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apex
07/17/05, 10:58 AM
Finally. Now I know that if I happen to have a gay child I can send him off to camp instead of keeping him locked up in a basement. Thank God, now I can rest easier.



Gay Teenager Stirs a Storm
Rollin Riggs for The New York Times
By ALEX WILLIAMS
Published: July 17, 2005

MEMPHIS

IT was the sort of confession that a decade ago might have been scribbled in a teenager's diary, then quietly tucked away in a drawer: "Somewhat recently," wrote a boy who identified himself only as Zach, 16, from Tennessee, on his personal Web page, "I told my parents I was gay." He noted, "This didn't go over very well," and "They tell me that there is something psychologically wrong with me, and they 'raised me wrong.' "

But what grabbed the attention of Zach's friends and subsequently of both gay activists and fundamentalist Christians around the world who came across the entry, made on May 29, was not the intimacy of the confession. Teenagers have been outing themselves online for years, and many of Zach's friends already knew he was gay. It was another sentence in the Web log: "Today, my mother, father and I had a very long 'talk' in my room, where they let me know I am to apply for a fundamentalist Christian program for gays."

"It's like boot camp," Zach added in a dispatch the next day. "If I do come out straight, I'll be so mentally unstable and depressed it won't matter."

The camp in question, Refuge, is a youth program of Love in Action International, a group in Memphis that runs a religion-based program intended to change the sexual orientation of gay men and women. Often called reparative or conversion therapy, such programs took hold in fundamentalist Christian circles in the 1970's, when mainstream psychiatric organizations overturned previous designations of homosexuality as a mental disorder, and gained ground rapidly from the late 90's. Programs like Love in Action have always been controversial, but Zach's blog entries have brought wide attention to a less-known aspect of them, their application to teenagers.

Although Zach wrote only a handful of entries about the Refuge program, all posted before he arrived there in the Memphis suburbs on June 6, his words have been forwarded on the Internet over and over, inspiring online debates, news articles, sidewalk protests and an investigation into Love in Action by the Tennessee Department of Children's Services in response to a child abuse allegation. The investigation was dropped when the allegation proved unfounded, a spokeswoman for the agency said.

To some, Zach, whose family name is not disclosed on his blog and has not appeared in news accounts, is the embodiment of gay adolescent vulnerability, pulled away from friends who accepted him by adults who do not. To others he is a boy whose confused and formative sexual identity is being exploited by gay political activists.

In his last blog entry before beginning the program, at 2:33 a.m. on June 4, Zach wrote, "I pray this blows over," adding that if his parents caught him online he'd be in trouble. He described arguments he had been having with his parents, his mother in particular. "I can't take this," his post reads. "No one can. I'm not a suicidal person. I think it's stupid, really. But I can't help it - no I'm not going to commit suicide - all I can think about is killing my mother and myself. It's so horrible."

The Rev. John J. Smid, the executive director of Love in Action, declined to discuss the details of Zach's experience, citing the program's confidentiality rules. In an interview early this month at his headquarters, a weathered 1960's A-frame building, which was until recently a vacant Episcopal Church, Mr. Smid explained that teenage participants in Refuge are forbidden to speak with anyone the program does not approve of. Requests made through Mr. Smid to interview Zach's parents were declined.

Founded in California in 1973, Love in Action moved to Memphis 11 years ago. It is one of 120 programs nationwide listed by Exodus International, which bills itself as the largest information and referral network for what is known among fundamentalist Christians as the "ex-gay" movement. In 2003 Love in Action introduced the first structured program specifically for teenagers, 24 of whom have participated, Mr. Smid said. The initial two weeks costs $2,000, and many participants stay six weeks more, as Zach has.

The goal of the program, said Mr. Smid, who said he was once gay but now renounces homosexual behavior, is not necessarily to turn gays into practicing heterosexuals, but to "put guardrails" on their sexual impulses.

"In my life I've been out of homosexuality for over 20 years, and for me it's really a nonissue," Mr. Smid said.

"I may see a man and say, he's handsome, he's attractive, and it might touch a part of me that is different from someone else," he said. "But it's really not an issue. Gosh, I've been married for 16 years and faithful in my marriage in every respect. I mean I don't think I could white-knuckle this ride for that long."

Mr. Smid first learned that one of his teenage participants was a cause célèbre when protesters appeared outside his headquarters for several days in early June, carrying signs saying, "This is child abuse" and "Jesus is no excuse for hate."

He was bombarded by phone calls from reporters, he said, as well as by 100 e-mail messages a day from as far as Norway. Zach's writings, which appeared on his page on www.MySpace.com, were publicized by one of his online acquaintances, E. J. Friedman, a Memphis musician and writer, who read Zach's May 29 blog entry, "The World Coming to an Abrupt - Stop."

Mr. Friedman, 35, was disturbed by what he read and fired off an instant message. "I said: 'You should run away from home. There are people who will help you,' " Mr. Friedman recalled. "He said: 'I can't do that. I want to have my childhood. If this is what I have to go through to have it, then I will.' "

Mr. Friedman posted an angry message about Zach's impending stay at Refuge on his own blog. Mr. Friedman's friends picked up on the story and started spreading it on blogs of their own. Soon a local filmmaker, Morgan Jon Fox, who had met Zach through mutual acquaintances, joined with others to start a group called ***** Action Coalition, which organized the protests at Love in Action.

"We wanted to show support," said Mr. Fox, 26, who directed a fictional film about gay teenagers in 2003, shot at White Station High School in Memphis, where Zach is a student. "Then it kind of blew up."

Links to Zach's site bounced around the country. Mr. Friedman's Web page had so much traffic, "it blew my bandwidth," he said. Mr. Smid, too, was inundated with Internet traffic, much of it outraged at the attempts to change Zach's sexual orientation.

"All of a sudden, 80,000 Internet hits later on our Web site, the world has decided that he should be freed," Mr. Smid said. "Maybe he didn't ask for this. Maybe he doesn't really have the personality that really is going to be able to deal with this. And they talk about our 'abuse' of him."

The program at Love in Action has parallels to 12-step recovery programs. Participants, referred to as clients, study the Bible, meet with counselors and keep a "moral inventory," a journal in which they detail their struggle with same-sex temptation over the years, which they read at emotionally raw group meetings, former clients say.

Excessive jewelry or stylish clothing from labels like Calvin Klein and Tommy Hilfiger are forbidden, and so is watching television, listening to secular music (even Bach) and reading unapproved books or magazines.

"It's like checking into prison," said Brandon Tidwell, 29, who completed the adult program in 2002 but eventually rejected its teachings, reconciling his Christian beliefs with being gay.

Physical contact among clients other than a handshake is forbidden, and so is "campy" talk or behavior, according to program rules that Zach posted on his blog before he began at Refuge. Occasionally, recalled Jeff Harwood, 41, a Love in Action graduate who still considers himself gay, some participants would mock the mandatory football games.

"You could get away with maybe one limp-wristed pass before another client would catch you," he said, seated on a tattered sofa in a funky cafe called Java Cabana in the trendy midtown district of Memphis.

Because teenagers, unlike adult clients, return home at night, parents are asked to help keep them away from television and, more important, a computer. Zach has not updated his blog since entering the program.

For Mr. Smid and his supporters, offering Love in Action to teenagers is vital to combat what they see as a growing tolerance of homosexuality among young people. "We just really believe that the resounding message for teenagers in our culture is, practice whatever you want, have sex however, whenever and with whoever you want," he said. "I very deeply believe that is harmful. I think exploring sexuality can lay a teenager up for numerous lifelong issues."

Critics of programs that seek to change sexual orientation say the programs themselves can open a person to lifelong problems, including guilt, shame and even suicidal impulses. The stakes are higher for adolescents, who are already wrestling with deep questions of identity and sexuality, mental-health experts say.

"Their identities are still in flux," said Dr. Jack Drescher, the chairman of the committee on gay, lesbian and bisexual issues of the American Psychiatric Association, which in 2000 formally rejected regimens like reparative or conversion therapy as scientifically unproven. "One serious risk for the parent to consider is that most of the people who undergo these treatments don't change. That means that most people who go through these experiences often come out feeling worse than when they went in."

Two weeks ago the Tennessee Department of Health sent a letter to Love in Action, saying it was suspected of offering therapeutic services for which it was not licensed, a department spokeswoman said. Mr. Smid insisted in the interview that his program is a spiritual, not a counseling, center, and he is removing references to therapy from its Web site.

He said he does not track his success rate. Mr. Harwood, who graduated from the adult program in 1999, said that of 11 fellow former clients he has kept track of, eight once again consider themselves gay.

Although critics say such programs threaten the adolescent psyche, at least one teenager who considers himself a successful graduate does not agree. "In my experience people who struggle with their sexuality are more mature in general," Ben Marshall, 18, said. He recounted being in turmoil, growing up gay in a conservative Christian household in Mobile, Ala.

In 2004 his parents sent him to Refuge. "I went to Memphis kicking and screaming," he said. "I had grown to hate the church for the militant message it gave off toward homosexuality."

While enrolled he spent days listening to stories of the pain that homosexuality had caused clients and their families. Slowly, he said, his attitude changed. He ended up choosing to continue in Love in Action's adult program for nine months. While the program has a "high rate of failure," he said "there are enough successes to know I'm not alone."

But even success comes only through continuing struggle. Although he plans to date women in the future, Mr. Marshall said, he is avoiding any romantic relationships for the time being. "In all honesty, I'm just trying to figure out how to deal normally with men before I start to deal with women," he said.

Zach's parents did not reply to a request for comment for this article left on their answering machine. Last week his father, speaking to the Christian Broadcasting Network, said: "We felt good about Zach coming here. To let him see for himself the destructive lifestyle, what he has to face in the future."

In Zach's case there is no indication he was particularly upset about his sexual identity. Although his high school is in a Bible belt city, the student body is fairly tolerant of homosexual classmates, some students said, particularly those who, like Zach, are not conspicuous about their orientation.

"Stereotype me, if you dare," was the motto Zach chose for his blog, where he listed "Edward Scissorhands" and "Girl, Interrupted" as his favorite movies and Brandon Flowers, the lead singer of the alternative rock band the Killers, as the person he would most like to meet.

While Zach, as his blog recounted, only recently came out to his parents, many of his friends had known he was gay for more than a year, one classmate said. Zach openly identified himself as gay on his blog, which links to 213 friends' blogs listed in a Friend Space box on the site.

Zach is due to leave the program next week. His June 4 message expressed thanks for the more than 1,700 messages on his page, many voicing support. "Don't worry," he wrote. "I'll get through this. They've promised me things will get better, whether this program does anything or not. Let's hope they're not lying."



nytimes article (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/17/fashion/sundaystyles/17ZACH.html?pagewanted=1)

theESCO
07/17/05, 01:03 PM
I posted a similar thread a a little over a week ago talking about the camp. It sounds like a crazy fuckin' place.

http://www.absolutepunk.net/showthread.php?t=78146

punkpixie
07/17/05, 01:32 PM
This makes me sick to my stomach.

I just hope he meets a nice boy while he is in there.

The_Crowing
07/17/05, 06:31 PM
This really distrubs me.

FOBcareemo
07/17/05, 06:43 PM
This makes me sick to my stomach.

I just hope he meets a nice boy while he is in there.


he he that would be fuckin awesome dont get me fuckin started on how wrong the right is most times

WasteMyTime
07/17/05, 07:39 PM
God Bless America

Reiver
07/19/05, 08:39 PM
i was just going to post about this, i think its absolutely insane that the department of children and families or whatever in tennesse doesnt see anything wrong with that place... its pretty much common sense now that sexual orientation isnt a choice... its like sending black kids to a camp, trying to get em to turn white...

Cal Smith
07/19/05, 09:07 PM
i was just going to post about this, i think its absolutely insane that the department of children and families or whatever in tennesse doesnt see anything wrong with that place... its pretty much common sense now that sexual orientation isnt a choice... its like sending black kids to a camp, trying to get em to turn white...

I dont think the science community has actually determined if it is or not, so I'd saying that it's "common sense" it a mischaracterization. People are also pre-disposed too being alcoholics but they are treated?

theESCO
07/19/05, 09:18 PM
Alcoholism can kill you. I fail to see the comparison.

cuetheflames
07/19/05, 10:54 PM
yeah dude that shit is def fucked up. i cant beleive they actually have programs like that.

thats like taking some black guy into a camp and being like.. NO BITCH YOUR WHITE.

it doesnt make sense.

Jason Tate
07/20/05, 12:57 AM
People are also pre-disposed too being alcoholics but they are treated?

Alcholism is abuse, plain and simple. Having sex with the same gender is not.

Alex Djaferis
07/20/05, 01:28 AM
that is really, really uncool.

Lueda Alia
07/20/05, 04:08 AM
Alcoholism can kill you. I fail to see the comparison.
Seriously. I hate it when people compare homosexuality to other things because 99.99% of the time, it's being compared to things that are actually HARMFUL.

punkpixie
07/20/05, 04:38 AM
yeah dude that shit is def fucked up. i cant beleive they actually have programs like that.

thats like taking some black guy into a camp and being like.. NO BITCH YOUR WHITE.

it doesnt make sense.

hahaha you know what's funny? You saying that this is fucked up and wrong after insluting me by saying: 'your a homosexual. I hope your children are retarded'

ahahahaha.

Alex Djaferis
07/20/05, 06:20 AM
hahaha you know what's funny? You saying that this is fucked up and wrong after insluting me by saying: 'your a homosexual. I hope your children are retarded'

ahahahaha.

hah. owned.

Mercy Medical
07/20/05, 06:24 AM
hahaha you know what's funny? You saying that this is fucked up and wrong after insluting me by saying: 'your a homosexual. I hope your children are retarded'

ahahahaha.
hahahaha

radiofriendly
07/20/05, 06:40 AM
Alcholism is abuse, plain and simple. Having sex with the same gender is not.

i would think it's safe to say that some might find their homosexuality as an addiction or abuse they would like to have treated. im not saying that what the parents are doing is cool. it's not. i guess its their right until he's independent, but i don't necessarily agree with it. but there's no need to blame an institution that helps people who seek it. not that that is what you are saying, it's just my opinion. i think regardless it would be unfair to understate what his parents must feel to some extent, even if we are to assume that they're just 'right wing religous fanatics', it's a hard thing to hear from your child, if you're used to it the other way around. just like the kid himself said he had to adjust to feeling normally around guys, i think the parents deserve the same latitude. right? im glad to see that he was at least feeling more optimistic about his life at the end of the article.

...its pretty much common sense now that sexual orientation isnt a choice...its like sending black kids to a camp, trying to get em to turn white...

not in the least. im not going to pretend that i have a great wealth of knowledge about homosexuality, but that statement is just plain bogus. i would actually think that a great deal of homosexuals would have experienced some kind of physical touch with opposite sex before even considering that they were gay. to compare someone changing their sexual orientation(which has happened through this institution as well as other forms of counseling-even times through one's own self discovery) to changing race(which has never happened...with the rare exception of Michael Jackson*joke*) is pretty shallow.

Mercy Medical
07/20/05, 06:50 AM
not in the least. im not going to pretend that i have a great wealth of knowledge about homosexuality, but that statement is just plain bogus. i would actually think that a great deal of homosexuals would have experienced some kind of physical touch with opposite sex before even considering that they were gay. to compare someone changing their sexual orientation(which has happened through this institution as well as other forms of counseling-even times through one's own self discovery) to changing race(which has never happened...with the rare exception of Michael Jackson*joke*) is pretty shallow.It isn't a choice, you can't help who you have feelings for and if it was a choice, why would anyone choose to have a lifestyle that basically the rest of the world frowned upon?

The only choice that occurs is deciding to act on the feelings you may have for someone of the opposite sex. No one just up and chooses one day that they're going to be gay.

radiofriendly
07/20/05, 07:08 AM
It isn't a choice, you can't help who you have feelings for and if it was a choice, why would anyone choose to have a lifestyle that basically the rest of the world frowned upon?

The only choice that occurs is deciding to act on the feelings you may have for someone of the opposite sex. No one just up and chooses one day that they're going to be gay.

so is it coincidence that more and more people are homosexual as it has become more socially acceptable in this country? there could've been that many closet gays. i don't know. im not sure i understand your logic. im saying that from what i read, there are those that say their orientation depended greatly on their environment. im certainly not saying that's how it is with everyone, but there is certainly something to be said for statements like this.

im not saying i know. im saying there's a great deal more to be observed. plenty say that homosexuality can also be condusive to the atmosphere you choose to live in. i guess after this point, the conversation tends to drift into diety and religion, so i stop here, but i do understand what your saying. just thought id add my observations for thought, and to confirm that there should definitely be a distinction between race and orientation. the gentlemen who founded this institution can be evidence to support that. one who no longer has feelings for the same sex. his choice(so in essence, was his orientation his choice?). why? who knows, but there are many cases of such.

Cal Smith
07/20/05, 07:09 AM
Alcoholism can kill you. I fail to see the comparison.

The comparison is if a select person or family see's it as being wrong. Not you or me. The reason why you fell to see the comparison is because your jetting your own personal opinion into the comparison. Look at both sides though.............

If the Davidson family think it's wrong for their son John to be gay, than they will easily see the comparison. John also might think it's wrong and see the comparison. On the other hand if they don't see homosexuality as being wrong then they wouldn't see the comparison.

Thing I was getting at was simply because someone might be born with a predisposition for something does not make that predispostion right..................like alcoholism.

Mercy Medical
07/20/05, 07:14 AM
so is it coincidence that more and more people are homosexual as it has become more socially acceptable in this country? there could've been that many closet gays. i don't know. im not sure i understand your logic. im saying that from what i read, there are those that say their orientation depended greatly on their environment. im certainly not saying that's how it is with everyone, but there is certainly something to be said for statements like this.

im not saying i know. im saying there's a great deal more to be observed. plenty say that homosexuality can also be condusive to the atmosphere you choose to live in. i guess after this point, the conversation tends to drift into diety and religion, so i stop here, but i do understand what your saying. just thought id add my observations for thought, and to confirm that there should definitely be a distinction between race and orientation. the gentlemen who founded this institution can be evidence to support that. one who no longer has feelings for the same sex. his choice(so in essence, was his orientation his choice?). why? who knows, but there are many cases of such.
I will believe it is a choice for those individuals to finally come out and feel socially accepted, but that initially feeling of having those feelings for someone of the opposite sex or wanting to act on those feelings is not a choice. I don't know if I'm exactly explaining myself correctly. I just believe that the choice happens when you decide to act on those feelings, but that initially feeling of being sexually attracted to someone of the same sex is not a choice. You can't help or choose to be sexually attracted to anyone, whether you're straight or gay. I'm sure straight people don't walk around and say "I want to be attracted to that person." When you feel strongly enough about someone, you can't help that fact. Who in their right mind should give or take away your right to love who you want to love?

Cal Smith
07/20/05, 07:20 AM
It isn't a choice, you can't help who you have feelings for and if it was a choice, why would anyone choose to have a lifestyle that basically the rest of the world frowned upon?

The only choice that occurs is deciding to act on the feelings you may have for someone of the opposite sex. No one just up and chooses one day that they're going to be gay.

In my own personal opinion I think people are born with a higher likely hood of being homosexual. I've seen smaller children who don't know the idea of sex act gay. You can look at them and almost know they're gay (the kid of Who's the Boss).

On the other hand I think it's the individuals choice to act upon these feelings. Much like it's a heterosexuals choice to act upon their feelings for someone else. From a religious standpoint there is no difference in a straight person acting upon their feelings for another sexualy, or a homosexual acting upon their feelings for someone. Both would be wrong, eventhough their actions are coming from natural desires.

radiofriendly
07/20/05, 07:20 AM
The comparison is if a select person or family see's it as being wrong. Not you or me. The reason why you fell to see the comparison is because your jetting your own personal opinion into the comparison. Look at both sides though.............

If the Davidson family think it's wrong for their son John to be gay, than they will easily see the comparison. John also might think it's wrong and see the comparison. On the other hand if they don't see homosexuality as being wrong then they wouldn't see the comparison.

Thing I was getting at was simply because someone might be born with a predisposition for something does not make that predispostion right..................like alcoholism.

have people not also died from AIDS related illness as a result of homosexual intercourse? im surprised that no one else has mentioned that this alone is reason for any loving parent to be concerned about a childs decision to be gay. im sure there are instances where parents can adjust in the given circumstance, but still have completely seperate concerns for their child's welfare in a lifestyle that has some consequences. once again though, im not saying that this is the case. AIDS doesn't discriminate orientation or gender, but chances skyrocket and ways to protect decrease with homosexuality. im just saying there's a lot to be considered here.

punkpixie
07/20/05, 07:21 AM
I will believe it is a choice for those individuals to finally come out and feel socially accepted, but that initially feeling of having those feelings for someone of the opposite sex or wanting to act on those feelings is not a choice. I don't know if I'm exactly explaining myself correctly. I just believe that the choice happens when you decide to act on those feelings, but that initially feeling of being sexually attracted to someone of the same sex is not a choice. You can't help or choose to be sexually attracted to anyone, whether you're straight or gay. I'm sure straight people don't walk around and say "I want to be attracted to that person." When you feel strongly enough about someone, you can't help that fact. Who in their right mind should give or take away your right to love who you want to love?

Agreed. I've said I'm gay, but I haven't even done anything with someone of the same sex, however this doesn't change the fact that I know I want to, and that I have no desire to be with someone of the opposite sex. I don't have to act on the feeling to confirm that fact. Just like straight people alwyas know they are straight, they don't say 'oh yeah I'm straight but I won't know fully until I kiss someone of the opposite sex'. You are born with those straight feelings, just like I was born with these gay ones, I remember them right from when I was little.

Mercy Medical
07/20/05, 07:22 AM
In my own personal opinion I think people are born with a higher likely hood of being homosexual. I've seen smaller children who don't know the idea of sex act gay. You can look at them and almost know they're gay (the kid of Who's the Boss).

On the other hand I think it's the individuals choice to act upon these feelings. Much like it's a heterosexuals choice to act upon their feelings for someone else. From a religious standpoint there is no difference in a straight person acting upon their feelings for another sexualy, or a homosexual acting upon their feelings for someone. Both would be wrong, eventhough their actions are coming from natural desires.
I think you're pretty much saying what I was trying to say.

radiofriendly
07/20/05, 07:37 AM
oh, okay. understood.

allelish
07/20/05, 09:56 AM
Agreed. I've said I'm gay, but I haven't even done anything with someone of the same sex, however this doesn't change the fact that I know I want to, and that I have no desire to be with someone of the opposite sex. I don't have to act on the feeling to confirm that fact. Just like straight people alwyas know they are straight, they don't say 'oh yeah I'm straight but I won't know fully until I kiss someone of the opposite sex'. You are born with those straight feelings, just like I was born with these gay ones, I remember them right from when I was little.
I dunno...i think you want me pretty bad.

burnburnburn
07/20/05, 09:59 AM
have people not also died from AIDS related illness as a result of homosexual intercourse? im surprised that no one else has mentioned that this alone is reason for any loving parent to be concerned about a childs decision to be gay. im sure there are instances where parents can adjust in the given circumstance, but still have completely seperate concerns for their child's welfare in a lifestyle that has some consequences. once again though, im not saying that this is the case. AIDS doesn't discriminate orientation or gender, but chances skyrocket and ways to protect decrease with homosexuality. im just saying there's a lot to be considered here.
So heterosexual people don't get diseases from sex?

Intresting.

theESCO
07/20/05, 10:19 AM
have people not also died from AIDS related illness as a result of homosexual intercourse? im surprised that no one else has mentioned that this alone is reason for any loving parent to be concerned about a childs decision to be gay. im sure there are instances where parents can adjust in the given circumstance, but still have completely seperate concerns for their child's welfare in a lifestyle that has some consequences. once again though, im not saying that this is the case. AIDS doesn't discriminate orientation or gender, but chances skyrocket and ways to protect decrease with homosexuality. im just saying there's a lot to be considered here.
Chances skyrocket when your black too.

cuetheflames
07/20/05, 10:40 AM
hahaha you know what's funny? You saying that this is fucked up and wrong after insluting me by saying: 'your a homosexual. I hope your children are retarded'

ahahahaha.

umm i dont think i said anything was wrong with being homosexual.. i just said that you were.

fuck ass.

theESCO
07/20/05, 11:29 AM
fuck ass.
What's a fuck ass?

MidniteVulture
07/20/05, 11:55 AM
I mean, it's completely fucked up, but obviously he's sort of stuck in this situation. When he comes out, he's still going to be gay, and his parents are just going to have to accept it and treat him however they decide to. I think if anything, it will make him stronger in his convictions and more proud of who he is, and will be able to accept himself better knowing that he came out of a terrible situation and stayed true to who he is.

Mercy Medical
07/20/05, 11:57 AM
umm i dont think i said anything was wrong with being homosexual.. i just said that you were.

fuck ass.
Wouldn't "I hope your children are retarded" constitute there being something wrong with being a homosexual?

Ya know, you're a little prick and about to become one of the more hated individuals on this website.

punkpixie
07/20/05, 02:25 PM
umm i dont think i said anything was wrong with being homosexual.. i just said that you were.

fuck ass.

You gave me negative scene points, which would suggest you don't like the idea.


Fuckhouse.

radiofriendly
07/20/05, 02:37 PM
So heterosexual people don't get diseases from sex?

Intresting.

please refer to the same quote of mine you used, when i said aids doesn't discriminate against gender or orientation. i was simply making the observation that your chances increase in cases of homosexuals, and they also increase in cases of race as well. i was never denying any of this. it should all be cause for concern and caution.

dmodex
07/21/05, 08:15 AM
put Jesus infront of any bad thing and people will not touch it, "JESUS CHILD ABUSE CAMP" < well can't do anything about that because it's jesus's camp and we may all go to hell> just a perfect example of stupied people who use religon to get what they want, I dont have a problem with jesus or god really just people who use it to spread hate

A picasso blue
07/21/05, 01:49 PM
I dont think the science community has actually determined if it is or not, so I'd saying that it's "common sense" it a mischaracterization. People are also pre-disposed too being alcoholics but they are treated?

Alcoholism is treated because it leads to a destructive lifestlye that can harm you and the ones around you that you love. that's how these christians think of homosexuality. and from what i see, so do you

macius
07/21/05, 08:41 PM
What's the link to his myspace?

Indie Bracelet
07/21/05, 10:15 PM
I support the Free Zach campaign!

What's a fuck ass?
Yay Donnie Darko!

Sureshot182
07/22/05, 08:56 AM
sickening.

open mind
07/22/05, 02:02 PM
Alcholism is abuse, plain and simple. Having sex with the same gender is not.
..........unless your sold to bubba for a pack of kools and a bag of popcorn, then tossed up among his homies........

Cal Smith
07/22/05, 03:23 PM
you seriously can't tell a kid is gay by looking at him. kids don't have any real sexual attraction until they hit puberty right? and besides, are you talking about behavior? like..I'm a 16 yr. old guy and I cry pretty easily..does that mean I'm homosexual?

You might not think you can, I do. I'm not saying I can everyone, I'm simply saying from my own personal experience growing up you can look at how younger kids act 4th, 5th graders and see very different characteristics that we associate with homosexuals. I'm thinking of 5 people in particular that I know and it turns out 4 out of the 5 are gay.

I'm not saying it's a perfect science or anything, but denying it's their seems to me almost denying the obvious.

A picasso blue
07/22/05, 03:32 PM
Ya know, you're a little prick and about to become one of the more hated individuals on this website.

haha. actually, i've been watching this guy since he came here and at first i thought hm..he's trying to be funny but it's pathetic. but now im almost certain he's just an idiot

You might not think you can, I do. I'm not saying I can everyone, I'm simply saying from my own personal experience growing up you can look at how younger kids act 4th, 5th graders and see very different characteristics that we associate with homosexuals. I'm thinking of 5 people in particular that I know and it turns out 4 out of the 5 are gay.

I'm not saying it's a perfect science or anything, but denying it's their seems to me almost denying the obvious.

wait what is your point though? I think homosexuality is pre-determined in genes, but you can't come to the realization until you've reached puberty. but anyway...it's foolish to think someone could be "cured" of homosexuality if it is to be thought of as an illness. and alcholism may also have its beginnings in genetics...but it's not enough to compare it with homosexuality

Cal Smith
07/22/05, 03:41 PM
wait what is your point though? I think homosexuality is pre-determined in genes, but you can't come to the realization until you've reached puberty. but anyway...it's foolish to think someone could be "cured" of homosexuality if it is to be thought of as an illness.

Would your opinion change if someone who was a homosexual became heterosexual?

and alcholism may also have its beginnings in genetics...but it's not enough to compare it with homosexuality

How do you know that is "not enough"?

youcomebeforeyo
07/24/05, 11:35 PM
Can someone post the myspace link of his profile?

punklet2101
07/25/05, 03:31 AM
Urgh wow. I'm Christian but I and many of my friends just cringe at the idea of a camp like that... that's just messed up.

Alex Djaferis
07/25/05, 03:36 AM
Urgh wow. I'm Christian but I and many of my friends just cringe at the idea of a camp like that... that's just messed up.

its taking it way too far. :(

Brit_Ben
07/27/05, 05:06 PM
Thats fucked, you are who you are, not who people want you to be.