Freedom Is An Illusion

[Jake Wallace]

Check out the mp3 "Camilo" from State Radio (http://www.stateradio.com), it's on the main page of their site. The song is about a US soldier who applied for conscientious objector status after returning from Iraq and was then thrown in jail by the government. The track is from their upcoming album, Us Against The Crown, which is coming on Ruff Shod Records.

[rossman692]

this band has Chad from Dispatch. They're a a great. Saw them at Irving Plaza last spring. check out and support their stuff.

[thesego211]

somehow i doubt that's the whole story...

[FOBguy]

Oh come on. The last thing that we need is another song about a bands distaste with politics.

[Jason Tate]

Oh come on. The last thing that we need is another song about a bands distaste with politics.
I'd argue the opposite.

[Jason Tate]

somehow i doubt that's the whole story...
http://www.freecamilo.org/

[BrandNew20]

I saw this band live at a coffee shop in Worcester about a year ago, pretty good band.

[Never Last]

Um, so what if he was sent to prison. It's always been the law that if you're in the army and they ask you to go war and you refuse, you can be (or are) sent to prison. Anyone that was drafted back in WWII and didn't want to go went to jail also I believe.

[davric]

How can you apply for conscientious objector status after you've already willingly joined the army and gone to war? I was under the impression that this was used when the draft was active, and war went against certain people's religious beliefs.

[thejetstolehome]

Oh come on. The last thing that we need is another song about a bands distaste with politics.

not true at all....it'd be nice to have more bands speak their minds/have a more of a political voice these days

[DroppedUrPocket]

Oh come on. The last thing that we need is another song about a bands distaste with politics.

Wow.

[Dr. Balls]

I love conspiracy theories! They are so milfing funny!
- Dr. Balls

[Jason Tate]

Um, so what if he was sent to prison. It's always been the law that if you're in the army and they ask you to go war and you refuse, you can be (or are) sent to prison. Anyone that was drafted back in WWII and didn't want to go went to jail also I believe.
He did go to war, he didn't refuse. It was after he saw what was really going on over there he decided he couldn't support or do those things anymore and asked to be discharged.

[thispostscript]

He signed the agreement to serve his country with the armed forces, you can't just decide you dont want to fulfill your service.

[thispostscript]

Yea he did serve a tour of duty, but was assigned to do another one...that's part of the contract, it sucks he decided he didn't want to fight for the cause but that's the agreement.

[Jason Tate]

He signed the agreement to serve his country with the armed forces, you can't just decide you dont want to fulfill your service.
I guess technically you could go into the national guard and then disappear (ie. not show up for a few years), but after that you're only awarded the Commander and Chief of all the armed forces ... nothing major or anything.

Anyways, for those wanting the facts about C.O status, read here (http://www.sss.gov/FSconsobj.htm).

[thispostscript]

I guess technically you could go into the national guard and then disappear (ie. not show up for a few years), but after that you're only awarded the Commander and Chief of all the armed forces ... nothing major or anything.

What does this have to do with Bush's past? Everything always seems to comeback to that though these days.

[Jason Tate]

What does this have to do with Bush's past? Everything always seems to comeback to that though these days.
Reasons it has to do with Bush's past:

1) He sent us over there.
2) He's the head of the armed forces.
3) It's hypocritical to jail a man for doing something he wouldn't of had to do if his parents were rich enough to get him out of it.

[thispostscript]

Reasons it has to do with Bush's past:

1) He sent us over there.
2) He's the head of the armed forces.
3) It's hypocritical to jail a man for doing something he wouldn't of had to do if his parents were rich enough to get him out of it.

I am honestly not well informed on Bush's military past besides what i hear, but when a soldier signs that agreement they know the situations they could very well face and i'm sure the majority of the soldiers who have returned for their 2 week break don't necessarily want to go back into that horrible atmosphere but they have a responsibility too and they go forth as much as they probably dont want too. Why should this guy get the freedom from finishing his service unlike everyone else?

[Jason Tate]

I am honestly not well informed on Bush's military past besides what i hear, but when a soldier signs that agreement they know the situations they could very well face and i'm sure the majority of the soldiers who have returned for their 2 week break don't necessarily want to go back into that horrible atmosphere but they have a responsibility too and they go forth as much as they probably dont want too. Why should this guy get the freedom from finishing his service unlike everyone else?
I'm not saying he should be "free" of it, I'd say in a sitation like his he should be given the same treatment as a C.O:

Conscientious Objectors opposed to serving in the military will be placed in the Selective Service Alternative Service Program. This program attempts to match COs with local employers. Many types of jobs are available, however the job must be deemed to make a meaningful contribution to the maintenance of the national health, safety, and interest. Examples of Alternative Service are jobs in:


conservation
caring for the very young or very old
education
health careLength of service in the program will equal the amount of time a man would have served in the military, usually 24 months.

Of course, all of this opens up the age old debate on forcing a man into war (and therefore most of the time, historically, forcing the poor into war).

[thispostscript]

I'm not saying he should be "free" of it, I'd say in a sitation like his he should be given the same treatment as a C.O:

Conscientious Objectors opposed to serving in the military will be placed in the Selective Service Alternative Service Program. This program attempts to match COs with local employers. Many types of jobs are available, however the job must be deemed to make a meaningful contribution to the maintenance of the national health, safety, and interest. Examples of Alternative Service are jobs in:

conservation
caring for the very young or very old
education
health careLength of service in the program will equal the amount of time a man would have served in the military, usually 24 months.

Of course, all of this opens up the age old debate on forcing a man into war (and therefore most of the time, historically, forcing the poor into war).

Hmm...is there some clause in the initial agreement that says anyone can file for C.O status after a certain point?

[Jason Tate]

Hmm...is there some clause in the initial agreement that says anyone can file for C.O status after a certain point?
I believe so, because he had already begun the process and filed for CO status. However, none of that information was allowed in court for his "dessertion" hearing. I'll call my marine buddy later to find out for sure.

[JOJOFACE]

He signed the agreement to serve his country with the armed forces, you can't just decide you dont want to fulfill your service.
Amen.

[thispostscript]

I believe so, because he had already begun the process and filed for CO status. However, none of that information was allowed in court for his "dessertion" hearing. I'll call my marine buddy later to find out for sure.

I'm trying to read up on C.O status...it seems that you have very little time to register for it, but it just seems that there is more too it than just signing up for this status and being able to be reassigned or else i'm sure plenty of soldiers just wouldn't go back

[GAD_guy]

He signed the agreement to serve his country with the armed forces, you can't just decide you dont want to fulfill your service.

that's a fucking dumb thing to say. obviously he went to iraq beliving that the war was just and served a legitimate purpose. after a while, he realized it was all bullshit. our president and his staff tooks oaths promising not to lie to the american public only to decide that they didn't feel like upholding them. it they can send us to war on false pretenses, why can't a man refuse to continue the war when notified that all the reasons for his being there were false?

[JustinQTN]

Being in the Army myself I may be able to comment on some of this. From what I gathered he was still on duty in a combat zone, however his unit didn't need him at the moment so they allowed him to take leave. While on leave, and still under contract to the military, he decided to leave; therefore technically he went AWOL.
Putting opinions about the president aside my real problem with his disertion is his lack of consideration for the other men in his unit. As a Sgt. he has a number of young privates (read 18-19 year old) and specialists under his control in combat. These young soldiers look up to him for guidance and leadership, and he just bailed on them.
I am slated to go to Iraq in October, and I'm a Lieutennant. I will have around 100 people under me and regardless of how much horrible stuff I see over there there is no way I am abandoning my soldiers. The legal issues of this case really mean nothing in perspective to his desertion of his men.

[thispostscript]

that's a fucking dumb thing to say. obviously he went to iraq beliving that the war was just and served a legitimate purpose. after a while, he realized it was all bullshit. our president and his staff tooks oaths promising not to lie to the american public only to decide that they didn't feel like upholding them. it they can send us to war on false pretenses, why can't a man refuse to continue the war when notified that all the reasons for his being there were false?

Yea but why is he so different from every other soldier? I'm sure a very high majority of them return for their 2 week break and certainly don't want to go back...who the hell would want too? but they do, cuz it's the oath they took and the responsibility they have to fulfill. As for our executive branch, I'm not gonna sit here and deny that certain things dont look fishy, you'd have to be an idiot to not agree but we dont see all the information you must remember...it's easy for us to sit back and criticize but there's reasons the CIA/government doesn't share inside info...all i'm saying is there's alot information that we will never know...which can go both ways.

[JustinQTN]

that's a fucking dumb thing to say. obviously he went to iraq beliving that the war was just and served a legitimate purpose. after a while, he realized it was all bullshit. our president and his staff tooks oaths promising not to lie to the american public only to decide that they didn't feel like upholding them. it they can send us to war on false pretenses, why can't a man refuse to continue the war when notified that all the reasons for his being there were false?

When you take your oath into the military you swear to obey the orders of the officers placed above you, and unfortunately whether we like it or not, the guy in charge is President Bush. In your corporate job, you can't choose your boss, its the same with the military. Our job is just a little more hardcore than sitting behind a desk. The president of your corporation could ask you to do things that you do not agree with, but you do them anyway, its the same way with the military.

[GAD_guy]

Yea but why is he so different from every other soldier? I'm sure a very high majority of them return for their 2 week break and certainly don't want to go back...who the hell would want too? but they do, cuz it's the oath they took and the responsibility they have to fulfill. As for our executive branch, I'm not gonna sit here and deny that certain things dont look fishy, you'd have to be an idiot to not agree but we dont see all the information you must remember...it's easy for us to sit back and criticize but there's reasons the CIA/government doesn't share inside info...all i'm saying is there's alot information that we will never know...which can go both ways.

right....i can see how it could go both ways on this issue. on one hand, a man should have the right not to be in a situation in which innocent civilians are being slaughtered on a daily basis. on the other, the army obviously has to have some way to prevent soldiers from just quitting whenever they feel like it. i guess i just wish we hadn't gone in the first place.

[JustinQTN]

Yea but why is he so different from every other soldier? I'm sure a very high majority of them return for their 2 week break and certainly don't want to go back...who the hell would want too? but they do, cuz it's the oath they took and the responsibility they have to fulfill. As for our executive branch, I'm not gonna sit here and deny that certain things dont look fishy, you'd have to be an idiot to not agree but we dont see all the information you must remember...it's easy for us to sit back and criticize but there's reasons the CIA/government doesn't share inside info...all i'm saying is there's alot information that we will never know...which can go both ways.

Also, he's very lucky he got a 2 week break, I know a lot of guys who are on their third rotation and never got a break while in Iraq, they were constantly working for a year or more.

[GAD_guy]

When you take your oath into the military you swear to obey the orders of the officers placed above you, and unfortunately whether we like it or not, the guy in charge is President Bush. In your corporate job, you can't choose your boss, its the same with the military. Our job is just a little more hardcore than sitting behind a desk. The president of your corporation could ask you to do things that you do not agree with, but you do them anyway, its the same way with the military.

yeah. it's a tough situation. don't get me wrong, i don't regard this guy as a victim. i mean, no matter how poor i happened to be, i would never compromise my ideals to join any military in any form. if he was truly against war he would have found a way to survive that didn't involve the possibility of fighting an unjust war.

[Never Last]

He did go to war, he didn't refuse. It was after he saw what was really going on over there he decided he couldn't support or do those things anymore and asked to be discharged.

I see where you're coming from. But like another person has stated, I'm sure everyone would want to do this once they got back from war. In a case like this, if he did apply for the C.O. and should've been approved, then I can see why it's a big deal. But I'm sure there is a lot more to do it then we know.

[JustinQTN]

right....i can see how it could go both ways on this issue. on one hand, a man should have the right not to be in a situation in which innocent civilians are being slaughtered on a daily basis. on the other, the army obviously has to have some way to prevent soldiers from just quitting whenever they feel like it. i guess i just wish we hadn't gone in the first place.

I hope your talking about civilians being hurt by the insurgents because the Army has taken more measures to protect civilians than in any war ever. I've been in three weeks of classes on Iraqi culture and dealing with civilians; and so has every soldier who goes over there. Any slaughtering of innocent civilians by US forces is a leadership failure, plain and simple.

[nerogtr]

bands have a voice, and they should to use it. any oppurtunity to reach large masses of people with a message should not be passed up.

He signed the agreement to serve his country with the armed forces, you can't just decide you dont want to fulfill your service.

i disagree. its not like he "chickened out" or something. He got out there and realized the fight was not in his heart. I can empathize with that.

[thispostscript]

bands have a voice, and they should to use it. any oppurtunity to reach large masses of people with a message should not be passed up.



i disagree. its not like he "chickened out" or something. He got out there and realized the fight was not in his heart. I can empathize with that.

Yea i'm not denying that, many people can understand someone not wanting to go back and fight or whatever the case may be....but that is the responsibility and oath they took..i'm sure plenty of soldiers don't want to go back but they do.

[Billy]

When you take your oath into the military you swear to obey the orders of the officers placed above you, and unfortunately whether we like it or not, the guy in charge is President Bush. In your corporate job, you can't choose your boss, its the same with the military. Our job is just a little more hardcore than sitting behind a desk. The president of your corporation could ask you to do things that you do not agree with, but you do them anyway, its the same way with the military.You bring a great point than just being whatever Bush sucks. When I was in the military they sent me to England for the war a week before it started and we completely believed that we were there for a good reason. But now as more stuff has come out I see it differently and don't believe we should have gone yet we can't just up and leave. When my time came to re-enlist I decided not to because I didn't agree with what we were doing although if I was sent to Iraq I would have done my job even though I didn't agree with it because it is something that you accept when joining the military. One of them giving up a lot of freedoms to do such a thing and accept tons of new laws on top of what we already have. On another note I think bands writing songs about war or politics in general is far more important than writing about how so and so's GF dicked them over. Even though the listener may not agree you have to give credit that they are speaking on what their feelings and beliefs about a certain issue.

[thesego211]

He did go to war, he didn't refuse. It was after he saw what was really going on over there he decided he couldn't support or do those things anymore and asked to be discharged.
did he think war was going to be really fun? of course it's awful, its the hardest thing for human beings to go through. but he signed up, and the military paid for his education. he has every right to refuse to fight, and the US has every right to imprison him for doing so.

[thesego211]

Reasons it has to do with Bush's past:

1) He sent us over there.
2) He's the head of the armed forces.
3) It's hypocritical to jail a man for doing something he wouldn't of had to do if his parents were rich enough to get him out of it.
you are an idiot tate. give me a break. i'm so tired of this rhetoric. do you know that there is a difference between being in the national guard and being in the military? we get it tate, you hate bush, but try to look at this objectively for once.

[JustinQTN]

you are an idiot tate. give me a break. i'm so tired of this rhetoric. do you know that there is a difference between being in the national guard and being in the military? we get it tate, you hate bush, but try to look at this objectively for once.

Well back then there was a difference between the guard and the regular army, however that has completely changed, there are almost as many guard units in Iraq as active duty units. They are all expected to do the same duties because we're all soldiers. It kinda sucks for those guys who went to the guard thinking they wouldn't be deployed, but thats what happens when we're at war.
Back in the day the guard was considered the way to get out of being drafted, now its almost like being active duty except you get 2 years off between tours instead of being deployed every year to six months.

[drivethru770]

Hmmmm.....Dispatch....I miss them so.

[InaGreendase]

The president of your corporation could ask you to do things that you do not agree with, but you do them anyway, its the same way with the military.

Uhh, apparently it's not the same way at all. If your boss tells you to do something you don't agree with, you're more than free to quit your job, while the very subject of this thread is that you AREN'T allowed to quit that military "job"...

[JustinQTN]

Uhh, apparently it's not the same way at all. If your boss tells you to do something you don't agree with, you're more than free to quit your job, while the very subject of this thread is that you AREN'T allowed to quit that military "job"...

I understand that, the military is one of the few professions where your boss changes every couple of years. Also, if you have a job where you are under contract you may be subject to legal repercussions if you quit, just like being under a military comtract. You can quit the military, but you're gonna be subject to legal actions, as this guy found out.