so you're the eagles...

[mat1419]

what do you do in their place and why?

[xAnothrLostSoul]

you need TO no matter what it takes...he's a one of a kind player

[b e L I E v e]

Trade him to the niners

haha, just playing...i think the eagles stand firm....TO is crazy enough to sit out...but not for long

[mat1419]

my stance, and i'm an eagles fan is to let him sit if he wants. they went just as far with him as without him (he didn't play in the nfc championship game). this is the team right behind the patriots that puts the team above individuals. he did well with that last year, if they cave here it's a step back. i'd rather see them lock westbrook up than TO anyday, you can get another receiver to make plays (not to the degree, but still)...westbrook is one of a kind and invaluable to mcnabbs success and the teams as well.

[chance_4]

do they really need TO? i mean they did make it to the nfc championship like twice without him. so what if the yeah they get him they made it too the super bowl. when they lost he blamed it partly on mcnabb. there are plenty of very talented receivers in the league they could get. i mean why didn't they keep freddy mitchell, nevermind he blew. didn't he thank his hands after a game last season?

[still_life]

You pay the man. It's not like he doesn't deserve it. His Super Bowl performance was worthy enough of a big signing bonus. TO is the reason the Eagles rolled over everyone last year. It wasn't Mitchell (gone), Pinkston (pussy), and Westbrook was able to gain yards because of the defense double covering TO. They need him. Billy McMullen has 4 career catches, Greg Lewis has 23 (TO had a game with 20 before) they have an unproven rookie, pussy Pinkston, and that's it. Without TO, they have no legitimate #2 or #3 receiver, and hardly a good #1. They don't have a highly productive TE either. They have to have TO in the passing game, or McNabb's going to have a shitty season, because Westbrook is not a 1500 yard rusher. Should have went after Shaun Alexander, that way they can forget about tO.

[the rog]

i think that if his desires are too outlandish, let him go. donovan mcnabb is the best QB he is ever going to catch for and if he doesn't realize that, he's stupid. he has a great contract right now and, frankly, mcnabb is better off without him.

do the eagles really need the kind of player who, in the course of negotiating contracts, will try to "out" his teammates and basically call them pussies on national tv?

[agentGumbo]

TO is very good but the eagles have never backed down before and they definitely should not stop now. TO has to learn his place

[afk999]

you dont give in, hes only one year into the contract, if they just stand their ground theyll win this one

[mat1419]

You pay the man. It's not like he doesn't deserve it. His Super Bowl performance was worthy enough of a big signing bonus. TO is the reason the Eagles rolled over everyone last year. It wasn't Mitchell (gone), Pinkston (pussy), and Westbrook was able to gain yards because of the defense double covering TO. They need him. Billy McMullen has 4 career catches, Greg Lewis has 23 (TO had a game with 20 before) they have an unproven rookie, pussy Pinkston, and that's it. Without TO, they have no legitimate #2 or #3 receiver, and hardly a good #1. They don't have a highly productive TE either. They have to have TO in the passing game, or McNabb's going to have a shitty season, because Westbrook is not a 1500 yard rusher. Should have went after Shaun Alexander, that way they can forget about tO.
they might not blow teams out, but they've been the best team in the nfc without TO for years, and he wasn't what won the nfc for them last year, he was hurt. westbrook is good enough that he'll get his yards even with the safeties creeping up because reid designs the best screens in the nfl to get him in space. buckhalter will be back to handle the short yardage so they should be adequate in the run game. lewis is virtually unproven, but has promise. pinkston is a joke. i agree they should have another receiver, but they've done it with no decent receivers in the past. and as far as TE goes, LJ Smith is easily a 60 catch caliber TE, especially when Lewis is gone. McNabb won't be throwing for 400 yards every game, but they'll still march down the field methodically using their TE and RB screens and QB running (he'll have to start doing that again no doubt).

If this was an unproven team, I'd think maybe bend the rules for TO, but this team thrives on great chemistry led by their QB, giving into TO and making him bigger than the rest of the team is counterproductive...it sets them up for falling outs within the locker room and will disrupt the real nucleus of the team. They set a precedent when they let Trotter go, then he realized what he had, came back, and just reupped again at a lower salary than he deserved because he know what was in philly. i think since the team has shown it is capable without TO, and TO doesn't effect the great defense, make him bend to their design or let him sit and waste his prime years.

[WakingTheMisery]

wait it out.

[still_life]

they might not blow teams out, but they've been the best team without TO for years. westbrook is good enough that he'll get his yards even with the safeties creeping up because reid designs the best screens in the nfl to get him in space. buckhalter will be back to handle the short yardage so they should be adequate in the run game. lewis is virtually unproven, but has promise. pinkston is a joke. i agree they should have another receiver, but they've done it with no decent receivers in the past. and as far as TE goes, LJ Smith is easily a 60 catch caliber TE, especially when Lewis is gone. McNabb won't be throwing for 400 yards every game, but they'll still march down the field methodically using their TE and RB screens and QB running (he'll have to start doing that again no doubt).

If this was an unproven team, I'd think maybe bend the rules for TO, but this team thrives on great chemistry led by their QB, giving into TO and making him bigger than the rest of the team is counterproductive...it sets them up for falling outs within the locker room and will disrupt the real nucleus of the team. They set a precedent when they let Trotter go, then he realized what he had, came back, and just reupped again at a lower salary than he deserved because he know what was in philly. i think since the team has shown it is capable without TO, and TO doesn't effect the great defense, make him bend to their design or let him sit and waste his prime years.

They beat their first 5 opponents by 10+ points last year. Then they picked up 4 more wins later that season by 21 or more points. They were rolling because of what TO brings to this offense. The Eagles run game sucks. Buckhalter isn't even that good, and he's injury prone. If their running game was decent, they probably would have won the Super Bowl. Westbrook is like Marshall Faulk, but nowhere near as good as a running back. He's much better lined up as a receiver than in the backfield. And he'll be the only worthwhile receiver there if they don't have TO. The guys they used before TO aren't there anymore. And McNabb was nowhere near as good with them (oh and TO being there allowed for McNabb to rush a lot less than he used to, which was good). Thrash, Mitchell, Staley are gone, and Pinkston has had 5 rather poor seasons, and he's not good at getting in the endzone. This is one of the worst receiving corps in the league without TO. I'm not saying they should give into TO right now, they should wait it out. But if it's September and you still haven't got anything done, then you better sign that man. The NFC won't be as weak as it was last year, when Philly stomped on everyone in their conference.

[mat1419]

i agree that they won't be rolling over teams without TO, but they'll be just as good as they were 2 and 3 years ago when they were able to score enough to win games. losing mitchell is a good thing because it lets lewis try his hand. westbrook is good for 80+ all purpose yards each game. buckhalter's had one big injury so i wouldn't call him prone, and he's an adequate 50 more yards on the ground a game. they'll go back to the running back by commitee like 2 years ago, just with staleys runs being split. yes mcnabb with have to run, and no i don't think that's a good thing, but he does it smart and well, and it will force teams to loosen up allowing the screens to form. they'll have to play back in the same system they did a few years ago and won't be effective scoring wise, but they will be able to control the ball and put up enough points for the defense to win it. but in the long run, keeping the players happy by maintaining the teams ultimate focus on the whole is more important then margin of victory. they're still good enough to get to the super bowl and don't have to compromise to do it, it sents a precedent and will keep the other 52 players focused on the goal.

[still_life]

They'll only be as good as far as their defense takes them. McNabb's numbers without TO are pretty mediocre. And Thrash was always 1st or 2nd in catches for that team in those years, and he's not there anymore. They're going to have to hope that rookie is a stud. Because when it's 3rd and 15, I don't know how the hell they're going to convert it with that depth chart. I think when you've been at the top for so long, you need to do whatever it takes to get over the mountain. TO on one leg was virtually unstoppable in the SB. Imagine if he was healthy. He probably would have broke one of those catches for a TD.

[b e L I E v e]

Well, to side with the arguement, they dont NEED TO..but it would be a hell of a lot better with him...but as i said before, TO will eventually give in, or trade himself some how, hes that crazy

And as for Westbrook....id say 80 percent of the Eagles offence comes from him...the other 19 percent from McNabb running it, and the other one percent comes from the other sucky guys on the offensive

if anyone disagrees with that, tell me now, becuase id LOVE to argue about it...i cant be wrong anyway...

[still_life]

TOTAL OFFENSIVE YARDS: 5618
TOTAL Westbrook yards: 1529

27.2% Oh you were way off

[mat1419]

Well, to side with the arguement, they dont NEED TO..but it would be a hell of a lot better with him...but as i said before, TO will eventually give in, or trade himself some how, hes that crazy

And as for Westbrook....id say 80 percent of the Eagles offence comes from him...the other 19 percent from McNabb running it, and the other one percent comes from the other sucky guys on the offensive

if anyone disagrees with that, tell me now, becuase id LOVE to argue about it...i cant be wrong anyway...
i'll disagree slightly, i think they showed that somewhere like 60 percent actually is westbrook...but McNabb hardly ran at all last year. He used LJ Smith and a mix of short, well designed pass plays to get the ball down field. It will be harder for sure because the defense can pinch down with no deep threat, but he's become a better passer with or without TO, all he needs is 40 catches out of 2 guys not named westbrook and he can have a good year. He will have to move around a lot more this year, but I think he's shown he's more than capable. If he does that, and maintains just solid and consistant passing, he can lead the offense just fine with or without TO.

[b e L I E v e]

TOTAL OFFENSIVE YARDS: 5618
TOTAL Westbrook yards: 1529

27.2% Oh you were way off

i was waiting for that...lol...i actaully checked the stats after i posted that..

but all jokes aside...you mean to tell me half of the time the eagles are on offense Westbrook doesnt get the ball?

You need to remember that is could take 20 runs for Westbrook to get 100 yards...and only 2 50 yard catches for Pinkston to get that same amount

what i meant by 80 percent wasnt yards...it was offensive usage...i think

[still_life]

Todd Pinkston would have a heart attack before he catches a 50 yard bomb.

Ok then, don't shit yourself when you see how close the number still is. Out of 923 offensive plays, Westbrook was involved in at least 250 of them, or 27.1%. Just .1% different. But that's not 100% accurate, because that doesn't account for pass plays that were incomplete to him. But there could only be a max of 461 plays for him, or 49.9%. So you are in fact wrong.

[b e L I E v e]

thats still HALF the plays

so i might have been off wit my sarcasm....but still, HALF the plays from one player?

[mat1419]

to settle it, out of all offensive rushes and completions, westbrook was in on 35%...still a big number considering everything. he caught 4 less balls than TO and had many more rushes, pinkston pulls a few good plays out a year but they are nullified by his inability to be a consistant receiver. there's no doubt that the mvp of the offense is westbrook. he's the variable that teams can't match without opening up the rest of the field.

[still_life]

It's not half, I just put that as the max, because it is. There's no way that every incomplete pass an Eagles QB threw last year was intended for Westbrook. So the number is probably no more than 30%. And that might seem like a lot to you, but I know there are other teams with players that had higher percentages. Because teams with great running backs that are actually good at running it usually get about 350-380 carries a season. That right there is more than what Westbrook did last year.

Quick example

Jets
Offensive plays: 965
Curtis Martin plays (just ones he registered a rush or catch on): 412

42.7%

[b e L I E v e]

All in all, if you take Westbrook off that team, they would barely be able to get in the endzone once a game...twice on a good day

[still_life]

If McNabb can throw 4 TDs on a broken leg, that team could score a TD or two every week.

[mat1419]

If McNabb can throw 4 TDs on a broken leg, that team could score a TD or two every week.
man that was a great game...second only to the next week. koy detmer. 3 quarters of league MVP caliber quarterbacking...

[b e L I E v e]

Ive been wanting to say this FOREVER, but i thought i would get dissed and probably banned from the board, and i just want to say it now

The media gives so much attention to McNabb because hes an African American Quarterback...as is Mike Vick...lets be honest, their not as good as the media says they are....Im not taking anything away from them, they have great careers..but im just saying, as i saw in a recent television show....Mcnabb tends to get more attention because he is of a different race than the average quarterback...

Again, Im not in any way being racist or anything....just restating what i heard on a television show, which i happen to agree with...

I think we are all forgetting, nowadays its not all about the sports...its a form or entertainment, things people can make money off of...

[mat1419]

Ive been wanting to say this FOREVER, but i thought i would get dissed and probably banned from the board, and i just want to say it now

The media gives so much attention to McNabb because hes an African American Quarterback...as is Mike Vick...lets be honest, their not as good as the media says they are....Im not taking anything away from them, they have great careers..but im just saying, as i saw in a recent television show....Mcnabb tends to get more attention because he is of a different race than the average quarterback...

Again, Im not in any way being racist or anything....just restating what i heard on a television show, which i happen to agree with...

I think we are all forgetting, nowadays its not all about the sports...its a form or entertainment, things people can make money off of...
there's a reason rush got canned for that, mcnabb is a damn good quarterback and leader...until TO, who did he have? westbrook just came into his own the past year and a half, but McNabb was able to make the guys around him just good enough to win. he'd run for 7, throw for 5, throw for 6, run for 9...he made that offense good enough 3 years in a row on his own. if peyton had the receivers who couldn't catch and get open like mcnabb, his numbers wouldn't be where they are.

vick is overrated, but it's not because he's black, its because he's exciting to watch and people want him to be as good as they think he should be.

[still_life]

Dan Marino only threw for 61,000 yards in 17 seasons, and his only relevant receivers were Mark Clayton (44th all time receptions) , Mark Duper (39th all time receiving yards), Irving Fryar (played 3 seasons with him, 6th all time in receptions, 8th in yards), and Tony Martin (5 seasons with him, 32nd all time receiving yards). 14 Pro Bowls between the 4 of them. And in that long career, they were really the most successful receivers he had. Some guys just get more than you'd expect out of what's around them. I think Manning is that player, I'm not sure McNabb is.

The NFL seriously needs to hire me as a statistician. I love this stuff, and I'd come up with so much stuff for them. Like look at these interesting facts I just looked up

In Marino's 17 seasons, Miami had a 1000 yard rusher just one time. It was a season where Marino missed 4 games, and the team went 8-8 and missed the playoffs. Just one 1000 yard rusher. Imagine how much better they could have been in the playoffs if they had a good RB. Now I know Marino would change a lot of run plays to passes, but great offenses can still have a 4000 yard passer and 1000 yard rusher (Colts every year).

[mat1419]

Dan Marino only threw for 61,000 yards in 17 seasons, and his only relevant receivers were Mark Clayton (44th all time receptions) , Mark Duper (39th all time receiving yards), Irving Fryar (played 3 seasons with him, 6th all time in receptions, 8th in yards), and Tony Martin (5 seasons with him, 32nd all time receiving yards). 14 Pro Bowls between the 4 of them. And in that long career, they were really the most successful receivers he had. Some guys just get more than you'd expect out of what's around them. I think Manning is that player, I'm not sure McNabb is.

The NFL seriously needs to hire me as a statistician. I love this stuff, and I'd come up with so much stuff for them. Like look at these interesting facts I just looked up

In Marino's 17 seasons, Miami had a 1000 yard rusher just one time. It was a season where Marino missed 4 games, and the team went 8-8 and missed the playoffs. Just one 1000 yard rusher. Imagine how much better they could have been in the playoffs if they had a good RB. Now I know Marino would change a lot of run plays to passes, but great offenses can still have a 4000 yard passer and 1000 yard rusher (Colts every year).
i love dan, and it's true he never had an amazing receiver, but he did always have ones who could at least catch. mcnabb makes his mark in other ways, the scrambling, the creativity, and the leadership. without TO he'll never hit 4000 yards, but he gets his wins in other ways. i think he pretty much maxes out the talent around him and does the rest himself.

[b e L I E v e]

McNabb is not a great QB as all as people think he is...

Yeah, im not saying hes bad...because the guy IS good...but great?...nahh

[mat1419]

McNabb is not a great QB as all as people think he is...

Yeah, im not saying hes bad...because the guy IS good...but great?...nahh
i put him easily as top 5...where he falls in there is debatable

[b e L I E v e]

TOP 5?!?!

Im hoping just this past year...not of all time

if its JUST this past year, i would rank him around 7th....

if all time, i would rank him about 124th

[still_life]

Until proven otherwise, Vick is Kordell Stewart with more speed

[b e L I E v e]

Until proven otherwise, Vick is Kordell Stewart with more speed

well said...except at this time, i think Vick has got more of an edge on his precision passing

[still_life]

Stewart's completion percentage is a little better

[asianxcore]

what do you do in their place and why?
fuck TO, when he left SF it was over for him

[mat1419]

fuck TO, when he left SF it was over for him
ha, yeah he was really racking up the rings in san fran

TOP 5?!?!

Im hoping just this past year...not of all time

if its JUST this past year, i would rank him around 7th....

if all time, i would rank him about 124th
i'm saying currently, i have him top 5...i think he has the athletic skills and the leadership ability in one package

all time...we'll see if he gets some rings before we go praising him with the greats...he's up there as one of the top eagles franchise qb's though

[b e L I E v e]

we'll see if he gets some rings before we go praising him with the greats...he's up there as one of the top eagles franchise qb's though

Even with one or two rings...the greats are a far far way ahead for McNabb...

Although, he is easily one of the best eagles franchise qb's...considering theres only been one or two other good ones...haha

[the rog]

kordell at his peak was worth more to his team than vick, in my opinion.

vick is pretty overrated. mcnabb is underrated.

[still_life]

I agree. Kordell in 97 and 01 was better than any season Vick has had.

[followtheformat]

I live right outside of philly, and if I'm the eagles right now I stick to my strategy of the old. While TO is a great player and they probaly cannot win a championship without him, they have been so successful in the past it's hard to argue. William Fuller, Troy Vincent, Ricky Watters, Duce Staley, Jeremiah Trotter, plus of course the picking of McNabb over Ricky Williams, it's hard to argue with Eagles managment

[b e L I E v e]

I live right outside of philly, and if I'm the eagles right now I stick to my strategy of the old. While TO is a great player and they probaly cannot win a championship without him, they have been so successful in the past it's hard to argue. William Fuller, Troy Vincent, Ricky Watters, Duce Staley, Jeremiah Trotter, plus of course the picking of McNabb over Ricky Williams, it's hard to argue with Eagles managment

i have no problem arguing with the eagles managment

in the past three to four years when they have gotten as far as the conf. finals....i havent seen one new player, with the exception of TO and J. Kearse that have grabbed my attention...

In the situation of keeping the "status quo" they are damn good at it, i will admit, one of the best in the leagues....but in their situation, losing that many in a row...get some new guys on the field, change things up, see what your doing wrong

DO SOMETHING!

haha