Rodriguez AL MVP

[Emopunkthrice]

NEW YORK -- Alex Rodriguez may not yet have any World Series rings to show for his remarkable career, but the Yankees' third baseman picked up his second American League Most Valuable Player Award on Monday.

Rodriguez beat out David Ortiz, Boston's larger-than-life designated hitter, who finished a close second in the voting. Rodriguez earned 16 first-place votes and 331 points, while Ortiz received 11 first-place votes and 307 points.

"David Ortiz is a great player, and I have a great privilege not only to compete against David, but against a great organization like the Red Sox," Rodriguez said. "I'd certainly trade his World Series championship for this MVP trophy."

Los Angeles' Vladimir Guerrero received the other first-place vote, finishing third. Boston's Manny Ramirez and Cleveland's Travis Hafner rounded out the top five.

Rodriguez got 11 second-place votes and one third, while Ortiz was listed second on 17 ballots.

"I'm very happy for Alex," said Yankees manager Joe Torre. "This is a very proud moment for him. I'm very pleased with the year he had. He's getting more comfortable here in New York. Alex helped us win so many games, both offensively and defensively, and he continues to improve."

"This is an A-Rod day in New York," said George Steinbrenner. "I am very proud of Alex Rodriguez, and I am delighted for him and his family. A-Rod demonstrates the talent, hard work, and dedication of a true winner. On behalf of our devoted New York Yankee fans, I look forward to great things for many years from A-Rod as a Yankee."

A-Rod's numbers were hard to argue with: a .321 average, 130 RBIs and an AL-leading 48 home runs. Considering Ortiz's final stats (.300-47-148), a case could have been made for either candidate, but Rodriguez's stellar play at third base likely pushed him over the top, as Ortiz's status as a DH hurt him with some voters.

"Defense -- for the most part, being a balanced player and saving a lot of runs on the defensive side -- was a major factor," Rodriguez said. "I've been in a lot of these races and come in second and third place, so I thought David had as good a chance as I did."

Votes were cast before the postseason, which was good news for both A-Rod and Big Papi, who may have watched Chicago's Paul Konerko vault himself to the top in that scenario. Rodriguez went 2-for-15 in the Yankees' ALDS loss to the Angels, while Ortiz had just one RBI as the Red Sox were swept out of the playoffs by the White Sox in the opening round.

"I was tough on myself because I always expect to play very good baseball," said A-Rod, who referred to himself as a "dog" after New York's Game 5 loss in Anaheim. "My one regret is that I thought I could have walked 10 or 12 times, passed the baton and been a little more patient."

The fact that the Yankees overtook the Red Sox to win their eighth consecutive AL East title probably didn't hurt Rodriguez, either. In the clincher, which came on the penultimate day of the regular season, A-Rod went 4-for-5 with a home run in the Yankees' 8-4 victory at Fenway Park.

A-Rod ranked in the top five in the AL in homers (first), RBIs (fourth), batting average (second), runs (first), slugging percentage (first), OPS (first), on-base percentage (second) and walks (third). He even added 21 stolen bases, which was ninth best in the league.

Rodriguez's award is the 19th in Yankees history, the most of any franchise. He is the first Yankee to win the MVP Award since Don Mattingly captured it in 1985. Joe DiMaggio, Yogi Berra and Mickey Mantle won three MVPs apiece, while Roger Maris won two. Other Yankees winners were Lou Gehrig, Joe Gordon, Spud Chandler, Phil Rizzuto, Elston Howard and Thurman Munson.

Rodriguez became the 24th multiple MVP winner and only the fourth to win at two positions and with two clubs. He was a shortstop with the Rangers when he was the AL MVP in 2003.

Rodriguez has also been the runner-up twice, in 2002 with Texas to Oakland's Miguel Tejada and in 1996 with Seattle to Texas' Juan Gonzalez.

Ortiz's supporters pointed to his numbers in "close and late" situations, which are defined by at-bats in the seventh inning or later with the team either ahead by one run, tied or with the potential tying run at least on deck.

In 78 such at-bats, Ortiz hit .346 (27-for-78) with 11 home runs, 33 RBIs and a .447 on-base percentage. But A-Rod posted respectable numbers in those situations, too, hitting .293 (22-for-75) with four home runs, 12 RBIs and a .418 on-base percentage.

Rodriguez, who took a lot of heat in 2004 for hitting just .248 with runners in scoring position -- including a .206 mark with RISP and two outs -- made up for it this season. With runners in scoring position, Rodriguez hit .290, including a .302 average with two outs.

But it was his defense at the hot corner -- which many believed was Gold Glove-worthy -- which pushed him past Ortiz for MVP honors.

"I think being on the field every day is a strong requirement, and doing it on both sides," Rodriguez said. "I think it's someone that goes out and helps the team day in and day out. How many runs is this guy saving a year?"

Rodriguez, who set an AL mark for most home runs by a third baseman, also set a new club standard for right-handed hitters with his 48 homers, breaking DiMaggio's 68-year-old mark of 47. DiMaggio's 1937 season had been the only one in which a right-handed hitter hit more than 40 home runs for the Bombers.

Of those 48 long balls, 26 of them came at Yankee Stadium, as A-Rod shattered the previous team mark of 19 home runs hit by a right-hander in the Bronx. The mark had been held by DiMaggio ('37) and Gary Sheffield (2004).

Rodriguez also became the youngest player in baseball history to reach 400 home runs, hitting his milestone shot on June 8 in Milwaukee. Rodriguez hit 409 homers before his 30th birthday, eclipsing the mark of his former teammate, Ken Griffey Jr., who hit 398 homers before turning 30.

"I can't wait to get back to Spring Training to work on my skills, continue to be a better player and reach my ultimate goal," Rodriguez said. "Winning the MVP is a great thing, but I'm here to do one thing, which is to win a championship."

[Jesse2]

woop woop

[somethingyellow]

great player but personally can't stand him

[BigD]

no suprise there, he earned it

[weezer182]

hopefully thats all he will win in his career

[Drew Beringer]

Wow, I'm glad that the AL MVP showed up in the playoffs....oh wait that's right, he didn't. :shake:

[Jesse2]

Wow, I'm glad that the AL MVP showed up in the playoffs....oh wait that's right, he didn't. :shake:

hardy har har

[walshknilb281]

no suprise there, he earned it

He didnt earnit half as much as David Ortiz did. A-Rod yea great player but Big Papi is the real MVP of the league. The guys gets a clutch hit every time he's up. Plus he's getting paid about 1/6th of what Arod makes. I don't care if he doesnt play defense either.

[Trainsaw]

Wow, I'm glad that the AL MVP showed up in the playoffs....oh wait that's right, he didn't. :shake:
too bad they don't have scene pts anymore cause that earned some

[Drew Beringer]

too bad they don't have scene pts anymore cause that earned some

:bigsmile:

[hockey0001]

I still think that Big Papi should have won it, but you cant really argue with A-rod winning it. What I cant understand is how the hell some writer could put vlad first on the ballot, ahead of both Papi and A-rod.

[Scott Weber]

He didnt earnit half as much as David Ortiz did. A-Rod yea great player but Big Papi is the real MVP of the league. The guys gets a clutch hit every time he's up. Plus he's getting paid about 1/6th of what Arod makes. I don't care if he doesnt play defense either.
I love Ortiz and I hate A-Rod, but A-Rod is the MVP, there's no contest. A-Rod dominated Ortiz in every statistical category except RBIs...plus he's faster and plays solid defense (and Ortiz is a DH). Ortiz got plenty of clutch hits, but A-Rod was no slouch either.

[oeness]

More fuel for the Yankee Red Sox rivalry...I love it

[NetNerdsRevenge]

Doesn't beat ALCS 2004 MVP.

Congrats slappy

[walshknilb281]

I love Ortiz and I hate A-Rod, but A-Rod is the MVP, there's no contest. A-Rod dominated Ortiz in every statistical category except RBIs...plus he's faster and plays solid defense (and Ortiz is a DH). Ortiz got plenty of clutch hits, but A-Rod was no slouch either.

Yea I no you got a good point. A-Rod in my opinion was sencond best player in the league, I dont know I might see it your way if I wasnt from Boston but ever since he bitch slapped Arroyo in 2004 Ive lost total respectfor him. I still think Ortiz should have won for all the clutch hits.

[leafsacc]

A-Rod can win all win mvp every year as long as they keep losing in the the playoffs.

[crit]

what a shame.

[crit]

from the 7th inning on:

A-Rod:
26 rbi.

Papi:
50 rbi.

[Katie Schmitz]

i wanted pappa ortiz!!

[Spicoli hey bud]

http://timmygunz.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/arodmvpsmall.gif

[Scott Weber]

from the 7th inning on:

A-Rod:
26 rbi.

Papi:
50 rbi.
Haha, look, I'm a big Boston fan, but you people need to stop throwing around those numbers. Yeah, it's impressive, but it's ONE statistical category. A-Rod absolutely DOMINATES Ortiz in statistics across the board, PLUS he contributes a more than solid glove and arm to the infield, where as Ortiz sits on the bench. It's most VALUABLE player, not most clutch player, and A-Rod provides a better value overall to his team.

[Drew Beringer]

Haha, look, I'm a big Boston fan, but you people need to stop throwing around those numbers. Yeah, it's impressive, but it's ONE statistical category. A-Rod absolutely DOMINATES Ortiz in statistics across the board, PLUS he contributes a more than solid glove and arm to the infield, where as Ortiz sits on the bench. It's most VALUABLE player, not most clutch player, and A-Rod provides a better value overall to his team.

Good thing MVP isn't about being clutch, A-Rod would never come close to winning it then.

[Spicoli hey bud]

Good thing MVP isn't about being clutch, A-Rod would never come close to winning it then.
I'm pretty sure he batted over .300 each year he was in the playoffs with seattle

[crit]

Well A-Rod got a nice million dollar bonus (who knew a $252 million dollar contract had incentives in it!?) for winning the award so he can go play some illegal poker somewhere in New York.

Okay now I'm becoming a bitter asshole and need to shutup.

[crit]

Haha, look, I'm a big Boston fan, but you people need to stop throwing around those numbers. Yeah, it's impressive, but it's ONE statistical category. A-Rod absolutely DOMINATES Ortiz in statistics across the board, PLUS he contributes a more than solid glove and arm to the infield, where as Ortiz sits on the bench. It's most VALUABLE player, not most clutch player, and A-Rod provides a better value overall to his team.

I'd make the argument that A-Rod wasn't even the most valuable player on his own team. Mariano was by far the most valuable Yankee. He had a career year and if not for him, the Yanks would have not made the playoffs.

[Drew Beringer]

I'm pretty sure he batted over .300 each year he was in the playoffs with seattle

That's when he had no pressure, now he is in NY and hits .133 in the postseason with 0 RBIs in 2005.

[Scott Weber]

Good thing MVP isn't about being clutch, A-Rod would never come close to winning it then.
His clutch numbers aren't bad, like you guys make it out to be...I mean, he did hit .438 when the bases were loaded this year

[crit]

That's when he had no pressure, now he is in NY and hits .133 in the postseason with 0 RBIs in 2005.

If we were on Around the Horn and I was Tony Reali and you were one of the writers, I'd say "GOOD STAT, BERINGER!" and give you three points.

[Drew Beringer]

His clutch numbers aren't bad, like you guys make it out to be...I mean, he did hit .438 when the bases were loaded this year

Clutch to me is producing in big situations like the playoffs. So far, the New York A-Rod hasn't done that.

[Scott Weber]

I'd make the argument that A-Rod wasn't even the most valuable player on his own team. Mariano was by far the most valuable Yankee. He had a career year and if not for him, the Yanks would have not made the playoffs.
And that's why you're a bitter Yankees hater who is clearly blinded by your hate. you're retarded if you think A-Rod didn't deserve this.

[crit]

And that's why you're a bitter Yankees hater who is clearly blinded by your hate. you're retarded if you think A-Rod didn't deserve this.

He deserves it. I just think there's another guy who deserves it MORE. You can't argue with the season A-Rod had. He was probably the second best third basemen in the AL (behind Chavez who won the gold glove) and he had a huge offensive year. I'm not saying he didn't deserve it.

[Scott Weber]

Clutch to me is producing in big situations like the playoffs. So far, the New York A-Rod hasn't done that.
In New York - lemme check that. But overall?
http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/rodrial01.shtml

Career .330 hitter in the playoffs with 6 HRS and 16 RBI.

[Scott Weber]

Ok Drew, just checked it out. So, you're basing A-Rod's 1 year (5 game) performance in 2005 as your basis for an argument? That's pretty stupid. He batted .320 in the 2004 playoffs for the Yankees.

[Spicoli hey bud]

That's when he had no pressure, now he is in NY and hits .133 in the postseason with 0 RBIs in 2005.
He's a major league baseball player who came up as a top prospect
This factored in with playoff baseball sounds pretty pressure filled to me
Not necessarily as much as he has in NY, but "no pressure" is not accurate

[crit]

And also, I'd like to know who the one guy was who voted Vladdy.

[Spicoli hey bud]

And thank you Weber for providing the stats that I was trying to find. This was definitely ARods only sub par playoff performance.

[Drew Beringer]

Ok Drew, just checked it out. So, you're basing A-Rod's 1 year (5 game) performance in 2005 as your basis for an argument? That's pretty stupid. He batted .320 in the 2004 playoffs for the Yankees.

I know, I'm just trying to cause trouble.

[Scott Weber]

I know, I'm just trying to cause trouble.
You know I hate NYC too, but don't come talking trash over stuff that's not legit.

[Drew Beringer]

You know I hate NYC too, but don't come talking trash over stuff that's not legit.

Haha, I love getting people all fired up.

[Scott Weber]

Haha, I love getting people all fired up.
And I love making people who don't know what they're talking about look like idiots. Thanks!

[Drew Beringer]

And I love making people who don't know what they're talking about look like idiots. Thanks!

Yay! I'm glad I made your night :thumbsup:

[Scott Weber]

My job here is done.

[selftitled85]

Good thing MVP isn't about being clutch, A-Rod would never come close to winning it then.


yeah. then it would just go to derek jeter. no matter how much you all can hate on him, he is prob the most clutch hitter and makes the plays when it matters the most.

ie: the game saving play vs oakland in 01, his hr against anaheim to put nyy behind by one. countless game winning shots or hits to start a rally. he is mr. clutch.


and wow i never thought id see the day scott weber defends a yank.

[FinchBulldog2]

I wish Ortiz won, but both deserve it.

[hockey0001]

Haha, look, I'm a big Boston fan, but you people need to stop throwing around those numbers. Yeah, it's impressive, but it's ONE statistical category. A-Rod absolutely DOMINATES Ortiz in statistics across the board, PLUS he contributes a more than solid glove and arm to the infield, where as Ortiz sits on the bench. It's most VALUABLE player, not most clutch player, and A-Rod provides a better value overall to his team.


I admit that A-rod deserved the MVP but lets not get carried away with his glove. He's an average thirdbaseman. He's not nearly as good at third as he was at shortstop. I think this was discussed awhile ago, I'll see if i can find the thread.

[weezer182]

with the amount he gets paid he should win it every year

[Drew Beringer]

yeah. then it would just go to derek jeter. no matter how much you all can hate on him, he is prob the most clutch hitter and makes the plays when it matters the most.

ie: the game saving play vs oakland in 01, his hr against anaheim to put nyy behind by one. countless game winning shots or hits to start a rally. he is mr. clutch.


and wow i never thought id see the day scott weber defends a yank.

I agree with you about Jeter, I like him and respect him.

[Scott Weber]

I admit that A-rod deserved the MVP but lets not get carried away with his glove. He's an average thirdbaseman. He's not nearly as good at third as he was at 3rd. I think this was discussed awhile ago, I'll see if i can find the thread.
While true that he's not as good as he was at short, come on. give him some credit. he's better than average - he still has one of the most powerful and accurate arms of any infielder in the AL.

[Spicoli hey bud]

He's not nearly as good at third as he was at 3rd
Thank you for that

[Scott Weber]

and wow i never thought id see the day scott weber defends a yank.
I give respect to those who deserve it, I mean I have my own opinions but you can't argue with facts.

[selftitled85]

I give respect to those who deserve it, I mean I have my own opinions but you can't argue with facts.


and you cant. big papi was good this yr, and i hate him for it. but i still dont think he deserved the award.

just like how people were saying mo should of won the cy young even though he only pitched 80 or so innings. he was almost lights out all yr but it should go to someone who pitched 200+ and was consistently awesome all yr like colon was until he got injured in the playoffs.

[hockey0001]

And thank you Weber for providing the stats that I was trying to find. This was definitely ARods only sub par playoff performance.

Last years ALCS says hi.

.258 .378 .516, 2 for 17 in the games 4-7

[anishkabob]

the sports guy on espn makes a great point when he says that A-Rod is the game's scariest hitter when his team is up by 5 runs in the 7th.

papi should have won.

[hockey0001]

While true that he's not as good as he was at short, come on. give him some credit. he's better than average - he still has one of the most powerful and accurate arms of any infielder in the AL.

His arm is definately one of the best in terms of power and accuracy. What hurts his fielding though is his slow first step,


The a-rod vs papi mvp debate took place here also. So did the A-rod defensive ability argument.
http://www.absolutepunk.net/showthread.php?t=88596&highlight=papi

[selftitled85]

the sports guy on espn makes a great point when he says that A-Rod is the game's scariest hitter when his team is up by 5 runs in the 7th.

papi should have won.


except for the fact that during the yankees stank streak from may through july the only yankees that were hitting anything was arod and giambi. and giambi was more spurts than anything. arod was the only constant and he basically single handedly kept the yankees from getting shut out time and time again.

[crit]

the sports guy on espn makes a great point when he says that A-Rod is the game's scariest hitter when his team is up by 5 runs in the 7th.

papi should have won.

there's a great jayson stark article on espn.com that supports this.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2224114

"In the 20 games each of their teams won by six or more runs, A-Rod hit .549, had an OPS of 1.793 and racked up 46 of his 130 RBI (35 percent). Ortiz, on the other hand, batted .277, had an OPS almost 800 points lower than A-Rod's (.999) and drove in only 33 runs (22 percent of his overall total). But in close games (games that either went to extra innings or were decided by one or two runs in regulation), the numbers look a whole lot different.
In those games -- and each team played exactly 65 of them -- A-Rod batted only .243, had an OPS of .805 and drove in just 38 runs (29 percent). Ortiz, meanwhile, clearly tapped some mysterious force that made him even better in moments like that -- batting .321, running up an OPS of 1.116 and knocking in nearly a run a game (62 -- or 42 percent of his overall total).
Roll that info around your brain for a second. Think about what you make of it. All we know is that, when it came time to make our MVP pick at season's end, we had a tough time ignoring figures that staggering."


Scott's going to be mad at me again.

[Scott Weber]

there's a great jayson stark article on espn.com that supports this.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2224114

"In the 20 games each of their teams won by six or more runs, A-Rod hit .549, had an OPS of 1.793 and racked up 46 of his 130 RBI (35 percent). Ortiz, on the other hand, batted .277, had an OPS almost 800 points lower than A-Rod's (.999) and drove in only 33 runs (22 percent of his overall total). But in close games (games that either went to extra innings or were decided by one or two runs in regulation), the numbers look a whole lot different.
In those games -- and each team played exactly 65 of them -- A-Rod batted only .243, had an OPS of .805 and drove in just 38 runs (29 percent). Ortiz, meanwhile, clearly tapped some mysterious force that made him even better in moments like that -- batting .321, running up an OPS of 1.116 and knocking in nearly a run a game (62 -- or 42 percent of his overall total).
Roll that info around your brain for a second. Think about what you make of it. All we know is that, when it came time to make our MVP pick at season's end, we had a tough time ignoring figures that staggering."


Scott's going to be mad at me again.
Yeah, I read that article earlier. Haha, no, Jason has great points, but don't ignore the concessions he made at the end. I normally agree with Stark, but some of the stuff he said was stupid as hell.

"In the end, there's nothing embarrassing about handing an MVP trophy to the best all-around player of our time. We're just wondering how defense got to be such an important part of this MVP equation -- because if it always has been this important, then Mike Greenwell now has another reason to ask how his pal, Canseco, ever beat him in that '88 MVP race. "

Is Starks fucking serious? He made it seem like Jose Canseco was a bat only when he won the MVP award, but that wasn't true - did he forget that Jose was a 40/40 guy that year? He stole 40 bases... It's obvious your case is weak when you omit facts. But anywhooo....

Jason cleary shows my side of the argument, but maybe you didn't read the 2nd half of the article, I don't know.

"The trouble was, there was only one way he could do that -- by waving his magic bat. Alex Rodriguez, on the other hand, had other ways.

With the glove, A-Rod committed just two errors after June 23. He ripped off a 61-game errorless streak at one point. We have no way of knowing how many games he won with his glove. But we know exactly how many Ortiz won with his glove.

That, of course, would be none. "


He also doesn't address the fact that Ortiz is one of the worst baserunners in the MLB. How many runs/outs did Ortiz cost them when he was on the basepaths? Yes, offense comes first, like Stark said, and intangibles 2nd. While clutch hitting can be quantified by numbers, it's more of an intangible thing. And the fact that Ortiz sat his ass on the bench all year takes a lot of votes away from him. A-Rod's numbers are better, his defense is better, his speed is better, but Ortiz has clutch... a very, very big amount of it. Clutch is important, but is it enough to justify more votes than ALL those other categories? I still contend that it does not. (Remember, i LOVE Ortiz, and I hate A-Rod. I'm just saying.)

[Caleb Cattivera]

not a fan of either...but a rod deserved it.

[Spicoli hey bud]

Last years ALCS says hi.

.258 .378 .516, 2 for 17 in the games 4-7
he batted .421 in the ALDS
and .258 in the ALCS
a cumulative average of .320
that's not so bad

[Scott Weber]

he batted .421 in the ALDS
and .258 in the ALCS
a cumulative average of .320
that's not so bad
that's what i said, then the site went down last night. haha.

[hockey0001]

he batted .421 in the ALDS
and .258 in the ALCS
a cumulative average of .320
that's not so bad

Yea, he did have a good playoff overall. But i took playoff appearance to mean a series, not necessarily the whole playoff year. Whatever though, I'm done debating Ortiz vs. A-Rod since it was already done a while back.

[Scott Weber]

Yea, he did have a good playoff overall. But i took playoff appearance to mean a series, not necessarily the whole playoff year. Whatever though, I'm done debating Ortiz vs. A-Rod since it was already done a while back.
And in 2003, David Ortiz batted .095 in the 2003 ALDS. What's your point? And sine when is .258 BAD? That's like average. .095 is bad.

[Jesse2]

Good thing MVP isn't about being clutch, A-Rod would never come close to winning it then.

Nice try dude. A-Rod might not have Ortiz's clutch numbers, but people who act like he isn't more clutch than almost every other player in the game.... are huffing paint.

[hockey0001]

And in 2003, David Ortiz batted .095 in the 2003 ALDS. What's your point? And sine when is .258 BAD? That's like average. .095 is bad.

My point was that i misinterpreted the statement and took it to mean a playoff series, not the entire playoffs. .258 is bad for A-rod, pretty big drop-off from the regular season. A-Rod batting like an average player in the playoffs is not gonna help his reputation for hitting in big spots, whether that reputation is warranted or not. Ortiz batting .095 is terrible, it only gets overlooked because the Red Sox won that series and if I remember right, Ortiz had some clutch hits in games 4 and 5. Ortiz and A-rod are both great players and the MVPs of their teams. No matter who ended up with the award, there were gonna be complaints about why it should have gone the other way.

[Scott Weber]

My point was that i misinterpreted the statement and took it to mean a playoff series, not the entire playoffs. .258 is bad for A-rod, pretty big drop-off from the regular season. A-Rod batting like an average player in the playoffs is not gonna help his reputation for hitting in big spots, whether that reputation is warranted or not. Ortiz batting .095 is terrible, it only gets overlooked because the Red Sox won that series and if I remember right, Ortiz had some clutch hits in games 4 and 5. Ortiz and A-rod are both great players and the MVPs of their teams. No matter who ended up with the award, there were gonna be complaints about why it should have gone the other way.
Haha, if he had clutch hits, those were his only 2 of the the entire series. Come on. And then he batted .269 in the next series. By your logic, that's a "pretty big drop-off."

By the way, Ortiz's career average in the playoffs is .298. A-Rod's is .330. :thumbsup:

[hockey0001]

Haha, if he had clutch hits, those were his only 2 of the the entire series. Come on. And then he batted .269 in the next series. By your logic, that's a "pretty big drop-off."

By the way, Ortiz's career average in the playoffs is .298. A-Rod's is .330. :thumbsup:

I know those were probably his only two in the series. And by anyone's logic its a pretty big drop-off. Im saying that its amazing what gets remembered and what doesnt when your team wins.

[NetNerdsRevenge]

A-Rod absolutely DOMINATES Ortiz in statistics across the board, PLUS he contributes a more than solid glove and arm to the infield, where as Ortiz sits on the bench. It's most VALUABLE player, not most clutch player, and A-Rod provides a better value overall to his team.
A-rod doesnt dominant Ortiz at all. A-rod wins in Avg which doesnt mean much without production behind it. Ortiz won in RBI (production). OBP is a slight edge to A-rod and SLG is very close, A-rod a few points better. Combine the two and you get OPS, which also very close. I don’t see how he dominated Ortiz at all….maybe you could point it out to me.

Its funny how you talk about defense and how important it is, but Bonds has no trouble winning MVP. Also, Canseco, Gonzalez, and Thomas had no problem winning it (stark). He also doesnt provide better overall value to his team. Giambi had the same OPS as Manny; throw in Sheff and Matsui and thats a pretty productive middle. Better than Ortiz, Manny, Varitek, and Millar.

you also cannot just throw aside situational stats and say A-rod wins. Over the course of the season Ortiz hit .352 with runners in scoring position compared to A-rod hitting .290. A-rod had 24 more at-bats this season with RISP, but 18 fewer RBI. His OPS in these situations was .813 compared to Ortiz at 1.224. If you want to go more in depth, look at this from Jayson Stark:
In the 20 games each of their teams won by six or more runs, A-Rod hit .549, had an OPS of 1.793 and racked up 46 of his 130 RBI (35 percent). Ortiz, on the other hand, batted .277, had an OPS almost 800 points lower than A-Rod's (.999) and drove in only 33 runs (22 percent of his overall total).

But in close games (games that either went to extra innings or were decided by one or two runs in regulation), the numbers look a whole lot different.

In those games -- and each team played exactly 65 of them -- A-Rod batted only .243, had an OPS of .805 and drove in just 38 runs (29 percent). Ortiz, meanwhile, clearly tapped some mysterious force that made him even better in moments like that -- batting .321, running up an OPS of 1.116 and knocking in nearly a run a game (62 -- or 42 percent of his overall total)

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2224114

You can measure value however you like, but Ortiz' value when it was most needed, was huge. And that-- at least to me-- means MVP.

[Scott Weber]

A-rod doesnt dominant Ortiz at all. A-rod wins in Avg which doesnt mean much without production behind it. Ortiz won in RBI (production). OBP is a slight edge to A-rod and SLG is very close, A-rod a few points better. Combine the two and you get OPS, which also very close. I don’t see how he dominated Ortiz at all….maybe you could point it out to me.

Its funny how you talk about defense and how important it is, but Bonds has no trouble winning MVP. Also, Canseco, Gonzalez, and Thomas had no problem winning it (stark). He also doesnt provide better overall value to his team. Giambi had the same OPS as Manny; throw in Sheff and Matsui and thats a pretty productive middle. Better than Ortiz, Manny, Varitek, and Millar.

you also cannot just throw aside situational stats and say A-rod wins. Over the course of the season Ortiz hit .352 with runners in scoring position compared to A-rod hitting .290. A-rod had 24 more at-bats this season with RISP, but 18 fewer RBI. His OPS in these situations was .813 compared to Ortiz at 1.224. If you want to go more in depth, look at this from Jayson Stark:


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2224114

You can measure value however you like, but Ortiz' value when it was most needed, was huge. And that-- at least to me-- means MVP.
WOW, i actually got physically angry reading this, because it's obvious you have ignored everything I've said in this thread. Normally I'd tell you to go re-read it, which I suggest, but I'll give you the highlights.

1. A-Rod dominated Ortiz statistically. Hands-fucking-down. How can you not see that? Ortiz led in ONE category. ONE. Alex led in the other 8 relevant categories, some small amounts, some large. Doesn't matter. A-Rod was ahead in all but one. Yes, Ortiz is clutch in late innings, but don't act like late innings always means close games....for all you know, he could have batted .400 while they were up/down by 8 runs, and .280 when the game was close. Those stats tell something, but they don't determine all. There's no doubt he was more clutch, but it's not black and white like Starks and you make it out to be. And you know what? A-Rod had better hitters in front of him clearing off the bases so he had less people to bat in for RBIs.

You can't be serious about the defense comment. I adressed the starks article DIRECTLY earlier on, and how I said he was an idiot - he .... never mind. please go read my post earlier on this page, it addresses everything i have to say here. and also, you might want to read the 2nd half of Stark's case - it talks about how Alex had a great season defensively, which added VALUE to his team, where as Ortiz sat his ass on the bench...contributing nothing...and being a liability and detriment to the team on the basepaths (slow as hell). Yes, it's offense first and other factors 2nd, but in a close race like it was this year, you have to turn to something to differentiate the two...and the fact is that Ortiz simply did nothing for his team on the field. Even mediocre fielders like bonds still got put-outs and provided a reliable glove.


p.s. - sorry in advance for getting way heated, but dude, you gotta read my points before arguing against me, and at least acknowledge them. it is so frustrating to hear your points ignored.

[underthetalking]

Before I say this, I want to state that I am a HUGE Yankees fan...
But I think Ortiz should have won the MVP. Only because every time (and seriously EVERY TIME) Ortiz was at the plate, he made something happen. Esspecially with RISP. Having runners on base only made him better. And having it be when the team was down, or had the opportunity to take the lead, he delivered EVERY TIME. A-Rod had a fantastic year. Led league in Home Runs, Runs, and Slugging Percentage, not to mention made only 12 errors at a position which he started playing less than a year ago (IMO he should have won the Gold Glove). BUT A-Rod also led the Yankees in Strikeouts and he was up there in runners left on base. And I don't think a team's Most VALUABLE Player should lead them in Strikeouts or runners in scoring position. A-Rod helped the Yankees win a lot of games, but Ortiz basically accounts for about half of the Red Sox wins this season. That is why Ortiz should be the AL MVP. But the baseball writer's are old fashioned and took into account A-Rod's defensive skills. But I still think Ortiz is more valuable for the Sox than A-Rod is for the Yankees.

[NetNerdsRevenge]

WOW, i actually got physically angry reading this, because it's obvious you have ignored everything I've said in this thread. Normally I'd tell you to go re-read it, which I suggest, but I'll give you the highlights.

1. A-Rod dominated Ortiz statistically. Hands-fucking-down. How can you not see that? Ortiz led in ONE category. ONE. Alex led in the other 8 relevant categories, some small amounts, some large. Doesn't matter. A-Rod was ahead in all but one. Yes, Ortiz is clutch in late innings, but don't act like late innings always means close games....for all you know, he could have batted .400 while they were up/down by 8 runs, and .280 when the game was close. Those stats tell something, but they don't determine all. There's no doubt he was more clutch, but it's not black and white like Starks and you make it out to be. And you know what? A-Rod had better hitters in front of him clearing off the bases so he had less people to bat in for RBIs.

You can't be serious about the defense comment. I adressed the starks article DIRECTLY earlier on, and how I said he was an idiot - he .... never mind. please go read my post earlier on this page, it addresses everything i have to say here. and also, you might want to read the 2nd half of Stark's case - it talks about how Alex had a great season defensively, which added VALUE to his team, where as Ortiz sat his ass on the bench...contributing nothing...and being a liability and detriment to the team on the basepaths (slow as hell). Yes, it's offense first and other factors 2nd, but in a close race like it was this year, you have to turn to something to differentiate the two...and the fact is that Ortiz simply did nothing for his team on the field. Even mediocre fielders like bonds still got put-outs and provided a reliable glove.


p.s. - sorry in advance for getting way heated, but dude, you gotta read my points before arguing against me, and at least acknowledge them. it is so frustrating to hear your points ignored.
Sorry, the site was down so I didnt feel like going through every page. Maybe you shouldn't get angry...this is a debate between two red sox fans, it might do you good to take deep breaths.

Now, I asked you to tell me how A-rod dominated Ortiz and you didnt. Do you realize the difference between their OBP's is actually smaller than it looks? Small difference in categories like avg, obp, slg, and ops can basically be a tie. Its like a .310 hitter opposed to a .300 hitter. The guy leads the other by 10 points, but in the grand scheme of things thats only 1 or 2 extra hits. Also, leading another buy a few extra points is not dominant. maybe you could present your information to why you think this way instead of just saying it? You addressed late innings, but not RISP or close/blowout games. In blowout games, Ortiz didnt hit as well, which could dispel your ".400 in a 8 run game" theory. A-rod usually batted 3rd, 4th. Thats prime position to rack up RBI. You cant say he batted behind better hitters. Jeter didn't knock himself in and whoever the yanks had hitting second didnt either. All you have before him was usually Sheffield. Are you telling me Sheffield took all those extra RBI's? Still doesnt account for all the chances he had with RISP.

Also, me and Hockey have both talked about A-rods defense--read it. I've said it before and ill say it again, defense is overrated. Manny is a terrible fielder by all defensive metric standards, but yet still How many routine plays are there in a game that pad a persons FP? Take out A-rod at third and someone else can fill in just as well. If they published UZR ratings I would show you those, but because the person stopped I will wait till nov. 30th, when hardball times comes out, to talk about defense. Ortiz could of easily played first base and had put outs. Why punish a guy who has no control over where his manager sticks him.

Why do you think Ortiz is a bad base runner besides the fact that he's slow? I've seen him make some smart decisions hustling into second or third. Because he is slow and is unable to steal a base or tag on shallow balls doesnt make him a bad base runner. Its smart, heads up base running, not just speed that makes people bad or good.

[Scott Weber]

wrong on so many accounts. i have to go right now, but i'll discuss this when I get back.

[Spicoli hey bud]

Sorry, the site was down so I didnt feel like going through every page. Maybe you shouldn't get angry...this is a debate between two red sox fans, it might do you good to take deep breaths.

Now, I asked you to tell me how A-rod dominated Ortiz and you didnt. Do you realize the difference between their OBP's is actually smaller than it looks? Small difference in categories like avg, obp, slg, and ops can basically be a tie. Its like a .310 hitter opposed to a .300 hitter. The guy leads the other by 10 points, but in the grand scheme of things thats only 1 or 2 extra hits. Also, leading another buy a few extra points is not dominant. maybe you could present your information to why you think this way instead of just saying it? You addressed late innings, but not RISP or close/blowout games. In blowout games, Ortiz didnt hit as well, which could dispel your ".400 in a 8 run game" theory. A-rod usually batted 3rd, 4th. Thats prime position to rack up RBI. You cant say he batted behind better hitters. Jeter didn't knock himself in and whoever the yanks had hitting second didnt either. All you have before him was usually Sheffield. Are you telling me Sheffield took all those extra RBI's? Still doesnt account for all the chances he had with RISP.

Also, me and Hockey have both talked about A-rods defense--read it. I've said it before and ill say it again, defense is overrated. Manny is a terrible fielder by all defensive metric standards, but yet still How many routine plays are there in a game that pad a persons FP? Take out A-rod at third and someone else can fill in just as well. If they published UZR ratings I would show you those, but because the person stopped I will wait till nov. 30th, when hardball times comes out, to talk about defense. Ortiz could of easily played first base and had put outs. Why punish a guy who has no control over where his manager sticks him.

Why do you think Ortiz is a bad base runner besides the fact that he's slow? I've seen him make some smart decisions hustling into second or third. Because he is slow and is unable to steal a base or tag on shallow balls doesnt make him a bad base runner. Its smart, heads up base running, not just speed that makes people bad or good.
coming from a person with yanks should die in their sig, it becomes hard to take you seriously. Now I understand that since I am a Yankee fan, I may have a yankee bias, which I try to keep to a minimum. But you seem to dislike ARod for alterior reasons. And the difference between a .300 and a .300 hitter is much more significant than 1 or 2 hits.

[Caleb Cattivera]

ill admit ive only read the last page and a half...but why you guys are arguing playoff statistics is beyond me...when the mvp is voted upon...its all prior to october.

now...mvp...a rod won. deservingly so. only ONE dh has ever won an mvp award, that being don baylor in 1979. the assoicated press gives out an award for DH of the year. mvp goes both ways...offense and defense...with ortiz not playing the defensive side of the ball, that hurt his chances of winning. the voters take ALL things into consideration...not just the batting.

[Scott Weber]

ill admit ive only read the last page and a half...but why you guys are arguing playoff statistics is beyond me...when the mvp is voted upon...its all prior to october.

now...mvp...a rod won. deservingly so. only ONE dh has ever won an mvp award, that being don baylor in 1979. the assoicated press gives out an award for DH of the year. mvp goes both ways...offense and defense...with ortiz not playing the defensive side of the ball, that hurt his chances of winning. the voters take ALL things into consideration...not just the batting.
yes. people need to stop taking Jason Stark's opinion as pure gold and truth.

[Drew Beringer]

yes. people need to stop taking Jason Stark's opinion as pure gold and truth.

In Gammons I trust.

[NetNerdsRevenge]

coming from a person with yanks should die in their sig, it becomes hard to take you seriously. Now I understand that since I am a Yankee fan, I may have a yankee bias, which I try to keep to a minimum. But you seem to dislike ARod for alterior reasons. And the difference between a .300 and a .300 hitter is much more significant than 1 or 2 hits.
Dont let the sig distract you. Im giving you stats which anyone can look at and dissect. be my guest if you wish to do the same. please tell me, what is the big difference between a .300 hitter and a .310?

wrong on so many accounts. i have to go right now, but i'll discuss this when I get back.
Could you please add where A-rod dominated Ortiz in your rebuttal.

[crit]

In Gammons I trust.

amen.

[Spicoli hey bud]

Dont let the sig distract you. Im giving you stats which anyone can look at and dissect. be my guest if you wish to do the same. please tell me, what is the big difference between a .300 hitter and a .310? .
In a 600 at bat season, about 11 or 12 hits
So in order for someone to raise their average from .300 to .310 at the end of a season, he would have to go 12 for 12. Good luck.

[Scott Weber]

Dont let the sig distract you. Im giving you stats which anyone can look at and dissect. be my guest if you wish to do the same. please tell me, what is the big difference between a .300 hitter and a .310?


Could you please add where A-rod dominated Ortiz in your rebuttal.
you know what, i'm tired, and it's been said, several times, so once again i will direct you to my other posts in this thread, which you neglected to read in the first place.

I told you. besides the average...
.321 vs. .300

a-rod leads in all other major statistical categories. not to mention the great fielding, arm, and speed on the basepaths.

[underthetalking]

you know what, i'm tired, and it's been said, several times, so once again i will direct you to my other posts in this thread, which you neglected to read in the first place.

I told you. besides the average...
.321 vs. .300

a-rod leads in all other major statistical categories. not to mention the great fielding, arm, and speed on the basepaths.

Not to mention his team in strikeouts.

[Scott Weber]

Not to mention his team in strikeouts.
haha, ortiz had 124. i wouldn't be talking. both are bad.

[Spicoli hey bud]

Not to mention his team in strikeouts.
what an excellent statistic
I'd much rather have Placido Polanco.
He only struck out 25 times so he must be the better ballplayer

[NetNerdsRevenge]

In a 600 at bat season, about 11 or 12 hits
So in order for someone to raise their average from .300 to .310 at the end of a season, he would have to go 12 for 12. Good luck.
Actually, its not. Im similar # of at bats Ortiz and A-rod are 14 hits apart. thats with a .300 and .320 BA. And even then, 14 more hits over a course of 162 games, but with less RBI, and similar power numbers, doesn't mean much.

[underthetalking]

I don't consider leading your team in strikeouts and leaving lots of men on base valuable. But thats just me. A-Rod had a great year offensively. But those two stats just jump out at me as major reasons on why he shouldn't have won. But then again, I'm a Yankee fan. So what do I know?

[Spicoli hey bud]

Actually, its not. Im similar # of at bats Ortiz and A-rod are 14 hits apart. thats with a .300 and .320 BA. And even then, 14 more hits over a course of 162 games, but with less RBI, and similar power numbers, doesn't mean much.
14 more hits is not very easy to come by in majoy league baseball
didn't this start by a claim that they only had a 1 or 2 hit difference?

[Scott Weber]

I don't consider leading your team in strikeouts and leaving lots of men on base valuable. But thats just me. A-Rod had a great year offensively. But those two stats just jump out at me as major reasons on why he shouldn't have won. But then again, I'm a Yankee fan. So what do I know?
Well, most Yankee fans don't know anything, even about their own team, so I can't say I'm surpised.

[Caleb Cattivera]

I don't consider leading your team in strikeouts and leaving lots of men on base valuable. But thats just me. A-Rod had a great year offensively. But those two stats just jump out at me as major reasons on why he shouldn't have won. But then again, I'm a Yankee fan. So what do I know?

this could be the lamest argument of the night. anyone agree?

[Spicoli hey bud]

this could be the lamest argument of the night. anyone agree?:bball:

[underthetalking]

Ok pay him to strike out over 120 times in a season. Be my guest. I'd rather have Scott Brosius anyway.

[hockey0001]

Ok pay him to strike out over 120 times in a season. Be my guest. I'd rather have Scott Brosius anyway.


You have to be joking, right?

[Scott Weber]

Ok pay him to strike out over 120 times in a season. Be my guest. I'd rather have Scott Brosius anyway.
haha, you're ridiculous. get out. Griffey did that in 2 straight seasons when he hit 56 homers each.

[Caleb Cattivera]

I don't consider leading your team in strikeouts and leaving lots of men on base valuable. But thats just me. A-Rod had a great year offensively. But those two stats just jump out at me as major reasons on why he shouldn't have won. But then again, I'm a Yankee fan. So what do I know?

lets look at history...do you know who has the most strikeouts in history? reggie jackson. did you know that 8 of the top 20 in career strikeouts are in the hall of fame?

reggie, stargell, schmidt, perez, brock, mantle, killebrew, winfield. five of them won and mvp award in their careers. four others, who arent in the hall of fame, sosa, murphy, henderson, canseco also in the top 20 in strikeouts have mvp's under their belt. this argument is irrelevant. next.

[underthetalking]

lets look at history...do you know who has the most strikeouts in history? reggie jackson. did you know that 8 of the top 20 in career strikeouts are in the hall of fame?

reggie, stargell, schmidt, perez, brock, mantle, killebrew, winfield. five of them won and mvp award in their careers. four others, who arent in the hall of fame, sosa, murphy, henderson, canseco also in the top 20 in strikeouts have mvp's under their belt. this argument is irrelevant. next.


... seriously I'm not even mad. Well done. I retract anything I said before. You just totally shit on my argument. Kudos to you. I'm not even being sarcastic. That was impressive.

[Scott Weber]

... seriously I'm not even mad. Well done. I retract anything I said before. You just totally shit on my argument. Kudos to you. I'm not even being sarcastic. That was impressive.
hahaha, that was amazing.

[Spicoli hey bud]

... seriously I'm not even mad. Well done. I retract anything I said before. You just totally shit on my argument. Kudos to you. I'm not even being sarcastic. That was impressive.
You mean he shat on your argument?

[underthetalking]

I think I'm just going to sit back and watch how this one turns out. Its like Around the Horn and PTI at 230 at night. I love this shit.

[underthetalking]

You mean he shat on your argument?

Twice.

[Caleb Cattivera]

Twice.

haha at least you admit...i know of a few people who wouldve came up with some lame ass excuse...you took that one like a man, welcome to the sports forum, youll have some ownage of your own sometime :)

[underthetalking]

haha at least you admit...i know of a few people who wouldve came up with some lame ass excuse...you took that one like a man, welcome to the sports forum, youll have some ownage of your own sometime :)

Oh definitely. When it comes to sports, I'll admit it when I get completely pwned. Tonight i learned to not mess with the big guns. But I'll be back when the hot stoving begins.

Which reminds me... Hideki Matsui was resigned to a four-year deal by the Yankees and I could not be happier.

[NetNerdsRevenge]

you know what, i'm tired, and it's been said, several times, so once again i will direct you to my other posts in this thread, which you neglected to read in the first place.

I told you. besides the average...
.321 vs. .300

a-rod leads in all other major statistical categories. not to mention the great fielding, arm, and speed on the basepaths.
And I will direct you to my rebuttal to spicoli.

I read your posts, I got them and I spoke on them, but you have yet to provide me with any information as to how A-rod dominated. please tell me, I really want to know. Also, you must of not read what I wrote about defense. Its really the 3rd or 4th most important thing in the game. Thats behind both hitting and pitching which dominate. The reason defense is overrated is because we watch someone make a "web gem" and say "wow he is a great fielder", but maybe he isnt. Maybe someone with better range makes the same play look routine. Maybe that nice catch provided an out, but can the person who caught it provide pop in his bat? Do you at least see what im saying?

I want to talk about OBP because you haven't given me the chance yet and its burning.

A-rod, in 715 PA's, had an obp of .421. Ortiz, in 713 PA's, had an obp of .397. Now, obp is every time the batter reached (at least) first base successfully; either on a base hit, walk, or hbp. In this case, A-rod had 194 hits, 91 bb, and 16 hbp. Ortiz had 180 hits, 102 bb, and 1 hpb. walks can be credited to the batter for being patient, taking pitches, and fouling off pitches, working the count to their favor. However, hbp is totally in the hands of the pitcher. yes, when walking a batter, he could be totally wild, but credit the hitter for not pulling a vlad and swinging at anything.

So then, what happens when you take away hbp? A-rod drops to 285 times successfully reaching base. Ortiz sits at 282. divide each by their total number of PA's and you get A-rods new obp to be .398, and Ortiz' to be .395. So in an atmosphere the hitter can control (I guess I should take away IBB then too, but A-rod at 8 and Ortiz at 9, it wont change anyting to dramatically) Ortiz and A-rod has very very very similar OBP's

Yes, i know i completely fucked with the stat, but its what i like to do, live with it.

Also, strikes out mean nothing. The 2004 red sox were the second easiest team in American League history to strike out and still scored the most runs. The 2002 yankees stuck out 1,171 times, but managed, somehow, to be the number 1 offense in the AL.

14 more hits is not very easy to come by in majoy league baseball
didn't this start by a claim that they only had a 1 or 2 hit difference?[
Yes, it did, but what I meant to say was 1 or 2 hits over a months time. Sorry, I was really basing it off the fact that a .260 hitter compared to a .300+ hitter is 1 to 2 hits over a week or two in time. but if the .260 hitter has a better slg% or obp, the .260 hitter is much more valuable. yes, 14 hits is hard to come by, but whats 14 hits if you produce nothing out of them? yes he gets on base, but even then he only socred 5 more runs than Ortiz.

[Spicoli hey bud]

And I will direct you to my rebuttal to spicoli.

I read your posts, I got them and I spoke on them, but you have yet to provide me with any information as to how A-rod dominated. please tell me, I really want to know. Also, you must of not read what I wrote about defense. Its really the 3rd or 4th most important thing in the game. Thats behind both hitting and pitching which dominate. The reason defense is overrated is because we watch someone make a "web gem" and say "wow he is a great fielder", but maybe he isnt. Maybe someone with better range makes the same play look routine. Maybe that nice catch provided an out, but can the person who caught it provide pop in his bat? Do you at least see what im saying?

I want to talk about OBP because you haven't given me the chance yet and its burning.

A-rod, in 715 PA's, had an obp of .421. Ortiz, in 713 PA's, had an obp of .397. Now, obp is every time the batter reached (at least) first base successfully; either on a base hit, walk, or hbp. In this case, A-rod had 194 hits, 91 bb, and 16 hbp. Ortiz had 180 hits, 102 bb, and 1 hpb. walks can be credited to the batter for being patient, taking pitches, and fouling off pitches, working the count to their favor. However, hbp is totally in the hands of the pitcher. yes, when walking a batter, he could be totally wild, but credit the hitter for not pulling a vlad and swinging at anything.

So then, what happens when you take away hbp? A-rod drops to 285 times successfully reaching base. Ortiz sits at 282. divide each by their total number of PA's and you get A-rods new obp to be .398, and Ortiz' to be .395. So in an atmosphere the hitter can control (I guess I should take away IBB then too, but A-rod at 8 and Ortiz at 9, it wont change anyting to dramatically) Ortiz and A-rod has very very very similar OBP's

Yes, i know i completely fucked with the stat, but its what i like to do, live with it.

Also, strikes out mean nothing. The 2004 red sox were the second easiest team in American League history to strike out and still scored the most runs. The 2002 yankees stuck out 1,171 times, but managed, somehow, to be the number 1 offense in the AL.

14 more hits is not very easy to come by in majoy league baseball
didn't this start by a claim that they only had a 1 or 2 hit difference?
Yes, it did, but what I meant to say was 1 or 2 hits over a months time. Sorry, I was really basing it off the fact that a .260 hitter compared to a .300+ hitter is 1 to 2 hits over a week or two in time. but if the .260 hitter has a better slg% or obp, the .260 hitter is much more valuable. yes, 14 hits is hard to come by, but whats 14 hits if you produce nothing out of them? yes he gets on base, but even then he only socred 5 more runs than Ortiz.
If you're going to blame HBP soley on the pitcher, then you should do the same with BB. In which case the two cancel each other out for the most part.
(fixed that quote for you)

[NetNerdsRevenge]

Ya, I know, but with BB the hitter at least has some control over it. A more patient hitter will draw more walks. Of course a wild pitcher is going to drive up the walk totals for some people, but hpb is something a hitter (unless he has cat like reflexes) cannot avoid.

but like i said, i fucked with the stat because its better than working on calculus or econ.

[Scott Weber]

haha at least you admit...i know of a few people who wouldve came up with some lame ass excuse...you took that one like a man, welcome to the sports forum, youll have some ownage of your own sometime :)
b e L I E v e?

[weezer182]

b e L I E v e?hahahaha

[Scott Weber]

hahahaha
haha, i want that kid to look at vince carter's stats this year. haha

[weezer182]

haha, i want that kid to look at vince carter's stats this year. haha i cant stand vince carter he doesnt make a team that much better

[NetNerdsRevenge]

baseball please.

[Scott Weber]

baseball please.
here's some poop.

go eat it.

[IAmNietzche]

here's some poop.

go eat it.
i agreed with you for the most part throughout this entire argument for once... and was beginning to respect you...
:shake:

[Caleb Cattivera]

here's some poop.

go eat it.

yeah...

um...

go eat...it!