There is nothing wrong with saying Christian music sucks

[Nevuk]

Discuss. I'll post my views in the second post to not make my personal argument the centerpiece.

[Nevuk]

People who claim that others are being bigots by stating that a genre of music sucks are mistaken. Christian music does not really refer to the faith of the singers, it rather refers to a group of tropes and sounds that fall under one of the most hegemonic and derivative forms of music out there.
Common lyrical tropes:
Worshiping a being infinitely greater than you
Comparing his majesty to mountains, valleys, etc.
Redemption through grace
Feeling his power in your life and acting in accordance with his plan
Not having free will in general. etc.
Sounds:
Almost always calm and relaxed if generic, and if a kind of offshoot christian- of a genre, generally being tamer than non christian varieties.

Essentially, my largest complaint is that there is no real need to make a kind of music that specifically caters to a faith. What makes Christian music Christian? It's really just a way to make music more appealing to people who feel guilty about betraying traditionalism. Also, the calm sound is rooted in their perceptions of the genre as being about love, and that love should always be peaceful, calm and easy. As someone whose experience with love has been with angry jealous crazy people, and who has liked those experiences I think the people who believe in this kind of oceanic, peaceful love are being wilfully blind to the true nature of emotions.
My complaints have little to do with the religion of the music. Christians have made great music. But attempting to form music that is automatically pigeonholed into a genre will always result in derivative, shitty music (this could be said about most hardcore nowadays, it's not like Christian music is the only guilty genre).

[JustSway]

This post has literally no point to it. All you're saying is "I don't particularly like one genre, here's me trying to sound clever whilst telling you why".

Christian music has some clear patterns etc that let you know it's christian music, but so what? Every genre does this. Thats how genres come to exist.

So really that was totally pointless.

[.:Maxx:.]

The lyrical content of music does not affect whether or not I enjoy listening to it.

I'm an atheist. I think that singing about how bad they want Jesus to save them is retarded. But if it's a good song, its a good song.

[Regards]

I don't really get what you're saying. You mean Christian worship music sucks?

[Nevuk]

This post has literally no point to it. All you're saying is "I don't particularly like one genre, here's me trying to sound clever whilst telling you why".

Christian music has some clear patterns etc that let you know it's christian music, but so what? Every genre does this. Thats how genres come to exist.

So really that was totally pointless.
It's only pointless if you haven't been told dozens of times that people who hate christian music are being close-minded. Since you're from the UK, I doubt you can share in the experience of being raised surrounded by literalist christians. I'm more interested in discussing it.

And I would have no issue with christian music if bands attempted to make music and were than affixed with appellation of Christian, but typically bands go out of their way to have this sound. And yes, it's a problem with other genres too.

[JustSway]

Near as I can figure all he's saying is it sucks because it caters to one specific crowd and he doesn't see why. Although rap music caters to people who want to hear songs about money, bitches and sleeping with bitches (possibly for money) and dance music caters to people who want songs about dancing.

So, yeah. This thread is pointless as shit.

[The Personist]

People who claim that others are being bigots by stating that a genre of music sucks are mistaken. Christian music does not really refer to the faith of the singers, it rather refers to a group of tropes and sounds that fall under one of the most hegemonic and derivative forms of music out there.
Common lyrical tropes:
Worshiping a being infinitely greater than you
Comparing his majesty to mountains, valleys, etc.
Redemption through grace
Feeling his power in your life and acting in accordance with his plan
Not having free will in general. etc.
Sounds:
Almost always calm and relaxed if generic, and if a kind of offshoot christian- of a genre, generally being tamer than non christian varieties.

Essentially, my largest complaint is that there is no real need to make a kind of music that specifically caters to a faith. What makes Christian music Christian? It's really just a way to make music more appealing to people who feel guilty about betraying traditionalism. Also, the calm sound is rooted in their perceptions of the genre as being about love, and that love should always be peaceful, calm and easy. As someone whose experience with love has been with angry jealous crazy people, and who has liked those experiences I think the people who believe in this kind of oceanic, peaceful love are being wilfully blind to the true nature of emotions.
My complaints have little to do with the religion of the music. Christians have made great music. But attempting to form music that is automatically pigeonholed into a genre will always result in derivative, shitty music (this could be said about most hardcore nowadays, it's not like Christian music is the only guilty genre).

Most music that labels itself Christian is music that tells people to like Jesus. That music is bad.

Music in which artists write about and discuss their faith and personal relation to God--PERSONAL--is fine by me. Since it's an expression of personal experience and emotion related to religion, it shouldn't come off as preachy.

CCM is the worst genre in the world. Bands like Anberlin, Underoath, and Relient K aren't CCM at all. Neither is mewithoutYou, and I doubt Thrice fits into that sort of religious genre. These bands talk about faith in ways that are not preachy, and, perhaps with the exception of Underoath, would all deny being Christian bands, but would rather call themselves "bands that are Christian."

[JustSway]

It's only pointless if you haven't been told dozens of times that people who hate christian music are being close-minded. Since you're from the UK, I doubt you can share in the experience of being raised surrounded by literalist christians. I'm more interested in discussing it.

And I would have no issue with christian music if bands attempted to make music and were than affixed with appellation of Christian, but typically bands go out of their way to have this sound. And yes, it's a problem with other genres too.

You're always going to have extremists, sure, if thats what you're getting at. But it doesnt negate the music entirely, sure, its probably sketchy. But the first band that springs to mind whenever I hear "Christian music" is Relient K, which have some very, very clear religious overtones, but they're still a very good band.

[The Personist]

Near as I can figure all he's saying is it sucks because it caters to one specific crowd and he doesn't see why. Although rap music caters to people who want to hear songs about money, bitches and sleeping with bitches (possibly for money) and dance music caters to people who want songs about dancing.

So, yeah. This thread is pointless as shit.

It's nice that you don't appreciate discussion. Makes you look really smart and cool.

[Regards]

So are we talking about the lyrics and the message? I can't really seen how it differs form a punk show where the band stands against a subject and is vocal about it.

[Nevuk]

I don't really get what you're saying. You mean Christian worship music sucks?
Hmm, more that it just seems insulting to declare one type of music Christian, when christianity refers to a ton of different beliefs that don't agree, and that the uniformity of Christian music seems to me to be more of a method for enforcing uniformity in beliefs. I've seen non-demonational christians mock episcopelians and then watched both groups turn around and listen to the same music. That's baffling to me.

edit: And I'm more referring to CCM than others, but I can see the argument being extended further

[x togepi x]

Near as I can figure all he's saying is it sucks because it caters to one specific crowd and he doesn't see why. Although rap music caters to people who want to hear songs about money, bitches and sleeping with bitches (possibly for money) and dance music caters to people who want songs about dancing.

So, yeah. This thread is pointless as shit.

no. he's saying it sucks because it's derivative, and the christian sound is merely a way to make money/generate success moreso than real honest worship music (though he would also laugh at the idea of worship but that's neither here nor there)

[The Personist]

So are we talking about the lyrics and the message? I can't really seen how it differs form a punk show where the band stands against a subject and is vocal about it.

The annoying punk bands who are like "rah rah rah fuck money and shit you're all whores" are as bad as the CCM bands who say "rah rah rah love Jesus or you're going to burn."

[Burn That Shit]

The lyrical content of music does not affect whether or not I enjoy listening to it.

I'm an atheist. I think that singing about how bad they want Jesus to save them is retarded. But if it's a good song, its a good song.

Lyrical content actually DOES make or break the music.

[Regards]

The annoying punk bands who are like "rah rah rah fuck money and shit you're all whores" are as bad as the CCM bands who say "rah rah rah love Jesus or you're going to burn."
So a band shouldn't have a message if they feel strongly about something? All your "To Write Love Her Arms Bands" look pretty silly then.

[JustSway]

It's nice that you don't appreciate discussion. Makes you look really smart and cool.

Totally.

I just don't see the point thats trying to be made. I understand that music caters to a ton of different audiences and clearly theres a very large audience who want songs about how God is super. It doesnt make it any less valid than people who want songs with twelve thousand beatdowns and lyrics about abortions and what not.

Just because its not suited to your tastes doesnt instantly make something bad or void of purpose (The exception to this rule being Millionaires, the worst "band" I've ever heard)

[.:Maxx:.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-NOZU2iPA8

[sargentlgfuad]

punk is against society and the norm.
pop is mainly about girls and guys and sex. /love
rap is about "hard-times".
hip-hop is all about money/violence.
indie sings about... who the hell knows?

[x togepi x]

Totally.

I just don't see the point thats trying to be made. I understand that music caters to a ton of different audiences and clearly theres a very large audience who want songs about how God is super. It doesnt make it any less valid than people who want songs with twelve thousand beatdowns and lyrics about abortions and what not.

Just because its not suited to your tastes doesnt instantly make something bad or void of purpose (The exception to this rule being Millionaires, the worst "band" I've ever heard)

when it's derivative it is

[Nevuk]

Honestly, I probably wouldn't like the panthers if they didn't have the lyrics they did

[Burn That Shit]

punk is against society and the norm.


Wrong.

[Burn That Shit]

rap is about "hard-times".
hip-hop is all about money/violence.


Wrong.

[JustSway]

no. he's saying it sucks because it's derivative, and the christian sound is merely a way to make money/generate success moreso than real honest worship music (though he would also laugh at the idea of worship but that's neither here nor there)

The exact same thing can be said for other types of music. Crunkcore or whatever its called, for instance, is just milking a trend. For every decent, good, honest band there's always going to be a dozen trying to cash in. Why is it any more abhorent in Christian music?

[Hey Kevin]

punk is against society and the norm.
pop is mainly about girls and guys and sex. /love
rap is about "hard-times".
hip-hop is all about money/violence.
indie sings about... who the hell knows?

queercore is about god

[Regards]

Hmm, more that it just seems insulting to declare one type of music Christian, when christianity refers to a ton of different beliefs that don't agree, and that the uniformity of Christian music seems to me to be more of a method for enforcing uniformity in beliefs. I've seen non-demonational christians mock episcopelians and then watched both groups turn around and listen to the same music. That's baffling to me.

edit: And I'm more referring to CCM than others, but I can see the argument being extended further
I guess then that sounds more like a theological issue than a musical issue. And for the enforcing beliefs I don't see how that differs from a band going out and supporting a candidate for the election and being vocal about it.

[x togepi x]

Honestly, I probably wouldn't like the panthers if they didn't have the lyrics they did

their music was boooooring

[The Personist]

So a band shouldn't have a message if they feel strongly about something? All your "To Write Love Her Arms Bands" look pretty silly then.

They should if they feel strongly. But they should ideally handle it in a personal way, not in a preachy way. IE, this is what God and faith mean to me, not, "GO BELIEVE IN JESUS FAITH WILL SAVE YOUR ASS"

[sargentlgfuad]

queercore is about god
what the hell is queercore?

[Regards]

no. he's saying it sucks because it's derivative, and the christian sound is merely a way to make money/generate success moreso than real honest worship music (though he would also laugh at the idea of worship but that's neither here nor there)
And that's a very general statement. There are Christian bands out there not doing it for the money.

[JustSway]

when it's derivative it is

I pretty much covered this in the post I just quoted (which may have been you, actually haha) but this is something that happens in all genres. I dont see why Christian music is being held accountable above others though.

[Hey Kevin]

They should if they feel strongly. But they should ideally handle it in a personal way, not in a preachy way. IE, this is what God and faith mean to me, not, "GO BELIEVE IN JESUS FAITH WILL SAVE YOUR ASS"

yet you are saying bands should do this and do that

who gives a fuck what people say
fuck zealots and fuck athiests
fuck capitalists and fuck anarchists

[x togepi x]

I pretty much covered this in the post I just quoted (which may have been you, actually haha) but this is something that happens in all genres. I dont see why Christian music is being held accountable above others though.

because when someone says "i don't like generic street punk bands because they all sound the same" you don't hear how closeminded and bigoted you are. this happens when you say christian music sucks.

[Regards]

They should if they feel strongly. But they should ideally handle it in a personal way, not in a preachy way. IE, this is what God and faith mean to me, not, "GO BELIEVE IN JESUS FAITH WILL SAVE YOUR ASS"
So you're going to say that if you found what you thought the meaning of life was, and all surrounding it, you wouldn't actively try to show people that? If you look at it through the eyes of a Christian then it makes sense. If it bothers you, then talk to them personally and maybe challenge that ideal.

[Hey Kevin]

what the hell is queercore?

GOD

[sargentlgfuad]

since many of you are throwing out random "lyrics" that you say christian music puts out there. here are some lyrics from as cities burn:

"Cause I was a pharisee,
I never saw my need for grace;
Then your love came to me
stood next to mine, and I saw that I was poor."

"son, this is it, this is it
you're gonna sink for your sins
unless grace be the wind
son, this is it, this is it
we're all sinking for our sins
unless grace be the wind

forget about being honest
forget about being passionate
wear that smile like you feel it
even when you don't
forget about being honest
forget about being passionate
i think they forgot about Jesus
seeking us out"

"Is your love really Love?
Is my love really Love?
I think our love isn't Love,
Unless it's Love to the end.

Is your god really God?
Is my god really God?
I think our god isn't God,
If he fits inside our heads."

[JustSway]

because when someone says "i don't like generic street punk bands because they all sound the same" you don't hear how closeminded and bigoted you are. this happens when you say christian music sucks.

This happens all the time from any "metal" kid that gets told this by anyone. Ive even been told it by several wiggers when I said I didn't like rap music. Sooo yeah.

[sargentlgfuad]

GOD
i do not understand you.

[Hey Kevin]

the Widow was a good song but oh my god those lyrics you posted are hilarious!

[Regards]

i do not understand you.
This is the internet, it's called a troll. You're not supposed to;-)

[Hey Kevin]

This is the internet, it's called a troll. You're not supposed to;-)

you're no fun

[x togepi x]

This happens all the time from any "metal" kid that gets told this by anyone. Ive even been told it by several wiggers when I said I didn't like rap music. Sooo yeah.

you are missing the point. those people who listen to rap aren't implying that you're discriminating against them like many christians do when you say you don't like christian music.

[The Personist]

So you're going to say that if you found what you thought the meaning of life was, and all surrounding it, you wouldn't actively try to show people that? If you look at it through the eyes of a Christian then it makes sense. If it bothers you, then talk to them personally and maybe challenge that ideal.

I could try; doesn't mean they'd buy it.

I'm not going to listen to someone tell me how great God is if they're doing it in an objective, derogatory way--ie, "our god is an awesome god."

if someone is talking about faith in ap ersonal way, relating that meaning of life as it applies to theirs--it's more accessible. A lot of Underoath's lyrics are very memorable to me because they talk about loss, fear, loneliness, love, and hope, all universal themes in human experience. The fact that they connect to these themes by way of faith and Christ doesn't mean I can't feel the pain they feel--like the fear of being left alone (a BIG theme on their most recent two albums).

[Nevuk]

their music was boooooring
Yeah. Things are Strange had some interesting sections and so did their EP, but the rest of it sounds like... purposefully bad lol

[sargentlgfuad]

the Widow was a good song but oh my god those lyrics you posted are hilarious!
how?

[JustSway]

you are missing the point. those people who listen to rap aren't implying that you're discriminating against them like many christians do when you say you don't like christian music.

I get that whilst I may not come from a country that has any sort of "bible belt" (which Im assuming is where most of this happens, right?) but it's impossible to say that Christians are the only people who play the discrimination card when you call out their shitty music. I guarantee it will happen to you every time you're in London and refuse to buy a CD from a group of dudes claiming to be rappers the second you step out of a shop.

[x togepi x]

Yeah. Things are Strange had some interesting sections and so did their EP, but the rest of it sounds like... purposefully bad lol

which is why they made Failures be a band.

[The Personist]

since many of you are throwing out random "lyrics" that you say christian music puts out there. here are some lyrics from as cities burn:

"Cause I was a pharisee,
I never saw my need for grace;
Then your love came to me
stood next to mine, and I saw that I was poor."

"son, this is it, this is it
you're gonna sink for your sins
unless grace be the wind
son, this is it, this is it
we're all sinking for our sins
unless grace be the wind

forget about being honest
forget about being passionate
wear that smile like you feel it
even when you don't
forget about being honest
forget about being passionate
i think they forgot about Jesus
seeking us out"

"Is your love really Love?
Is my love really Love?
I think our love isn't Love,
Unless it's Love to the end.

Is your god really God?
Is my god really God?
I think our god isn't God,
If he fits inside our heads."

Some Underoath for ya:

Wake up! Wake up! My God!
This is not a test!
And it's not too late to come clean
Get it off your chest
So steady your hand before your face and concentrate
There's got to be some stable ground
Left to walk on

So tear another page from the book
Are you asleep or just alone?
Clear this room from your lungs

Pull yourself together
Pull yourself together, man
Pull yourself together
Pull yourself together

On your back,
You're sleeping in a bed of shame
Let the light breath some new life into this room
It's what keeps you coming back
Made up of insatiable taste
Bury your head in your hands
And sing into yourself

Oh!

Just what are you so afraid of?
What are you so afraid of?
You're staring truth in the face
So come on down
What are you so afraid of?

You're busy living now, aren't you?
You're busy making vows
You're coming unglued

Time is shorter than you know
I know the light is blinding to the naked eye
So why don't you take steps away from being alone?
I swear, it's not too late for you

It's all worth reaching for
It's all worth reaching for
It's all worth reaching for
The hand to pull you out
It's all worth reaching for
The hand to pull you out

Wake up! Wake up! Wake up!
And step outside your box
Wake up!


It's more of an indirect discussion of faith.

[Nevuk]

This happens all the time from any "metal" kid that gets told this by anyone. Ive even been told it by several wiggers when I said I didn't like rap music. Sooo yeah.
Yep. It's not an issue exclusive to the christian genre, I've had more experience with the issues of it with CCM than I have with hardcore or anything else (There are almost no bands here that are not CCM, not from my home area)

[xhandgunxheart]

Some Underoath for ya:

Wake up! Wake up! My God!
This is not a test!
And it's not too late to come clean
Get it off your chest
So steady your hand before your face and concentrate
There's got to be some stable ground
Left to walk on

So tear another page from the book
Are you asleep or just alone?
Clear this room from your lungs

Pull yourself together
Pull yourself together, man
Pull yourself together
Pull yourself together

On your back,
You're sleeping in a bed of shame
Let the light breath some new life into this room
It's what keeps you coming back
Made up of insatiable taste
Bury your head in your hands
And sing into yourself

Oh!

Just what are you so afraid of?
What are you so afraid of?
You're staring truth in the face
So come on down
What are you so afraid of?

You're busy living now, aren't you?
You're busy making vows
You're coming unglued

Time is shorter than you know
I know the light is blinding to the naked eye
So why don't you take steps away from being alone?
I swear, it's not too late for you

It's all worth reaching for
It's all worth reaching for
It's all worth reaching for
The hand to pull you out
It's all worth reaching for
The hand to pull you out

Wake up! Wake up! Wake up!
And step outside your box
Wake up!


It's more of an indirect discussion of faith.
amazing amazing amazing lyrics.

[Nevuk]

I get that whilst I may not come from a country that has any sort of "bible belt" (which Im assuming is where most of this happens, right?) but it's impossible to say that Christians are the only people who play the discrimination card when you call out their shitty music. I guarantee it will happen to you every time you're in London and refuse to buy a CD from a group of dudes claiming to be rappers the second you step out of a shop.
A lot of modern hardcore has a similar issue. Especially sXe hardcore.
which is why they made Failures be a band.
Hmm? I hadn't heard about this.

[x togepi x]

failures sounds like a more pissed off version of some girls.

[The Personist]

A lot of modern hardcore has a similar issue. Especially sXe hardcore.

Hmm? I hadn't heard about this.

The only sxe hardcore I like is The International Superheroes Of Hardcore, and it's because they're a total joke.

[Nevuk]

I might not care about this topic at all, or at least not have been filled with my current vehemence were I not currently sleeping with a girl who loves CCM music.

[Regards]

if someone is talking about faith in ap ersonal way, relating that meaning of life as it applies to theirs--it's more accessible. A lot of Underoath's lyrics are very memorable to me because they talk about loss, fear, loneliness, love, and hope, all universal themes in human experience. The fact that they connect to these themes by way of faith and Christ doesn't mean I can't feel the pain they feel--like the fear of being left alone (a BIG theme on their most recent two albums).
That's a more personal form of enjoying lyrics. If that's what you like to take out of lyrics, then more power to you for finding bands that sing about it. Just because you're more emotionally attached to a certain form of lyrics doesn't mean that lyrics singing about the opposite might not strike a chord with someone else.
I could try; doesn't mean they'd buy it.
That runs both ways ;-)


I'm not going to listen to someone tell me how great God is if they're doing it in an objective, derogatory way--ie, "our god is an awesome god."
I can see from how a non-christian stand point that would sound pretty arrogant, but once again look at it from their perspective. I never understood how people took worship music as derogatory.

[JustSway]

Yep. It's not an issue exclusive to the christian genre, I've had more experience with the issues of it with CCM than I have with hardcore or anything else (There are almost no bands here that are not CCM, not from my home area)

Yeah, thats exactly my point. I appreciate that the issue is probably concentrated among CCM bands where you're from, but it doesnt stop there being shitty bands everywhere and shitty attitudes about music, too. There's nothing stopping me enjoying a song about god/faith/christianity provided it's written well. The content of the song is not what bothers me, or what the songs about. Its just how its written, played and presented. I mean "Every Breath You Take" by The Police is about stalking someone, yet it doesnt stop it being one of the most played songs at a Wedding. Its not the content, its the quality.

[Nevuk]

failures sounds like a more pissed off version of some girls.
Some girls seemed tame to me anyways

[sargentlgfuad]

amazing amazing amazing lyrics.
x2

[Hey Kevin]

failures sounds like a more pissed off version of some girls.

http://www.myspace.com/dasoathdasoath
or just like Das Oath
which is not a bad thing!
their next record will probably kick total ass

[JustSway]

A lot of modern hardcore has a similar issue. Especially sXe hardcore.



Definatley.
I've been at shows where I've seen X'd up bros knock kids out just for not being sXe, though. So the genre has more than a handfull of issues.

[Nevuk]

Yeah, thats exactly my point. I appreciate that the issue is probably concentrated among CCM bands where you're from, but it doesnt stop there being shitty bands everywhere and shitty attitudes about music, too. There's nothing stopping me enjoying a song about god/faith/christianity provided it's written well. The content of the song is not what bothers me, or what the songs about. Its just how its written, played and presented. I mean "Every Breath You Take" by The Police is about stalking someone, yet it doesnt stop it being one of the most played songs at a Wedding. Its not the content, its the quality.
And Champagne Champagne has songs about rape that are great, I know what you're getting at. Mostly I'm just attacking one specific viewpoint, so it's a fairly narrow topic. My issue is that there is nothing wrong with writing off the entire genre of CCM as uniformly terrible, because of what the genre itself entails.

[Nevuk]

I like das oath. Do any of you have a link to failures' myspace or something?

[theguy77]

OMGZ serch funkshun theirs already a controvserial thred!!1!

no but to disagree with the main premise of your argument would be pretty ignorant.

[Hey Kevin]

I like das oath. Do any of you have a link to failures' myspace or something?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3169/3097710866_7b518be2d2.jpg?v=0

[The Personist]

OMGZ serch funkshun theirs already a controvserial thred!!1!

no but to disagree with the main premise of your argument would be pretty ignorant.

Elaborate plz.