Looks like we're not leaving Iraq anytime soon [Archive]

Cal Smith

11/19/05, 10:20 AM

"mission accomplished" refered to the invasion of Iraq.

I wonder why people have a hard concept with that? It's not as if when they put that banner up they were getting ready to pull troops out then because the "mission was accomplished".

Also did you really expect Bush to say he was going to withdrawl troops now.............?

Cal Smith

11/19/05, 10:22 AM

I wasn't for this war in the beginning but since we are there we have to finish what we started.

I understand this position 110% more than I do the idea of withdrawling troops now. I honestly don't see how withdrawling troops now benefits anyone besides the terrorists conducting attacks.

youcomebeforeyo

11/19/05, 11:06 AM

You could argue either way you're screwed. If you withdraw Iraq it will decend into chaos and you could easily make a fertile ground for the next generation of terrorists who were formelly pro us but them abandoning them could change their opinions (Remember the US withdrawl in 92 abandoned the Shi'ites and led to some mass genocides). But if you stay soilders will die and civilians will too.

Personally I think one of the ways to end the conflict is too re apply pressure for a Palestinian state. The Gaza pull out is a massive start but resentment will always be persistent in the Middle East as long as Israel exists and Palestine doesn't. It won't cure the violence but it gives insurgents less ground to attack on and recruit from. That's only one part of the fix though, the US has to win the hearts and minds of Iraqis but really improving the infrastructure and the economy as well as providing a secure enviroment.

Trainsaw

11/19/05, 11:34 AM

I understand this position 110% more than I do the idea of withdrawling troops now. I honestly don't see how withdrawling troops now benefits anyone besides the terrorists conducting attacks.
We're not fighting terrorists in Iraq, we're fighting the people whom don't want us there, ironically the exact type of person you'd be if someone came in your country and tried to change things

Cal Smith

11/19/05, 12:08 PM

We're not fighting terrorists in Iraq, we're fighting the people whom don't want us there, ironically the exact type of person you'd be if someone came in your country and tried to change things

You really think the average Iraqi civilian has the material to make suicide bombs, the know how to build one, and the desire to mainly target other Iraqi civilians?

Trainsaw

11/19/05, 12:22 PM

Yes so you're telling me every person we're fighting in iraq is a terrorist? You cannot stop terrorism, its not a group of people, its a belief, and what they believe is right in their eyes, like what you believe is right in your eyes. So no matter if you kill one terrorist today, 5 more will spring up tomorrow. Just because they don't want us there that makes them a terrorist? We're fighting a never ending battle, and wasting time, money, and lives.

getupkid53

11/19/05, 01:57 PM

Bush himself said it best when he was interviewed by 20/20 (I believe) before the elections. he said something to in the vain of "You can't win the war on terror, because you aren't fighting a people, you're fighting an attitude." From the horses mouth. I agree with the president 100%. Also, the mission accomplished thing was probably the dumbest slogan ever. That's like me showing up to my baseball game and saying 'Mission Accomplished..... I'm here'. Everybody else would think I was an idiot because we hadn't even played the game yet. I think that is what most people are saying. Yes, we accomplished getting there, and some more, Iraq has a consititution (although it's extremely unstable) and a parliment. Either way, we're not really getting the job done, and the Iraqi police / soldiers are still completely incompetent of handling themselves and won't be ready for years. I agree pulling out now is not a smart thing to do. I would love to see an outline and implementation for an exit strategy though.

Trainsaw

11/19/05, 02:05 PM

i always thought accomplished ment finished, "I got to my senior year of college, 'Mission Accomplished!'", yeah really sounds appropriate right?

yeat182

11/19/05, 02:10 PM

i always thought accomplished ment finished, "I got to my senior year of college, 'Mission Accomplished!'", yeah really sounds appropriate right?

if the mission was to make it to your senior year, then it makes sense. He didn't say "the war is over" he said "mission accomplished" refereing to the mission at hand at the time, which was the successful invasion of Iraq and the removal of Saddam and his sons from power.

regardless, what difference would it make to anyone if they had never made the damn sign? everything would be exactly as it is now, so what is the point in even bringing it up?

also, the people that are fighting coalition forces in Iraq are terrorists in the very sense of the word.

Trainsaw

11/19/05, 02:11 PM

if the mission was to make it to your senior year, then it makes sense. He didn't say "the war is over" he said "mission accomplished" refereing to the mission at hand at the time, which was the successful invasion of Iraq and the removal of Saddam and his sons from power.

regardless, what difference would it make to anyone if they had never made the damn sign? everything would be exactly as it is now, so what is the point in even bringing it up?

also, the people that are fighting coalition forces in Iraq are terrorists in the very sense of the word.
elaborate.

yeat182

11/19/05, 02:46 PM

elaborate.

from dictionary.com:

terrorist

adj : characteristic of someone who employs terrorism (especially as a political weapon); "terrorist activity"; "terrorist state" n : a radical who employs terror as a political weapon; usually organizes with other terrorists in small cells; often uses religion as a cover for terrorist activities

ter·ror·ism Audio pronunciation of "terrorism" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tr-rzm)
n.

The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

Cal Smith

11/19/05, 03:24 PM

elaborate.

how about you look at the very simple fact they are bombing mosques, police stations, and other Iraqi targets? they are not solely targeting coalition forces.

would you consider Tim Mcveigh a terrorist? I mean he simply wanted the US government out?

selftitled85

11/19/05, 04:46 PM

if you think pulling troops out of iraq now is a good idea, you are an idiot

Dan Hollister

11/19/05, 05:41 PM

getupkid53

11/19/05, 08:06 PM

I'm all in agreement about not pulling troops out, but your statement borders on blasphemous. Innocent people die every day in Iraq. Innocent Iraqi's have lost alot more lives than our soldiers. How dare you dishonor their memory by calling them terrorists. You're a douche and a severly mis / uninformed one at that.

EDIT: and no real downside to us staying there.... How about 1000's more soldiers dying for a cause that is losing support daily. Regardless of the support, more Americans and Iraqi's dying is a pretty huge downside. Justifying that by saying they would be killed by terrorists is not a rebuttle. You've made some decent posts before, but lately you have been saying some utterly dumb shit.

selftitled85

11/19/05, 08:13 PM

Haha, selftitled85, I was just about to post that exact same thing. Good call, my friend.

We withdraw now, we lose what we started, and we'll get even more heat later from the dems and from the Middle East saying we left them high and dry.

If we stay and get the job done, then... well, we stay and get the job done. No real downside. "Civillians dying" is kind of a stupid argument, since the "civilians" who are dying are the ones bombing themselves and their peers. Or shooting at us.

i agree with part but disagree with your second segment. civilians do die, and it is a shitty part but to say its not important is completely wrong. its a very important aspect. many of the people the terrorists bomb are innocent people and not the terrorists or their peers.

now, if america did leave iraq now these same crazy terrorists would be the ones to take control and basically turn iraq into hell on earth.

Justin_stacy

11/19/05, 09:58 PM

A direct pull out now would be idiotic as we have not given the Iraqi’s a long enough time to succeed. But with a few exceptions, no one in the DNC is calling for that, as the vote showed. What people, and not just Democrats, want as of now, is some kind of non-date related table or conditions for withdraws. Example, if condition A is met by the Iraqi’s, then X number of troops will be pulled out. Is a concept like that so extreme?

Democrats aren’t exactly known for their good ideas, but this one from Rep. Skelton of Missouri is fantastic and should be implemented today. (http://www.house.gov/skelton/pr051024.htm)

Skelton proposes that for every three Iraqi security force combat brigades rated “Level 1" (or fully capable), an American brigade or unit of similar size, type, and mission should be strategically redeployed from Iraq. This would establish a clear link between the development of Iraqi security forces and the redeployment of American forces, demonstrating progress in a way that both the American and the Iraqi people can plainly see.

But that is just a start…..

open mind

11/19/05, 11:48 PM

i think it's a bit niave to believe that the government being put together in iraq can sustain itself, so from where i'm at we're just throwing lives and money into a bottomless pit, things are gonna go to shit no matter how long we stay in iraq so why stay longer? i could be wrong though.

Cal Smith

11/20/05, 12:06 PM

We're not fighting terrorists in Iraq, we're fighting the people whom don't want us there, ironically the exact type of person you'd be if someone came in your country and tried to change things

I think you should read this article.............Who are the insurgents in Iraq? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4268904.stm)

Just Decent

11/21/05, 02:39 PM

I am sure that someone's mission somewhere in the world was accomplished at this point, duh!

himynameisjohn

11/21/05, 03:48 PM

We're there now, you can do anything about it. Lets just finish what we started.

dan.is.empire

11/21/05, 06:19 PM

good. we need to repair what we destroyed.

I am all talk

11/22/05, 04:19 AM

withdrawl? No
Some sort of an exit plan that you can share with the American Public? Yes

Web250

11/22/05, 09:27 AM

Geez....the more this year goes on, I hate GWB more and more.

*cocks shotgun*
Its go time.

getupkid53

11/22/05, 09:35 AM

Check out the front page of any news source today. The Iraqi's are asking US officials to start setting up a withdrawal plan. On that note, is anyone else cold? I think hell just froze over.

Cal Smith

11/22/05, 09:42 AM

Check out the front page of any news source today. The Iraqi's are asking US officials to start setting up a withdrawal plan. On that note, is anyone else cold? I think hell just froze over.

What your're tlaking about is nothing new. Teh Suni's want a timetable while the kurds and shiite's don't want to set a deadline (which is why nothing got accomplished at this meeting)

Kid Kilowatt

11/23/05, 06:32 AM

Let them have their civil war. When the dust settles, the person who wins will run Iraq, and it will be considered more of a legitimate government than the current one.

justinevans

11/23/05, 08:30 AM

We're not fighting terrorists in Iraq, we're fighting the people whom don't want us there, ironically the exact type of person you'd be if someone came in your country and tried to change things

how do you know? is it because the news reporters go over there and only interview the people that don't want us there? come on dude, really what do you have to base your opinion on that they have not benefited from us being there.

TERRORISM WAS ALWAYS THERE! WE JUST DIDN'T REPORT IT CAUSE WE AS AMERICANS DIDN'T REALLY CARE BECAUSE IT DIDN'T BOTHER US.

Kid Kilowatt

11/23/05, 08:54 AM

how do you know? is it because the news reporters go over there and only interview the people that don't want us there? .
There have been polls, which show that the majority of the people do not want us there. Furthermore, the leaders of Iraq have asked for their to be a timetable for the presence of the US in Iraq. They seem to believe they can do well without us, and since they are a free people, we should respect that and leave.

justinevans

11/23/05, 09:01 AM

Kid Kilowatt

11/23/05, 09:04 AM

hahahaha look up how long we stayed in germany and japan after world war 2.
So? Make a point.

fuck it - at this point i don't care. leave and let them die. right? isn't that what everyone wants.
If they die in a civil war, then it is their choice. That is what it amounts to:

Freedom of choice.

We gave them their freedom, and with that freedom they have expressed the opinion that they want us gone, so let us respect that choice.

Cal Smith

11/23/05, 10:26 AM

There have been polls, which show that the majority of the people do not want us there. Furthermore, the leaders of Iraq have asked for their to be a timetable for the presence of the US in Iraq. They seem to believe they can do well without us, and since they are a free people, we should respect that and leave.

A.) First, if you ask me in a poll if you want us in Iraq I too would say NO. There's a difference between want and need and I'd really like to see a poll asking Iraqi's if they believe are forces are neccesarry right now for protection.

B.) You notice how you didnt see a timetable.........? You know why? The Shiites, and Kurds realize they need their forces in better condition first. They're trying to get the Sunnis on board with the process so they've obviously compromised in recongnizing a timetable is needed. Yet they're smart enough not to draw one up. No, they don't seem to believe they can do well without us because if they did you'd have the governemtn asking us to leave now.

Cal Smith

11/23/05, 10:29 AM

We gave them their freedom, and with that freedom they have expressed the opinion that they want us gone, so let us respect that choice.

Again, quit making shit up. The government has never expressed that opinion.

I wish many of you would read better, or if you're making facts up on your own to fit your own reality you should stop that too.

You show me a piece of legislation where the Iraqis want us gone now..............?

siberianxkiss

11/23/05, 10:50 AM

Again, quit making shit up. The government has never expressed that opinion.
I wish many of you would read better, or if you're making facts up on your own to fit your own reality you should stop that too.
You show me a piece of legislation where the Iraqis want us gone now..............?

here you go, it seems they would like a timetable too:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/11/22/iraq.conference.ap/

Kid Kilowatt

11/23/05, 11:11 AM

A.) First, if you ask me in a poll if you want us in Iraq I too would say NO. There's a difference between want and need and I'd really like to see a poll asking Iraqi's if they believe are forces are neccesarry right now for protection.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-04-28-poll-cover_x.htm

B.) You notice how you didnt see a timetable.........? You know why? The Shiites, and Kurds realize they need their forces in better condition first. They're trying to get the Sunnis on board with the process so they've obviously compromised in recongnizing a timetable is needed. Yet they're smart enough not to draw one up. No, they don't seem to believe they can do well without us because if they did you'd have the governemtn asking us to leave now.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5431131,00.html

Kid Kilowatt

11/23/05, 11:15 AM

Again, quit making shit up. The government has never expressed that opinion.

I wish many of you would read better, or if you're making facts up on your own to fit your own reality you should stop that too.

You show me a piece of legislation where the Iraqis want us gone now..............?
Presupposition:

The current government speaks for the will of the people.

http://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2005/10/british_defense_1.html

Cal Smith

11/23/05, 11:58 AM

here you go, it seems they would like a timetable too:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/11/22/iraq.conference.ap/

Good Lord! Would you read what I say and then read what the article says?

What I said: "You notice how you didnt see a timetable.........? You know why? The Shiites, and Kurds realize they need their forces in better condition first. They're trying to get the Sunnis on board with the process so they've obviously compromised in recongnizing a timetable is needed."

What that article says: "Reaching out to the Sunni Arab community, Iraqi leaders called for a timetable for the withdrawal of U.S.-led forces...............Sunni leaders have been pressing the Shiite-majority government to agree to a timetable for the withdrawal of all foreign troops. The statement recognized that goal, but did not lay down a specific time -- reflecting instead the government's stance that Iraqi security forces must be built up first."

I'm simply repeating what the article says. I have a problem when people make up crap like "they want us out now". Yet, if they'd use their God given sense they'd realize if they wanted us out now then THEY would call a timetable, or make a public declaration that they want us out.

Cal Smith

11/23/05, 12:04 PM

Presupposition:

The current government speaks for the will of the people.

http://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2005/10/british_defense_1.html

Again can you show me where the Iraq government has said they want us out now?

You've said they want us out numerous times..........
"They seem to believe they can do well without us"
"they have expressed the opinion that they want us gone, "

It's not a hard question and I think if you're going to make a strong assertion you should be able to back it up with something.

Kid Kilowatt

11/23/05, 01:05 PM

Again can you show me where the Iraq government has said they want us out now?
You've said they want us out numerous times..........
"They seem to believe they can do well without us"
"they have expressed the opinion that they want us gone, "
It's not a hard question and I think if you're going to make a strong assertion you should be able to back it up with something.
The government, much like this one, is not responding to the wishes of the people.

Cal Smith

11/23/05, 03:33 PM

The government, much like this one, is not responding to the wishes of the people.

So you believe the government should support their wishes even if they believe it to be harmful?

commatosa

11/23/05, 05:29 PM

whoa whoa guys. Of course the Iraqis want us there. The liberal bias of the media just won't let you know that. Those countless suicide attacks...those are just growing pains (sarcasm). You know what? Maybe the end result will be a positive one. But by the time that happens, enough time will have passed to where Saddam Hussein would have died of natural causes anyway.

Kid Kilowatt

11/24/05, 10:25 AM

So you believe the government should support their wishes even if they believe it to be harmful?
It is obvious that the people feel the presence of the US is exacerbating the problem.

richter915

11/24/05, 05:13 PM

when Bush ratings are down...the "we beat terror" banners spring up

of course there's no relation between the two...just like how were on a high terror alert for several months prior to the election but they were all mysteriously gone the second Bush won...

hmm

Cal Smith

11/24/05, 08:51 PM

It is obvious that the people feel the presence of the US is exacerbating the problem.

So you believe the government should support their wishes even if they believe it to be harmful?

Cal Smith

11/24/05, 08:52 PM

when Bush ratings are down...the "we beat terror" banners spring up
of course there's no relation between the two...just like how were on a high terror alert for several months prior to the election but they were all mysteriously gone the second Bush won...
hmm

when were we on a terror alert several months prior to the election? i dont remember that?

Kid Kilowatt

11/25/05, 12:11 AM

So you believe the government should support their wishes even if they believe it to be harmful?
I believe the government officials, which were picked by the US, should listen to the people, and the facts, regardless of the talking points they are fed.

Cal Smith

11/25/05, 08:44 AM

I believe the government officials, which were picked by the US, should listen to the people, and the facts, regardless of the talking points they are fed.

Picked by the US.......? Again if you're going to make stuff up at least back it up. The US supported the former provisional prime minister that the coalition had put in place in the beginning and he recieved a very small % of the final vote. LINK (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/02/04/MNGSMB5MDT1.DTL)

If facts are too hard to deal with just don't post.............

I think the Iraqi government should do what they think is in the best interest of Iraq.

Kid Kilowatt

11/25/05, 09:49 AM

Picked by the US.......? Again if you're going to make stuff up at least back it up. The US supported the former provisional prime minister that the coalition had put in place in the beginning and he recieved a very small % of the final vote. LINK (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/02/04/MNGSMB5MDT1.DTL)
If facts are too hard to deal with just don't post.............
I think the Iraqi government should do what they think is in the best interest of Iraq.
I would think that it would be obvious that the United States would not allow a variety of people to rise to power.
As I've stated, the Iraqi government should listen to the people and the facts:

The presence of the United States is exacerbating the problem.

Cal Smith

11/25/05, 06:17 PM

I would think that it would be obvious that the United States would not allow a variety of people to rise to power.

Yes, the variety we're fighting against that want to kill us. On the other hand, you said the US has picked this government and that is a flat out lie. Slap in the face to those who risked their ass to go out and vote too.

As I've stated, the Iraqi government should listen to the people and the facts:
The presence of the United States is exacerbating the problem.

Would you support the US being in Iraq if the Iraqi people favored it?
Also why didnt you support the war when the American voters overwhelmingly supported it prior to the war?

open mind

11/26/05, 02:28 AM

Yes, the variety we're fighting against that want to kill us. On the other hand, you said the US has picked this government and that is a flat out lie.
i have to agree with you there, but truly free elections were vigorously opposed by the bush administration for quite some time and only happened because the iraqi people would take nothing less.
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2530

justinevans

11/26/05, 07:37 AM

So? Make a point.

If they die in a civil war, then it is their choice. That is what it amounts to:

Freedom of choice.

We gave them their freedom, and with that freedom they have expressed the opinion that they want us gone, so let us respect that choice.

the point is, we always blow shit up and then stay there long to rebuild it.

justinevans

11/26/05, 07:38 AM

Again, quit making shit up. The government has never expressed that opinion.
I wish many of you would read better, or if you're making facts up on your own to fit your own reality you should stop that too.
You show me a piece of legislation where the Iraqis want us gone now..............?

they listen to what the news or a left-wing radical tells them.

justinevans

11/26/05, 07:40 AM

It is obvious that the people feel the presence of the US is exacerbating the problem.

Really? what happens when the first terrorist attack happens when we leave the country? who will look stupid then?

Kid Kilowatt

11/26/05, 11:18 AM

Yes, the variety we're fighting against that want to kill us. On the other hand, you said the US has picked this government and that is a flat out lie. Slap in the face to those who risked their ass to go out and vote too.
It doesn't cheapen the risk they too, really.
Would you support the US being in Iraq if the Iraqi people favored it?
I would support troops from many nations being in Iraq.

Also why didnt you support the war when the American voters overwhelmingly supported it prior to the war?
Because, I knew we were being lied to.

justinevans

11/26/05, 05:45 PM

It doesn't cheapen the risk they too, really.
I would support troops from many nations being in Iraq.
Because, I knew we were being lied to.

France, Russia, Germany were all paid off by Sadaam to go against us.

Justin_stacy

11/27/05, 02:00 AM

France, Russia, Germany were all paid off by Sadaam to go against us.

as were people directly connected to the UN and the anti-war "movement".....

justdontdie

11/27/05, 02:30 AM

From Kuwait to Kosovo, americans have been giving their lives to stop the senseless killings of muslims. Yet they still hate us. I believe Winston Chirchill said it best, "Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen: all know how to die. But the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytising faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science - the science against which it had vainly struggled - the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome."
It's going to take a long flippin time,if ever, before these people learn to accept democratic ideals. I say napalm the entire area.

Kid Kilowatt

11/27/05, 11:46 AM

France, Russia, Germany were all paid off by Sadaam to go against us.
I don't care about those countries.

Cal Smith

11/27/05, 11:55 AM

I don't care about those countries.

Who cares if you care about those countries? Fact of the matter is you said you would support troops if other countries were there, and it was pointed out that some of the major nations had an invested interest in Saddam staying in power.

Do I have to go deeper into the point or can you figure it out from here?

Kid Kilowatt

11/27/05, 12:03 PM

Who cares if you care about those countries? Fact of the matter is you said you would support troops if other countries were there, and it was pointed out that some of the major nations had an invested interest in Saddam staying in power.
I would rather Arab nations had an active role in the rebuilding of Iraq.

Cal Smith

11/27/05, 12:04 PM

I would rather Arab nations had an active role in the rebuilding of Iraq.

like who?

justdontdie

11/27/05, 03:06 PM

I would rather Arab nations had an active role in the rebuilding of Iraq.

OH! How 'bout Syria! Or Iran! I'm sure they'll get along just swell :|

Kid Kilowatt

11/27/05, 03:38 PM

like who?
Jordan, Turkey, and Egypt seem like viable options.

Tuesday's Gone

11/27/05, 03:49 PM

Bush Suxs Balls!

Cal Smith

11/27/05, 04:49 PM

Jordan, Turkey, and Egypt seem like viable options.

Jordan and Turkey both supported the war and helped the US out.

richter915

11/27/05, 04:57 PM

Jordan and Turkey both supported the war and helped the US out.
hah you freakin nazi.

but ya, I think we should up the forces in Iraq and show em the meaning of freedom! HOOWAH!

gillianhsieh

11/27/05, 07:05 PM

if we just demolish iran, we can build a pipeline from iraq straight to turkey where they will throw oil at us.

then the impending energy crisis will never come, not in infinity years. iraq has enough oil to support american consumption until the sun swallows the earth whole. and we won't have to waste bullshit energy on refineries, it springs out of the ground distilled and ready to use, just attach your car to a drill/pump setup! lets all buy hummers!