Pro-Life or Pro-Choice?

[getupkid53]

anti-abortion is a very dangerous position.

14 year olds opinions don't matter, go have a juice box.

[Kid Kilowatt]

why?


and kid kilowatt, ive noticed we consistently disagree on everything on this board. not to mention you consistently come across as an ignorant self-absorbed douche.

on the other hand, cal smith, i never have to reply much, cuz you're always saying exactly what im thinking.
I've noticed that when you are unable to put together an argument, you resort to ad hominems. Perhaps you should re-evaluate your ability to debate before partaking in it.

[YearsGoneBy]

pro choice

[dai the flu]

I've noticed that when you are unable to put together an argument, you resort to ad hominems. Perhaps you should re-evaluate your ability to debate before partaking in it.

listen freak, i made an observation off-topic i thought was interesting. if you had made any kind of valid rational point, id argue it. you need to evaluate YOUR ability to debate, all you've done since i joined this board is spout some of the most despicable and offensive ideas ive ever heard come from a human being. you dont shock anybody, you dont impress anybody, you dont come across as profound, and i doubt anybody here would disagree.

[Carlo Marx]

listen freak, i made an observation off-topic i thought was interesting. if you had made any kind of valid rational point, id argue it. you need to evaluate YOUR ability to debate, all you've done since i joined this board is spout some of the most despicable and offensive ideas ive ever heard come from a human being. you dont shock anybody, you dont impress anybody, you dont come across as profound, and i doubt anybody here would disagree.

judging by your reaction, i'd say he shocked you.

[Kid Kilowatt]

listen freak, i made an observation off-topic i thought was interesting.
No, you resorted to putting forth ad hominems.
if you had made any kind of valid rational point, id argue it.
Rational according to who? You reject it because it displeases you.
you need to evaluate YOUR ability to debate, all you've done since i joined this board is spout some of the most despicable and offensive ideas ive ever heard come from a human being. .
Whether or not the point is offensive does not affect the actual arguement.
you dont shock anybody, you dont impress anybody, you dont come across as profound, and i doubt anybody here would disagree.
I am not trying to. You simply ascribe these characteristics to me because you dislike my views and are unable to actually argue a point.

[dai the flu]

you know, all maliciousness aside, im smiling when i write this, you really are my complete opposite. in the short time ive been here, you've turned into the number one person i love to hate. we disgree so completely on everything, its insane. and thats not an ad hominem. its borderline admiration. not quite, but almost.

[Cal Smith]

No, you resorted to putting forth ad hominems.
Rational according to who? You reject it because it displeases you.
Whether or not the point is offensive does not affect the actual arguement.
I am not trying to. You simply ascribe these characteristics to me because you dislike my views and are unable to actually argue a point.

I'll be the first to say I don't agree with your opinion probably on 95% of the stuff you say (like the idea of killing children minutes before they're born as long as the mothers life wouldnt be in danger...........tad-bit extreme), but that doesnt make me dislike you.

I do have a problem with your inabitliy to either tell fact from fiction, or perhaps the case is that you simply make things up. You're one of the worst one's on the forum about this.

[lightcollapse]

[quote=dai the flu]why?[quote]

the fact is, nobody (or a VERY small amount of people) is going to wait to have sex until they're ready to get pregnant. so we can't have a bunch of teenyboppers carrying around babies. abortion is the safer side, unless we want every school to have 15 percent of the girls pregnant.

[imthenewcancer]

im gonna go ahead and say that im pro choice because i do not have a vagina/ovaries/uterus. i would not want a bunch of old, conservative women telling me what i can or can not do with my penis/testicles/prostate

[The Revisionist]

the fact is, nobody (or a VERY small amount of people) is going to wait to have sex until they're ready to get pregnant. so we can't have a bunch of teenyboppers carrying around babies. abortion is the safer side, unless we want every school to have 15 percent of the girls pregnant.Yeahhhh or perhaps the best idea is to have their parents and family educate them on a lot of the "bad" effects that sex can bring forth, and then allow the child to make their own decisions based on that, knowing that they should be responsible enough to deal with the consequences of their actions.

[lackofcolour 13]

Its not the women's body you are dealing with. Its the body of an unborn child. You can't say a woman has the right to choose with her body, because its not her body.

[billysdog69]

Pro-choice of course

[lightcollapse]

Its not the women's body you are dealing with. Its the body of an unborn child. You can't say a woman has the right to choose with her body, because its not her body.

well, the fetus can't make its own decisions, so the mother gets to for it.

but, what are you talking about?

its growing in her stomach! it is part of her body!

[Guy]

pro-choice, this debate is a joke. A ban on abortions, whether federal or statewide would fail on so many levels. It'd be about as enforceable as jaywalking.

[Lueda Alia]

Its not the women's body you are dealing with. Its the body of an unborn child. You can't say a woman has the right to choose with her body, because its not her body.
Such comments shouldn't be taken seriously, so I really hope no one does.

[lackofcolour 13]

Such comments shouldn't be taken seriously, so I really hope no one does.

and I just plain don't like your political opinions. EDIT** I think we should enjoy a nice brunch together and reason out our differences.

there. I said it. What are you going to do? Take away my scene points?

[Lueda Alia]

and I just plain don't like your political opinions. I bet you had an abortion and now you feel the need to cop out your own guilt.

there. I said it. What are you going to do? Take away my scene points?
banning you sounds better to me.

[lackofcolour 13]

[quote=dai the flu]why?[quote]

the fact is, nobody (or a VERY small amount of people) is going to wait to have sex until they're ready to get pregnant. so we can't have a bunch of teenyboppers carrying around babies. abortion is the safer side, unless we want every school to have 15 percent of the girls pregnant.

how is that not bad? You can't dumb down life to the fucking lesser of two evils. I dont care if abortion is "safer" than teenagers having children. Its still offering an easy way out of it.

Plus. dont you think if there was no easy way out, if you outlawed abortion, the rate would go down? Of course kids are going to have sex if you remove the consequence by allowing them to have an abortion. Remove the abortion option, maybe they will think twice about having unprotected sex.

And instead of catering to a fucking pregnant teenagers lack of solutions, why dont we try and promote some better sexual morality in society instead of just giving into the lackthereof. You dont help anything with abortion. You just keep things the exact way they are, in desperate need of moral reform. As far as the teen age aspect its like turning a blind eye to morality. and that, my friend, is fucked up.

[lackofcolour 13]

banning you sounds better to me.

yes. that was a past the line statement, and for that, I am very sorry, but I just don't fucking get how quick you guys can be about thinking abortion is ok.

[Lueda Alia]

yes. that was a past the line statement, and for that, I am very sorry, but I just don't fucking get how quick you guys can be about thinking abortion is ok.
It's not worth it to debate with you because you don't seem to know what you're talking about. Proof? According to you, we decided really quickly that abortion is ok.

[lackofcolour 13]

ugh. there's too much Tom Delonge in your icon.

and as far as your opinion goes, I dont think you have one. Send me a link from this abortion thread where you voice your opinion, because all I ever see you say is how wrong someone is and how there is no point in debating them. I have yet to see the way your liberal mind actually passes out a sordid thought.

so please, let me see what you actually think.

[Lueda Alia]

ugh. there's too much Tom Delonge in your icon.

and as far as your opinion goes, I dont think you have one. Send me a link from this abortion thread where you voice your opinion, because all I ever see you say is how wrong someone is and how there is no point in debating them. I have yet to see the way your liberal mind actually passes out a sordid thought.

so please, let me see what you actually think.
read before you speak.

[lackofcolour 13]

see. thats exactly what Im talking about. Just tell me what you think on the issue.

[lightcollapse]

[quote=lightcollapse][quote=dai the flu]why?

how is that not bad? You can't dumb down life to the fucking lesser of two evils. I dont care if abortion is "safer" than teenagers having children. Its still offering an easy way out of it.

Plus. dont you think if there was no easy way out, if you outlawed abortion, the rate would go down? Of course kids are going to have sex if you remove the consequence by allowing them to have an abortion. Remove the abortion option, maybe they will think twice about having unprotected sex.

And instead of catering to a fucking pregnant teenagers lack of solutions, why dont we try and promote some better sexual morality in society instead of just giving into the lackthereof. You dont help anything with abortion. You just keep things the exact way they are, in desperate need of moral reform. As far as the teen age aspect its like turning a blind eye to morality. and that, my friend, is fucked up.

so you're saying, we should discipline kids by forcing them to bring life into the world, take care of it, and base their whole life around something they don't want?

for "sexual morality?"

you're bullshitting me.

[Lueda Alia]

see. thats exactly what Im talking about. Just tell me what you think on the issue.
you would know if you had taken the time to read through this thread. you accuse others of jumping on conclusions quickly, and yet, you do the same.

[lightcollapse]

you would know if you had taken the time to read through this thread. you accuse others of jumping on conclusions quickly, and yet, you do the same.

i hope he never has daughters.

[lackofcolour 13]

banning you sounds better to me.

Not necessarily. It simply depends on what you consider "a life."
But I don't really want to get into this. I'm debating whether or not to close it because there's so many threads like this around.

way to post something really smart.
maybe I'm reading this wrong, but this post right here proves just how hypcrite some of you are. "I'm pro life because I don't want babies to die." and this is also exactly why debating with some of you is not worth it.

ah right, because that is always the case. you're absolutely right.

you believe that life begins at conception. many others don't.

How is it life? Does it have a heartbeat? Can it feel emotions?

Science has not proved it to be a life so far. So it's really about belief, which is why people should be allowed to make their own choices.

I don't remember reading any well thought-out post from you either. you've been trying to prove your points by relying on personal attacks, too. as far as I can see anyway.

and if someone attacks you, then be the bigger person and let it go.
hahahahahahahahahahahaha...what a punk.

Tosser.



hahaha that made me laugh after reading that guys post.

you, my liege, are a royal fuckhouse.

I'm not saying you shouldn't care. so learn to read, please. I said we don't have to take into consideration your views if you're not affected by it like the person wanting to have an abortion is.


can you please define a human being for me? what do you consider a human being? what do they have to have in ordered to be considered one?

This is a pointless arguement.

You make me laugh.

I've decided that that person is simply just funny. His reply to my post (that you quoted) clearly shows that.

Such comments shouldn't be taken seriously, so I really hope no one does.



look at all of those good points you have made. And as far as you saying it not mattering because it doesn't affect me personally. That's a horribly shallow outlook on life. I would have expected that from an american, but not from our neighbors to the north.

[Lueda Alia]

you really need to learn how to read.

[lightcollapse]

you really need to learn how to read.

hint: get the post for him so he can feel like a ***.

[Lueda Alia]

hint: get the post for him so he can feel like a ***.
haha I don't really need to. these people make a fool of themselves and it's entertaining to watch.

[lackofcolour 13]

ha. just add that to the laundry list.

I dont fucking care what you think or dont think about abortion anymore because...

1. its fucking late and I'm tired
2. you're a woman, so if you want to have an abortion so you can feel like you've persevered in your fight for equality. be my guest.
3. Fuck Canada.

I didnt want to resort to narrow-minded republicanism. but when you give me nothing to counter, there is nothing else I can do.

[lightcollapse]

ha. just add that to the laundry list.

I dont fucking care what you think or dont think about abortion anymore because...

1. its fucking late and I'm tired
2. you're a woman, so if you want to have an abortion so you can feel like you've persevered in your fight for equality. be my guest.
3. Fuck Canada.

I didnt want to resort to narrow-minded republicanism. but when you give me nothing to counter, there is nothing else I can do.

you have a point.

i am also anti liver surgery. because when you remove part of your liver, theres no proof it doesn't develop an independent thought process as it grows.

[lackofcolour 13]

all right. that would be funnier if I wasnt so damn confident in the fact that pro-life is, without a doubt, the way to be.

[Cal Smith]

so you're saying, we should discipline kids by forcing them to bring life into the world, take care of it, and base their whole life around something they don't want?

for "sexual morality?"

you're bullshitting me.

It fascinates me how you find something like protecting life "discipline" for the person trying to take it. Perhaps you might not feel that the life is "human" yet, then again some don't know what the defenition of "is" is. But the idea of protecting innocent life should be something everyone trys to do.

Most of you who claim to be "pro-choice" but against abortions yourselves are full of it. Why? I'd have about 20 times the respect for someone who was pro-choice but still tried to end the number of abortions. Many of you on the other hand make having a child opressive for the mother, and continueously throw out excuses to end life.

Are you really aginast abortions..................I dont think so.

[getupkid53]

you have a point.

i am also anti liver surgery. because when you remove part of your liver, theres no proof it doesn't develop an independent thought process as it grows.

This is why 14 year old's opinions do not even need to be argued. I mean seriously. That was a statement? There is no need to even exegete these 'statements' because they are so obviously tainted with immaturity. Please don't waste our time any more. Go post in the Teen People or MTV forums.

[lackofcolour 13]

mhm.

[oldwirehands]

Some slut teenager gets knocked up by her random fuck. She has to live with it.

Some slut teenager gets raped by her 37 year old softball coach. Thats a different story.

I don't know why this topic is still debatable.

[lightcollapse]

Some slut teenager gets knocked up by her random fuck. She has to live with it.

Some slut teenager gets raped by her 37 year old softball coach. Thats a different story.

I don't know why this topic is still debatable.

but you can't make laws that say "abortion is illegal, unless the girl was raped" because rape cases (or almost any case) take LONGER THAN 9 MONTHS.

[lightcollapse]

It fascinates me how you find something like protecting life "discipline" for the person trying to take it. Perhaps you might not feel that the life is "human" yet, then again some don't know what the defenition of "is" is. But the idea of protecting innocent life should be something everyone trys to do.

Most of you who claim to be "pro-choice" but against abortions yourselves are full of it. Why? I'd have about 20 times the respect for someone who was pro-choice but still tried to end the number of abortions. Many of you on the other hand make having a child opressive for the mother, and continueously throw out excuses to end life.

Are you really aginast abortions..................I dont think so.

i used discipline because the person i quoted implied that. i honestly don't think protecting life is descipline, but i don't think stopping abortions is protecting life honestly. because my definition of life is different than yours, and thats what it comes down to.

and i'm not against abortions, either. i wouldn't mind if there were less abortions, but i don't think abortions are stopping the nation here.

[lightcollapse]

This is why 14 year old's opinions do not even need to be argued. I mean seriously. That was a statement? There is no need to even exegete these 'statements' because they are so obviously tainted with immaturity. Please don't waste our time any more. Go post in the Teen People or MTV forums.

shut the FUCK up about me being fourteen. i have a higher IQ than you ever will.

and i was KIDDING. DO YOU THINK THAT WAS A SERIOUS STATEMENT?

and just because someone's younger than you doesn't mean they haven't developed a thought process yet. stop being so fucking ignorant, get off your box, and listen to the opinions of other people.

[Lueda Alia]

It fascinates me how you find something like protecting life "discipline" for the person trying to take it. Perhaps you might not feel that the life is "human" yet, then again some don't know what the defenition of "is" is. But the idea of protecting innocent life should be something everyone trys to do.

Most of you who claim to be "pro-choice" but against abortions yourselves are full of it. Why? I'd have about 20 times the respect for someone who was pro-choice but still tried to end the number of abortions. Many of you on the other hand make having a child opressive for the mother, and continueously throw out excuses to end life.

Are you really aginast abortions..................I dont think so.

What you consider a life. And it's not "excuses," it's facts.

I wouldn't have an abortion because I just wouldn't be able to do it. It would kill me emotionally and physically because that's the type of person I am. And I'm so glad I have the freedom to make a choice if I'm ever stuck in a situation like that. And for that simple fact right there, I want other women to have a choice too.

If science one day proves that life begins at conception, then chances are that my opinion will change quite a bit. But until then..

[gillianhsieh]

i think if living depends on somene else then it's not really a life. for example, a baby at 2 weeks is just a blastomere and has little more than a spinal cord, a lining which is going to develop into the skin/stomach/intestines/ and an inside which one day will also develop into tons of organs. but come on, lets be real here, it's just a a lump, lining, and filling. so suppose you took it out now, it would definitely die. NOT a person.

but at 25 weeks, a baby is a full blown fetus but doesn't have a very good chance of living (like 10% or so) but if you took it out, it could potentially sustain itself. IS a person.

some babies develop slower than others so you can't put a precise date on these things, but i'd say as long as a baby has >10% chance of survival outside the womb, then it generally shouldn't be ok to abort. why not 9%? well you have to draw the line somewhere. and i think ~25 weeks is a good amount of time for a woman to decide whether she wants ot have a baby or not (that's giving, like 6 months so come on, who carries 6 months and decides she wont' go full term).

but that's just my moral standpoint.

i actually think abortion should NEVER be illegal.

[Cal Smith]

i think if living depends on somene else then it's not really a life. for example, a baby at 2 weeks is just a blastomere and has little more than a spinal cord, a lining which is going to develop into the skin/stomach/intestines/ and an inside which one day will also develop into tons of organs. but come on, lets be real here, it's just a a lump, lining, and filling. so suppose you took it out now, it would definitely die. NOT a person.

but at 25 weeks, a baby is a full blown fetus but doesn't have a very good chance of living (like 10% or so) but if you took it out, it could potentially sustain itself. IS a person.

some babies develop slower than others so you can't put a precise date on these things, but i'd say as long as a baby has >10% chance of survival outside the womb, then it generally shouldn't be ok to abort. why not 9%? well you have to draw the line somewhere. and i think ~25 weeks is a good amount of time for a woman to decide whether she wants ot have a baby or not (that's giving, like 6 months so come on, who carries 6 months and decides she wont' go full term).

but that's just my moral standpoint.

i actually think abortion should NEVER be illegal.

You can debunk that theory by looking at a quadriplegic............

[gillianhsieh]

no way. a quadriplegic's survival doesn't depend on someoens' life. i mean yea someone needs to feed him/her like someone has to feed a baby, but it's not like when the caretaker dies the quadriplegic is suddenly condemned to death.

[Cal Smith]

no way. a quadriplegic's survival doesn't depend on someoens' life. i mean yea someone needs to feed him/her like someone has to feed a baby, but it's not like when the caretaker dies the quadriplegic is suddenly condemned to death.

I see what you're saying, but in that case how do you explain mothers that die during child birth and the baby is born through c-section?

Every pro-choice person has there own reason why somethign isnt human. They should have a convention and decide on two or three things to stick with........"it's not a human if it wear clothes".........."it's not a human if someone can't cut it's toe nails".........."it's not a human if it can't have it's haircut"

[gillianhsieh]

no dude, in that case the baby still can live despite the mother having died. i mean the babys life isn't solely dependent on the life of this one woman, as it is in the case of the blastomere or even 10 week fetus.

[CorporateFish]

Choice.

[Cal Smith]

no dude, in that case the baby still can live despite the mother having died. i mean the babys life isn't solely dependent on the life of this one woman, as it is in the case of the blastomere or even 10 week fetus.

So you do believe somewhere along the nine months that you do have a human?

[lightcollapse]

So you do believe somewhere along the nine months that you do have a human?

he just said, when it has an over 10 percent survival rate. he thinks that usually happens around the 25 week mark.

i don't necessarily agree with that, though.

i don't think abortion should ever be illegal. people who agree with abortions should have the right to have them, and people that don't agree with abortions won't have them.

[gillianhsieh]

i said that i think abortion should never be illegal, but it's more morally sound when before ~25 weeks. also i'm a girl, so the proper pronoun is "she"

[lightcollapse]

i said that i think abortion should never be illegal, but it's more morally sound when before ~25 weeks. also i'm a girl, so the proper pronoun is "she"

everyone's morals are different, so in my opinion make an arguement based on morals doesn't do much in the united states.

[Cal Smith]

i said that i think abortion should never be illegal, but it's more morally sound when before ~25 weeks. also i'm a girl, so the proper pronoun is "she"

i'm a little confused, what you're saying his abortions should always be legal no matter what?

[Cal Smith]

everyone's morals are different, so in my opinion make an arguement based on morals doesn't do much in the united states.

murder, robbery, rape..............all moral things.

[lightcollapse]

murder, robbery, rape..............all moral things.

all of those are defined in the constitution, while abortion isn't.

[Cal Smith]

all of those are defined in the constitution, while abortion isn't.

First, I'd ask why that matters for what you were arguing? You were basically arguing "don't base laws on morals since people have different morals"

Second, and even bigger, you MUST agree that Roe vs. Wade is bad law and should be overturned. There is no possible way you could disagree with this.

[lightcollapse]

First, I'd ask why that matters for what you were arguing? You were basically arguing "don't base laws on morals since people have different morals"

Second, and even bigger, you MUST agree that Roe vs. Wade is bad law and should be overturned. There is no possible way you could disagree with this.

i'm ignorant, inform me.

[Cal Smith]

i'm ignorant, inform me.

you said yourself that abortion was not in the constitution. Now what is the job of the Supreme Court.................to decide what is constitutional.

Meaning if abortion was in the constitution Roe V Wade might be a legit law, but since it's not the Court overstepped there boundaries.

[getupkid53]

shut the FUCK up about me being fourteen. i have a higher IQ than you ever will.

and i was KIDDING. DO YOU THINK THAT WAS A SERIOUS STATEMENT?

and just because someone's younger than you doesn't mean they haven't developed a thought process yet. stop being so fucking ignorant, get off your box, and listen to the opinions of other people.

I have been listening to your statements. Most are absurd. You keep arguing opinion in a battle you will never win. Your jokes are redundant and unamusing and your arguments are weak at best. I could attribute this to you being an idiot, but I stayed on the safe side and figured your mind was just underdeveloped. Have it your way idiot.

PS - Your IQ is not higher than mine, as I doubt it is probably higher than anybody's. I'm sure you could give president bush a run for his money though.

[gillianhsieh]

ok i wasn't saying to base everything on my morals cause obviously i was like the cutoff where I would not get an abortion is ~25 weeks of being pregnant. but i don't intend to ever have an accidental pregnancy or an abortion in my life i just will avoid boys like the plague for a long time.

as per legislation, it is ridiculous to limit a woman's ability to get an abortion. i don't think just because abortion is an option, everyone is going to rush to abortion clinics in their 33rd week of pregnancy and demand a partial birth. abortion is both physically and emotionally traumatizing and most people who decide to have them get them ASAP into their pregnancies because of the emotional attachment that women develop for their babies after they have been carrying them for 6 months. The only time really that a TRULY immoral abortion occurs (partial birth, coathanger) is when extenuating circumstances force a woman into such a thing, and then if abortion was illegal where would she go? probably to some underground physician or physician-imitator whose techniques would be unsafe and more dangerously, unsanitary, threatening the life of the mother.

Anyway who are you to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her life? It's not your body. you'll never have to understand how it is to have someone leeching off your body for 9 months, placing severe limitations on your lifestyle. some women can't afford the tradeoff, and by outlawing abortion you're essentially ruining their lives AND the unwanted baby's life.

roe v wade is essential to the preservation of liberty in america. as soon as your body becomes a tool of the state to produce babies and preserve other people's lives, it belongs to society, not to yourself. how is that a conservative ideal at all? the government should just stay out of my uterus, it's not yours, not any boyfriend's, not america's, and not the unborn baby's, it's my uterus and i should be able to do what i want with it.

i mean if women have a moral obligation to carry unwanted babies to term, then all sorts of other things should be legal. like everyone should donate a segment of their liver to those who need liver transplants. i mean come on why not? you'll only be bedridden for one month. your liver will grow back. AND it'll save someone's life. even if you lose your job, it's ok there will always be more jobs to be had. DO IT TODAY, DONATE YOUR LIVER!

[gillianhsieh]

you said yourself that abortion was not in the constitution. Now what is the job of the Supreme Court.................to decide what is constitutional.

Meaning if abortion was in the constitution Roe V Wade might be a legit law, but since it's not the Court overstepped there boundaries.


yeah roe v. wade isnt' even a law dude. it's just a precedent. plus the role of the constitution isn't to BAN things, it's to protect our rights. how is a ban ever a preservation of rights, i'd like to know, cause ban and allow are complete antonyms, and rights are there so we are never oppressed by people who want to limit our freedoms.

[Cal Smith]

yeah roe v. wade isnt' even a law dude. it's just a precedent. plus the role of the constitution isn't to BAN things, it's to protect our rights. how is a ban ever a preservation of rights, i'd like to know, cause ban and allow are complete antonyms, and rights are there so we are never oppressed by people who want to limit our freedoms.

law, precedent...........you get my point. The Courts job is to decide on matters involving the constitution. He didn feel as though abortion was in the constitution so I just pointed out that he would have to believe that roe v wade was bad law

[dai the flu]

it all comes down to two things that we'll never agree on.
1. life begins at conception
2. pregnancy is a consequence of your own actions that needs to be handled with adult responsibility, not some indiscriminate random circumstance that hinders your life and can be cast off as such.

[lackofcolour 13]

all of those are defined in the constitution, while abortion isn't.


haha. wow. ok. As conservative is, when I look for a moral definition, I dont turn to the constitution.

[lightcollapse]

I have been listening to your statements. Most are absurd. You keep arguing opinion in a battle you will never win. Your jokes are redundant and unamusing and your arguments are weak at best. I could attribute this to you being an idiot, but I stayed on the safe side and figured your mind was just underdeveloped. Have it your way idiot.

PS - Your IQ is not higher than mine, as I doubt it is probably higher than anybody's. I'm sure you could give president bush a run for his money though.

152.

[lightcollapse]

haha. wow. ok. As conservative is, when I look for a moral definition, I dont turn to the constitution.

me neither, but some people do. and american laws do.

[gillianhsieh]

152.

dear lightcollapse
sorry getupkid53 called you an idiot, but you don't have to prove yourself to anyone. if they're wrong, they're wrong. just because someone calls you an idiot on the internet doesn't mean everyone you know is suddenly also going to believe you are an idiot.

dear getupkid53
ostracizing strangers: not cool. even if lightcollapse's jokes suck and his arguments are weak, letting him have his opinion doesn't diminish the importance of yours.

[Stereo Mike]

dear lightcollapse
sorry getupkid53 called you an idiot, but you don't have to prove yourself to anyone. if they're wrong, they're wrong. just because someone calls you an idiot on the internet doesn't mean everyone you know is suddenly also going to believe you are an idiot.

dear getupkid53
ostracizing strangers: not cool. even if lightcollapse's jokes suck and his arguments are weak, letting him have his opinion doesn't diminish the importance of yours.
You sound like the mother i never had.

[Lueda Alia]

it all comes down to two things that we'll never agree on.
1. life begins at conception
2. pregnancy is a consequence of your own actions that needs to be handled with adult responsibility, not some indiscriminate random circumstance that hinders your life and can be cast off as such.
And here I thought that pregnancy should be something good/"happy" and not feel like a burden/consequence.

[lightcollapse]

And here I thought that pregnancy should be something good/"happy" and not feel like a burden/consequence.

pwnd.

[dai the flu]

And here I thought that pregnancy should be something good/"happy" and not feel like a burden/consequence.

the irony of that statement is enough to make me puke

[lightcollapse]

the irony of that statement is enough to make me puke

would you like to elaborate?

[justineislife]

i'm pro-choice. but, personally, i would never have an abortion. in my belief, it is murder and it is wrong. but i wasn't put on this earth to judge others by what they call their "mistakes." that is why i'm pro choice- it's not my life and so i shouldn't butt into their personal business. but, i wouldn't ever ever ever have an abortion.

[getupkid53]

i'm pro-choice. but, personally, i would never have an abortion. in my belief, it is murder and it is wrong. but i wasn't put on this earth to judge others by what they call their "mistakes." that is why i'm pro choice- it's not my life and so i shouldn't butt into their personal business. but, i wouldn't ever ever ever have an abortion.

So, when some bum shoots your mother in the face and takes her purse, you will not judge them because it was a 'mistake' (he was just trying to rob her). It's not your life or your business, but someone was murdered (just like the baby was murdered). That someone happened to be someone close to you. I hope this sheds some light on your decision.

If you consider it murder, who is the murderer? If someone (thing) is murdered, there has to be a killer right?

[boldt_action]

I was inspired to reminisce this thread. Anyone else remember it. Lets bring it back for old times sake.

I think the lifers won this one.

[xTJx]

Pro-choice....there's really no other way

[ClapClapSnap]

i can't remember if i posted on this or not...buuuut

i don't have a strong opinion on this, only because i honestly don't know what i would do if i ended up pregnant at my age. i don't think i'd be able to go through an abrotion [but i do think it's somewhat important for a woman to have the choice]
i'm thinking that i might either find a way for me to keep the child, or go through the pregnancy and put the child into adoption.

[boldt_action]

Pro-choice....there's really no other way
No other way? I'll pretend I never heard that.

[Cal Smith]

In a week or two where I work they are having the Coalition for Life dinner. That's always interesting to watch. You get the nuts from both sides of the isle at these places. They do usually have a decent speaker, but you have the nutty protesters outside and some of the nuts on the other side eating inside.

[oldwirehands]

but you can't make laws that say "abortion is illegal, unless the girl was raped" because rape cases (or almost any case) take LONGER THAN 9 MONTHS.

I never said it should be illegal. I was talking about morals.

If some teenager is being stupid and gets knocked up, she should have to live with what she has done. Not just get rid of it.

If someone is raped, I see it being more acceptable.

I think the whole thing should be left up to the person, not the law.

The point I'm trying to make is that there are situations where abortion is right and there situations where abortion is irresponsible. Its choice. Hands down.

[boldt_action]

I never said it should be illegal. I was talking about morals.

If some teenager is being stupid and gets knocked up, she should have to live with what she has done. Not just get rid of it.

If someone is raped, I see it being more acceptable.

I think the whole thing should be left up to the person, not the law.

The point I'm trying to make is that there are situations where abortion is right and there situations where abortion is irresponsible. Its choice. Hands down.

I agree with most of what you are saying, but at the same time disagree. Murder should not be choice.

[exxxoduss]

i'm pro-choice, and see people say that abortion stops a beating heart, well its only partly true in cases. if a woman has an abortion within like 3 weeks of being pregnant she isn't. a fetus heart doesn't form until about 22 days after fertilization. and i really hate the people and churches that go out and protest and the groups that bring kids along and put them in the street in front of cars as a protest. i've seen it. and some of the signs they put up with children that have legs and arms ripped form their bodies and the babies look a few weeks from being born, in most cases that isn't the case, abortions most often take place in the first month or two.

[Baconator]

prolife

[oldwirehands]

I agree with most of what you are saying, but at the same time disagree. Murder should not be choice.

I don't believe ridding of something that has no conscious of existence is murder. Its like killing a plant. A baby and a developing baby are very different.

That is my opinion though. We have a right to that opinion. To make that choice. It shouldn't be taken away.

[getupkid53]

i'm pro-choice, and see people say that abortion stops a beating heart, well its only partly true in cases. if a woman has an abortion within like 3 weeks of being pregnant she isn't. a fetus heart doesn't form until about 22 days after fertilization. and i really hate the people and churches that go out and protest and the groups that bring kids along and put them in the street in front of cars as a protest. i've seen it. and some of the signs they put up with children that have legs and arms ripped form their bodies and the babies look a few weeks from being born, in most cases that isn't the case, abortions most often take place in the first month or two.

You obviously don't realize that most woman do not realize they are pregnant until 1 or 2 months after the fetus is in the womb. I don't have an exact date, but I would venture to say that the baby has a heartbeat in 90-95% by the time a woman realizes she is pregnant.

[exxxoduss]

I don't believe ridding of something that has no conscious of existence is murder. Its like killing a plant. A baby and a developing baby are very different.

That is my opinion though. We have a right to that opinion. To make that choice. It shouldn't be taken away.

yeah your probably right, i'm sure that alot of women don't realize for that long, but that isn't every case. and plus i agree with the quote above, it something doesn't have a consious or a memory of existence then yeah i don't think it is murder. abortion is a private decision that only the mother and father of the fetus, not a baby, its not a baby till its born, but its their decision and their business whether or not to have the abortion.

[selftitled85]

im pro-choice but pro-life. i believe you made a choice to have sex. you knew the risk of getting pregnant could happen but you still did it. you may of taken all the precautions available but condoms can break and you know that. therefore if you do something you should do it knowing the consequences and face them.

but...for special cases i believe abortion should be allowed...for cases like rape or when the mother is having difficulties.

[selftitled85]

but...i also believe that if we legalize abortion we should legalize the use of stem cells as i see the two ideas being linked.

[exxxoduss]

ok well i gotta say this, "I support stem cell research, but only as a byproduct for my support for killing babies." tshirt hell shirt lol i'm still pro-choice

[Ratherbedead22]

I have a different stance on abortion: I'm against abortion, but for killing babies. That way everyone loses, and I win. I'm neither pro choice, nor pro life; I'm pro you-shutting-the-hell-up. The only way I'd be "pro choice" is if it meant I could choose which babies I could abort, and only then if I could lift the age restriction to 80. I was at this mall the other day watching some shitty documentary when I came out of the theater and saw old people dancing to country music in the courtyard. I couldn't remember the last time I saw a group of people begging this hard to be aborted.

[wastedspacejm]

pro-choice. if i got my girlfriend pregnant, i wouldn't want her to have an abortion. but illegalizing it is just stupid. what would happen is the women who still want abortions will still have them done, just in back allies with rusty coat hangers than in sanitary conditions. chances are, a good number of those women would in turn die from some sort of infection from the unsterilized process. so all you pro-life people, think of it this way: elimintating legal, sterile abortions will lead to taking 2 lives instead of 1.

[oldwirehands]

pro-choice. if i got my girlfriend pregnant, i wouldn't want her to have an abortion. but illegalizing it is just stupid. what would happen is the women who still want abortions will still have them done, just in back allies with rusty coat hangers than in sanitary conditions. chances are, a good number of those women would in turn die from some sort of infection from the unsterilized process. so all you pro-life people, think of it this way: elimintating legal, sterile abortions will lead to taking 2 lives instead of 1.

EXACTLY!

How can anyone aregue this?

[Johnny_G]

pro-choice. if i got my girlfriend pregnant, i wouldn't want her to have an abortion. but illegalizing it is just stupid. what would happen is the women who still want abortions will still have them done, just in back allies with rusty coat hangers than in sanitary conditions. chances are, a good number of those women would in turn die from some sort of infection from the unsterilized process. so all you pro-life people, think of it this way: elimintating legal, sterile abortions will lead to taking 2 lives instead of 1.

I'm officially dumber after reading that sorry excuse for an English paragraph.

That said, if anyone read the Roe v Wade case and studied it, it makes a strong case for pro-choice. By law, the correct decision is in place. Abortion is too hot to argue through opinion because nobody is going to sway the other. That said, the only alternative is by law, and the Roe v. Wade case does a good job of interpreting the Consitution in its decision for the legality of abortion under terms laid out in the majority opinion.

[dai the flu]

im pro-life. i think its alive at conception, so no, under no circumstances would i condone the aborting of it. and whether its done legally or illegally in a "back alley with a rusty coat-hanger" doesnt matter. killing kids is killing kids.
but thats my opinion. i dont make the laws so whatever. i dont lose sleep over it.

[notetoxself]

I am more pro choice since we should be entitled on what we want to do. and it is also up to the female.

[getupkid53]

I am more pro choice since we should be entitled on what we want to do. and it is also up to the female.

How about I stomp on your face.... It's what I want to do, I should be entitled to it right?... If you're going to make an argument... Don't make it a dumbass one.

And overturning roe v. wade doesn't make abortion legal morons. Please read up on this. It just makes abortion a state law rather than a federal law. If it got over turned and a woman wanted an abortion in a state that doesn't allow it, she would just go across state lines and do it. And it's not like killing a plant. If plants start to grow limbs, breathe, and have heartbeats, then it will be like killing a plant.

[oldwirehands]

How about I stomp on your face.... It's what I want to do, I should be entitled to it right?... If you're going to make an argument... Don't make it a dumbass one.

And overturning roe v. wade doesn't make abortion legal morons. Please read up on this. It just makes abortion a state law rather than a federal law. If it got over turned and a woman wanted an abortion in a state that doesn't allow it, she would just go across state lines and do it. And it's not like killing a plant. If plants start to grow limbs, breathe, and have heartbeats, then it will be like killing a plant.

Well, do you want to get into an Intelligent Design debate? Because I heard that there is only one thing that seperates us from a plant.

That is a whole other topic I don't feel like getting into though. The point is, is the fetus aware of its existance? I don't think so. I really don't know if there is proof of that or not though. So, its just the opinion I have based on the knowledge I have. If you can prove me wrong, enlighten me. I love learning.

[Cal Smith]

pro-choice. if i got my girlfriend pregnant, i wouldn't want her to have an abortion. but illegalizing it is just stupid. what would happen is the women who still want abortions will still have them done, just in back allies with rusty coat hangers than in sanitary conditions. chances are, a good number of those women would in turn die from some sort of infection from the unsterilized process. so all you pro-life people, think of it this way: elimintating legal, sterile abortions will lead to taking 2 lives instead of 1.

One to many soap operas. You're right many women would still have the abortions done, but they're not goign to be plopping down money for a hobo to do it. There would still be doctors who did it withouth rusty coat hangers.

[TJ Wells]

I don't agree with abortion AT ALL, however, I am pro-choice, because they should still be allowed to decide for themselves.

[brandnewwurryou]

this site sucks where can i find brand news demos

[exxxoduss]

How about I stomp on your face.... It's what I want to do, I should be entitled to it right?... If you're going to make an argument... Don't make it a dumbass one.


well i must say, you've made a complete dumbass out of yourself. for one abortion should be a personal decision. a woman is entitled to have an abortion if she wants to.

by all means if you can find that person, get them on the ground and stomp on their face well stomp away, but don't make stupid ass comments that are irrelavent to what we are talking about. and lets just say, yes you do have the right to stomp on someones face if you'd like to, just like women should have the right to choose.

its none of your god damn business what other people do. the topic of abortion is shared amoung the whole united states but when it comes down to it, the abortions are going to happen, and i don't think that the federal government, state government, and anyone should tell another person that they are not allowed to have the right to choose. that is part of the reason we live in the united states, to have the freedom to choose.

I'm officially dumber after reading that sorry excuse for an English paragraph.

this isn't a god damn english class, get off peoples ass about grammer and the use of an "English paragraph". make a point, don't get on here and say stupid ass shit because you have nothing better to do. and roe v wade doesn't fucking matter here, these are all opinions not a court case. don't site other peoples views, the courts views, and not site your opinion.

[XKing'sX]

well i must say, you've made a complete dumbass out of yourself. for one abortion should be a personal decision. a woman is entitled to have an abortion if she wants to.

by all means if you can find that person, get them on the ground and stomp on their face well stomp away, but don't make stupid ass comments that are irrelavent to what we are talking about. and lets just say, yes you do have the right to stomp on someones face if you'd like to, just like women should have the right to choose.

its none of your god damn business what other people do. the topic of abortion is shared amoung the whole united states but when it comes down to it, the abortions are going to happen, and i don't think that the federal government, state government, and anyone should tell another person that they are not allowed to have the right to choose. that is part of the reason we live in the united states, to have the freedom to choose.



this isn't a god damn english class, get off peoples ass about grammer and the use of an "English paragraph". make a point, don't get on here and say stupid ass shit because you have nothing better to do. and roe v wade doesn't fucking matter here, these are all opinions not a court case. don't site other peoples views, the courts views, and not site your opinion.


I don't really get why people think it's a "woman's decision" what she does for herself, because there are two lives involved.

[Cal Smith]

well i must say, you've made a complete dumbass out of yourself. for one abortion should be a personal decision. a woman is entitled to have an abortion if she wants to.

by all means if you can find that person, get them on the ground and stomp on their face well stomp away, but don't make stupid ass comments that are irrelavent to what we are talking about. and lets just say, yes you do have the right to stomp on someones face if you'd like to, just like women should have the right to choose.

its none of your god damn business what other people do. the topic of abortion is shared amoung the whole united states but when it comes down to it, the abortions are going to happen, and i don't think that the federal government, state government, and anyone should tell another person that they are not allowed to have the right to choose. that is part of the reason we live in the united states, to have the freedom to choose.

If you want to base you argument on this and believe it all comes down to the fact abortions are going to happen so they should be legal. You should reconsider every single law we have in this country.

Speeding, murder, rape, molestation, assault, abuse, etc........, etc..........., etc..........., etc..............., are all going to happen but I doubt your argument would extend to them?

[Cal Smith]

I don't really get why people think it's a "woman's decision" what she does for herself, because there are two lives involved.

there sure is when they're looking for child support.

i've always thought that if the woman gets to make the whole decision that the man should have the decision whether to support that child or not financely.

[fedhed7]

I don't really get why people think it's a "woman's decision" what she does for herself, because there are two lives involved.

A bundle of cells isn't a life.

[Cal Smith]

A bundle of cells isn't a life.

What are you then?

[fedhed7]

A child should be called "living" when they finally have the ability to live outside of the mother.

[fedhed7]

What are you then?

A tiny bundle of cells without developed brain tissue, heart tissue, and skin tissue isn't a life.

[Cal Smith]

A child should be called "living" when they finally have the ability to live outside of the mother.

It shouldn't be until they can talk

[fedhed7]

It shouldn't be until they can talk

Hahahaha

[fedhed7]

If abortion is infanticide, am I committing genocide every time I masturbate?

[Cal Smith]

A tiny bundle of cells without developed brain tissue, heart tissue, and skin tissue isn't a life.

see you've already changed your defentition like 3 times.

First, it was a bundle of cells isnt a life
Second, life is only when you can live outside the mother
Third, live has to be a bundle of cells with developed brain tissue, heart tissue, and skin tissue.

[XKing'sX]

If abortion is infanticide, am I committing genocide every time I masturbate?

Your sperm don't have beating hearts, dumbass.

[Cal Smith]

Hahahaha

Sounds funny but it's just like your arbitrary lable of "living"

[fedhed7]

see you've already changed your defentition like 3 times.

First, it was a bundle of cells isnt a life
Second, life is only when you can live outside the mother
Third, live has to be a bundle of cells with developed brain tissue, heart tissue, and skin tissue.

Thats not changing anything... I'm just getting more specific each time.

Life is a body that has the ability to live outside of the mother, and the only way to do this is have developed organs.

[fedhed7]

Your sperm don't have beating hearts, dumbass.

It was a joke, dumbass.

[Cal Smith]

Thats not changing anything... I'm just getting more specific each time.

Life is a body that has the ability to live outside of the mother, and the only way to do this is have developed organs.

No, life is the ability to live outside the mother, have developed organs, and be able to communicate with speech.

**do you see where this is going?**

[fedhed7]

There have been babies viable after 20 weeks of conception.... They've gone on to live healthy lives separate from their mothers... If you're born before that, and you will die no matter what, I can't consider that a life.

[fedhed7]

No, life is the ability to live outside the mother, have developed organs, and be able to communicate with speech.

**do you see where this is going?**

Yes, i do.

[Cal Smith]

There have been babies viable after 20 weeks of conception.... They've gone on to live healthy lives separate from their mothers... If you're born before that, and you will die no matter what, I can't consider that a life.

Why? Are you truly that comfortable with "YOUR" defenition of life that you're willing to risk the possible lives of others based on "YOUR" defention?

If so you are the defenition of either extreme confidence or extreme arrogance.

Someone like me could be just as confident or arrogant to believe life doesn't start until you can speak, until you can walk, or somehting just as crazy.

[fedhed7]

Why? Are you truly that comfortable with "YOUR" defenition of life that you're willing to risk the possible lives of others based on "YOUR" defention?

If so you are the defenition of either extreme confidence or extreme arrogance.

Not necessarily. You have to draw the line somewhere. There is a deadline for when a baby is "alive" and viability is the closest thing we have to determining that.

[Cal Smith]

Not necessarily. You have to draw the line somewhere. There is a deadline for when a baby is "alive" and viability is the closest thing we have to determining that.

If you have that much confidence in your choices about life. If you can feel the stomach of a pregnant woman kicking, if you can see the child inside the womb, and still tell me your confident enough to give that child a thumbsdown to live..............I hope you sleep with a clear mind each night.

[fedhed7]

If you have that much confidence in your choices about life. If you can feel the stomach of a pregnant woman kicking, if you can see the child inside the womb, and still tell me your confident enough to give that child a thumbsdown to live..............I hope you sleep with a clear mind each night.

If a woman truly wants to choose that path, there shouldn't be a federal law prohibiting her from doing that. If the baby isn't viable yet, it's still part of her own body.

[Lueda Alia]

Your sperm don't have beating hearts, dumbass.
a fetus does not have a heartbeat either (at first), smarty pants.

way to miss the point, though.

[Lueda Alia]

I don't really get why people think it's a "woman's decision" what she does for herself, because there are two lives involved.
hmm maybe because the fetus grows inside of her body?

it's just an idea, though.

[splitsecond]

I really hate this debate. Its so fucking circular.

[Lueda Alia]

haha I know, which is why I don't want to debate about abortion anymore. but new people always start a thread about it.

[splitsecond]

maybe we should just make a sticky poll with like 4-5 options and not allow people to reply, and if they start it again, we will tell them to take it to their jr high social studies class and ban them.

[lightcollapse]

yeah, why the fuck did someone revive this thread?

okay, so heres my opinion.

abortion has to be legal, because of rape. a 12 year old girl gets raped and becomes pregnant, and has a brain condition where if she has the baby she dies. it takes too long to get a judgement on the rape case, so the abortion has to be performed without a court order. also, abortions will always happen, just in back alleys, so by legalizing abortions people are protecting society. also, nobodys definition of life is the same, since there is no official set-in-stone beginning of life. so it wouldn't make sense for the government to base a law on an opinion that around half the country disagrees with. with abortions legalized, those who don't believe in it won't have them, and those who have a different definition of life will. if it was illegalized, there would be health problems, a ridiculous amount of debate surrounding rape victims, and it would probably launch a whole religious vs. scientific debate about conception that would never end IMO.

[Justin_stacy]

yeah, why the fuck did someone revive this thread?

.

because people like you have to keep spouting out your opinions on the subject.....follow the example of the left and just let it die. And hope no one will start a new thread.

[exxxoduss]

If you want to base you argument on this and believe it all comes down to the fact abortions are going to happen so they should be legal. You should reconsider every single law we have in this country.

Speeding, murder, rape, molestation, assault, abuse, etc........, etc..........., etc..........., etc..............., are all going to happen but I doubt your argument would extend to them?

OK, first off, point out one spot in my whole argument where i said anything about the word legel? Two, as of right now abortion is a legal thing to do if you want to get into the law part of this. speeding, murder, rape, molestation, assault, abuse, etc..... are all illegal. so yes my agrument is valid and would not extend to these because abortion so far is legal.

[qoute=Xking'sX]I don't really get why people think it's a "woman's decision" what she does for herself, because there are two lives involved.[/quote]

how the hell is it not a womens decision? the women is carrying the fetus. the women has the right and should have the right to decide whether or not to keep the fetus inside of her for it to grow into a living child.

a life does not start until birth. a fetus does not have a memory of living. being outside of a mother and able to breath, have brain functionality, that is life.

[exxxoduss]

yeah, why the fuck did someone revive this thread?

okay, so heres my opinion.

abortion has to be legal, because of rape. a 12 year old girl gets raped and becomes pregnant, and has a brain condition where if she has the baby she dies. it takes too long to get a judgement on the rape case, so the abortion has to be performed without a court order. also, abortions will always happen, just in back alleys, so by legalizing abortions people are protecting society. also, nobodys definition of life is the same, since there is no official set-in-stone beginning of life. so it wouldn't make sense for the government to base a law on an opinion that around half the country disagrees with. with abortions legalized, those who don't believe in it won't have them, and those who have a different definition of life will. if it was illegalized, there would be health problems, a ridiculous amount of debate surrounding rape victims, and it would probably launch a whole religious vs. scientific debate about conception that would never end IMO.

If abortion was illegal, it wouldn't still happen in back alley's. it would either be done in home, by paying a doctor willing to do it, and i know there would be doctors that would do it because of the money. also, i could see some doctors having it in there offices still, just keeping it under cover, and providing false information on documentation to help get shit covered up.

[Darren McLeod]

Hey kids! Guess what?

You're not changing anyone's opinion, so give up!

[The Agent]

The ethics debate is irrelavent and silly.
The purpose of a government is not to be an ethical authority. Why? I present to you the very basics of the social contract theory (focusing on the terminology of Thomas Hobbes, but it applies to all of them, from Rousseau to Locke to Kant to Rawls).
We establish a government as an alternative to anarchy, where freedoms are unlimited and unrestricted (I have the right to kill you, even though I have the moral obligation not to). What the government is is a collective agreement to suspend the execution of certain liberties (such as the right to kill) that in turn makes us all safer. We establish a judicial system with agents such as a police force to regulate the punishment for breaking the contract.
See where I'm going with this? The ethical debate HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LEGALIZATION OF ABORTION. A ban is only justified if it promotes the general welfare, which, looking at pre-Roe v Wade numbers, is not the case. Abortions still happen: they just happen in back alleys, causing a DETRIMENT to the welfare of both the individual and the general public. Personally, I am BOTH pro-choice and pro-life. I think that abortion is horrible, abominable, and kind of gross too. But that's an ethical dillemma, and not a political one. So to those who say 'ZOMG ABORSHUN IS T3H RONG," please cut it out.

[LeftWideOpen]

can we put in motion some sort of genocide-type deal on this website where everyone that joined starting in 2005 is wiped out???

just an idea. i know, im an elitist prick.

[The Agent]

can we put in motion some sort of genocide-type deal on this website where everyone that joined starting in 2005 is wiped out???

just an idea. i know, im an elitist prick.I would outline your xenophobia, but you seem to not only be aware of it, but embrace it. I don't know what to say. Am I just that destructive to your community? :\

[lightcollapse]

The ethics debate is irrelavent and silly.
The purpose of a government is not to be an ethical authority. Why? I present to you the very basics of the social contract theory (focusing on the terminology of Thomas Hobbes, but it applies to all of them, from Rousseau to Locke to Kant to Rawls).
We establish a government as an alternative to anarchy, where freedoms are unlimited and unrestricted (I have the right to kill you, even though I have the moral obligation not to). What the government is is a collective agreement to suspend the execution of certain liberties (such as the right to kill) that in turn makes us all safer. We establish a judicial system with agents such as a police force to regulate the punishment for breaking the contract.
See where I'm going with this? The ethical debate HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LEGALIZATION OF ABORTION. A ban is only justified if it promotes the general welfare, which, looking at pre-Roe v Wade numbers, is not the case. Abortions still happen: they just happen in back alleys, causing a DETRIMENT to the welfare of both the individual and the general public. Personally, I am BOTH pro-choice and pro-life. I think that abortion is horrible, abominable, and kind of gross too. But that's an ethical dillemma, and not a political one. So to those who say 'ZOMG ABORSHUN IS T3H RONG," please cut it out.

i applaud you, sir.

[lightcollapse]

Hey kids! Guess what?

You're not changing anyone's opinion, so give up!

nobody's trying to. we're just arguing.

[LeftWideOpen]

I would outline your xenophobia, but you seem to not only be aware of it, but embrace it. I don't know what to say. Am I just that destructive to your community? :\

no, you're just annoying and saying everything thats been said before. it's been beaten to death. Not all newbs are terrible, just people like you. you've been here one day and you are acting like a big shot. So, if complete removal is too harsh I guess we could just throw all of you in one section of this site, say the self-promotion forum, and pretend you guys dont exist (kinda like how we treated the Japs in World War 2).

[unwritten]

I'm in-between. It really depends upon the situation.....like rape for example would be a valid reason. If you have some bitch just getting abortions just because its an easy way out, then I have a problem with it.

[The Agent]

no, you're just annoying and saying everything thats been said before. it's been beaten to death. Not all newbs are terrible, just people like you. you've been here one day and you are acting like a big shot. So, if complete removal is too harsh I guess we could just throw all of you in one section of this site, say the self-promotion forum, and pretend you guys dont exist (kinda like how we treated the Japs in World War 2).I read the thread, and because the ethics card was still being played, I felt it necessary to reclarify with my own signature, because past attempts had apparently failed. How on earth does that make it seem like I'm acting like a big-shot? Because I was arrogant enough to post without being fallacious? Jesus Christ, this is esoteric. Not that I should have expected much more from a music site, in retrospect.

[dai the flu]

I read the thread, and because the ethics card was still being played, I felt it necessary to reclarify with my own signature, because past attempts had apparently failed. How on earth does that make it seem like I'm acting like a big-shot? Because I was arrogant enough to post without being fallacious? Jesus Christ, this is esoteric. Not that I should have expected much more from a music site, in retrospect.
dont bother even trying to understand this, i know i dont.
but on this site, post count = intelligence and relevance.
i know, i know. 1800+ posts you'd expect more but thats not the way it works. he's smarter than you, you'll just have to accept it.

[The Agent]

It seems arbitrary and nativist, but I can deal with it for the time being. Culture doesn't bother me (no matter how obscenely stupid it may be), so long as I know what it is. Thanks for the clarification. Very postmodern.

[Cal Smith]

The ethics debate is irrelavent and silly.
The purpose of a government is not to be an ethical authority. Why? I present to you the very basics of the social contract theory (focusing on the terminology of Thomas Hobbes, but it applies to all of them, from Rousseau to Locke to Kant to Rawls).
We establish a government as an alternative to anarchy, where freedoms are unlimited and unrestricted (I have the right to kill you, even though I have the moral obligation not to). What the government is is a collective agreement to suspend the execution of certain liberties (such as the right to kill) that in turn makes us all safer. We establish a judicial system with agents such as a police force to regulate the punishment for breaking the contract.
See where I'm going with this? The ethical debate HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LEGALIZATION OF ABORTION. A ban is only justified if it promotes the general welfare, which, looking at pre-Roe v Wade numbers, is not the case. Abortions still happen: they just happen in back alleys, causing a DETRIMENT to the welfare of both the individual and the general public. Personally, I am BOTH pro-choice and pro-life. I think that abortion is horrible, abominable, and kind of gross too. But that's an ethical dillemma, and not a political one. So to those who say 'ZOMG ABORSHUN IS T3H RONG," please cut it out.

And this is exactly where abortion falls for many. What you're saying is correct but I don't seperate abortion with "killing" like you do. Simply a disagreement of terms I guess.

[The Agent]

You have a great point, Cal, but it misses the point. You see, fetal murder is not one that, emprically and theoretically, has been proven to be preventable by a governing authority. Post-fetal murder has.

[Cal Smith]

You have a great point, Cal, but it misses the point. You see, fetal murder is not one that, emprically and theoretically, has been proven to be preventable by a governing authority. Post-fetal murder has.

So because it's still theory from what you argue it should not be considered plausible? I mean what you argue above about the social contract theorists, is just that.......a theory. It's worth arguing and considering though.

I'd disagee either way because I dont think post-fetal murder is something that has been proven to be preventable.

[The Agent]

[quote=Cal Smith]So because it's still theory from what you argue it should not be considered plausible? I mean what you argue above about the social contract theorists, is just that.......a theory. It's worth arguing and considering though. quote]God forbid I provide a debateable theory in a forum so devoid of 'debate' as... politics!
Yes, I agree: the social contract theory is flawed (although you didn't warrent any attack on it except for 'it hasn't been proven as a scientific law!'). I reject it under an anarchist paradigm (which is obviously pro-choice anyway). But I'm not using it here: I'm using the social contract paradigm that is necessary to take when you engage in legal discourse to prove that abortion is ideally legal UNDER IT.

And when I say 'post-fetal murder is preventable', I probably worded it wrong. Not that it would refute my paradigm if it wasn't, I'll clarify the hell of it. What I meant was a government institution that bans post-fetal murder has proven to be a deterrant against future crime to the extent that it upholds the social contract. Fetal murder hasn't.

In all honesty, though, I really, really thank you for respecting me enough to attack my contentions rather than my post count.

[Cal Smith]

So because it's still theory from what you argue it should not be considered plausible? I mean what you argue above about the social contract theorists, is just that.......a theory. It's worth arguing and considering though.

God forbid I provide a debateable theory in a forum so devoid of 'debate' as... politics!
Yes, I agree: the social contract theory is flawed (although you didn't warrent any attack on it except for 'it hasn't been proven as a scientific law!'). I reject it under an anarchist paradigm (which is obviously pro-choice anyway). But I'm not using it here: I'm using the social contract paradigm that is necessary to take when you engage in legal discourse to prove that abortion is ideally legal UNDER IT.

And when I say 'post-fetal murder is preventable', I probably worded it wrong. Not that it would refute my paradigm if it wasn't, I'll clarify the hell of it. What I meant was a government institution that bans post-fetal murder has proven to be a deterrant against future crime to the extent that it upholds the social contract. Fetal murder hasn't.

In all honesty, though, I really, really thank you for respecting me enough to attack my contentions rather than my post count.

So if I were able to show you that a ban on fetal murder has proven to be a detarrant against future crime you'd accpet it as also upholding the social contract?

[dai the flu]

i guess my opinions have changed somewhat.
though i still feel that abortion is ethically and morally wrong, i dont feel its the government's place to dictate what is ethical or not. so i guess abortion should be legal. i just feel its completely unconscionable.

and i think cal made a really good point but it was overlooked.
if its the womans right to decide for herself, you know the whole "i didnt choose to get pregnant, its my life..." attitude, then is it ok for the father to decide not to financially support a child he fathered? he didnt choose to be a dad either, its his life, why should he be made to pay for a mistake made in the past? the condom broke, i didnt want a baby, im not gonna let myself be burdened with it because its my life.
is that ok?

[getupkid53]

well i must say, you've made a complete dumbass out of yourself. for one abortion should be a personal decision. a woman is entitled to have an abortion if she wants to.

by all means if you can find that person, get them on the ground and stomp on their face well stomp away, but don't make stupid ass comments that are irrelavent to what we are talking about. and lets just say, yes you do have the right to stomp on someones face if you'd like to, just like women should have the right to choose.

its none of your god damn business what other people do. the topic of abortion is shared amoung the whole united states but when it comes down to it, the abortions are going to happen, and i don't think that the federal government, state government, and anyone should tell another person that they are not allowed to have the right to choose. that is part of the reason we live in the united states, to have the freedom to choose.



this isn't a god damn english class, get off peoples ass about grammer and the use of an "English paragraph". make a point, don't get on here and say stupid ass shit because you have nothing better to do. and roe v wade doesn't fucking matter here, these are all opinions not a court case. don't site other peoples views, the courts views, and not site your opinion.

If you had taken the time to read the thread before posting... You would have seen that I've already stated my opinion, possibly numerous times and have formulated an argument laced with actual facts as opposed to rants like the one above. As for my statement, it wasn't irrelevant... you said people should be able to do what they want, and I was citing something people may want to do. I was just pointing out how 'anarchy' doesn't work. Your response actually proves that it was not irrelevant and goes to show that your level of intelligence (or lack thereof). I'm all for you having an opinion, but don't come in here and think that your's trumps everyone else's. And as for Roe v. Wade, it is the governments official position on abortion, I don't see why you wouldn't bring it up. Pretty much everything you said was said before, and in a much more tasteful manner. I imagine everyone here wishes you would have just read what was there instead of reposting your jibberish.

[Nat06]

no i dont believ in aboration

[lightcollapse]

no i dont believ in aboration

way to contribute to the discussion.

[kidinthecorner]

In case anyone's interested because of my other thread, I'll post my views.

I used to be diehard pro-life, or more-specifically, anti-abortion, but have since refined my views to say that, sure, if there's a problem, go ahead and abort it. But there are plenty of ways to prevent having it come that far, if you've managed to avoid them, you've accepted the risks of having sex and should not be able to use abortion as a birth control method because, simply ,it's an inconvenience.

[lightcollapse]

In case anyone's interested because of my other thread, I'll post my views.

I used to be diehard pro-life, or more-specifically, anti-abortion, but have since refined my views to say that, sure, if there's a problem, go ahead and abort it. But there are plenty of ways to prevent having it come that far, if you've managed to avoid them, you've accepted the risks of having sex and should not be able to use abortion as a birth control method because, simply ,it's an inconvenience.

from a legal POV?

[splitsecond]

why The Fuck Is This Debate Still Going?????

[lightcollapse]

why The Fuck Is This Debate Still Going?????

why not?

[boldt_action]

why The Fuck Is This Debate Still Going?????

[/slade]

seriously, don't post shit like that.

And, so you know, I bumped this thread, because it's good debate as long as people have well thought out arguments and no one is getting mad. It's a good thread, better than 75% of the threads on this site. So, I bumped it. We don't have to kill each other and we all have different views. For example, I love fedhed cause he loves 24, however, I disagree with him on the issue of abortion. We can still be 24 buddies. No problem. I like this thread because it shows intelligence by a lot of posters, and lack of by others. That's why I bumped it, and why the debate goes on.

[kidinthecorner]

from a legal POV?
I think I have to pussy out here and say, no, there really isn't a way that I see to legally enforce my view, unless you were to be required to have a legitimate reason, which would have to be predetermined and on a list. I just kinda wish there was enough moral conviction to uphold my view.

[Cal Smith]

I think I have to pussy out here and say, no, there really isn't a way that I see to legally enforce my view, unless you were to be required to have a legitimate reason, which would have to be predetermined and on a list. I just kinda wish there was enough moral conviction to uphold my view.

They do it in N. Ireland. Now sure, many women go somwhere else to have an abortion but I believe I read there has been only like 700 abortions since 1997 or so. Even more suprisingly to those who think women will be dying everwhere from back ally abortions, I believe they've said there's only been 5 deaths or so from that.

[dai the flu]

i think a good point that was briefly touched on, either in this topic or the other abortion topic was, and i agree, abortion seems to be viewed almost like a form of birth control. and that makes me sick.

[DanceToThisBeat]

im totally pro-life
abortion is just as bad as murder. even though theyre only a couple months old, babies are real people. they have rights just like any other person in america. i mean, we want the cure for cancer,correct? well doctors might have aborted the child that could have found it. without abortion, this world might be such a better place. what if they had aborted sonny more? claudio sanchez? or like any other rock star.

[ClapClapSnap]

im totally pro-life
abortion is just as bad as murder. even though theyre only a couple months old, babies are real people. they have rights just like any other person in america. i mean, we want the cure for cancer,correct? well doctors might have aborted the child that could have found it. without abortion, this world might be such a better place. what if they had aborted sonny more? claudio sanchez? or like any other rock star.

what if you got raped by some disgusting man in an alley? would you want that child? his child?

what about a 13 year old young girl who gets molested by her fucked up dad or uncle and ets pregnant? the child will be born with serious problems...would you want her to have that child?


i'm not one way or another, but i think there are too many issues for you to be entirely pro-life or entirely pro-choice

[andrewlterry]

I'm Pro-life. But I think both sides can agree that they don't want to kill babies.

[Cal Smith]

what if you got raped by some disgusting man in an alley? would you want that child? his child?

what about a 13 year old young girl who gets molested by her fucked up dad or uncle and ets pregnant? the child will be born with serious problems...would you want her to have that child?


i'm not one way or another, but i think there are too many issues for you to be entirely pro-life or entirely pro-choice

I'm tired of this idea of equating what's right from wrong based on what your desires are. That's not how life works. There are many, many things we don't want to do as humans but we have to do them. On the flip side there are many things we do want to do as humans but we shouldnt.

[gilatron5000]

I'm new, and I am so not reading all 28 pages. So, if I restate points already made, I apologize.

im a pro lifer. i think there are so many parents in the world who cannot have children and who would love to have children. plus life is very awsome and deserves to be loved and taken care of.This is pretty much where I stand, although I think the problem in this country is lack of responsibility. You wanna have sex, fine. But you have to recognize that THAT'S HOW BABIES ARE MADE. If you don't want a kid. Don't have sex. It's as simple as that.

My motto is, you fucked in your bed, now you get to sleep in the stain. Crude, but I think it works.

But I also recognize that there are other complications in this issue. Rape, incest, Dangerous to the mother, etc. I guess you could say I'm only pro-choice in those situations.

[ClapClapSnap]

I'm tired of this idea of equating what's right from wrong based on what your desires are. That's not how life works. There are many, many things we don't want to do as humans but we have to do them. On the flip side there are many things we do want to do as humans but we shouldnt.

well for me, i know that i got dragged into an alley, and got raped by some digusting man, i WOULD NOT want that child. but if i got pregnant by mistake with a boyfriend, abortion wouldn't be an option.

i don't want to say it, but i think women look at this differently [or at least the ones i know]