Nick Torres > Anthony Green, Max Bemis, Jesse Lacey and other "big name" scene acts

[chipdip18]

He's got better lyrics and a better singing voice. Jesse Lacey is the only who can compare in songwriting.

[Rodeo]

Nick > Conor.



Truth.

[chipdip18]

That sir, is bold. But i'd put Nick in the same league as Conor.

[Chromefox]

To be fair, it's not that hard to have a better singing voice than anyone you've listed.

I am however, intrigued.

[GuitarR0cker1]

I have never actually heard of him. RIYL?

[chipdip18]

To be fair, it's not that hard to have a better singing voice than anyone you've listed.

I am however, intrigued.


True, but people swoon over Bemis', Green's, Chris Conley's, Jordan whatever from NFG's voice. But what do they all have in common? Supremely inferior to Nick's.

[chipdip18]

I have never actually heard of him. RIYL?

Nick Torres fronted Northstar and fronts and Cassino. So, if you like Pop-Punk from 2000-2004, you'll like Northstar. Cassino is more folk-oriented, primarily acoustic Pop/Folk.

[theguy77]

mmmm, no i'd say lacey beats torres. bemis would beat him if all his albums were like IARB but unfortunately i view that as a fluke, and attribute it straight from the genius of tim o'heir as a producer rather than the genius of bemis as a songwriter. torres shits all over anthony green for sure.

Nick > Conor.

Truth.

wow, very bold, cant agree with that, man.

[theguy77]

oh shit i forgot cassino. that gives torres more credibility but i'd still say lacey just edges him out and oberst beats him significantly.

[Rodeo]

wow, very bold, cant agree with that, man.


In terms of talent? Really?



I only like Bright Eyes until Fevers and Mirrors... and a few off of lifted. But really... there is only so much 'miserable' I can take from him.

[chipdip18]

mmmm, no i'd say lacey beats torres. bemis would beat him if all his albums were like IARB but unfortunately i view that as a fluke, and attribute it straight from the genius of tim o'heir as a producer rather than the genius of bemis as a songwriter. torres shits all over anthony green for sure.



wow, very bold, cant agree with that, man.

How does Lacey beat Torres?

oh shit i forgot cassino. that gives torres more credibility but i'd still say lacey just edges him out and oberst beats him significantly.

I'm with you on Oberst haha. If Nick puts more albums under his belt keeping the same great lyrics and such, he'll move closer.

[theguy77]

How does Lacey beat Torres?

i havent heard enough cassino to really give you an educated opinion as im sure torres's more "mature" songwriting would show me different attributes. but as it stands, my bias leans toward lacey because not only is brand new my favorite band (and i like TDAG even more now than i already did before, its very close to deja and might even top it now), but i think lacey is overall a better lyricist -- sure he writes one liners (damn good ones at that, one of the best one-liner writers in my opinion) but based on the lyrics on pollyanna, while torres showed definite potential in metaphorical writing, it was simply too vague and disconnected. with metaphorical writing you have to kind of connect each one in a common theme in order to make it a little more clear what you're trying to say.

I'm with you on Oberst haha. If Nick puts more albums under his belt keeping the same great lyrics and such, he'll move closer.

yeah i dont know torres is good but i just really dont think he'd be able to reach oberst's lyrical prowess.

[Rodeo]

yeah i dont know torres is good but i just really dont think he'd be able to reach oberst's lyrical prowess.

Conor is good at putting words together but he hasn't told me anything new in years.

[theguy77]

In terms of talent? Really?



I only like Bright Eyes until Fevers and Mirrors... and a few off of lifted. But really... there is only so much 'miserable' I can take from him.

i can understand that really getting to someone but... come on haha conor oberst is just SUCH a good lyricist and hes written songs on every end of modern folk music you could come up with haha.

[GuitarR0cker1]

Nick Torres fronted Northstar and fronts and Cassino. So, if you like Pop-Punk from 2000-2004, you'll like Northstar. Cassino is more folk-oriented, primarily acoustic Pop/Folk.
I can't believe I forgot Nick Torres fronted Northstar. I swore the name was familiar when I saw this thread.

[chipdip18]

i havent heard enough cassino to really give you an educated opinion as im sure torres's more "mature" songwriting would show me different attributes. but as it stands, my bias leans toward lacey because not only is brand new my favorite band (and i like TDAG even more now than i already did before, its very close to deja and might even top it now), but i think lacey is overall a better lyricist -- sure he writes one liners (damn good ones at that, one of the best one-liner writers in my opinion) but based on the lyrics on pollyanna, while torres showed definite potential in metaphorical writing, it was simply too vague and disconnected. with metaphorical writing you have to kind of connect each one in a common theme in order to make it a little more clear what you're trying to say.



yeah i dont know torres is good but i just really dont think he'd be able to reach oberst's lyrical prowess.

Well i loved Sounds of Salvation, and i love that "open" feeling of lyrics tha the displays. Jeff Mangum and Conor Oberst show that openness of lyrics also. Jesse Lacey has good one-liners, i'll give him that, but sometime i'd rather get lost in the lyrics than get tied down to one interpetation. So i guess my view of Torres > Lacey is a bit subjective, but i'm sticking to it. Torries does sing better though in my opinion. Lacey does the job fine, but Torres' voice is soo lovely to my ears.

I can't believe I forgot Nick Torres fronted Northstar. I swore the name was familiar when I saw this thread.

Haha well at least you recognized it.

[ThisIsNotDan]

I don't think I would take Nick over Jesse, but over the other two? definetly

[lenard27]

I would agree with this from a personal standpoint. I would also say that Lacey edges him out a bit.

But he is definitely much better than Bemis, Grenn, and Oberst.

EDIT: And I also think that Torres is a better singer and has such a distinctive "lazy" delivery.

[3mpire]

In terms of talent? Really?



I only like Bright Eyes until Fevers and Mirrors... and a few off of lifted. But really... there is only so much 'miserable' I can take from him.
Not into I'm Wide Awake? I think it's incredible. Can't get into Lifted at all.

[theguy77]

Well i loved Sounds of Salvation, and i love that "open" feeling of lyrics tha the displays. Jeff Mangum and Conor Oberst show that openness of lyrics also. Jesse Lacey has good one-liners, i'll give him that, but sometime i'd rather get lost in the lyrics than get tied down to one interpetation. So i guess my view of Torres > Lacey is a bit subjective, but i'm sticking to it. Torries does sing better though in my opinion. Lacey does the job fine, but Torres' voice is soo lovely to my ears.

yeah so would i, it just has to be cohesive. but remember im basing this off of northstar and not really cassino, i just look at songs like the "pornographer's daughter" and while it is metaphorical it lacks cohesion in that department.

as far as singing, its debatable. torres's higher voice completely pwns lacey's, but while he has nice tone in the lower ranges jesse just seems to have so much more control in those ranges i mean hes got that breathy voice and he throws a lot of different flavors of tension and calm in between -- he showcases this in "tommy gun" and "jaws theme swimming" and throughout the more low-key parts of TDAG. but i can see how you'd prefer torres.

[underthetalking]

I think he's better than Oberst. Lacey, maybe on par.

[Dr. Acula]

bemis would beat him if all his albums were like IARB but unfortunately i view that as a fluke, and attribute it straight from the genius of tim o'heir as a producer rather than the genius of bemis as a songwriter.

I absolutely adore the production on Is A Real Boy. Perfection. Coby is such a talented drummer and you can really hear that on the album. One of the things I didnt like about In Defense (besides some filler) was the production. The guitars and drums (especially) sounded off. Couldnt stand it. And I loved the production Brad did with mewithoutYou and Sunny Day Real Estate but it didnt work with Say Anything.

[Gaugzilla]

I absolutely adore the production on Is A Real Boy. Perfection. Coby is such a talented drummer and you can really hear that on the album. One of the things I didnt like about In Denfense (besides some filler) was the production. The guitars and drums (especially) sounded off. Couldnt stand it. And I loved the production Brad did with mewithoutYou and Sunny Day Real Estate but it didnt work with Say Anything.

I'm glad to hear I wasn't the only one who thought the production on IDOG was horrid. The guitars and drums sounded so muddy it was one of the bigger turn-offs of the whole thing.

[theguy77]

I absolutely adore the production on Is A Real Boy. Perfection. Coby is such a talented drummer and you can really hear that on the album. One of the things I didnt like about In Denfense (besides some filler) was the production. The guitars and drums (especially) sounded off. Couldnt stand it. And I loved the production Brad did with mewithoutYou and Sunny Day Real Estate but it didnt work with Say Anything.

oh yeah, the computer audio engineering is excellent, but when i say production im not only talking about that but im also including how a producer will take stripped down songs and will sit there and just shell out ideas and ideas for multiple tracks just pushing the songwriter to his full potential, adding depth to every song and making it the best it can be. the producer's input could be something as simple as adding another track of the same rhythm guitar part to make it more full and powerful or adding another harmony onto the chorus to make it a more catchy hook, to being something as intense as completely restructuring the bridge so that it changes the key of the song and is broken down into lead guitar parts coming out of every direction. max spent an entire year in an attic with tim o'heir enhancing the songwriting of IARB, and i'll tell you one thing, it wouldnt be the most complex pop-punk album in recent existence without him.

[mycuban]

while i do enjoy both northstar and cassino, dont feel like that is a true statement, the music they write is all different, it depends on what the listener prefers.

[Dr. Acula]

oh yeah, the computer audio engineering is excellent, but when i say production im not only talking about that but im also including how a producer will take stripped down songs and will sit there and just shell out ideas and ideas for multiple tracks just pushing the songwriter to his full potential, adding depth to every song and making it the best it can be. the producer's input could be something as simple as adding another track of the same rhythm guitar part to make it more full and powerful or adding another harmony onto the chorus to make it a more catchy hook, to being something as intense as completely restructuring the bridge so that it changes the key of the song and is broken down into lead guitar parts coming out of every direction. max spent an entire year in an attic with tim o'heir enhancing the songwriting of IARB, and i'll tell you one thing, it wouldnt be the most complex pop-punk album in recent existence without him.

Had no idea you were in the attic with them! Was Anne Frank there too?

You've apparently read many more interviews with Max than I have. But I agree with what youre saying. From sound engineering to arrangments, IARB >>>>>>>>> IDOTG. It's not even close.

[StreetSpirit76]

Never heard of him but the only "scene" frontman I like is Jesse Lacey and that's for the most part due to TDAG, so I'm not sure if I'd enjoy him. Especially if he's anything like the other two you mentioned. I'll give him a listen though if someone wants to recommend me a starting point. *hint hint*

[chipdip18]

Never heard of him but the only "scene" frontman I like is Jesse Lacey and that's for the most part due to TDAG, so I'm not sure if I'd enjoy him. Especially if he's anything like the other two you mentioned. I'll give him a listen though if someone wants to recommend me a starting point. *hint hint*

I like you, so hold on.

[kearn1tm]

Oberst is far better than any of the names mentioned in this thread.

[what_ever]

but not Andy Hull

[kearn1tm]

but not Andy Hull[...]

...is a pedestrian songwriter.

Finishing sentences is fun.

[Keagan Ilvonen]

Not sure if he can compete with Anthony's passion, but songwriting ability is better than Max. Not so sure about Jesse.

[chipdip18]

Not sure if he can compete with Anthony's passion, but songwriting ability is better than Max. Not so sure about Jesse.


Why not Jesse?

[Keagan Ilvonen]

I'd say they are about even because I can't pick one over the other haha.

[chipdip18]

Haha fair enough i suppose.

[fightoffyrdmns]

I definitely believe Torres is better than Green and Bemis, but not Lacey. This seems to be a consensus here.

[chipdip18]

I think most people are just too in love with Brand New/Jesse Lacey and overlook Nick Torres/Northstar/Cassino because Northstar was shorter lived.

[IWasaCamera]

Oberst is far better than any of the names mentioned in this thread.
Yep.

[theguy77]

but not Andy Hull

what?! oberst is so > hull it's not even funny.

[theguy77]

...is a pedestrian songwriter.

Finishing sentences is fun.

seriously his version of alternative music is too safe even for me.

[funployee]

Nick is great, such a brilliant songwriting and just a great musician. Having said that, I wouldn't even compare him to fucking Max Bemis or Anthony Green. Jesse Lacey is great as well, and very talented, but nowhere near Nick Torres, IMO

[kearn1tm]

seriously his version of alternative music is too safe even for me.

Wait, but you're the ostentatious Mr. Indie...and they have beards. By all rights, you're required to love Manchester Orchestra.

Everything I know is a lie.

[theguy77]

Wait, but you're the ostentatious Mr. Indie...and they have beards. By all rights, you're required to love Manchester Orchestra.

Everything I know is a lie.

andy said he was thinking of shaving. fucking sellout.

hoping you know my usertitle is as much of a parody as your post mocking it is haha

[IWasaCamera]

I like Iron & Wine.

[kearn1tm]

hoping you know my usertitle is as much of a parody as your post mocking it is haha

The joke isn't nearly as funny when you blatantly acknowledge the irony.

"Indie kids" love irony. They told me so.

I like Iron & Wine.

It was the Twilight soundtrack, wasn't it.

[IWasaCamera]

Vampires are dreamy.

[what_ever]

...is a pedestrian songwriter.

Finishing sentences is fun.

what?! oberst is so > hull it's not even funny.

wow, challenging the Great Oberst sure hit some nerves

[kearn1tm]

Vampires are dreamy.

If movies have taught me anything, they're all very attractive for being dead.

[chipdip18]

Backed.

I can't believe we're even discussing the idea than the guy from Northstar trumps Conor Oberst.
Seriously. I was not expecting to have Conor Oberst to be mentioned in the "other big name scene acts" section of the title. I was leaning toward people grouped around the three preceeding artists.

[kearn1tm]

wow, challenging the Great Oberst sure hit some nerves

Oberst is by no means "great," but he's a capable, and at times very inspired songwriter who is leagues above the guy from Northstar or Jeff Mangum Jr. or the fella who wrote such a "witty satire of mainstream pop" in the form of lines like "I called her on the phone and she touched herself/I laughed myself to sleep" (get it...it's satirical!!!).

[theguy77]

Backed.

I can't believe we're even discussing the idea than the guy from Northstar trumps Conor Oberst.

hahaha, ONE guy came in here and said that. believe me no one with any knowledge at all actually believes that haha.

[Miss Heartcore]

Way too much love for Nick Torres. I agree with you.

[IWasaCamera]

If movies have taught me anything, they're all very attractive for being dead.
Count Orlok, yum.

[kearn1tm]

Count Orlok, yum.

Would.

[Rodeo]

i only said it to mess with chip... you know... his avatar and all.

[chipdip18]

As for a scene music goes Northstar are definitely one of the better acts but he's not even a talented lyricist, his lyrics mean nothing. He is worth than Jesse for all metaphors and no content.

He's worth more or less than Jesse? I assume you mean less.

[IWasaCamera]

He dropped the crybaby act after Lifted.

[kearn1tm]

i just can't stand conor's crybaby routine anymore. it was cool 12 years ago... but he's riding the same wave.

His "crybaby routine?"

[Rodeo]

He dropped the crybaby act after Lifted.


that was a joke, people... that's why i changed it to what i really meant.



i was just playing along with the "conor hit a nerve" thing, as it clearly did... :-d

[Rodeo]

It didn't hit a nerve it was just ridiculous.


yep.



do you think that if Abbey Road can, tomorrow, influence ONE band that the album should be considered influential' ?

[theguy77]

As for a scene music goes Northstar are definitely one of the better acts but he's not even a talented lyricist, his lyrics mean nothing. He is worth than Jesse for all metaphors and no content.

i agree with you generally, although i wouldnt say his lyrics mean NOTHING but its been established before that your standards as far as lyrics are concerned are higher than mine. but i havent heard cassino, maybe cassino nick has a little more potential to show than northstar nick. but you're definitely right about northstar being one of the top scene bands, one of like, less than 10 that are worthwhile for longer than a few months in my opinion.

[chipdip18]

Vampires are dreamy.

I disliked Twilight, and find vampires scary.

Did you proofread the review i sent you?

[funkel]

Thread delivers the lulz.

[kearn1tm]

I disliked Twilight, and find vampires scary.


So you're not a fan of smut aimed at the female early-teen demographic? Shocking.

[IWasaCamera]

Did you proofread the review i sent you?
Yep, it's rather bare though. Was it meant to be a final version?

[chipdip18]

So you're not a fan of smut aimed at the female early-teen demographic? Shocking.

I was surprised.

[funkel]

Twilight is one of the landmark films of the current generation, duh.

[chipdip18]

Yep, it's rather bare though. Was it meant to be a final version?

Well no, but i can't think of what else to say. There wasn't much substance to the album to comment about, without repeating myself.

[funkel]

Well no, but i can't think of what else to say. There wasn't much substance to the album to comment about, without repeating myself.
Talk about the lack of originality within the "scene" and the need for a change of pace/new icon to set the change in motion?

[chipdip18]

Talk about the lack of originality within the "scene" and the need for a change of pace/new icon to set the change in motion?

I'll just tanget and comment on the scene or another page and call it good then. Is your avatar Steel Train's Trampoline?

[IWasaCamera]

Well no, but i can't think of what else to say. There wasn't much substance to the album to comment about, without repeating myself.
Expound on the lack of substance then. I haven't heard the album but you can certainly flesh out the basic ideas of Say Anything/Saves The Day vs. Two Tongues, Bemis vs. Conley, Two Tongues vs. "pop-punk", side projects, etc.

[kearn1tm]

I was surprised.

You do realize that the prevailing subtext of the movie was really a commentary on the sociopolitical state of Post 9/11 America and the rampant xenophobia that spawned from the terrorist attacks?

[funkel]

I'll just tanget and comment on the scene or another page and call it good then. Is your avatar Steel Train's Trampoline?
Nope, the far superior 12" split between Arrows and These Hands Could Separate The Sky that came out in 2007.
Although I do like Trampoline, but it's essentially a much better version of Pretty.Odd, and thus a poor man's Sgt. Pepper's.

[chipdip18]

You do realize that the prevailing subtext of the movie was really a commentary on the sociopolitical state of Post 9/11 America and the rampant xenophobia that spawned from the terrorist attacks?

I'm obvious, ignorant and unAmerican then.

Nope, the far superior 12" split between Arrows and These Hands Could Separate The Sky that came out in 2007.
Although I do like Trampoline, but it's essentially a much better version of Pretty.Odd, and thus a poor man's Sgt. Pepper's.

I didn't think Trampoline would be your avatar. I still need to get some Arrows after i saw your thread.

[kearn1tm]

Twilight is one of the landmark films of the current generation, duh.

To compromise with my then boyfriend, he agreed to see Doubt with me if I saw Twilight. The greatness that was Philip Seymour Hoffman and Meryl Streep verbally sparring over a John Patrick Shanley screenplay adaptation of his play wasn't enough to outweigh the awful that was Twilight. No self-respecting 21 year old male should be seeing this film...and no, being gay doesn't absolve me (hot guys aside).

[funkel]

To compromise with my then boyfriend, he agreed to see Doubt with me if I saw Twilight. The greatness that was Philip Seymour Hoffman and Meryl Streep verbally sparring over a John Patrick Shanley screenplay adaptation of his play wasn't enough to outweigh the awful that was Twilight. No self-respecting 21 year old male should be seeing this film...and no, being gay doesn't absolve me (hot guys aside).
I really want to see Doubt.

[kearn1tm]

I'm obvious, ignorant and unAmerican then.

Easy there, Ann Coulter. Why do you hate diversity?

[kearn1tm]

I really want to see Doubt.

It's a fantastic film carried almost entirely by dialogue. It's a brilliantly acted film (though the cinematography was rather shallow. So many lingering shots and obtuse camera angles).

[chipdip18]

Easy there, Ann Coulter. Why do you hate diversity?


If i understood the referrence i'd have a poor attempt at a witty remark to come back at you with. I at least recognize the name.

[kearn1tm]

If i understood the referrence i'd have a poor attempt at a witty remark to come back at you with. I at least recognize the name.

...

Easy there Jessy Lacey.

See, a name we all know. For this joke to work, let us all pretend Jessy Lacey is xenophobic.

[KidRobot]

Cassino is really solid. Wouldn't put him in front of Lacey though.

[IWasaCamera]

I would also talk about how bad the vocal chemistry is between the two.
Quoting to ensure that Chip notices.

[chipdip18]

Expound on the lack of substance then. I haven't heard the album but you can certainly flesh out the basic ideas of Say Anything/Saves The Day vs. Two Tongues, Bemis vs. Conley, Two Tongues vs. "pop-punk", side projects, etc.

I'll work on it.

I would also talk about how bad the vocal chemistry is between the two.

I briefly mentioned it but man it is terrible. I don't want to twist the knife after i stab at it, but i could happen.

...

Easy there Jessy Lacey.

See, a name we all know. For this joke to work, let us all pretend Jessy Lacey is xenophobic.

Oh man, my elite points dropped six since you had to use Jesse Lacey as an example.

Cassino is really solid. Wouldn't put him in front of Lacey though.

Let's give them each one more record then decide.

[theguy77]

I would also talk about how bad the vocal chemistry is between the two.

i mean, when you get a vocalist with an unimpressive voice, and mix that with a vocalist with a horrible voice...

christ do i hate chris conley's music

[KidRobot]

Let's give them each one more record then decide.

There are a few very good songs on Sounds of Salvation but Lacey's lyrics are quite far ahead of Torres'.

I absolutely love American Low though.

[chipdip18]

i mean, when you get a vocalist with an unimpressive voice, and mix that with a vocalist with a horrible voice...

christ do i hate chris conley's music

Listen to the Two Tongues record.

There are a few very good songs on Sounds of Salvation but Lacey's lyrics are quite far ahead of Torres'.

I absolutely love American Low though.

I think Jesse Lacey's lyrics are put up high on a pedestal. That's just me though.

[funkel]

i mean, when you get a vocalist with an unimpressive voice, and mix that with a vocalist with a horrible voice...

christ do i hate chris conley's music
Elliott Smith doesn't have a good voice.

/dick

It's a fantastic film carried almost entirely by dialogue. It's a brilliantly acted film (though the cinematography was rather shallow. So many lingering shots and obtuse camera angles).
I'm a huge fan of long single shots and I like my fair share of Dutch angles.
And films based mostly on dialogue are the best. Godfather anyone?

[theguy77]

Listen to the Two Tongues record.

why? why would you subject me to such torture?

[funkel]

why? why would you subject me to such torture?
Bemis is your homeboy.

[theguy77]

Elliott Smith doesn't have a good voice.

/dick

sssssssssssooooooooooooooo? did i ever say it was anywhere?

/elitism fail is more like it

and dont pull out the "im just kidding with you man" card this time you know damn well what your intent was by saying this, i dont know who you're trying to impress but no one on this site is ever that blatant about it. seriously, you've really been pissing me off lately.

[chipdip18]

Elliott Smith doesn't have a good voice.

/dick


I'm a huge fan of long single shots and I like my fair share of Dutch angles.
And films based mostly on dialogue are the best. Godfather anyone?

Elliott Smith's voice is miles ahead of Chirs Conley's and Max Bemis'.

why? why would you subject me to such torture?

Because i was. Granted it was voluntary.

[theguy77]

Bemis is your homeboy.

chris shut the fuck up im not kidding with you

[KidRobot]

I think Jesse Lacey's lyrics are put up high on a pedestal. That's just me though.

They're not the best ever written but they're still miles ahead of Torres'.

[funkel]

chris shut the fuck up im not kidding with you
Ouch. Now that I thought was funny.
When you still rave about IRAB, I can make a statement like that.

Elliott Smith's voice is miles ahead of Chirs Conley's and Max Bemis'.

True.

sssssssssssooooooooooooooo? did i ever say it was anywhere?

/elitism fail is more like it

and dont pull out the "im just kidding with you man" card this time you know damn well what your intent was by saying this, i dont know who you're trying to impress but no one on this site is ever that blatant about it. seriously, you've really been pissing me off lately.
I would say this to anybody when they derail some artists on a consistent basis in a way that is borderline elitism, yet laud someone who I consider to be mediocre as well.
Relax, dude. It is all in good fun. I for real don't care what you like, but I'll tease you about it if I feel like it. Grow some balls.

[chipdip18]

They're not the best ever written but they're still miles ahead of Torres'.

Are you saying that Torres' lyrics are poor? They are far from it. And Lacey doesn't have lyrics miles ahead of Torres'. The only main difference is Lacey pointing at one theme directly in songs, and Torres' open approach to the interpertation of his lyrics. This is a bad way to argue, but i prefer the latter and find it more meaningful when i can listen to the lyrics and derive a meaning from them. It makes the songs more personal. I'll admit my reasoning is fairly subjective, but the purpose of this thread was to give Nick Torres some recognition when he's overshadowed by artists getting more credit for things he's done better.

[mycuban]

Elliott Smith doesn't have a good voice.



Elliott Smith is god.

[funkel]

Elliott Smith is god.
Would have to disagree.

[mycuban]

Would have to disagree.

thats respectable. how about "IMO Elliott Smith is god."

[kearn1tm]

Elliott Smith is god.

God opposes suicide.

[IWasaCamera]

Would have to disagree.
Anyone with functional ears should.

[funkel]

God opposes suicide.
Win.

thats respectable. how about "IMO Elliott Smith is god."
I would suggest you check out Iron & Wine and change your opinion.

[kearn1tm]

What an utterly dramatic way to off yourself though. Two knife jabs to the heart? Really? Smith should have been just overdosed on pills like an adult.

[mycuban]

Win.


I would suggest you check out Iron & Wine and change your opinion.


I like Iron and Wine, but i just can't help but find every Elliott Smith song awesome, it's just a preference, i like Iron and wine, just not as much as Elliott Smith.

[theguy77]

Ouch. Now that I thought was funny.
When you still rave about IRAB, I can make a statement like that.

I would say this to anybody when they derail some artists on a consistent basis in a way that is borderline elitism, yet laud someone who I consider to be mediocre as well.
Relax, dude. It is all in good fun. I for real don't care what you like, but I'll tease you about it if I feel like it. Grow some balls.

you've been going on and on with it lately and im fucking fed up with it, get off your high horse, music doesnt make you cool and neither does your condescension. there's a difference between the occassional joke (i.e. the crack kearn1tm took at my satirical usertitle) and just constant bashing. i even told you a week ago it gets aggravating yet you persist, but it's all in good fun right? we're still buddies right? stop trying to point out hypocrisy and/or pretentious nature in me because you thinking i blow my load over max bemis immediately lets me know that you dont know shit, in fact i JUST POSTED TODAY that i attribute the complexity of IARB far more toward tim o'heir the producer than max himself with the evidence of how shitty his other writing is, as well as talking about how he has a loud mouth and thinks hes more important to music than he is. you have no excuse to be mentioning that in an irrelvant thread nor do you have the credibility to discount any of the criticism/analysis i have for music, and for the love of god stop trying to be all friendly after that kind of behavior, fuck you, if a poster i used to enjoy wants to turn around and be an asshole to impress iwasacamera or whoever else in this thread is falsely perceived to be "an elitist" with "better taste" its going to piss me off. im not a hypocrite for outgrowing some scene music and otherwise hating the current direction it's taken, stop trying to call me out or say something poignant cause its really not working for you.

[kearn1tm]

thats respectable. how about "IMO Elliott Smith is god."

God doesn't kill himself. God makes a child through immaculate conception, tells him of a life that will invariably lead to his kid's death and has said kid knowingly live his life in a manner that will incite said public death to happen, which is, in it's own way, suicide.

So, did Smith have a kid who was groomed to commit suicide for his pop? That's the only way your statement makes sense.

[Adrian Villagomez]

i havent heard enough cassino to really give you an educated opinion as im sure torres's more "mature" songwriting would show me different attributes. but as it stands, my bias leans toward lacey because not only is brand new my favorite band (and i like TDAG even more now than i already did before, its very close to deja and might even top it now), but i think lacey is overall a better lyricist -- sure he writes one liners (damn good ones at that, one of the best one-liner writers in my opinion) but based on the lyrics on pollyanna, while torres showed definite potential in metaphorical writing, it was simply too vague and disconnected. with metaphorical writing you have to kind of connect each one in a common theme in order to make it a little more clear what you're trying to say.



yeah i dont know torres is good but i just really dont think he'd be able to reach oberst's lyrical prowess.This sounds about right.

[mycuban]

God doesn't kill himself. God makes a child through immaculate conception, tells him of a life that will invariably lead to his kid's death and has said kid knowingly live his life in a manner that will incite said public death to happen, which is, in it's own way, suicide.

So, did Smith have a kid who was groomed to commit suicide for his pop? That's the only way your statement makes sense.


it's called an exaggeration. sorry you took it so seriously.

[kearn1tm]

excessively long and irate post

Yeah, now tell him to stab himself in the heart...twice. Just like god would.

[IWasaCamera]

What an utterly dramatic way to off yourself though. Two knife jabs to the heart? Really? Smith should have been just overdosed on pills like an adult.
Agreed.
I like Iron and Wine, but i just can't help but find every Elliott Smith song awesome, it's just a preference, i like Iron and wine, just not as much as Elliott Smith.
Do you care about lyrics at all?


As for the bickering above, it'd take far more than belittling Max Bemis or Elliott Smith to impress IWasaCamera.

[funkel]

you've been going on and on with it lately and im fucking fed up with it, get off your high horse, music doesnt make you cool and neither does your condescension. i even told you a week ago it gets aggravating yet you persist, but it's all in good fun right? we're still buddies right? stop trying to point out hypocrisy and/or pretentious nature in me because you thinking i blow my load over max bemis immediately lets me know that you dont know shit, in fact i JUST POSTED TODAY that i attribute the complexity of IARB far more toward tim o'heir the producer than max himself with the evidence of how shitty his other writing is, as well as talking about how he has a loud mouth and thinks hes more important to music than he is. you have no excuse to be mentioning that in an irrelvant thread nor do you have the credibility to discount any of the criticism/analysis i have for music, and for the love of god stop trying to be all friendly after that kind of behavior, fuck you, if a poster i used to enjoy wants to turn around and be an asshole to impress iwasacamera or whoever else in this thread is falsely perceived to be "an elitist" with "better taste" its going to piss me off. im not a hypocrite for outgrowing some scene music and otherwise hating the current direction it's taken, stop trying to call me out or say something poignant cause its really not working for you.
If I truly offended you, then I apologize. I'm not trying to "impress" anyone, least of all Vinh, since his tastes are so picky, doing that is nigh near impossible.
On the hand of Say Anything, I would like to honestly tell you it was a joke, and the only reason I said it was because I saw your post about liking the production. Thus I thought it would be ironic to post something like "Bemis is your homeboy" as it isn't true.
Honestly, not trying to start a big thing here. If you're upset, I'm sorry.

[kearn1tm]

it's called an exaggeration. sorry you took it so seriously.

I did. I took it so seriously. I love god...even though he doesn't love us gays. I love god, Elliot Smith and Ruth Bader Ginsburg...and god...and Max Bemis...and Immanuel Kant.

[chipdip18]

What an utterly dramatic way to off yourself though. Two knife jabs to the heart? Really? Smith should have been just overdosed on pills like an adult.

Two knife jabs to the heart is the way to immortalize a career. Heath Ledger merely overdosed and The Dark Knight wasn't nominated for best picture.

[mycuban]

Agreed.

Do you care about lyrics at all?

As for the bickering above, it'd take far more than belittling Max Bemis or Elliott Smith to impress IWasaCamera.

Yes i care about lyrics very much. i just relate to Elliott's more. I like iron and wine's lyrics, too but Elliott Smith's are just easier for me to relate too.

[kearn1tm]

Agreed.

Do you care about lyrics at all?


As for the bickering above, it'd take far more than belittling Max Bemis or Elliott Smith to impress IWasaCamera.

What if they stabbed themselves in the heart. Would that impress you, Vinh? What does it take?! Someone go get Theguy77 a butchers knife.

[ape dos mil]

Nick Torres is a beast mainly because his voice on record = his voice in a live show. Can't say the same about the beloved Jesse Lacey.

[IWasaCamera]

Yes i care about lyrics very much. i just relate to Elliott's more. I like iron and wine's lyrics, too but Elliott Smith's are just easier for me to relate too.
I hope you recognize how vastly superior Beam is lyrically regardless of this relatability bias.

[funkel]

On the topic of Beam, the Shepherd Dog demos are so good. Some I think I prefer to the album versions.

[IWasaCamera]

What if they stabbed themselves in the heart. Would that impress you, Vinh? What does it take?! Someone go get Theguy77 a butchers knife.
It'd strike more of a chord with teenage girls than with me sadly.

[mycuban]

I hope you recognize how vastly superior Beam is lyrically regardless of this relatability bias.


You have your opinions i have mine.

[IWasaCamera]

You have your opinions i have mine.
You actually deem Smith the stronger lyricist? Holy shit.

[theguy77]

If I truly offended you, then I apologize. I'm not trying to "impress" anyone, least of all Vinh, since his tastes are so picky, doing that is nigh near impossible.
On the hand of Say Anything, I would like to honestly tell you it was a joke, and the only reason I said it was because I saw your post about liking the production. Thus I thought it would be ironic to post something like "Bemis is your homeboy" as it isn't true.
Honestly, not trying to start a big thing here. If you're upset, I'm sorry.

i just really dont see how else you expected me to take it, like "ha-ha i dont know anything about singing because i enjoyed one elliott smith album"? that's irony? no, that's you saying dont criticize chris conley when elliott smith is pretty much the same thing (although i was unaware they are ANYTHING alike, unless "music chris doesnt like anymore" is a genre). thats you attempting to nullify a distinction that i didnt even directly make, based on your own standards as if they were the end all be all. thats you making an assumption about my motives and intent when it comes to hearing new music by saying "dont try to distance yourself from two tongues by praising elliott smith, you're still a scene kid whose tastes havent matured." quite frankly, thats not what enjoyable discussion or verbal intercourse between friends consists of. me implying i abhorred what i'd heard of two tongues is a statement of opinion, not "borderline elitism", so you're not jokingly feeding me my own medicine.

i dont know how to make it any more clear to you than that, its just gone past the point of a friendly joke and gotten to the point where it looks like you're just trying to humiliate me or show me up in every thread i post in. its not often that something pisses me off, but ive already told you a week before now that it does, and put up with it time after time, so if you want to remain cordial you need to respect that and lay off it.

[funkel]

i just really dont see how else you expected me to take it, like "ha-ha i dont know anything about singing because i enjoyed one elliott smith album"? that's irony? no, that's you saying dont criticize chris conley when elliott smith is pretty much the same thing (although i was unaware they are ANYTHING alike, unless "music chris doesnt like anymore" is a genre). thats you attempting to nullify a distinction that i didnt even directly make, based on your own standards as if they were the end all be all. thats you making an assumption about my motives and intent when it comes to hearing new music by saying "dont try to distance yourself from two tongues by praising elliott smith, you're still a scene kid whose tastes havent matured." quite frankly, thats not what enjoyable discussion or verbal intercourse between friends consists of. me implying i abhorred what i'd heard of two tongues is a statement of opinion, not "borderline elitism", so you're not jokingly feeding me my own medicine.

i dont know how to make it any more clear to you than that, its just gone past the point of a friendly joke and gotten to the point where it looks like you're just trying to humiliate me or show me up in every thread i post in. its not often that something pisses me off, but ive already told you a week before now that it does, and put up with it time after time, so if you want to remain cordial you need to respect that and lay off it.
Alright, I will do so. Sorry I made things unpleasant.

[funkel]

You actually deem Smith the stronger lyricist? Holy shit.
Strongest Beam album lyrically?

[IWasaCamera]

Strongest Beam album lyrically?
The Shepherd's Dog probably.

[funkel]

The Shepherd's Dog probably.
I'd probably agree. Although I'm currently listening to Sodom, South Georgia. Totally forgot how incredible that track is.

[chipdip18]

The Shepherd's Dog is probably my favorite in general.

[theguy77]

Alright, I will do so. Sorry I made things unpleasant.

alright man, as long as you can do that, we're cool.

[kearn1tm]

That whole episode was the most unmanly weak ass thing I've read on this website. Keep your feelings to yourself, you're posting on a website.

Or stab yourself in the heart to get all that emotion out...twice...with a knife made of complexity.

...

I just wanted to be included.

[IWasaCamera]

Complex knives for greater depth.

[theguy77]

That whole episode was the most unmanly weak ass thing I've read on this website. Keep your feelings to yourself, you're posting on a website.

:shrug: hey, women love a sensitive man. by letting my feelings out on the internet i get more cybersex than you could imagine.

[chipdip18]

Or stab yourself in the heart to get all that emotion out...twice...with a knife made of complexity.

...

I just wanted to be included.

Two knife jabs to the heart is the way to immortalize a career. Heath Ledger merely overdosed and The Dark Knight wasn't nominated for best picture.

I also want to be included. Apparently Two knife jabs > overdose.

[kearn1tm]

Complex knives for greater depth.

Are you writing song titles for the latest Blessthefall album?

[Chromefox]

Women say a lot of things, frequently it's something different from what they really think. It's true. Just ask me. Except I'd lie.

[theguy77]

Women say a lot of things, frequently it's something different from what they really think.

hence why i didnt stop after she said no.

...is that bad?

[Chromefox]

hence why i didnt stop after she said no.

...is that bad? :lol:

[kearn1tm]

:shrug: hey, women love a sensitive man. by letting my feelings out on the internet i get more cybersex than you could imagine.

...

I also want to be included. Apparently Two knife jabs > overdose.

If you're a 17 year old girl writing about the "greatest songwriter ever" in her super cool diary of angst and blossoming women parts....

...that may be the most misogynistic thing I've typed on this site.

Back to the point, stabbing yourself in the heart twice to end your life is like placing a few eggs and cheese in a blender, starting a small fire within the blender then placing that blender in a NASA shuttle simulator to make an omelet.

Pills. It's not messy. It leaves you looking relatively dignified (you pass out first, so you look rested and peaceful).

[IWasaCamera]

Are you writing song titles for the latest Blessthefall album?
Do I get royalties?

[theguy77]

i wonder how painful it is to stab yourself in the heart, and whether the first stab would be painful enough to normally discourage you from stabbing yourself again.

....

curiosity killed the ryan

[Broken Parachute]

I'm so biased, but I so agree.

[kearn1tm]

Do I get royalties?

No, but you get an Alt Press sidebar, comped Diesel jeans and more underage "straight-edge" scene girls with daddy issues than you can shake a pink star wristband at.

[kearn1tm]

i wonder how painful it is to stab yourself in the heart, and whether the first stab would be painful enough to normally discourage you from stabbing yourself again.

....

curiosity killed the ryan

Save it for the sensitive diary.

[chipdip18]

...



If you're a 17 year old girl writing about the "greatest songwriter ever" in her super cool diary of angst and blossoming women parts....

...that may be the most misogynistic thing I've typed on this site.

Back to the point, stabbing yourself in the heart twice to end your life is like placing a few eggs and cheese in a blender, starting a small fire within the blender then placing that blender in a NASA shuttle simulator to make an omelet.

Pills. It's not messy. It leaves you looking relatively dignified (you pass out first, so you look rested and peaceful).

In terms of efficiency then i would absolutely agree, but stabbing yourself in the heart twice evokes a much more passionate response from others who hear about it. He went the whole length to grab a knife, and thrust it into his own body not only once, but twice. I'm sure that is interperted as someone who is undergoing more severe depression and to counter it is using a more severe method. All the gore in the scene would usher gasp of horror and disgust at the scene, adding much more drama whereas i'm sure seeing a person looking peaceful on the floor cuts straight to the point that death occurred. I'd imagine that more drama = more press coverage = further immortalization of a career.

[IWasaCamera]

No, but you get an Alt Press sidebar, comped Diesel jeans and more underage "straight-edge" scene girls with daddy issues than you can shake a pink star wristband at.
What horrid compensation, maybe Atreyu will be more generous.

[fadedmemories]

epic thread is epic

[KidRobot]

Are you saying that Torres' lyrics are poor? They are far from it.

Pretty sure I said nothing even close to that.

And Lacey doesn't have lyrics miles ahead of Torres'. The only main difference is Lacey pointing at one theme directly in songs, and Torres' open approach to the interpertation of his lyrics. This is a bad way to argue, but i prefer the latter and find it more meaningful when i can listen to the lyrics and derive a meaning from them. It makes the songs more personal.

Lacey writes about albeit more typical themes that are deeper then Torres'.

I'll admit my reasoning is fairly subjective, but the purpose of this thread was to give Nick Torres some recognition when he's overshadowed by artists getting more credit for things he's done better.

Cassino is on their first CD and Northstar could've exploded with another record.

[kevinrocks409]

Nick Torres is really great.

[jtsnazzy]

His voice is no better than average.

[airik625]

I agree with the thread title.

I am very anxiously awaiting the new Cassino album.

[Rodeo]

I did. I took it so seriously. I love god...even though he doesn't love us gays. I love god, Elliot Smith and Ruth Bader Ginsburg...and god...and Max Bemis...and Immanuel Kant.


God loves gays.


It's the fanatical 'Christians' who try to interrupt the outdated Jewish law that don't love gays.




Fuck those bigots.

[chipdip18]

Pretty sure I said nothing even close to that.



Lacey writes about albeit more typical themes that are deeper then Torres'.



Cassino is on their first CD and Northstar could've exploded with another record.

My mistake, i read something wrong.

Then what would you consider Torres' themes?

Still overlooked in my opinion. Nick Torres has been around as long as Lacey and longer than other artists in both fields getting more recognition.

[chipdip18]

His voice is no better than average.

Tells you a litte something about the other artists doesn't it?

[tbsnismo]

This is ridiculous. It is all based on opinion. What lyrics connect to your own personal life, and what style of vocals you like personally. It is impossible to say one person is better than another because it is your opinion.

[Rodeo]

This is ridiculous. It is all based on opinion. What lyrics connect to your own personal life, and what style of vocals you like personally. It is impossible to say one person is better than another because it is your opinion.

you signed up for an account to post that? It is my OPINION that it was kind of pathetic to do that.

[IWasaCamera]

But we've never seen that whole "it's all personal preference omg" angle before. It's as profound as it is necessary.

[theguy77]

This is ridiculous. It is all based on opinion. What lyrics connect to your own personal life, and what style of vocals you like personally. It is impossible to say one person is better than another because it is your opinion.

sweet lets all stop discussing music to avoid stepping on other people's toes, that would definitely make this site more enjoyable. despite the fact that it would erase more than half the reason to post on here. brilliant innovation by the guy who just got here.

[xJesusFreakx]

Taylor Swift > everyone mentioned in this thread.

[theguy77]

hahahahahahahahaha

why? why is it ALWAYS taylor swift? its so laughable now.

[theguy77]

hahahahaha taylor swift > conor oberst.

[xJesusFreakx]

I'm actually surprised that Dustin Kensrue hasn't been brought up yet... Every other important AP.net name has. Though, really, even he doesn't compare to Taylor Swift.

[theguy77]

dude if i wasnt positive that this is a joke account i would be laughing harder

[chipdip18]

Taylor Swift > everyone mentioned in this thread.

Either you are being serious and have a sick obsession with a poor Pop/Country singer who has shallow lyrics and a pretty face, or you are overplaying the same joke in every thread.

[xJesusFreakx]

Wait, me, a joke account? No, I just realize the absurdity of all mankind, including myself, and I don't care to hide it to look good.

[theguy77]

Either you are being serious and have a sick obsession with a poor Pop/Country singer who has shallow lyrics and a pretty face, or you are overplaying the same joke in every thread.

hahaha pretty face? i wont even give her that much.

[theguy77]

http://img2.timeinc.net/people/i/2008/specials/beauties/beauties/taylor_swift2.jpg

[chipdip18]

hahaha pretty face? i wont even give her that much.

http://img2.timeinc.net/people/i/2008/specials/beauties/beauties/taylor_swift2.jpg


Being a female then? Whatever. Taylor Swift is bad. Water is wet.

[xJesusFreakx]

Either you are being serious and have a sick obsession with a poor Pop/Country singer who has shallow lyrics and a pretty face, or you are overplaying the same joke in every thread.

A little bit of both? I honestly think that she's really good for what she is, but I'm also usually half kidding when I mention her. She's nothing revolutionary, but she's not bad. Oh, and if I'm overplaying that joke, then I sincerely apologize for my stale sense of humor, though I think it was fitting in this thread.

[chipdip18]

A little bit of both? I honestly think that she's really good for what she is, but I'm also usually half kidding when I mention her. She's nothing revolutionary, but she's not bad. Oh, and if I'm overplaying that joke, then I sincerely apologize for my stale sense of humor, though I think it was fitting in this thread.

It's fine, but i think the only times i've run into you is when Taylor Swift was being discussed. Well she can sing better than most of the guys here, but her lyrics are shallow and specifically catered, which hinders artistic value. Yes, she's a great Pop/Country artists for 11-15 year old girls all over the world, and very radio-friendly. I could say similar things about Lil Wayne also, but i still can't stand both artists haha.

[theguy77]

Being a female then? Whatever. Taylor Swift is bad. Water is wet.

well said

even singing-wise, like shes not like carrie underwood or anything with a prodigy voice, she just sounds like an 18 year old girl who can sing on pitch. there are millions of those out there, probably close to half of which are just as attractive as she is if not more attractive

[kearn1tm]

God loves gays.

He loves everyone in spite of their sins.

Of course, considering my biological predisposition towards finding only men sexually attractive a sin is ludicrous, but then much about organized religion is inane.


It's the fanatical 'Christians' who try to interrupt the outdated Jewish law that don't love gays.

Well:

Leviticus 18:22

'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.'

Leviticus 20:13

'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.'

It's interesting that most of the support for some kind of hatred against homosexuality is in Leviticus - the same book which says that adulterers (both the man and women) should both be put to death, has a whole host of stupid issues with hygiene (seriously, it's weird), and more.

Also of note is that it's in the Old Testament - the rules which the Christians say don't count any more, because there's the NEW Testament...


[quote]Fuck those bigots.

I'd rather fuck men who weren't idiots, but I get the jist.

[jtsnazzy]

Tells you a litte something about the other artists doesn't it?

Very true. Most of the vocalists praised here can't sing for shit.

[xJesusFreakx]

It's fine, but i think the only times i've run into you is when Taylor Swift was being discussed. Well she can sing better than most of the guys here, but her lyrics are shallow and specifically catered, which hinders artistic value. Yes, she's a great Pop/Country artists for 11-15 year old girls all over the world, and very radio-friendly. I could say similar things about Lil Wayne also, but i still can't stand both artists haha.

I can't stand Lil Wayne either, though his voice can be entertaining. (Sadly, the same qualities that sometimes make him interesting also sometimes make him as irritating as nails on a chalkboard.) From what I've been told, though, his mix tapes aren't bad.

Very true. Most of the vocalists praised here can't sing for shit.

People like voices that sound "different." There is a massive over saturation of just about every genre, so people are more easily drawn to artists who sound different. This can be a positive or negative aspect.

For example, the spoken word of Aaron Weiss is a major strength of mewithoutYou, at least in my mind. On the other hand, I find Max Bemis and Chris Conley to be rather irritating. (I don't mind Anthony Green, but only in small doses, which may be why I like TSOAF but not Circa Survive.)

[tbsnismo]

you signed up for an account to post that? It is my OPINION that it was kind of pathetic to do that.

Yes, I joined just to post that. Are you really that stupid? I joined, then I looked around the forums and found this thread and decided to comment on it. I understand it is enjoyable to debate about things like this, but when it is based on opinion only there will never be a real answer.

[IWasaCamera]

Nearly all discussions here are predicated on opinion. Are you going to enter each one and rehash the same, tired notion?

[Yes. And?]

:shrug:

[bludgeoner]

What should I listen to for said Nick Torres enjoyment?

[IWasaCamera]

Iron & Wine.

[kearn1tm]

Marissa Nadler.

She's much better than virtually everyone in this thread (with the exception of Beam).

[IWasaCamera]

Agreed.

Listen to Will Oldham while you're at it.

[theguy77]

Yes, I joined just to post that. Are you really that stupid? I joined, then I looked around the forums and found this thread and decided to comment on it. I understand it is enjoyable to debate about things like this, but when it is based on opinion only there will never be a real answer.

right so this whole site is pointless. theres no discussion to be had because it's all opinion and nothing is answered. lets all delete our accounts and get "lives".

[kearn1tm]

Agreed.

Listen to Will Oldham while you're at it.

Throw in Damien Jurado and that's a nice singer-songwriter sandwich.

[IWasaCamera]

With a side of Bill Callahan, scrumptious.

[kearn1tm]

With a side of Bill Callahan, scrumptious.

Well, then you'd need a Vashti Bunyan dipping sauce to compliment the side.

[theguy77]

okay jeez i know im eating out of a dumpster you guys dont have to rub it in with your gourmet meals, have you any compassion for the destitute?

[kearn1tm]

okay jeez i know im eating out of a dumpster you guys dont have to rub it in with your gourmet meals, have you any compassion for the destitute?

No. Vinh and I just gave threw out some good stuff. Go download now...Elliot Smith is dead. Smog is still awesome and Nadler is still making records. Only shitty artists are dead (and most of the luminaries are actually alive in a hidden bunker below Area 51).

[IWasaCamera]

Well, then you'd need a Vashti Bunyan dipping sauce to compliment the side.
Finally, Nick Drake and his elemental imagery to chase it all down.

[kearn1tm]

Finally, Nick Drake and his elemental imagery to chase it all down.

It's not a beverage without a Baez cherry on top.

[IWasaCamera]

It's not a beverage without a Baez cherry on top.
The leftover dipping sauce (i.e. Devendra Banhart) can also be used in a light dessert to finish things off.

[Dr. Acula]

:shrug:

Whooooa. Havent seen you around here in forever.

[kearn1tm]

The leftover dipping sauce (i.e. Devendra Banhart) can also be used in a light dessert to finish things off.

I'm partial to drizzling the sauce over a little accompanying Joanna Newsom to make a delicate chocolate souffle.

[IWasaCamera]

I'm partial to drizzling the sauce over a little accompanying Joanna Newsom to make a delicate chocolate souffle.
Could never quite stomach Newsom.

[theguy77]

haha todd you ruined vinh's cuisine.

[Use me!]

I somewhat agree. Nick Torres uses images like a champ but I wouldn't say that he's more poetic than Oberst or even Lacey.

[Rodeo]

He loves everyone in spite of their sins.

Of course, considering my biological predisposition towards finding only men sexually attractive a sin is ludicrous, but then much about organized religion is inane.


[quote]It's the fanatical 'Christians' who try to interrupt the outdated Jewish law that don't love gays.

Well:

Leviticus 18:22

'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.'

Leviticus 20:13

'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.'

It's interesting that most of the support for some kind of hatred against homosexuality is in Leviticus - the same book which says that adulterers (both the man and women) should both be put to death, has a whole host of stupid issues with hygiene (seriously, it's weird), and more.

Also of note is that it's in the Old Testament - the rules which the Christians say don't count any more, because there's the NEW Testament...




I'd rather fuck men who weren't idiots, but I get the jist.


yeah, leviticus.... that's why i said 'outdated jewish law'. :-p

[Yes. And?]

Whooooa. Havent seen you around here in forever.
I come around once in a while. I'd like to start posting regularly again.

[Dr. Acula]

I come around once in a while. I'd like to start posting regularly again.

Do it :nod: the music forum misses your sass.

[Yes. And?]

Sass? I'm nothing but goodness and light!

[kearn1tm]

Could never quite stomach Newsom.

This meal was going so well, Vinh.

[kearn1tm]

yeah, leviticus.... that's why i said 'outdated jewish law'. :-p

Well yeah...that's why I posted it.

Your quoting abilities are poor, but I'll forgive you...in time.

[Rodeo]

Well yeah...that's why I posted it.

Your quoting abilities are poor, but I'll forgive you...in time.



Thanks, I appreciate it! :-p



<33

[IWasaCamera]

This meal was going so well, Vinh.
Even if the dessert was an acquired taste, I'd say the meal was a success.

[Loch_Doun]

Max Bemis, seriously???
He's way at the bottom of the vocal totem pole with Sinister Batman or whatever the fuck his name is from Avenged Sevenfold.

[theguy77]

oh come on max kinda sucks but theres people way below that -- conley, for example.

[fadedmemories]

lol wut @ the last 20 posts in this thread

[Use me!]

oh come on max kinda sucks but theres people way below that -- conley, for example.
Conley is still a step up from Brandon Flowers and company. I enjoy Conley's lyrics in his first 3 albums.

[funkel]

Max Bemis, seriously???
He's way at the bottom of the vocal totem pole with Sinister Batman or whatever the fuck his name is from Avenged Sevenfold.
I chuckled.

[tbsnismo]

right so this whole site is pointless. theres no discussion to be had because it's all opinion and nothing is answered. lets all delete our accounts and get "lives".

Sure, if you want. The reason I joined was to find out about new bands and news about the bands and artists I like, not to get into arguments on forums. I wasn't dissing anyone for saying one person is a more talented singer than another, I'm just saying that it is all pointless to me. If I voice my opinion on who I think is better, I will get bashed by dozens of other people because they don't agree. But, by all means share your opinions, I really don't care.

[fadedmemories]

Conley is still a step up from Brandon Flowers and company. I enjoy Conley's lyrics in his first 3 albums.
Obviously, The Killers isn't exactly synonymous with great lyrics.

[Just An End]

I definitely think Nick Torres deserves much more attention than he receives, but more for his voice than his lyrics. Frankly, they just don't make sense sometimes (and I'm a huge Northstar fan). Did he write the music for Northstar too? Some of their melodies are pretty fucking good.

[Use me!]

I definitely think Nick Torres deserves much more attention than he receives, but more for his voice than his lyrics. Frankly, they just don't make sense sometimes (and I'm a huge Northstar fan). Did he write the music for Northstar too? Some of their melodies are pretty fucking good.
His lyrics don't make sense to you, maybe. They do make sense to some people who practice something called "higher" level thinking.

[GuitarR0cker1]

oh come on max kinda sucks but theres people way below that -- conley, for example.
At writing lyrics, but when it comes to music, on average, conley beats bemis.

[Use me!]

At writing lyrics, but when it comes to music, on average, conley beats bemis.
Ehh. Depends on which album you're talking about. I don't really enjoy Say Anything, but I'd argue that IARB is better than In Reverie at all levels.

[Velvetground]

You guys are high, Saves The Day destroy Say Anything.

[Use me!]

You guys are high, Saves The Day destroy Say Anything.
I agree, but it's mostly out of nostalgic pastimes. I see how somebody could prefer Say Anything.

[kearn1tm]

His lyrics don't make sense to you, maybe. They do make sense to some people who practice something called "higher" level thinking.

This is why artists like Torres and Lacey have followings. His lyrics consist of empty metaphors devoid of actual meaning, in that they're cryptic for the sake of being cryptic. When a songwriter like Mangum uses symbolism, metaphor, allegories and other literary tools of expression, he does so to say a very succinct statement in a creative way. Torres and Lacey have so many throw-away lines that are meant to sound poetic but ultimately say nothing. It's not economical, it's lazy writing desperately trying to be something greater than it is. It's no different than the kid writing an essay on a topic he doesn't understand and cramming in as many five dollar words as possible to mask the lack of substance.

[Use me!]

This is why artists like Torres and Lacey have followings. His lyrics consist of empty metaphors devoid of actual meaning, in that they're cryptic for the sake of being cryptic. When a songwriter like Mangum uses symbolism, metaphor, allegories and other literary tools of expression, he does so to say a very succinct statement in a creative way. Torres and Lacey have so many throw-away lines that are meant to sound poetic but ultimately say nothing. It's not economical, it's lazy writing desperately trying to be something greater than it is. It's no different than the kid writing an essay on a topic he doesn't understand and cramming in as many five dollar words as possible to mask the lack of substance.
Yeah, but, wouldn't you agree that any form of poetry should be interpreted at a personal level? I wouldn't exactly put Lacey and Torres in the same category, but I understand the comparison. There have been times when I would listen to Pollyanna and seriously think that the album was the meaning of life. I achieved this with some Trophy Scars recently, too. Even if Torres wrote Pollyanna with random metaphors, it still made sense to me at an extremely high level.

[kearn1tm]

Yeah, but, wouldn't you agree that any form of poetry should be interpreted at a personal level? I wouldn't exactly put Lacey and Torres in the same category, but I understand the comparison. There have been times when I would listen to Pollyanna and seriously think that the album was the meaning of life. I achieved this with some Trophy Scars recently, too. Even if Torres wrote Pollyanna with random metaphors, it still made sense to me at an extremely high level.

What you, the listener, attach to the lyrics has nothing to do with "higher level of thought." You're merely projecting yourself into the lyrics, which increases your fondness of the songs. Anyone can do that with any lyric. That has nothing to do with being an analytical music listener. Despite what you attach to these songs, the lyrics are still hollow and say nothing in the most pretentious way possible. It's ostentatious pseudo-poetry that's hollow and without meaning. If you can read what you want into it, fine, but that doesn't change the nature of the work, nor does it indicate you think "at a higher level." If anything, you're deluding yourself into thinking these lyrics are greater or more meaningful than they are simply because you have a personal connection to them.

EDIT - I'm not trying to insult you here, but I vehemently disagree

[chipdip18]

What you, the listener, attach to the lyrics has nothing to do with "higher level of thought." You're merely projecting yourself into the lyrics, which increases your fondness of the songs. Anyone can do that with any lyric. That has nothing to do with being an analytical music listener. Despite what you attach to these songs, the lyrics are still hollow and say nothing in the most pretentious way possible. It's ostentatious pseudo-poetry that's hollow and without meaning.

Anyone could do that with any song but some lyrics are explicit to the point where interpeting them any other way is just intentional stupidity.

[kearn1tm]

Anyone could do that with any song but some lyrics are explicit to the point where interpeting them any other way is just intentional stupidity.

Sure, yet some have a very distinct meaning yet require the listener to "work" for it, or use analytical thought to interpret (a Mangum or a Darnielle for example). Others spew metaphor, symbolism, etc. without an implicit thought or reason, which adds nothing to a song and often detracts from whatever prevailing subtext is running through the track's lyrics. It's like the kid who strums on his acoustic guitar singing about straight-forward heartbreak and hears Two Headed Boy pt. 2 for the first time and desperately wants to imitate that, but doesn't have much to say.

Ultimately, the point is, a poster chastised another poster for not understanding Torres' lyrics because, to do so requires a "higher level of thought." I disagree, in that, there isn't much implicit meaning or substance behind his lyrics. If anything, to distinguish between empty literary devices and those used to convey actual sentiments of importance is what actually requires a much more thoughtful, analytical level of thought.

[Use me!]

What you, the listener, attach to the lyrics has nothing to do with "higher level of thought." You're merely projecting yourself into the lyrics, which increases your fondness of the songs. Anyone can do that with any lyric. That has nothing to do with being an analytical music listener. Despite what you attach to these songs, the lyrics are still hollow and say nothing in the most pretentious way possible. It's ostentatious pseudo-poetry that's hollow and without meaning.
I agree. If you scroll back one page, you'll see that I criticize his poetic ability. Empty or not, Torres is still at the top of the crop at generating imagery, in my opinion. If you don't agree, I'm up for some recommendations. But, since I was personally able to attach to his images at a high level, his lyrics, to me, are brilliant. Even if they are full of shit.

Edit: 2 pages.

[chipdip18]

Sure, yet some have a very distinct meaning yet require the listener to "work" for it, or use analytical thought to interpret (a Mangum or a Darnielle for example). Others spew metaphor, symbolism, etc. without an implicit thought or reason, which adds nothing to a song and often detracts from whatever prevailing subtext is running through the track's lyrics. It's like the kid who strums on his acoustic guitar singing about straight-forward heartbreak and hears Two Headed Boy pt. 2 for the first time and desperately wants to imitate that, but doesn't have much to say. Mmm i see what you mean. The last sentenced provides a good example for the case.

Ultimately, the point is, a poster chastised another poster for not understanding Torres' lyrics because, to do so requires a "higher level of thought." I disagree, in that, there isn't much implicit meaning or substance behind his lyrics. If anything, to distinguish between empty literary devices and those used to convey actual sentiments of importance is what actually requires a much more thoughtful, analytical level of thought.

I would disagree with that claim of "higher level of thought" too. But it's a step above shallow lyrics. It's an awkward midpoint between bad and great lyrics i'd say.

[kearn1tm]

I agree. If you scroll back one page, you'll see that I criticize his poetic ability. Empty or not, Torres is still at the top of the crop at generating imagery, in my opinion. If you don't agree, I'm up for some recommendations. But, since I was personally able to attach to his images at a high level, his lyrics, to me, are brilliant. Even if they are full of shit.

Edit: 2 pages.

It appears that he writes ambiguously enough that you can "fill in the blanks" which is fine, but your definition of brilliance varies heavily from mine.

As for contemporary songwriters that create a palpable sense of imagery in their lyrics, I'd direct you to Freak Folk writers. Their ability to generate a setting is uncanny, mostly due to the naturalistic themes that run through their lyrics (Devendra Banhart, Joanna Newsom, Vashti Bunyan, Ben Chasny).

Contemporary Americana songwriters/acts are also quite good at painting vivid pictures in the mind, which, again, I suspect can be attributed to the naturalism/connection with nature that's inherent in such lyrics (The War on Drugs, The Mountain Goats, My Morning Jacket, The Tallest Man on Earth).

[kearn1tm]

I would disagree with that claim of "higher level of thought" too. But it's a step above shallow lyrics. It's an awkward midpoint between bad and great lyrics i'd say.

I don't find it better than "shallow lyrics," because they're no different. Their lack of depth is merely masked by flowery prose which gives artist and fanbase an inflated sense of the lyrics' worth. It's pretension at its worse.

[Use me!]

It appears that he writes ambiguously enough that you can "fill in the blanks" which is fine, but your definition of brilliance varies heavily from mine.

As for contemporary songwriters that create a palpable sense of imagery in their lyrics, I'd direct you to Freak Folk writers. Their ability to generate a setting is uncanny, mostly due to the naturalistic themes that run through their lyrics (Devendra Banhart, Joanna Newsom, Vashti Bunyan, Ben Chasny).

Contemporary Americana songwriters/acts are also quite good at painting vivid pictures in the mind, which, again, I suspect can be attributed to the naturalism/connection with nature that's inherent in such lyrics (The War on Drugs, The Mountain Goats, My Morning Jacket, The Tallest Man on Earth).
Thanks, I'll check them out.

[kearn1tm]

Thanks, I'll check them out.

I hope you're able to find something you enjoy.

[chipdip18]

I don't find it better than "shallow lyrics," because they're no different. Their lack of depth is merely masked by flowery prose which gives artist and fanbase an inflated sense of the lyrics' worth. It's pretension at its worse.

The way i see it is that an attempt at better, meaningful lyrics, which may come across as empty, or an individual song with results with many, small, unillustrated messages, is better than no attempt at anything artistic at all, and simple relying on word play to sound clever.

[GuitarR0cker1]

I don't find it better than "shallow lyrics," because they're no different. Their lack of depth is merely masked by flowery prose which gives artist and fanbase an inflated sense of the lyrics' worth. It's pretension at its worse.
I have to disagree, even though there isn't much meaning in Jesse Lacey's lyrics, there is certainly more than in lyrics from the average pop punk band's lyrics. It might not be much more but bands like Northstar, and Brand New make up the middle ground between your Auditions and your Cursives.

[kearn1tm]

The way i see it is that an attempt at better, meaningful lyrics, which may come across as empty, or an individual song with results with many, small, unillustrated messages, is better than no attempt at anything artistic at all, and simple relying on word play to sound clever.

They would have been better lyrics without the affection. Had Torres wrote in a much more straight-forward manner, his songs would benefit from it. Even some of the best songwriters pen straight-forward and lucid lyrics. The only thing that makes literary tools work in lyrics is if there's a use of them or meaning. Otherwise, it's wasted words that detract from the actual meaning of the song. It's gibberish, flowery gibberish, but gibberish nonetheless.

[kearn1tm]

I have to disagree, even though there isn't much meaning in Jesse Lacey's lyrics, there is certainly more than in lyrics from the average pop punk band's lyrics. It might not be much more but bands like Northstar, and Brand New make up the middle ground between your Auditions and your Cursives.

Lacey says everything, say, an Adam Larazza does but filtered through a fetish for Pavement and Neutral. I don't find him lyrically superior to most contemporary scene Powerpop bands. His arrangements are more intricate, in that they ape his influences to moderate success, but lyrically? Nah.

[ShimmerAndSpill]

This thread is full of truth. Nick Torres is by far one of my favorite song writers.

[chipdip18]

They would have been better lyrics without the affection. Had Torres wrote in a much more straight-forward manner, his songs would benefit from it. Even some of the best songwriters pen straight-forward and lucid lyrics. The only thing that makes literary tools work in lyrics is if there's a use of them or meaning. Otherwise, it's wasted words that detract from the actual meaning of the song. It's gibberish, flowery gibberish, but gibberish nonetheless.

Alright i've got a pretty firm grasp on what you are saying now, and i'd agree. Although personally, i enjoy interpeting lyrics to a certain degree, which is why i like Nick Torres as a lyricist (though yes, he can be empty). It makes it more relateable in a way. Hopefully that was his intention, not just to string together cool sounding words.

[theguy77]

Alright i've got a pretty firm grasp on what you are saying now, and i'd agree. Although personally, i enjoy interpeting lyrics to a certain degree, which is why i like Nick Torres as a lyricist (though yes, he can be empty). It makes it more relateable in a way. Hopefully that was his intention, not just to string together cool sounding words.

right on, i would refrain from calling a writer pretentious unless theres some clear cut evidence that they fabricate meanings to unrelated words in order to look more intelligent, and that is very hard to prove. heck i know some writers who like to leave loose metaphors open-ended just for the sake of leaving it up for interpretation, and yeah not everyone is jeff mangum but what's wrong with aspiring to reach that level even if you're not capable? there's no sense in dumbing your lyrics down just for the sake of complacency within how OTHER people perceive your lyrics; in fact i think it's a writer's responsibility to push the boundaries of their potential, how can you possibly improve otherwise? and whose place is it to put a limit on your potential? unless you specifically say "im starting to write on a level of mangum and beam these days" i dont think you can call that pretention -- how can you say a writer thinks hes better than he is, when you have no idea how highly he thinks of his talent? trying to be better than you are is what you're SUPPOSED to do in order to progress.

[kearn1tm]

right on, i would refrain from calling a writer pretentious unless theres some clear cut evidence that they fabricate meanings to unrelated words in order to look more intelligent, and that is very hard to prove. heck i know some writers who like to leave loose metaphors open-ended just for the sake of leaving it up for interpretation, and yeah not everyone is jeff mangum but what's wrong with aspiring to reach that level even if you're not capable? there's no sense in dumbing your lyrics down just for the sake of complacency within how OTHER people perceive your lyrics; in fact i think it's a writer's responsibility to push the boundaries of their potential,

how can you possibly improve otherwise? and whose place is it to put a limit on your potential? unless you specifically say "im starting to write on a level of mangum and beam these days" i dont think you can call that pretention -- how can you say a writer thinks hes better than he is, when you have no idea how highly he thinks of his talent? trying to be better than you are is what you're SUPPOSED to do in order to progress.

When they say nothing with ostentatious diction.

[GuitarR0cker1]

Lacey says everything, say, an Adam Larazza does but filtered through a fetish for Pavement and Neutral. I don't find him lyrically superior to most contemporary scene Powerpop bands. His arrangements are more intricate, in that they ape his influences to moderate success, but lyrically? Nah.
I mostly agree but he certainly seems to write about a few more complex issues than Larazza does. I admit his lyrics are really nothing to be in awe of but if he wrote exactly like he did on Your Favorite Weapon they would not fit his music. I give him credit for trying and he does succeed in some places in writing about more complex topics.

[theguy77]

When they say nothing with ostentatious diction.

by "nothing" do you mean "essentially nothing", as in "something unimportant", or do you actually mean them literally babbling with zero meaning at all? id find it quite hard to believe that writers like lacey and torres dont have any meaning they're attempting to convey, regardless whether the meaning is trivial or not im sure there is one.

[speakhandsforme]

Lyrically and musically, I'll take Lacey and Bemis first.

He does have the singing voice edge out of the four, though.

[Blueskyburning]

shit on my shoe > nick torres, anthony green, max bemis, jesse lacey and other "big name" scene acts

[5P3NC312]

How can you compare any of these "big scene acts" to Max Bemis?

He has more lyrical and musical capability than any of those guys and writes more complex and thoughtful music.

[Burn That Shit]

How can you compare any of these "big scene acts" to Max Bemis?

He has more lyrical and musical capability than any of those guys and writes more complex and thoughtful music.

lol

[chipdip18]

huge n00b.

[El_Jeffe]

get in here jacob!

http://www.absolutepunk.net/showthread.php?t=898582

more people need to take part & i know you have great taste

[chipdip18]

get in here jacob!

http://www.absolutepunk.net/showthread.php?t=898582

more people need to take part & i know you have great taste

Alright i'm there!

[fly_guy]

I luv max bemis moar!!1!!

[handlikesecret]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Top_5_Torres