I got beef with shaq

[b e L I E v e]

i always wanted to say that...haha...anyway

My arguement here is about the so-called ''greatest player of all time''....Ive made the arguement in another post, but i figure i start a thread to see what you guys think about my opinion

Shaq...where to start? Well, let me say this...he has no real "skill"...I dont think ive ever seen the guy hit a shot from outside the paint...my grandma shoots better free throws than he does...and every time he gets on camera he always acts like a wise ass

So why does he get so successful? Well, lets take a look...Last time i checked, shaq weighed just under a billion pounds...and every other person in the league looks like a fly on his shoulder...so all he needs to do is get his big ass body in there and dunk or lay it up...no skill envolved, just pure strength... And the regs obviously love him on offence, even though he doesnt make the FTs...

Now for defence...let me double check one more time...yeah, okay, still a billion pounds...so that means, the only thing thats getting through him is Mario Andretti on his freakin race car...so its not that hard to raise a hand to block a shot...or in his case...stand still so another guy cant get through...

So, before you call him one of the top 10 of all time...think about it...hes easily one of the top 100 players...but not ten...in any aspect...

I have no problem with him being called the most dominant...but no way in hell is he the greatest

(i hope this doesnt show up on ESPN tomorrow)...haha

[asianxcore]

ive never heard him be called that

[b e L I E v e]

well he has...whether youve heard it or not...

[Fullcollapse3k]

The guy's one of the most overrated players in all of sports. He puts up the numbers he does because no one can guard him. Who can? The guy's like 7'1" and 330 lbs. You just feed him inside and watch him take over. That doesn't equate to great basketball skill, that equates to you being a force due to your size.

He's a damn fine passer, though. I'll give him all the credit in the world there.

[Andy]

You could fit the population of a 3rd world country in his left shoe.

[mat1419]

i'm not sure i buy your arguement...do i think he's the greatest...probably not even top ten, but you can't fault a guy for his athletic ability. there are a lot of big guys in the world, a lot of 7 foot guys even, but he's able to put it together and dominate (or was) on the floor. to take away from what he does because he's so big is like saying jordan or dr. j were only able to dominate because they could jump. granted those two developed their games to include more skills later in their career, but shaq has as well. the man can't shoot a three, but his foul shooting is better, he's a great passer, and his post game has evolved into more than just turn and dunk (which he can still do just fine).

[CallMeChief]

The guy's one of the most overrated players in all of sports. He puts up the numbers he does because no one can guard him. Who can? The guy's like 7'1" and 330 lbs. You just feed him inside and watch him take over. That doesn't equate to great basketball skill, that equates to you being a force due to your size.

He's a damn fine passer, though. I'll give him all the credit in the world there.

thats exactly what ive been saying for a long time...no one agrees with it though. and yes, he is an incredible passer, and if nothing else he's got great hands, doesn't turn the ball over a lot, except when a referee has the balls to call charging or some offensive foul on him.

[b e L I E v e]

the man can't shoot a three, but his foul shooting is better, he's a great passer, and his post game has evolved into more than just turn and dunk (which he can still do just fine).

oh yeah, i forgot to check the stat that said shaqs FT shooting was up from 1 percent to 2 percent

give me a break...he sucks at shooting anything beyond the paint...and he is a good passer, i give him that...but the only reason he is a good passer is because he draws sometimes a tripple team, which gives an open shot for anyone beyond the arc...hence his passing abilities...

[mat1419]

you just made two solid arguments FOR shaq...his passing and the fact that he draws triple teams...who cares that he can't shoot outside...honestly, what coach would even want him shooting threes. how can you fault a guy because he takes advantage of his physical ability?

[SkaBum14]

But he's also a phenomenal actor/rapper. He gots mad skillz.

[ddizio]

But he's also a phenomenal actor/rapper. He gots mad skillz.

haha yea, his appearance in Kazaam as a "rappin' genie-with-an-attitude" (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000068QPU.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)

...and also, dont forget his albums, some of them entitled "shaq-fu: da return" and "shaq diesel"

[CallMeChief]

But he's also a phenomenal actor/rapper. He gots mad skillz.

HAHAHA i completely forgot about that...i knew there had to be some reason he was always voted onto the all star team...his performance in kazaam won him a vote onto the all star team in my heart...

[radiofriendly]

one would think when im talking about someone who gets to the paint, puts up big numbers, plays great defense, dominates every court he plays on, wins mulitple championships, can't be defended, can't be guarded, im talking about a top 50 player, maybe a top 10, but when i say Shaq, it's automatically null and void? no way.

let's talk about how a man that big lasts more than ten seasons, and plays the minutes that he does. let's talk about the dominance and skill he still shows after shedding all that weight to play in miami. the only reason there's nobody that can guard him, is because there's nobody else that big that plays like him. everyone who argues that shaq is not at least a top 50 player sounds like the little kid that says "hey, that's not fair" it's still takes skill to throw down a dunk on a double team, and be that big a fellow.

it still takes skill to bump up against ben wallace or Yao Ming, turn throw a hook or a layup, most of the time with another man on you. i understand where you coming from, but i think the only reason shaq gets beef is because he's unstoppable. it's typical for people to try and cut down what he's worth, but when the season's done, the other greatest players in the league couldn't stop Shaquille Oneal. As much as i hate and loath to see him win for the same reasons you think he's overrated, i think that dominance is what wins games and defines greatness

[b e L I E v e]

i think that dominance is what wins games and defines greatness

i dont think you read my thread right....

i said he is the most dominate player in the league..hell, the most dominant that ever played in the league...im just arguing that there is no way shaq is the most skillful player in the league

By far, Tracy McGrady, Kevin Garnett, AI, Alonzo Mourning, as well as others, have ten times as much skill, minus the body weight factor...

Speaking of Zo, in my opinion, he is the perfect example of what shaq would be, minus about a million pounds....

Mourning is pretty good at the in range jumper, still dominates in the paint, is a friggen awesome defence player, and is still doing it at about 100 years in the league...(as is Mutumbo)

[radiofriendly]

i dont think you read my thread right....

i said he is the most dominate player in the league..hell, the most dominant that ever played in the league...im just arguing that there is no way shaq is the most skillful player in the league

By far, Tracy McGrady, Kevin Garnett, AI, Alonzo Mourning, as well as others, have ten times as much skill, minus the body weight factor...

Speaking of Zo, in my opinion, he is the perfect example of what shaq would be, minus about a million pounds....

Mourning is pretty good at the in range jumper, still dominates in the paint, is a friggen awesome defence player, and is still doing it at about 100 years in the league...(as is Mutumbo)

right. but i have an entire post above that line. there's no comparing players like that to shaq. sure they have skill, but shaq has skills that people like mcgrady don't. it's different kinds of skill. you can't stick any man shaq's size in the nba and expect him to put up shaq numbers. that's essentially what you are trying to say, though: all size, little skill. shaq is extremely athletic and mobile and can certainly make shots under pressure, and he gets just as much coverage as any other good center or PF in the league. and there's certainly ways to stop him. and people have as well. or else he would be winning every championship.

i just think it's the same logic you could use against a great point guard who can utilize his height disadvantage and penetrate the paint. i don't know though. i think all we differ on is that shaq has no skill, and there's not much more i can say concerning that. i just think if shaq wasn't one of a kind with his combination of skill and size, people would've found somebody to stop him by now.

[b e L I E v e]

i just think it's the same logic you could use against a great point guard who can utilize his height disadvantage and penetrate the paint. i don't know though. i think all we differ on is that shaq has no skill, and there's not much more i can say concerning that. i just think if shaq wasn't one of a kind with his combination of skill and size, people would've found somebody to stop him by now.

its not everyday you find a 7 2 foot guy that weighs like 300+ pounds and has a shoe size of 32+....thats kind of why no one has matched up to shaq...sure there was yao...but he has no weight....KG? not a center...Wallace?...ah, there we go...a match for shaq, and it proved this post season...hes got an amazing in range jumper, an outstanding defence player all around with steals, blocks, and taking charges...AND puts up the numbers

[mat1419]

passing is a skill, posting up is a skill, setting up other players is a skill...can he hang with AI in a dribbling contest..no, but what's the point of even comparing people like that? he may not have the same skills as mcgrady or KG, but they don't have the ones he has either. It's apples and oranges anyway.

[Trainsaw]

I've heard him referred to as "One of the greatest" but i don't think anyone would pinpoint him as the greatest esp w/ Jordan still alive and only retiring a few years ago. Shaq is cool in my book he paid for George Mikan's funeral when his family couldn't afford it and that's a pretty stand up thing to do.

[marrost]

its not everyday you find a 7 2 foot guy that weighs like 300+ pounds and has a shoe size of 32+....thats kind of why no one has matched up to shaq...sure there was yao...but he has no weight....KG? not a center...Wallace?...ah, there we go...a match for shaq, and it proved this post season...hes got an amazing in range jumper, an outstanding defence player all around with steals, blocks, and taking charges...AND puts up the numbersYou forgot to mention that Wallace's game on offense is shit. It's a big deal when he gets 12 points.

[radiofriendly]

I've heard him referred to as "One of the greatest" but i don't think anyone would pinpoint him as the greatest esp w/ Jordan still alive and only retiring a few years ago. Shaq is cool in my book he paid for George Mikan's funeral when his family couldn't afford it and that's a pretty stand up thing to do.

wow, i didn't know that. awesome. i always heard that he was actually a fantastic guy off the court, and that he tries to keep an on court persona.

[b e L I E v e]

You forgot to mention that Wallace's game on offense is shit. It's a big deal when he gets 12 points.

and i believe u forgot to mention that wallace dominated shaq in the eastern conference game, where, i believe, Detriot kicked miami;s ass

its not always points, its how you play the game as a whole

[The Don]

Last time i checked, shaq weighed just under a billion pounds

Dude, you're way off ... Shaq only weighs 325 pounds.

But seriously, Yao Ming is 7'6, 310 pounds and he can't do the things Shaq does, so give the Diesel some credit. He's more than just a hulk.

And Detroit wouldn't have beaten Miami if Dwayne Wade would have fed Shaq the ball at the end of the game. That was unbelievable.

[marrost]

and i believe u forgot to mention that wallace dominated shaq in the eastern conference game, where, i believe, Detriot kicked miami;s ass

its not always points, its how you play the game as a whole
Shaq was coming off an injury, and you say he was dominated? Wallace only scored over ten points in one of those games. Shaq scored 20+ in 5 of them. Shaq had 14 blocks, Wallace had 10 in the series. The only domination I see was from Shaq. Him being large should bring no negativity to the fact that he can play the game. He is not overrated.

Shaq plays the game as a whole better than that shithead Ben Wallace and any coach will tell you the same thing.

Also, lay off him for the free throws. Relative to size, it would be like you shooting a tennis ball into something not much bigger. Not too easy, huh?

[Susan Sarandon]

Shaq was coming off an injury, and you say he was dominated? Wallace only scored over ten points in one of those games. Shaq scored 20+ in 5 of them. Shaq had 14 blocks, Wallace had 10 in the series. The only domination I see was from Shaq. Him being large should bring no negativity to the fact that he can play the game. He is not overrated.

Shaq plays the game as a whole better than that shithead Ben Wallace and any coach will tell you the same thing.

Also, lay off him for the free throws. Relative to size, it would be like you shooting a tennis ball into something not much bigger. Not too easy, huh?
Way to not even mention I wrote a sweet as fuck rap about Shaq last night, gayyyy.

[marrost]

Way to not even mention I wrote a sweet as fuck rap about Shaq last night, gayyyy.
Haha you are the best.

[b e L I E v e]

Shaq was coming off an injury, and you say he was dominated? Wallace only scored over ten points in one of those games. Shaq scored 20+ in 5 of them. Shaq had 14 blocks, Wallace had 10 in the series. The only domination I see was from Shaq. Him being large should bring no negativity to the fact that he can play the game. He is not overrated.

Shaq plays the game as a whole better than that shithead Ben Wallace and any coach will tell you the same thing.

Also, lay off him for the free throws. Relative to size, it would be like you shooting a tennis ball into something not much bigger. Not too easy, huh?

dont give me that "his leg hurt" shit...if he really wanted to win, he could have...everyone knows damn well Miami should have won that series, and they didnt

And you always keep comparing the major stats that make Shaq better...how about steals? charges taken? turnovers forced?....i didnt think so...you could score zero points a game and still be the difference maker by playing defence...and defence isnt just blocking...

And as for the free throw thing, I honestly dont care what his excuse is for free throws, there are pleanty other big guys who can do it in the league, he doesnt get a handicapt ...

[radiofriendly]

dont give me that "his leg hurt" shit...if he really wanted to win, he could have...everyone knows damn well Miami should have won that series, and they didnt

And you always keep comparing the major stats that make Shaq better...how about steals? charges taken? turnovers forced?....i didnt think so...you could score zero points a game and still be the difference maker by playing defence...and defence isnt just blocking...

And as for the free throw thing, I honestly dont care what his excuse is for free throws, there are pleanty other big guys who can do it in the league, he doesnt get a handicapt ...

shaq could score zero points and still stop any of the players you mentioned. Tim Duncan can't make free throws either. some can. some can't. get over it. they both have skills elsewhere. the man was hurt in the postseason. he's one of the most competitive in the league(it doens't take much to realize that). he doesn't miss games. some can argue he shouldn't have played the games that he did. give the guy a little latitude

[Scott Weber]

i always wanted to say that...haha...anyway

My arguement here is about the so-called ''greatest player of all time''....Ive made the arguement in another post, but i figure i start a thread to see what you guys think about my opinion

Shaq...where to start? Well, let me say this...he has no real "skill"...I dont think ive ever seen the guy hit a shot from outside the paint...my grandma shoots better free throws than he does...and every time he gets on camera he always acts like a wise ass

So why does he get so successful? Well, lets take a look...Last time i checked, shaq weighed just under a billion pounds...and every other person in the league looks like a fly on his shoulder...so all he needs to do is get his big ass body in there and dunk or lay it up...no skill envolved, just pure strength... And the regs obviously love him on offence, even though he doesnt make the FTs...

Now for defence...let me double check one more time...yeah, okay, still a billion pounds...so that means, the only thing thats getting through him is Mario Andretti on his freakin race car...so its not that hard to raise a hand to block a shot...or in his case...stand still so another guy cant get through...

So, before you call him one of the top 10 of all time...think about it...hes easily one of the top 100 players...but not ten...in any aspect...

I have no problem with him being called the most dominant...but no way in hell is he the greatest

(i hope this doesnt show up on ESPN tomorrow)...haha
Only a person who knows nothing about basketball would discredit what Shaq does. Yes, he's huge. Yes, nobody can stop him. He has a thick body, he's incredibly ripped (he works his ass off to be that strong) so he can throw down in any situation. For a man his size, he has extremely amazing post awareness. He has a soft touch and a very good mini hook shot. Within 7 feet of the basket, there's NEVER been anybody who is more dominant than shaq. And it's not just because he's big. He is very skilled, he has great post moves, he does a great job getting himself post position, he's a fantastic offensive rebounder because of his awareness around the hoop, and he's a great teammate. There's much more to Shaq than just the obvious...the man is an oustanding passer for a big man. He's an incredible defender, he has fantastic hands, and he's a very smart player. He times his jumps very well, and as a result he gets more rebounds and blocked shots than most big men. Also...the guy is a winner. Straight up. He's taken teams to championships his entire career, when he was in Orlando (i think, at least conference finals), when he was in LA (Kobe is selfish, he's not a team player, he can't win without Shaq and never will), and now in Miami he's hooked up with a great team and made them a huge contender again.

Look, there are plenty of huge, strong guys in this league, but none of them put of the numbers Shaq does. So don't tell me he doesn't have any skill. That's bullshit. I'd say he's one of the top 20 players of all time, and possibly top 10. You cannot argue with numbers and wins. The man is flat out one of the best post players in the NBA, ever.

dont give me that "his leg hurt" shit...if he really wanted to win, he could have...everyone knows damn well Miami should have won that series, and they didnt

And you always keep comparing the major stats that make Shaq better...how about steals? charges taken? turnovers forced?....i didnt think so...you could score zero points a game and still be the difference maker by playing defence...and defence isnt just blocking...

And as for the free throw thing, I honestly dont care what his excuse is for free throws, there are pleanty other big guys who can do it in the league, he doesnt get a handicapt ...
jesus christ, you have to be one of the most moronic people I've ever seen post, do you know anything about the game of basketball?

[Caleb Cattivera]

i'm not a huge shaq fan either, but i'm not going to say he isnt one of the most dominant players of all time. he's proved himself to be a great player and a force in the leauge. thus this is where i break out my stat sheets and compare him to other centers of his time.

Shaq - 26.7 ppg 12 rpg 3 apg 2.5 bpg 580 fg%

Mourning - 19.4 ppg 9.40 rpg 1.4 apg 3 bpg 523 fg%

David Robinson - 21.1 ppg 10 rpg 2.5 apg 3 bpg 518 fg%

Hakeem Olajuwon - 21.8 ppg 11 rpg 2.5 apg 3 bpg 512 fg%

Patrick Ewing - 21 ppg 9.8 rpg 2 apg 2.5 bpg 504 fg%

look at all of these stats. who's numbers stick out more than anyones? shaq. you mentioned something about mourning and mutumbo being old, maybe you dont realize that mourning and oneal were drafted in the same year, and mutumbo one year before them. so age isn't a factor. you obviously hate shaq for some other reason, maybe he molested you or something, i don't know. but you're arguement is irrelevant. shaq was drafted in 1992 and in 1996, he was voted one of the 50 greatest players of all time. after four years he was already considered one of the greatest players of all time. shaq will go down in history as one of the most dominant players to ever play the game.

[Goodbye Forever]

If Shaq has little or no talent and is only great because of his size, then why didn't Oliver Miller become one of the great basketball players of our generation?

[Scott Weber]

If Shaq has little or not talent and iis only great because of his size, then why didn't Oliver Miller become one of the great basketball players of our generation?
Haha, i was totally thinking about him as an example earlier. Him and Tractor Traylor.

[Fullcollapse3k]

i'm not a huge shaq fan either, but i'm not going to say he isnt one of the most dominant players of all time.

It should be pretty obvious he's one of the most dominant players of all-time. The guy's game is still overrated, but no one can discredit his dominance over the years.

[Scott Weber]

It should be pretty obvious he's one of the most dominant players of all-time. The guy's game is still overrated, but no one can discredit his dominance over the years.
His game isn't overrated. He gets the job done. He's a leader on the court and in the locker room. He has some of the best hands in the game. His awareness is out of this world. Just...read my previous post, I'm not gonna type it all out again.

[Caleb Cattivera]

His game isn't overrated. He gets the job done. He's a leader on the court and in the locker room. He has some of the best hands in the game. His awareness is out of this world. Just...read my previous post, I'm not gonna type it all out again.

word. wheres the kid who started this post?

[b e L I E v e]

im right here...

It should be pretty obvious he's one of the most dominant players of all-time. The guy's game is still overrated, but no one can discredit his dominance over the years.

I never discredited his dominance...as you can see in countless posts i stated over and over i was never taking away his dominance...he IS the most dominant player of all time, period.

However, he is no way shape or form the best at his position

Whoever listed the stats...they dont just end at points, rebounds, passes, FG percentage...some things arent listed there, as in taking charges...and you never listed steals and forced turnovers,....if your gonna prove me wrong, go the full 100 percent...dont go 50 and leave stats out when they count the most

Look, there are plenty of huge, strong guys in this league, but none of them put of the numbers Shaq does. So don't tell me he doesn't have any skill. That's bullshit. I'd say he's one of the top 20 players of all time, and possibly top 10. You cannot argue with numbers and wins. The man is flat out one of the best post players in the NBA, ever.

One name, my friend, one name

Wilt chamberlain : owns shaq in any which way you look at it...i dont give a crap about the stats, if you cant honestly say wilt was better than shaq, then you are the most moronic person i know...so before you say that "the man is flat out one of the best post players in the NBA, ever", (which, by the way, im not so sure the "ever" belongs there)..make sure you know your NBA history...there are a shitload of older guys that are easily better than shaq...

so dont JUST think of the players in your generation when Top 10 comes about...think older...the NBA has been around forever..not just in your lifetime

[Caleb Cattivera]

did shaq touch you in you bathing suit area? if he's the most dominant player ever, then he would take wilt. wilt couldn't guard shaq any better than arvydas sabonis. and ill be right back with those stats.

[Scott Weber]

However, he is no way shape or form the best at his position

Whoever listed the stats...they dont just end at points, rebounds, passes, FG percentage...some things arent listed there, as in taking charges...and you never listed steals and forced turnovers,....if your gonna prove me wrong, go the full 100 percent...dont go 50 and leave stats out when they count the most
Why don't you ever post any numbers YOURSELF to prove your case? Can't find them? They don't back you up? That seems more like the case.

One name, my friend, one name

Wilt chamberlain : owns shaq in any which way you look at it...i dont give a crap about the stats, if you cant honestly say wilt was better than shaq, then you are the most moronic person i know...so before you say that "the man is flat out one of the best post players in the NBA, ever", (which, by the way, im not so sure the "ever" belongs there)..make sure you know your NBA history...there are a shitload of older guys that are easily better than shaq...

so dont JUST think of the players in your generation when Top 10 comes about...think older...the NBA has been around forever..not just in your lifetime
Dude this is such a frustrating argument with you, you're not even listenining........I said he's top 20 all time, maybe top 10. I didn't discredit any of the older players, or anything of the sort. Don't tell me to know my NBA history, I guarantee you I know far more about the game than you ever will (as evidence of this post.) Wilt played in a time where his size and skills dwarfed everybody else. The competition was far smaller and weaker in his time, and it was a lot easier to put up 50 a game with 20 boards. The game today is a totally different type, it's apples and oranges. I'm not sure Wilt could guard Shaq, Shaq is simply too strong, he'd back it down and dunk it over him. Wilt had better touch and range, but as far as posting up goes, I don't know, man... The fact is, he is one of the best post players EVER, YES EVER. He was voted one of the NBA's 50 greatest players after 4 years in the NBA, how many post players were in that? I would say that alone qualifies him to be called ONE OF the greatest post players. I didn't even say WIlt was not as good as Shaq, you're making arguments on your own and putting words into my mouth. Why? Because you have a terrible argument and you're getting beat. I never said Shaq was the best. I never compared him to Wilt. You are ridiculous.

[mat1419]

wilt chamberlain played against 6' 8" raw white centers, shaq plays against built 7 footers who've been molded since they were young...wilt's still better, but i don't like this arguement and have to contradict everything you say at this point

[Scott Weber]

wilt chamberlain played against 6' 8" raw white centers, shaq plays against built 7 footers who've been molded since they were young...wilt's still better, but i don't like this arguement and have to contradict everything you say at this point
Thank you.

[Fullcollapse3k]

Wilt wasn't more dominant than Shaq.

[Caleb Cattivera]

Why don't you ever post any numbers YOURSELF to prove your case? Can't find them? They don't back you up? That seems more like the case.


Dude this is such a frustrating argument with you, you're not even listenining........I said he's top 20 all time, maybe top 10. I didn't discredit any of the older players, or anything of the sort. Don't tell me to know my NBA history, I guarantee you I know far more about the game than you ever will (as evidence of this post.) Wilt played in a time where his size and skills dwarfed everybody else. The competition was far smaller and weaker in his time, and it was a lot easier to put up 50 a game with 20 boards. The game today is a totally different type, it's apples and oranges. I'm not sure Wilt could guard Shaq, Shaq is simply too strong, he'd back it down and dunk it over him. Wilt had better touch and range, but as far as posting up goes, I don't know, man... The fact is, he is one of the best post players EVER, YES EVER. He was voted one of the NBA's 50 greatest players after 4 years in the NBA, how many post players were in that? I would say that alone qualifies him to be called ONE OF the greatest post players. I didn't even say WIlt was not as good as Shaq, you're making arguments on your own and putting words into my mouth. Why? Because you have a terrible argument and you're getting beat. I never said Shaq was the best. I never compared him to Wilt. You are ridiculous.

:hanged: i think someone just got pwned!

[BigD]

:hanged: i think someone just got pwned!
I agree with Scott...no point in throwing any more comments if Scott said everything I wanted to say and better.

[b e L I E v e]

Wilt wasn't more dominant than Shaq.

are you fucking kidding me?

How many times do i have to say this: SHAQ IS THE MOST DOMINANT...i never said wilt was more dominant...i just said wilt had more of a skill to his game...

at the end of the day, shaqs overrated....

and the reason im not getting any stats is because i dont have the time, or quiet frankly, the care to look up those things...

[Fullcollapse3k]

are you fucking kidding me?

Don't get pissy with me kid, I'm practically the only one in this thread who agrees with you that his complete game is overrated.

[mat1419]

Wilt chamberlain : owns shaq in any which way you look at it...i dont give a crap about the stats, if you cant honestly say wilt was better than shaq, then you are the most moronic person i know
ok

how many timeses do i have to say this: SHAQ IS THE MOST DOMINANT...i never said wilt was more dominant
waaiittt a minute...

[Scott Weber]

at the end of the day, shaqs overrated....

and the reason im not getting any stats is because i dont have the time, or quiet frankly, the care to look up those things...
Yet you tell us to look up the stats? I bet you looked them up, saw you were wrong, so posted that instead.

anybody who refuses to address the points made against him in a debate has conceded and lost the argument. You lose, I win. Shaq isn't overrated - kthx.

Who's next.

[Caleb Cattivera]

mwuhaha. scott thank you for entertainment today.

[b e L I E v e]

ok


waaiittt a minute...

thanks for proving my point...never in that did i say he was more dominant, specifically

i, of course, said he owned him, and in this, i meant by things off the stat sheet...and as an overall player

[marrost]

So what the fuck are you trying to say? Shaq isn't a good player other than his stats?

[radiofriendly]

mwuhaha. scott thank you for entertainment today.

hehe...indeed.

i love Charley Rosen of Fox Sports.com. he recently ranked Shaq as the #3 all time center behind Russell & Kareem and ahead of Wilt. here's what he had to say

"His Bigness (including his mouth, girth, intelligence, sense of humor and accomplishments) is still on the scene. For sure, he's slow off the floor, a limited rebounder, and a mostly stationary defender — but Shaq remains one of the best ever. Aside from Kevin McHale, Shaq has more moves at his disposal in the pivot than anyone else in the record book.

Russell was better on defense and infinitely more dominant. Abdul-Jabbar could score more points more efficiently. And, although Shaq has spent many seasons out of shape, struggling with injuries, and/or giving in to his own ennui, he's still more consistently competitive than was Chamberlain."

[b e L I E v e]

So what the fuck are you trying to say? Shaq isn't a good player other than his stats?

Im trying to say that shaq shouldnt get all the credit he does get....most of it...but sometimes its over the top

[marrost]

It's a shame that you've posted no substantial proof or reasoning to back that statement, and ignored everything else that has been said in this thread about your knowledge of basketball and Shaq himself.

[Scott Weber]

It's a shame that you've posted no substantial proof or reasoning to back that statement, and ignored everything else that has been said in this thread about your knowledge of basketball and Shaq himself.
Haha, seriously. Kid keeps getting owned over and over again, and yet he sticks to his guns with absolutely nothing to back it up.

[b e L I E v e]

alright, fine, you want proof, i dont even need to say anything...

http://www.suntimes.com/output/basketball/cst-spt-fifty18.html

shaq ranks 8...and there are two centers above him as the GREATEST CENTERS OF ALL TIME

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain

The list is the most updated there is...

[Scott Weber]

alright, fine, you want proof, i dont even need to say anything...

http://www.suntimes.com/output/basketball/cst-spt-fifty18.html

shaq ranks 8...and there are two centers above him as the GREATEST CENTERS OF ALL TIME

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain

The list is the most updated there is...
LOL, you're going to pull one columnists take on the top 50 and use it as your own argument? Good Lord man, at least TRY and say something for yourself, that doesn't prove anything at all....Even in that list, Shaq is still ranked 8, and you said there's no way he should be top 10, so that link completely contradicts your initial argument. You've got to be kidding with that link - give it up and go home. He's also the number 1 active player on that list. Get a clue.

[marrost]

LOL, you're going to pull one columnists take on the top 50 and use it as your own argument? Good Lord man, at least TRY and say something for yourself, that doesn't prove anything at all....Even in that list, Shaq is still ranked 8, and you said there's no way he should be top 10, so that link completely contradicts your initial argument. You've got to be kidding with that link - give it up and go home. He's also the number 1 active player on that list. Get a clue.
Haha you're going to get that last word no matter what Scott. And deservedly so.

[Scott Weber]

Haha you're going to get that last word no matter what Scott. And deservedly so.
Haha, you're damn right. I'd concede points against my argument if this guy had any, but it's really obvious he knows nothing about basketball and he has nothing to back up what he says.

[ArTkY_]

Just look back to the days when Hakeem was in his prime.

[Caleb Cattivera]

Haha, you're damn right. I'd concede points against my argument if this guy had any, but it's really obvious he knows nothing about basketball and he has nothing to back up what he says.

mwu mwu mwuhahahahaha. this kid is LAME. im sure i can find other articles where shaq is listed higher.

here is a link where a known nba author says shaq is the greatest ever.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2003/writers/jack_mccallum/11/12/nba_insider/

and he's a link where someone actually BACKS UP their argument unlike someone i know.

definately check this link out though, interesting points.

http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2005/04/is_the_shaq_tru.html

[catchmealone]

i always wanted to say that...haha...anyway

My arguement here is about the so-called ''greatest player of all time''....Ive made the arguement in another post, but i figure i start a thread to see what you guys think about my opinion

Shaq...where to start? Well, let me say this...he has no real "skill"...I dont think ive ever seen the guy hit a shot from outside the paint...my grandma shoots better free throws than he does...and every time he gets on camera he always acts like a wise ass

So why does he get so successful? Well, lets take a look...Last time i checked, shaq weighed just under a billion pounds...and every other person in the league looks like a fly on his shoulder...so all he needs to do is get his big ass body in there and dunk or lay it up...no skill envolved, just pure strength... And the regs obviously love him on offence, even though he doesnt make the FTs...

Now for defence...let me double check one more time...yeah, okay, still a billion pounds...so that means, the only thing thats getting through him is Mario Andretti on his freakin race car...so its not that hard to raise a hand to block a shot...or in his case...stand still so another guy cant get through...

So, before you call him one of the top 10 of all time...think about it...hes easily one of the top 100 players...but not ten...in any aspect...

I have no problem with him being called the most dominant...but no way in hell is he the greatest

(i hope this doesnt show up on ESPN tomorrow)...haha
You are just a moron. The guy is a winner. His team is a contender for the title year in and year out. And the reason they are a contender is always because of SHAQ.
You can't say he's not the greatest defender because he can't steal the ball. That's not his game. Gary Payton can't block a shot, so he's not a great defender? No, that's wrong.
You can't say he's not the greatest scorer of all time because he does'nt have a 3pt shot or a 20 ft jumper. That's not his game. A.I. is a great scorer, but he can't sit in the paint and post up and slam the ball over his opponents.

[Caleb Cattivera]

You are just a moron. The guy is a winner. His team is a contender for the title year in and year out. And the reason they are a contender is always because of SHAQ.
You can't say he's not the greatest defender because he can't steal the ball. That's not his game. Gary Payton can't block a shot, so he's not a great defender? No, that's wrong.
You can't say he's not the greatest scorer of all time because he does'nt have a 3pt shot or a 20 ft jumper. That's not his game. A.I. is a great scorer, but he can't sit in the paint and post up and slam the ball over his opponents.

real talk.

[Scott Weber]

real talk.
good talk, i'll see ya out there.

[b e L I E v e]

LOL, you're going to pull one columnists take on the top 50 and use it as your own argument?

im not that stupid....the list is not from one columnist...the list is official NBA voting by players and all-stars..as well as hall of famers...the opinions are purely fromthe columnist, however...but the list is what really matters

Ok, so you want stats...you say shaq is the best...fine...but take a look at Amare Stoudamire..at 245 pounds...6-10...and only three years pro...hes easily better than shaq...EASILY...i can guarentee by the time this guy gets to shaqs length as pro...he'll have as many..if not more, rings ..straight up stats from NBA.com...

Ranks #5 in the NBA in Points Per Game(26.0)
Ranks #17 in the NBA in Rebounds Per Game(8.9)
Ranks #2 in the NBA in Field-Goal Percentage(0.559)
Ranks #3 in the NBA in Field Goals Made(747.0)
Ranks #12 in the NBA in Field Goal Attempts(1336.0)
Ranks #3 in the NBA in Free Throws(583.0)
Ranks #1 in the NBA in Free Throw Attempts(795.0)
Ranks #17 in the NBA in Offensive Rebounds(219.0)
Ranks #17 in the NBA in Offensive Rebounds Per Game(2.7)
Ranks #17 in the NBA in Defensive Rebounds(494.0)
Ranks #17 in the NBA in Defensive Rebounds Per Game(6.2)
Ranks #18 in the NBA in Total Rebounds(713.0)
Ranks #15 in the NBA in Blocks(130.0)
Ranks #3 in the NBA in Points(2080.0)
Ranks #19 in the NBA in Double-doubles(27.0)
Ranks #2 in the NBA in Field Goals Per 48 Minutes(12.41)
Ranks #16 in the NBA in Field-Goal Attempts Per 48 Minutes(22.2)
Ranks #4 in the NBA in Free Throws Per 48 Minutes(9.69)
Ranks #2 in the NBA in Free Throw Attempts Per 48 Minutes(13.21)
Ranks #2 in the NBA in Points Per 48 Minutes(34.6)
Ranks #4 in the NBA in Total Efficiency Points(2141.0)
Ranks #4 in the NBA in Efficiency Ranking(26.76)
Ranks #3 in the NBA in Efficiency Ranking Per 48 Minutes(35.57

[Scott Weber]

im not that stupid....the list is not from one columnist...the list is official NBA voting by players and all-stars..as well as hall of famers...the opinions are purely fromthe columnist, however...but the list is what really matters

Ok, so you want stats...you say shaq is the best...fine...but take a look at Amare Stoudamire..at 245 pounds...6-10...and only three years pro...hes easily better than shaq...EASILY...i can guarentee by the time this guy gets to shaqs length as pro...he'll have as many..if not more, rings ..straight up stats from NBA.com...

Ranks #5 in the NBA in Points Per Game(26.0)
Ranks #17 in the NBA in Rebounds Per Game(8.9)
Ranks #2 in the NBA in Field-Goal Percentage(0.559)
Ranks #3 in the NBA in Field Goals Made(747.0)
Ranks #12 in the NBA in Field Goal Attempts(1336.0)
Ranks #3 in the NBA in Free Throws(583.0)
Ranks #1 in the NBA in Free Throw Attempts(795.0)
Ranks #17 in the NBA in Offensive Rebounds(219.0)
Ranks #17 in the NBA in Offensive Rebounds Per Game(2.7)
Ranks #17 in the NBA in Defensive Rebounds(494.0)
Ranks #17 in the NBA in Defensive Rebounds Per Game(6.2)
Ranks #18 in the NBA in Total Rebounds(713.0)
Ranks #15 in the NBA in Blocks(130.0)
Ranks #3 in the NBA in Points(2080.0)
Ranks #19 in the NBA in Double-doubles(27.0)
Ranks #2 in the NBA in Field Goals Per 48 Minutes(12.41)
Ranks #16 in the NBA in Field-Goal Attempts Per 48 Minutes(22.2)
Ranks #4 in the NBA in Free Throws Per 48 Minutes(9.69)
Ranks #2 in the NBA in Free Throw Attempts Per 48 Minutes(13.21)
Ranks #2 in the NBA in Points Per 48 Minutes(34.6)
Ranks #4 in the NBA in Total Efficiency Points(2141.0)
Ranks #4 in the NBA in Efficiency Ranking(26.76)
Ranks #3 in the NBA in Efficiency Ranking Per 48 Minutes(35.57
Dude....are you kidding me? Ok, first of all, Amare plays in Phoenix, an entirely different style of play than anywhere Shaq has ever played. Amare is a power forward, not a center. Amare's really not even a post player. If you're going to criticize Shaq for being overrated, look no further than Amare. The guy can jump out of this world, but the reason his FG% is so high is the same reason as Shaq's - he just turns and dunks over people. He's a very poor rebounder for a man his size (only 713 all season), he is somewhat awkward and is a poor passer, and Amare still has a ton of work as far as coordnation and ball movement. It's also easy to score 26 points a game on Phoenix, considering that team scores like 120 points a game.

Also, you're comparing Amare to Shaq when Amare is only what, 22? You can't make the claim that he's a better player - even now, with the stats you just presented, you claim that Amare is better than Shaq, when Shaq is 33 and riddled with injuries. Let's take a look at what Shaq did in the NBA when he was a mere 22 years old (also only his 2nd year in the pros)

FG % - .599% (better)
RPG - 13.2 (absolutely destroying Amare's numbers)
APG - 2.4 (much better than Amare despite Amare's better dexterity)
SPG - .94 (same)
BPG - 2.85 (FAR better than Amare)
PPG - 29.3 (I think that speaks for itself)

So you say Amare is "easily" better than Shaq after only 3 years pro, but thanks to a little statistical analysis, it's very easy to see that Shaq was better than Amare after only 2 years pro. Even now, with Amare being 11 years younger, their numbers are still comprable, Shaq is still a better passer and leader. If you actually watched basketball, you'd know that Amare has tons of talent but is a bit of a head case. He doesn't always make good decisions, he relies on his talent to get him out of jams instead of making the smart play, and he's not carrying a team by himself, like Shaq did in Orlando, he did it in LA (before Kobe became a superstar) and then he teamed up with Wade (at age 33) to do it in Miami.

You simply cannot say that Amare will win more titles than Shaq because well, he won't. And if he does, he'll have to team up with a leader or he'll have to prove he can carry a team on his own, and that's going to require better rebounding and passing. Also, what do you mean "gets to Shaq's length." Do you really think players continue to grow to 7'2'' after they hit age 22? Unless you mean age. In that case, I'd say length is the wrong word to use.

Ok, I'd say I sufficiently owned you once again. Please come back with more half-assed arguments and then I can send you scampering back into the corner again.

[b e L I E v e]

Let me start off by saying that i specifically said "length as a pro"...not just length...in any case, i agree, it was awkward wording

Let me then continue to say that i think you should calm yourself down...this is purely an opinionated forum..not a life or death decision on a basketball players talent

That said...you've made a good arguement, as you have in the past...however...there are some errors...You listed Shaqs stats after two years...thats great, and accurate as well..but as a whole, his career PPG are equal to Amare..that being 26...so in saying "that speaks for itself"...im afraid thats unrelatable to the topic...

Next, you keep insisting on shaqs passing abilities...well he averages 2.7...thats not exactly something to be proud of...although, you were correct again, he does have more than amare...but only by one...one mere pass a game..

You also said "It's also easy to score 26 points a game on Phoenix, considering that team scores like 120 points a game"..that is COMPLETELY incorrect in every which way you look at it, sorry to say...We can all agree...unless your completely oblivious to the NBA...that the West is a better conference than the East...plainly said..based on All Star Game outcomes...NBA titles, and team rosters...its almost too obvious..that being said, you cannot sarcastically say that its easy for a guy to go out, night in and night out, scoring 26 ppg vs a better division than shaq is in...When Shaq was on the Lakers they scored nearly as many points a night..maybe not higher, but close...

[Caleb Cattivera]

Let me start off by saying that i specifically said "length as a pro"...not just length...in any case, i agree, it was awkward wording

Let me then continue to say that i think you should calm yourself down...this is purely an opinionated forum..not a life or death decision on a basketball players talent

That said...you've made a good arguement, as you have in the past...however...there are some errors...You listed Shaqs stats after two years...thats great, and accurate as well..but as a whole, his career PPG are equal to Amare..that being 26...so in saying "that speaks for itself"...im afraid thats unrelatable to the topic...

Next, you keep insisting on shaqs passing abilities...well he averages 2.7...thats not exactly something to be proud of...although, you were correct again, he does have more than amare...but only by one...one mere pass a game..

You also said "It's also easy to score 26 points a game on Phoenix, considering that team scores like 120 points a game"..that is COMPLETELY incorrect in every which way you look at it, sorry to say...We can all agree...unless your completely oblivious to the NBA...that the West is a better conference than the East...plainly said..based on All Star Game outcomes...NBA titles, and team rosters...its almost too obvious..that being said, you cannot sarcastically say that its easy for a guy to go out, night in and night out, scoring 26 ppg vs a better division than shaq is in...When Shaq was on the Lakers they scored nearly as many points a night..maybe not higher, but close...
ahh i LOVE history...one of my better subjects in fact. so let's have a history lesson, shall we? well kids, according to history, the eastern conference has won 36 NBA titles. Does anyone know how many the western conference has won? 22. Now, moving on let's look at NBA All Star history. How many games has the western conference won? 21 games. The eastern conference, 32. Another statistic we should look at, Shaquille O'neal and Amare Stoudemire's carrer averages. Shaq - 26.7, Amare - 19.9. Obviously Shaq has a higher average than Amare. Let's further look at the one more 'pass' per game...actually that would be an assist. Which in turn means whoever he dealt the ball to, scored points. So the pass comment is irrelevant to this discussion. In conlusion class, what have we learned today? That historically the EAST is a better conference than the West. And that Shaq has a higher career scoring average than Amare Stoudemire. Now, Believe, go sit in the corner and think about your actions.

[Scott Weber]

Yeah. Shaq's career PPG (26.7) is still higher than Amare's BEST season of 26.0 PPG. Amare's also got the best PG in the game right now dishing him the ball (Steve Nash) - and Phoenix plays exactly his type of game (run, gun, and leap.) Shaq's always played on teams much faster than him (Penny and Co. in Orlando, Kobe and D Fisher in LA, and D Wade and Co. in Miami) but he still manages to adapt and perform consistently. I mean...Stoudamire is good, but he's not even the best player on his TEAM (remember, Nash won the MVP.) There's just no comparison.

[Caleb Cattivera]

Yeah. Shaq's career PPG (26.7) is still higher than Amare's BEST season of 26.0 PPG. Amare's also got the best PG in the game right now dishing him the ball (Steve Nash) - and Phoenix plays exactly his type of game (run, gun, and leap.) Shaq's always played on teams much faster than him (Penny and Co. in Orlando, Kobe and D Fisher in LA, and D Wade and Co. in Miami) but he still manages to adapt and perform consistently. I mean...Stoudamire is good, but he's not even the best player on his TEAM (remember, Nash won the MVP.) There's just no comparison.
good point scott! i'm very glad you pointed out that nash was the mvp. you get an extra five minutes at recess!!

[marrost]

Yeah. Shaq's career PPG (26.7) is still higher than Amare's BEST season of 26.0 PPG. Amare's also got the best PG in the game right now dishing him the ball (Steve Nash) - and Phoenix plays exactly his type of game (run, gun, and leap.) Shaq's always played on teams much faster than him (Penny and Co. in Orlando, Kobe and D Fisher in LA, and D Wade and Co. in Miami) but he still manages to adapt and perform consistently. I mean...Stoudamire is good, but he's not even the best player on his TEAM (remember, Nash won the MVP.) There's just no comparison.
Plus Amare has only been in the league since 2002, ten years less than Shaq. Shaq's PPG speaks for a much longer career and is still a number to be highly respected. Give it up Believe, you've provided noting concrete and it doesn't help that you can't even get the simple facts straight.

[catchmealone]

Haha, I love you guys. believe, I got no problems with you, but you got your ass handed to you by Scott and Caleb. You just have to admit it. EVERY item you brought up, they came back and just owned you. You were right, however, it is totally opinion. But you probably wouldn't be saying that if someone agreed with you.

[b e L I E v e]

Haha, I love you guys. believe, I got no problems with you, but you got your ass handed to you by Scott and Caleb. You just have to admit it. EVERY item you brought up, they came back and just owned you. You were right, however, it is totally opinion. But you probably wouldn't be saying that if someone agreed with you.
honestly...im sitting here laughing my ass off....how seriously they take this thread...i bet their whole self esteem just went up like 20 points for every post they posted...its so funny...

[catchmealone]

honestly...im sitting here laughing my ass off....how seriously they take this thread...i bet their whole self esteem just went up like 20 points for every post they posted...its so funny...
dude, you obviously took it serious. if you would have said something like this after their first posts, then I would see your point. But you have put in alot of posts in this topic and looked up some stats. You've stood your ground(far too long) and that's fine. But now that they totally destroyed you, don't change your tune and pretend like you didn't take this just as serious.

[Scott Weber]

dude, you obviously took it serious. if you would have said something like this after their first posts, then I would see your point. But you have put in alot of posts in this topic and looked up some stats. You've stood your ground(far too long) and that's fine. But now that they totally destroyed you, don't change your tune and pretend like you didn't take this just as serious.
Haha, thank you. You called him out on that before I could.

[Caleb Cattivera]

honestly...im sitting here laughing my ass off....how seriously they take this thread...i bet their whole self esteem just went up like 20 points for every post they posted...its so funny...
man just admit it. scott and i owned you. that is all there is to it. we can admit when we've been owned, scott's owned me twice. it's cool. we're all family.

oh yeah, believe why'd you give me negative scene points.

[Scott Weber]

Hahahahahaha Caleb that's some funny shit.

[b e L I E v e]

still laughing

as a matter of fact, i did admit it...That said...you've made a good arguement, as you have in the past...

[Caleb Cattivera]

still laughing

as a matter of fact, i did admit it...
no it wasnt a good argument...it was a good owning. you just cant admit that the facts that you said were wrong...for instance the comment about the west...give it up.

[b e L I E v e]

no it wasnt a good argument...it was a good owning. you just cant admit that the facts that you said were wrong...for instance the comment about the west...give it up.
dont you ever shut the fuck up?

this was an topic meant for debating and opinions...so no, im not gonna fricken bow down to you...get a life

[Caleb Cattivera]

dont you ever shut the fuck up?

this was an topic meant for debating and opinions...so no, im not gonna fricken bow down to you...get a life
and you debated WRONGLY. you were WRONG on your comments about the west, you got owned in that aspect.

[b e L I E v e]

and you debated WRONGLY. you were WRONG on your comments about the west, you got owned in that aspect.
go ahead, keep running your mouth

[Scott Weber]

go ahead, keep running your mouth
hahaha dude, give it up, it's over...you've retreated so far that now you're just talking about the situation instead of the actual argument. We clearly proved your initial arguement wrong. Now just walk away.

[b e L I E v e]

That may be because I choose to be mature over moronic

[catchmealone]

That may be because I choose to be mature or moronic
I'm thinking moronic. Don't you know when to give up?

[Scott Weber]

I'm thinking moronic. Don't you know when to give up?
bahahaha