Pro-Life or Pro-Choice?

[justsomenumber]

which are you?

[Kram41]

First the pill, now abortion?

[I am all talk]

does this come with a poll?

[youcomebeforeyo]

Pro-Choice.

I like my semi liberal New Zealand eutopia where we don't have this debate.

[Dan Hollister]

I'm Pro-Choice, but I still think discretion should be used before an abortion.

For example... a teenage girl getting pregnant by accident and having no way to support herself or give the baby a good life... ok, fine. Very very worthy of abortion.

But then there was a woman who was an upper-class writer/lecturer living in Manhattan, who wasn't married and got pregnant with triplets. So she had 2 of them aborted, not because she couldn't take care of the kids, (she was rich) but purely because, as she said, she didn't want to spend her life at Costco or be forced to be a stay-at-home mom.

Those kind of people are stupid. I still am pro-choice, but I still don't think it's fine for fetuses to just be aborted for no reason at all. I think people should still use their brains first.

[odnetnin]

I am totally for abortions for a number of reasons.

[lovely864md]

I wouldnt get one, but if you want one thats your business.

[Lueda Alia]

I wouldnt get one, but if you want one thats your business.
Exactly.


There's too many of these threads here.

[yeat182]

I'm Pro-Choice, but I still think discretion should be used before an abortion.

For example... a teenage girl getting pregnant by accident and having no way to support herself or give the baby a good life... ok, fine. Very very worthy of abortion.

But then there was a woman who was an upper-class writer/lecturer living in Manhattan, who wasn't married and got pregnant with triplets. So she had 2 of them aborted, not because she couldn't take care of the kids, (she was rich) but purely because, as she said, she didn't want to spend her life at Costco or be forced to be a stay-at-home mom.

Those kind of people are stupid. I still am pro-choice, but I still don't think it's fine for fetuses to just be aborted for no reason at all. I think people should still use their brains first.

i agree

[justsomenumber]

First the pill, now abortion?

Hey now, its just making convosation.

[FOBcareemo]

Pro-choice but with alarge amount of forethought

[Kram41]

Legalized abortion lowers the crime rate too (kind of)! Read Freakonomics.

[theESCO]

I've aborted a number of children.

[I am all talk]

I consider myself Pro-life through choice. Meaning I wish we didn't have abortions but I'm realistic enough to know that legal or illegal they are still going to take place. I would hope that people make the choice to go through with the pregnancy but I would never take the option of an abortion away from them.

[i like guitars]

im a pro lifer. i think there are so many parents in the world who cannot have children and who would love to have children. plus life is very awsome and deserves to be loved and taken care of.

[commatosa]

AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This has been a friggin topic 1 million times. Not even exaggerating.

[heyRomanticA__x]

pro-choice. But, if you have enough know how to open your legs, you better know how to take care of that baby. Condoms are available every where, use one.

[FScott]

WHAT ABOUT ADOPTION!!!!!! Everybody wins. Why end life when you can promote life. Of course there are exceptions such as rape and if the mothers life is in danger. (And no Im not a republican)

[apoemtothedead]

I'm Pro-Choice, but I still think discretion should be used before an abortion.

For example... a teenage girl getting pregnant by accident and having no way to support herself or give the baby a good life... ok, fine. Very very worthy of abortion.

But then there was a woman who was an upper-class writer/lecturer living in Manhattan, who wasn't married and got pregnant with triplets. So she had 2 of them aborted, not because she couldn't take care of the kids, (she was rich) but purely because, as she said, she didn't want to spend her life at Costco or be forced to be a stay-at-home mom.

Those kind of people are stupid. I still am pro-choice, but I still don't think it's fine for fetuses to just be aborted for no reason at all. I think people should still use their brains first.
:ditto:

[Darren McLeod]

I consider myself Pro-life through choice. Meaning I wish we didn't have abortions but I'm realistic enough to know that legal or illegal they are still going to take place. I would hope that people make the choice to go through with the pregnancy but I would never take the option of an abortion away from them.
Good call.

There are some scenarios where abortion is right - rape, harm to the mother, etc. But with abortions in other situations... one has to consider that you are taking away a life, and I don't know why it's okay to kill this life while it's in a womb, but once it has left the mother, killing it is murder. Such a thin line to walk.

[Lueda Alia]

Good call.

There are some scenarios where abortion is right - rape, harm to the mother, etc. But with abortions in other situations... one has to consider that you are taking away a life, and I don't know why it's okay to kill this life while it's in a womb, but once it has left the mother, killing it is murder. Such a thin line to walk.
Not necessarily. It simply depends on what you consider "a life."

But I don't really want to get into this. I'm debating whether or not to close it because there's so many threads like this around.

[Darren McLeod]

Not necessarily. It simply depends on what you consider "a life."

But I don't really want to get into this. I'm debating whether or not to close it because there's so many threads like this around.
Yeah, for sure. That's the thing, it's such a fuzzy grey area that there really is no right or wrong answer, just opinions. Just like religion, and most politics.

[Lueda Alia]

Yeah, for sure. That's the thing, it's such a fuzzy grey area that there really is no right or wrong answer, just opinions. Just like religion, and most politics.
Exactly. That is honestly exactly why I think people should have the choice to decide, because everyone feels so differently about it.

[Darren McLeod]

Exactly. That is honestly exactly why I think people should have the choice to decide, because everyone feels so differently about it.
Oh, for sure.

[justinevans]

i feel abortions should be allowed for rape and if the parents cannot afford to provide for their child. Because of loopholes, I think if girls want an abortion due to rape they should have to goto the police and atleast try to identify that person. Who cares if he is/was a friend? you don't do that shit. Also, if the pregnancy would greatly damage the health of the child or mother.

Then again, I am a guy...the girl does not even have to notify me if she is having one.

[JacksColdSweat]

If the government reversed Roe vs. Wade it wouldnt change anything. Women would just go and get unsafe, illegal abortions.

[Rebs]

pro-choice

[notetoxself]

I am more pro choice since people should have the choice to have it or not since it depends also on the situation...

[splitsecond]

I think that 95% of the world should have required abortion. What does that make me?

[youcomebeforeyo]

I think that 95% of the world should have required abortion. What does that make me?

Stupid?

[Ratherbedead22]

"I have a different stance on abortion: I'm against abortion, but for killing babies. That way everyone loses, and I win. I'm neither pro choice, nor pro life; I'm pro you-shutting-the-hell-up. The only way I'd be "pro choice" is if it meant I could choose which babies I could abort, and only then if I could lift the age restriction to 80. I was at this mall the other day watching some shitty documentary when I came out of the theater and saw old people dancing to country music in the courtyard. I couldn't remember the last time I saw a group of people begging this hard to be aborted."

mmmmm, maddox.

[Carlo Marx]

My opinion: Unless you're a girl, you shouldn't have an opinion. It isn't your body.

If you're a guy in a relationship and you get your girl pregnant, you two should be able to discuss the choice. But since you can't physically strap a girl down and force her to get an abortion, she's going to get the last say in the matter.

personally, I belive women have the right to choose.

[heyRomanticA__x]

Sucks there isn't a way to keep track of abortions. Honestly, if we could keep track of how many each girl has per-year, maybe the law makers can come up with something.

[FScott]

WHAT ABOUT ADOPTION!!!!!! Everybody wins. Why end life when you can promote life. Of course there are exceptions such as rape and if the mothers life is in danger. (And no Im not a republican)

..I beleive there is no catch

[lackofcolour 13]

My opinion: Unless you're a girl, you shouldn't have an opinion. It isn't your body.

If you're a guy in a relationship and you get your girl pregnant, you two should be able to discuss the choice. But since you can't physically strap a girl down and force her to get an abortion, she's going to get the last say in the matter.

personally, I belive women have the right to choose.

man. fuck women.


pro-life and misogyny.

thats all I need.

[Carlo Marx]

man. fuck women.


pro-life and misogyny.

thats all I need.

how about we just feed all the babies we don't want to the hungry?

two birds killed with one stone.

[splitsecond]

man. fuck women.


pro-life and misogyny.

thats all I need.


Comments like these make me miss scene points. Classic.

[dai the flu]

pro-life

[wyverna]

man. fuck women.


pro-life and misogyny.

thats all I need.

isn't that how this all started?

[Katie Schmitz]

pro choice

[Kid Kilowatt]

Pro-death

[getupkid53]

If the government reversed Roe vs. Wade it wouldnt change anything. Women would just go and get unsafe, illegal abortions.

Wrong. If the government reversed Roe v. Wade, it would just leave the matter up to the states. In which case, some states would allow, and others (mostly in the south) would make abortion illegal. This would lead to people either moving out of state, or having the abortion performed out of state. If it were overturned (as stated before) it would just cause an uprising and divide the far right further from the far left and leave most of us (moderately either way, but still sane) wondering why our government (liberal or conservative) isn't representing the nation as a whole, but rather select pro or anti abortion activists.

I consider myself pro-life, but this issue doesn't define my electoral choices. I do believe a baby can feel, and was proud that partial birth abortions were made illegal. Any research into the subject and you would have to be emotionally numb to feel otherwise (baby's are partially birthed head first, their skull is then sawed open, and the doctor removes and disposes of the brain). I believe if someone is reponsible enough to have sex (and dumb enough to not use protection... I know sometimes they break, but come on), they have the responsibility to carry the baby to term and leave it up for adoption. Rich or poor, adoption is a simple answer.

If the mother is a crack fiend, has communicable diseases, I think it may be better to abort the baby than have it live a half life with an addiction or a fatal disease. I also believe in cases of rape, incest, or when the mother's life is in danger, the baby should be aborted.

[nateisawesome]

Pro-life

[a speedo model]

pro-life. if you don't want a baby, use a fucking condom or shut your legs. dumb choices lead to consequences, live with that.

[Dan Hollister]

pro-life. if you don't want a baby, use a fucking condom or shut your legs. dumb choices lead to consequences, live with that.

No birth control works 100%. (Except abstinence.)

[a speedo model]

No birth control works 100%. (Except abstinence.)

if they know the risk, and still have sex, then they need to deal with the consequences. aborition is just a quick fix for everyone who can't face up to their responsibilites.

[sleepygrlgreen]

which are you?there are too many exceptions for me to be one or the other.

[Lueda Alia]

pro-life. if you don't want a baby, use a fucking condom or shut your legs. dumb choices lead to consequences, live with that.
way to post something really smart.

[noodledancer]

pro-choice

I believe if someone is reponsible enough to have sex (and dumb enough to not use protection... I know sometimes they break, but come on), they have the responsibility to carry the baby to term and leave it up for adoption. Rich or poor, adoption is a simple answer.

this is outrageous on so many levels...

[flynmnkyo'death]

pro-choice

[Carlo Marx]

pro-life. if you don't want a baby, use a fucking condom or shut your legs. dumb choices lead to consequences, live with that.

so tell me, is ignorance really as blissful as they say?

[sleepygrlgreen]

Quote:
Originally Posted by getupkid53
I believe if someone is reponsible enough to have sex (and dumb enough to not use protection... I know sometimes they break, but come on), they have the responsibility to carry the baby to term and leave it up for adoption. Rich or poor, adoption is a simple answer.

I couldn't find the post so.....copy and paste! Anyway, you seriously think that would be the best way? Look at how many children are stuck in adoption homes because nobody wants them.

[lightcollapse]

hypothetical situation (this happened to the woman who lived around the block from me)a woman has 4 kids, and is extremely religious. she gets pregnant, again. but this time she finds out she has a brain condition where if she has the baby she dies. she goes to her local church, which tells her to have the kid.she has the kid, dies, and now theres a middle class dad, 5 children, and he went from his ideal life to a totally fucked up situation. the love of his life is dead, he's a 5-kid single dad, and the kids who were alive before are going to be fucked up forever at the loss of their mom. not to mention the guilt the new kid will feel.i'm pro lchoice.

[Carlo Marx]

hypothetical situation (this happened to the woman who lived around the block from me)a woman has 4 kids, and is extremely religious. she gets pregnant, again. but this time she finds out she has a brain condition where if she has the baby she dies. she goes to her local church, which tells her to have the kid.she has the kid, dies, and now theres a middle class dad, 5 children, and he went from his ideal life to a totally fucked up situation. the love of his life is dead, he's a 5-kid single dad, and the kids who were alive before are going to be fucked up forever at the loss of their mom. not to mention the guilt the new kid will feel.i'm pro life.

uh, don't you mean pro choice?

[Katie Schmitz]

I've said this before and I'll say it again, Pro-fucking-choice.

[getupkid53]

I couldn't find the post so.....copy and paste! Anyway, you seriously think that would be the best way? Look at how many children are stuck in adoption homes because nobody wants them.

If you knew the wait to adopt a white baby you're thoughts would differ. It takes nearly two years for an adoption to take place because of the 'shortage' of healthy white babies. You can't base the amount of children in foster care on people not having abortions. Kids in foster care come from many different sources. Parents being killed, divorce, runaways, parents with insufficient incomes, and child neglect cases are just some of the factors that have children in foster care. Also, a considerable amount of children in foster care aren't newborns, and most families don't want, in car terms (sorry), a used model. It's unfortunate, but its part of the circle of life.

[dai the flu]

pro-life. convenience is not a reason to kill.

[VinnyVegas]

I always wondered if people thought that male masturbation was considered abortion. Technically it is 50% of what is needed to create a human, and it is a living organism. The same can be said for a woman when she is fertile and "wastes" her eggs. It is 50% of what is needed to create a human, and it is living. What makes this any different than if it had developed into a 2 week old organism known as a "human"? Is the batter used to make brownies any different than the cooked brownies?

[boldt_action]

if they know the risk, and still have sex, then they need to deal with the consequences. aborition is just a quick fix for everyone who can't face up to their responsibilites.

i concur, it seems that abortion has become the convenient thing to do to get rid of an "inconvenience" or another life. it's immature, and downright scary that a lot of society thinks there is nothing wrong with taking an innocent babies life, (it's as if dead baby jokes aren't that far off anymore). But seriously, i think that those are the consequences. I have a question about that mother who died having that kid, my question is..who is to say that that mother is more important than that baby. They're both people, you can't prioritize, this person is worth more than this one cause of their age, bullshit. It's not up to us, and i think it's scary how much we take matters of life and death into our own hands. Pro-life.

[boldt_action]

I always wondered if people thought that male masturbation was considered abortion. Technically it is 50% of what is needed to create a human, and it is a living organism. The same can be said for a woman when she is fertile and "wastes" her eggs. It is 50% of what is needed to create a human, and it is living. What makes this any different than if it had developed into a 2 week old organism known as a "human"? Is the batter used to make brownies any different than the cooked brownies?

you just answered your own question, it's only 50% of a human, not a whole one, making it....NOT A HUMAN! go take sex ed over again

[Justin_stacy]

way to post something really smart.

it may not have been eloquent, but he's right.......

[VinnyVegas]

you just answered your own question, it's only 50% of a human, not a whole one, making it....NOT A HUMAN! go take sex ed over again

The parts make up the whole is my point. You said that it is 50% of a human, thus making it part of a human. Is a car without an engine, still a car? Yes.

[boldt_action]

The parts make up the whole is my point. You said that it is 50% of a human, thus making it part of a human. Is a car without an engine, still a car? Yes.

alright, apparantly we're gonna need to do a little lesson here, how it works is that the egg and the sperm are seperate until they come together and form the embryo. or whatever the word is for the first stage. each cell (sperm or egg) only contains half of the chromosomes needed to form a human being, this is what separates humans from the other animals, their DNA makeup...their chromosomes. Since these cells only contain half of the needed chromosomes, they are not human. I hope i've made things crystal clear for you. This is a ridiculous argument, by the by.

[VinnyVegas]

alright, apparantly we're gonna need to do a little lesson here, how it works is that the egg and the sperm are seperate until they come together and form the embryo. or whatever the word is for the first stage. each cell (sperm or egg) only contains half of the chromosomes needed to form a human being, this is what separates humans from the other animals, their DNA makeup...their chromosomes. Since these cells only contain half of the needed chromosomes, they are not human. I hope i've made things crystal clear for you. This is a ridiculous argument, by the by.

I know it's a ridiculous argument, that's why I brought it up. The term "human" is relative to the person who uses it. My sperm/egg example is just as ridiculous to most pro-lifers, as the pro-life stance is to most pro-choicers. I'm simply trying to let those who support the pro-life stance, see where the pro-choice people are coming from. There was probably a better a way to go about it, but at least it made for an entertaining 15 minutes.

[boldt_action]

I know it's a ridiculous argument, that's why I brought it up. The term "human" is relative to the person who uses it. My sperm/egg example is just as ridiculous to most pro-lifers, as the pro-life stance is to most pro-choicers. I'm simply trying to let those who support the pro-life stance, see where the pro-choice people are coming from. There was probably a better a way to go about it, but at least it made for an entertaining 15 minutes.
but that's where you're wrong the term human is not relative, a human does not exist with out all the chromosomes, it's not human. i kind of understand what your trying to say, but i know to me, once those chromosomes have come together, you have a human, you have all the DNA makeup there. and that is what defines a human.

[Justin_stacy]

. Is a car without an engine, still a car? Yes.


You wouldn’t call the components that make up a car, an actual car, unless they were put together.
(nor is the enigine 50% of a car)


By your logic a pile of nails and wood could be considered a house.......

[Lueda Alia]

i concur, it seems that abortion has become the convenient thing to do to get rid of an "inconvenience" or another life. it's immature, and downright scary that a lot of society thinks there is nothing wrong with taking an innocent babies life, (it's as if dead baby jokes aren't that far off anymore). But seriously, i think that those are the consequences. I have a question about that mother who died having that kid, my question is..who is to say that that mother is more important than that baby. They're both people, you can't prioritize, this person is worth more than this one cause of their age, bullshit. It's not up to us, and i think it's scary how much we take matters of life and death into our own hands. Pro-life.
If you think that having an abortion is immature, then you obviously need to re-think about what abortion is all about, what it is like, and why people choose it.

Saying that it's immature and a "quick fix" shows just how little you know about it.

[Lueda Alia]

it may not have been eloquent, but he's right.......
According to you. I don't think he's right at all.


I really don't want this to turn into another abortion debate. I'm tempted to close it and bring up an old thread. This is simply a neverending topic that's started here every other week/month by newbies who are too lazy to use the search feature.

[Andy]

Pro choice.

[Broken Parachute]

If you don't want the kid, use a condom or don't fuck at all. Simple as that.

[noodledancer]

but that's where you're wrong the term human is not relative, a human does not exist with out all the chromosomes, it's not human. i kind of understand what your trying to say, but i know to me, once those chromosomes have come together, you have a human, you have all the DNA makeup there. and that is what defines a human.

by this logic a child born with part or all of a chromosome missing isn't human.

[boldt_action]

by this logic a child born with part or all of a chromosome missing isn't human.

yes, i realized this after i posted it, perhaps i was a bit harsh in the statement, but you understand my point, for a fully functioning, said 'normal', healthy human you have all the chromosomes, i do realize there are diseases and syndromes where there are people with part chromosomes, in which they are still human, but there is another debate all together and something i think they are still researching.

[boldt_action]

If you think that having an abortion is immature, then you obviously need to re-think about what abortion is all about, what it is like, and why people choose it.

Saying that it's immature and a "quick fix" shows just how little you know about it.

i do think abortion is immature in some cases, i think it's a lot of people realizing that they're not ready for a baby and are scared of it, instead of buckling down and taking resposibility for their actions, they bail. if thats not immature, please educate me. i realize there are extenuating circumstances in some cases, but i know that too many people get an abortion just for the hell of it, without good cause and they rationalize it in their head

[boldt_action]

If you don't want the kid, use a condom or don't fuck at all. Simple as that.
agreed

[allelish]

I want an abortion for christmas.

[boldt_action]

I want an abortion for christmas.
fine, i wish a quick and painless death upon you

[americandreams]

I'm Pro-Choice, but I still think discretion should be used before an abortion.

For example... a teenage girl getting pregnant by accident and having no way to support herself or give the baby a good life... ok, fine. Very very worthy of abortion.

But then there was a woman who was an upper-class writer/lecturer living in Manhattan, who wasn't married and got pregnant with triplets. So she had 2 of them aborted, not because she couldn't take care of the kids, (she was rich) but purely because, as she said, she didn't want to spend her life at Costco or be forced to be a stay-at-home mom.

Those kind of people are stupid. I still am pro-choice, but I still don't think it's fine for fetuses to just be aborted for no reason at all. I think people should still use their brains first.




wow. that's the most fucking idiotic statement i've ever heard. in fact, it's so dumb, i'm laughing. get over yourself. you aren't pro-choice. pro-choice is about being NON-JUDGEMENTAL. obviously, you are an idiot and didn't get the memo. it's fine to not personally agree with abortion, but to judge someone on it and then say you are pro-choice. jesus christ. there are so many stupid fucking people like you in the world. first of all, it's not your body, second of all, you DON'T know the whole story whether you think you do or not. did you know the woman personally? did you talk to her? even so, it's none of your business. i really don't like the fact that their are people that do not believe in choice, but i'd rather there be people who believe in something strongly than sit and be hypocritical about it, and yes, i am calling you a hypocrite. find out what pro-choice, abortion, pro-life, etc is all about. don't just read some fucking article or listen to some story in which you have no clue what the women was feeling. asshole.

[brandnewtbs23]

pro-life

shoot me

[Lueda Alia]

fine, i wish a quick and painless death upon you
maybe I'm reading this wrong, but this post right here proves just how hypcrite some of you are. "I'm pro life because I don't want babies to die." and this is also exactly why debating with some of you is not worth it.

[brandnewtbs23]

wow. that's the most fucking idiotic statement i've ever heard. in fact, it's so dumb, i'm laughing. get over yourself. you aren't pro-choice. pro-choice is about being NON-JUDGEMENTAL. obviously, you are an idiot and didn't get the memo. it's fine to not personally agree with abortion, but to judge someone on it and then say you are pro-choice. jesus christ. there are so many stupid fucking people like you in the world. first of all, it's not your body, second of all, you DON'T know the whole story whether you think you do or not. did you know the woman personally? did you talk to her? even so, it's none of your business. i really don't like the fact that their are people that do not believe in choice, but i'd rather there be people who believe in something strongly than sit and be hypocritical about it, and yes, i am calling you a hypocrite. find out what pro-choice, abortion, pro-life, etc is all about. don't just read some fucking article or listen to some story in which you have no clue what the women was feeling. asshole.
he did say what she was thinking

she was thinking she didn't want to be a stay at home mom or work at costco

she was an ass and you didnt have to know her

you know she was rich and could support all of the children and listen

you my friend are the asshole

[brandnewtbs23]

oh and for refrence i'm pro life and i would never tell somone to get an abortion however if somone was to get one i would not look down on them

[Lueda Alia]

he did say what she was thinking

she was thinking she didn't want to be a stay at home mom or work at costco

she was an ass and you didnt have to know her

you know she was rich and could support all of the children and listen

you my friend are the asshole
ah right, because that is always the case. you're absolutely right.

[brandnewtbs23]

i was saying that in refrence to what american dreams said to dan hollister

that was just one instance

reread it ...seriously

[noodledancer]

i was saying that in refrence to what american dreams said to dan hollister

that was just one instance

reread it ...seriously

for your consideration:

1) what is your definition of rich? is there an income cutoff at which you should be obligated keep your babies no matter what?

2) we don't know anything about the circumstances surrounding the pregnancy. did she undergo in-vitro fertilization & more embryos implanted than expected? was the father going to remain in the picture? does she have the resources/social support to handle caring for 3 infants all at once? how old was she? where was she career-wise & what were her goals for the future? was there some small risk to her health that wasn't mentioned?

3) caring for a child requires more than just financial support & is a daunting. it would be absolutely exhausting to have to do that times three all at once. the richest person in the world could still not be able to give the emotional support & attention that a child needs in order to thrive.

4) what someone says their reasons are could be different from their actual reasons.

5) who/what is the source of this information? this entire scenario could've been fabricated.

[Carlo Marx]

hey, how about this:

if you're a single male with no kids, then shut the fuck up.

if you get your girlfriend pregnant, then come in here and talk about your stance on abortion. until then, keep your mouth shut. it isn't your call to make.

[lightcollapse]

pro-life. convenience is not a reason to kill.
you can't kill what isn't alive, fuckining smartboy.

[lightcollapse]

and i don't believe this thread!abortion is taking away a PART OF A WOMAN. its not taking away a life, because something fetus in a woman is not alive. its just there, it has no emotion, it can't think. it can't think, its not a true life.its not murder. if you wouldn't have an abortion, keep it to yourself. we'll see how you feel when your/yourboyfriend's condom breaks, and they get pregnant when their fourteen. having the kid will ruin their lives and bring into the world a kid with ...well, kids for parents, the two parents never being able to leave each other no matter what happens, go to the colleges they want to or live the life they wanted to. all because they wanted to avoid a simple operation.and you can't say, "well i'm not for it if its a single rich white woman," because theres not going to be a law that says "abortions are legal, except for single rich white women because we don't like those situations."and look at the story i posted earlier and say you're against abortions. "pro-life" or whatever you call it.

[Justin_stacy]

According to you. I don't think he's right at all.
.

.........and personally i didn't think it was exactly a stupid post.

[lightcollapse]

.........and personally i didn't think it was exactly a stupid post.
okay true punk fan.

[Justin_stacy]

okay true punk fan.

point?

[lightcollapse]

point?
your ideas aren't exactly punk, kid.

[lackofcolour 13]

I always wondered if people thought that male masturbation was considered abortion. Technically it is 50% of what is needed to create a human, and it is a living organism. The same can be said for a woman when she is fertile and "wastes" her eggs. It is 50% of what is needed to create a human, and it is living. What makes this any different than if it had developed into a 2 week old organism known as a "human"? Is the batter used to make brownies any different than the cooked brownies?

yeah. but thats kind of weak. life begins at conception. And thats basically why I think so many people do find Masturbation kind of wrong, not for that direct reason, but sexual stimulation(someone offer a better word if they can think of one for what I am trying to say) is for a means of procreation.

[Justin_stacy]

your ideas aren't exactly punk, kid.
Child, punk is nothing more then a style of music. It’s a shame that you feel you can't think for yourself and listen to “punk” music.

(Also that label is a default)......

[lightcollapse]

yeah. but thats kind of weak. life begins at conception. And thats basically why I think so many people do find Masturbation kind of wrong, not for that direct reason, but sexual stimulation(someone offer a better word if they can think of one for what I am trying to say) is for a means of procreation.
yeah, reaching what is often described as "the best feeling possible" with another person is definitely wrong unless you get have a kid and change your life. people who do that are disgusting.i'd also like to ban having fun because its not productive.

[Lueda Alia]

yeah. but thats kind of weak. life begins at conception. And thats basically why I think so many people do find Masturbation kind of wrong, not for that direct reason, but sexual stimulation(someone offer a better word if they can think of one for what I am trying to say) is for a means of procreation.
you believe that life begins at conception. many others don't.

[lightcollapse]

you believe that life begins at conception. many others don't.

i don't get the people who believe that life begins at conception. its not life.

[baysiderocks]

If you dont agree with abortion, dont get one

[lightcollapse]

If you dont agree with abortion, dont get one

if you don't agree with abortion, off yourself.

[Carlo Marx]

If you dont agree with abortion, dont get one

and here, someone finally proves that brevity is the sould of wit.

seriously, if you dont like abortion, dont get one. just dont force your views on other people. simple as that.

[Lueda Alia]

and here, someone finally proves that brevity is the sould of wit.

seriously, if you dont like abortion, dont get one. just dont force your views on other people. simple as that.
exactly.

I personally could never have one, and I wouldn't ever (unless my life's at risk). but I do want others to have the choice to choose.

[FstFtsVsFences]

i don't get the people who believe that life begins at conception. its not life.
How isn't it life?

[Broken Parachute]

So, if you agree with abortion..would you support your own mother if she wanted one? What if you were aborted? You wouldn't be here right now if your mom had chose that. And how isn't it life? It's growing, isn't it? Don't living things grow?

I don't put myself into these conversations normally because I hate debating, I don't care if people agree with my views or not..we all have views, it's our right. All I'm saying is, if your a teenager..doesn't take much to buy a fucking condom.

[dai the flu]

abortion is taking away a PART OF A WOMAN. its not taking away a life, because something fetus in a woman is not alive. its just there, it has no emotion, it can't think. it can't think, its not a true life.its not murder.

that could possibly be the single most uneducated statement i have ever read on this message board.

[Broken Parachute]

So in 9 months, something that is "part of the woman" is not going to grow up to think and feel emotions? So really if you kill it while it's in it's first month, since it can't think it's not murder..even though within a few more months it will be able to think and feel?

[dai the flu]

if unborn babies are not alive, then how come they can learn? how do they recognize voices? music?
this argument is absolutely the most ignorant load of horse-shit i have ever heard and i just realized i dont want to ever come back to this website. you people are fucking wastes of life and im ashamed of young people today, my generation, you bunch of heartless self-centered bastards.

[Lueda Alia]

How isn't it life?
How is it life? Does it have a heartbeat? Can it feel emotions?

Science has not proved it to be a life so far. So it's really about belief, which is why people should be allowed to make their own choices.

[Lueda Alia]

if unborn babies are not alive, then how come they can learn? how do they recognize voices? music?
this argument is absolutely the most ignorant load of horse-shit i have ever heard and i just realized i dont want to ever come back to this website. you people are fucking wastes of life and im ashamed of young people today, my generation, you bunch of heartless self-centered bastards.
See ya.

[Rebs]

if unborn babies are not alive, then how come they can learn? how do they recognize voices? music?
this argument is absolutely the most ignorant load of horse-shit i have ever heard and i just realized i dont want to ever come back to this website. you people are fucking wastes of life and im ashamed of young people today, my generation, you bunch of heartless self-centered bastards.
Except that abortions are within the first trimester, and if you have ever taken advanced Biology you learn that the embryo is about the size of a grape in the first month, by the second month its about a kidney bean, and then in the third month, its about a lemon size. The skin is still completely transparent and doesn't even look like a human yet.
I don't know that any of us are arguing saying that they absolutely agree with abortion. I personally could not ever get one, my father tried to get my mom to have an abortion when she was pregnant with me, so it takes a bit of a personal stance with me, but I support having the right to choose.

[getupkid53]

if you don't agree with abortion, off yourself.

That was probably the most closed minded, ignorant statements ever made.... ever.. I'm debating whether the fact that you have just began you're saunter into the world of pre-pubescent teenagers is an excuse for such a morbid comment. People disagree with you, as you do with them. If you want to talk about a 'grown up' subject. Be a grown up about it. You can state your case with out making fun of people, degrading their beliefs, or threatening them.

The fact that you can't state your point without doing any of the above three, shows that you are not validated to make an argument about abortion. Dare I say, you probably are not able to make an upstanding case for anything you believe, and our a product of the 'new punk' generation that is bombarded with pompus left wing propaghanda that is rarely backed by rational thought. I'm not a conservative as far as social injustices and fiscal policy is concerned, so spare me.

I believe a baby is alive in the womb. Hence me being pro-life. If people don't believe it is a human, then why should they not believe in aborting it. I can't convince them otherwise. Me coming in here and calling them ignorant for that belief would be stupid. I still heavily disagree that abortion has just become another form of contraceptive, I find it degrading, but that's just my opinion.

[Cal Smith]

and i don't believe this thread!abortion is taking away a PART OF A WOMAN. its not taking away a life, because something fetus in a woman is not alive. its just there, it has no emotion, it can't think. it can't think, its not a true life.its not murder.

All I see is a bunch of crap with no evidence to back a thing you said up.

if you wouldn't have an abortion, keep it to yourself. we'll see how you feel when your/yourboyfriend's condom breaks, and they get pregnant when their fourteen. having the kid will ruin their lives and bring into the world a kid with ...well, kids for parents, the two parents never being able to leave each other no matter what happens, go to the colleges they want to or live the life they wanted to

Your idea that every teenager parent's lives will be ruined and in turn their childs life will be ruined is a load of shit, and about the worst justification for abortion their is.

[Cal Smith]

I've got to ask because no one has ever answered this question for me. If you're one of the ones who are pro-choice, but you yourself would never get an abortion cause you think it's wrong............why do you think it's wrong?

[getupkid53]

How is it life? Does it have a heartbeat? Can it feel emotions?

Science has not proved it to be a life so far. So it's really about belief, which is why people should be allowed to make their own choices.

I respect people's opinions, but you're statement is a bold LIE.
- Science has proven that the fetus' heartbeat begins between late 2nd and early 4th week.
- Brainwaves have been recorded as early as 40 days, not even six weeks.

Both of these situations happen before most women even realize they are pregnant. So, according to your statement, by the time a woman decides to have an abortion, scientifically proven, a baby has a heartbeat and can feel. Please argue this.

My belief is that science proved you wrong.

[Cal Smith]

Also for all those who justify abortions based on "assumption" of how poorly the childs life will be if born and how terrible the parents life will be if that child is born I have one example that I hope would make you think and reconsider.

They had a speaker up at my job talking about abortion. She as an unborn child was suppose to have been aborted by the mother because it was determined she was going to be born mentaly and physically retarted (so just like many of you the mother determined the childs life would have been better had she not had the chance to live it). For some reason the abortion was not successful and she was born mentaly and physically retarted. Guess what...............her life was worth living. She has a husband and two kids of her own, and now speaks against abortion.

It's not fair for you and I to determine the future of someone that you havent even given a chance too.

[Rebs]

I've got to ask because no one has ever answered this question for me. If you're one of the ones who are pro-choice, but you yourself would never get an abortion cause you think it's wrong............why do you think it's wrong?
I don't think that I could handle it emotionally, and I personally would put a baby up for adoption first, but I think that we should have the right to make that decision

[Cal Smith]

I don't think that I could handle it emotionally, and I personally would put a baby up for adoption first, but I think that we should have the right to make that decision

But why you personally? Why would it affect you so much emotionally? You obviously have some sort of moral objection for yourself and I'm curious as to what moral objection that is

[Rebs]

But why you personally? Why would it affect you so much emotionally? You obviously have some sort of moral objection for yourself and I'm curious as to what moral objection that is
Well, when my mom was pregnant with me, she was just married, only 20 and my dad was cheating on her. My father drove her to the abortion clinic and forced her into the building, but she wouldn't sign the papers. So my mom's decision to not get it obviously helped me a bit personally. But I still believe in the right to choose.

[The Revisionist]

I don't really give a fuck if somebody gets an abortion or not, but my general feeling on the situation is that if you feel you are responsible enough to have sex, then you should be responsible enough to deal with the consequences - pregnancy/STD/ruining emotional attachment in the relationship/etc.

[Cal Smith]

Well, when my mom was pregnant with me, she was just married, only 20 and my dad was cheating on her. My father drove her to the abortion clinic and forced her into the building, but she wouldn't sign the papers. So my mom's decision to not get it obviously helped me a bit personally. But I still believe in the right to choose.

I'm talking about why do you see an abortion as being wrong in general?

[Rebs]

I'm talking about why do you see an abortion as being wrong in general?
hmm I just think that if you have unprotected sex and think that you are ready for sex, that you should live with the consequences, but many people are not mature enough to deal with it.

[Cal Smith]

hmm I just think that if you have unprotected sex and think that you are ready for sex, that you should live with the consequences, but many people are not mature enough to deal with it.

so you have no moral objection yourself to ending the life of the fetus (whether you think it's human or not)?

[Rebs]

so you have no moral objection yourself to ending the life of the fetus (whether you think it's human or not)?
No

[boldt_action]

maybe I'm reading this wrong, but this post right here proves just how hypcrite some of you are. "I'm pro life because I don't want babies to die." and this is also exactly why debating with some of you is not worth it.

that was a joke, loosen up, he made one, so i made a joke, deal with it
hey, how about this:

if you're a single male with no kids, then shut the fuck up.

if you get your girlfriend pregnant, then come in here and talk about your stance on abortion. until then, keep your mouth shut. it isn't your call to make.
how about this? you keep your ignorant mouth shut just because we are not in that situation doesn't mean our opinions don't matter, thanks
your ideas aren't exactly punk, kid. you are an idiot, because you have no argument you resort to personal attacks, that disgusting, get out of here

as for abortion, its true, no matter what you say, from conception there is life, all the material is there for a human life and it begins to take shape, saying that it isn't alive is merely a way that people who support abortion distance themselves from the personal aspect of it. i can't believe that someone can rationalize like this, saying that a life isn't worth anything, of all the self-centered, self-righteous pig-headed things to think. to me it only displays the belief that people have nowadays that the whole world revolves around them, who's to say your life is more important that a baby that gets aborted today....no one...so maybe it's one of us that should die today instead

[allelish]

Hmm. I think if someone has an abortion because it is simply more convenient to not have a kid, then that is wrong.

If someone was raped and became pregnant, i guess that is a different matter.

[boldt_action]

Hmm. I think if someone has an abortion because it is simply more convenient to not have a kid, then that is wrong.

If someone was raped and became pregnant, i guess that is a different matter.
the raping thing is the only thing that i have a hard time with, it keeps me from being 100% pro-life because i know that would be the hardest thing in the world, and a hard decision. but i think that too many abortions are not for this reason. thats my issue.

[allelish]

the raping thing is the only thing that i have a hard time with, it keeps me from being 100% pro-life because i know that would be the hardest thing in the world, and a hard decision. but i think that too many abortions are not for this reason. thats my issue.
yeah, same here.

[lackofcolour 13]

My one last word is in any pregnancy scenario, be it rape or unplanned pregnancy, if you do not want the child, but do give it up to adoption, I do not know any half decent woman that, in retrospect, would think "I wish I would have had an abortion." Fucking choose life, its an extreme judge of character.

And as far as it causing death to the mother, I think that giving life to a child, even if it means an end to yours, is hugely admirable on an unbelievably scale. I cannot imagine terminating a pregnancy for a woman's well being not haunting her for the rest of her life.

[Broken Parachute]

I still don't get why people don't use adoption. For kids, the reason is so their parents won't find out. I think if your under 18, and you get an abortion, your parents should know about it.

[dai the flu]

an ex-girlfriend of mine was raped on a vacation trip to the bahamas, she got pregnant, went ahead and had the baby, and she's the absolute most adorable baby girl you can ever imagine.
pro-life, no matter what the circumstances are.

[americandreams]

OH MY FUCKING GOD. people on here are so stupid. and i think it's funny how people are pro-life yet listen to bands that are fully pro-choice and write songs/take role in pro-choice events, readings, etc. dumb....but i'd expect it. it's sad to see how the state of punk and underground culture is being run by a bunch of boring, misogynistic, racist, and homophobic people. it's even more sad, that people are so naive and clueless.

i'll end this with an important and still revelvant song, Jigsaw Youth...

"I can sell my body if I wanna!
GOD KNOWS YOU'VE ALREADY SOLD YR MIND!
I may sell my body for money sometimes...
YOU CAN'T STOP THE FIRE, THAT BURNS, INSIDE OF ME!
you think that i don't know
i'm here to tell you i do...
you think that i don't know...
I KNOW THE TRUTH ABOUT YOU YAH!

jigsaw, jigsaw youth!
we go with the kids
yeah yeah...
jigsaw, jigsaw youth!

we know there's not one way, one light...one stupid truth!
won't fit yr defintions
won't meet yr demands
not into win/lose reality
won't fit into yr plans!"


stop living your lives in a christian-filled world. start thinking for yourself because in the end, you've got two choices: become a robot and march in the same army as everyone else is doing or start a revolution and set this world on fire.

[getupkid53]

AmericanDreams is a moron, see above.

[Carlo Marx]

how about this? you keep your ignorant mouth shut just because we are not in that situation doesn't mean our opinions don't matter, thanks
you are an idiot, because you have no argument you resort to personal attacks, that disgusting, get out of here

are you talking out fo your ass? when did you deal with abortion away? because i must have missed that post where you showd us your ph d.

fact is that you're the only idiot here, it's not your call to make. so come back in here when you get your girlfriend pregnant and actually have a clue as to what you're talking about.

[boldt_action]

are you talking out fo your ass? when did you deal with abortion away? because i must have missed that post where you showd us your ph d.

fact is that you're the only idiot here, it's not your call to make. so come back in here when you get your girlfriend pregnant and actually have a clue as to what you're talking about.
you are also a moron, because it has nothing to do with who i know or what i've been through, taking a life is taking a life...no matter who does it, says it, or has been through it. so maybe you should stop talking out of your ass, cause your ignorance is making my head hurt. i have an opinion and you telling me that it doesn't matter is bullshit, shut the hell up
AmericanDreams is a moron, see above. i agree

[Cal Smith]

OH MY FUCKING GOD. people on here are so stupid. and i think it's funny how people are pro-life yet listen to bands that are fully pro-choice and write songs/take role in pro-choice events, readings, etc. dumb....but i'd expect it. it's sad to see how the state of punk and underground culture is being run by a bunch of boring, misogynistic, racist, and homophobic people. it's even more sad, that people are so naive and clueless.

i'll end this with an important and still revelvant song, Jigsaw Youth...

"I can sell my body if I wanna!
GOD KNOWS YOU'VE ALREADY SOLD YR MIND!
I may sell my body for money sometimes...
YOU CAN'T STOP THE FIRE, THAT BURNS, INSIDE OF ME!
you think that i don't know
i'm here to tell you i do...
you think that i don't know...
I KNOW THE TRUTH ABOUT YOU YAH!

jigsaw, jigsaw youth!
we go with the kids
yeah yeah...
jigsaw, jigsaw youth!

we know there's not one way, one light...one stupid truth!
won't fit yr defintions
won't meet yr demands
not into win/lose reality
won't fit into yr plans!"


stop living your lives in a christian-filled world. start thinking for yourself because in the end, you've got two choices: become a robot and march in the same army as everyone else is doing or start a revolution and set this world on fire.

Do you have a degree in Irony?

[Lueda Alia]

you are also a moron, because it has nothing to do with who i know or what i've been through, taking a life is taking a life...no matter who does it, says it, or has been through it. so maybe you should stop talking out of your ass, cause your ignorance is making my head hurt. i have an opinion and you telling me that it doesn't matter is bullshit, shut the hell up
i agree
When scientists say that "life begins at conception," then you can make that statement for sure. as for now, it's simply an opinion/belief you have, so don't try to pass it as a fact.

and I thought you were leaving? I guess you've not called enough people "moron" yet.

[Cal Smith]

Here's another thing I wanted to say. People should air on the side of caution when dealing with moral conflicts. For example, as the death penalty goes I am currently opposed to it. Why? For the simple fact that I have a moral dilemma with it. I simply don't know if the death penalty is right or wrong from a moral standpoint and that being the case I'd like to stay on the safe side and be against it.

Same should hold true for abortion. I'd rather live my life with the comfort of knowing for a fact I wasnt on the wrong side of the issue.

[boldt_action]

When scientists say that "life begins at conception," then you can make that statement for sure. as for now, it's simply an opinion/belief you have, so don't try to pass it as a fact.

and I thought you were leaving? I guess you've not called enough people "moron" yet.
no i never said i was leaving, i just find some people's words to be stupid, if people have a good point and a well thought-out opinion then fine, i have my beliefs you have yours, but, some people come up with the stupidest ideas, stuff that doesn't even make sense, i understand where you are coming from in you don't buy the pro-life thing, but in my mind (only educated in biology to the 12th grade) when conception occurs, there is all the components for a human life that begins to take form. And i don't know how one can dispute that.

p.s. i wasn't the first one to be rude, people start climbing up my ass, i'll do it to them

[Carlo Marx]

you are also a moron, because it has nothing to do with who i know or what i've been through, taking a life is taking a life...no matter who does it, says it, or has been through it. so maybe you should stop talking out of your ass, cause your ignorance is making my head hurt. i have an opinion and you telling me that it doesn't matter is bullshit, shut the hell up
i agree

and there you go, proving yourself an idiot.

[boldt_action]

and there you go, proving yourself an idiot.
good point :shake:

[Lueda Alia]

no i never said i was leaving, i just find some people's words to be stupid, if people have a good point and a well thought-out opinion then fine, i have my beliefs you have yours, but, some people come up with the stupidest ideas, stuff that doesn't even make sense, i understand where you are coming from in you don't buy the pro-life thing, but in my mind (only educated in biology to the 12th grade) when conception occurs, there is all the components for a human life that begins to take form. And i don't know how one can dispute that.

p.s. i wasn't the first one to be rude, people start climbing up my ass, i'll do it to them
I don't remember reading any well thought-out post from you either. you've been trying to prove your points by relying on personal attacks, too. as far as I can see anyway.

and if someone attacks you, then be the bigger person and let it go.

[boldt_action]

I don't remember reading any well thought-out post from you either. you've been trying to prove your points by relying on personal attacks, too. as far as I can see anyway.

and if someone attacks you, then be the bigger person and let it go. i'm no doctor, but some people weren't even thinking before posting, and i haven't attacked anyone personally, unless you count "moron, idiot" but that was only because of their comments not because i hated their opinion.

[boldt_action]

alright, i'm cooled off, i just got offended and kinda fired up when that guy told me that i didn't have an opinion that mattered because i don't have a girlfriend thats preggers..or has been. i found that to be an unfair statement

[brandnewtbs23]

my cousin is 18 and he got his girlfriend pregnant, they are both still in high school and the both only have part time jobs, they are having the baby anyways, my aunt had one kid and tried for 9 years to have another and couldn't when there is a 17 year old girl out there who is having an abortion because it's too hard, like somone said earlier, choosing life says alot for character

[Carlo Marx]

alright, i'm cooled off, i just got offended and kinda fired up when that guy told me that i didn't have an opinion that mattered because i don't have a girlfriend thats preggers..or has been. i found that to be an unfair statement

listen, i'm not saying it's only your opinion that doesn't matter. it's everyone here, myself included. unless someone has ben in a situation where they had to choose between an abortion or keeping a kid, they reall y don't have any idea how they'd react.

this thread on a site full of teenagers is really a moot point because none of us has enough life experience to come to a sound conclusion.

do you get where i'm coming from?

[boldt_action]

listen, i'm not saying it's only your opinion that doesn't matter. it's everyone here, myself included. unless someone has ben in a situation where they had to choose between an abortion or keeping a kid, they reall y don't have any idea how they'd react.

this thread on a site full of teenagers is really a moot point because none of us has enough life experience to come to a sound conclusion.

do you get where i'm coming from?
no, for sure, i get what your saying. i couldn't imagine being in that situation and how hard it would be. But, saying this, all personal notes aside, i believe it to be wrong because of the stated reasons in above posts. have we reached an understanding?

[Carlo Marx]

no, for sure, i get what your saying. i couldn't imagine being in that situation and how hard it would be. But, saying this, all personal notes aside, i believe it to be wrong because of the stated reasons in above posts. have we reached an understanding?

yes sir i believe we have.

[boldt_action]

yes sir i believe we have.
excellent, i knew we could work through that

[brandnewtbs23]

i must say though my views are a bit biased because i've gone to catholic schools all of my life and really only heard one side of the arguement, however i still think it's wrong and killing another human, my priest at the church i attend said that should be the main issuve when you are voting and basicall said john kerry was going to hell for being for it, i do think is is an importan issue though but there are more important ones such as the war on iraq, and well i dont like douchbags as our president, (i'm talking about Bush)

oh and i really don't want to get into a political arguement with anyone, i'm really not in the mood

[boldt_action]

i must say though my views are a bit biased because i've gone to catholic schools all of my life and really only heard one side of the arguement, however i still think it's wrong and killing another human, my priest at the church i attend said that should be the main issuve when you are voting and basicall said john kerry was going to hell for being for it, i do think is is an importan issue though but there are more important ones such as the war on iraq, and well i dont like douchbags as our president, (i'm talking about Bush)

oh and i really don't want to get into a political arguement with anyone, i'm really not in the mood
what kind of mood are you in?

[brandnewtbs23]

what kind of mood are you in?
a i-love-nightmare-of-you-and-probably-should-go-to-bed-but-i'm-not-tired kind of mood

[Cal Smith]

listen, i'm not saying it's only your opinion that doesn't matter. it's everyone here, myself included. unless someone has ben in a situation where they had to choose between an abortion or keeping a kid, they reall y don't have any idea how they'd react.

this thread on a site full of teenagers is really a moot point because none of us has enough life experience to come to a sound conclusion.

do you get where i'm coming from?

Man walks in on his wife of 25 years in bed with another man. Takes a gun kills him then turns it on her...........do you find him guilty?

[boldt_action]

Man walks in on his wife of 25 years in bed with another man. Takes a gun kills him then turns it on her...........do you find him guilty?
of course??

[Carlo Marx]

Man walks in on his wife of 25 years in bed with another man. Takes a gun kills him then turns it on her...........do you find him guilty?

the matter of taking the life of something that can be debated as living or not is completely different from murdering two people in cold blood.

[boldt_action]

oh they are living cells, theres no doubt about that, it's whether you classify it as a life or "human"

[Carlo Marx]

oh they are living cells, theres no doubt about that, it's whether you classify it as a life or "human"

i'm more concerned with where cal smith was attempting to go with that question.

[boldt_action]

i'm more concerned with where cal smith was attempting to go with that question.
yes, but he doesnt seem to be here at the moment

[Cal Smith]

i'm more concerned with where cal smith was attempting to go with that question.

I'm not trying to relate it to abortion at all. I'm trying to relate it to the ridiculous "abortion roadblock" you've attempted to set up. You're argument is that until you're in the situation your opinion doesnt matter, so I'd like to see this same philosophy applied to other morally difficult situations.

So do you think you have a right to judge this man that has killed two people even though you've never been in the same situation.

If you find fault with his actions you're going against what you've been arguing this whole time, but I dont see how you couldnt.

[boldt_action]

I'm not trying to relate it to abortion at all. I'm trying to relate it to the ridiculous "abortion roadblock" you've attempted to set up. You're argument is that until you're in the situation your opinion doesnt matter, so I'd like to see this same philosophy applied to other morally difficult situations.

So do you think you have a right to judge this man that has killed two people even though you've never been in the same situation.

If you find fault with his actions you're going against what you've been arguing this whole time, but I dont see how you couldnt.
i agree

[Carlo Marx]

I'm not trying to relate it to abortion at all. I'm trying to relate it to the ridiculous "abortion roadblock" you've attempted to set up. You're argument is that until you're in the situation your opinion doesnt matter, so I'd like to see this same philosophy applied to other morally difficult situations.

So do you think you have a right to judge this man that has killed two people even though you've never been in the same situation.

If you find fault with his actions you're going against what you've been arguing this whole time, but I dont see how you couldnt.

it's not the same at all.

the topic of abortion is too up in the air to be related to something as black and white as a double homicide.

[Cal Smith]

it's not the same at all.

the topic of abortion is too up in the air to be related to something as black and white as a double homicide.

Who are you to say it's obviously black and whtie until you've been in his scenario?

*you didnt answer the question either*

[Carlo Marx]

That didnt answer the question. I'm not asking you to compare abortion to this.

I'm asking you to apply your own argument in another morally difficult case. Do you find him guilty or stick with your argument that you until you're in the same situation you don't know how'd you react, so your opinion doesn't really matter.

ok, which one am i in the situation? the murderous husband, the guy nailing the wife, or the cheating whore?

[Cal Smith]

ok, which one am i in the situation? the murderous husband, the guy nailing the wife, or the cheating whore?

Who are you to say it's obviously black and whtie until you've been in his scenario?

I'm just asking if you think the man pulling the trigger was wrong?

[Carlo Marx]

Who are you to say it's obviously black and whtie until you've been in his scenario?

*you didnt answer the question either*

*you just completely changed your post*

[Cal Smith]

*you just completely changed your post*

I know..............

So what do you think? You think he's wrong or do you not think it's your place to decide?

[Carlo Marx]

Who are you to say it's obviously black and whtie until you've been in his scenario?

I'm just asking if you think the man pulling the trigger was wrong?

well, yes. he was wrong. here's how i feel it differs from abortion:

he killed two people who had lived for what had to be close to 40 years, since they were married for 25. he took the lives of two people who had grown and aged and had families.

you didn't give me any background information on the three parties involved, so i dont know if they were morally good or bad people.

when someone has an abortion, a fetus is removed. it hasn't grown, developed, or function in society. it has no history of moral experiences or actions, so it can't be considered a person. it can't make decisions on its own. hell, it couldn't survive on it's own either. abortion isn't taking a life because the fetus hasn't had a life to begin with.

[Carlo Marx]

I know..............

So what do you think? You think he's wrong or do you not think it's your place to decide?

seeing as how i'm not judge or jury on this case, it isn't my place to decide at all.

[Cal Smith]

well, yes. he was wrong. here's how i feel it differs from abortion:

he killed two people who had lived for what had to be close to 40 years, since they were married for 25. he took the lives of two people who had grown and aged and had families.

you didn't give me any background information on the three parties involved, so i dont know if they were morally good or bad people.

when someone has an abortion, a fetus is removed. it hasn't grown, developed, or function in society. it has no history of moral experiences or actions, so it can't be considered a person. it can't make decisions on its own. hell, it couldn't survive on it's own either. abortion isn't taking a life because the fetus hasn't had a life to begin with.

lol..........the example has nothing to do wiht abortion. I didnt even mention abortion. The example has to do with this strange assertion you made that until your in a woman's shoes your opinion doesnt matter. You can apply that logic to just about anything to justify "questionable" actions.

I don't understand how you can fault this man for what he did until you've been in the same situation. I'm guessing it's pretty rough walking on your wife of 25 years with another man and you or I would have never experience it. So who are we to say.........? (sarcasm to the nth)

[Cal Smith]

seeing as how i'm not judge or jury on this case, it isn't my place to decide at all.

hmmmm...................."well, yes. he was wrong."

[Carlo Marx]

lol..........the example has nothing to do wiht abortion. I didnt even mention abortion. The example has to do with this strange assertion you made that until your in a woman's shoes your opinion doesnt matter. You can apply that logic to just about anything to justify "questionable" actions.

I don't understand how you can fault this man for what he did until you've been in the same situation. I'm guessing it's pretty rough walking on your wife of 25 years with another man and you or I would have never experience it. So who are we to say.........? (sarcasm to the nth)

all sarcasm aside, that's the point im trying to make. do you think this guy came home thinking to himself "hypothetically speaking, if i were to walk in on my wife cheating today, i'd be super pissed. Pissed enough to kill."

i really don't think that ever crossed his mind once. maybe he got suspicious of his wife cheating on him, but i doubt he ever said "imma waste this bitch if she is cheating on me." he wouldn't know how to handle the situation.

[americandreams]

ah, this is pointless. i should have not joined this site. it's run by 13 year olds. i can tell. not that there is anything wrong with that...i was 13 too. but i grew up a bit. not to say i still don't have a lot to learn...i am 18 after all. but yah. this is pointless. it's been fun kids. sorry to spoil your time with taking back sunday or whatever.

ugh, this all makes me sad. no, it amuses me. VIVA LA QUEERVOLUTION!

[The Revisionist]

I still don't get why people don't use adoption. For kids, the reason is so their parents won't find out. I think if your under 18, and you get an abortion, your parents should know about it.Well I think they would probably know about it because YOUR STOMACH WILL BE FUCKING HUGE.

[Cal Smith]

ah, this is pointless. i should have not joined this site. it's run by 13 year olds. i can tell. not that there is anything wrong with that...i was 13 too. but i grew up a bit. not to say i still don't have a lot to learn...i am 18 after all. but yah. this is pointless. it's been fun kids. sorry to spoil your time with taking back sunday or whatever.

ugh, this all makes me sad. no, it amuses me. VIVA LA QUEERVOLUTION!

funny..........at 18 i would consider you a kid as well

[boldt_action]

ah, this is pointless. i should have not joined this site. it's run by 13 year olds. i can tell. not that there is anything wrong with that...i was 13 too. but i grew up a bit. not to say i still don't have a lot to learn...i am 18 after all. but yah. this is pointless. it's been fun kids. sorry to spoil your time with taking back sunday or whatever.

ugh, this all makes me sad. no, it amuses me. VIVA LA QUEERVOLUTION!

hey, you there, don't make ignorant remarks about age thinking that yours means so much more because you have 18 years of experience, and your opinion means so much more than the rest. if you use that argument, your opinion means nothing to me, just because i'm older than you, have some respect man. if you actually look at the ages of the people in here you'd know that they're not 13. seriously give your head a shake, if you don't have something intelligent to say, don't post, and..i hope you never get this since you decided to leave and all.

[boldt_action]

funny..........at 18 i would consider you a kid as well
so would i, that guy is super ignorant and since he doesn't have an argument he tells us that he's above all of us, don't pay any attention to him

[Rebs]

OH MY FUCKING GOD. people on here are so stupid. and i think it's funny how people are pro-life yet listen to bands that are fully pro-choice and write songs/take role in pro-choice events, readings, etc. dumb....but i'd expect it. it's sad to see how the state of punk and underground culture is being run by a bunch of boring, misogynistic, racist, and homophobic people. it's even more sad, that people are so naive and clueless.

stop living your lives in a christian-filled world. start thinking for yourself because in the end, you've got two choices: become a robot and march in the same army as everyone else is doing or start a revolution and set this world on fire.

Okay so wow. I didn't know that just because I listen to certain bands I had to think like them and have the same views as them, wow I guess we're really stupid, we can't even form opinions for ourselves. The majority of our country is naive and clueless, especially the younger generations. We live in a country where you can choose to involve yourself politically, or to ignore it all together.

Some people devote themselves to their faith, (I myself am agnostic or atheist, I go back and forth on the issue) and Christian ideals are very important to them. In this country we are free to believe what we want to, in religion and on our different political stances. So if they want to follow the Bible and form their own opinions based on it, they have every right to, that doesn't make them any less of a person than you.

You are trying to educate us all on being open minded and thinking for ourselves, yet you aren't listening to what anyone has to say.

It's a bit ironic if you ask me.

[getupkid53]

American dreams listens solely to the Rock against Bush comps and reads Michael Moore commentaries. Thus his enormously skewed view and unfortunately popular opinion (among similar duechebags) these days. I'm not against pro-choice, but I'm wholeheartedly against assclown(ism) which our young friend here has so proudly displayed.
Displaying rational thought patterns and the ability to reason are what seperates us from American Dreams.. ehem... i mean primates...(sorry, slip o' the tongue).

Anywho, your subsequent elitism has led to your downfall and I pray daily that you do not reproduce.

Also, your inability to conjur up coherent sentences with proper grammar makes it tough to distinguish you from other 13 year olds as does your ability to mash two words together that really don't make sense (Queervolution). It's alright. I have a feeling Hot Topic has a shirt that expels the amount of angst and frustration you have provided us with in this thread.

[boldt_action]

American dreams listens solely to the Rock against Bush comps and reads Michael Moore commentaries. Thus his enormously skewed view and unfortunately popular opinion (among similar duechebags) these days. I'm not against pro-choice, but I'm wholeheartedly against assclown(ism) which our young friend here has so proudly displayed.
Displaying rational thought patterns and the ability to reason are what seperates us from American Dreams.. ehem... i mean primates...(sorry, slip o' the tongue).

Anywho, your subsequent elitism has led to your downfall and I pray daily that you do not reproduce.

Also, your inability to conjur up coherent sentences with proper grammar makes it tough to distinguish you from other 13 year olds as does your ability to mash two words together that really don't make sense (Queervolution). It's alright. I have a feeling Hot Topic has a shirt that expels the amount of angst and frustration you have provided us with in this thread.
perect...just perfect

[Kid Kilowatt]

Everything in nature has a control. This is ours.

[Jaded2382]

Ok first off, I'm new here.. so hi everyone... secondly..

I am pro-choice and pro-life.. I do believe that if you are raped or its from incest, abortion ok..but only under those circumstances. I also think that abortion would be wrong if some 15 year old girl who had sex because it was the cool thing to do, gets pregnant and aborts the baby because shes just too young. She, first off, should take responsiblity in her actions. If you are old enough to have sex, you are old enough to carry the child you just made. Now there are many many MANY adults out there who can not have children and would adopt a child...why not just put the baby up for adoption and make someone elses dreams come true. I don't think that the government should step in however and tell you what you have to do. Its your life and whatnot and I do believe we should have the ability to make our own decisions without the gov. stepping in.

[boldt_action]

Ok first off, I'm new here.. so hi everyone... secondly..

I am pro-choice and pro-life.. I do believe that if you are raped or its from incest, abortion ok..but only under those circumstances. I also think that abortion would be wrong if some 15 year old girl who had sex because it was the cool thing to do, gets pregnant and aborts the baby because shes just too young. She, first off, should take responsiblity in her actions. If you are old enough to have sex, you are old enough to carry the child you just made. Now there are many many MANY adults out there who can not have children and would adopt a child...why not just put the baby up for adoption and make someone elses dreams come true. I don't think that the government should step in however and tell you what you have to do. Its your life and whatnot and I do believe we should have the ability to make our own decisions without the gov. stepping in.
welcome! and thank you, i agree with your post almost fully

[Rebs]

Ok first off, I'm new here.. so hi everyone... secondly..

I am pro-choice and pro-life.. I do believe that if you are raped or its from incest, abortion ok..but only under those circumstances. I also think that abortion would be wrong if some 15 year old girl who had sex because it was the cool thing to do, gets pregnant and aborts the baby because shes just too young. She, first off, should take responsiblity in her actions. If you are old enough to have sex, you are old enough to carry the child you just made. Now there are many many MANY adults out there who can not have children and would adopt a child...why not just put the baby up for adoption and make someone elses dreams come true. I don't think that the government should step in however and tell you what you have to do. Its your life and whatnot and I do believe we should have the ability to make our own decisions without the gov. stepping in.
Good to have you. I agree with you as well.

[allelish]

OH MY FUCKING GOD. people on here are so stupid. and i think it's funny how people are pro-life yet listen to bands that are fully pro-choice and write songs/take role in pro-choice events, readings, etc. dumb....but i'd expect it. it's sad to see how the state of punk and underground culture is being run by a bunch of boring, misogynistic, racist, and homophobic people. it's even more sad, that people are so naive and clueless.

i'll end this with an important and still revelvant song, Jigsaw Youth...

"I can sell my body if I wanna!
GOD KNOWS YOU'VE ALREADY SOLD YR MIND!
I may sell my body for money sometimes...
YOU CAN'T STOP THE FIRE, THAT BURNS, INSIDE OF ME!
you think that i don't know
i'm here to tell you i do...
you think that i don't know...
I KNOW THE TRUTH ABOUT YOU YAH!

jigsaw, jigsaw youth!
we go with the kids
yeah yeah...
jigsaw, jigsaw youth!

we know there's not one way, one light...one stupid truth!
won't fit yr defintions
won't meet yr demands
not into win/lose reality
won't fit into yr plans!"


stop living your lives in a christian-filled world. start thinking for yourself because in the end, you've got two choices: become a robot and march in the same army as everyone else is doing or start a revolution and set this world on fire.

hahahahahahahahahahahaha...what a punk.

Tosser.

AmericanDreams is a moron, see above.

hahaha that made me laugh after reading that guys post.

[boldt_action]

hahahahahahahahahahahaha...what a punk.

Tosser.



hahaha that made me laugh after reading that guys post. yea, it was rather humourous

[americandreams]

wow. i don't even know how to reply to all of this. i've read over some of my posts and i've been trying to figure out if i'm a hypocrite or not. hmmm....it seems there is a lot of misquoting. not on my part, obviously, because i am after all an elitist asshole. god, this posting shit is fun. it's nice to see people still get stirred up over nothing.

and for the record, i love mr. moore so much, i constantly masturbate to his picture...mmmm...

and ROCK FOR BUSH IS SO AWESOME! OH YAH BABY! FUCK BUSH! YAH! KILL COPS! WOOHOO!






am i ironic or moronic? both. haha. fuckers.

[getupkid53]

wow. i don't even know how to reply to all of this, so I will make a bunch of asanine statements that have no real value and most likely will not make sense to anyone with an IQ over 4. So I digress, I have no right to be arguing anything political because I am an uninformed twat.

Preach it, brotha.

[boldt_action]

wow. i don't even know how to reply to all of this. i've read over some of my posts and i've been trying to figure out if i'm a hypocrite or not. hmmm....it seems there is a lot of misquoting. not on my part, obviously, because i am after all an elitist asshole. god, this posting shit is fun. it's nice to see people still get stirred up over nothing.

and for the record, i love mr. moore so much, i constantly masturbate to his picture...mmmm...

and ROCK FOR BUSH IS SO AWESOME! OH YAH BABY! FUCK BUSH! YAH! KILL COPS! WOOHOO!






am i ironic or moronic? both. haha. fuckers.

seriously, what kind of drugs are you on?

[boldt_action]

Preach it, brotha. :amen: what misquotes??

[americandreams]

again, retarded people amuse me. keep babbling on and on. because everyone that has had something to say over about what i've said, is still stupid. come on, death cab for cutie? fall out boy? MXPX? why continue this? it's pointless. either way, i'm always going to be right. i listen to better music, i'm a lot more educated than half of you nimrods. seriously though, you guys amaze. come on, teach me more. let me get on my knees and start sucking. oh baby.

[Carlo Marx]

again, retarded people amuse me. keep babbling on and on. because everyone that has had something to say over about what i've said, is still stupid. come on, death cab for cutie? fall out boy? MXPX? why continue this? it's pointless. either way, i'm always going to be right. i listen to better music, i'm a lot more educated than half of you nimrods. seriously though, you guys amaze. come on, teach me more. let me get on my knees and start sucking. oh baby.

listening to sonic youth doesnt mean you have better taste than everyone. it means you listen to the same music as everyone else on here plus one more band.

[Carlo Marx]

now, if you'll excuse me, i have some crimpshrine to get back to listening to

[allelish]

again, retarded people amuse me. keep babbling on and on. because everyone that has had something to say over about what i've said, is still stupid. come on, death cab for cutie? fall out boy? MXPX? why continue this? it's pointless. either way, i'm always going to be right. i listen to better music, i'm a lot more educated than half of you nimrods. seriously though, you guys amaze. come on, teach me more. let me get on my knees and start sucking. oh baby.
you, my liege, are a royal fuckhouse.

[americandreams]

listening to sonic youth doesnt mean you have better taste than everyone. it means you listen to the same music as everyone else on here plus one more band.



actually, it does. because no where have i seen that anyone on this site listens to sonic youth. or half of the other bands i like. c'mon, do you really think anyone on here knows who the Nation Of Ulysses are/were? i don't think so. and how many people do you know that listen to limpwrist? not too many. i guess i should clarify myself better..most, if not all of the people on this site are all pretty dumb. there are exceptions. you, as i have read some of your posts and your profile, are an exception. and i don't mean that as trying to say you are cool and that we should be friends. but you aren't stupid. from what i can tell. ok, i'm done now. i'll go back to being a snob again. i'm good at it, even though it's all satire.

[americandreams]

i also noticed something else...most of the people that do actually list the bands that i like in their profile, turn out to be idiots. i mean seriously....how do you listen to bikini kill and the sex pistols? or le tigre and brand new? totally different. and i don't mean it as to say that people can't like different types of music, but it just kind of confuses me as to why people are listening to bikini kill if not for the politics and message? i mean seriously, bikini kill is a punk band. and most punk rock music(meaning the guitar playing, drums, etc etc) are bad. haha. i just don't get it.

[Cal Smith]

actually, it does. because no where have i seen that anyone on this site listens to sonic youth. or half of the other bands i like. c'mon, do you really think anyone on here knows who the Nation Of Ulysses are/were? i don't think so. and how many people do you know that listen to limpwrist? not too many. i guess i should clarify myself better..most, if not all of the people on this site are all pretty dumb. there are exceptions. you, as i have read some of your posts and your profile, are an exception. and i don't mean that as trying to say you are cool and that we should be friends. but you aren't stupid. from what i can tell. ok, i'm done now. i'll go back to being a snob again. i'm good at it, even though it's all satire.

If I didnt know better...........I'd say someone has a crush

[Paul Tao]

again, retarded people amuse me. keep babbling on and on. because everyone that has had something to say over about what i've said, is still stupid. come on, death cab for cutie? fall out boy? MXPX? why continue this? it's pointless. either way, i'm always going to be right. i listen to better music, i'm a lot more educated than half of you nimrods. seriously though, you guys amaze. come on, teach me more. let me get on my knees and start sucking. oh baby.
that's cute.

[getupkid53]

Looks like American Dreams does a little more than just listen to limpwrist......

[Paul Tao]

Looks like American Dreams does a little more than just listen to limpwrist......
he listens to Hole.

[getupkid53]

he listens to Hole.

I was trying to refer to the fact that he wanted to pump Marco, but yeah, anyone who says they have great taste in music, then adds hole and head automatica in the mix doesn't deserve another thought.

[Justin_stacy]

I was trying to refer to the fact that he wanted to pump Marco, but yeah, anyone who says they have great taste in music, then adds hole and head automatica in the mix doesn't deserve another thought.

Man I would have thought that the locust alone would have been sufficient enough to discredit anyone’s "taste" in music......

[lightcollapse]

stop with all these "well if its just some 15 year old girl" comments.

so you're saying nobody should have sex unless they want to get pregnant?

if you get pregnant, and want to stop being pregnant so you don't have to go through childbirth and carry around a baby for 9 months, being limited physically and destroyed socially, then you get an abortion.

but yeah, so a person shouldn't ever have sex unless they want to procreate?

come on. don't say "just use protection." condoms break all.the.time.

[lightcollapse]

there will NEVER be a law that says abortion is only legal if the cause is from rape. because it takes longer than 9 months to finish a rape case alone. so that will never work.

[americandreams]

no shit. i do more than listen to limpwrist? FUCK YAH. man, i love cock. it's good. does that make you nervous? that i am challenging your fucking roles? i think so. how 'bout this, everyone on here is a fucking idiot. yah, it's true. don't try to convince yourself otherwise. oh and hole...i can tell you courtney love writes ten times better lyrics than someone like say, Rx Bandits. seriously though, come on guys, seriously, weezer writes amazing lyrics.

[americandreams]

as for all of this posting, it's kind of run its course. everyone thinks i'm a douche bag and i'm quite fine with that. because i know i'm better. it's just how it is.

[lightcollapse]

as for all of this posting, it's kind of run its course. everyone thinks i'm a douche bag and i'm quite fine with that. because i know i'm better. it's just how it is.

you have a thursday avatar.

9/10 people on this site buy new pants over thursday.

[commatosa]

what's funny is that people who claim to be pro-life will say things like "abortions should only be allowed for rape or incest." That makes you pro-choice. Also, why do you pro-lifers always assume that us pro-choicers like abortion.... as if we hang out at abortion clinics encouraging girls to have sex and come back to get an abortion. Always with the whole "ooh, we're christian and we're being persecuted." No, us pro-choicers have a magical power that we're able to see things from other people's perspectives.

[Cal Smith]

what's funny is that people who claim to be pro-life will say things like "abortions should only be allowed for rape or incest." That makes you pro-choice. Also, why do you pro-lifers always assume that us pro-choicers like abortion.... as if we hang out at abortion clinics encouraging girls to have sex and come back to get an abortion. Always with the whole "ooh, we're christian and we're being persecuted." No, us pro-choicers have a magical power that we're able to see things from other people's perspectives.

except obviously the perspective of those who believe life occurs at conception

[Lueda Alia]

except obviously the perspective of those who believe life occurs at conception
there is nothing wrong with that because at the end of the day, abortion doesn't affect you. and I'm sure the person you quoted was talking about people who do/want to have one.

[Kid Kilowatt]

Life begins at birth. At least, that is the best dividing line between human life, as in me, and a fetus.

[dai the flu]

there is nothing wrong with that because at the end of the day, abortion doesn't affect you. and I'm sure the person you quoted was talking about people who do/want to have one.

i hate the whole argument "it doesnt affect you, you shouldnt care".
if you were to get raped or murdered or robbed or whatever, should i not think its wrong because it "really doesnt affect" me?
no, you should feel sorry and empathize with the victim.
and in this case, i feel the unborn baby is a victim. because i feel the unborn baby is alive.
i personally dont understand how anybody can look into it from a biological standpoint and tell me that the baby is NOT alive. it blows my mind. sortve deluding yourself to clear your conscience. thats what it looks like to me.

[Kid Kilowatt]

i personally dont understand how anybody can look into it from a biological standpoint and tell me that the baby is NOT alive. it blows my mind. sortve deluding yourself to clear your conscience. thats what it looks like to me.
Biological life means little. Personhood is what actually matters.

[boldt_action]

stop with all these "well if its just some 15 year old girl" comments.

so you're saying nobody should have sex unless they want to get pregnant?

if you get pregnant, and want to stop being pregnant so you don't have to go through childbirth and carry around a baby for 9 months, being limited physically and destroyed socially, then you get an abortion.

but yeah, so a person shouldn't ever have sex unless they want to procreate?

come on. don't say "just use protection." condoms break all.the.time.
then the people who are having sex need to be prepared to have a child, believe it or not, there are consequences for our actions in life, and we have to face up to them. This being one of them.

there is nothing wrong with that because at the end of the day, abortion doesn't affect you. and I'm sure the person you quoted was talking about people who do/want to have one. This is possibly the stupidest thing i have ever heard. Exactly like Dai said. So if someone gets murdered, as long as it doesn't affect me why should I care? That's total bullshit, you can't even use that as an argument. Don't use that argument simply because there are no other good reasons in your head. It's childish.

[boldt_action]

Biological life means little. Personhood is what actually matters.
And would you care to tell me what exactly defines 'personhood'?

[Cal Smith]

And would you care to tell me what exactly defines 'personhood'?

EXACTLY............when you start defining human life in terms of "personhood" you have a whole lot of grey area to play in. And walk a dangerous line.

[boldt_action]

EXACTLY............when you start defining human life in terms of "personhood" you have a whole lot of grey area to play in. And walk a dangerous line.
Thank You, the point is that there's no point at which you can say, alright now this is a person. When do you make that distinction. A baby doesn't form from a fetus and in one instant become a person. That's not how it works, there is no definition of personhood, and that argument makes no sense.

[Kid Kilowatt]

Sentience is one aspect of personhood, and that isn't attained until birth.

[Kid Kilowatt]

And would you care to tell me what exactly defines 'personhood'?
We do.

[Kid Kilowatt]

That's not how it works.
According to you, perhaps.

[Kid Kilowatt]

EXACTLY............when you start defining human life in terms of "personhood" you have a whole lot of grey area to play in. And walk a dangerous line.
The line is clearly defined with birth.

[boldt_action]

The line is clearly defined with birth.
Sentience is one aspect of personhood, and that isn't attained until birth.
We do.
According to you, perhaps.
Alright, so you're arguing that the instant that baby pops out, that it's then a person, before that it was just a thing? And if sentience only comes after birth, how do babies hear things, listen to music, listen to sounds. There are things that happen in the womb where a baby develops. What do you mean according to me? I was saying that there is no defined line when a baby becomes a "person", if there is one, please enlighten me.

[Cal Smith]

The line is clearly defined with birth.

Clearly defined with birth?

Quick easy, yes or no question for you to answer:

You have a child born 2 months premature................you consider this a person? YES OR NO
You have a child aborted 2 months premautre............you consider this a person? YES OR NO

Each child is at the exact same stage in development, yet through your idiotic definintion of a person, simply because one has came out of the womb, it's a person and the other...................it's expendable. Is this really a concept you're willing ot stand behind?

You're an ignorant person

[getupkid53]

I hope he doesn't try to circle those options.

[boldt_action]

Clearly defined with birth?

Quick easy, yes or no question for you to answer:

You have a child born 2 months premature................you consider this a person? YES OR NO
You have a child aborted 2 months premautre............you consider this a person? YES OR NO

Each child is at the exact same stage in development, yet through your idiotic definintion of a person, simply because one has came out of the womb, it's a person and the other...................it's expendable. Is this really a concept you're willing ot stand behind?

You're an ignorant person
Good point, that's what I meant, but that made it a lot clearer, perfect.

[Kid Kilowatt]

Alright, so you're arguing that the instant that baby pops out, that it's then a person, before that it was just a thing? And if sentience only comes after birth, how do babies hear things, listen to music, listen to sounds. There are things that happen in the womb where a baby develops. What do you mean according to me? I was saying that there is no defined line when a baby becomes a "person", if there is one, please enlighten me.
Physical reactions imply sentience?
What do you mean according to me? I was saying that there is no defined line when a baby becomes a "person", if there is one, please enlighten me.
You said, "That's not how it works". That is your worldview. I see it very differently.
Alright, so you're arguing that the instant that baby pops out, that it's then a person, before that it was just a thing?
That is when we can best define it as an object with the moral value of a person.

[Lueda Alia]

This is possibly the stupidest thing i have ever heard. Exactly like Dai said. So if someone gets murdered, as long as it doesn't affect me why should I care? That's total bullshit, you can't even use that as an argument. Don't use that argument simply because there are no other good reasons in your head. It's childish.
I'm not saying you shouldn't care. so learn to read, please. I said we don't have to take into consideration your views if you're not affected by it like the person wanting to have an abortion is.

[Lueda Alia]

i hate the whole argument "it doesnt affect you, you shouldnt care".
if you were to get raped or murdered or robbed or whatever, should i not think its wrong because it "really doesnt affect" me?
no, you should feel sorry and empathize with the victim.
and in this case, i feel the unborn baby is a victim. because i feel the unborn baby is alive.
i personally dont understand how anybody can look into it from a biological standpoint and tell me that the baby is NOT alive. it blows my mind. sortve deluding yourself to clear your conscience. thats what it looks like to me.
I don't need to clear any conscience. you have no proof to say that life begins at conception, so don't even try to use that in your arguement. secondly, while you care about something that's not a human being, I care about the person that already is a "human being" ... someone who's already living, someone who has a life. in my opinion, no one should force a woman to be a slave. am I exaggerating? absolutely not. if you force her to carry a child inside of her own body against her will, you are treating her as a slave. so in my eyes, she's the victim here, not a bunch of cells.

also, can you please define a human being for me? what do you consider a human being? what do they have to have in ordered to be considered one?

[Kid Kilowatt]

Clearly defined with birth?
Quick easy, yes or no question for you to answer:
You have a child born 2 months premature................you consider this a person? YES OR NO
Yes.
Clearly defined with birth?
Quick easy, yes or no question for you to answer:

You have a child aborted 2 months premautre............you consider this a person? YES OR NO
/QUOTE]
No.

[QUOTE=Cal Smith]
Each child is at the exact same stage in development, yet through your idiotic definintion of a person, simply because one has came out of the womb, it's a person and the other...................it's expendable. Is this really a concept you're willing ot stand behind?
Birth allows for a clear dividing line between a person, me, and a fetus, a non-person.

You're an ignorant person
Ad hominem.

[Lueda Alia]

This is a pointless arguement.

[lightcollapse]

Clearly defined with birth?

Quick easy, yes or no question for you to answer:

You have a child born 2 months premature................you consider this a person? YES OR NO
You have a child aborted 2 months premautre............you consider this a person? YES OR NO

Each child is at the exact same stage in development, yet through your idiotic definintion of a person, simply because one has came out of the womb, it's a person and the other...................it's expendable. Is this really a concept you're willing ot stand behind?

You're an ignorant person

a baby thats born 2 months premature has a very small chance of living.

[boldt_action]

there is nothing wrong with that because at the end of the day, abortion doesn't affect you. and I'm sure the person you quoted was talking about people who do/want to have one.
Here's your quote right here. Exactly what were you implying then when you said abortion doesn't affect me. Who are you? Do you know me? Who are you to tell me it doesn't affect me. The doesn't make any sense. Even if it didn't affect me, my opinion still matters.
I don't need to clear any conscience. you have no proof to say that life begins at conception, so don't even try to use that in your arguement. secondly, while you care about something that's not a human being, I care about the person that already is a "human being" ... someone who's already living, someone who has a life. in my opinion, no one should force a woman to be a slave. am I exaggerating? absolutely not. if you force her to carry a child inside of her own body against her will, you are treating her as a slave. so in my eyes, she's the victim here, not a bunch of cells.

also, can you please define a human being for me? what do you consider a human being? what do they have to have in ordered to be considered one?
Regardless of whether the baby is a life or not. Who are you to tell me or anyone that the mother's life is more important than that babies. Please tell me cause I'm dying to know. You can't justify it by calling it a thing, or a fetus when the baby is already developing, forming a brain, limbs, eyes ears.

This is a pointless arguement.
Argument is the word i believe you're looking for, and no it's not when babies are still being killed daily. I'd say it has a huge point.

[boldt_action]

a baby thats born 2 months premature has a very small chance of living.
It's still alive and a baby. Sooo.. I don't get it.

[Lueda Alia]

Here's your quote right here. Exactly what were you implying then when you said abortion doesn't affect me. Who are you? Do you know me? Who are you to tell me it doesn't affect me. The doesn't make any sense. Even if it didn't affect me, my opinion still matters.

If it doesn't affect you, then I won't take your feelings into consideration over someone's who is directly affected by it. That's all I'm saying - I never said that it doesn't affect you personally. I have no idea who you are, I was generally speaking.

Regardless of whether the baby is a life or not. Who are you to tell me or anyone that the mother's life is more important than that babies. Please tell me cause I'm dying to know. You can't justify it by calling it a thing, or a fetus when the baby is already developing, forming a brain, limbs, eyes ears.



Point is, it doesn't yet have a heart, a brain or feelings, thus making it inferior to the mother - who already has all of these. Or maybe they're equal, sure, okay. If you want to consider the baby a "person," that's fine, but since when is it legal for a person to use another person's body without their consent?

[boldt_action]

If it doesn't affect you, then I won't take your feelings into consideration over someone's who is directly affected by it. That's all I'm saying - I never said that it doesn't affect you personally. I have no idea who you are, I was generally speaking.


Point is, it doesn't yet have a heart, a brain or feelings, thus making it inferior to the mother. Or maybe they're equal, sure, okay. If you want to consider the baby a "person," that's fine, but since when is it legal for a person to use another person's body without their consent?
Without consent?!? She has to live up to her actions, alright, I don't care who the hell she is, how much money she has, who her friends are. She signed up for the consequences when she took the risk. She had sex, the condomn broke, the pill didn't work. Whatever happened, she knew the risks, she took precautions, she made the gamble. Now then, she did it in full knownledge of the consequences, NOW SHE HAS TO LIVE UP TO THEM. Any other way is irresponsible and a cop out, end of story.

[Lueda Alia]

Without consent?!? She has to live up to her actions, alright, I don't care who the hell she is, how much money she has, who her friends are. She signed up for the consequences when she took the risk. She had sex, the condomn broke, the pill didn't work. Whatever happened, she knew the risks, she took precautions, she made the gamble. Now then, she did it in full knownledge of the consequences, NOW SHE HAS TO LIVE UP TO THEM. Any other way is irresponsible and a cop out, end of story.
She doesn't have to live up to them if she doesn't want to.

And I don't ever recall anyone signing any contract before having sex. Are things really that different on the other side of Canada?

[boldt_action]

She doesn't have to live up to them if she doesn't want to.

And I don't ever recall anyone signing any contract before having sex. Are things really that different on the other side of Canada? Are all of you really all that dumb in the States? But, seriously, you are getting more and more ridiculous every post. I know, thats the way we should do things, nobody's really responsible. You raped someone, no worries man, you were mad, you're not really responsible. What? jail time? naw man, it's all good. /sarcasm
Really good idea lets raise the new generation with the idea that we aren't really responsible for our actions and don't have to face the consequences. Then what kidn of world will we have, honestly listen to what your saying. The most ignorant ideas I've ever heard all spewing from one person, it's magical really.

[Lueda Alia]

Are all of you really all that dumb in the States? But, seriously, you are getting more and more ridiculous every post. I know, thats the way we should do things, nobody's really responsible. You raped someone, no worries man, you were mad, you're not really responsible. What? jail time? naw man, it's all good. /sarcasm
Really good idea lets raise the new generation with the idea that we aren't really responsible for our actions and don't have to face the consequences. Then what kidn of world will we have, honestly listen to what your saying. The most ignorant ideas I've ever heard all spewing from one person, it's magical really.
You make me laugh.

[boldt_action]

You make me laugh.
So do you:thumbsup:

[save_me]

im pro-choice.

[Cal Smith]

Yes.
[QUOTE=Cal Smith]Clearly defined with birth?
Quick easy, yes or no question for you to answer:
You have a child aborted 2 months premautre............you consider this a person? YES OR NO
/QUOTE]
No.
Birth allows for a clear dividing line between a person, me, and a fetus, a non-person.
Ad hominem.

So you'd support abortions minutes away from a childs delivery?

[Cal Smith]

a baby thats born 2 months premature has a very small chance of living.

So............?

[lightcollapse]

So............?

i just thought i'd point that out.

[commatosa]

So............?

Cal, stop trying to pin people into saying something unethical. Of course no one would kill a baby so close to it's birth. And besides, that's illegal. Remember now, we're defending keeping abortion legal in it's first trimester. Anyway....

why is it that the same people who are pro-life always say "they have to live up to their consequences; they should use protection." But then they're also the same people saying "no! People shouldn't be handing out condoms at school."

[commatosa]

Are all of you really all that dumb in the States? But, seriously, you are getting more and more ridiculous every post. I know, thats the way we should do things, nobody's really responsible. You raped someone, no worries man, you were mad, you're not really responsible. What? jail time? naw man, it's all good. /sarcasm
Really good idea lets raise the new generation with the idea that we aren't really responsible for our actions and don't have to face the consequences. Then what kidn of world will we have, honestly listen to what your saying. The most ignorant ideas I've ever heard all spewing from one person, it's magical really.

well what is it? Is a fetus a human life or is it a consequence. Now make sure you don't flip flop. Anyway, as if conservatives really have a right to talk about "you need to think about the consequences for your actions." They were gung-ho and voted for the most gung-ho government ever to grace the earth.

[lightcollapse]

the fact is, nobody (or a VERY small amount of people) is going to wait to have sex until they're ready to get pregnant. so we can't have a bunch of teenyboppers carrying around babies. abortion is the safer side.

[A picasso blue]

if you're pro-life, I think it's probably against the "rules" to masturbate. no?

[lightcollapse]

if you're pro-life, I think it's probably against the "rules" to masturbate. no?

i'd rather keep my eyesight. THANKS.

[Lueda Alia]

well what is it? Is a fetus a human life or is it a consequence. Now make sure you don't flip flop. Anyway, as if conservatives really have a right to talk about "you need to think about the consequences for your actions." They were gung-ho and voted for the most gung-ho government ever to grace the earth.
I've decided that that person is simply just funny. His reply to my post (that you quoted) clearly shows that.

[Cal Smith]

Cal, stop trying to pin people into saying something unethical. Of course no one would kill a baby so close to it's birth. And besides, that's illegal. Remember now, we're defending keeping abortion legal in it's first trimester. Anyway....

why is it that the same people who are pro-life always say "they have to live up to their consequences; they should use protection." But then they're also the same people saying "no! People shouldn't be handing out condoms at school."

I'm not trying to pin him into saying anything. He said himself that a person is not a person until birth. I'm trying to see to see if he truly believes that.

If he really believes in what he's saying then you would think HE would support abortions minutes before a delivery. I'm just wondering if this is the case.

I'm not talking law here, I'm wondering about his personal opinion.

[SuperWoman7700]

Legalized abortion lowers the crime rate too (kind of)! Read Freakonomics.

I love that book!

[Kid Kilowatt]

So you'd support abortions minutes away from a childs delivery?
Probably not, but only because of the dangers to the mother.

[lightcollapse]

anti-abortion is a very dangerous position.

[dai the flu]

anti-abortion is a very dangerous position.
why?


and kid kilowatt, ive noticed we consistently disagree on everything on this board. not to mention you consistently come across as an ignorant self-absorbed douche.

on the other hand, cal smith, i never have to reply much, cuz you're always saying exactly what im thinking.