLY stacked front 7, like baltimore, san diego, and the new york giants had, because brady also had an o-line LITERALLY full of all-pro players. i mean brady had the best setup any quarterback has ever had, call it an assumption but unless maybe we're talking pre-merger i dont see who you could say had better. and guess what? he still didn't beat manning's QB rating record with all that.

about the whole accomplishment and winning big games thing, brady has always had a huge thing manning never had: DEFENSE. the pats D has been reputable since the bledsoe days, whereas the colts D has been complete trash forever except for that one year where bob sanders emerged and nobody knew how to block a guy with dwight freeney's speed. easier to win big games when you dont have pressure to score on every drive, becuase the other team can score right back.

also noteworthy: manning was the first quarterback in NFL history to call all his plays at the line with signals, not to mention throwing out fake signals just to keep himself undiscovered.


are we really going to use quarterback rating as a benchmark? it's the worst stat in football, if we used qb rating to say who was the best quarterback then phillip rivers would be the best quarterback this season which is so far from the truth.

[xbrokendownx]

i dont think QB rating is that bad of a stat...

[theguy77]

are we really going to use quarterback rating as a benchmark? it's the worst stat in football, if we used qb rating to say who was the best quarterback then phillip rivers would be the best quarterback this season which is so far from the truth.

i mean he is putting up some pretty sick numbers (almost a 3 to 1 TD:INT ratio, on pace to break 4000 yards) even if their record doesnt show it but lets be real here that team has a lot of fucking problems. i mean does the saints record and horrid defensive performance take away from brees? if you think so then that right away is a massive reason why we disagree. quarterbacks dont win games by themselves, they're just the easiest to blame and/or take credit since they're the leader of the offense.

i would say that although quarterback rating can be misleading due to the weight it puts on yards per completion (which is overall a good thing anyway in my estimation, clearly you have to be much more consistent to be rated highly if you dink and dunk it down the field) it's a pretty solid indication of how well a quarterback is performing.

a large part of my argument was also that, yeah tom brady did prove himself by playing on teams without offensive talent around him, but having a good defense is a HUUUGE part of his successful side, and his setup last year was much better than any setup manning or any other QB ever had (manning never had great slot receivers, he only had harrison and wayne in both of their primes at the same time in 2006 which wasnt even his best statistical year) and the numbers really were only better by the slightest margin if you remove QB rating, but peyton does have that massive edge on yards per completion anyway.

i also found a stat that says since the colts drafted manning in 98 they have the best 3rd and 4th down conversion rate of any team. thats an amazing stat.

[theguy77]

...?? Did you mean to say something else? Indy's run has probably had their worst year while Manning's been QB. Don't forget that back when they had Edgerrin James, he was one of the best backs in the entire league.

edgerrin james breaking down the D-lines and forcing LB penetration was a huge advantage to peyton manning, thats undeniable. however, if you were to take it a step further and say addai/rhodes make peyton's passing easier, you would have to say maroney/faulk made brady's passing easier, and that just like is not even close to being true hahah, its definitely the other way around in those cases. also note brady had corey dillon one of his years.

[WTG]

How I have always seen it, the two were roughly even for the longest time, with the difference being the quality of receivers. Peyton used to have the edge up on Tom Brady, and I always heard the question "how would Tom Brady be with receivers the caliber that Peyton has?" Tom Brady started off with a bunch of, lets face it, mediocre receivers. Then, he got Randy Moss and Wes Welker, among others, and the question was definitely answered. Tom Brady is by far the better Quarterback. He has out shined Peyton for so long now, and I just don't believe that Peyton is in his league.

[theguy77]

How I have always seen it, the two were roughly even for the longest time, with the difference being the quality of receivers. Peyton used to have the edge up on Tom Brady, and I always heard the question "how would Tom Brady be with receivers the caliber that Peyton has?" Tom Brady started off with a bunch of, lets face it, mediocre receivers. Then, he got Randy Moss and Wes Welker, among others, and the question was definitely answered. Tom Brady is by far the better Quarterback. He has out shined Peyton for so long now, and I just don't believe that Peyton is in his league.

i mean but not really though, haha, look at brady's numbers for the 07 season and mannings numbers for the 04 season. there really is not that big a difference. the only difference is brady had the first perfect 16-game regular season in NFL history, he put his best season up more recently, and he broke manning's touchdown record (but only by ONE, and that has a lot to do with the fact that bill belichick didnt mind continuing to THROW touchdowns when they were leading by 30 in the fourth quarter), so theres a lot more publicity surrounding it. add that to the publicity already surrounding brady and the patriots for winning so many damn superbowls and brady is clearly much more PRESTIGIOUS than manning, but prestige =/= talent, prestige is just a way to further inflate the image of a very talented player.

and dont get me wrong i'll never discount brady, weve seen him win and post great numbers on mediocre offensive squads, thats enough to cement him next to manning as the clear-cut best QBs since the marino/young era. (people like favre, warner, elway arent THAT far off though)

man i keep thinking up new stuff as i go but manning's also got the stronger arm for sure.

[smogs]

first person to disagree with you

i like your avatar. and your headline thingy.

[Chris M.]

a large part of my argument was also that, yeah tom brady did prove himself by playing on teams without offensive talent around him, but having a good defense is a HUUUGE part of his successful side, and his setup last year was much better than any setup manning or any other QB ever had (manning never had great slot receivers, he only had harrison and wayne in both of their primes at the same time in 2006 which wasnt even his best statistical year) and the numbers really were only better by the slightest margin if you remove QB rating, but peyton does have that massive edge on yards per completion anyway.

I'd say Brandon Stokley was/is a pretty good slot receiver. Obviously he's no where near the caliber of slot receiver Wes Welker is, but he did put up some pretty nice years in Indy before he got injured and missed most of '06. He also had a pretty decent year last year with over 600 yards and he's got over 400 yards this year. Obviously he's seeing less targets than he would have because of the emergence of Royal and Scheffler this year, but he's a pretty solid receiver when called upon.

[sweethypocrisy]

Eli by far.

[xbrokendownx]

lol wut

[theguy77]

I'd say Brandon Stokley was/is a pretty good slot receiver. Obviously he's no where near the caliber of slot receiver Wes Welker is, but he did put up some pretty nice years in Indy before he got injured and missed most of '06. He also had a pretty decent year last year with over 600 yards and he's got over 400 yards this year. Obviously he's seeing less targets than he would have because of the emergence of Royal and Scheffler this year, but he's a pretty solid receiver when called upon.

yeah but all in all i'd say hes what you expect out of a #3 WR, maybe he might be a high-end #3, but hes only a #2 on teams who really lack receiving talent.

[theguy77]

another big point: take brady away for a WHOLE SEASON, the backup comes in, throws 400 yard games, and they still build themselves up to a legitimate playoff contender. but could you imagine the colts with sorgi at the helm? that ladies and gentlemen is how you would reverse the numbers on a season record, if not worse.

[rcrook]

what the fuck? can you please exempt last season because of his talent around brady, which cassell is currently working with. you act like brady has been working his whole career with guys like moss and welker.

[rcrook]

can you also look at the fact that cassell is a much better qb than sorgi

[theguy77]

what the fuck? can you please exempt last season because of his talent around brady, which cassell is currently working with. you act like brady has been working his whole career with guys like moss and welker.

when he was working with mediocre guys his QB ratings were in the 90s, maybe one of the years he posted a rating in the low 100s. thats impressive but hell david garrard did that and got 102.2 last year, id argue our receiving options last year were even worse than brady ever had. and besides, mannning's never really had a bad setup around him, so theres really no way of knowing how he would perform in that situation. so if you cant compare them when they had their worst setups, why not compare them when they had their best setups? im comparing brady's 07 record breaking season to manning's 04 record breaking season, i think thats pretty fair.

and brady HAS always worked with a great defense.

[theguy77]

can you also look at the fact that cassell is a much better qb than sorgi

true but i feel the colts would not post a winning season with any non-first string quarterback

[rcrook]

when tom brady won the super bowl in 2001 his defense was ranked 24th overall. 24/32 is good right?

[glassjaw777]

the man with more rings.

[Swayback]

Eli by far.


+1.

[xbrokendownx]

are you people picking Eli being serious or....

[IAmNietzche]

Cassell could absolutely and positively post a winning record and be in contention for the playoffs if he was behind center for the Colts. No question.

[thatsignant]

Cassell would post a winning record as QB for most teams

[+thecalisonme]

Cassell would post a winning record as QB for most teams
no he wouldnt you must be crazy, id go with Peyton since hes had the pressure since high school as being the greatest talents ever and hes lived up to them and i think the play of Cassel takes a little away from Brady cuz maybe it isnt him thats so great maybe its bill

[LeftWideOpen]

Belichick doesn't call the offensive plays.

I really have a hard time equating Brady's success to Belichick, beyond the fact that he stuck with him after Bledsoe returned from injury.

if you want to credit any coaches, it would be Weis and McDaniels.

[preppyak]

Eli by far.
are you people picking Eli being serious or....
I think they're joking...anyone being serious with that also assumes they'd take a good year out of Kordell Stewart (whose 1997 season is statistically similar, scarily so, to Eli's first 3 seasons). And actually, last year was one of his worst seasons TD/INT and Rate wise...though he has steadily improved his completion percentage.

This year though, he's made marked improvement in accuracy...and the direct result is fewer INT's, more YPC for his recievers, and an 11-3 record instead of a 9-7 record. If Eli had had 4-5 seasons like this season (by the odds, he'd also likely have had a year with more passes and probably close to 4000yds), maybe you could pretend he's in the discussion...but, not yet, not for a while

[more heart]

obviosly tom brady has a winning history, but peyton manning has always had the numbers. plus he's nicer than tom brady(this poll said tom brady or peyton manning, not who's the better quarterback?)

[preppyak]

Cassell could absolutely and positively post a winning record and be in contention for the playoffs if he was behind center for the Colts. No question.
Agreed
no he wouldnt you must be crazy, id go with Peyton since hes had the pressure since high school as being the greatest talents ever and hes lived up to them and i think the play of Cassel takes a little away from Brady cuz maybe it isnt him thats so great maybe its bill
I'm not sure its possible for you to be more wrong...he's done something Peyton has never done (back-to-back 400yd games), and you can't tell me he's just some smuck who had 30+ of the right plays called, in consecutive games, which led to that yardage. In the first, he completed 60% of his passes, despite throwing over 50. He wasn't just Rex Grossman'ing it either, he had two completions over 20yds and a TON of 15ish yarders. He spread the ball around, despite Randy Moss being a mostly non-factor. Oh, and no interceptions. Which he then followed up with a 70% completion, 415yd, 3TD performance against Miami, who has a pretty good defense

You make it sound like Cassel is Jamarcus Russel, throwing 10 passes a game and relying on the team to run all game long. Dude's projected to finish the season with these numbers:

63.8% completion, 3737yds, 21TD, 13INT. He's in the top 10 in essentially every category. And want to give the credit to his O-line? They've given up a league leading 45 sacks...3 a game basically. And his defense allows 22pts a game. The one advantage he's had over Brady is their run game has been improved (because they are simply carrying the ball more among other things), but the terrible O-line in pass protection makes his stats pretty impressive

But yeah, you're right, he couldn't lead the Colts to 9-7...

[thatsignant]

I'm not sure its possible for you to be more wrong...he's done something Peyton has never done (back-to-back 400yd games), and you can't tell me he's just some smuck who had 30+ of the right plays called, in consecutive games, which led to that yardage. In the first, he completed 60% of his passes, despite throwing over 50. He wasn't just Rex Grossman'ing it either, he had two completions over 20yds and a TON of 15ish yarders. He spread the ball around, despite Randy Moss being a mostly non-factor. Oh, and no interceptions. Which he then followed up with a 70% completion, 415yd, 3TD performance against Miami, who has a pretty good defense

You make it sound like Cassel is Jamarcus Russel, throwing 10 passes a game and relying on the team to run all game long. Dude's projected to finish the season with these numbers:

63.8% completion, 3737yds, 21TD, 13INT. He's in the top 10 in essentially every category. And want to give the credit to his O-line? They've given up a league leading 45 sacks...3 a game basically. And his defense allows 22pts a game. The one advantage he's had over Brady is their run game has been improved (because they are simply carrying the ball more among other things), but the terrible O-line in pass protection makes his stats pretty impressive

But yeah, you're right, he couldn't lead the Colts to 9-7...

yep, i was just about to say this same thing verbatim

[Spicoli hey bud]

i mean that was back when brady was posting QB ratings in the 90s.
Brady was a college backup in the 90s

[xbrokendownx]

i think he meant 90s as in the QB rating number, not the years

[+thecalisonme]

Agreed

I'm not sure its possible for you to be more wrong...he's done something Peyton has never done (back-to-back 400yd games), and you can't tell me he's just some smuck who had 30+ of the right plays called, in consecutive games, which led to that yardage. In the first, he completed 60% of his passes, despite throwing over 50. He wasn't just Rex Grossman'ing it either, he had two completions over 20yds and a TON of 15ish yarders. He spread the ball around, despite Randy Moss being a mostly non-factor. Oh, and no interceptions. Which he then followed up with a 70% completion, 415yd, 3TD performance against Miami, who has a pretty good defense

You make it sound like Cassel is Jamarcus Russel, throwing 10 passes a game and relying on the team to run all game long. Dude's projected to finish the season with these numbers:

63.8% completion, 3737yds, 21TD, 13INT. He's in the top 10 in essentially every category. And want to give the credit to his O-line? They've given up a league leading 45 sacks...3 a game basically. And his defense allows 22pts a game. The one advantage he's had over Brady is their run game has been improved (because they are simply carrying the ball more among other things), but the terrible O-line in pass protection makes his stats pretty impressive

But yeah, you're right, he couldn't lead the Colts to 9-7...
so youre saying matt the great would be leading the lions to at least 6 wins

[Spicoli hey bud]

Well that makes sense.

Maybe the kid should learn how to type coherent sentences.

[preppyak]

so youre saying matt the great would be leading the lions to at least 6 wins
I don't believe any QB, Brady, Manning, etc could post 4 wins for the Lions...I think Manning might have a shot at 4 just because he could work with Calvin Johnson, but the Lions aren't "most teams", and so that was never the argument. It was that he could lead MOST teams there.

I don't think he could lead the Lions, Rams, or Chiefs to .500...because they arent anywhere near .500 teams to begin with, and it wasn't neccessarily QB play that killed them.

But teams that are around .500 now would be the same absolutely with him (Eagles, Saints, Redskins might be a bit better in some facets), I think teams that struggled because of terrible QB play (49ers, Oakland for example) might have a win or two more at least. And you don't think the Vikings would have benefited from him over Gus Frerotte? A guy who is mobile and has arm strength to throw it deep...they might have already clinched the division (Gus lost them at least one game)

My argument was never that he was a great QB, he's a good QB for this season. But, you called the notion that a decent team could go .500 with him crazy. You don't think Cincy would be 4-9 instead of 2-11 if they didn't have Fitzpatrick and instead had a guy who has proven he can spread the ball around to good WR's? Heck, they have close losses to Cleveland, Baltimore, and that tie in Philly, that with a serviceable QB with a solid arm, might well have been wins.

I think, on a team with a bad QB, he's good for a few wins...and on a team that currently has 6+ wins that has a QB not named Peyton, they'd probably be about the same. The Patriots offensive schemes have helped, but its not like he can't play and is getting lucky week to week...you don't drop 800yds in 2 games against playoff teams if you can't hack it

edit: Put simply, yes, I believe that for at least 16 teams in the league, Matt Cassel would be a QB that could lead them to a .500 season...and the only teams I can think of where he'd be a downgrade, those teams are mostly at 11-3 or something like that anyway

[Chris M.]

How many times are you guys going to spell Cassel's name wrong? There's only one l.

[theguy77]

Cassell could absolutely and positively post a winning record and be in contention for the playoffs if he was behind center for the Colts. No question.

Cassell would post a winning record as QB for most teams

cassel has really shown a lot this season. but back to the point, manning means more to the colts than brady does to the patriots, he MAKES them win games. look at thursday their defense was trash and they rushed for maybe 20 yards.

[theguy77]

Brady was a college backup in the 90s

hahaha, i got owned by that pun

[theguy77]

when tom brady won the super bowl in 2001 his defense was ranked 24th overall. 24/32 is good right?

his numbers werent that special that year. under 3,000 yards, 18 TDs to 12 INTs, QB rating of 86.7... and i even overstated his years with mediocre wideouts, his best QB ratings before last year were 92.6 in '04 and 92.3 in '05, all his other years were in the 80s. he's been efficient, and won important games for sure but looking at the numbers its not like he was really sweeping the floor.

now look at manning's QB ratings: 71, 91, 95, 84, 89, 99, 121, 104, 101, 98, and this season 94. barring his rookie season in which he started every game while tom brady got a bench year to learn the offense, hes only had one mediocre year, to go along with three spectacular triple digit years including the one that holds the NFL all-time record. also, manning has NEVER thrown for under 3,700 yards in a season, and hes only got two seasons that went under 4,000. and this season's shaping to be another 4,000 yard year unless he passes for under 100 next week. i dont think you can possibly argue that tom brady is technically better than manning with those statistics.

[rcrook]

what about playoff performance. tom brady is the better quarterback.

brady 26 tds, 12 ints (6 coming in 2 games against SD), 62.5% completion percentage, 88 qb rating.
manning 21 tds, 17 ints, 61.8 completion perecentage, 84.4 qb rating

[theguy77]

what about playoff performance. tom brady is the better quarterback.

brady 26 tds, 12 ints (6 coming in 2 games against SD), 62.5% completion percentage, 88 qb rating.
manning 21 tds, 17 ints, 61.8 completion perecentage, 84.4 qb rating

completion percentage is very comparable. what's killing the QB rating (also pretty close for a limited pool of games) is the 17 ints, but 8 of them came in manning's superbowl year so they obviously didnt matter, while 4 of them came in one game against the pats in the 2003 season, when they were the eventual superbowl champs and had one of the best secondaries this era has seen with rodney harrison, ty law, AND asante samuel, plus tedy bruschi adding picks and richard seymour and mike vrabel racking up sacks. that was a damn good year for new england defense -- something that contributed on several playoff occassions to keeping pressure off of brady in these playoff games. and brady's had a lot more playoff games to rack up the touchdowns.

[rcrook]

and manning has had less games to rack up those ints so what's your point?

[theguy77]

and manning has had less games to rack up those ints so what's your point?

this is true, but here are my main points:

1) brady's always had a defense to keep the pressure off save his first superbowl year, manning never has save his 2005 year. this is especially important coming to playoff games, because this essentially means manning has to force more passes than brady against the league's best defenses, with more pressure to answer scores.
2) peyton's best year is overall better than tom's best year, and although peyton had a great offense around him brady's in 07 was still miles better
3) peyton has a much higher yards per attempt average, meaning hes a more efficient passer and completes more difficult throws
4) peyton has the stronger arm by a mile

[theguy77]

your playoff stats presented an excellent point though, not gonna lie that one's hard to refute. i love a good discussion haha.

[rcrook]

to further touch on your big emphasis on qb rating. Daunte Culpepper, Chad Pennington, Trent Green, and Jeff Garcia all have better career qb ratings than Dan Marino, Brett Favre, Warren Moon and John Elway. So that means they're instantly better amirite?

[theguy77]

to further touch on your big emphasis on qb rating. Daunte Culpepper, Chad Pennington, Trent Green, and Jeff Garcia all have better career qb ratings than Dan Marino, Brett Favre, Warren Moon and John Elway. So that means they're instantly better amirite?

pennington and green at least had more EFFICIENT individual performances over their careers -- hell if pennington retired after this season he'd hold the NFL record for highest career completion percentage with 65.6, that's pretty incredible. and he hasnt really ever had a supporting cast to help him with that like culpepper did with the vikings 10 years ago. marino, favre, and elway are legends but i mean they did force a lot of throws (havent seen much performance of warren moon to include him in this) i mean you can still see favre making dumb interceptions all the time in the midst of his turnaround of the jets, however they all had/have the fiercest willpower and leadership that made them win important games, and when those forced throws turned into impossible plays that turned games around which turned seasons around and advanced them in the playoffs i mean its those kinds of things that get you to that point. however, not to take away from any of those four incredible quarterbacks but "legend" is more a term of prestige and accomplishment than talent, and it requires not only talent but also publicity, and the opportunity to get to important games with the supporting cast to get you there. this doesnt change the idea that QB rating is a good judge of the efficiency of the quarterback's play, and that's important when deciding who's actually a technically better quarterback by themselves. it'd be crazy to say peyton manning isnt a technically better quarterback than john elway was for example, elway never touched manning's '04 performance despite having a similar setup in his latest superbowl years with rod smith, ed mccaffrey, and other legends terrell davis and shannon sharpe.

now i know that basically proves your point that when discussing the greatness of a quarterback, accomplishment is an unavoidable part of it, but how can you honestly look at peyton manning and say he hasnt accomplished great things? he singlehandedly turned around the colts franchise and led them to 8 playoff winning seasons in 10 years in the league despite only having a defense ranked above the middle of the pack for ONE of those years. he completely changed the quarterback position to where he becomes the ultimate leader and renders defensive gameplanning almost useless becuase no matter what defense you come out in he's going to read it and he's going to tailor a play for it, tom brady does this too now but manning is the one who revolutionized it. manning broke multiple single season records, only to have brady barely inch past some of them becuase the team around him was better and because belichick continued to beat up on losing teams in the fourth quarter with the pass. brady has an incredible 3 rings but manning worked his way up to the colts first one in 36 years, so its not like peyton hasnt won that biggest game. and now you look at this season, even after a slow start due to a missed training camp and preseason, hes conjured 4th quarter comeback after 4th quarter comeback, making his team win 8 straight games and now they're in the playoffs despite a running game ranked 31st and a horrid defense for ball control, ranked 25th against the run. new england's been without brady all year and they still post a winning season and a very legitimate shot at the playoffs. and that giant paragraph is all talk about peyton's accomplishments and not even scraping the surface of where he has the talent edge on brady.

[rcrook]

i'm all for having this discussion but you need to make your posts more dr. seuss and less mark twain.

[theguy77]

Since the Colts drafted Manning in 1998, the team has the highest conversion rate on 3rd down (44.6%) and 4th down (61.1%) plays out of every team in the league. While leading the Colts all the way to their Super Bowl XLI victory in 2006, Manning and the Colts set a NFL record by converting 56.1% of their 3rd downs in the regular season.

Manning holds NFL records for consecutive seasons with over 4,000 yards passing and the most total seasons with 4,000 or more yards passing in a career. Among active NFL QB's, Manning has the highest career passer rating with a rating of 94.6 and ranks second all-time.

Highest career passing yards/game average: 260.2
Most seasons with 12+ wins as a starter (regular season only): 6
Most games with a perfect passer rating, career: 4

just a few other great recrds hes broken that ive yet to mention. oh, and my favorite:

Led the biggest comeback in conference championship game history (18 pts), 1/21/07 vs. New England

[theguy77]

i'm all for having this discussion but you need to make your posts more dr. seuss and less mark twain.

haha, sorry about that. i find a lot of things to say. in a nutshell the top paragraph explains that QB rating is still a good judge of "efficiency" and that being an efficient and technically good quarterback is different from being a legend because legend status requires so many other irrelevant things, and the bottom paragraph talks about peyton's accomplishments.

[rcrook]

brady


87–24 (regular season), 101–27 (career) as a starter
19.05 passing attempts per touchdown (career)
43.35 passing attempts per interception (career)
7–0 (career) in overtime games
27–5 (career) vs NFC teams
84–1 (regular season) when the Patriots have a lead at any time in the fourth quarter
28 game-winning drives after a Patriots' fourth-quarter tie or deficit


post season records



NFL record for most consecutive wins in post season: 10 (broke record of Green Bay's Bart Starr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_Starr)).
Most consecutive post season wins (college and professional combined): 12
3 Super Bowl victories
2 Super Bowl MVP awards
Most completions in a Super Bowl (32 in Super Bowl XXXVIII)
Most career Super Bowl completions (100 in four games)
Highest completion percentage in a single game, minimum 20 attempts (26 of 28, 92.9%, against Jacksonville in 2007 AFC Divisional round)[36]
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Brady#cite_note-35)

[rcrook]

basically they both have amazing records and statistics and we can throw as much stuff at each other as we want but we're never going to agree. they're the 2 best currently plain and simple.

[speakhandsforme]

Peyton is the obvious choice. While I maintain that Carson Palmer is actually the most talented passer in the league, Peyton is the most applicable to any team while Brady is, at least partially, a product of a system: Peyton is a system in himself. If the offensive lines and skills positions were completely equal across the league, I'm not even sure if Tom Brady would even be a top five quarterback, statistically mind you.

[theguy77]

basically they both have amazing records and statistics and we can throw as much stuff at each other as we want but we're never going to agree. they're the 2 best currently plain and simple.

yeah, i just wanted to see how well i could construct an argument for manning, cause when this discussion happens in real life, and the 3 other people involved go for brady, they're talking over you and saying "3 superbowls" so many times you dont get to get any of the facts in haha.

but i have to just say 28 game winning drives cant be a record becuase manning has 36 ;)

[theguy77]

Peyton is the obvious choice. While I maintain that Carson Palmer is actually the most talented passer in the league, Peyton is the most applicable to any team while Brady is, at least partially, a product of a system: Peyton is a system in himself. If the offensive lines and skills positions were completely equal across the league, I'm not even sure if Tom Brady would even be a top five quarterback, statistically mind you.

well said, but i dont think you can really make the "product of a system" argument for either QB because they've never played for anyone else, and theyve both played under the same offensive coordinator their whole careers, which means same playbook

[theguy77]

wow the polling is really close im surprised

[c_rob2700]

This is tough because Brady still has a lot left to play and Manning's career is starting to wind down (age wise, not performance wise)
I'd have to go with Manning at the moment. Simply because of seniority.


(not a Colts fan btw)

[Chris M.]

Age wise his career is winding down? He's one year older than Brady.

[rcrook]

lol Peyton is 32, he's got another 5 years left at least

[cahrishurr]

This is tough because Brady still has a lot left to play and Manning's career is starting to wind down (age wise, not performance wise)
I'd have to go with Manning at the moment. Simply because of seniority.


(not a Colts fan btw)

wow

[+thecalisonme]

to further touch on your big emphasis on qb rating. Daunte Culpepper, Chad Pennington, Trent Green, and Jeff Garcia all have better career qb ratings than Dan Marino, Brett Favre, Warren Moon and John Elway. So that means they're instantly better amirite?
brett favre is a turnover machine and warren moon wasnt a great passer but he was one of the first mobile qbs

[rcrook]

warren moon is 4th all time in passing yards and completions...

[speakhandsforme]

brett favre is a turnover machine and warren moon wasnt a great passer but he was one of the first mobile qbs

John Elways had FAR more interceptions per touchdown passes than Brett Favre....and I'm not going to even address the second statement because it is just so...wrong..

[rcrook]

Favre is 1.5 touchdowns per interceptions thrown
Elway is 1.3 touchdowns per interceptions thrown

how the hell can you say Elways had FAR more interceptions per touchdown passes than Brett Favre?

[speakhandsforme]

Favre is 1.5 touchdowns per interceptions thrown
Elway is 1.3 touchdowns per interceptions thrown

how the hell can you say Elways had FAR more interceptions per touchdown passes than Brett Favre?

In raw percentages, that's quite a differential. It just looks small because you put it on such a small scale. Remove the decimal and it means that while Favre threw 150 touchdowns for each 100 interceptions, Elway only threw 130. And for every thirty touchdown passes thrown, that means that Elway threw three more interceptions. That's a significant difference when spread across a career. So, when speaking of the "greatest quarterbacks ever," that's FAR more.

[rcrook]

Where was "greatest quarterback ever" thrown around and where did I ever say Elway was better than Favre?

[speakhandsforme]

Where was "greatest quarterback ever" thrown around and where did I ever say Elway was better than Favre?
It is common sense that both are included in the greatest quarterbacks ever equation. So, in comparing two members of an elite class, otherwise moderate statistical differences are magnified.

...And I never once even implied that you thought Elway was better than Favre. I was just combatting numbers with numbers.

[rcrook]

I'll give you that I used a smaller scale when comparing tds to interceptions but my initial point was that people like trent green and daunte culpepper have better career qb ratings than elway and favre but that doesn't necessarily mean they're better. favre is a better qb than elway.

[+thecalisonme]

elway was better than favre

[hockey0001]

completion percentage is very comparable. what's killing the QB rating (also pretty close for a limited pool of games) is the 17 ints, but 8 of them came in manning's superbowl year so they obviously didnt matter, while 4 of them came in one game against the pats in the 2003 season, when they were the eventual superbowl champs and had one of the best secondaries this era has seen with rodney harrison, ty law, AND asante samuel, plus tedy bruschi adding picks and richard seymour and mike vrabel racking up sacks. that was a damn good year for new england defense -- something that contributed on several playoff occassions to keeping pressure off of brady in these playoff games. and brady's had a lot more playoff games to rack up the touchdowns.

You cant discount INT because of Manning winning the Superbowl that year, take 3 away from Brady as well from his superbowl years. You also cant discount them because of who they were against.



this is true, but here are my main points:

1) brady's always had a defense to keep the pressure off save his first superbowl year, manning never has save his 2005 year. this is especially important coming to playoff games, because this essentially means manning has to force more passes than brady against the league's best defenses, with more pressure to answer scores.
2) peyton's best year is overall better than tom's best year, and although peyton had a great offense around him brady's in 07 was still miles better

Miles better? Come on now, Id say its debateable which one is better, Id go with NE's but its close.


3) peyton has a much higher yards per attempt average, meaning hes a more efficient passer and completes more difficult throws

7.65 is much hugher than 7.24?

Thats due to playing in a different system and Brady not having the same offensive talent around him until last year.


4) peyton has the stronger arm by a mile[/quote]

No, he doesnt. They arm strength is pretty much equal.


A couple other things to add: You have to consider the fact that Manning has played in a dome his entire career, which definately helps make stats look better. Manning has also had the the same OC and played in essentially the same offensive system for his entire career. He's also has a pretty consistant set of WRs from year to year to help build a comfort level with them.

I know that qb rating is a horrible stat but, Brady's rating is better than Manning rating for games played outside and its also better for games played in domes. The reason that Manning overall rating is better is because he has played more dome games in his career.


Overall, I'd say Brady is better, but its not by much and itsmore due to personal preference than anything else. Manning finally got a defense to play with, and he wins a superbowl. Brady finally gets recievers to throw to and he puts up essentially identical stats to Manning. They are about as close as they can get.

[theguy77]

good points, i cant refute all of them but i'll assess the ones i can

You cant discount INT because of Manning winning the Superbowl that year, take 3 away from Brady as well from his superbowl years. You also cant discount them because of who they were against.

im not discounting any of them im just saying they had little to do with the overall quality of his playoff performance. he played well enough despite 8 ints to make the superbowl, and if 4 of them come in one game then those four obviously are not a good representation of how the rest of his games were, i mean its more of a fluke in that instance, a great defensive performance, an off-day, whatever you can attribute that to.

Miles better? Come on now, Id say its debateable which one is better, Id go with NE's but its close.

manning in '04 had: one of the top 3 WRs in the league, a fast (but young and inexperienced) TE, a good #2 WR but also young and inexperienced so not up to #1 standards yet, and competent slot receivers who could run a standard route and catch a good throw but could not compensate for poor ones and realy weren't anything special. he also had one of the better offensive lines in the league, but the only real all-pro one if i remember correctly was jeff saturday.

great setup no doubt, but plenty of quarterbacks have had setups like that -- to name a couple off the top of my head there's culpepper in '99, and warner in '99 and '01, and warner and brees are pretty close this year too, except their #1 wideouts arent up to marvin harrison's caliber.

brady in '07 had: one of the top 3 WRs in the league with more physical talent than marvin harrison (more speed -- runs a 4.2), had a #2 wideout who also runs a 4.2, had two slot receivers who run a 4.3, a tight end who runs a low 4.5 and is known for his physical talent as well. the speed of these 5 viable targets is so ridiculous there isnt a secondary in the NFL with enough finesse or depth to cover that (i think i said this exact thing to rcrook earlier in the thread, haha). hell, even the best shutdown corners cant even cover randy moss. i mean running a spread offense with two 4.2s, two 4.3s, and a 4.5, is kind of like in college where people like tim tebow have such good matchups in the spread against inexperienced defenses that someone's practiaclly always going to get open immediately. not only that but 3 of his offensive linemen made the pro bowl with two starting.

no quarterback has EVER had a setup that good.

No, he doesnt. They arm strength is pretty much equal.

scouting report for tom brady before he was barely drafted in the sixth round: "Poor build, very skinny and narrow, lacks mobility and the ability to avoid the rush, lacks a really strong arm."

peyton on the other hand, was a top prospect from the get-go, and a first overall draft choice, largely due to the strength (and accuracy, but brady has that) of his arm.

Manning has also had the the same OC and played in essentially the same offensive system for his entire career.

brady too -- josh mcdaniels

Overall, I'd say Brady is better, but its not by much and itsmore due to personal preference than anything else.

yeah, i have to say, i have a bias to peyton manning becuase im a jaguar fan, we play them twice every year, and some of the stuff hes done to make plays against us, i mean there are throws and reads he will make that are more impressive than anything ive ever seen brady do, and ive seen a lot of brady, last season they were on national tv like 13 weeks out of the regular season, and my roommate was a patriots fan.

Manning finally got a defense to play with, and he wins a superbowl.

actually the defense on his superbowl year wasnt all that great. the season before that one was relaly the only season the colts D was reputable.

[rcrook]

Are you really going to use a scouting report for Brady when he was drafted? It's called improvement and gaining strength. The QB that Brady was coming into the NFL is leaps and bounds different than the current one.

[theguy77]

i mean how much can a guy really improve his arm strength over 5 years? note that peyton's probably improved his too. brady has excellent touch but ive never really seen him bullet the ball.

[rcrook]

im going to go with improvement on the arm strength
http://bostonist.com/attachments/boston_caroline/010307-tom-brady.jpg

[rcrook]

manning does have an edge on arm strength but brady throws a tighter spiral and his touch passes are much better than peyton's. this discussion could go around in circles for days, it's ultimately your own personal opinion. i don't think either view is wrong. one is better at different things than the other and vice versa.

[Jason Tate]

I'll give you that I used a smaller scale when comparing tds to interceptions but my initial point was that people like trent green and daunte culpepper have better career qb ratings than elway and favre but that doesn't necessarily mean they're better. favre is a better qb than elway.
No he's not.

[rcrook]

Favre has a better completion percentage, more yards, more touchdowns, better qb rating, less interceptions per touchdowns thrown. Elway was the better runner I'll give him that and he was more clutch (Most comeback/game winning drives in history) but I'd still take Favre. This is non-biased in that I loathe Brett Favre.

[Jason Tate]

Favre has a better completion percentage, more yards, more touchdowns, better qb rating, less interceptions per touchdowns thrown. Elway was the better runner I'll give him that and he was more clutch (Most comeback/game winning drives in history) but I'd still take Favre. This is non-biased in that I loathe Brett Favre.
I don't think longevity records mean a whole lot when comparing QBs. Farve has almost double the yards and TDs as Joe Montana - and I don't think many would put up an argument that he's better than Joe.

I'll take a better arm, runner, and clutch performer over stats that don't take into account Elway was playing without practically anyone to throw to for years. Game on the line - give me Elway any day of the week.

[rcrook]

And by doubling the yards and touchdowns of Montana you mean Favre needing 15,000 more yards and 83 more touchdowns to double Montana's numbers.

[silentstar1134]

come on guys, if you're gonna side with manning please at least have a better reason than "i hate brady". hell im a jaguar fan and i have to deal with the colts outdoing our good seasons and making us take wild card spots when we go fucking 12-4, but i still go manning.

I choose manning.....or actually Joe Flacco In about 3 or 4 years lol. Manning is just a powerhouse quarterback. See you on sunday by the way p.s. Im a Ravens fan

[Jason Tate]

And by doubling the yards and touchdowns of Montana you mean Favre needing 15,000 more yards and 83 more touchdowns to double Montana's numbers.
Hence the word "almost."

200 and something to 400 and something - the point I was making remains regardless of my leeway with math.

[rcrook]

Elway's completion percentage and his QB rating are too low for me to think he is better than Favre. Favre's completion percentage is better by 4.8 percent and his QB rating is better by 5.8 percent His completion percentage is so mediocre that he has the same lifetime completion percentages of people like Stan Humphries, Steve Beuerlein and Kyle Boller. Quarterback rating, also very medicore similar to that of the likes of Jim Everett, Elvis Grbac and Chris Chandler. I will grant you that he is the most clutch quarterback ever but would he even had been in those situations to even have to make a comeback had he been more productive the first 3 quarters?

[Jason Tate]

Elway's completion percentage and his QB rating are too low for me to think he is better than Favre. Favre's completion percentage is better by 4.8 percent and his QB rating is better by 5.8 percent His completion percentage is so mediocre that he has the same lifetime completion percentages of people like Stan Humphries, Steve Beuerlein and Kyle Boller. Quarterback rating, also very medicore similar to that of the likes of Jim Everett, Elvis Grbac and Chris Chandler. I will grant you that he is the most clutch quarterback ever but would he even had been in those situations to even have to make a comeback had he been more productive the first 3 quarters?
He was throwing to nobodies for much of his early career - that was impacting his career numbers. It wasn't until around 93 that he started getting decent receivers and we saw better numbers (63.2 completion and 92.8 ratings); had he played with someone like Jerry Rice (or even a Freeman in Favre's case) for a number of years - I'm sure we would have seen ratings like his Super Bowl years (QB rating: 87.5, 93.0) more consistently.

This judgment can't come based purely on numbers - because the numbers only tell part of the story, and you can only be so good with those around you. You try and tie some numbers to mediocre players - but leave out the Super Bowl, MVPs, and Pro-Bowl numbers -- all missing from the other guys. There aren't many that would make a list without Elway in the top 5 or 6 - ever. The other guys you're drawing comparisons to wouldn't crack the top 10 - so it's pretty clear that looking just at stats doesn't give the full picture. Johnny Unitas, who held virtually every passing record when he retired and is still considered by many to be the greatest quarterback of all-time, ranks 52nd with a 78.2 rating.

Marino, Montana, Elway, Unitas, Young ... I'd put all of them above Favre.

Just my thoughts - I understand why you are ranking them how you are - I still stick by my choice though. And if I had to pick a QB to go lead my team, it would take a while for me to get to Favre.

[rcrook]

I see where you're coming from too. I'd pick a few people to lead my team before both Favre and Elway. Aren't you a Broncos fan? (not trying to call you biased)

[theguy77]

well a lot of quarterbacks can turn out good seasons with bad receivers and a bad offense. look at brady's early years, look at garrard last year (well he had a rushing game to open up passing lanes though, but only 3 INTs in 16 games). hell look at pennington this year, his rating is at a 96.4 and who the hell is he throwing to? anthony fasano? ted ginn? you can say elway was throwing to nobodies in the beginning of his career, but as bad as it sounds maybe he simply wasnt that good in the beginning of his career. he was good when it mattered, i mean obvioulsy anyone who can construct a 98-yard game winning drive in the playoffs deserves utmost respect, but no matter which way you look at it a QB rating in the low 70s or high 60s for a season is pretty fucking bad under ANY circumstances.

favre forces too many throws and makes dumb interceptions, but he also gets a lot of those impossible throws right in that tiny little football sized window with his ridiculous armstrength, and he posts up solid overall numbers year in and year out it seems. and you'll never see another quarterback with that much confidence in his arm.

EDIT: i just checked and favre actually has had his share of 5 seasons under a QB rating of 80, but hes had 12 good years to go along with that. really a lot of these QB comparisons could go either way with a good argument, all weve done so far in this thread is defend our preferences.

[speakhandsforme]

He was throwing to nobodies for much of his early career - that was impacting his career numbers. It wasn't until around 93 that he started getting decent receivers and we saw better numbers (63.2 completion and 92.8 ratings); had he played with someone like Jerry Rice (or even a Freeman in Favre's case) for a number of years - I'm sure we would have seen ratings like his Super Bowl years (QB rating: 87.5, 93.0) more consistently.

This judgment can't come based purely on numbers - because the numbers only tell part of the story, and you can only be so good with those around you. You try and tie some numbers to mediocre players - but leave out the Super Bowl, MVPs, and Pro-Bowl numbers -- all missing from the other guys. There aren't many that would make a list without Elway in the top 5 or 6 - ever. The other guys you're drawing comparisons to wouldn't crack the top 10 - so it's pretty clear that looking just at stats doesn't give the full picture. Johnny Unitas, who held virtually every passing record when he retired and is still considered by many to be the greatest quarterback of all-time, ranks 52nd with a 78.2 rating.

Marino, Montana, Elway, Unitas, Young ... I'd put all of them above Favre.

Just my thoughts - I understand why you are ranking them how you are - I still stick by my choice though. And if I had to pick a QB to go lead my team, it would take a while for me to get to Favre.

You're excusing Elway's inadequacies based on lack of receiving and then putting him over Favre? Upon the departure of Sterling Sharpe, Favre had terrible receiving corps. Ron Wolf, the Green Bay GM at the time, even admitted that his biggest mistake was having shit around Favre. Favre's 01-02 season is perhaps the most famous "good with bad WRs" season of all-time. Antonio Freeman was an average receiver who was made good by Brett: this was made apparent when he left after the 2001 season only to bomb in Philly, much like Bill Shroeder did in Detriot and Tampa. After Sterling, Favre never even had an elite receiver until the maturation (and prompt dismissal) of Javon Walker. In his last year, his receivers were of satisfaction, but from 96-02 and 05-07, they were pretty damn terrible: probably worse than those of Elway. If Elway had Freeman, his numbers would have remained pretty average.

Behind Otto Graham (and possibly Unitas), I rank Favre as the #2 passer of all-time. But, even more passionately, I don't see Elway as a top 5 quarterback: maybe a top ten. Along with his poor completion percentage, his interception rate was terrible: considerably worse than that of Brett Favre (who is seen as the king of the INT).

[+thecalisonme]

Elway's completion percentage and his QB rating are too low for me to think he is better than Favre. Favre's completion percentage is better by 4.8 percent and his QB rating is better by 5.8 percent His completion percentage is so mediocre that he has the same lifetime completion percentages of people like Stan Humphries, Steve Beuerlein and Kyle Boller. Quarterback rating, also very medicore similar to that of the likes of Jim Everett, Elvis Grbac and Chris Chandler. I will grant you that he is the most clutch quarterback ever but would he even had been in those situations to even have to make a comeback had he been more productive the first 3 quarters?
i mean completely different eras, the best qb of all time marino only has a career 86 qb rating

[speakhandsforme]

The case for the greatest QB of all-time is impossible to secure, given such variences as era and supporting cast. However, I think Otto Graham is the best choice since he compiled a 86.6 passer rating in a 1945-1955 era and was a five-time MVP. I think it's damn near impossible to make the cases for either Marino or Elway.

[Jason Tate]

The case for the greatest QB of all-time is impossible to secure, given such variences as era and supporting cast. However, I think Otto Graham is the best choice since he compiled a 86.6 passer rating in a 1945-1955 era and was a five-time MVP. I think it's damn near impossible to make the cases for either Marino or Elway.
You are the only person I have ever seen make such a statement about Elway or Marino.

[Jason Tate]

You're excusing Elway's inadequacies based on lack of receiving and then putting him over Favre? Upon the departure of Sterling Sharpe, Favre had terrible receiving corps. Ron Wolf, the Green Bay GM at the time, even admitted that his biggest mistake was having shit around Favre. Favre's 01-02 season is perhaps the most famous "good with bad WRs" season of all-time. Antonio Freeman was an average receiver who was made good by Brett: this was made apparent when he left after the 2001 season only to bomb in Philly, much like Bill Shroeder did in Detriot and Tampa. After Sterling, Favre never even had an elite receiver until the maturation (and prompt dismissal) of Javon Walker. In his last year, his receivers were of satisfaction, but from 96-02 and 05-07, they were pretty damn terrible: probably worse than those of Elway. If Elway had Freeman, his numbers would have remained pretty average.

Behind Otto Graham (and possibly Unitas), I rank Favre as the #2 passer of all-time. But, even more passionately, I don't see Elway as a top 5 quarterback: maybe a top ten. Along with his poor completion percentage, his interception rate was terrible: considerably worse than that of Brett Favre (who is seen as the king of the INT).
Well, you're definitely an anomaly amongst most football fans and critics. I'm not going to try and change your mind. I was never excusing "inadequacies."

[speakhandsforme]

Well, you're definitely an anomaly amongst most football fans and critics. I'm not going to try and change your mind. I was never excusing "inadequacies."

Not so much an anomaly, but instead a vocalist of a minority: there are a lot of people that think Elway is overrated. Marino is undoubtedly a top five passer but, to make a spot for Elway, you have to propose a lot of subjectivity and grey argument.

It's hard to make an argument for Elway or Marino because both have been outclassed at their respective legacies: wins (Elway) and accumulated statistics (Marino).

[theguy77]

well elway's still been to five superbowls and still holds the record for most game-winning drives so thats what cements him as a legend. he was a big time winner and a shitty quarterback rating and completion percentage cant take that away from him. as for marino, every quarterback who has a career great enough to hold multiple accumulated records at the time of their retirement is going to be remembered. from unitas to marino to favre it never really matters how good of a quarterback you were, although you HAVE to be a really good quarterback to attain such records, it's impossible if you perform poorly, but you're not remembered directly by talent you're remembered as the guy who did the most.

[BrokenMirror]

I may be massively biased on the subject, but I'd take Manning. With Manning you don't just get a great quarterback with a great arm. You get a leader, a field general, and one of the most hard working and dedicated players in the game. Brady is certainly a leader, and you can't argue with three rings, but people always talk about Brady winning without a good team around him, which is bullshit because for all those years he had one of the best defences in the league, giving him short fields and such. Yes, Manning has had excellent receivers throughout his career while Brady only really got great receivers last year, but maybe Harrison, Wayne, Stokley, Clark, Gonzalez, Pollard and all the others wouldn't have such successful careers had they not have Manning throwing those perfectly precise balls to them. Besides, does that fact that Joe Montana had Jerry Rice for most of his career diminish his accomplishments?

Also, Manning may be a little smug at times, but at least he's a decent stand-up guy with a great sense of humour, while Brady is just a preening super-model dating GQ magazine appearing self satisfied ultra-competitive egotistical jackass.

The Super Bowl rings are on Brady's side, but the stats are on Manning's side. Bear in mind that even though Brady threw one more TD pass last year than Manning during his record breaking year, Manning did it without appearing in the last game of the season, did it with a better completion percentage, fewer interceptions and a better QB rating, which I'm fairly certain is an NFL record.

Before Manning got his ring, I may have conceded that due to his immaculate playoff history, Brady would be the man to choose, but ever since, Manning is, at least in my mind, and I bleed Colt blue blood, the one to pick.

EDIT: I've just noticed that just by looking around my room, I can see four Peyton Manning's (one poster, one print, one figurine and one signed photo) and can just see his #18 jersey poking out of my closet. As I said, biased.

[rcrook]

Tom Brady egotistical jackass? I think we would all agree that Tom Brady is far from that. Can you fault a guy for dating one of the hottest women in the world or getting paid millions of dollars to be on the cover of GQ? Brady is just as much a stand up guy as Peyton is.

[rcrook]

I may be massively biased on the subject, but I'd take Manning. With Manning you don't just get a great quarterback with a great arm. You get a leader, a field general, and one of the most hard working and dedicated players in the game. Brady is certainly a leader, and you can't argue with three rings, but people always talk about Brady winning without a good team around him, which is bullshit because for all those years he had one of the best defences in the league, giving him short fields and such. Yes, Manning has had excellent receivers throughout his career while Brady only really got great receivers last year, but maybe Harrison, Wayne, Stokley, Clark, Gonzalez, Pollard and all the others wouldn't have such successful careers had they not have Manning throwing those perfectly precise balls to them. Besides, does that fact that Joe Montana had Jerry Rice for most of his career diminish his accomplishments?

Also, Manning may be a little smug at times, but at least he's a decent stand-up guy with a great sense of humour, while Brady is just a preening super-model dating GQ magazine appearing self satisfied ultra-competitive egotistical jackass.

The Super Bowl rings are on Brady's side, but the stats are on Manning's side. Bear in mind that even though Brady threw one more TD pass last year than Manning during his record breaking year, Manning did it without appearing in the last game of the season, did it with a better completion percentage, fewer interceptions and a better QB rating, which I'm fairly certain is an NFL record.

Before Manning got his ring, I may have conceded that due to his immaculate playoff history, Brady would be the man to choose, but ever since, Manning is, at least in my mind, and I bleed Colt blue blood, the one to pick.

EDIT: I've just noticed that just by looking around my room, I can see four Peyton Manning's (one poster, one print, one figurine and one signed photo) and can just see his #18 jersey poking out of my closet. As I said, biased.

Manning did appear in the last game of the season when he had his record year, sure it was for one drive but he still appeared, so you're wrong on that. Manning threw 10 ints his record year while Brady only threw 8 ints his record year, so you're also wrong on that. Manning had a completion percentage of 67.6% his record year while Brady had a completion percentage of 68.9%, so you're wrong on that one too. Manning did have a better qb rating than Brady did during their record years, so you're right on one thing. So you basically made 4 claims that are easily backed up by stats and only 1 of them was correct. 25% is good right? Stick to watching soccer you fucking bloak.

[RunInTheFront]

Tom Brady egotistical jackass? I think we would all agree that Tom Brady is far from that. Can you fault a guy for dating one of the hottest women in the world or getting paid millions of dollars to be on the cover of GQ? Brady is just as much a stand up guy as Peyton is.

Actually yes. Who is Peyton dating? Is Peyton on the cover of GQ? Even as a Bill's fan, I think Peyton is the better QB. Example: look at the pats this year; they may not be undefeated like last year, but they lost their star player (Brady) and are still doing pretty good. That is an attribute to the coaching staff and Bill Belicheat. If the Colt's lost Peyton, no amount of coaching could fix their problems. Peyton is not dating a super model, yet he continues to lead the colts to the playoffs.

[rcrook]

You people are ridiculous. Tom Brady can't date a super-model because Peyton Manning isn't? How are you going to call Brady out for being on the cover of GQ when last year Peyton Manning was in over 20 commercials? Stop being a hypocrite.

[derian2219]

Manning IMO is better than Brady based on the team that surrounds them. Brady was surrounded by all-stars or all-star caliber players. A great O-line, Solid running backs and great WR's. Manning has a horrible O-line, ok RB's and very good WR's.

Personally the key part is that Matt Cassell gets plugged in and they are on the verge of a 11-5 season. With a rookie QB for the most part. I think that hurts Bradys worth quite a bit.

If Manning went down in the first game of the season, I would doubt the Colts would win more than 3-4 games.

[btbam > you]

brady too -- josh mcdaniels





False. Ever heard of Charlie Weis?

[crit]

Manning IMO is better than Brady based on the team that surrounds them. Brady was surrounded by all-stars or all-star caliber players. A great O-line, Solid running backs and great WR's. Manning has a horrible O-line, ok RB's and very good WR's.

Personally the key part is that Matt Cassell gets plugged in and they are on the verge of a 11-5 season. With a rookie QB for the most part. I think that hurts Bradys worth quite a bit.

If Manning went down in the first game of the season, I would doubt the Colts would win more than 3-4 games.
Brady didn't always have Moss and Welker. He won the Super Bowl throwing to the likes of the likes of David Givens, Troy Brown, Deion Branch, Daniel Graham, etc. with Antowain Smith and Corey Dillon in the backfield. Sure, Branch was a high caliber WR and had two great SB games, but until Moss and Welker arrived last year Peyton's cast was always far and away better.

Cassel's success hurts Brady's worth? Seriously, how? I think that only speaks once again about the depth and development of the Patriots. There is a ton of talent surrounding him; he stepped in and struggled at first, but since then has adapted and been successful. To me, that says that he is a talented QB who has put in his work behind Brady and was ready to go when his number was called.

[derian2219]

Brady didn't always have Moss and Welker. He won the Super Bowl throwing to the likes of the likes of David Givens, Troy Brown, Deion Branch, Daniel Graham, etc. with Antowain Smith and Corey Dillon in the backfield. Sure, Branch was a high caliber WR and had two great SB games, but until Moss and Welker arrived last year Peyton's cast was always far and away better.

Cassel's success hurts Brady's worth? Seriously, how? I think that only speaks once again about the depth and development of the Patriots. There is a ton of talent surrounding him; he stepped in and struggled at first, but since then has adapted and been successful. To me, that says that he is a talented QB who has put in his work behind Brady and was ready to go when his number was called.

Cassel was awful when he first started playing. Like you said, Brady has a ton of talent surrounded by him so this should translate into better numbers. But this is like arguing who is the better RB, Barry Sanders, Jim Brown, or Walter Payton. There really isn't a wrong answer.

[rcrook]

No shit he was awful he hadn't started a game since High School. You have to give the guy some turn around time.

[crit]

Cassel was awful when he first started playing. Like you said, Brady has a ton of talent surrounded by him so this should translate into better numbers. But this is like arguing who is the better RB, Barry Sanders, Jim Brown, or Walter Payton. There really isn't a wrong answer.
I agree that there is no wrong answer, they are the two top QB's in the league, but I just don't think it's right to say Brady has always been surrounded by all-star talent when that was not the case. He did more with less for many years, and then when he got big weapons he went out and had one of the most profilic seasons of all time. I'll always lean toward Brady as a Pats fan, but I would never tell someone they were wrong for choosing Peyton. Yes, Cassel struggled and many, myself included, thought it was a lost season at first. He got a few starts under his belt, got acclimated to the game and is now on the verge of leading the team to the playoffs. I just don't see in any way how that hurts Brady's worth.

[airik625]

drew brees

[rcrook]

I don't really know how you can say that Brady was surrounded by sold running backs and Peyton was surrounded by ok running backs. I think they had the same caliber running backs around them and Brady never had a prolific runner like Peyton did in Edgerrin James.

[derian2219]

The only thing that makes me wonder though is the whole spygate situation and what really happened and that maybe Brady and Cassel are just a good Qb under Belichicks system. We'll never know hah.

[rcrook]

X-) had bill belicheck never cheated tom brady's career would be shit....riiiiiiiiight.

[derian2219]

We will never know. For all we know the Colts could be doing the same thing, but not getting caught.

[crit]

Spygate was week 2 last year, and I think we all remember what kind of year Brady had anyway...

[rcrook]

We will never know. For all we know the Colts could be doing the same thing, but not getting caught.

http://i33.tinypic.com/oic7m1.jpg

[derian2219]

Valid point.

[BrokenMirror]

Manning did appear in the last game of the season when he had his record year, sure it was for one drive but he still appeared, so you're wrong on that. Manning threw 10 ints his record year while Brady only threw 8 ints his record year, so you're also wrong on that. Manning had a completion percentage of 67.6% his record year while Brady had a completion percentage of 68.9%, so you're wrong on that one too. Manning did have a better qb rating than Brady did during their record years, so you're right on one thing. So you basically made 4 claims that are easily backed up by stats and only 1 of them was correct. 25% is good right? Stick to watching soccer you fucking bloak.

The statistical comparisons were only a small part of my overall argument, but you're obviously such a narrow minded cockbag that you couldn't see the big picture. You go ahead and assault me with your own statistics, acquired from some online source, which I didn't happen to check. And then you have the nerve, the gall, to suggest that, because I didn't double and triple check my statistical sources, I am less of a football fan than you, and that I'm an ignorant English person with no understanding of your national sport. Those are the actions of someone with absolutely no decency or tact.

And so now I'm going to forget my own manners and respond in a way your miniscule brain can understand. FUCK YOU. So I got a couple of statistics wrong. Big fucking deal. I'm not afraid of being wrong, that's why I didn't check the stats, because I thought I was right. But I was wrong. And guess what, you're the only person in the world who fucking cares. So why don't you just fuck off, take your petty, insignificant arguments and your pretentions to being some guru of NFL statistics just because you have stats sheets bookmarked to your internet browser, and go troll somewhere where people like me, who actually want to try and have a decent conversation about football without degenerating into personal abuse, won't be bothered by your dickheadedness. Merry fucking Christmas, shithead.

And I still think Manning is a better quarterback. And according to the poll, the people of AP.net agree with me.

[rcrook]

You made claims that were false! They could have been easily checked on an online source (you've heard of google right?). You can't come in here and make claims that can easily be refuted via statistics. Football and most other sports are based on statistical evidence, it's simple. Am I supposed to let your post with false information and false claims go unnoticed? No. So Merry Fucking Christmas to you, now go beat off to your Steven Gerrard poster and enjoy your shitty rainy weather.

[theguy77]

Brady didn't always have Moss and Welker. He won the Super Bowl throwing to the likes of the likes of David Givens, Troy Brown, Deion Branch, Daniel Graham, etc. with Antowain Smith and Corey Dillon in the backfield. Sure, Branch was a high caliber WR and had two great SB games, but until Moss and Welker arrived last year Peyton's cast was always far and away better.

i mean, troy brown was pretty good, and corey dillon was one of the best backs in the league at the time, even before he got put on the patriots, but if you dig back before that year brady's cast wasnt anything to write home about, sure.

ive noticed the whole "supporting cast" issue is being beaten to death right now -- brady only had a better cast than manning in '07, let's get that straight. maybe brady's was about as good as manning's in the year the pats had dillon.

[theguy77]

at first i was surprised at manning winning but then i realized, there is a lot of bias on his end (or against brady) and there are some people posting pretty ignorant things to defend their case, haha.

[rcrook]

Brady is ignorant because he dates a super-model and is on the cover of GQ. Fuck Da Haterz Petyon Roooolz.

[theguy77]

hahahaha i know right wtf, brady's worse because his fame automatically means hes egotistical. 1) wow way to make a fucking baseless stereotype, that's like the people calling obama an elitist 2) what the hell does his ego have to do with his quarterbacking

[rcrook]

my biggest issue with the gq statement is that peyton does like 20 commercials a year but once brady does one magazine cover he is automatically an egotistical prick.

[duhpunk]

Drew Brees.

[theguy77]

False. Ever heard of Charlie Weis?

oh, my bad, i just read that josh mcdaniels was currently the offensive coordinator, and that he had been with the pats since 2001, i didnt get the detail that he was a personnel assistant and quarterback coach until 2006.

[gnarly sky]

http://www.detroitlions.com/photos/Orlovsky_Body_080613_2.jpg
The man, the legend, Dan Orlovsky.

It only takes the best QB to run outside his own endzone for a safety.

[tcg47]

http://www.detroitlions.com/photos/Orlovsky_Body_080613_2.jpg
The man, the legend, Dan Orlovsky.

It only takes the best QB to run outside his own endzone for a safety.

i c what u did ther

[secthagoals626]

http://www.theoldcomputer.com/Libarary's/Pictures/NESGameCovers/John%20Elway's%20Quarterback.jpg

The Man, The Legend

[acfrue]

http://www.detroitlions.com/photos/Orlovsky_Body_080613_2.jpg
The man, the legend, Dan Orlovsky.

It only takes the best QB to run outside his own endzone for a safety.

Needz mor Jo3y!!!

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f338/jivenstiven/268576.jpg

[Crimson Reaper]

as a Brit watching in, Brady. That guy could probably turn any offence into winners, he's just got that aura, that one gamebreaking ball when it's needed most

[bsquad08]

I'm sorry, brady is so fucking over-rated. Go ahead, throw your numerous superbowl rings and MVPs at me. I think we proved this year, when a guy who hadn't played since HIGH SCHOOL took the team to what? 11-5? and threw for 400+ yards in consecutive (brady didn't do that), that he simply has the ebst supporting cast. Lets face it brady has THE best offenseive line for the past 4-5 years as well as having a fantastic head coach. I hate billicheck but the guy clearly has more to do with them winning than brady does. Manning gets shit done.

[rcrook]

holler at me with the receivers brady won super bowls with...yeah very mediocre. you ever think matt cassell is a good qb too? he backed up two heisman trophy winners, doesn't mean he was bad.

[FondestMemory]

manning has had a better supporting cast around him than brady has had through their entire career.

when you win three superbowls in your first five years as a starter, you're not even remotely overrated. you're just fucking good.

[Scott Weber]

this thread is the worst.

[preppyak]

I hate billicheck but the guy clearly has more to do with them winning than brady does.
I want to know how you can say that...you take Tom Brady away from that team and its 5 wins (technically 7) worse than the year before, despite no major changes to the offense.

Take one guy away from the offense and it passes for 1000 fewer yards...half the TD's...and twice the sacks. And you could argue that the Pats line wasn't as good this year, but, you didn't argue that, you argued it was the essentialy the best this decade. So, I'd like to see a definitive reason why the offensive output was about 65% what it was last year, if its NOT Brady being hurt.

I just find the argument that one or the other is significantly better stupid...or even placing them in 1A and 1B, because its all how you value the position, whether its stats or rings.

[rcrook]

i don't understand why most of the n00bs in here love to slob all over peyton's nob.

[+thecalisonme]

manning has had a better supporting cast around him than brady has had through their entire career.

when you win three superbowls in your first five years as a starter, you're not even remotely overrated. you're just fucking good.
i mean the supporting casts were about even i mean manning didnt have a defense so they were looking for pass more often with manning with brady they couldnt pin their ears back most of the game

[Chris M.]

i don't understand why most of the n00bs in here love to slob all over peyton's nob.

Because there are so many blind Patriot haters out there that could never admit that Brady is a good QB.

And to bring up the point about how Cassel threw for 400+ in two straight...yeah, Brady's never done that, but neither has Peyton, or anyone else that's ever played in the league aside from Fouts, Marino, Simms and Billy Volek.

[bsquad08]

I want to know how you can say that...you take Tom Brady away from that team and its 5 wins (technically 7) worse than the year before, despite no major changes to the offense.

Take one guy away from the offense and it passes for 1000 fewer yards...half the TD's...and twice the sacks. And you could argue that the Pats line wasn't as good this year, but, you didn't argue that, you argued it was the essentialy the best this decade. So, I'd like to see a definitive reason why the offensive output was about 65% what it was last year, if its NOT Brady being hurt.

I just find the argument that one or the other is significantly better stupid...or even placing them in 1A and 1B, because its all how you value the position, whether its stats or rings.

i'm glad you did your homework. Respect +. And brady wasn't michael vick, he wasn't out there being extremely mobile or anything. My argument was basically that the coach>the player. Billicheck's offense still hasn't been solved. The guy put in a guy with high school experience, and who cares if he played behind heisman trophy winners, tell that to the guy who played behind tim couch in cleveland. The heisman trophy doesn't mean anything in the NFL. Nice award? yes, but college football isn't professional football. Sorry. Yeah, your right, brady is in there, the offense probably doesn't get as big of a reduction, but give any good nfl coach 8 months to study game tape of the patriots and they aren't going to do as well. Just look at the ex-Greatest Show On Turf. Plus, your saying because the team didn't go undefeated and didn't continue to be one of the most dominant teams in the past 10 years, that it was all because of a QB. You don't think its possible that defenses adjusted? That they just couldn't pull off 16-0 again? Look at the super bowl dude, the giants beat them with brady, i garuntee just about every team watched that game 100 times and followed the same game plan. You can't say that the stats reduction is 100% because brady was out. Thats ridiculous, and its not how football works.

Oh, and the colts passed for about 15 more YPG this year than the pats did last year. Brady didn't do it by himself. He had 100+ rushing yards per game. Peyton had 64 this year. So don't tell me that Peyton had a better supporting cast.

[FondestMemory]

way to miss the point about sitting behind heisman trophy winners. what he was saying had absolutely nothing to do with the heisman to pro success rate.

and tim couch never won a heisman.

[bsquad08]

way to miss the point about sitting behind heisman trophy winners. what he was saying had absolutely nothing to do with the heisman to pro success rate.

and tim couch never won a heisman.

my b, and no i didn't miss the point. his point is that he might be a good player in his own right. Fine, but even top prospects don't go out and win 11 games. especially when they didn't play in college. I don't care how good you are, you have to be on a damn good team to win 11 games when your QB hasn't played since high school. HIGH SCHOOL. The guy who watches him play on sunday hasn't played football since high school. So i find the point that "hes just a good player" doesn't defeat the fact that hes on a good team.

[FondestMemory]

hasn't started a football game since high school is a lot different than not playing football since high school

he spent years under one of the best college coaches in the game, and has now spent multiple years under the best coach at the professional ranks and in the same system.

just because he hadn't started a game since high school didn't mean he was away from the game. he was still learning and becoming better.

matt ryan was a top pro prospect, and he went out and won 11 games. same with joe flacco. ben won 15 games as a rookie.

i'm failing to see your point. even if you're 'just a good player' you have to be on a good team to have success. peyton's been on damn good teams since dungy took over that team.

[bsquad08]

peyton has made those teams. He's never really had a running game, especially not this year. all those guys won games with game experience. I said my point about 5 times, but i guess i ramble too much, so i'll keep it short. Tom Brady/Matt Cassel are on better teams overall than peyton manning.
Don't say peyton was on better teams, its just not true.

[rcrook]

ay bay bay please suck my dick because with peyton as quarterback addai has run for over 1,000 yards twice, edge james 5 times and rhodes once....so don't you dare say peyton has no running game

[FondestMemory]

not to mention manning's had harrison and wayne. and clark. and stokely.

brady had mediocre guys that he made look amazing up until moss and welker came to town.

[theguy77]

manning has had a better supporting cast around him than brady has had through their entire career.

when you win three superbowls in your first five years as a starter, you're not even remotely overrated. you're just fucking good.

and when you compare mannings CAREER numbers to brady's CAREER numbers, it reflects that, so its not like brady was doing what manning was doing with worse teams. argument was when the teams were at their best -- colts in '04, brady in '07 -- brady's was much better and he only slightly topped mannings numeric records while having a slihgtly lower QB efficiency rating.

no way that brady's overrated though, you have to be ignorant and biased to say that.

I want to know how you can say that...you take Tom Brady away from that team and its 5 wins (technically 7) worse than the year before, despite no major changes to the offense.

Take one guy away from the offense and it passes for 1000 fewer yards...half the TD's...and twice the sacks. And you could argue that the Pats line wasn't as good this year, but, you didn't argue that, you argued it was the essentialy the best this decade. So, I'd like to see a definitive reason why the offensive output was about 65% what it was last year, if its NOT Brady being hurt.

I just find the argument that one or the other is significantly better stupid...or even placing them in 1A and 1B, because its all how you value the position, whether its stats or rings.

well lets be reasonable here you put a new QB in the system and it completely throws off the fluency of your offense. different communication between QB and receiver across the board, it leads to lost timing on routes, a difference of opinion as to how the ball should be thrown against the defender, and overall that will lead to more incomplete passes and interceptions because the receiver isnt doing what the QB accounts for him doing and vice versa. also cassell's amazingly good but maybe due to a lack of communication with the receivers there are no automatic options for him when the blitz comes and ultimately the clock in his head ticks a little bit longer, leading to more sacks. hes also probably not sliding the protection or changing plays at the line nearly to the extent that brady is, tailoring plays was a huge part of brady's offensive scheme, but again thats not a matter of talent thats mostly communication with your team. i mean new guy = different numbers no matter how comparable they are talent wise. besides i think taking manning away from the colts would do farrr more damage, cassell filled in incredibly well.

haha, the 1A and 1B thing is a good idea.

[theguy77]

not to mention manning's had harrison and wayne. and clark. and stokely.

brady had mediocre guys that he made look amazing up until moss and welker came to town.

been through this already. stokely isnt that good, hes what you'd expect out of a slot receiver, nothing more, nothing less. wayne was in his second year? when manning had his record breaking season, he showed potential but wasnt well developed yet, and MAYBE he was an upper tier second receiver at the time but its not like manning had two number 1s. clark was also very young, that might even have been his rookie season, although he was quite fast for his position and presented plenty of matchup problems. now i'll give you that harrison was quite possibly the best receiver in the league at the time, but thats it. as ive been saying, manning's 2004 setup was pretty damn good but not anything that other quarterbacks didnt have before, and manning produced much better numbers than any of those other quarterbacks.

[Vincewithouthee]

I don't understand these results at all. A year ago this time the majority would say Brady. But because of Brady's injury that puts his QB level below him? Sure he may never be the same (I think he'll be fine) but Brady's career overall is better. He's also more talented in my opinion.

You can argue both ways that they both have had it easier than the other. Such as Brady having a solid defense his whole career, or Manning having players like Marv/Wayne/Edge, but those are just lame excuses really. You really can't go wrong with either QB but I've always said that Brady's gonna end up being the greatest QB in our lifetime and I'm gonna stick with it despite his injury.

[theguy77]

yeah i mean you really can argue it either way on all aspects and this thread proves it, but when i watch manning play and i watch brady play, i just see more talent oozing out of manning. to me brady's just a far better success story and thats aids him a tad in this discussion, because when manning came in everyone had really high expectations already becuase of his dad and becuase he was the top prospect and the first overall draft pick.

[theguy77]

i still agree with my opinion in this thread

[rcrook]

way to bump a thread that hasn't been active for 8 months just so you can say you still agree on your first opinion.

[joeag1985]

Brady. Three Rings. End of story.

[theguy77]

way to bump a thread that hasn't been active for 8 months just so you can say you still agree on your first opinion.

haha, mostly inspired by me marveling at what he did with his limited time on the field monday. who the fuck else can throw a perfect 20 yard sideline touch pass, against tough zone coverage that KNOWS you need to complete a 20 yard pass AND get out of bounds and expects it, with 8 seconds left in the half to get into field goal range, and then orchestrates a game winning 82 yard touchdown drive in 32 seconds? no one has ever comprehended the defense and the passing game as well as peyton manning. he's like his own offensive coordinator with the arm to accomplish everything that needs to be accomplished in theory.

[joeag1985]

RbjWoiqyCZs

Class.

[theguy77]

RbjWoiqyCZs

Class.

yeah peyton did that like 6 or 7 times last year

[joeag1985]

yeah peyton did that like 6 or 7 times last year

Tom has three rings.

[theguy77]

Tom has three rings.

takes a team to get 3 rings, not just a quarterback. brady has a top 10 defense every year.

and hell, ben roethlisberger has 2. that makes him a better quarterback than peyton manning, right?

[rcrook]

Brady also has never had the offensive weapons that Peyton has always had except for the 18-0 season.

[Zeran]

i'm partial to brady, but they're obviously both great quarterbacks.

[Mibabalou]

mike vick

[theguy77]

Brady also has never had the offensive weapons that Peyton has always had except for the 18-0 season.

hes had a great o-line. an NFL quarterback with time should be able to make good decisions no matter what his receivers, especially if they want to be regarded among the ranks of top QBs.

and again to repeat the point brady's had no less of a receiving core than ben roethlisberger, who has two rings. i doubt anyone who's not a steelers fan will make the argument that roethlisberger is better than manning because he has more rings. ask anyone why the steelers won both of those superbowls -- guarantee you people who understand football won't say it was their offense. it was the thing that peyton manning only had ONE year out of his 11 year career.

[joeag1985]

takes a team to get 3 rings, not just a quarterback. brady has a top 10 defense every year.

and hell, ben roethlisberger has 2. that makes him a better quarterback than peyton manning, right?

No. It just makes Brady a better quarterback than Manning. He gets it done when it matters. Three rings can testify to that. He couldn't get it done without having a great team of course, but Manning hasn't exactly had a bad team himself over the last decade.

[theguy77]

No. It just makes Brady a better quarterback than Manning. He gets it done when it matters. Three rings can testify to that. He couldn't get it done without having a great team of course, but Manning hasn't exactly had a bad team himself over the last decade.

you completely missed my point and how it pointed out a gaping hole in your logic.

find me the last team besides the colts who won a superbowl with a defense ranked lower than 15th in the NFL. that's an important thing that's been virtually absent from peyton's team over his entire career.

[joeag1985]

you completely missed my point and how it pointed out a gaping hole in your logic.

find me the last team besides the colts who won a superbowl with a defense ranked lower than 15th in the NFL. that's an important thing that's been virtually absent from peyton's team over his entire career.

I know it's a fair point, but Bradys achievements shouldn't be overlooked just because he had a top defence. I think people read far too much into statistics anyway.

Bottom line, Peyton and Tom have had near enough to an equal amount of clutch moments throughout their career, when their play was needed to get over a line... and the best player is the one that makes those plays at the end of the day. You may see Peyton as a far better player, but I believe the most successful (winning championships) players are the best basically. That's just my opinion anyway.

[theguy77]

I know it's a fair point, but Bradys achievements shouldn't be overlooked just because he had a top defence. I think people read far too much into statistics anyway.

Bottom line, Peyton and Tom have had near enough to an equal amount of clutch moments throughout their career, when their play was needed to get over a line... and the best player is the one that makes those plays at the end of the day. You may see Peyton as a far better player, but I believe the most successful (winning championships) players are the best basically. That's just my opinion anyway.

thats a valid opinion to have.

i just think you might be under-rating how important a defense is to a team's success, especially in the post-season. without a good defense peyton is under a lot more pressure to score every time he comes on the field, because the other offense cant be stopped from scoring. when under pressure to score, it suddenly becomes crucial to pass successfully and frequently, which means they cant run the ball in order to open up the passing game or wear down the defense, and it also means that it becomes a necessity to complete substantial throws even when nobody is open downfield. the offense is much harder to operate under these conditions. so it's really impressive to me that peyton can continue to pick apart defenses even under that kind of dire necessity for consistent passing drives.

[batmannj]

Tom Brady. I wouldn't complain with either player, but Brady is the one I would rather have. So far this year he has looked shaky after the injury to his knee, but when looking at the body of work plus the intangibles, I don't think that there are any better. Each QB has had plenty of weapons, each have had good defenses in their title years.

[joeag1985]

thats a valid opinion to have.

i just think you might be under-rating how important a defense is to a team's success, especially in the post-season. without a good defense peyton is under a lot more pressure to score every time he comes on the field, because the other offense cant be stopped from scoring. when under pressure to score, it suddenly becomes crucial to pass successfully and frequently, which means they cant run the ball in order to open up the passing game or wear down the defense, and it also means that it becomes a necessity to complete substantial throws even when nobody is open downfield. the offense is much harder to operate under these conditions. so it's really impressive to me that peyton can continue to pick apart defenses even under that kind of dire necessity for consistent passing drives.

A more than valid point. In any case, I think we're both in agreement that they're great players. The best of their generation easily. I always wondered how they'd do if they changed teams. Different systems though I guess... tough to say.

[tommyishere]

i think there the two best quarterbacks in the league. Being from Indiana i personally hate the Colts and Peyton Manning, but fans say if they could have one person to replace Manning it would be Brady.

I picked Brady though, i think he's just a badass in general and people hate him cause he's so good, i think he's proven more over his career so far as well

[poppa Q]

i think there the two best quarterbacks in the league. Being from Indiana i personally hate the Colts and Peyton Manning, but fans say if they could have one person to replace Manning it would be Brady.

I picked Brady though, i think he's just a badass in general and people hate him cause he's so good, i think he's proven more over his career so far as well
I don't get it.

[tommyishere]

I don't get it.

neither do i, i actually live closer to chicago than Indianapolis and i hate the bears as well