PDA

View Full Version : The moderate democrat opinion.


Justin_stacy
11/29/05, 09:44 PM
Our Troops Must Stay
America can't abandon 27 million Iraqis to 10,000 terrorists.
BY JOE LIEBERMAN
Tuesday, November 29, 2005 12:01 a.m. EST
I have just returned from my fourth trip to Iraq in the past 17 months and can report real progress there. More work needs to be done, of course, but the Iraqi people are in reach of a watershed transformation from the primitive, killing tyranny of Saddam to modern, self-governing, self-securing nationhood--unless the great American military that has given them and us this unexpected opportunity is prematurely withdrawn.

Progress is visible and practical. In the Kurdish North, there is continuing security and growing prosperity. The primarily Shiite South remains largely free of terrorism, receives much more electric power and other public services than it did under Saddam, and is experiencing greater economic activity. The Sunni triangle, geographically defined by Baghdad to the east, Tikrit to the north and Ramadi to the west, is where most of the terrorist enemy attacks occur. And yet here, too, there is progress.

There are many more cars on the streets, satellite television dishes on the roofs, and literally millions more cell phones in Iraqi hands than before. All of that says the Iraqi economy is growing. And Sunni candidates are actively campaigning for seats in the National Assembly. People are working their way toward a functioning society and economy in the midst of a very brutal, inhumane, sustained terrorist war against the civilian population and the Iraqi and American military there to protect it.

It is a war between 27 million and 10,000; 27 million Iraqis who want to live lives of freedom, opportunity and prosperity and roughly 10,000 terrorists who are either Saddam revanchists, Iraqi Islamic extremists or al Qaeda foreign fighters who know their wretched causes will be set back if Iraq becomes free and modern. The terrorists are intent on stopping this by instigating a civil war to produce the chaos that will allow Iraq to replace Afghanistan as the base for their fanatical war-making. We are fighting on the side of the 27 million because the outcome of this war is critically important to the security and freedom of America. If the terrorists win, they will be emboldened to strike us directly again and to further undermine the growing stability and progress in the Middle East, which has long been a major American national and economic security priority.

Before going to Iraq last week, I visited Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Israel has been the only genuine democracy in the region, but it is now getting some welcome company from the Iraqis and Palestinians who are in the midst of robust national legislative election campaigns, the Lebanese who have risen up in proud self-determination after the Hariri assassination to eject their Syrian occupiers (the Syrian- and Iranian-backed Hezbollah militias should be next), and the Kuwaitis, Egyptians and Saudis who have taken steps to open up their governments more broadly to their people. In my meeting with the thoughtful prime minister of Iraq, Ibrahim al-Jaafari, he declared with justifiable pride that his country now has the most open, democratic political system in the Arab world. He is right.

In the face of terrorist threats and escalating violence, eight million Iraqis voted for their interim national government in January, almost 10 million participated in the referendum on their new constitution in October, and even more than that are expected to vote in the elections for a full-term government on Dec. 15. Every time the 27 million Iraqis have been given the chance since Saddam was overthrown, they have voted for self-government and hope over the violence and hatred the 10,000 terrorists offer them. Most encouraging has been the behavior of the Sunni community, which, when disappointed by the proposed constitution, registered to vote and went to the polls instead of taking up arms and going to the streets. Last week, I was thrilled to see a vigorous political campaign, and a large number of independent television stations and newspapers covering it.

None of these remarkable changes would have happened without the coalition forces led by the U.S. And, I am convinced, almost all of the progress in Iraq and throughout the Middle East will be lost if those forces are withdrawn faster than the Iraqi military is capable of securing the country.

The leaders of Iraq's duly elected government understand this, and they asked me for reassurance about America's commitment. The question is whether the American people and enough of their representatives in Congress from both parties understand this. I am disappointed by Democrats who are more focused on how President Bush took America into the war in Iraq almost three years ago, and by Republicans who are more worried about whether the war will bring them down in next November's elections, than they are concerned about how we continue the progress in Iraq in the months and years ahead.

Here is an ironic finding I brought back from Iraq. While U.S. public opinion polls show serious declines in support for the war and increasing pessimism about how it will end, polls conducted by Iraqis for Iraqi universities show increasing optimism. Two-thirds say they are better off than they were under Saddam, and a resounding 82% are confident their lives in Iraq will be better a year from now than they are today. What a colossal mistake it would be for America's bipartisan political leadership to choose this moment in history to lose its will and, in the famous phrase, to seize defeat from the jaws of the coming victory.

The leaders of America's military and diplomatic forces in Iraq, Gen. George Casey and Ambassador Zal Khalilzad, have a clear and compelling vision of our mission there. It is to create the environment in which Iraqi democracy, security and prosperity can take hold and the Iraqis themselves can defend their political progress against those 10,000 terrorists who would take it from them.

Does America have a good plan for doing this, a strategy for victory in Iraq? Yes we do. And it is important to make it clear to the American people that the plan has not remained stubbornly still but has changed over the years. Mistakes, some of them big, were made after Saddam was removed, and no one who supports the war should hesitate to admit that; but we have learned from those mistakes and, in characteristic American fashion, from what has worked and not worked on the ground. The administration's recent use of the banner "clear, hold and build" accurately describes the strategy as I saw it being implemented last week.

We are now embedding a core of coalition forces in every Iraqi fighting unit, which makes each unit more effective and acts as a multiplier of our forces. Progress in "clearing" and "holding" is being made. The Sixth Infantry Division of the Iraqi Security Forces now controls and polices more than one-third of Baghdad on its own. Coalition and Iraqi forces have together cleared the previously terrorist-controlled cities of Fallujah, Mosul and Tal Afar, and most of the border with Syria. Those areas are now being "held" secure by the Iraqi military themselves. Iraqi and coalition forces are jointly carrying out a mission to clear Ramadi, now the most dangerous city in Al-Anbar province at the west end of the Sunni Triangle.
Nationwide, American military leaders estimate that about one-third of the approximately 100,000 members of the Iraqi military are able to "lead the fight" themselves with logistical support from the U.S., and that that number should double by next year. If that happens, American military forces could begin a drawdown in numbers proportional to the increasing self-sufficiency of the Iraqi forces in 2006. If all goes well, I believe we can have a much smaller American military presence there by the end of 2006 or in 2007, but it is also likely that our presence will need to be significant in Iraq or nearby for years to come.

The economic reconstruction of Iraq has gone slower than it should have, and too much money has been wasted or stolen. Ambassador Khalilzad is now implementing reform that has worked in Afghanistan--Provincial Reconstruction Teams, composed of American economic and political experts, working in partnership in each of Iraq's 18 provinces with its elected leadership, civil service and the private sector. That is the "build" part of the "clear, hold and build" strategy, and so is the work American and international teams are doing to professionalize national and provincial governmental agencies in Iraq.

These are new ideas that are working and changing the reality on the ground, which is undoubtedly why the Iraqi people are optimistic about their future--and why the American people should be, too.

I cannot say enough about the U.S. Army and Marines who are carrying most of the fight for us in Iraq. They are courageous, smart, effective, innovative, very honorable and very proud. After a Thanksgiving meal with a great group of Marines at Camp Fallujah in western Iraq, I asked their commander whether the morale of his troops had been hurt by the growing public dissent in America over the war in Iraq. His answer was insightful, instructive and inspirational: "I would guess that if the opposition and division at home go on a lot longer and get a lot deeper it might have some effect, but, Senator, my Marines are motivated by their devotion to each other and the cause, not by political debates."
Thank you, General. That is a powerful, needed message for the rest of America and its political leadership at this critical moment in our nation's history. Semper Fi.

Mr. Lieberman is a Democratic senator from Connecticut.

open mind
11/29/05, 10:24 PM
the dude's crazy about censorship so he can suck a fatty.

commatosa
11/29/05, 11:56 PM
since when do Joe Lieberman's opinions reflect how the democratic party feels? He's a douche. He's like a republican except more of a pussy.

Cal Smith
11/30/05, 01:23 AM
Something I'm proud of (at least for the majority of the conservatives) is that you don't have an all out assault and naming calling of a conservative when they either support a democratic stance, or simply don't agree with a conservative stance on a particular issue.

On the other hand, democrats won't hesitate to rip on Lieberman as they did Zell Miller.

I am all talk
11/30/05, 02:13 AM
Something I'm proud of (at least for the majority of the conservatives) is that you don't have an all out assault and naming calling of a conservative when they either support a democratic stance, or simply don't agree with a conservative stance on a particular issue.

On the other hand, democrats won't hesitate to rip on Lieberman as they did Zell Miller.
were you awake for the 2000 Republican primaries?

yeat182
11/30/05, 07:59 AM
funny how quickly they jump on someone that doesn't agree with them.

Cal Smith
11/30/05, 08:25 AM
were you awake for the 2000 Republican primaries?

primaries are a different story because you're trying to place yourself ahead of the other candidate. Just look at how all the other candidates backed Bush after he won.

Trainsaw
11/30/05, 10:30 AM
funny how quickly they jump on someone that doesn't agree with them.
Oh yes the republican's don't do that at all do they

Cal Smith
11/30/05, 10:32 AM
Oh yes the republican's don't do that at all do they

For the most part NO. I'd like to see examples of some of the moderate republicans who have been just completely trashed by the right or far right?

yeat182
11/30/05, 10:37 AM
Oh yes the republican's don't do that at all do they

i wasn't refering to democrats, i was refering to the people on this board.

Justin_stacy
11/30/05, 10:42 AM
since when do Joe Lieberman's opinions reflect how the democratic party feels? He's a douche. He's like a republican except more of a pussy.

He doesn't reflect the whole party, that's the point; this is the opinion of a moderate democrat. All the public ever sees and hears is the far left fanatical wing of the party (the Kerry's, the Kennedy's, the Durbin's, the Pelosi's, etc), which although maybe the majority of the party right now, it is not the total party. What Lieberman showed by this op-ed piece is that there still is hope left for moderate Democrats and that the fanatical wing of the party does not control them all........

Justin_stacy
11/30/05, 10:49 AM
For the most part NO. I'd like to see examples of some of the moderate republicans who have been just completely trashed by the right or far right?

ya if their all getting trashed so bad i'd love to know why they keep taking the lead in our primaries?

siberianxkiss
11/30/05, 11:17 AM
I agree with him and he Dems were idiots for not running Liebermann. Its a shame that the extremes of both parties are taking over.

Cal Smith
11/30/05, 11:44 AM
ya if their all getting trashed so bad i'd love to know why they keep taking the lead in our primaries?

Exactly, I've never been a huge Mccain fan but he's currently one of the top candidate for the Rep. nomination in 08 along with Rudy G.

Justin_stacy
11/30/05, 12:02 PM
Exactly, I've never been a huge Mccain fan but he's currently one of the top candidate for the Rep. nomination in 08 along with Rudy G.
Let’s not forget 00' either. The first candidates to drop out were Forbes, Bauers, and Keyes the most "extreme" of the nominees, while Hatch, McCain and Bush, all moderates, were the last ones standing.

To the opposite in 04' DNC primaries the more moderate you were the quicker you fell.......which more then anything else I think proves the true nature of the party.

I am all talk
11/30/05, 12:17 PM
primaries are a different story because you're trying to place yourself ahead of the other candidate. Just look at how all the other candidates backed Bush after he won.
the smear job done by the bush campaign on mccain blows everything else out of the water.

selftitled85
11/30/05, 01:36 PM
He doesn't reflect the whole party, that's the point; this is the opinion of a moderate democrat. All the public ever sees and hears is the far left fanatical wing of the party (the Kerry's, the Kennedy's, the Durbin's, the Pelosi's, etc), which although maybe the majority of the party right now, it is not the total party. What Lieberman showed by this op-ed piece is that there still is hope left for moderate Democrats and that the fanatical wing of the party does not control them all........


haha you called kerry a far left...

CorporateFish
11/30/05, 03:43 PM
I've never supported the war, but I certainly wouldn't agree with pulling the troops out.

ReFuSeD!
11/30/05, 04:53 PM
Something I'm proud of (at least for the majority of the conservatives) is that you don't have an all out assault and naming calling of a conservative when they either support a democratic stance, or simply don't agree with a conservative stance on a particular issue.
On the other hand, democrats won't hesitate to rip on Lieberman as they did Zell Miller.

Partisan politcs generally leads to shit like this.

Justin_stacy
11/30/05, 10:29 PM
haha you called kerry a far left...

Based on voting records he was the most far left, liberal, senator in the US Congress (more so then anyone else i named)........now what does that make him besides stupid?

Really, studying a topic before commenting always helps....

selftitled85
11/30/05, 11:54 PM
Based on voting records he was the most far left, liberal, senator in the US Congress (more so then anyone else i named)........now what does that make him besides stupid?
Really, studying a topic before commenting always helps....


kerry voted for the war initially. right there that makes him less left then kennedy and a couple others.

Cal Smith
12/01/05, 12:26 AM
kerry voted for the war initially. right there that makes him less left then kennedy and a couple others.

No, if you listen to that used car salesman he says he voted to give Bush the "authority" to go to war. Either case even if he did support the war or didnt that wouldn't make him any less or more liberal. If you have a conservative that didnt support the war would you think that made him more liberal?

Now that my vicodin have kicked in fully.........I'm going to bed, going to bed happy at that.

YouMadeTheScene
12/01/05, 12:48 AM
You know what may suck? If Saddam gets off the trial because of lack of substantial evidence or a mistrial or something. Talk about blowing up in the U.S.'s face.


I know people are saying 'But Iraq Will Be In Shambles!!' We did it in Vietnam and we did it in Korea, and I really don't understand why not now. I think it came to the point where the governments at the time threw their hands up and said 'We did what we could its up to you people know, Peace Out.' And then we move on to bomb Iran.

Face it things aren't going to change over there for a long long time. People are saying look at the progress, and their hasn't been that much project. They are saying how they've set up the government and programs, but that doesn't mean you are bringing peace to a land, which needs to be done. Even if it is a bad idea to leave we are going to because right now the government is becoming to hard pressed. Congress is having a shit fit over the war, and the people clearly are going completely against it. Time to bring em home Georgy Boy

open mind
12/01/05, 12:54 AM
funny how quickly they jump on someone that doesn't agree with them.
i haven't liked this guy for years, he's way to big on censorship for my tastes, and he jumps into issues he knows nothing about to score points.

boekebong
12/01/05, 12:59 AM
the smear job done by the bush campaign on mccain blows everything else out of the water.

Bingo. I have hated the Bush administration since the South Carolina primary in 2000.

YouMadeTheScene
12/01/05, 01:02 AM
Something I'm proud of (at least for the majority of the conservatives) is that you don't have an all out assault and naming calling of a conservative when they either support a democratic stance, or simply don't agree with a conservative stance on a particular issue.

On the other hand, democrats won't hesitate to rip on Lieberman as they did Zell Miller.


Are you saying the Democrats are wrong for ripping on Zell Miller? THE GUY CHALLENGED A MAN TO A DUEL!!!!! He isn't a Democrat. He was a Democrat in 1865, but now he is a Republican basically.

yeat182
12/01/05, 07:09 AM
i haven't liked this guy for years, he's way to big on censorship for my tastes, and he jumps into issues he knows nothing about to score points.

sounds like every politician.

getupkid53
12/01/05, 07:49 AM
That article was a decent read. I really wish president Bush would stand up and say some of these things but the man refuses to admit that his administration has ever made a mistake. I think that contributes alot towards people hating him. I don't know why, if those Iraqi polls are true, we aren't hearing about those numbers in the states. I think it would do Bush some good to make a statement like this and try to clear things up from what seems to be the constant haze over the white house.

Justin_stacy
12/01/05, 09:16 AM
kerry voted for the war initially. right there that makes him less left then kennedy and a couple others.

Nope, statistically it doesn't........hey I, like most traditional conservatives, didn’t support the war, does that mean I’m more liberal then Kerry?

National Journal found Kerry (96.5) to be the liberalist member of the senate, while Kennedy was the 11th…..and that was based on their total voting records of the 03’ session.

Justin_stacy
12/01/05, 09:24 AM
Are you saying the Democrats are wrong for ripping on Zell Miller? THE GUY CHALLENGED A MAN TO A DUEL!!!!! He isn't a Democrat. He was a Democrat in 1865, but now he is a Republican basically.

No he's a democrat of the 1960's; as the party has move further and further to the left in recent years there have been mean Zell's that have been left behind. Hell JFK, the DNC's most beloved fallen soldier, wouldn't be a Democrat by today's standards.......

YouMadeTheScene
12/01/05, 09:44 AM
No he's a democrat of the 1960's; as the party has move further and further to the left in recent years there have been mean Zell's that have been left behind. Hell JFK, the DNC's most beloved fallen soldier, wouldn't be a Democrat by today's standards.......

yeah i was just kidding i'm aware.

Cal Smith
12/01/05, 12:30 PM
No he's a democrat of the 1960's; as the party has move further and further to the left in recent years there have been mean Zell's that have been left behind. Hell JFK, the DNC's most beloved fallen soldier, wouldn't be a Democrat by today's standards.......

correct, the democratic party left miller not the other way around

open mind
12/02/05, 04:15 AM
sounds like every politician.
yeah auctually i don't like most politicians.
but take for instance this guys stance on videogames, back when mortal kombat came out he was the most vocal politician out there about all the poor children being turned into killers and what not, just the other day him and hilary clinton just put forth a bill that in a roundabout way puts the federal government in control of the ratings system for games.
i prefer politicians who try to keep the government out of my daily life as much as possible, but at the same time have a sense of social justice, this guys just a democran, except he pushes the dumbest parts of the democratic agenda instead of the most important ones.

I am all talk
12/02/05, 05:31 PM
correct, the democratic party left miller not the other way around
just like the democratic party left Strom Thurmond behind?