A question

[A picasso blue]

I have asked this in some other threads in this part of the forum, but it seems to go ignored. so I will say it again here:


I want to ask something of all those here who support the current administration and it's occupation of Iraq. why aren't you in the army? Arent'y you going to enlist? If you support the war so much why don't you do show it by fighting along the soldiers? This is not necessarily my opinion but one which I have heard someone bring up. Discuss

[Cal Smith]

I'll give a general response to save others from answering such a narrow-minded question.

Many people arent in the service for many different reasons. First, joining the military is a major life choice. Sure you can have a career afterwards but your life is completely changed or years and years. You might have other pursuits you are interested in such as college, marriage, sports, etc..., etc...... Others are unable to get into the service for physical reasons. Also there are other options than just joining the army if you wish to help the effort.

Also the reason why your question is absurd is because you are assuming simply because you support something means you must go out and fight for it. I'm against abortion but you don't find me in front of clinics protesting. Same goes for many other things.

Do you support the insurgents rebellion against coalition forces? If you do perhaps you should be asking yourself why you don't help them? See how absurd that is.................

[siberianxkiss]

that was a silly question

its also just as stupid when people say if you dont support the war, then you're not supporting the troops.

[PunkRocks]

I would sign-up if I were not currently in the middle of college, unfortunately, even if I did sign up I'd probably be a cook or something because I have poor vision and I'm anemic. However, college or not, if I were drafted I would gladly go without protest.

[A picasso blue]

I'll give a general response to save others from answering such a narrow-minded question.

Many people arent in the service for many different reasons. First, joining the military is a major life choice. Sure you can have a career afterwards but your life is completely changed or years and years. You might have other pursuits you are interested in such as college, marriage, sports, etc..., etc...... Others are unable to get into the service for physical reasons. Also there are other options than just joining the army if you wish to help the effort.

Also the reason why your question is absurd is because you are assuming simply because you support something means you must go out and fight for it. I'm against abortion but you don't find me in front of clinics protesting. Same goes for many other things.

Do you support the insurgents rebellion against coalition forces? If you do perhaps you should be asking yourself why you don't help them? See how absurd that is.................well first of all, what do you feel that you do to support the effort?

[dai the flu]

well first of all, what do you feel that you do to support the effort?
defending it against narrow-minded naive kids back home that cant think rationally on their own, but instead spout the anti-american crap they hear from the media like its fact.

[Cal Smith]

well first of all, what do you feel that you do to support the effort?

Directly............. I havent done much. Perhaps writing for this website, and supporting the administration.

[siberianxkiss]

defending it against narrow-minded naive kids back home that cant think rationally on their own, but instead spout the anti-american crap they hear from the media like its fact.

this was just as idiotic as what the other kid posted
because if you dont support the war or the President you must hate America!

[noodledancer]

I'll give a general response to save others from answering such a narrow-minded question.

Many people arent in the service for many different reasons. First, joining the military is a major life choice. Sure you can have a career afterwards but your life is completely changed or years and years. You might have other pursuits you are interested in such as college, marriage, sports, etc..., etc...... Others are unable to get into the service for physical reasons. Also there are other options than just joining the army if you wish to help the effort.

Also the reason why your question is absurd is because you are assuming simply because you support something means you must go out and fight for it. I'm against abortion but you don't find me in front of clinics protesting. Same goes for many other things.

Do you support the insurgents rebellion against coalition forces? If you do perhaps you should be asking yourself why you don't help them? See how absurd that is.................
wow. that's a really great response.

[dai the flu]

this was just as idiotic as what the other kid posted
because if you dont support the war or the President you must hate America!i agree, in this context my remark sounded dumb.
i was talking though about the general attitude towards america thats pushed so hard on us today. this issue is just one of many that just annoys me to death. and im not some gung-ho pro-america flag-worshiper at all, i just wish people would think for themselves.

[Dan Hollister]

Your question is completely and totally irrelavent.

The war itself doesn't even matter. Even in wars that are justified, people still die. There are certain kinds of people who don't want to do that. That's like saying everyone in favor of World War II should've fought. Or any war. The only reason why you're asking this question is obviously because you are against this war, but that's irrelavent because even if the war were 100% without a doubt right (which I dont think is true), then there still are plenty of reasons to not enlist.

You also wrote this in another topic and refused to answer to it there, so I'll paste what I wrote then:

"That is completely irrelavent. The military is not the place to go if you are a free-thinker and want to make a difference. The military is where to go if you aren't vocal about it, beause you're not going to have a say in anything that you do. At all. Your beliefs do not matter once you enlist."

This remains true. For people who want to be vocal about our country, the military is not for you. This is a no-brainer.

Furthermore, I think you should be ashamed of yourself for using whether or not people enlist in the military as a basis to support your personal belief on this war. Shame on you.

[yeat182]

Why would middle/upper class white kids join the military? We already have the disenfranchised poor to do most of our dirty work (front lines).

ask this kid why: http://www.myspace.com/poetmaster

[A picasso blue]

I still do not understand how this question can be countered by bringing up the thought that"if you don';t support the war, you don't support the troops"

[VinnyVegas]

ask this kid why: http://www.myspace.com/poetmaster

Okay, one wealthy kid joins the armed forces, and what does he do? He gets his father (a successful author) to recount the story. They then publish the book and make money off of it.

This example showcases how the rich find a way to make money off of the most heart wrenching situations. I find it amazing that even as a soldier, this person found a way to create his own fortune. It shows how the rich-stay-rich and the poor-stay-poor. The old adage "money makes money" is illustrated perfectly by this example.

I don't know why he joined, but I find it interesting that he is able to profit off of his situation. Maybe he should donate all of the money to veterans, rather than keep it himself, since he was born into wealth.

*He may very well have donated the money, but I couldn't find any links.
*I'm sure some wealthy people join the military, but they are not the majority.

[A picasso blue]

Your question is completely and totally irrelavent.

The war itself doesn't even matter. Even in wars that are justified, people still die. There are certain kinds of people who don't want to do that. That's like saying everyone in favor of World War II should've fought. Or any war. The only reason why you're asking this question is obviously because you are against this war, but that's irrelavent because even if the war were 100% without a doubt right (which I dont think is true), then there still are plenty of reasons to not enlist.

You also wrote this in another topic and refused to answer to it there, so I'll paste what I wrote then:

"That is completely irrelavent. The military is not the place to go if you are a free-thinker and want to make a difference. The military is where to go if you aren't vocal about it, beause you're not going to have a say in anything that you do. At all. Your beliefs do not matter once you enlist."

This remains true. For people who want to be vocal about our country, the military is not for you. This is a no-brainer.

Furthermore, I think you should be ashamed of yourself for using whether or not people enlist in the military as a basis to support your personal belief on this war. Shame on you.
i refused? i dunno myaybe i didn't reply because i don't know in what thread you posted but i know i didn't refuse. what thread?

[yeat182]

Okay, one wealthy kid joins the armed forces, and what does he do? He gets his father (a successful author) to recount the story. They then publish the book and make money off of it.

This example showcases how the rich find a way to make money off of the most heart wrenching situations. I find it amazing that even as a soldier, this person found a way to create his own fortune. It shows how the rich-stay-rich and the poor-stay-poor. The old adage "money makes money" is illustrated perfectly by this example.

I don't know why he joined, but I find it interesting that he is able to profit off of his situation. Maybe he should donate all of the money to veterans, rather than keep it himself, since he was born into wealth.

*He may very well have donated the money, but I couldn't find any links.
*I'm sure some wealthy people join the military, but they are not the majority.

do you know what he does in the military?

also, you miss the point of the book. the book wasn't about how his father can make money (his father is a novelist, so why shouldn't he be allowed to write a book that earns him money?), its about how his father thought just as you do, and how his son changed his mind.

i find it funny as well that such a big deal is made about how the military is all made up of poor kids with no other choice and then when that is proven false, people can't accept it and have to find a new arugement to make. I grew up with this kid and he wasn't the only one from my town that joined the military and i live in an upper middle class town. I knew at least 10 kids that i grew up with that joined up, none of them were poor, most of them very well off, included Mike the Marine from the real world san diego as well as Derek Hines (http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/09/10/hundreds_honor_fallen_ranger/)

[Dan Hollister]

The military is not just for poor people. There are plenty of middle class, and even flat-out rich people who join the military. If you haven't met any of them, that's too bad, but don't deny that they exist.

I'll be honest, I grew up in a very rich area in the Silicon Valley. Everyone who went to my high school was usually rich in one fashion or another. Yet there's 9 guys in my graduating class that enlisted, and a female friend of mine got a scholarship to the air force academy. And this is actually a lot of people, beacuse my entire graduating class only consisted of about 130 people.

I can guarentee you that this is not the only city where priveliged people decided to enlist. Anyone who says the military is for poor people obviously hasn't opened their eyes and looked around. It's not like the military releases a fact sheet with who's rich and who's poor in the military. The only way to find out is to look around, and if you take the effort to do so, you'll find rich people enlisting, middle class people enlisting, and plenty of people who could've had great careers and lives elsewhere who turned it down to fight for our country.

Okay, one wealthy kid joins the armed forces, and what does he do? He gets his father (a successful author) to recount the story. They then publish the book and make money off of it.

This example showcases how the rich find a way to make money off of the most heart wrenching situations. I find it amazing that even as a soldier, this person found a way to create his own fortune. It shows how the rich-stay-rich and the poor-stay-poor. The old adage "money makes money" is illustrated perfectly by this example.

Wow, you just opened one hell of a Pandora's Box with that one.

So you're saying that a kid and his dad writing a book about war is a way for the rich to stay rich and the poor to stay poor? If anything, this example proves that the rich people are doing things smarter than everyone else. That book could've been written by anybody, and it would've sold. Many books have been written about war by military men who had no writing experience, and have still taken off.

In response to this, I now feel compelled to ask - why don't some other soldiers write about their experiences? They can if they want, and it has the potential to make them rich. If they choose not to, then there you have it, but don't you dare say that an entrepreneur is helping the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor. Any person in this country - whether they're rich or homeless - has the ability to pursue things like this that could gain them wealth. If the general population doesn't feel like it, then it's their fault for not trying, not the rich's fault for doing it.

[A picasso blue]

...Any person in this country - whether they're rich or homeless - has the ability to pursue things like this that could gain them wealth. If the general population doesn't feel like it, then it's their fault for not trying, not the rich's fault for doing it.


i know that's basically one of the 'pillars' of the republican ideology, but i really even udnerstand the basis for it. Not everyone is poor because they don't feel like acheiving. maybe they're held back by poor educaiton in their schools, or they were laid-off and are unemployed.

[lackofcolour 13]

That's an implication that you have to do something to support it. Just because a girl is prochoice doesnt mean not getting an abortion makes them a hypocrit.

[Dan Hollister]

i know that's basically one of the 'pillars' of the republican ideology, but i really even udnerstand the basis for it. Not everyone is poor because they don't feel like acheiving. maybe they're held back by poor educaiton in their schools, or they were laid-off and are unemployed.

This post is going to be a bit longer than my last one, but I beg you to please read all these points and real life accounts before you respond. I'm open for open for debate, but I would like to please ask that you read this first.

I don't see how this isn't true, what you say. In our society, starting a small business doesn't have to require investors, capital, or a big education. All you need is to have a halfway-decent idea, and a drive to make it happen, and you're set.

There was a group of homeless men who started writing a little newsletter called "News From Our Shoes" for and by other homeless people. That costs virtually nothing to start - a couple hours typing on a public library computer and a couple bucks for Kinko's copies. Eventually the publication actually got popular enough that people who weren't homeless became interested in the guys behind it. Now they still run "News From Our Shoes," but they expanded the publication so it's not just for homeless people. The publication is still free, and it's ad-supported. The homeless men who created it are no longer homeless anymore. "News From Our Shoes" now operates out of an office. And these homeless guys with just a simple little idea ended up being able to live doing what they like to do.

There's tons of stories like this one. There's an organization on New York called NFTE - the National Foundation for Teaching Entreprenurship. This is a non-profit organization that teaches poor, inner-city kids the principles of entrepreneurship. We're not talking rich kids, we're talking the poorest of the poor in some of the worst high schools in places like The Bronx and Queens.

The man who started this organization started out teaching a math class in one of these high schools. Most of the poor kids failed, and could care less, because, as you say, the poor stay poor and the rich stay rich. The poor kids thought they were just underpriveliged and that's how it s, and didn't bother to learn math. Until the teacher started teaching about starting businesses. The teacher (who was, himself, a successful entrepreneur) started teaching how to start businesses, and these are things that anyone could do. I mean, we're talking about poor high school kids here. One girl started giving manicures out of her parents' apartment. Another started buying sunglasses wholesale and reselling them to fellow students. These are just baby steps, but they ended up bringing in a few hundred a month, which is a very good start for someone in that financial situation.

The kids not only started understanding money and earning some of their own, but their spirits were suddenly lifted, too. About 80% of the students really started working hard in the math class, and in school in general. It gave them self-esteem and a reason to excel. NFTE is now a national organization that teaches hundreds of city kids per year the principles of entrepreneurship. Most end up going to college, almost all of them do better in school after attending the program, and over 50% start small businesses that bring in some money for them and their families.

Anyone can do this. I didn't say it's easy, or that it's not risky. It is very risky, and very hard - but also very possible. You don't need to be Microsoft to support yourself, you just need a silly little idea that works.

The irony is that the "rich stay rich, and poor stay poor" moniker actually is one of the root problems of poverty to begin with. If you teach poor kids that they're poor because rich people are greedy and the government doesn't care, then what are poor people going to do? They're going to sit there and wait for America to do something about it. However, if you teach poor people that they can control their own fate, and show them how, then they will attempt to do so.

All it takes is a working brain and an idea.

[getupkid53]

I guess the inverse question would be.... If you don't support the war, how come you are not picketing the white house, standing guard with Cindy Sheehan or driving Volkswagon's into river's like ted kennedy (Okay, the last one was a joke, not that anybody probably knows what I'm talking about).

[VinnyVegas]

I really don’t want to respond to each person individually, so I will just make a general post. In my first post I should have specified disenfranchised “minorities”, rather than saying “poor”. That is what I was referring to, but I assumed that “disenfranchised poor” would be equated to poor minorities. I misspoke and will admit to that.

My second post was a mere observation of the situation; it wasn’t meant to prove anything. I never said that the military was strictly for poor people, at the bottom of the post I wrote “*I'm sure some wealthy people join the military, but they are not the majority.”

It is difficult to find statistics that explicitly state the poor population of enlisted men/women. Therefore, you have to dig a little bit deeper and use the data available.

I found a very interesting report that shows the enlistment of service people based on race and ethnicity. If you skip to page six (ActiveTrends_1977-2004.pdf), the charts thereafter will prove that minorities are being targeted for military service. While the white enlisted population has had a steady decline in over the last 27 years, minority enlistment has increased overall.

It becomes clear that minorities are disproportionately represented in the military when you look at the raw percentages. If you combine the data from (Demographics_2004_09.pdf) with census data, you will get the following percentages:

-Whites while 75.6% of the population, comprise 64.4% of the military
-Blacks while 12.2% of the population, comprise 18% of the military
-Hispanics while 14.2% of the population, comprise 9% of the military
-American Indian or Alaska Native while .8% of the population, comprise 1.6% of the military
-Asian and Pacific Islanders while 4.3% of the population, comprise 4.4% of the military

It is clear that whites have the largest percentage difference in military representation. If you then accept the fact that whites have lower poverty rates than every minority listed, you begin to see that the military is unevenly comprised of poor minorities. These people face institutionalized racism; poor learning conditions in inner-city schools; and lower incomes. The powerful (white people) use their power to make their ideology paramount, while legitimizing systems of inequality.

This socialization process from an early age leads young minorities to accept their low status, which leads to systematic false consciousness. Minorities and the working poor accept their situation because through ideological insemination, they believe that the American system is meritocratic. They believe that they are in their situation because they lack the brains or natural ability, which is not the case. They have been socialized to be the way they are, and very few minorities break free from that process.

I hope that sheds some light on why I feel the way I do. All of the facts can be checked using the links provided, except the books obviously.


https://www.patrick.af.mil/DEOMI/Observances%20&%20Demographics/Deomographics/Trends/Active/ActiveTrends_1977-2004.pdf

https://www.patrick.af.mil/DEOMI/Observances%20&%20Demographics/Deomographics/Demographics_2004_09.pdf

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/ACSSAFFFacts?_event=&geo_id=01000US&_geoContext=01000US&_street=&_county=&_cityTown=&_state=&_zip=&_lang=en&_sse=on&ActiveGeoDiv=&_useEV=&pctxt=fph&pgsl=010

In Conflict and Order – Eitzen & Zinn

America’s Minorities: The Demographics of Diversity – William O’Hare

[Lueda Alia]

i agree, in this context my remark sounded dumb.
i was talking though about the general attitude towards america thats pushed so hard on us today. this issue is just one of many that just annoys me to death. and im not some gung-ho pro-america flag-worshiper at all, i just wish people would think for themselves.
nothing needs to be pushed to us. the american government does a good job itself to make everyone hate them.

[richter915]

I'll give a general response to save others from answering such a narrow-minded question.

Many people arent in the service for many different reasons. First, joining the military is a major life choice. Sure you can have a career afterwards but your life is completely changed or years and years. You might have other pursuits you are interested in such as college, marriage, sports, etc..., etc...... Others are unable to get into the service for physical reasons. Also there are other options than just joining the army if you wish to help the effort.

Also the reason why your question is absurd is because you are assuming simply because you support something means you must go out and fight for it. I'm against abortion but you don't find me in front of clinics protesting. Same goes for many other things.

Do you support the insurgents rebellion against coalition forces? If you do perhaps you should be asking yourself why you don't help them? See how absurd that is.................
but that's implying that just cause you're against the invasion of Iraq, you support the insurgents which is not true at all. That comment is far worse than the question posed because it's probably some huge philosophical fallacy.

[USAFDave]

i did join... its not about this war, its not about the next one. Its about America...

"Our country! In her intercourse with foreign nations may she always be in the right; but our country, right or wrong."
-Naval Commander Stephen Decatur