Gay Marriage Legalized in Iowa

[Mercy Medical]

Fuck yes, fuck yes, fuck yes!

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20090403/NEWS/90403010

This in no way effects me directly as I live in PA, but I think this is a HUGE step for gay marriage. The midwest is typically viewed as one of the most conservative portions of the country and for gay marriage to be legalized there makes me very hopeful for the future. There are other bills going through the process in NH, Vermont and Connecticut. Other states such as West Virgina and Delaware have bills to ban gay marriage failing. A domestic partnership bill is working its way through the WA state government as well.

To me, it feels like even with the giant defeat in California, equal rights for the LGBT citizens of this country are on the rise. Granted, we still have a very, very long way to go, but this makes me extremely hopeful for the near future.

[gloriousmuse]

Just heard this! This is great news. Now let's hope Vermont get their shit together and follow.

[Mercy Medical]

Just heard this! This is great news. Now let's hope Vermont get their shit together and follow.
If that stupid governor in Vermot vetos the bill (like he promised he would) once it has passed through everything else with flying colors, I'm going to be pissed.

[wrppdarndyrfngr]

Vermont House gives preliminary OK to gay marriage (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hZmLBrL36NObNyMR0ghXN7vB5hYwD 97ANCJ00)

[wrppdarndyrfngr]

ok refresh my memory which states have legalized gay marriage?

[Mercy Medical]

ok refresh my memory which states have legalized gay marriage?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Samesex_marriage_in_USA.svg

[wrppdarndyrfngr]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Samesex_marriage_in_USA.svg

Thanks.

[Mercy Medical]

Thanks.
No problem

[Liter-O-Cola]

I'm so proud to live in Iowa. We are really much more progressive than people give us credit for.

[xshady121]

Still doesn't mean anything with DOMA

[Liter-O-Cola]

Stepping stones...

[Kaleidoscope]

sick.

[Mercy Medical]

Still doesn't mean anything with DOMA
No shit, really? Oh, I had totally forgotten about that!

WTF negative Nancy...

[Mercy Medical]

And it DOES mean something. It's a step in the right direction for this country. Yes, DOMA is still in place and gay marriage isn't recognized on the federal level, but the fact that a Midwestern, typically red state just legalized it says a lot about this country and where we're going.

You have to learn to walk before you can run...

[Liter-O-Cola]

hahaha i think the term negative Nancy is way under used

[Liter-O-Cola]

And it DOES mean something. It's a step in the right direction for this country. Yes, DOMA is still in place and gay marriage isn't recognized on the federal level, but the fact that a Midwestern, typically red state just legalized it says a lot about this country and where we're going.

You have to learn to walk before you can run...

We've actually been a blue state for a majority of the past two decades (4/5 presidential elections)

[Liter-O-Cola]

Edit: 5/6, sorry

[Mercy Medical]

We've actually been a blue state for a majority of the past two decades (4/5 presidential elections)
Haha, well then I am misinformed. I suppose I just assume midwest=red state, although I realize that is changing a lot as of late.

[Liter-O-Cola]

Haha, well then I am misinformed. I suppose I just assume midwest=red state, although I realize that is changing a lot as of late.

A lot of people assume that, which isn't necessarily a bad thing when it comes to gay marriage. Maybe people will see it as a shift in closed-minded Midwestern conservative thinking.

[xshady121]

And it DOES mean something. It's a step in the right direction for this country. Yes, DOMA is still in place and gay marriage isn't recognized on the federal level, but the fact that a Midwestern, typically red state just legalized it says a lot about this country and where we're going.

You have to learn to walk before you can run...

Since when is Iowa a "typically red state"?

[Mercy Medical]

Since when is Iowa a "typically red state"?
If you read posts past that point, you would realize that I acknowledged my mistake...

[jusscali]

Sweet! One for the good guys.

[Lueda Alia]

I read about this earlier. Such a good thing to hear.

[SanePsychotic]

Only 48 more to go...

[Nic Mirfield]

Good news.

[Mercy Medical]

Only 48 more to go...
47

[J.C.]

Only 48 more to go...

You've got Connecticut, Massachusetts, and Iowa.

[SanePsychotic]

47

You've got Connecticut, Massachusetts, and Iowa.

My mistake, I must have misread something.

Only 47 to go!

[xshady121]

If you read posts past that point, you would realize that I acknowledged my mistake...

I only hit "who quoted me".

[tD77]

Good job Iowa. But it still saddens me how some people view this. Some "friend" statuses regarding the issue:

"THIS is how Iowa gets national media attention?? I think I would rather have it be a terrorist attack."

"...thought Iowa was a good state, til 8:30 this morning"

[Adeniz19]

"THIS is how Iowa gets national media attention?? I think I would rather have it be a terrorist attack."

wow... if you don't know that person, delete them. if you do, you need to hit them across the face the next time you see them.

what a great american citizen we have there...

[loveisdead]

Not only was it legalized...it was a unanimous decision. I encourage you guys to read the opinion, they make very persuasive arguments about the whole redefining marriage thing.

[Machu505]

The times they are a-changin'.

[Smash Adams]

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/7027/rvfdzvnt1lum3jfggyyeyvo.jpg

I guess this kind of response is inevitable but it's still disheartening

[Machu505]

If that stupid governor in Vermot vetos the bill (like he promised he would) once it has passed through everything else with flying colors, I'm going to be pissed.

To my knowledge, his veto wouldn't matter. If it passes in the House by the same margin it did in the Senate, it can override his veto.

Here's hoping Vermont and New Hampshire will follow through with their proposals.

[xshady121]

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/7027/rvfdzvnt1lum3jfggyyeyvo.jpg

I guess this kind of response is inevitable but it's still disheartening

The more important point at hand is why were these people living in Iowa to begin with?

[Foxholes]

I think I know that last Asheley person, but holy balls are people really this backwards?

[Smash Adams]

The more important point at hand is why were these people living in Iowa to begin with?
They like potatoes, oops that's Idaho- I have no idea

[more heart]

A step in the right direction

[Paul Tao]

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/7027/rvfdzvnt1lum3jfggyyeyvo.jpg

I guess this kind of response is inevitable but it's still disheartening
Disturbing.

[more heart]

I've yet to understand why people care what others do.

[caitlinlee]

Good job to Iowa. Doesn't affect me, but this is definitely a small step in the right direction.

[coolwithme19]

this is awesome. maybe tomorrow conservatives in iowa will realize that there coffee doesn taste different, they dont have aids, and the appocalypse isnt coming, that way they can let california know just how bad they fucked up

[buttons]

this is awesome. maybe tomorrow conservatives in iowa will realize that there coffee doesn taste different, they dont have aids, and the appocalypse isnt coming, that way they can let california know just how bad they fucked up

seriouslyyy.

[Analog Rebellion]

I've yet to understand why people care what others do.
This is what I don't understand. The religious right just want to impose their moral will on everyone else, which is fucking stupid.

If we left it up to them, it would be a legal requirement to attend church on a weekly basis.

[J.C.]

Strawhacker may be my favorite redneck surname.

[thedaywedied]

*applause*... now california come on california!...
fuck that EVERYWHERE

[briXinRhands]

great step in the right direction, good job Iowa.

[aoftbsten]

48 to go...

[Hainzey X]

good shit, iowa.

[Machu505]

48 to go...

47. ;-)

[briXinRhands]

Strawhacker:
Iowan for 'bigot'

[radxbandit]

This is a step in the right direction, down a long road towards equality throughout the nation. I'm pleased to see Iowa accomplish this, and I hope Oregon can soon follow it their footsteps.

[Charles777]

Best news I've heard all day.

:party:

[Lueda Alia]

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/7027/rvfdzvnt1lum3jfggyyeyvo.jpg

I guess this kind of response is inevitable but it's still disheartening
I'm sure there are some Canadians out there who are as close minded, but I have honestly never met any. People who have such opinions keep them to themselves because no one would tolerate them. That is just sick.

[thesafeword]

Wasn't this legal in Washington and California at some point?

[Charles777]

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/7027/rvfdzvnt1lum3jfggyyeyvo.jpg

I guess this kind of response is inevitable but it's still disheartening
At least Samantha Peterson is a good person.

[Khaos]

ok refresh my memory which states have legalized gay marriage?

CT and MA. CA used to but prop 8 killed it.

[Khaos]

I'm sure there are some Canadians out there who are as close minded, but I have honestly never met any. People who have such opinions keep them to themselves because no one would tolerate them. That is just sick.

Sad... WTF is wrong with people. I hate the fucking christian right and I am christian. The are so unchristlike.

[Analog Rebellion]

At least Samantha Peterson is a good person.

Yeah but her obnoxious WOOHOO is probably translated by all the idiots as "THE GAYS ARE COMING FOR UR BABIES"

[Kill_the_radio]

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/7027/rvfdzvnt1lum3jfggyyeyvo.jpg

I guess this kind of response is inevitable but it's still disheartening

I can't believe this kind of shit. Pure IGNORANCE!

[Ben09]

I'm sure there are some Canadians out there who are as close minded, but I have honestly never met any. People who have such opinions keep them to themselves because no one would tolerate them. That is just sick.

...seriously? This is America.

[Analog Rebellion]

I can't believe this kind of shit. Pure IGNORANCE!
Yeah, it's one thing to "disagree" with it, which I still think is stupid, but acting like it's going to ruin the world is so fucking ridiculous. "MY WIFE AND I ARE MOVING" Yeah, you should go move to a hole in the ground, fucking bigots.

[Analog Rebellion]

...seriously? This is America.
He's talking about people in Canada that don't voice their opposition against gay marriage.

[Charles777]

Yeah but her obnoxious WOOHOO is probably translated by all the idiots as "THE GAYS ARE COMING FOR UR BABIES"
Haha, most likely.

[Adeniz19]

i got a million bucks saying none of the assholes are moving anywhere haha

[Khaos]

Yeah but her obnoxious WOOHOO is probably translated by all the idiots as "THE GAYS ARE COMING FOR UR BABIES"

What are people so afraid of? I saw this documentary the other day were a female historian explained how marriage as never been static and that that argument that this is going to change the 2000+ years of marriage is BS. Marriage wasn't even considered a holy union until the catholic church declared it so in the middle ages. Plus it showed how marriage was primarily a means of survival and had nothing to do with love until the 1800s.

If this isn't a issue with religion then can't gays and lesbian get married? Atheists can get married, Satanist can get married, even crazy Scientologist can get married. The religious right needs to grow the fuck up and read the fucking new testament again. If only the actually asked themselves "WWJD" before they opened their mouths.

[Mirrorsandfevers]

About time something happened.

[zion the lion]

It annoys me when people say "I'm moving" because something happens that they dont like, because usually they dont move and it gives my hopes up.

[Khaos]

I pray Austin Strawhacker's first born child is gay. :P

[Analog Rebellion]

i got a million bucks saying none of the assholes are moving anywhere haha
Haha agreed.

What are people so afraid of? I saw this documentary the other day were a female historian explained how marriage as never been static and that that argument that this is going to change the 2000+ years of marriage is BS. Marriage wasn't even considered a holy union until the catholic church declared it so in the middle ages. Plus it showed how marriage was primarily a means of survival and had nothing to do with love until the 1800s.

If this isn't a issue with religion then can't gays and lesbian get married? Atheists can get married, Satanist can get married, even crazy Scientologist can get married. The religious right needs to grow the fuck up and read the fucking new testament again. If only the actually asked themselves "WWJD" before they opened their mouths.
I agree with you 100%. It's a null argument. It's just pure hate, ignorance, and inequality. I say we throw any Christian that gets divorced in jail, since they're not "protecting our morals". I don't really believe that, but I'm sure Christians would object, stating that it is their civil right to get a divorce.

It annoys me when people say "I'm moving" because something happens that they dont like, because usually they dont move and it gives my hopes up.
Haha, as long as they don't move near me, I don't mind. :-)

[Analog Rebellion]

I pray Austin Strawhacker's first born child is gay. :P
Your avatar made me laugh.

[Lueda Alia]

...seriously? This is America.
Yes, seriously. People would not make derogatory comments towards homosexuals publicly. It's just not acceptable here.
He's talking about people in Canada that don't voice their opposition against gay marriage.
I'm a "she," boy.

[Lueda Alia]

i got a million bucks saying none of the assholes are moving anywhere haha
They should move to Canada. Oh, wait a second....

They would have a hard time moving to any other western country because no one would tolerate their ignorant opinions.

[CarryOn09]

...seriously? This is America.
seriously, free speech dosent cover hate speech.

:hitself:

[zion the lion]

It always kills every ounce of any positive mood I have when I hear/see people who hate this whole thing and then decide to reduce people down to the other "F" word. I'm way too damn sensitive.

[nickstetina]

That's pretty surprising. Nothing is unanimous these days...awesome though.

[J.C.]

seriously, free speech dosent cover hate speech.

:hitself:

It does, Cloie Bear.

I don't think these views are that much more common publicly here than anywhere else. I think when people make stupid pronouncements on something like facebook they believe it's just between their friends. It's public, but it's confined.

[SteveD]

xRQJQu7ZrPk

[Adeniz19]

They should move to Canada. Oh, wait a second....

They would have a hard time moving to any other western country because no one would tolerate their ignorant opinions.they can just keep moving south until they get to alabama and just jump into the gulf when even that state finally legalizes same-sex marriage.

[CarryOn09]

It does, Cloie Bear.

I don't think these views are that much more common publicly here than anywhere else. I think when people make stupid pronouncements on something like facebook they believe it's just between their friends. It's public, but it's confined.
legally it does, but the cultural view of free speech stops at hate speech. many people, including myself, see that as the free speech that we follow. example, the n-word. i dont say it because in my mind, that is an abhorrent term used to degrade people. many people also feel this way. hence, it is viewed by the vast majority of people as a word that can not be justified by throwing free speech over it.

[CarryOn09]

they can just keep moving south until they get to alabama and just jump into the gulf when even that state finally legalizes same-sex marriage.
:highfive:

[kristanxmarie]

this is exciting. hopefully this will be a step in the right direction for the rest of the US.

[Analog Rebellion]

legally it does, but the cultural view of free speech stops at hate speech. many people, including myself, see that as the free speech that we follow. example, the n-word. i dont say it because in my mind, that is an abhorrent term used to degrade people. many people also feel this way. hence, it is viewed by the vast majority of people as a word that can not be justified by throwing free speech over it.
I don't agree with saying the N word, but I support people's right to use it. Same goes for crazies like Westboro Baptist Church. They're sick fucks, but I support their right to say the sick, fucked up stuff they do.

[RuckerPark]

that is so gay.

[CarryOn09]

I don't agree with saying the N word, but I support people's right to use it. Same goes for crazies like Westboro Baptist Church. They're sick fucks, but I support their right to say the sick, fucked up stuff they do.
im just saying that it is a socially unacceptable thing for people to spewing. sure, it is their right under law. they can say whatever the fuck they want, but it dosent cahnge the fact that what they are saying is flat out, no way around it, totally and completely wrong.

[lbopm]

that is so gay.

this

[RuckerPark]

im just saying that it is a socially unacceptable thing for people to spewing. sure, it is their right under law. they can say whatever the fuck they want, but it dosent cahnge the fact that what they are saying is flat out, no way around it, totally and completely wrong.


Westboro! what what! they're from my hometown. i chill with them and drink 40s on the weekends. the Phelps' know how to party.

[DandonTRJ]

The court's logic seems sound to me. I'm behind the ruling 100%.

I don't know how anyone can reasonably object to this, unless they believe the government is in charge of doing things it's not supposed to do. Seriously. That's the only justification I hear people clinging to nowadays. That government is supposed to set a moral standard, and one-man-one-woman is the most stable (i.e. moral) configuration as such. Which is really just an assumption on their part, because I haven't seen a study to prove it, and a 50% divorce rate in this country says otherwise. Slippery slope doesn't cut it either, because gay marriage is the end of the line in terms of biological imperative. No other form of marriage can be called necessary (polygamy just means you want to bang more than one person) or proper (you can't get consent from a child or animal). There are only benefits to this movement. Stabilizing the gay lifestyle, encouraging more family planning, and just helping to further basic human rights. I can't wait until this domino series finally culminates and we can move on to discussing real politics again.

[loveisdead]

The court's logic seems sound to me. I'm behind the ruling 100%.

I don't know how anyone can reasonably object to this, unless they believe the government is in charge of doing things it's not supposed to do. Seriously. That's the only justification I hear people clinging to nowadays. That government is supposed to set a moral standard, and one-man-one-woman is the most stable (i.e. moral) configuration as such. Which is really just an assumption on their part, because I haven't seen a study to prove it, and a 50% divorce rate in this country says otherwise. Slippery slope doesn't cut it either, because gay marriage is the end of the line in terms of biological imperative. No other form of marriage can be called necessary (polygamy just means you want to bang more than one person) or proper (you can't get consent from a child or animal). There are only benefits to this movement. Stabilizing the gay lifestyle, encouraging more family planning, and just helping to further basic human rights. I can't wait until this domino series finally culminates and we can move on to discussing real politics again.
:goodpost:

[batmannj]

I don't agree with saying the N word, but I support people's right to use it. Same goes for crazies like Westboro Baptist Church. They're sick fucks, but I support their right to say the sick, fucked up stuff they do.
I agree with you there. The problem with free speech is that we tend to love free speech until it disagrees with us. One thing I wish that would be illegal is the way that the Westboro people riot at soldiers funerals. That is terrible.

[NorthofSD]

Iowa wasn't gay before today....huh.....that is surprising....

[icekold23]

The court's logic seems sound to me. I'm behind the ruling 100%.

I don't know how anyone can reasonably object to this, unless they believe the government is in charge of doing things it's not supposed to do. Seriously. That's the only justification I hear people clinging to nowadays. That government is supposed to set a moral standard, and one-man-one-woman is the most stable (i.e. moral) configuration as such. Which is really just an assumption on their part, because I haven't seen a study to prove it, and a 50% divorce rate in this country says otherwise. Slippery slope doesn't cut it either, because gay marriage is the end of the line in terms of biological imperative. No other form of marriage can be called necessary (polygamy just means you want to bang more than one person) or proper (you can't get consent from a child or animal). There are only benefits to this movement. Stabilizing the gay lifestyle, encouraging more family planning, and just helping to further basic human rights. I can't wait until this domino series finally culminates and we can move on to discussing real politics again.

I'm not 100% sure but I think it's at 51% right now.

Good job Iowa. If Iowa can do it, how come California can't or New York. I just don't get it.

[CarryOn09]

I'm not 100% sure but I think it's at 51% right now.

Good job Iowa. If Iowa can do it, how come California can't or New York. I just don't get it.
this.

[whiterussian]

I used to be against gay marriage in my own personal way.
Reasonable people against it shut up, and the others pretty much are idiots. Fuck people who hate others so blindly.
I personally don't really care anymore. If it adds happiness to someone's life, whatever. Marriages suck more and more every day, I don't really care why it is actually of any value. People need to focus on things that actually matter instead of whether they are "married" or not, or can be.

[loveisdead]

I'm not 100% sure but I think it's at 51% right now.

Good job Iowa. If Iowa can do it, how come California can't or New York. I just don't get it.
The courts seem to be more willing to legalize it than the people.

[FBRDC]

good for iowa

[CrashThisCar789]

This is awesome news. As awesome as it is, however, It only reminds me of my native state's history. We leaned blue for this election, which was a great step in my opinion. But the real progress begins when Virginia ratifies gay marriage, unanimously, with no strings attached. I'm a middle class Caucasian heterosexual, but a staunch supporter in equal rights for everyone. And by everyone, I mean the logical, true interpretation of everyone. EVERY. SINGLE. HUMAN. Rich, poor, gay, straight, black, white, blue, green.

It is up to us what we do with our opportunities. But it is up to the government to ensure that everyone is awarded the same opportunities, as well as society to both accept and reinforce this equality.

From now on, just to prove this point, I will no longer refer to humanity as "mankind", but rather "humankind".

[Machu505]

This will happen in West Virginia sometime soon. Count on it.

[Machu505]

But the real progress begins when Virginia ratifies gay marriage, unanimously, with no strings attached.

It would be truly a huge achievement to see the former seat of the Confederacy legalize same-sex marriage.

[CrashThisCar789]

It would be truly a huge achievement to see the former seat of the Confederacy legalize same-sex marriage.
It's a truly lofty goal...But people need to start thinking with their brains, and not just with their bibles.

[samsara]

Thats pretty great.

[Liter-O-Cola]

It's really disheartening that there are Iowans who said things that were included in the previous poster's image of Facebook statuses, but I'd like everyone to know that Iowa truly is a great, progressive state with great ideas, people, and officials. If you've never been here, you might have a much different perspective of what it's like, but we really are a leading example for the rest of the midwest, and I truly hope that the rest of our neighboring states follow suit. I can't express how proud I am of the state we've proved ourselves to be today.

/end rant. I'm going to go see the Mountain Goats.

[pennie]

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/7027/rvfdzvnt1lum3jfggyyeyvo.jpg

I guess this kind of response is inevitable but it's still disheartening


WOW. So much hate for something so little.

[Shieldyoureyes7]

It's really disheartening that there are Iowan's who said things that were included in the previous poster's image of Facebook statuses, but I'd like everyone to know that Iowa truly is a great, progressive state with great ideas, people, and officials. If you've never been here, you might have a much different perspective of what it's like, but we really are a leading example for the rest of the midwest, and I truly hope that the rest of our neighboring states follow suit. I can't express how proud I am of the state we've proved ourselves to be today.

/end rant. I'm going to go see the Mountain Goats.


Hell yes, I'll be there too. The rally in the Pentacrest today was great to see. Mountain Goats ahoy.

[CrashThisCar789]

It's really disheartening that there are Iowan's who said things that were included in the previous poster's image of Facebook statuses, but I'd like everyone to know that Iowa truly is a great, progressive state with great ideas, people, and officials. If you've never been here, you might have a much different perspective of what it's like, but we really are a leading example for the rest of the midwest, and I truly hope that the rest of our neighboring states follow suit. I can't express how proud I am of the state we've proved ourselves to be today.

/end rant. I'm going to go see the Mountain Goats.
That's great to hear. I would never make such a blanket statement as to suggest that all of Iowa was that ignorant, having never been there myself, but it is very noble of you to clarify for us. Right now, I'd rather live in Iowa.

[zion the lion]

I just had a long conversation with some guy about how this was going to lead to bestaility and pedophila, the drinking age being lowered to about 8 and the age of consent being lowered to 13, he said this was just the opening of pandoras box and now all hell is going to break loose, but didnt they say that about legalizing interracial marriage, and nothing bad happened there. Not to mention that pandora's box was opened when they decided marriage was a union that should be held sacred, instead of a contractual agreement between two men with a trade of land and women. But good for Iowa, three down 47 to go.

[Liter-O-Cola]

That's great to hear. I would never make such a blanket statement as to suggest that all of Iowa was that ignorant, having never been there myself, but it is very noble of you to clarify for us. Right now, I'd rather live in Iowa.

Come visit Iowa City! It's liberal as hell, not to mention the most literate city in the country and home to a great music and arts scene. (not trying to boast, just hoping to break down some stereotypes ha)

[Nigel Tufnel]

Im probably the most politically conservative dude on this whole page, but, how can anyone be against 2 responsible loving people wanting to celebrate their love through marriage?? I would rather have a couple gay folks who actually take marriage seriously have the opportunity to do so over an irresponsible skeez like brittany spears getting married more often than she flashes her bare snatch to the paparazzi.

Iowa should be more concerned with cracking down on inbreeding than a couple gays getting hitched :)

[Liter-O-Cola]

Im probably the most politically conservative dude on this whole page, but, how can anyone be against 2 responsible loving people wanting to celebrate their love through marriage?? I would rather have a couple gay folks who actually take marriage seriously have the opportunity to do so over an irresponsible skeez like brittany spears getting married more often than she flashes her bare snatch to the paparazzi.

That's exactly the point. It's not about politics. It's about human rights. Being politically conservative and supporting gay rights should not and are not mutually exclusive things. Social conservatives turn this into a religious issue but you can't make a religious argument without contradicting the separation of church and state. Thanks for being sensible.

[Liter-O-Cola]

Iowa should be more concerned with cracking down on inbreeding than a couple gays getting hitched :)

What?

[caityconundrum]

I haven't seen anyone say stupid things about it, but that might be because I de-friended most of the people who would when all the Prop 8 stuff was going on here.

Way to go, Iowa.

[loveisdead]

State rep is not happy

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/04/03/republican-warns-of-gay-marriage-mecca/?eref=politicalflipper

[jjjkman]

This is what I don't understand. The religious right just want to impose their moral will on everyone else, which is fucking stupid.

If we left it up to them, it would be a legal requirement to attend church on a weekly basis.

i wrote a whole essay around this idea for my comp class. if they think it should be illegal because of their religious beliefs, then they're opinion honestly shouldn't matter. last time i checked we had a separation of church and state

[Machu505]

State rep is not happy

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/04/03/republican-warns-of-gay-marriage-mecca/?eref=politicalflipper

Rep. King is a homophobe of massive proportions.

[loveisdead]

Rep. King is a homophobe of massive proportions.
He sounds like a jackass.

[beth danger]

This is the first time I've truly been proud of being born in Iowa

[Nigel Tufnel]

That's exactly the point. It's not about politics. It's about human rights. Being politically conservative and supporting gay rights should not and are not mutually exclusive things. Social conservatives turn this into a religious issue but you can't make a religious argument without contradicting the separation of church and state. Thanks for being sensible.

a fail to see where I mentioned anything about religion?? Or is it just a bad assumption on your part that all conservatives are religious wingnuts???

[aleandria]

I'm from Iowa and I support this 100% If they love each other than why not get married? My Uncle Larry is gay, but it's too bad he lives in Minnesota...

[Machu505]

a fail to see where I mentioned anything about religion?? Or is it just a bad assumption on your part that all conservatives are religious wingnuts???

He was pointing out that the most common arguments against same-sex marriage are based on religion.

[Machu505]

I'm from Iowa and I support this 100% If they love each other than why not get married? My Uncle Larry is gay, but it's too bad he lives in Minnesota...

It makes me the happiest to see younger people like you and I supporting same-sex marriage. It makes me excited for the future.

[tambam]

Yay. I'm proud of Iowa. :-)

[Liter-O-Cola]

a fail to see where I mentioned anything about religion?? Or is it just a bad assumption on your part that all conservatives are religious wingnuts???

I actually wasn't attacking you at all. It's hard not to come off as sarcastic in threads but I was being genuine, sorry if you fee like I was offending you -- I wasn't.

[porttheman]

Im quite proud of my state. Now if only they can get rid of the cigarette tax.

[BigWille24302]

I look at this two ways. As a strong Christian, I obviously don't approve of gay marriage. I think that God made marriage a sacred thing between one man and one woman. I also think that this country was built on Christian values and that the founders would not have approved of same sex marriage.

but...as a United States citizen in 2009, I know that there is a separation between church and state and I think that legally everyone should have the same rights. So, not to offend anyone, I'm not happy about this but..I am content because it is legally correct.

[zion the lion]

I look at this two ways. As a strong Christian, I obviously don't approve of gay marriage. I think that God made marriage a sacred thing between one man and one woman. I also think that this country was built on Christian values and that the founders would not have approved of same sex marriage.

but...as a United States citizen in 2009, I know that there is a separation between church and state and I think that legally everyone should have the same rights. So, not to offend anyone, I'm not happy about this but..I am content because it is legally correct.

I dont know how christian values or god even became an argument for marriage, the founding fathers would have probably flip out about the fact that our president is black, interracial marriage is legal, women can vote, and that we have child labor laws now. But whatever, I think its a good thing that you at least see this from a legal stand point.

[nashiscash1324]

no thank you senor

[BigWille24302]

I dont know how christian values or god even became an argument for marriage, the founding fathers would have probably flip out about the fact that our president is black, interracial marriage is legal, women can vote, and that we have child labor laws now. But whatever, I think its a good thing that you at least see this from a legal stand point.


Well, in the bible it basically states that a man being with another man is an abomination and that marriage is only for one man and one woman. Now, I'm not trying to force that on anyone, I'm just replying to your statement. That's just was my religion says about homosexuality and marriage.

Also, there is a difference between the founders caring about gay marriage and them caring about Obama being black or women voting. They wouldn't approve of a black president or womens rights only because that was considered wrong in their society. I think if they lived in todays society they couldn't care less about Obama's skin color. The thing is, they wouldn't approve of gay marriage because it was wrong in their society and their religion told them it was wrong. So, if they were alive today they still wouldn't approve of it.

But, again im not mad about this or anything. As long as it doesn't affect me and they are happy about it, I'm content.

[Xe1881]

iowa took the blinders off.

[Xe1881]

Well, in the bible it basically states that a man being with another man is an abomination and that marriage is only for one man and one woman. Now, I'm not trying to force that on anyone, I'm just replying to your statement. That's just was my religion says about homosexuality and marriage.

Also, there is a difference between the founders caring about gay marriage and them caring about Obama being black or women voting. They wouldn't approve of a black president or womens rights only because that was considered wrong in their society. I think if they lived in todays society they couldn't care less about Obama's skin color. The thing is, they wouldn't approve of gay marriage because it was wrong in their society and their religion told them it was wrong. So, if they were alive today they still wouldn't approve of it.

But, again im not mad about this or anything. As long as it doesn't affect me and they are happy about it, I'm content.

not trying to start anything but dude. anything that "basically states" anything aren't really stating it. It doesn't state that ANYWHERE in the bible. the bible was translated from greek which doesn't translate directly into english. There are tons of words which we have no meaning for any vice versa. maybe that line of scripture refers to not treating a guy like you would a lady and so forth. it isn't as black and white as christians try to make it. love is love.

[zion the lion]

Well, in the bible it basically states that a man being with another man is an abomination and that marriage is only for one man and one woman. Now, I'm not trying to force that on anyone, I'm just replying to your statement. That's just was my religion says about homosexuality and marriage.

Also, there is a difference between the founders caring about gay marriage and them caring about Obama being black or women voting. They wouldn't approve of a black president or womens rights only because that was considered wrong in their society. I think if they lived in todays society they couldn't care less about Obama's skin color. The thing is, they wouldn't approve of gay marriage because it was wrong in their society and their religion told them it was wrong. So, if they were alive today they still wouldn't approve of it.

But, again im not mad about this or anything. As long as it doesn't affect me and they are happy about it, I'm content.

Theres a lot that I could ask about that first paragraph but it would belong in the God thread. But religion has nothing to do with marriage in my opinion, and I'm glad its legalized in Iowa because its a step in the right direction.

[BigWille24302]

not trying to start anything but dude. anything that "basically states" anything aren't really stating it. It doesn't state that ANYWHERE in the bible. the bible was translated from greek which doesn't translate directly into english. There are tons of words which we have no meaning for any vice versa. maybe that line of scripture refers to not treating a guy like you would a lady and so forth. it isn't as black and white as christians try to make it. love is love.


'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.'
(Leviticus 18:22)
I stand corrected. I said abomination, while it says detestable. Still, that literally relates to homosexuality. And that is where the Christian view of it comes from. And that is my view of it.

But, like I said before, as a US citizen I know there is separation and I am okay with them making it legal. I really do hope that all the gay people are happy. Which is ironic for me to say, since gay means happy haha

[mrxstripes]

I still can't believe all of the US isn't, but it's a great step in the right direction!

I seriously cannot wait for forty years or so from now when people are looking back and going 'Wow, how was gay marriage even an issue back then?' just like we do with the civil rights movement, it's exactly the same. Civil union is simply, to me, another way of saying "equal but separate", and I thought the US called bullshit on that years ago.
I'm so glad to see this though, I just wish it would happen everywhere.

[Charles777]

How is gay marriage an "abomination"?

[zion the lion]

'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.'
(Leviticus 18:22)
I stand corrected. I said abomination, while it says detestable. Still, that literally relates to homosexuality. And that is where the Christian view of it comes from. And that is my view of it.

But, like I said before, as a US citizen I know there is separation and I am okay with them making it legal. I really do hope that all the gay people are happy. Which is ironic for me to say, since gay means happy haha

I cant tell if youre the type of person who picks and chooses what they want to follow in the bible but really? The same book says that women arent allowed to refuse to have sex with their husbands and women are not allowed to teach because it is an abomination.

[phillipjacob]

"it's going to be the baby steps that ratify into a snowball effect." As a christian myself living in Southern Indiana, I'm constantly ashamed of my faith and the hate, ignorance, and stupidity I hear on a daily basis. When Are the Majority Of Christians/Etc going to read their bible as a context of love instead of hate? I read a proverb once that told how a rich man would rob a beggar and a poor man would offer what he had to give. I'm not sure of the correlation of words between that and the legalties of marriage between het/homesexual...but I guess you could take in the context of progressive thinking versus backwords thoughts.

[ssion1984]

Theres a lot that I could ask about that first paragraph but it would belong in the God thread. But religion has nothing to do with marriage in my opinion, and I'm glad its legalized in Iowa because its a step in the right direction.

How does religion have nothing to do with marriage? Maybe not according to your beliefs but it talks about it in the bible, I'm pretty sure as well as many other religions have a serious attitude towards it, whether or not they see it as a sacrament or just an earthly contract...

And yes. Praise the Lord that Iowa has taken a step forward! I'm right next door in Nebraska and this makes me so proud of the midwest.

And as for people like Austin STRAWHACKER or whatever that fool's name was, there are bigots everywhere. And someone said something about sending them to Alabama, apparently that state is getting more gay-friendly as well. Shocking, I know. I think that the gay rights battle is going to take a long time, but some day gays and lesbians will have equal rights as the rest of WASP$ males. The civil rights issue for all Americans is still underway. Progress. Amen.

[BigWille24302]

I know that the old testament is very...difficult to understand because it was obviously a different time but it states the same thing in the new testament.
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor
adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves
nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit
the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their
women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way
the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed
with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men,
and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
(Romans 1:26-27)


I really am sorry for starting all this though...I was just trying to show the view of a
conservative christian on the matter. This is just the way I stand on gay marriage. Im entitled
to my opinion, just like everyone else

[alecesp09]

could honestly care less.. neat to see my home state in national news though!

[BigWille24302]

And, just to clear things up once and for all, I know that it is legally correct for us to have gay marriage and I am content with that. Sorry for starting a religious debate.

[ssion1984]

Yeah, I am so ashamed of people of my religion - granted, they don't all share the exact views and level of faith that I have, but it's still a source of shame. Kind of like guilt by association. And it hurts. philipjacob has the right idea. Plus, it's not only reading the bible in a light of love instead of hate [insert Prop 8:The Musical here], but also reading the Bible with a limited view of the actual meanings within. Check out For The Bible Tells Me So. Great film. I laughed, I cried, I was angry - and I think that it would be able to open minds that are on the borderline of accepting gay marriage. Yeah. Some propaganda haha - of peace and love.

[BigWille24302]

Yeah, I am so ashamed of people of my religion

I hope you're not referring to me.. :(

Im not gonna lie, I don't think homosexuality is right but it has nothing to do with hate or a limited view of the bible. I just don't think it's right and my religion tells me the same.

[ssion1984]

And, just to clear things up once and for all, I know that it is legally correct for us to have gay marriage and I am content with that. Sorry for starting a religious debate.

nah it's fine. Have your own belief. But a question: what version of the bible did you quote from? No where in mine does it say the word homosexual, which couldn't possibly be a correct translation, considering the word didn't really exist until, what was it, the 19th century? "Karl-Maria Kertbeny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl-Maria_Kertbeny) coined the term homosexual in 1869 in a pamphlet arguing against a Prussian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Prussia) anti-sodomy law." - via Wikipedia

That is just to argue linguistics, not your belief by the way. Although, I do disagree with your belief. =]

[ssion1984]

I hope you're not referring to me.. :(

Im not gonna lie, I don't think homosexuality is right but it has nothing to do with hate or a limited view of the bible. I just don't think it's right and my religion tells me the same.

Well, as long as your not holding up picket signs saying "God hate ****", I think there can be a mutual respect between the both of us. And if you're not a gay-basher that call themselves Christian. Obviously the antithesis of Christ's teachings.

[BigWille24302]

just because I don't agree with homosexuality doesn't mean I don't love them like I love all people. Like Christ taught us. I just don't agree with it like any other sin (in my opinon, of course)

[BigWille24302]

And my Bible is NIV. You bring up a great point though about the term homosexual. I wonder what the original translated term is...

[briXinRhands]

I dont know how christian values or god even became an argument for marriage, the founding fathers would have probably flip out about the fact that our president is black, interracial marriage is legal, women can vote, and that we have child labor laws now. But whatever, I think its a good thing that you at least see this from a legal stand point.

you have been consistently making the most sense in this thread. every time i want to comment on something, Zion is already there saying it first. :thumbup:

[aoftbsten]

47. ;-)

But California changed back with prop 8, didn't it?

[Khaos]

I look at this two ways. As a strong Christian, I obviously don't approve of gay marriage. I think that God made marriage a sacred thing between one man and one woman. I also think that this country was built on Christian values and that the founders would not have approved of same sex marriage.

but...as a United States citizen in 2009, I know that there is a separation between church and state and I think that legally everyone should have the same rights. So, not to offend anyone, I'm not happy about this but..I am content because it is legally correct.

Wiki Thomas Jefferson, he was just about atheist. And God did not make marriage. The church didn't even recognize marriage until the middle ages. Nuff said.

[Khaos]

"it's going to be the baby steps that ratify into a snowball effect." As a christian myself living in Southern Indiana, I'm constantly ashamed of my faith and the hate, ignorance, and stupidity I hear on a daily basis. When Are the Majority Of Christians/Etc going to read their bible as a context of love instead of hate? I read a proverb once that told how a rich man would rob a beggar and a poor man would offer what he had to give. I'm not sure of the correlation of words between that and the legalties of marriage between het/homesexual...but I guess you could take in the context of progressive thinking versus backwords thoughts.

amen

[caityconundrum]

Intolerance can kiss my ass.

[Khaos]

I know that the old testament is very...difficult to understand because it was obviously a different time but it states the same thing in the new testament.
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor
adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves
nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit
the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their
women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way
the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed
with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men,
and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
(Romans 1:26-27)


I really am sorry for starting all this though...I was just trying to show the view of a
conservative christian on the matter. This is just the way I stand on gay marriage. Im entitled
to my opinion, just like everyone else

I am sorry that your uninformed. Read the King James Version

1Cr 6:09 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (this term does not mean homosexual)


1Cr 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


1Cr 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

[Xe1881]

'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.'
(Leviticus 18:22)
I stand corrected. I said abomination, while it says detestable. Still, that literally relates to homosexuality. And that is where the Christian view of it comes from. And that is my view of it.

But, like I said before, as a US citizen I know there is separation and I am okay with them making it legal. I really do hope that all the gay people are happy. Which is ironic for me to say, since gay means happy haha


hence why i said " the bible was translated from greek which doesn't translate directly into english. There are tons of words which we have no meaning for any vice versa."

the bible wasn't faxed down from God. it was written by a bunch of catholic men who decided what they would put in.

[BigWille24302]

If the term doesn't mean homosexual why would they change it to that for the NIV version?

[briXinRhands]

just because I don't agree with homosexuality doesn't mean I don't love them like I love all people. Like Christ taught us. I just don't agree with it like any other sin (in my opinon, of course)

To me that's like saying existing is a sin. People choose to be adulterers, people do not choose to be homosexual. Many things in the bible do not translate to modern times, like many of the previous posts have been pointing out. I know it sounds like I am attacking your religion, but i'm really just questioning your interpretation of it. Do you really truly believe that millions and millions of people simply choose to be homosexual? And how do you respond to some of the posts regarding some other bible teachings being taken literally in this day and age? I'm just curious of your viewpoint, not trying to instigate anything.

[Khaos]

If the term doesn't mean homosexual why would they change it to that for the NIV version?

Because it can be inturprited different ways :P

[ssion1984]

If the term doesn't mean homosexual why would they change it to that for the NIV version?

Because it is was assumed among a consensus of conservative Christians [look up the translators at NIV.com or whatever it is called] to be the easiet to understand, since it is a PARAPHRASE. They did not translate from the original Hebrew and Greek word for word [which many older catholic and protestant bibles have done]. Bibles such as NIV are put in a context of idioms and expressions in a particular way - definitely using the common man's lack of ancient language and custom to fit to their ideals more or less. It's still the bible, but I just disagree with taking THEIR word for it. =]

[BigWille24302]

I honestly do belive that being homosexual is a choice. And my religion is the main factor for that so noone will agree with me but here it is:

As a Christian who believes that homosexuality is a sin, how could people possibly be born homosexual? That would mean God is basically raising people for the slaughter. If being gay is not a choice then going to hell is not a choice and that is wrong. If God created people gay, that means he is creating people who have no chance to get into heaven, since homosexuality is a sin. If its a choice, then they have the hope to turn away from their sin and ask for forgiveness.

Obviously that is my opinion. That is how I have always rationalized it.

[BigWille24302]

I am sorry that your uninformed. Read the King James Version

1Cr 6:09 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (this term does not mean homosexual)


1Cr 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


1Cr 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.


If you are gonna post the King James version of the first verse, why didnt you do it of the second verse also? Ill do it for you. This is the King James Version of Romans 1:27

"And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."

That sounds like sin to me

[briXinRhands]

I honestly do belive that being homosexual is a choice. And my religion is the main factor for that so noone will agree with me but here it is:

As a Christian who believes that homosexuality is a sin, how could people possibly be born homosexual? That would mean God is basically raising people for the slaughter. If being gay is not a choice then going to hell is not a choice and that is wrong. If God created people gay, that means he is creating people who have no chance to get into heaven, since homosexuality is a sin. If its a choice, then they have the hope to turn away from their sin and ask for forgiveness.

Obviously that is my opinion. That is how I have always rationalized it.

Well, I completely 100% disagree with everything you just said and your rationale...but that is totally your right to believe that. Thank you for answering my question, have a good night!

[ssion1984]

hence why i said " the bible was translated from greek which doesn't translate directly into english. There are tons of words which we have no meaning for any vice versa."

the bible wasn't faxed down from God. it was written by a bunch of catholic men who decided what they would put in.

Yo. Don't be dissing the catholic monks. Back then, they were Christianity, until the schism with the East and then when people like Henry decided he was going to start his own religion because he couldn't get a divorce. =] haha But Martin Luther was pretty cool. Calvin, not so much.

Seriously though, although Catholicism has this truly insane thing against gays, I'm still Catholic. And I'm gay. And I'm free to have my own beliefs because I truly believe that it's okay. I mean, there were a lot of awesome heretics - Joan of Arc, my favourite. =]

[Khaos]

I honestly do belive that being homosexual is a choice. And my religion is the main factor for that so noone will agree with me but here it is:

As a Christian who believes that homosexuality is a sin, how could people possibly be born homosexual? That would mean God is basically raising people for the slaughter. If being gay is not a choice then going to hell is not a choice and that is wrong. If God created people gay, that means he is creating people who have no chance to get into heaven, since homosexuality is a sin. If its a choice, then they have the hope to turn away from their sin and ask for forgiveness.

Obviously that is my opinion. That is how I have always rationalized it.

You are so young and so naive. I consider myself Christian and I don't believe in the things you do. Go out into the world see things, learn, open your mind to new things. Im assuming that you probably went to the same church your whole life maybe 2 if you lucky. Go see other peoples points of view other churches other religions. I am not saying to change religions or anything but gather more information and don't let one small town where everyone thinks the same form your opinion. Looks at things objectively. Believe me EVERYONE puts there spin on things, its rare for people to truly unbiased, most of the time it is unintentional.

[ssion1984]

If you are gonna post the King James version of the first verse, why didnt you do it of the second verse also? Ill do it for you. This is the King James Version of Romans 1:27

"And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."

That sounds like sin to me

It sounds like prostitution but I could be wrong - "recompence of their error".

[ssion1984]

You are so young and so naive. I consider myself Christian and I don't believe in the things you do. Go out into the world see things, learn, open your mind to new things. Im assuming that you probably went to the same church your whole life maybe 2 if you lucky. Go see other peoples points of view other churches other religions. I am not saying to change religions or anything but gather more information and don't let one small town where everyone thinks the same form your opinion. Looks at things objectively. Believe me EVERYONE puts there spin on things, its rare for people to truly unbiased, most of the time it is unintentional.


I love your words sir. Couldn't concur more.

[briXinRhands]

You are so young and so naive. I consider myself Christian and I don't believe in the things you do. Go out into the world see things, learn, open your mind to new things. Im assuming that you probably went to the same church your whole life maybe 2 if you lucky. Go see other peoples points of view other churches other religions. I am not saying to change religions or anything but gather more information and don't let one small town where everyone thinks the same form your opinion. Looks at things objectively. Believe me EVERYONE puts there spin on things, its rare for people to truly unbiased, most of the time it is unintentional.

thiiiiiis

[Analog Rebellion]

Who gives a shit what the Bible says? Seriously. The Bible says a lot of dumb shit that most Christians choose to ignore. Ignore the ONE line about being gay in the Old Testament, like you do the other Old Testament garbage, and move on with your lives so that homosexuals can move on with theirs. Problem solved.

[ssion1984]

Who gives a shit what the Bible says? Seriously. The Bible says a lot of dumb shit that most Christians choose to ignore. Ignore the ONE line about being gay in the Old Testament, like you do the other Old Testament garbage, and move on with your lives so that homosexuals can move on with theirs. Problem solved.


A lot of people do. Including a lot of gay people.
Ignoring things does not solve problems and you're
kind of insulting the gays who want to get married in a Christian church.

[BigWille24302]

You are so young and so naive. I consider myself Christian and I don't believe in the things you do. Go out into the world see things, learn, open your mind to new things. Im assuming that you probably went to the same church your whole life maybe 2 if you lucky. Go see other peoples points of view other churches other religions. I am not saying to change religions or anything but gather more information and don't let one small town where everyone thinks the same form your opinion. Looks at things objectively. Believe me EVERYONE puts there spin on things, its rare for people to truly unbiased, most of the time it is unintentional.


Why is it that because your opinion differs than mine I am naive? Don't try to change me, I didn't try to change you.


and btw, I have been a member of an Anderson, Grace Brethren, and Lutheran church. So i've had different view points. And I spent a month last summer in San Fransico. I lived in the middle of a gay community. I have "opened my mind to new things," and I still think that homosexuality is wrong. I, being the main point. My opinion

[BigWille24302]

Who gives a shit what the Bible says? Seriously. The Bible says a lot of dumb shit that most Christians choose to ignore. Ignore the ONE line about being gay in the Old Testament, like you do the other Old Testament garbage, and move on with your lives so that homosexuals can move on with theirs. Problem solved.


Well you're wrong in saying that even if Leviticus was the only chapter that references homosexuality because obviously many straight and gay people care about what the bible says. But anyways, Romans is a chapter in the new testament. Nice try though ;-)

[J.C.]

I honestly do belive that being homosexual is a choice. And my religion is the main factor for that so noone will agree with me but here it is:

As a Christian who believes that homosexuality is a sin, how could people possibly be born homosexual? That would mean God is basically raising people for the slaughter. If being gay is not a choice then going to hell is not a choice and that is wrong. If God created people gay, that means he is creating people who have no chance to get into heaven, since homosexuality is a sin. If its a choice, then they have the hope to turn away from their sin and ask for forgiveness.

Obviously that is my opinion. That is how I have always rationalized it.

1. When did you choose to be heterosexual? When you make the claim that everyone is born heterosexual and are naturally attracted to the opposite sex, what is the motive you are attributing to gay people? Why would they choose to be with people you're saying they find naturally unattractive? If you're saying homosexuality is unnatural, are you saying it's impossible for anyone to be attracted to someone of the same sex? Why are there instances of homosexuality in other animals?

2. Perhaps, if there is an actual God, he/she/it is not the giant homophobe you want to believe he/she/it is. Perhaps God made different types of people so it'd be easier to weed out who the judgmental douchebags are whom would hate somebody over something harmless that doesn't effect their own life.

3. If you want to give God credit for every individual human spawned on this Earth, does he get the blame for any of the bad people? Or are his/her/it's powers just confined to pregnancies? Is it God's decision whenever one ends in a miscarriage?

4. Religion is not a substitute for the logical component of an argument. It doesn't matter that you've been told something over and over again for as long as you've been on this Earth. That doesn't in any way constitute proof or validate your line of thinking. It just means you've heard the same thing over and over. You're free to personally believe whatever you want, but just know that if you want a discussion(that actually has potential) about real issues and how they should and can be addressed in the times we live in, you'll need to come with more than Bible verses.

[briXinRhands]

Why is it that because your opinion differs than mine I am naive? Don't try to change me, I didn't try to change you.


and btw, I have been a member of an Anderson, Grace Brethren, and Lutheran church. So i've had different view points. And I spent a month last summer in San Fransico. I lived in the middle of a gay community. I have "opened my mind to new things," and I still think that homosexuality is wrong. I, being the main point. My opinion

just because you spent a month in the middle of a gay community doesn't mean you had an open mind about it. but you are right, it is your opinion and your belief.

[Khaos]

thiiiiiis

this what?

[briXinRhands]

this what?

I agree with 'this'

[Khaos]

Why is it that because your opinion differs than mine I am naive? Don't try to change me, I didn't try to change you.


and btw, I have been a member of an Anderson, Grace Brethren, and Lutheran church. So i've had different view points. And I spent a month last summer in San Fransico. I lived in the middle of a gay community. I have "opened my mind to new things," and I still think that homosexuality is wrong. I, being the main point. My opinion

Your naive cuz your 18 and your not Dan Hunter (an old soul), nuff said!

[ssion1984]

Who gives a shit what the Bible says? Seriously. The Bible says a lot of dumb shit that most Christians choose to ignore. Ignore the ONE line about being gay in the Old Testament, like you do the other Old Testament garbage, and move on with your lives so that homosexuals can move on with theirs. Problem solved.

Pretends to be open to diversity, but clearly chooses to simply lable the Bible as "dumb shit"! = Tries too hard to be an alternative thinker and fails at it.
Why is it that because your opinion differs than mine I am naive? Don't try to change me, I didn't try to change you.


and btw, I have been a member of an Anderson, Grace Brethren, and Lutheran church. So i've had different view points. And I spent a month last summer in San Fransico. I lived in the middle of a gay community. I have "opened my mind to new things," and I still think that homosexuality is wrong. I, being the main point. My opinion

Attempts to be open to diversity! Different viewpoints! Has own opinion = Tries to think as an individual!
Romans is a chapter in the new testament. Nice try though ;-)

Ah. Wit. Thank you.

[phillipjacob]

in unrelated topic of news, bigolewillywillwillyworm there reminded me to listen to some fresh prince so um thanks for that

[Khaos]

Who gives a shit what the Bible says? Seriously. The Bible says a lot of dumb shit that most Christians choose to ignore. Ignore the ONE line about being gay in the Old Testament, like you do the other Old Testament garbage, and move on with your lives so that homosexuals can move on with theirs. Problem solved.

brilliant, people should read The Jefferson Bible (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible), or The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible)

[BigWille24302]

1. When did you choose to be heterosexual? When you make the claim that everyone is born heterosexual and are naturally attracted to the opposite sex, what is the motive you are attributing to gay people? Why would they choose to be with people you're saying they find naturally unattractive? If you're saying homosexuality is unnatural, are you saying it's impossible for anyone to be attracted to someone of the same sex? Why are there instances of homosexuality in other animals?

2. Perhaps, if there is an actual God, he/she/it is not the giant homophobe you want to believe he/she/it is. Perhaps God made different types of people so it'd be easier to weed out who the judgmental douchebags are whom would hate somebody over something harmless that doesn't effect their own life.

3. If you want to give God credit for every individual human spawned on this Earth, does he get the blame for any of the bad people? Or are his/her/it's powers just confined to pregnancies? Is it God's decision whenever one ends in a miscarriage?

4. Religion is not a substitute for the logical component of an argument. It doesn't matter that you've been told something over and over again for as long as you've been on this Earth. That doesn't in any way constitute proof or validate your line of thinking. It just means you've heard the same thing over and over. You're free to personally believe whatever you want, but just know that if you want a discussion(that actually has potential) about real issues and how they should and can be addressed in the times we live in, you'll need to come with more than Bible verses.


Well, here we go...

1) I never chose to be heterosexual. Being heterosexual is the natural way. And obviously it's not impossible for you to be attracted to the same sex because, like any other sin, you can fall for that temptation.

2) I wouldn't say God is a homophobe. God isn't scared of anything, being God and all. And im assuming I am one of the "judgmental douchebags whom would hate somebody over something harmless that doesn't effect their own life." I already stated earlier that I love gay people as much as anyone else. That is Christ's teaching. And your little speil about "judgemental douchebags" could apply to you, since my opinion on homosexuality doesn't affect your life in the least.

3) God definitely gets credit for every single life on the Earth. He created every single person. And he gave them free will. So no, He is not responsible for all the bad people. Everyone has the free will to commit sins.

4) All I did was say that legally I believe that gay marriage should be legal but morally I believe that it shouldn't. Then I was asked why I believe this and I provided explanations behind my logic which came from bible verses because I am a Christian and my moral beliefs come from the bible.

I think it's a sad world we live in where the same people who preach over and over again that everyone has their own right to do whatever they please and think whatever they want will cut down someone like me for having a different opinion than them. And they say the christian church is hypocritical...good night. God Bless

[Khaos]

Pretends to be open to diversity, but clearly chooses to simply lable the Bible as "dumb shit"! = Tries too hard to be an alternative thinker and fails at it.


He is saying that it is stupid to force one poorly translated book's view on an entire country.

[J.C.]

1) I never chose to be heterosexual. Being heterosexual is the natural way. And obviously it's not impossible for you to be attracted to the same sex because, like any other sin, you can fall for that temptation.

You can't be tempted by something you're unattracted to. Are you admitting you've been tempted to fuck a dude?

How is heterosexuality the 'natural way' when homosexuality exists in nature? Do you not understand the definition of natural?

I wouldn't say God is a homophobe. God isn't scared of anything, being God and all. And im assuming I am one of the "judgmental douchebags whom would hate somebody over something harmless that doesn't effect their own life." I already stated earlier that I love gay people as much as anyone else. That is Christ's teaching. And your little speil about "judgemental douchebags" could apply to you, since my opinion on homosexuality doesn't affect your life in the least.

If you want to make the argument that you were born with the belief that homosexuality is a sin and you can't help but feel that way, go right ahead. Otherwise, I'll continue drawing a moral line between choices people make and things they can't control.

God definitely gets credit for every single life on the Earth. He created every single person. And he gave them free will. So no, He is not responsible for all the bad people. Everyone has the free will to commit sins.

God can apparently make us naturally attracted to people of the opposite sex(according to your argument). How about God makes some people naturally opposed to murdering other people?

You also conveniently avoided my point about miscarriages, which occur naturally and at far too high a rate. What's God's excuse for those suckers?

I think it's a sad world we live in where the same people who preach over and over again that everyone has their own right to do whatever they please and think whatever they want will cut down someone like me for having a different opinion than them. And they say the christian church is hypocritical...good night. God Bless

I've read this last quote about 5 times and still don't see the logic in your point.

Of course you're free to believe whatever you want. That doesn't mean your opinion isn't illogical/misguided/retarded.

[caityconundrum]

I try to be as open minded as possible and realize that "to each their own" applies to everyone, so I do believe that everyone can believe in whatever they want about gay rights, abortion rights or what have you, even if it includes beliefs that I find wrong, disrespectful or intolerant. But I don't think it should be up to the public to decide what people can or can't do in their own lives, ever.

[Lueda Alia]

I look at this two ways. As a strong Christian, I obviously don't approve of gay marriage. I think that God made marriage a sacred thing between one man and one woman. I also think that this country was built on Christian values and that the founders would not have approved of same sex marriage.
Your country was also built on "values" that considered black people to be inferior/slaves, but that is no longer the case. I'm guessing you think that it was wrong for that opinion to change? Because if not, then you're a hypocrite, at least concerning the last thing you just said (which I bolded).

[Lueda Alia]

I honestly do belive that being homosexual is a choice. And my religion is the main factor for that so noone will agree with me but here it is:

As a Christian who believes that homosexuality is a sin, how could people possibly be born homosexual? That would mean God is basically raising people for the slaughter. If being gay is not a choice then going to hell is not a choice and that is wrong. If God created people gay, that means he is creating people who have no chance to get into heaven, since homosexuality is a sin. If its a choice, then they have the hope to turn away from their sin and ask for forgiveness.

Obviously that is my opinion. That is how I have always rationalized it.
Could it be that God doesn't view homosexuality as a sin? You might want to take that into consideration.

[zion the lion]

you have been consistently making the most sense in this thread. every time i want to comment on something, Zion is already there saying it first. :thumbup:

Is this sarcasm because if it is I will cut you to pieces...but if its a compliment then aww thank you!

[BigWille24302]

Oh wow...I can't have the belief that homosexuality is sin but you can tell me my opinion is retarded. Thats great.

You can't be tempted by something you're unattracted to. Are you admitting you've been tempted to fuck a dude?

I never said that God made us so we are not attracted to the same sex. Obviously that can happen since there are gay people. I like how you have such a negative way of asking if I have ever been attracted to a male. Are you sure im the only one who doesn't think homosexuality is right?

How is heterosexuality the 'natural way' when homosexuality exists in nature? Do you not understand the definition of natural?

There are a heck of a lot more straight animals than there are gay ones. There are always the odd balls of the groups.

If you want to make the argument that you were born with the belief that homosexuality is a sin and you can't help but feel that way, go right ahead. Otherwise, I'll continue drawing a moral line between choices people make and things they can't control.

I want to make that argument. And because you accused me of avoiding your point about miscarriages, I will now accuse you of avoiding my point about you being a "judgmental douchebag"

God can apparently make us naturally attracted to people of the opposite sex(according to your argument). How about God makes some people naturally opposed to murdering other people?

God originally made a man and a woman to be together. That is just the way that it is. He makes us (in the sense of forming us) to be attracted to the opposite sex, but he cannot make us (in the sense of forcing us) to follow that. hence the free will. Same goes with murdering.

You also conveniently avoided my point about miscarriages, which occur naturally and at far too high a rate. What's God's excuse for those suckers?

You're ace in the hole, I suppose. I don't have an answer to why miscarriages happen. Noone does, except God. In my belief, everything happens for a reason. Miscarriages are awful awful awful things. My small group leader at church had one before he had his first son and was absolutely crushed, but 7 people came to Christ through the whole thing. God has the master plan.

I've read this last quote about 5 times and still don't see the logic in your point.

The point is, you all say to me that everyone, including gay people, have the right to do and think what they want. I totally agree with that. I think that homosexuality is wrong, and everyone gets on me about it and tells me that my beliefs are wrong. I never tried to change anyone else's beliefs. What happened to doing and thinking what you want?

[briXinRhands]

Is this sarcasm because if it is I will cut you to pieces...but if its a compliment then aww thank you!

no no that was serious, you're welcome. reading it back it does sound sarcastic though haha

[BigWille24302]

ATTN: Lueda Alia (http://absolutepunk.net/member.php?u=9211), I already adressed my opinion about both of those points earlier in the discussion. You probably should of read through the whole thing before jumping in and attacking me.

[Dicebox]

I am a Christian but i think gay marriage should be legal. I must admit, I didn't always think this, I actually voted yes on 8, and now i feel bad about it. I think that marriage was meant in the way that God intended it (between one man and one woman who have never had sex, and commit to only each other). However, I've come to realize that There is is a difference between marriage recognized by State and marriage recognized by God. I used to think that because gay marriage was founded on the basis of sin, that it shouldn't be allowed at all. Then I started thinking about all the marriages that i accept as just fine. Between people who have divorced several times, have been sleeping together before marriage, and who are not fully committed to each other. I realized that these marriages are founded on sin as well. Do I want those marriages to be illegal? No, of course not! I started thinking that i cannot oppose my beliefs on someone else, because they don't have to believe it, and are not bound by the same law that I am bound.

To the people that would say homosexual sex is not a sin. Would you also say that the Bible states that sex before marriage is a sin? If you think that sex before marriage is a sin, then you must also agree that homosexual sex is also a sin.

BigWille24302, I would like to ask you a question about how you believe someone becomes "saved" a few of your posts have indicated that you might think that being saved comes from the quality of your character, and the less sinning you do. The Bible clearly states that we are saved by God's grace, not our deeds.
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16

Can you say for certain that a gay person cannot go to heaven? Do you think your sin is different than other sin? Will an alcoholic rot in hell for all eternity if he believes that Jesus died on the cross for his sins? The Bible says that King David was "A man after God's own heart" yet David committed adultery, sent for the woman's husband to be killed. He had many wives, and he did many other things that would definitely cause him so be cast into the "depths of hell!" lol. God called him a man after his own heart because he trusted God in everything he did.

I believe that having gay sex is a sin. I also believe that lusting after Megan Fox, like i just did, is also a sin. The point is that everyone can be saved and accepted by God's grace.

Getting back to marriage, In today's society, there are benefits to being married as opposed to being in a civil union. So it's not fair that adult consenting people wouldn't be allowed these same rights. You might say, "well lets give them all the same rights, just don't call it marriage," at this point the only difference between man and female marriage vs. male and male, or female and female, is just a name. At this point why cant we distinguish between marriages that God recognizes, and marriage that the State recognizes.

I've been in your boat before man. Dig deep on this.

[Lueda Alia]

ATTN: Lueda Alia (http://absolutepunk.net/member.php?u=9211), I already adressed my opinion about both of those points earlier in the discussion. You probably should of read through the whole thing before jumping in and attacking me.

I'm not attacking you. I'm simply pointing out the flaws in your arguments/beliefs.

I'll look at your previous posts tomorrow/later today.

[zion the lion]

no no that was serious, you're welcome. reading it back it does sound sarcastic though haha

oh no I just woke up from a nap so I wasnt all awake, plus people are really sarcastic all the time.

[briXinRhands]

How is heterosexuality the 'natural way' when homosexuality exists in nature? Do you not understand the definition of natural?

There are a heck of a lot more straight animals than there are gay ones. There are always the odd balls of the groups.

wow. didn't know you were the authoritative voice on animal sexuality.

so since when does simply having a majority make you correct, since when does being the minority make you unnatural?

I'm enjoying reading this discussion but I had to chime in and tell you that this statement is ridiculous.

[Jason Tate]

Am I the only one that once I read "God" in any "counter argument" immediately skip the post? Just me?

[briXinRhands]

oh no I just woke up from a nap so I wasnt all awake, plus people are really sarcastic all the time.

no worries, hard to tell through text.

in an unrelated matter, what kind of crazy nap schedule are you crazy Alaskans on? lol

[zion the lion]

I honestly do belive that being homosexual is a choice. And my religion is the main factor for that so noone will agree with me but here it is:

As a Christian who believes that homosexuality is a sin, how could people possibly be born homosexual? That would mean God is basically raising people for the slaughter. If being gay is not a choice then going to hell is not a choice and that is wrong. If God created people gay, that means he is creating people who have no chance to get into heaven, since homosexuality is a sin. If its a choice, then they have the hope to turn away from their sin and ask for forgiveness.

Obviously that is my opinion. That is how I have always rationalized it.

I was going back through the pages I missed and found this and I wonder...Did you ever think that maybe God made gay people as a form of birth control? I mean he made straight people so that they could make other babies, and there werent condoms around 2,000 years ago, and we all know the pull out method doesnt really work. But I also have to say that my little brother is gay, and he's been gay since the begining of time. It's something that I dont think he chose to be gay because it hurt his family a lot (his mom is a sunday school teacher and our dad is homophobic) and its hard on him. Its almost insulting for you to say that my brother is going through all of that crap because he chose to.

[Dicebox]

Am I the only one that once I read "God" in any "counter argument" immediately skip the post? Just me?
lol why? isn't that like fighting ignorance with more ignorance? that is, if you believe that anyone that uses God in their argument is ignorant.

[BigWille24302]

To Dicebox: (because I don't feel like quoting)

That was an absolutely fantastic post. I will definitely think about what you've said about normal marriages being founded on sin also. That is an excellent point that I have overlooked. Obviously, that doesn't change the fact that I think homosexuality is a sin, but it does make me question my belief on it being legal or not. (though, in my unbiased political/legal opinion I already think it should be legal.)

But I can give you an answer now on the latter question you asked. Im sorry if it seemed that way through my earlier post but I in no way shape or form believe that deeds get you into heaven. I know that we can only go to heaven through God's grace. I feel dumb now if my earlier post made it seem like I thought any different.

I have wrestled with my belief on homosexuals going to heaven though...If someone is homosexual and a christian, then they must believe that homosexuality is not a sin. Therefore, when they ask for forgiveness, they are not asking for forgiveness for their homosexuality. Now, in my opinion, homosexuality is a sin. So if a homosexual asks for forgiveness but continues to be homosexual and then dies, do they go to heaven? This I don't know. If you asked me, they would continue to be sinning without forgiveness for it. I don't know...

[BigWille24302]

To Zion:

Yes, I do believe that your brother chose to be gay.

[zion the lion]

no worries, hard to tell through text.

in an unrelated matter, what kind of crazy nap schedule are you crazy Alaskans on? lol

I'm homeschooled now so I dont really have any type of sleep schedule, but today I woke up early (at noon) and I was really tired so I took my nap and now its almost midnight so I'm having my snack.

[Jason Tate]

To Zion:

Yes, I do believe that your brother chose to be gay.
When did you choose to be straight?

[Jason Tate]

lol why? isn't that like fighting ignorance with more ignorance? that is, if you believe that anyone that uses God in their argument is ignorant.
Anyone that uses God in their argument is ignorant. I don't make arguments and back them up with tales of fairies and witches - it's not a valid argument. Period.

[BigWille24302]

Am I the only one that once I read "God" in any "counter argument" immediately skip the post? Just me?

Jason, honest truth right here, in my original post I stated that I believed that gay marriage should be legal in a political sense, but I morally think that homosexuality is wrong.

The only reason God came up after that was my defending my reasons for why I believe that because I was questioned. I think that gay marriage should be legal, so it's not a counter argument.

[briXinRhands]

I'm homeschooled now so I dont really have any type of sleep schedule, but today I woke up early (at noon) and I was really tired so I took my nap and now its almost midnight so I'm having my snack.


alrighty then, enjoy

[zion the lion]

To Zion:

Yes, I do believe that your brother chose to be gay.

I cant believe someone on the internet has found a way to piss me off as much as you have with that one post.

When did you choose to be straight?

I was going to say that

[briXinRhands]

To Zion:

Yes, I do believe that your brother chose to be gay.


I can't see myself ever understanding a 'belief' like this.

[Jason Tate]

Jason, honest truth right here, in my original post I stated that I believed that gay marriage should be legal in a political sense, but I morally think that homosexuality is wrong.

The only reason God came up after that was my defending my reasons for why I believe that because I was questioned. I think that gay marriage should be legal, so it's not a counter argument.
And honest truth -- I read "blah blah blah - God" and stopped reading.

[Dicebox]

To Dicebox: (because I don't feel like quoting)

That was an absolutely fantastic post. I will definitely think about what you've said about normal marriages being founded on sin also. That is an excellent point that I have overlooked. Obviously, that doesn't change the fact that I think homosexuality is a sin, but it does make me question my belief on it being legal or not. (though, in my unbiased political/legal opinion I already think it should be legal.)

But I can give you an answer now on the latter question you asked. Im sorry if it seemed that way through my earlier post but I in no way shape or form believe that deeds get you into heaven. I know that we can only go to heaven through God's grace. I feel dumb now if my earlier post made it seem like I thought any different.

I have wrestled with my belief on homosexuals going to heaven though...If someone is homosexual and a christian, then they must believe that homosexuality is not a sin. Therefore, when they ask for forgiveness, they are not asking for forgiveness for their homosexuality. Now, in my opinion, homosexuality is a sin. So if a homosexual asks for forgiveness but continues to be homosexual and then dies, do they go to heaven? This I don't know. If you asked me, they would continue to be sinning without forgiveness for it. I don't know...
Thanks man, cool glad to clear that up. Yeah i also wrestle with that stuff too. I think though, to be able to answer that though, we need to find out how someone becomes "homosexual." I know that we are all born neutral, so somewhere down the line we form into the way we are now, whether homosexuality is formed genetically (which some studies can point to) or developmentally (which other studies show) I dont know that answer. However I know quite a bit of gay people and the most powerful thing my friend told me once was, "man, do you how much i am mocked for being gay, people say its a choice, but I would never choose this for myself." It really gets me thinking.

I do know people that have been gay, and are now straight, so i know it's not entirely concrete.

[Jason Tate]

Thanks man, cool glad to clear that up. Yeah i also wrestle with that stuff too. I think though, to be able to answer that though, we need to find out how someone becomes "homosexual." I know that we are all born neutral, so somewhere down the line we form into the way we are now, whether homosexuality is formed genetically (which some studies can point to) or developmentally (which other studies show) I dont know that answer. However I know quite a bit of gay people and the most powerful thing my friend told me once was, "man, do you how much i am mocked for being gay, people say its a choice, but I would never choose this for myself." It really gets me thinking.

I do know people that have been gay, and are now straight, so i know it's not entirely concrete.
The problem with this statement ... uh, genetics are from birth.

[Dicebox]

Anyone that uses God in their argument is ignorant. I don't make arguments and back them up with tales of fairies and witches - it's not a valid argument. Period.
Whatever happened to tolerance :) lol jk

Okay, so despite that some people might have valid claims to what they're saying, you believe their entire post is irrelevant and unacceptable? It sounds like you might be ignorant concerning this matter.

[briXinRhands]

I do know people that have been gay, and are now straight, so i know it's not entirely concrete.

since I don't personally know these people I can't say for sure, but to me this is not an issue of choice, so these people either were never gay to begin with or still aren't, and are saying (even forcing themselves to believe) they are straight to be accepted in an anti-gay atmosphere around them.

[BigWille24302]

So basically after all of this it comes down to one thing:

Everyone (straight, gay, black, white, ect..) is allowed to have their own opinion on what is right and wrong, which I agree is 100% correct.

But, if I have an opinion and belief that homosexuality is wrong, I get cut down and attacked by probably at least 10 people, including the "leader" of this site, even though I clearly stated that I loved gay people as much as anyone else and that I think that they should be allowed to get married. Is cutting me down for my religious beliefs any better than cutting someone down for their sexual preference? (which I did not do, by the way)

[Dicebox]

The problem with this statement ... uh, genetics are from birth.
truth, but we are not born with everything fully developed yet. Like a fully functioning brain, or fully developed mobility, though over time, when our body starts to create these proteins, they become the way they were genetically designed to do.

[Jason Tate]

Whatever happened to tolerance :) lol jk

Okay, so despite that some people might have valid claims to what they're saying, you believe their entire post is irrelevant and unacceptable? It sounds like you might be ignorant concerning this matter.
Tolerance has nothing to do with an invalid argument.

Valid claims and "faith" and "God" are completely counter to each other. They don't go hand in hand. It's against the very nature of "faith". I guarantee you I know more about religion than any so called religious person in this thread. The fact remains: God has no relevancy to any rational argument. Period. Unless I can end any argument with "because the black power ranger zoid told me so."

[caityconundrum]

since I don't personally know these people I can't say for sure, but to me this is not an issue of choice, so these people either were never gay to begin with or still aren't, and are saying (even forcing themselves to believe) they are straight to be accepted in an anti-gay atmosphere around them.
This. Experimenting to figure out what they were really into doesn't mean they chose to be gay one day and changed their minds the next.

[Jason Tate]

truth, but we are not born with everything fully developed yet. Like a fully functioning brain, or fully developed mobility, though over time, when our body starts to create these proteins, they become the way they were genetically designed to do.
Have you ever taken a biology class - or basic biochemistry? Uh ... you have no idea what you are talking about. At all. Don't embarrass yourself.

[Dicebox]

since I don't personally know these people I can't say for sure, but to me this is not an issue of choice, so these people either were never gay to begin with or still aren't, and are saying (even forcing themselves to believe) they are straight to be accepted in an anti-gay atmosphere around them.
you have a valid argument, I too, do not know if he person was "truly gay" but i know the person is now straight, because they have 5 children, lol.

[Jason Tate]

So basically after all of this it comes down to one thing:

Everyone (straight, gay, black, white, ect..) is allowed to have their own opinion on what is right and wrong, which I agree is 100% correct.

But, if I have an opinion and belief that homosexuality is wrong, I get cut down and attacked by probably at least 10 people, including the "leader" of this site, even though I clearly stated that I loved gay people as much as anyone else and that I think that they should be allowed to get married. Is cutting me down for my religious beliefs any better than cutting someone down for their sexual preference? (which I did not do, by the way)
Having an opinion doesn't make you immune from being a moron. The KKK can "have" an opinion on topics ... doesn't mean they're not idiots with their opinion founded in fallacy.

[zion the lion]

Thanks man, cool glad to clear that up. Yeah i also wrestle with that stuff too. I think though, to be able to answer that though, we need to find out how someone becomes "homosexual." I know that we are all born neutral, so somewhere down the line we form into the way we are now, whether homosexuality is formed genetically (which some studies can point to) or developmentally (which other studies show) I dont know that answer. However I know quite a bit of gay people and the most powerful thing my friend told me once was, "man, do you how much i am mocked for being gay, people say its a choice, but I would never choose this for myself." It really gets me thinking.

I do know people that have been gay, and are now straight, so i know it's not entirely concrete.

Most of those people were never really gay to begin with or they're still secretly gay but hide it. My brother and my best friend both got sent to some camp where people "learn" to be straight "again", and my brother came home and went right back into the closet and pretended to be straight, my best friend is now dating guys so that she wont be kicked out and she's still a lesbian. I really dont know how people can think that its something that can be reversible or something thats a choice.

[Jason Tate]

you have a valid argument, I too, do not know if he person was "truly gay" but i know the person is now straight, because they have 5 children, lol.
I had no idea gay people couldn't reproduce. :hitself:

Are you kidding me?

[caityconundrum]

Hahahah. Ohh my. What an entertaining read this thread has been.

[Dicebox]

Have you ever taken a biology class - or basic biochemistry? Uh ... you have no idea what you are talking about. At all.
I'm in biology right now, and i do know that we don't utilize all of our DNA at birth. Help me to see where I'm wrong than just telling me I don't know what I'm talking about.

[BigWille24302]

Having an opinion doesn't make you immune from being a moron. The KKK can "have" an opinion on topics ... doesn't mean they're not idiots with their opinion founded in fallacy.

Im not gonna even respond to that. Here's the question: If im such an awful person for not sharing the same belief as someone else, what does that make you for condemning my belief?

Now im sure you will answer that with some witty little line to embarass me and prove your debating superiority, but I hope that maybe it will stick in the back of your mind that you are no better than the person you are condemning.

[caityconundrum]

Have you guys really never seen Tate get into an argument before?

[Jason Tate]

I'm in biology right now, and i do know that we don't utilize all of our DNA at birth. Help me to see where I'm wrong than just telling me I don't know what I'm talking about.
There are not enough hours in the day to teach you what you don't know - go read any other homosexual discussion on this forum and you'll get every single argument about why sexual preference is NOT A CHOICE - with countless sources to back it up. We are not born "neutral" and also genetically programmed to a sexuality. Those are two dueling realities.

[briXinRhands]

you have a valid argument, I too, do not know if he person was "truly gay" but i know the person is now straight, because they have 5 children, lol.

lol well that's pretty clear to me at least that they were never gay, just experimenting, rebelling, whatever. unless they are so ashamed they are still hiding it with 5 children, which can and does happen for a variety of reasons.

[Dicebox]

I had no idea gay people couldn't reproduce. :hitself:

Are you kidding me?
WOW you are either having a bad day, or you're not getting what I'm saying. I don't know if the person was ever truly gay or if it was misinterpreted. I do know that the person is now straight, one of the ways i can conclude this is because this man has been married for over 25 years, has 5 children, and loves his wife. Unless he is faking it? I dont know i guess there could be a chance. Most likely, this is not the case.

And of course I believe that gay people can reproduce. lol

[Jason Tate]

Im not gonna even respond to that.
Yet you just did.

Here's the question: If im such an awful person for not sharing the same belief as someone else, what does that make you for not condemning my belief?
For not condemning (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=WM1&q=define%3A+condemn&btnG=Search) your belief? I do condemn your belief. What's that make me? Rational.

Now im sure you will answer that with some witty little line to embarass me and prove your debating superiority, but I hope that maybe it will stick in the back of your mind that you are no better than the person you are condemning.
Your argument implies that my judgment of the neo-nazi makes me no different because I judge his foolish ways. I judge your foolish ways in the same manner ... makes me no "different" - so be it. I have the benefit of being right. This idea that it's hypocritical to be intolerant of intolerance is fucking stupid.

[zion the lion]

Have you guys really never seen Tate get into an argument before?

no but I heard he called someone a cum dumpster before...its quite intriguing, I'm half expecting this guy to get banned sooner or later (dont ban me for saying that).

[Jason Tate]

WOW you are either having a bad day, or you're not getting what I'm saying. I don't know if the person was ever truly gay or if it was misinterpreted. I do know that the person is now straight, one of the ways i can conclude this is because this man has been married for over 25 years, has 5 children, and loves his wife. Unless he is faking it? I dont know i guess there could be a chance. Most likely, this is not the case.

And of course I believe that gay people can reproduce. lol
I'll spell it out for you: I'm making fun of you for assuming that a married man, with children, automatically implies that he must be straight.

[caityconundrum]

no but I heard he called someone a cum dumpster before...its quite intriguing, I'm half expecting this guy to get banned sooner or later (dont ban me for saying that).
I've been called that on AP hahah. Not by him.

[Jason Tate]

Have you guys really never seen Tate get into an argument before?
Apparently not. Zealots are all the same.

[Jason Tate]

no but I heard he called someone a cum dumpster before...its quite intriguing, I'm half expecting this guy to get banned sooner or later (dont ban me for saying that).
Sounds like something I'd say in real life ... not on the internet.

[BigWille24302]

The not was a typo, I fixed it earlier. But I knew you would respond with something like that, of course you would. Congrats. You are the best debater because you ignore what anyone says and just continue with your useless banter, comparing a christian who said he loves gay people but doesnt agree with them to the KKK and a Neo-Nazi. Im going to sleep now, and ill be praying for you.

[briXinRhands]

I do know that the person is now straight, one of the ways i can conclude this is because this man has been married for over 25 years, has 5 children, and loves his wife. Unless he is faking it? I dont know i guess there could be a chance. Most likely, this is not the case.

25 years is quite a long time, but this happens more than you'd think.

[Analog Rebellion]

Pretends to be open to diversity, but clearly chooses to simply lable the Bible as "dumb shit"! = Tries too hard to be an alternative thinker and fails at it.
Pretends? I'm completely open to diversity. I think the Bible is full of dumb shit, you can quote me on that, however I would savagely protect a Christian's right to worship, if it came under fire.

Do you think Scientologists believe dumb shit? I do. Do you believe they have a right to believe that dumb shit? I do. I also believe in a person's right to smoke weed legally. Is that because I smoke weed? No.

There is dumb shit in the Bible. Even some Christians would support that fact. Modern Christianity picks and chooses what it finds acceptable.

brilliant, people should read The Jefferson Bible (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible), or The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible)
Agreed 100%. The good things in the Bible minus the "dumb shit" as I stated above. There's plenty of good to learn from the Bible. Thinking that one group of people does not have the same rights as you is NOT a good thing to learn from the Bible. Thinking that the Earth is 6,000 years old is also a completely useless thing to learn from the Bible.

Am I the only one that once I read "God" in any "counter argument" immediately skip the post? Just me?
I'm with you. :highfive:

[Dicebox]

There are not enough hours in the day to teach you what you don't know - go read any other homosexual discussion on this forum and you'll get every single argument about why sexual preference is NOT A CHOICE - with countless sources to back it up. We are not born "neutral" and also genetically programmed to a sexuality. Those are two dueling realities.
sorry, but when did i say it was a choice? If you read my entire post you would see that i never said this.

Also if you read my other posts, I believe gay marriage should be legal.

[tambam]

The not was a typo, I fixed it earlier. But I knew you would respond with something like that, of course you would. Congrats. You are the best debater because you ignore what anyone says and just continue with your useless banter, comparing a christian who said he loves gay people but doesnt agree with them to the KKK and Neo-Nazi. Im going to sleep now, and ill be praying for you.

Hahahaha.

[caityconundrum]

Because this is my only active subscribed thread:

Light or dark laces?

http://i44.tinypic.com/a3179z.jpg

[Jason Tate]

The not was a typo, I fixed it earlier. But I knew you would respond with something like that, of course you would. Congrats. You are the best debater because you ignore what anyone says and just continue with your useless banter, comparing a christian who said he loves gay people but doesnt agree with them to the KKK and Neo-Nazi. Im going to sleep now, and ill be praying for you.
Not what I compared at all -- but, uh, good one.

Please don't. At least pray for someone that needs it. Why do Christians seem so content to waste their prayers? At the very least spend the extra hour and pray for a third world country ... not me.

[Jason Tate]

Because this is my only active subscribed thread:

Light or dark laces?

http://i44.tinypic.com/a3179z.jpg
Light.

[Jason Tate]

sorry, but when did i say it was a choice? If you read my entire post you would see that i never said this.

Also if you read my other posts, I believe gay marriage should be legal.
I know that we are all born neutral, so somewhere down the line we form into the way we are now, whether homosexuality is formed genetically (which some studies can point to) or developmentally (which other studies show) I dont know that answer.

Good. It should be. Doesn't mean the rest of your reasoning isn't batty ... which was my only point from the start. I zone out anyone that uses "God" in an argument. You thought this made me ignorant ... and then decided to butcher biochemistry in the next post. Now we're here.

[zion the lion]

The not was a typo, I fixed it earlier. But I knew you would respond with something like that, of course you would. Congrats. You are the best debater because you ignore what anyone says and just continue with your useless banter, comparing a christian who said he loves gay people but doesnt agree with them to the KKK and Neo-Nazi. Im going to sleep now, and ill be praying for you.

I bet god is laughing right now. You know I've had racists use the bible to tell me that I'm not allowed to date their friend but then say "I love black people though so its ok right?" I dont believe in the bible and I'm pretty sure my god is a reasonable man, who wouldnt want you trying to use him for your intolerance.

[caityconundrum]

Light.
Oh good. That's what I was leaning towards. I'm just incredibly indecisive about really unimportant things sometimes. Thanks.

[briXinRhands]

Because this is my only active subscribed thread:

Light or dark laces?

http://i44.tinypic.com/a3179z.jpg

nice shoes. go with the dark.

[Jason Tate]

Oh good. That's what I was leaning towards. I'm just incredibly indecisive about really unimportant things sometimes. Thanks.
I like the contrast better ... the dark seems to blend in too much.

[Jason Tate]

I bet god is laughing right now. You know I've had racists use the bible to tell me that I'm not allowed to date their friend but then say "I love black people though so its ok right?" I dont believe in the bible and I'm pretty sure my god is a reasonable man, who wouldnt want you trying to use him for your intolerance.
What's this "I love you but don't agree with who you are" thing anyway? That's just a massive cop out. You don't love someone if you don't agree with who they are as a person.

[briXinRhands]

Because this is my only active subscribed thread:

to be honest though both look pretty tight. don't think you can go wrong

[briXinRhands]

What's this "I love you but don't agree with who you are" thing anyway? That's just a massive cop out. You don't love someone if you don't agree with who they are as a person.

YES. thank you. can someone please get this across to bigwillestyle?

[caityconundrum]

nice shoes. go with the dark.
Oh no. :-( Hahah. I already re-laced the other one but at least they both match. I just needed some comfortable/durable shoes cause my new class schedule has me walking A LOT more than I was before and my rainbows aren't gonna cut it.

I like the contrast better ... the dark seems to blend in too much.
Agreed. Since the part where the laces go is already the darker brown, the lighter laces seem to work well. Not that it's a big deal in ANY way, but whatever. Problem solved, yay!

[Analog Rebellion]

Because this is my only active subscribed thread:

Light or dark laces?

http://i44.tinypic.com/a3179z.jpg
I like Dark. Tate doesn't know shit about shoes. Just sayin'

Not what I compared at all -- but, uh, good one.

Please don't. At least pray for someone that needs it. Why do Christians seem so content to waste their prayers? At the very least spend the extra hour and pray for a third world country ... not me.
Haha

I know that we are all born neutral, so somewhere down the line we form into the way we are now, whether homosexuality is formed genetically (which some studies can point to) or developmentally (which other studies show) I dont know that answer.

Good. It should be. Doesn't mean the rest of your reasoning isn't batty ... which was my only point from the start. I zone out anyone that uses "God" in an argument. You thought this made me ignorant ... and then decided to butcher biochemistry in the next post. Now we're here.
I think it's likely that we're genetically predisposed to one or the other, but developmental factors can influence the final outcome.

I also believe that a lot of people aren't 100% one or the other, but still not necessarily bi. I just don't think it's as black and white as everyone makes it.

[Khaos]

What's this "I love you but don't agree with who you are" thing anyway? That's just a massive cop out. You don't love someone if you don't agree with who they are as a person.

Its the whole hate the sin not the sinner sort of thing, not that I condone it.