NFL Awards

[xbrokendownx]

i know theres still a week left but i figured i might as well start this up

MVP
1. Chad Pennington
2. Adrian Peterson
3. Deangelo Williams

Offensive POY
1. Adrian Peterson
2. Deangelo Williams
3. Andre Johnson

Defensive POY
1. Demarcus Ware
2. Joey Porter
3. James Harrison

Offensive ROY
1. Matt Ryan
2. Chris Johnson
3. Joe Flacco

Defensive ROY
1. Jerrod Mayo
2. Chris Horton
3. Curtis Lofton

Coach of the Year
1. Tony Sparano
2. Mike Smith
3. John Harbaugh

[LeftWideOpen]

MVP
1. Adrian Peterson
2. Deangelo Williams
3. Andre Johnson

OPOY
1. Andre Johnson
2. Drew Brees
3. Kurt Warner

DPOY
1. DeMarcus Ware
2. Jerome Harrison
3. Michael Griffin

OROY
1. Matt Ryan
2. Chris Johnson
3. Steve Slaton

DROY
1. Jerod Mayo
2. Chris Horton
3. Curtis Lofton

Coach of the Year
1. Mike Smith
2. Jeff Fisher
3. Tony Sparano

[MyWorldEntire]

MVP
1. Peyton Manning
2. Adrian Peterson
3. Michael Turner

OPOY
1. Phillip Rivers
2. Michael Turner
3. Drew Brees

DPOY
1. Demarcus Ware
2. James Harrison
3. Johnny Abraham


OROY
1. Matt Ryan
2. Matt Forte
3. Steve Slaton

COTY
1. Mike Smith
2. Tony Sporano
3. John Fox

[SwiftSilentDead]

MVP
1. Peyton Manning
2. Adrian Peterson
3. DeAngelo Williams

Offensive POY
1. Drew Brees
2. Andre Johnson
3. Kurt Warner (even though he's been terrible the past couple of weeks)

Defensive POY
1. Demarcus Ware
2. James Harrison
3. Ed Reed

Offensive ROY
1. Matt Ryan
2. Joe Flacco
3. Steve Slaton



Coach of the Year
1. Mike Smith
2. Bill Bellichek (sp?)
3. Tony Sparano

[rcrook]

MVP
1. Peyton Manning
2. Adrian Peterson
3. Andre Johnson

Offensive POY
1. Adrian Peterson
2. Drew Brees
3. Andre Johnson

Defensive POY
1. Demarcus Ware
2. Joey Porter
3. James Harrison

Offensive ROY
1. Matt Ryan
2. Chris Johnson
3. Steve Slaton

Defensive ROY
1. Jerrod Mayo
2. Chris Horton
3. Curtis Lofton

Coach of the Year
1. Mike Smith
2. Tony Sparano
3. Jeff Fisher

[rcrook]

MVP
1. Peyton Manning
2. Adrian Peterson
3. Michael Turner

OPOY
1. Phillip Rivers
2. Michael Turner
3. Drew Brees

DPOY
1. Demarcus Ware
2. Johnny Abraham
3. James Farrior

OROY
1. Matt Ryan
2. Matt Forte
3. Steve Slaton

COTY
1. Mike Smith
2. Tony Sporano
3. Jeff Fox


the panthers coach is named john fox not jeff. and are you a chargers fan because that OPOY looks a little biased. a current charger and two former chargers on that list.

[MyWorldEntire]

the panthers coach is named john fox not jeff. and are you a chargers fan because that OPOY looks a little biased. a current charger and two former chargers on that list.

Actually quite the opposite, I usually always root against the Chargers (except for this past week), and I probably dislike Phillip Rivers more than any other QB in the NFL. But the numbers he has put up don't lie, 32 TD's and more than 3800 yards.

[rcrook]

Brees threw for 800 more yards...

[MyWorldEntire]

Brees threw for 800 more yards...

True but Rivers has more TDs, less picks, and a better rating. And it also doesn't hurt that Rivers is leading the team towards a possible playoff birth, while the Saints are already out of it.

[preppyak]

True but Rivers has more TDs, less picks, and a better rating. And it also doesn't hurt that Rivers is leading the team towards a possible playoff birth, while the Saints are already out of it.
So why Demarcus Ware over the top ranked Defense that Harrison plays for? and how do you put Farrior over Harrison, who has fewer tackles, but 5x the sacks?

[IcedOpethBlind]

MVP
1. Peyton Manning
2. Michael Turner
3. Kurt Warner

Offensive POY
1. DeAngelo Williams
2. Adrian Peterson
3. Drew Brees

Defensive POY
1. Demarcus Ware
2. Joey Porter
3. Mario Williams

[preppyak]

MVP
1. Adrian Peterson
2. James Harrison

Offensive POY
1. Adrian Peterson
2. Drew Brees
3. Deangelo Williams/Michael Turner

Defensive POY
1. James Harrison
2. Joey Porter
3. Demarcus Ware

Offensive ROY
1. Matt Ryan
2. Matt Forte
3. Chris Johnson

Defensive ROY
1. Jerrod Mayo

Coach of the Year
1. Mike Smith
2. Tony Sparano
3. Jeff Fisher

AP has to be OPOY...he's gonna be the only back guaranteed to average 100+yd/game....he's at 110 right now

[MyWorldEntire]

So why Demarcus Ware over the top ranked Defense that Harrison plays for? and how do you put Farrior over both Woodley and Harrison (seeing as Harrison and Woodley both have ridiculous sack numbers and lead that D more)?

I was never basing my decisions completely on the team's record or overall ability, but it is certainly a factor it. Ware has been the most disruptive, game changing defensive player in the NFL this year. Without him, the Cowboys would not be contending for a playoff spot.

And I totally meant to say Harrison, I have no clue why I put Farrior.

[MyWorldEntire]

AP has to be OPOY...he's gonna be the only back guaranteed to average 100+yd/game....he's at 110 right now

The fumbles have been quite costly though.

[preppyak]

I was never basing my decisions completely on the team's record or overall ability, but it is certainly a factor it. Ware has been the most disruptive, game changing defensive player in the NFL this year. Without him, the Cowboys would not be contending for a playoff spot.
Fair enough...I think the fact that the Cowboys defense is 8th instead of 1st makes it Harrison for me...but, any of the three players listed (with Joey Porter the 3rd) would be completely deserving in my mind

[LeftWideOpen]

where is all the Peyton love coming from? His numbers aren't particularly spectacular.

4th among QB's in yards
4th among QB's in completion %
6th among QB's in QB rating
tied w/ 2 other QB's for 3rd in TD's
thrown 12 INT's

I guess I'm missing something here. It's not like he's got a bunch of chumps around him on offense.

[MyWorldEntire]

where is all the Peyton love coming from? His numbers aren't particularly spectacular.

4th among QB's in yards
4th among QB's in completion %
6th among QB's in QB rating
tied w/ 2 other QB's for 3rd in TD's
thrown 12 INT's

I guess I'm missing something here. It's not like he's got a bunch of chumps around him on offense.

What does your list look like?

[LeftWideOpen]

its the first reply. I'd give it to AP, because I don't think there was one player more important to his team's success.

[MyWorldEntire]

haha wow I am really out of it today. I agree that Adrian Peterson is probably the one player who is most important to his team's success. The reason I took Peyton over Peterson was that I felt that Peterson's fumbles have been very costly to the team in the 2nd half of the season. Plus it's difficult to earn the MVP when your team might not even be in the post-season

[thatsignant]

haha wow I am really out of it today. I agree that Adrian Peterson is probably the one player who is most important to his team's success. The reason I took Peyton over Peterson was that I felt that Peterson's fumbles have been very costly to the team in the 2nd half of the season. Plus it's difficult to earn the MVP when your team might not even be in the post-season

Is a fumble more costly than an interception?

[FondestMemory]

mvp
1. adrian peterson
2. brandon jacobs
3. james harrison

opoy
1. drew brees
2. adrian peterson
3. michael turner

dpoy
1. james harrison
2. joey porter
3. albert haynesworth

oroy
1. matt ryan
2. chris johnson
3. matt forte

droy
1. jerrod mayo

coty
1. tony sparano
2. bill belichick
3. mike smith

[theguy77]

there are so many fucking great OROY contenders this year. some of the youngest players are outplaying a lot of the most prestigious veterans.

[theguy77]

where is all the Peyton love coming from? His numbers aren't particularly spectacular.

4th among QB's in yards
4th among QB's in completion %
6th among QB's in QB rating
tied w/ 2 other QB's for 3rd in TD's
thrown 12 INT's

I guess I'm missing something here. It's not like he's got a bunch of chumps around him on offense.

uh, how about 8 straight wins into the playoffs, with a running game ranked 31st and like 6 game winning drives in the process?

if the pats make the playoffs i think matt cassel deserves some serious consideration

[livethesounds]

MVP
1. Adrian Peterson
2. Drew Brees
3. Peyton Manning

OPOY
1. Drew Brees
2. Adrian Peterson
3. Micheal Turner

DPOY
1. Joey Porter
2. Albert Haynesworth
3. James Harrison

OROY
1. Matt Ryan
2. Chris Johnson
3. Matt Forte

DROY
1. Jerod Mayo
2. Chris Horton
3. Curtis Lofton


COTY
1. Mike Smith
2. Jeff Fisher
3. Tony Sparano

[LeftWideOpen]

uh, how about 8 straight wins into the playoffs, with a running game ranked 31st and like 6 game winning drives in the process?

if the pats make the playoffs i think matt cassel deserves some serious consideration

ya, its real tough to throw on teams like Detroit, Houston, San Diego, New England and Cincinati.

he's been very good often, great a couple of games, and mediocre in others ... overall, its been a good season. but he isn't the MVP. I wouldn't even put him in the Top 3 of QB's this year (Brees, Rivers, Warner all had better years).

and matt cassel doesn't deserve serious consideration. there is a case for him, maybe, to be in the pro bowl .. but the numbers weren't there on a consistent enough basis to really be a serious MVP contender.

[derian2219]

MVP
1. Peyton Manning - Colts would probably have only 3 or 4 wins without him
2. Michael Turner
3. Phillip Rivers

OPOY
1. Adrian Peterson
2. Drew Brees
3. Andre Johnson

DPOY
1. Demarcus Ware
2. Ed Reed
3. Jared Allen

OROY
1. Matt Forte
2. Matt Ryan
3. Chris Johnson

DROY
1. Jerod Mayo
no one else worthy

COTY
1. Mike Smith
2. Tony Spurano
3. Rod Marinelli...jk

[LeftWideOpen]

MVP
1. Peyton Manning - Colts would probably have only 3 or 4 wins without him


and they might have 14 this year if they had Drew Brees. Who knows?

the numbers aren't there this year. and saying if you take away somebody the team will stink is the most flawed, hypothetical argument because it's not like the Colts would make Jim Sorgi their QB if Peyton was wearing a different uniform.

[Scott Weber]

I think Peyton for MVP is bullshit.

MVP
1. Deangelo Williams
2. Adrian Peterson
3. Kurt Warner

Offensive POY
1. Drew Brees
2. Kurt Warner
3. Brandon Jacobs

Defensive POY
1. Demarcus Ware
2. James Harrison
3. Albert Haynesworth

Offensive ROY
1. Matt Ryan
2. Chris Johnson
3. Matt Forte



Coach of the Year
1. Mike Smith
2. Jeff Fisher
3. Tony Sparano

[derian2219]

and they might have 14 this year if they had Drew Brees. Who knows?

the numbers aren't there this year. and saying if you take away somebody the team will stink is the most flawed, hypothetical argument because it's not like the Colts would make Jim Sorgi their QB if Peyton was wearing a different uniform.


Going by numbers would be stupid. Is Emmitt Smith the best running back ever? It's who is more valuable to their respected team, and in my opinion Peyton is by far the most valuable player in the league.

[derian2219]

I will respectively disagree with Deangelo Williams for MVP. Chris Johnson would be just as deserving of that title then.

[LeftWideOpen]

Going by numbers would be stupid. Is Emmitt Smith the best running back ever? It's who is more valuable to their respected team, and in my opinion Peyton is by far the most valuable player in the league.

I don't even know what to say to that. Your entire argument is subjective.

And it's not as though there is one particular stat I'm going by. Across the board (yards, TD/INT ratio, QB rating, completion %), his numbers are inferior as a total package.

[derian2219]

I don't even know what to say to that. Your entire argument is subjective.

And it's not as though there is one particular stat I'm going by. Across the board (yards, TD/INT ratio, QB rating, completion %), his numbers are inferior as a total package.

Again you are going by stats. His team is inferior and injury plagued, yet, they keep on winning. The Colts would be nothing without Peyton Manning. The same thing could be said about Drew Brees as well.

[LeftWideOpen]

The Colts are 11th in the league in team defense. Manning also has a WR group that easily places in the top 1/3 of the league. You are acting like the rest of the team is garbage and there's nothing further from the truth. You'd think you'd give Bill Polian and Tony Dungy a little more credit.

And a big reason the running game is 31st in the league is because they are 30th in attempts. The offense is based around the pass. If you want to play that game, then you should have Kurt Warner as your MVP because he has the 32nd ranked rushing attack in the league.

and for what its worth, Indy is 17th in the league in rushing TD's, so they are getting points from their backs.

[derian2219]

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this topic then. We'll see in about a month who wins.

[LeftWideOpen]

I guess I just don't see you making any case beyond "I think hes the MVP". If you aren't going by numbers, which are ultimately what contribute to scoring and, thus, winning ... what are you going by?

[derian2219]

Peyton Manning is the Colts offense. Most of the play calling and audibles are done by him as well. His stats aren't up this year because of injuries to his offense as a whole. Marvin Harrison is not the same. The O-line is terrible and the Defense is very average. Teams can walk right over them. And if you want to go by winning, Peyton Manning has 11 wins for his team in a tough division and conference. Easily the most feared QB in the league.

[Scott Weber]

I hate this kind of argument. I expect a Floyd-ian "I'm not allowed to have an opinion now?" comment.

[preppyak]

Going by numbers would be stupid.
The MVP for the last 4 years (Brady, LT, Alexander, Manning) has set a prolific offensive mark of some sort...and Jamal Lewis came up 39 yds short, thus his award...so I'd argue that while the wording makes it sound differently, it very much is a statistical award
I will respectively disagree with Deangelo Williams for MVP. Chris Johnson would be just as deserving of that title then.
How? He has half the touchdowns and 100 fewer yards...he doesn't lead his own team in TD's. The better argument against Williams is Turner who, in the same division, has just 2 fewer TD's and more yards
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this topic then. We'll see in about a month who wins.
Just because Manning will win it doesn't mean you had the right argument...as wel all know, who ESPN SAYS should win it almost always wins awards

[LeftWideOpen]

Peyton Manning is the Colts offense.

Reggie Wayne? Dallas Clark? Anthony Gonzalez? And Marvin Harrison may not be the same, but he's a fine 3rd option. He has more weapons than most guys get to work with.

Most of the play calling and audibles are done by him as well.

I won't argue this. He is excellent pre-snap.

the Defense is very average. Teams can walk right over them.

Not true. They are 11th in total defense, 8th in points allowed, 11th in yards per game, and they are the least penalized defense in football. They are better than average.


And if you want to go by winning, Peyton Manning has 11 wins for his team in a tough division and conference.

There is no real different in the leagues this year. Both are pretty much on the same level. And this win streak you mentioned before consists of Cleveland, Cincinati, Detroit, Jacksonville, Houston, San Diego, Pittsburgh and New England. With the exception of the last 2, which are up in the air, those are games that the Colts should win with the talent they have.

Easily the most feared QB in the league.

This means nothing.

[derian2219]

The MVP for the last 4 years (Brady, LT, Alexander, Manning) has set a prolific offensive mark of some sort...and Jamal Lewis came up 39 yds short, thus his award...so I'd argue that while the wording makes it sound differently, it very much is a statistical award

How? He has half the touchdowns and 100 fewer yards...he doesn't lead his own team in TD's. The better argument against Williams is Turner who, in the same division, has just 2 fewer TD's and more yards

Just because Manning will win it doesn't mean you had the right argument...as wel all know, who ESPN SAYS should win it almost always wins awards



His backup has 9 td's and chris johnson has more total yards so your argument is skewed.


Did anyone doubt the last 4 MVP's? No, Peyton Manning is more valuable to his team, hands down. I'm done arguing with you all. Merry Christmas to all.

[LeftWideOpen]

and I know it sounds like I am discrediting Peyton, which I'm not ... I'm merely making the case that he isn't the MVP. He's a great QB who had a very good year, but he wasn't the best player in football this year.

[Scott Weber]

I find it so annoying when people come in here and start a big debate, then when other people take the time to respond individually to each point, they run away.

[LeftWideOpen]

Did anyone doubt the last 4 MVP's? No, Peyton Manning is more valuable to his team, hands down. I'm done arguing with you all. Merry Christmas to all.

we're having a discussion and you made, and continue to make, a very bold claim. i happen to think one way and you happen to think another, so tell me why my points are wrong.

[derian2219]

And what's your case for Deangelo Williams?

[Scott Weber]

And what's your case for Deangelo Williams?
Like I would take my time to argue with you after you just ran away from a Peyton Manning argument.

[derian2219]

we're having a discussion and you made, and continue to make, a very bold claim. i happen to think one way and you happen to think another, so tell me why my points are wrong.

I already offered to Agree to Disagree. I said his defense is average which it is. 11th in the league is middle of the pack. No other player in the league orchestrates a offense like him. Yes, his numbers are down from normal years because he does not have as much time in the pocket and is always under pressure.

[preppyak]

His backup has 9 td's and chris johnson has more total yards so your argument is skewed.
Is that an argument against Deangelo Williams? I'm confused how that is relevant at all...that Stewart has 9TD's, as many as Johnson, yet you present Johnson as equal to Willams?

And as for total yards...its like 20-30 yards...which doesn't overcome a 20 to 10 TD advantage overall

[preppyak]

I already offered to Agree to Disagree. I said his defense is average which it is. 11th in the league is middle of the pack. No other player in the league orchestrates a offense like him. Yes, his numbers are down from normal years because he does not have as much time in the pocket and is always under pressure.
And this is a viable reason NOT to give him the MVP...shit, throw Matt Cassel in the ring then, he has the worst pass protecting O-line in the league yet still threw for 3600yds and 20+ TD's.

In a year where you have running backs who have almost as many TD's as QB's have thrown for, it seems hard to give the award to a guy who is almost 900yds and 6TD's off being the best in his position

[derian2219]

Is that an argument against Deangelo Williams? I'm confused how that is relevant at all...that Stewart has 9TD's, as many as Johnson, yet you present him as equal to Willams?

And as for total yards...its like 20-30 yards...which doesn't overcome a 20 to 10 TD advantage overall

The relevance is that Stewart in about half as many carries has half as many td's and he also is not their goal line runner. It makes Williams not as valuable. Having Deangelo Williams win it over someone like Adrian Peterson, Peyton Manning or even Drew Brees would be horrible. He just is not deserving of the award. He is in the discussion for OPOY though, no doubt about it.

[derian2219]

And this is a viable reason NOT to give him the MVP...shit, throw Matt Cassel in the ring then, he has the worst pass protecting O-line in the league yet still threw for 3600yds and 20+ TD's.

In a year where you have running backs who have almost as many TD's as QB's have thrown for, it seems hard to give the award to a guy who is almost 900yds and 6TD's off being the best in his position

You are misunderstanding the meaning of the MVP award. It's not Most Outstanding. If it was most outstanding then the award would be going to Drew Bree's or AP.

[Scott Weber]

The relevance is that Stewart in about half as many carries has half as many td's and he also is not their goal line runner. It makes Williams not as valuable. Having Deangelo Williams win it over someone like Adrian Peterson, Peyton Manning or even Drew Brees would be horrible. He just is not deserving of the award. He is in the discussion for OPOY though, no doubt about it.
Oh my god, this is stupid. Stewart was absolutely their goal line runner for the first 4 or 5 weeks, which is where nearly half of his TDs came from. The two alternated series after that with Williams getting more touches, but Stewart got his chances too. Who cares? If you're arguing touchdowns, then your case for AP is hurt anyways. Brees is up for POY, but I'm not giving it to somebody who isn't making the playoffs. Deangelo Williams carried the Panthers to a much improved year from last year, Peterson carried them to what, the same situation they were in last year? Sure, AP has more yards, but it took him 100 more carries to get those extra 300 yards. Meanwhile, Williams has ensured a 1st round bye for the Panthers and has broken of more than a handful of long, explosive runs. Peterson's been the workhorse, and that's why he's my #2. It's extremely close. But the turnaround for the Panthers and Williams' breakthrough puts that through for me.

[derian2219]

Oh my god, this is stupid. Stewart was absolutely their goal line runner for the first 4 or 5 weeks, which is where nearly half of his TDs came from. The two alternated series after that with Williams getting more touches, but Stewart got his chances too. Who cares? If you're arguing touchdowns, then your case for AP is hurt anyways. Brees is up for POY, but I'm not giving it to somebody who isn't making the playoffs. Deangelo Williams carried the Panthers to a much improved year from last year, Peterson carried them to what, the same situation they were in last year? Sure, AP has more yards, but it took him 100 more carries to get those extra 300 yards. Meanwhile, Williams has ensured a 1st round bye for the Panthers and has broken of more than a handful of long, explosive runs. Peterson's been the workhorse, and that's why he's my #2. It's extremely close. But the turnaround for the Panthers and Williams' breakthrough puts that through for me.

Panthers could drop to the 5th seed if they lose and the Falcons win. I'm not going to argue that Deangelo Williams didn't have a good year because he had a great year. Was it more valuable than AP, Peytons, or Brees. No, not even close. Stewart and Willams have a margin of .7 on their YPA. You cannot give MVP to a part time player.

[LeftWideOpen]

You are misunderstanding the meaning of the MVP award.

I'm glad, then, that you are the one person in the world who has perfected a measure that blends statistical success and the concept of value. You should patent it, quickly, and not tell anyone before you do .. because I've never met anyone who can explain an objective measure for value in sports that doesn't involve statistics and you could render writers voting obsolete.

[LeftWideOpen]

Oh my god, this is stupid. Stewart was absolutely their goal line runner for the first 4 or 5 weeks, which is where nearly half of his TDs came from. The two alternated series after that with Williams getting more touches, but Stewart got his chances too. Who cares? If you're arguing touchdowns, then your case for AP is hurt anyways. Brees is up for POY, but I'm not giving it to somebody who isn't making the playoffs. Deangelo Williams carried the Panthers to a much improved year from last year, Peterson carried them to what, the same situation they were in last year? Sure, AP has more yards, but it took him 100 more carries to get those extra 300 yards. Meanwhile, Williams has ensured a 1st round bye for the Panthers and has broken of more than a handful of long, explosive runs. Peterson's been the workhorse, and that's why he's my #2. It's extremely close. But the turnaround for the Panthers and Williams' breakthrough puts that through for me.

I would have no problem with Williams winning it because there wasn't a bigger threat in football then him when someone touched the ball . I give Peterson the edge because I prefer the consistent workhorse. I don't think anyone else gave their team a better chance to win, week in and week out.

Panthers could drop to the 5th seed if they lose and the Falcons win. I'm not going to argue that Deangelo Williams didn't have a good year because he had a great year. Was it more valuable than AP, Peytons, or Brees. No, not even close. Stewart and Willams have a margin of .7 on their YPA. You cannot give MVP to a part time player.

.7 is a wide margin and Williams YPA is insane. He also scores more than anyone else in the league.

what's the definition of a part-time player, by the way?

[derian2219]

I'm glad then, that you are the one person in the world who has perfected a measure that blends statistical success and value. You should patent it, quickly, and not tell anyone before you do .. because I've never met anyone who can explain an objective measure for value in sports that doesn't involve statistics and you could render writers voting obsolete.

His statistics are top 5 for his position, on a injury plagued team and they are going to the playoffs on a 8 game winning streak, possibly 9. Like you said, statistics leads to winning. In the last 8 weeks his numbers have blown up from the first 7 weeks. But we are entitled to our own opinion and I'll respect that you don't think Peyton deserves it.

[rcrook]

LWO you've persuaded me to change my MVP vote to AP.

[LeftWideOpen]

I don't think AP is the clear cut choice by any means, there are a few other deserving guys .. I just don't think Manning belongs in that group this season. If someone made a case for a guy like Williams, I couldn't argue they are wrong.

[derian2219]

I would have no problem with Williams winning it because there wasn't a bigger threat in football then him when someone touched the ball . I give Peterson the edge because I prefer the consistent workhorse.



.7 is a wide margin and Williams YPA is insane. He also scores more than anyone else in the league.

what's the definition of a part-time player, by the way?

He's getting roughly 60% of the carries and probably around 63% of the touches between Him and Stewart. His YPA is great, but if I had to choose between AP and Williams I would take AP because he is the workhorse. You could also throw Brandon Jacobs into the mix as well.

[rcrook]

Am I missing something or are you trying to argue AP over Williams with LWO who voted AP?

[derian2219]

I'm not sure either, hah. I think what happened is we were arguing Peyton over Williams. Then AP got thrown into the mix, and a whole clusterfuck of arguments occurred.

[Scott Weber]

Panthers could drop to the 5th seed if they lose and the Falcons win. I'm not going to argue that Deangelo Williams didn't have a good year because he had a great year. Was it more valuable than AP, Peytons, or Brees. No, not even close. Stewart and Willams have a margin of .7 on their YPA. You cannot give MVP to a part time player.
250 carries is not a part time player, I don't care if he's got a slight time-share or not. Depending on how many he gets in week 17, that number will likely be top 10 in the NFL in carries. And that margin of .7 in YPC is massive, it is not insignificant.

[derian2219]

A 60/40 time share is not slight by any means.

[Scott Weber]

A 60/40 time share is not slight by any means.
So the Panthers run a lot, the "time share" aspect is irrelevant. He's 11th in the NFL in carries, does that sound like a "time share?" Please. And he's had to carry the ball less because of that massive YPC.

[derian2219]

Well the YPC argument could be used for Derrick Ward as well then. Williams went against the Lions and put up 200+ so that adds to his YPC. It's hard to not have good stats when your o-line is having a phenomenal year.

[preppyak]

You are misunderstanding the meaning of the MVP award. It's not Most Outstanding. If it was most outstanding then the award would be going to Drew Bree's or AP.
Words are words...for the last 5 years, the words have meant "Best Player" and statistics have played a huge part. Do you really think journalists sit down and discuss for hours the meaning of the term valuable and how it applies to the award?

Example...Kurt Warner and Marshall Faulk split MVP awards over 3 seasons...why? Because in each year one was more valuable to that team? No, it was because one had a better statistical year, than the other. They were both major factors on one of the better teams in the league, thus their consideration. What's more valuable than points and yards gained? Or, in a defensive case, points and possesions stopped.

Drew Brees, if we want to argue value, is the reason the Saints aren't competing with the Lions for last place...Kurt Warner is literally like 70+% of the Cardinals offense and the only reason the NFC West has a winning team. Both are as valuable to their teams in my mind as Peyton, because to win a game, they have to score a whole TD (19.9 v 24.4 and 26ish) more than Peyton does with equally terrible running games.

Kurt Warner's stats and Peyton mannings stats are, literally, the exact same in efficiency, though Warner has more yards. The value to their teams is, in points, the exact same (26 TD's)...and yet their records differ...the reason being that the Cardinals defense gives up a TD more per game and they lose close games. By the definition of "valuable", doesn't that make Kurt Warner exactly as valuable (I won't argue the more valuable point). So we have a split MVP then, if we go by the official words of the award.

And I won't touch the William's argument because it was never about if he was a viable MVP candidate, your original statement was that Chris Johnson was as deserving, and that's 100% wrong...seeing as his backup has 15 TD's, which makes him even less valuable, by your standards, than the Stewart to Williams value

[rcrook]

derian you are all sorts of fail in the two football threads today

[Scott Weber]

Well the YPC argument could be used for Derrick Ward as well then. Williams went against the Lions and put up 200+ so that adds to his YPC. It's hard to not have good stats when your o-line is having a phenomenal year.
Don't even begin with that argument, it applies to every single player who's having any success in the league, including Peyton Manning.

[derian2219]

I would honestly be completely fine with a Co-MVP between Kurt Warner and Peyton Manning/Brees. But, this is one of the years where there is not a clear cut MVP candidate and you cannot just hand it to them because their stats are more legit than the others. 100% of the time Peyton Manning is more valuable to his team than any other player in the league. I could be certain of that.

[preppyak]

Was it more valuable than AP, Peytons, or Brees. No, not even close.
Wrong. It's absolutely close. Statistically, Williams is having a better season than AP, in YPC, TD, fumbles, the list goes on...the only advantage AP has is in yards and carries, but, turns out the argument is that because AP is less efficient than Williams, he actually hurts his team more by not gaining more yards per carry. Not to mention he's fumbled twice on potential game-winning drives...give me the value in that.

You keep making these arguments some sort of absolute...when really, they are very close. Brady winning was an absolute...who wins it this year is very much up in the air

[derian2219]

Don't even begin with that argument, it applies to every single player who's having any success in the league, including Peyton Manning.

And isn't it weird that despite his whole O-Line being injured he still puts up great numbers and still wins.

[crit]

I would honestly be completely fine with a Co-MVP between Kurt Warner and Peyton Manning/Brees. But, this is one of the years where there is not a clear cut MVP candidate and you cannot just hand it to them because their stats are more legit than the others. 100% of the time Peyton Manning is more valuable to his team than any other player in the league. I could be certain of that.
You could be? So you aren't even certain if you are certain?

[derian2219]

You could be? So you aren't even certain if you are certain?

My bad, typo.

[rcrook]

you guys have to understand that this guy had Rivers and Turner as his 2 and 3 in his MVP ballot. Both having great seasons but I can think of 5-10 guys that are more valuable.

[preppyak]

100% of the time Peyton Manning is more valuable to his team than any other player in the league. I could be certain of that.
Ok...so you just confused Colt's team MVP and NFL MVP...gotcha. You clearly have never followed the way NFL MVP voting has gone for the last, shit, I'll say 10 years...and all the discussions that have centered around literally renaming the award to match what it really is, which is, usually, "best player"

[derian2219]

Wrong. It's absolutely close. Statistically, Williams is having a better season than AP, in YPC, TD, fumbles, the list goes on...the only advantage AP has is in yards and carries, but, turns out the argument is that because AP is less efficient than Williams, he actually hurts his team more by not gaining more yards per carry. Not to mention he's fumbled twice on potential game-winning drives...give me the value in that.

You keep making these arguments some sort of absolute...when really, they are very close. Brady winning was an absolute...who wins it this year is very much up in the air

Williams most of the time is fresh when he enters the game because he gets spelled more often than AP.

[derian2219]

you guys have to understand that this guy had Rivers and Turner as his 2 and 3 in his MVP ballot. Both having great seasons but I can think of 5-10 guys that are more valuable.

Without Rivers the Chargers are not even close to being in the playoff hunt. Without Turner the Falcons are the doormat of the NFC South.

[Scott Weber]

And isn't it weird that despite his whole O-Line being injured he still puts up great numbers and still wins.
Except he doesn't have great numbers. His yards/completion are the lowest of his entire career (since his rookie year). He's been good, not great.

[Scott Weber]

Without Rivers the Chargers are not even close to being in the playoff hunt. Without Turner the Falcons are the doormat of the NFC South.
Without Matt Ryan the Falcons are the doormat. I'm not convinced Turner has much success in that lineup at all if it weren't for Matt Ryan opening up things.

[derian2219]

Top 5 in the league. But I guess you guys believe that best stats ='s best player. So whatever I'm done arguing with people that are incompetent.

[rcrook]

If Turner was there last year with QBs such as Byron Leftwich and Chris Redman he would not be nearly as successful as this season.

[preppyak]

Without Rivers the Chargers are not even close to being in the playoff hunt. Without Turner the Falcons are the doormat of the NFC South.
And without Deangelo Willaims, the Panthers are probably a .500 team...seeing as he accounts for a significant chunk of yards and points. You want Jake Dehlomme..a guy who is less thana 60% passer and has basically a 1:1 TD ratio leading that team to the playoffs? Or to the head of that division even?

[Scott Weber]

Top 5 in the league. But I guess you guys believe that best stats ='s best player. So whatever I'm done arguing with people that are incompetent.
That's our line.

[rcrook]

If 5-6 people are arguing against you don't you think that you might be the incompetent one? I'm almost certain of that!

[LeftWideOpen]

Except he doesn't have great numbers. His yards/completion are the lowest of his entire career (since his rookie year). He's been good, not great.

And every team deals with injuries. The Colts are not alone in that respect.

is Jay Cutler the MVP because he has good numbers and lost more than a 1/2 dozen running backs? Of course not.

[preppyak]

Top 5 in the league. But I guess you guys believe that best stats ='s best player. So whatever I'm done arguing with people that are incompetent.
Finally...that was 30 posts of stupidity to get you to make an attack for the thread ban

[preppyak]

haha, seriously...give Shanahan coach of the year because he's replaced 19 RB's!!!!

[rcrook]

bahahahahaha he put an apostrophe s after the equal sign. like we werent going to understand if he didn't punctuate a sign.

[batmannj]

Words are words...for the last 5 years, the words have meant "Best Player" and statistics have played a huge part. Do you really think journalists sit down and discuss for hours the meaning of the term valuable and how it applies to the award?

Example...Kurt Warner and Marshall Faulk split MVP awards over 3 seasons...why? Because in each year one was more valuable to that team? No, it was because one had a better statistical year, than the other. They were both major factors on one of the better teams in the league, thus their consideration. What's more valuable than points and yards gained? Or, in a defensive case, points and possesions stopped.

Drew Brees, if we want to argue value, is the reason the Saints aren't competing with the Lions for last place...Kurt Warner is literally like 70+% of the Cardinals offense and the only reason the NFC West has a winning team. Both are as valuable to their teams in my mind as Peyton, because to win a game, they have to score a whole TD (19.9 v 24.4 and 26ish) more than Peyton does with equally terrible running games.

Kurt Warner's stats and Peyton mannings stats are, literally, the exact same in efficiency, though Warner has more yards. The value to their teams is, in points, the exact same (26 TD's)...and yet their records differ...the reason being that the Cardinals defense gives up a TD more per game and they lose close games. By the definition of "valuable", doesn't that make Kurt Warner exactly as valuable (I won't argue the more valuable point). So we have a split MVP then, if we go by the official words of the award.

And I won't touch the William's argument because it was never about if he was a viable MVP candidate, your original statement was that Chris Johnson was as deserving, and that's 100% wrong...seeing as his backup has 15 TD's, which makes him even less valuable, by your standards, than the Stewart to Williams value
1) your example of kurt warner and marshall faulk is not a good one. look at what the rams were before they had both warner and faulk playing, and look at what happened after. Yes, they had the best statistics and they were the most valuable.

2) Have you watched the lions this year? i am a lions fan and have had to sit through their crap for years, but the saints, even without brees, are still at least a 4 win team. that is in now "competing" with the lions for last place.

3) You do bring up a compelling arguement about Warner and Peyton's stats, but the Colts defense this year has been horrific, and the running game has been seriously hampered by joesph addai missing significant time. trying to make an arguement against peyton manning as an MVP contender is the same as trying to dismiss the team itself. Peyton's stats are still very solid: 93.8 QB Rating, 3907 passing yards 26 TD's 12 INT's. Also on the 8 game winning streak that the Colts have been on, outside of the game against cleveland, Peyton has had a QB rating above 92 in every game, and he has gone for 16 TD's and 3 INT's (2 in the game against Cleveland). So essentially we are talking about him playing nearly perfect football down the second half of the season when his team needed him most. Plus Peyton did his work against teams like the steelers, patriots, and the chargers. Warner has faded, and in the last five games has only had one game with his QB rating over 90.

4) Yes, DeAngelo Williams is totally a viable MVP contender and he deserves to be in the arguement, but the arguement that he is more valuable than Peyton is somewhat flawed. The most carries that DeAngelo has had in a game this season is 24 in a game against the new york giants where he also had 4 TD's, and had a spectacular game. But putting him as more valuable than Petyon is again flawed. Peyton touches the ball on every play, and has not had his main feature back, or argueably his favorite target healthy for most of the season in Marvin Harrison. The defense has struggled mightily, and Peyton has had to shoulder the load for the most part. Williams has another back in his system that has had 170 Carries this season and has also been a very key part of the offense. This also brings up the topic of the Offensive lines of both teams. Jeff Saturday missed 5 games for the Colts this season and is one of the best centers in the league, this hindered the Colts in the earlier part of the season. The Panthers have a great offensive line, and this is part of the reason why Jonathon Stewart is also averaging 4.7 YPC as well.

To boil it down into its simplest forms, the Panthers run a system where most backs would be successful, but an elite back (such as De Williams) would be able to put up monster numbers. This is not a nock against him, nor am I saying he should not be in the discussion. What I am saying is that Peyton Manning is by far the MVP of the league because of his play down the stretch when his team has needed him most, as opposed to De Williams putting up huge numbers on a team that all around is better than the Colts. If you don't like it, check the numbers.

[xbrokendownx]

1) your example of kurt warner and marshall faulk is not a good one. look at what the rams were before they had both warner and faulk playing, and look at what happened after. Yes, they had the best statistics and they were the most valuable.

2) Have you watched the lions this year? i am a lions fan and have had to sit through their crap for years, but the saints, even without brees, are still at least a 4 win team. that is in now "competing" with the lions for last place.

3) You do bring up a compelling arguement about Warner and Peyton's stats, but the Colts defense this year has been horrific, and the running game has been seriously hampered by joesph addai missing significant time. trying to make an arguement against peyton manning as an MVP contender is the same as trying to dismiss the team itself. Peyton's stats are still very solid: 93.8 QB Rating, 3907 passing yards 26 TD's 12 INT's. Also on the 8 game winning streak that the Colts have been on, outside of the game against cleveland, Peyton has had a QB rating above 92 in every game, and he has gone for 16 TD's and 3 INT's (2 in the game against Cleveland). So essentially we are talking about him playing nearly perfect football down the second half of the season when his team needed him most. Plus Peyton did his work against teams like the steelers, patriots, and the chargers. Warner has faded, and in the last five games has only had one game with his QB rating over 90.

4) Yes, DeAngelo Williams is totally a viable MVP contender and he deserves to be in the arguement, but the arguement that he is more valuable than Peyton is somewhat flawed. The most carries that DeAngelo has had in a game this season is 24 in a game against the new york giants where he also had 4 TD's, and had a spectacular game. But putting him as more valuable than Petyon is again flawed. Peyton touches the ball on every play, and has not had his main feature back, or argueably his favorite target healthy for most of the season in Marvin Harrison. The defense has struggled mightily, and Peyton has had to shoulder the load for the most part. Williams has another back in his system that has had 170 Carries this season and has also been a very key part of the offense. This also brings up the topic of the Offensive lines of both teams. Jeff Saturday missed 5 games for the Colts this season and is one of the best centers in the league, this hindered the Colts in the earlier part of the season. The Panthers have a great offensive line, and this is part of the reason why Jonathon Stewart is also averaging 4.7 YPC as well.

To boil it down into its simplest forms, the Panthers run a system where most backs would be successful, but an elite back (such as De Williams) would be able to put up monster numbers. This is not a nock against him, nor am I saying he should not be in the discussion. What I am saying is that Peyton Manning is by far the MVP of the league because of his play down the stretch when his team has needed him most, as opposed to De Williams putting up huge numbers on a team that all around is better than the Colts. If you don't like it, check the numbers.




Colts D is ranked 11th in YPG allowed and 8th in PPG allowed.

[LeftWideOpen]

yeah, batman, I already went thru this with the other guy in this thread and debunked many of the same myths you just brought up again.

and by the way, wins in week 1 count just the same as wins in week 16. peyton playing better later in the season doesn't make his case anymore special.

[batmannj]

Except he doesn't have great numbers. His yards/completion are the lowest of his entire career (since his rookie year). He's been good, not great.
Peyton still has been completing his passes at a 66.4% clip and and his completion percentages in the Colts eight game win streak?: 72, 52, 65, 72, 71, 81, 75, and 85. TD's? 16 INT's? 3.

My point is that Peyton has showed up when he has needed too. True, maybe his numbers are not Brady esque, but at the same time, look at what Peyton has done in crunch time.

[batmannj]

yeah, batman, I already went thru this with the other guy in this thread and debunked many of the same myths you just brought up again.

and by the way, wins in week 1 count just the same as wins in week 16. peyton playing better later in the season doesn't make his case anymore special.
myths....?

what NFL are you watching? i will be laughing when Peyton wins the MVP sir.

[xbrokendownx]

i have to be honest, the discussion in here has caused me to change my vote from Manning

[batmannj]

Colts D is ranked 11th in YPG allowed and 8th in PPG allowed.
well pardon my poor use of the language. the colts are not blessed with a top tier defense like the carolina panthers sir.

[batmannj]

i have to be honest, the discussion in here has caused me to change my vote from Manning
oh, ok. i get it, neat. why are you not voting for manning then?

[batmannj]

Without Matt Ryan the Falcons are the doormat. I'm not convinced Turner has much success in that lineup at all if it weren't for Matt Ryan opening up things.
i dont know if you can definitively say that. turner is second in the nfl in rushing yards, and has 16 TD's. also roddy white has been huge for Ryan and so has michael jenkins. although, i do believe matt ryan is a slam dunk for rookie of the year and is going to be an elite franchise QB.

[LeftWideOpen]

myths....?

what NFL are you watching? i will be laughing when Peyton wins the MVP sir.

the one where they keep stats.

look at the numbers. there is no case for Peyton as MVP. read this thread if you want a summary of them, since i can imagine research doesn't really jive with ignorance.

[LeftWideOpen]

well pardon my poor use of the language. the colts are not blessed with a top tier defense like the carolina panthers sir.

The Colts defense is ranked ahead of the Panthers, Skip. That took me 5 seconds to find out.

[batmannj]

yeah, batman, I already went thru this with the other guy in this thread and debunked many of the same myths you just brought up again.

and by the way, wins in week 1 count just the same as wins in week 16. peyton playing better later in the season doesn't make his case anymore special.
actually it does. his team was 3-4, and his team was about to go on a stretch where they played new england and pittsburgh with their backs against the wall, what does he do? he plays his best football of the season. yes wins do count the same, and as i said before, i am not trying to discredit de williams, i am just saying that peyton manning is much better contender.

[batmannj]

The Colts defense is ranked ahead of the Panthers, Skip. That took me 5 seconds to find out.
the colts defense may be ranked higher, but i would say that the panthers defense is better. there is more to life than rankings.

and do not call me skip.

[derian2219]

the one where they keep stats.

look at the numbers. there is no case for Peyton as MVP. read this thread if you want a summary of them, since i can imagine research doesn't really jive with ignorance.

Against good Defenses Deangelo has had poor games of 31, 27, 54, 27, 66 and 72 yards. No case for MVP then.

[batmannj]

the one where they keep stats.

look at the numbers. there is no case for Peyton as MVP. read this thread if you want a summary of them, since i can imagine research doesn't really jive with ignorance.
ignorance? there is no case for Peyton as MVP? are you serious? really?

[rcrook]

why do people bury their head so far up peyton manning's ass?

[rcrook]

The Colts defense is ranked ahead of the Panthers, Skip. That took me 5 seconds to find out.

yup, give up less ypg and the same ppg as the panthers. why don't people take a minute to look at stats? the kid in the brady/manning thread claimed that manning had less ints and better completion percentage than brady did in their record setting years. it took me no more than 2 minutes to look at the stats and realize he was wrong. you guys just can't make claims without looking at the statistical evidence.

[batmannj]

I guess I just don't see you making any case beyond "I think hes the MVP". If you aren't going by numbers, which are ultimately what contribute to scoring and, thus, winning ... what are you going by?
ugh, reading this logic makes me sick.

i have been researching your debunking of "myths", and i find it to be absolutely disgusting.

your scoring equals winning theory is nice....in theory. peyton manning has taken his team to 8 straight wins. yes some of the competition has been less than savory, but you cannot knock him for that. in the early part of the year, his offensive line was hurt, and the defense was not stopping anyone, leading to my colts defense has been horrific words.

arguing just the numbers is stupid, i mean texas tech should in theory win the NCAA title every year and it was a travesty that grahm herral didnt win the Heisman. MVP voting has to be subjective, otherwise it is nothing more than a race to the best numbers.

[batmannj]

why do people bury their head so far up peyton manning's ass?
why cant people on AP.net make logical arguements without having to decend into swear words?

[batmannj]

yup, give up less ypg and the same ppg as the panthers. why don't people take a minute to look at stats? the kid in the brady/manning thread claimed that manning had less ints and better completion percentage than brady did in their record setting years. it took me no more than 2 minutes to look at the stats and realize he was wrong. you guys just can't make claims without looking at the statistical evidence.
i have been using stats, it is just that in the early part of the year, peyton's defense was not performing well. against the bears they gave up 29 in week one, in week 3, 23 to the jags, week 5, 27 to the texans (by the way, that game was one stupid play by sage rosenfels from being another colts loss), and 34 points to the packers. in recent weeks the colts have been playing better yes, in part because of peyton's improvement.

[FondestMemory]

this thread is full of all sorts of fail today.

[rcrook]

do you notice nobody is defending you? maybe you're the one that is not logical.

[batmannj]

do you notice nobody is defending you? maybe you're the one that is not logical.
i dont need anyone to defend me on an internet site sir, i can do it myself.

do you just want me to fold my arguement because you disagree? i believe what i believe for a reason, and if you dont agree with me i wont lose any sleep tonight. i feel like the good folks who have MVP votes are going to me inclined to agree with me.

plus, you will not get an arguement out of me if adrian peterson wins the MVP. he is just as deserving imo, and i will not be crushed either way. i just think people saying that peyton has just been "good" this season has not been paying much attention to this season of football.

[derian2219]

John Clayton--
In case you haven’t noticed, Peyton Manning is getting hot as the weather gets cold. In Sunday’s 31-21 victory over the Lions, Manning completed 28 of 37 passes for 318 yards. Over the past four games, he’s completed 75.3 percent of his passes. The Colts, meanwhile, have won seven in a row and appear to be heading toward the fifth seed in the AFC playoffs. Slowly, Manning is gaining momentum in the MVP race, but he’s competing against Kurt Warner, Adrian Peterson, Drew Brees and others.

There is an interesting dynamic working for Manning and the Colts that has slipped under the radar. Manning needed only nine offensive possessions to score 31 points against the Lions. If you are wondering why the Colts’ offense isn’t posting big numbers, it’s because of Manning’s efficiency. In 14 games, Manning has had a league-low 134 drives. He’s converted 36 for touchdowns, meaning he’s orchestrating a touchdown drive on one of every four possessions. He’s sacrificing stats to keep his defense rested.

[rcrook]

John Clayton--
In case you haven’t noticed, Peyton Manning is getting hot as the weather gets cold. In Sunday’s 31-21 victory over the Lions, Manning completed 28 of 37 passes for 318 yards. Over the past four games, he’s completed 75.3 percent of his passes. The Colts, meanwhile, have won seven in a row and appear to be heading toward the fifth seed in the AFC playoffs. Slowly, Manning is gaining momentum in the MVP race, but he’s competing against Kurt Warner, Adrian Peterson, Drew Brees and others.

There is an interesting dynamic working for Manning and the Colts that has slipped under the radar. Manning needed only nine offensive possessions to score 31 points against the Lions. If you are wondering why the Colts’ offense isn’t posting big numbers, it’s because of Manning’s efficiency. In 14 games, Manning has had a league-low 134 drives. He’s converted 36 for touchdowns, meaning he’s orchestrating a touchdown drive on one of every four possessions. He’s sacrificing stats to keep his defense rested.

it took them that many possessions to score that many points against Detroit?

[derian2219]

it took them that many possessions to score that many points against Detroit?

That's a relatively low amount of possessions for a whole game. And scoring on over half of those is very good.

[rcrook]

he could have used a much better example than the lions. do you really think peyton is sacrificing his stats to give his defense more rest or is he just having a down year?

[derian2219]

At the time that was there most recent game. I honestly believe he is sacrificing his stats for his defense to get more rest and thus play better. He has to throw a lot more short passes because his o line is below par and his WR's aren't that explosive, which leads to longer drives so the Defense can rest. Plus teams are not scared of the playaction anymore since they have a 3.5 YPC average. So they use the short passing attack much like a running play

[deadstar]

Ouch. Could have had a point if you didnt use the "sacrificing stats for defense" line. I really doubt he cares that much. He just is trying to score on every drive just like every other QB in the league, whether it be by running or passing the ball.

Clayton was just making the point that his stats aren't crazy cause the offense has been super efficient.

[derian2219]

And doesn't the efficiency reflect the play of the QB?

[deadstar]

Yes. But he was referring to stats lately. He has not been this efficient or good the entire year, which is part of the argument everyone else here is making.

[FondestMemory]

it reflects the play of the entire team.

you're talking like manning has nothing working with him, like he's doing it alone. every qb in the league would kill to work with that much talent on offense.

[rcrook]

Does the efficiency of the Vikings offense reflect the play of Jackson and Frerotte? Not necessarily. It reflects the play of AP and the Offensive Line more. It differs depending on the team.

[derian2219]

If the argument is the entire year then Deangelo Williams is out of the discussion as well. Maybe this will be the year a defensive player wins the title.

[batmannj]

he could have used a much better example than the lions. do you really think peyton is sacrificing his stats to give his defense more rest or is he just having a down year?
he was quoting john clayton. no offense, i respect his opinion on the NFL a LOT more than yours.

[LeftWideOpen]

i've yet to see anyone bring up stats to support Peyton as MVP. all i hear is rehashed ESPN hyperbole.

so please, archie and skip, bring something to the table on behalf of Peyton besides your slanted, subjective opinions.

[FondestMemory]

i mean, i understand putting peyton in the discussion. he doesn't crack my top five, but i can see reasons that somebody could disagree.

but to talk about it like he's the run away sure fire winner is ridiculous. i don't remember a season in years where it's been this wide open.

i've yet to see any argument from anybody that makes me want to bump him up my list.

[preppyak]

actually it does. his team was 3-4
His team was 3-4 because they he was not playing well...4 of the first 7 games, he threw for as many or more INT's than he did TD's. His completion percentages ranged in the 50's and a few low 60s. They could't even use their normal rushing plays like the Stretch because he was somehow more immobile than he already is...and as ESPN ANALYSTS NAMED JOHN CLAYTON POINTED OUT, it made their rush offense less effective because a linebacker can read a toss way easier than a handoff

If Peyton Manning hadn't played some very mediocre football in Weeks 1-7, I don't feel like doing the math, but he averaged about 230ish yds and essentially a 1:1 TD/INT ratio, then the Colts might not have needed to go on an 8 game win streak to win the MVP. Do you want a guy who, 30-40% of the season, was on par with a Rex Grossman performance, to be the MVP.

Weeks 1-7, Peyton was discusses as "has his time passed" and "have the Colts passed their prime"...now its Peyton as MVP? He had 3 games (all losses consequently) where he threw multiple INT's...he had 4 games of under 73 passer rating. If anyone wants to make Manning MVP now because of how he "is doing it with no team around him", then he is to blame for failing to prop them up through their 3-4 start in games (Jac, Balt at home, Green bay on the road) that they should have won.

[preppyak]

and a fun little side fact...i'll paraphrase somebody who I respect WAY more than John Clayton...Tony Dungy.

Who does he think should be MVP? James Harrison...not Peyton Manning. The only step beyond that is if Archie or Eli said it

"If I had to vote right now I'd vote for (LB) James Harrison from Pittsburgh," Dungy in an appearance on Sirius satellite radio. "He's just been phenomenal in anchoring a defense that's playing as well as anyone in the league and he does so many things for them."

[batmannj]

His team was 3-4 because they he was not playing well...4 of the first 7 games, he threw for as many or more INT's than he did TD's. His completion percentages ranged in the 50's and a few low 60s. They could't even use their normal rushing plays like the Stretch because he was somehow more immobile than he already is...and as ESPN ANALYSTS NAMED JOHN CLAYTON POINTED OUT, it made their rush offense less effective because a linebacker can read a toss way easier than a handoff

If Peyton Manning hadn't played some very mediocre football in Weeks 1-7, I don't feel like doing the math, but he averaged about 230ish yds and essentially a 1:1 TD/INT ratio, then the Colts might not have needed to go on an 8 game win streak to win the MVP. Do you want a guy who, 30-40% of the season, was on par with a Rex Grossman performance, to be the MVP.

Weeks 1-7, Peyton was discusses as "has his time passed" and "have the Colts passed their prime"...now its Peyton as MVP? He had 3 games (all losses consequently) where he threw multiple INT's...he had 4 games of under 73 passer rating. If anyone wants to make Manning MVP now because of how he "is doing it with no team around him", then he is to blame for failing to prop them up through their 3-4 start in games (Jac, Balt at home, Green bay on the road) that they should have won.
as i pointed out before, his defense was not playing well in those games that you mention, and peyton was still hurt from off season surgery. the offensive line was still partially desimated from injuries, and jeff saturday, who is arguably one of the best offensive lineman in the NFL, was also hurt. yes, early in the season he did not play well, but he has stepped his game up when he has needed to. ps, i could have read the ESPN analysis part without you capitalizing it. I am 20, and can read small print just fine thank you.

also as i said earlier in the thread, i could deal with AP getting MVP honors as well, it does not have to be peyton. i am just arguing peyton, because i find it to be slightly humorous that people who are arguing against peyton or from NE, or in your case VA. maybe a little biased, i dont know. plus, i am a lions fan, so i dont really care who wins the award, i just want to see it go to a deserving player.

[batmannj]

and a fun little side fact...i'll paraphrase somebody who I respect WAY more than John Clayton...Tony Dungy.

Who does he think should be MVP? James Harrison...not Peyton Manning. The only step beyond that is if Archie or Eli said it
you will get no arguement from me that James Harrison is not worthy of the MVP. He has been phenomonal all season.

oh, and really dude? Tony Dungy is not gonna do a radio interview and petition for Peyton Manning for MVP. That is not his style, nor is it what most NFL coaches would do. it's not like college where Mac Brown or Urban Meyer will potition their QB's for Heisman. Coach Dungy has always been a stand up individual who I have immense respect for, and he would not go on the interview and try and get votes for his quarterback.

and the chance of James Harrison winning the award are slim to none. The NFL voters are less inclined to vote for a defensive player because they are a less sexy choice. I am not saying he is not deserving, just that he will not win the award.

and dude, chill out. Just because I disagree with you doesn't make you wrong, I am just trying to argue my side, and say that Mr. Manning deserves a lot more respect than a majority of this thread is giving him.

[batmannj]

i mean, i understand putting peyton in the discussion. he doesn't crack my top five, but i can see reasons that somebody could disagree.

but to talk about it like he's the run away sure fire winner is ridiculous. i don't remember a season in years where it's been this wide open.

i've yet to see any argument from anybody that makes me want to bump him up my list.
not that I am trying to disagree with you, but what is your top 5? if you already posted it in the thread i will check it out.

[batmannj]

i've yet to see anyone bring up stats to support Peyton as MVP. all i hear is rehashed ESPN hyperbole.

so please, archie and skip, bring something to the table on behalf of Peyton besides your slanted, subjective opinions.
slanted? hardly. i am from toledo, and I bleed Detroit Lions Blue. and part of the MVP has to be subjective.

if all we are going to argue is stats, then why not give the award to Andre Johnson. Or if you want slanted, how about Calvin Johnson. CJ has put up over 1,000 yards recieving, and has over 10 TD receptions with constant double teams and on a team that otherwise has no other threat, offensive or defensive.

Andre Johnson has had a few different QB's throw him the ball, and he leads the AFC in receptions and yards. Despite his low TD total, he has been a major factor in all of the Texans games this season and has been a headache for opposing defensive backs.

like i said earlier, please do not call me skip. I have in no way disrespected you this entire thread, I simply ask that you extend me the same courtesy.

and honestly man, you are from boston. so no vote for manning from you is most likely because you are a patriots fan. there is nothing wrong with that, but please, before you call me slanted, please check yourself and make sure that you are not slanted.

[rcrook]

skip, he's not biased because he is from new england. he is just logical.

[FondestMemory]

not that I am trying to disagree with you, but what is your top 5? if you already posted it in the thread i will check it out.

posted top three earlier in the thread, but my top five would probably go:

1. adrian peterson
2. brandon jacobs
3. james harrison
4. michael turner
5. deangelo williams

i don't think it's a qb's year to win the award. brees deserves opoy, and warner deserves a top three finish there. yet i don't feel either of them deserve mvp talk just due to team success.

if you wanna argue for a qb to win it, then yes, peyton would probably be the front runner. but if that's the case, i also think qbs like chad pennington and matt ryan should be in the discussion as well. they don't have the numbers, but it's plain as day that their performance has been crucial to their teams' success.

i'm just not sold on the manning argument. most of the same arguments that can be made for him could be made for philip rivers as well.

[xbrokendownx]

no chad pennington love from anyone? when you think about it the dolphins didnt really add any big name players at all to a team that won 1 game last year. if chad wasnt our QB we might have like 4 wins this year

[derian2219]

I honestly wouldn't mind Pennington one bit. I've had numerous arguments with people that he should not have been cut from the Jets and should at least get comeback player of the year. He easily makes my top 5 for MVP, same with Matt Ryan.

[xbrokendownx]

i dont really even necessarily think he should win it, i just wanted to throw another name out there to get away from the manning debate haha

[derian2219]

Oh I understand completely. But his name should be thrown around in the discussion. Only problem is that if they lose to the Jets, then his great season gets lost in many peoples eyes and that's horrible.

[batmannj]

skip, he's not biased because he is from new england. he is just logical.
well, i do not understand how my opinion is "slanted" and how his is not. like i said, i have no reason to be on the peyton manning bandwagon other than that in my personal opinion, i believe that he is more deserving than most players. if you disagree with me that is fine, but as i continually ask, i would prefer that you not call me skip.

[FondestMemory]

no chad pennington love from anyone? when you think about it the dolphins didnt really add any big name players at all to a team that won 1 game last year. if chad wasnt our QB we might have like 4 wins this year

that's the point i brought up.

the same arguments could be made for manning, ryan, pennington and rivers. i really don't see much a difference between what those have done this year. the numbers aren't all that similar, but the arguments people are making for peyton being mvp could just as easily be used for any of the other three there.

[batmannj]

posted top three earlier in the thread, but my top five would probably go:

1. adrian peterson
2. brandon jacobs
3. james harrison
4. michael turner
5. deangelo williams

i don't think it's a qb's year to win the award. brees deserves opoy, and warner deserves a top three finish there. yet i don't feel either of them deserve mvp talk just due to team success.

if you wanna argue for a qb to win it, then yes, peyton would probably be the front runner. but if that's the case, i also think qbs like chad pennington and matt ryan should be in the discussion as well. they don't have the numbers, but it's plain as day that their performance has been crucial to their teams' success.

i'm just not sold on the manning argument. most of the same arguments that can be made for him could be made for philip rivers as well.
well said, and i totally understand where you are coming from. i do also agree that pennington and ryan each deserve a serious look as well. both of those guys have done a great job dealing with tremendous adversity, and brandon jacobs up there is good too. without him the giants offense is seriously hampered.

and thanks for the respectful posts sir. i like it when people can debate without trying to insult the other person's opinion.

[derian2219]

And my top five would consist of...1. Manning, 2. Rivers, 3. Turner, 4. Pennington, 5. Ryan.

At least I am consistent with everything. Honestly, the MVP is the QB's award for the most part, unless a RB has one of those rare outstanding years.

[FondestMemory]

i could not disagree with that more. i don't understand how it's the qb's award.

[derian2219]

Neither do I, but that's how it has been more often than not a QB wins the award.

[FondestMemory]

here's my biggest problems with the arguments used in support of manning in this thread.

first off, the use of the term 'horrific' was used to describe the colts defense. yet, they're ranked 11th in overall defense. that was countered with calling them middle of the pack. ok, got ya. so 11th is middle of the pack.

if that's the case, what do you consider 15th? 15th as in where the colts rank in total offense. yes, i understand they're top five in passing offense, but total offense ranks lower than their defense. and manning is the general of that offense. it was brought attention to all of the detail that goes into pre-snap with him. so, everybody agrees he's essentially an offensive coordinator under center. ok. would you give an offensive coordinator calling plays for the 15th overall offense coach of the year? if he's going to get all the credit in the world when the entire offense is clicking due to his playcalling, shouldn't he also shoulder blame when it's not? the colts are also 15th in ppg. also middle of the pack. or, 'horrific' as some people would agree.

the other argument is how well he's played down the stretch during the winning streak. eight games is an impressive winning streak, absolutely. let's take a closer look at their wins throughout the season.

they beat the texans in a game where they trailed the entire game. it wasn't until their horrific mediocre defense returned a fumble for a td that the game seemed within reach. and it wasn't until after that same defense forced another turnover that allowed manning to drive down for the go ahead score.

the same defense returned an int for a td in the fourth quarter in a tie game against jacksonville.

it was also that same horrific defense that scored a touchdown against the browns, something the manning lead offense was unable to do. against the browns. the colts put up 10 points against the browns. the horrific mediocre defense put up seven of those. AGAINST THE BROWNS.

in two of their 3 point victories this season, the final score of the game came from an adam vinatieri field goal of 50+ yards.

to me this sounds like a solid overall team. not saying manning hasn't won a few games for them, but it's not like he's won them all. he hasn't had to put the team on his shoulders this year and single-handedly carry them to victories. not at all. he's getting plenty of help. he's having a solid year. the wins are solid, the numbers are solid. but none of them are mind boggingly great.

it's just not a season that screams mvp to me.

[FondestMemory]

Neither do I, but that's how it has been more often than not a QB wins the award.

in the past 10 years it's went to a qb 6 times and an rb 4.

seems pretty even to me.

[LeftWideOpen]

well, i do not understand how my opinion is "slanted" and how his is not. like i said, i have no reason to be on the peyton manning bandwagon other than that in my personal opinion, i believe that he is more deserving than most players. if you disagree with me that is fine, but as i continually ask, i would prefer that you not call me skip.

slanted? hardly. i am from toledo, and I bleed Detroit Lions Blue. and part of the MVP has to be subjective.

if all we are going to argue is stats, then why not give the award to Andre Johnson. Or if you want slanted, how about Calvin Johnson. CJ has put up over 1,000 yards recieving, and has over 10 TD receptions with constant double teams and on a team that otherwise has no other threat, offensive or defensive.

Andre Johnson has had a few different QB's throw him the ball, and he leads the AFC in receptions and yards. Despite his low TD total, he has been a major factor in all of the Texans games this season and has been a headache for opposing defensive backs.

like i said earlier, please do not call me skip. I have in no way disrespected you this entire thread, I simply ask that you extend me the same courtesy.

and honestly man, you are from boston. so no vote for manning from you is most likely because you are a patriots fan. there is nothing wrong with that, but please, before you call me slanted, please check yourself and make sure that you are not slanted.

1) you called my statistical breakdown of Manning "disgusting", so lets not take the high road.

2) you were basically repeating the same points made earlier in the thread by the other guy, which were really rooted in nothing but observation.

3) you claimed the colts defense was terrible, then said it wasn't as good as the panthers, when they are statistically better. again, an argument rooted in nothing besides perception.

3) I think Andre Johnson is actually an MVP candidate and the OPOY, so I would agree with the suggestion of his name.

4) Slanted was the wrong word to use, and I used out of frustration because the argument being made for Peyton made me want to bang my head against the wall. As for being a Pats fan having anything to do with it, that's not the case. I'll happily volunteer that Manning is one of the best QB's of the past 10 years and he's had a number of MVP-caliber seasons .. this just isn't one of them. You don't see me making a case for Matt Cassel.

[LeftWideOpen]

here's my biggest problems with the arguments used in support of manning in this thread.

first off, the use of the term 'horrific' was used to describe the colts defense. yet, they're ranked 11th in overall defense. that was countered with calling them middle of the pack. ok, got ya. so 11th is middle of the pack.

if that's the case, what do you consider 15th? 15th as in where the colts rank in total offense. yes, i understand they're top five in passing offense, but total offense ranks lower than their defense. and manning is the general of that offense. it was brought attention to all of the detail that goes into pre-snap with him. so, everybody agrees he's essentially an offensive coordinator under center. ok. would you give an offensive coordinator calling plays for the 15th overall offense coach of the year? if he's going to get all the credit in the world when the entire offense is clicking due to his playcalling, shouldn't he also shoulder blame when it's not? the colts are also 15th in ppg. also middle of the pack. or, 'horrific' as some people would agree.

the other argument is how well he's played down the stretch during the winning streak. eight games is an impressive winning streak, absolutely. let's take a closer look at their wins throughout the season.

they beat the texans in a game where they trailed the entire game. it wasn't until their horrific mediocre defense returned a fumble for a td that the game seemed within reach. and it wasn't until after that same defense forced another turnover that allowed manning to drive down for the go ahead score.

the same defense returned an int for a td in the fourth quarter in a tie game against jacksonville.

it was also that same horrific defense that scored a touchdown against the browns, something the manning lead offense was unable to do. against the browns. the colts put up 10 points against the browns. the horrific mediocre defense put up seven of those. AGAINST THE BROWNS.

in two of their 3 point victories this season, the final score of the game came from an adam vinatieri field goal of 50+ yards.

to me this sounds like a solid overall team. not saying manning hasn't won a few games for them, but it's not like he's won them all. he hasn't had to put the team on his shoulders this year and single-handedly carry them to victories. not at all. he's getting plenty of help. he's having a solid year. the wins are solid, the numbers are solid. but none of them are mind boggingly great.

it's just not a season that screams mvp to me.

yes, a hundred times over.

[preppyak]

yes, a hundred times over.
agreed...and I made the points for the first half of his season. If the argument is that the 1st half of the season wasn't Peyton's fault, the defense was bad (and that was made as a point), then isn't it the DEFENSE that improved that is winning them games...not Peyton?

The general logic is painful...its tough to even counter with valid points in some spots...beyond that Fondest just put. I have nothing more to point out beyond what already has

[cahrishurr]

ahaha that whole conversation was entertaining

[batmannj]

1) you called my statistical breakdown of Manning "disgusting", so lets not take the high road.

2) you were basically repeating the same points made earlier in the thread by the other guy, which were really rooted in nothing but observation.

3) you claimed the colts defense was terrible, then said it wasn't as good as the panthers, when they are statistically better. again, an argument rooted in nothing besides perception.

3) I think Andre Johnson is actually an MVP candidate and the OPOY, so I would agree with the suggestion of his name.

4) Slanted was the wrong word to use, and I used out of frustration because the argument being made for Peyton made me want to bang my head against the wall. As for being a Pats fan having anything to do with it, that's not the case. I'll happily volunteer that Manning is one of the best QB's of the past 10 years and he's had a number of MVP-caliber seasons .. this just isn't one of them. You don't see me making a case for Matt Cassel.
i called your logic in using the stats disgusting. i did not personally attack you, or disrespect you by calling you a name. i am sorry if there was any confusion.

If you were to argue that Peyton Manning wasn't one of the top QB's of the past 10 years you would be somewhat foolish, no matter where you are from. Maybe this hasn't been his top statistical season, but it may have been his best leadership job of the season.

yes my arguement did not change because that is my arguement. it wouldn't make much sense for me to change how i argue it if i caved the first time that someone challenged me.

i said that the colts defense was worse, and yes statistically they are better than carolina at this point. this is a combination of things. 1) in the early season, the defense did play terrible, i laid out the stats earlier in the thread, and i would gladly post them again if you wish. 2) the colts offensive line was hurt, in combination with the injury to peyton, leading to early in the season the team was not able to sustain drives. since he has been healthy, the colts have gone on a great winning streak. if you say that he should be out of MVP consideration because of his poor play early that is fine. I am not trying to change your opinion, I am just saying that in my opinion he is the MVP. 3) The defense has been playing much better of late, but overall being 11th is not a great defense. 4) the reason why the colts are 30th in rushing attempts is because of the injuries to joeseph addai. dominic rhoads is a good running back in spurts but cannot carry the load. ever since the team has been relying on peyton, the team has been winning games.

[FondestMemory]

i said that the colts defense was worse, and yes statistically they are better than carolina at this point. this is a combination of things. 1) in the early season, the defense did play terrible, i laid out the stats earlier in the thread, and i would gladly post them again if you wish. 2) the colts offensive line was hurt, in combination with the injury to peyton, leading to early in the season the team was not able to sustain drives. since he has been healthy, the colts have gone on a great winning streak. if you say that he should be out of MVP consideration because of his poor play early that is fine. I am not trying to change your opinion, I am just saying that in my opinion he is the MVP. 3) The defense has been playing much better of late, but overall being 11th is not a great defense. 4) the reason why the colts are 30th in rushing attempts is because of the injuries to joeseph addai. dominic rhoads is a good running back in spurts but cannot carry the load. ever since the team has been relying on peyton, the team has been winning games.

...

here's my biggest problems with the arguments used in support of manning in this thread.

first off, the use of the term 'horrific' was used to describe the colts defense. yet, they're ranked 11th in overall defense. that was countered with calling them middle of the pack. ok, got ya. so 11th is middle of the pack.

if that's the case, what do you consider 15th? 15th as in where the colts rank in total offense. yes, i understand they're top five in passing offense, but total offense ranks lower than their defense. and manning is the general of that offense. it was brought attention to all of the detail that goes into pre-snap with him. so, everybody agrees he's essentially an offensive coordinator under center. ok. would you give an offensive coordinator calling plays for the 15th overall offense coach of the year? if he's going to get all the credit in the world when the entire offense is clicking due to his playcalling, shouldn't he also shoulder blame when it's not? the colts are also 15th in ppg. also middle of the pack. or, 'horrific' as some people would agree.

the other argument is how well he's played down the stretch during the winning streak. eight games is an impressive winning streak, absolutely. let's take a closer look at their wins throughout the season.

they beat the texans in a game where they trailed the entire game. it wasn't until their horrific mediocre defense returned a fumble for a td that the game seemed within reach. and it wasn't until after that same defense forced another turnover that allowed manning to drive down for the go ahead score.

the same defense returned an int for a td in the fourth quarter in a tie game against jacksonville.

it was also that same horrific defense that scored a touchdown against the browns, something the manning lead offense was unable to do. against the browns. the colts put up 10 points against the browns. the horrific mediocre defense put up seven of those. AGAINST THE BROWNS.

in two of their 3 point victories this season, the final score of the game came from an adam vinatieri field goal of 50+ yards.

to me this sounds like a solid overall team. not saying manning hasn't won a few games for them, but it's not like he's won them all. he hasn't had to put the team on his shoulders this year and single-handedly carry them to victories. not at all. he's getting plenty of help. he's having a solid year. the wins are solid, the numbers are solid. but none of them are mind boggingly great.

it's just not a season that screams mvp to me.

[batmannj]

...
if you disagree with me thats fine. i am not trying to change opinions, i am simply stating mine.

[Recovery Room]

MVP
1. Peyton Manning
2. Adrian Peterson
3. James Harrison

Offensive POY
1. Adrian Peterson
2. Andre Johnson
3. DeAngelo Williams

Defensive POY
1. Ed Reed
2. Joey Porter
3. James Harrison

Offensive ROY
1. Matt Ryan
2. Chris Johnson
3. Joe Flacco

Defensive ROY
1. Chris Horton
2. Jerrod Mayo
3. Matt Forte

Coach of the Year
1. Mike Smith
2. Tony Sparano
3. John Harbaugh

Comeback Player of the Year
1. Joey Porter
2. Kerry Collins
3. Chad Pennington

[FondestMemory]

drew brees not even in top 3 for opoy?

and i know the dpoy class is weak, but that still doesn't put matt forte in the top three.

[Chris M.]

MVP
1. DeAngelo Williams
2. Michael Turner
3. Peyton Manning

OPOY
1. Drew Brees
2. DeAngelo Williams
3. Kurt Warner

DPOY
1. James Harrison
2. DeMarcus Ware
3. Joey Porter

OROY
1. Matt Ryan
2. Joe Flacco
3. Matt Forte

DROY
1. Jerod Mayo
2. Curtis Lofton
3. Chris Horton

Coach of the Year
1. Mike Smith
2. Tony Sparano
3. John Harbaugh