[Love As Arson]

Gotta seek out the leftists in your town.

[Mitch]

Originally Posted by Love As Arson

Gotta seek out the leftists in your town.

They're a rare breed in York, PA.

[IntoTheSun]

I don't know if I can add much to the discussion but generally with the debate around power and neo-Marxist discourse, two people I've read whose ideas were the most thorough and accurate to me are Gramsci and Stuart Hall (Hall being majorly influenced by Gramsci, I think.) Particularly in their articulations of the emergence of cultural hegemony rather than rigidly defined oppression through any specific group of people. I think this speaks well to a consideration of not only structural powers but ideologies as well. I actually was wondering earlier today if this suggests that the system within a post-modernist post-signifer/signified setting would then continue to self-perpetuate and morph without the classical-Marxist idea of the "material" presence. This also speaks to the fact that the very notion of class has become confused and conflicted within society, as conceptions of class seem to largely extend beyond the basic economic and capitalist means of production. And largely I find the biggest problem is that not only does capitalism fundamentally function upon the imbalance of power, but there is also a sense of inescapablity from it, that nothing takes form as a truly alternative social imaginary.

Whiteness is a privilege not in that it actively asserts superiority, but because of the very normality of its presence. It holds power in that it is default, the default gaze upon which all "alternatives" must position themselves as relative to, and that its blankness is a silent power of accessibility. So, getting to the woman in the video, her insistence of being aware of that power extends far beyond an oppressor--oppressed model, fundamentally dictated through class or not. I think I agree with her insistence upon critical awareness and consciousness, but it's very interesting how her outcry of injustice extended only to addressing her "fellow white people." Without any consideration upon the possibilities of internalized misogyny, internalized racism, internalized victimization of any oppressed people. And that spoke to a sort of racism (or perhaps privilege) itself in assuming the solution is white people must help by not oppressing people anymore, and that somehow the black people she was speaking of were some untouchable victims without their own voice.

I think the most frustrating difficulty in arguing materialism (ie, the base in base-superstructure) from a traditional Marxist perspective is that the very material is conceptualized, which was my biggest struggle in trying to understand the idealism vs materialism divide (at the time I really wanted to see myself as a materialist.) I have yet to encounter texts that really bridge the gap between this era of deconstructivism/free-floating simulacra and how this can correspondingly work with Marxist materialism. Or is the new Marxist critique that postmodernity is just the next elusive phase of capitalist production?

[gfxtwin]

Honestly , I was going to respond to the topic but then I read IntoTheSuns post and now I think I'm going to fuggin hit up Amazon and buy some more books first.

EDIT: FYI, I'm not saying what you wrote is too 'acedemic' or anything, just more considered than most of everything I read on this subject and with way to many references to things I've never heard about.

[IntoTheSun]

haha, sorry, I had a class that had a two week section covering it, so I can't pretend to know a shit ton or anything either.

also hi I found something for you: http://www.extrememediastudies.org/e...base_super.pdf, this is a good place to start imo.

[gfxtwin]

Originally Posted by IntoTheSun

haha, sorry, I had a class that had a two week section covering it, so I can't pretend to know a shit ton or anything either.

also hi I found something for you: http://www.extrememediastudies.org/e...base_super.pdf, this is a good place to start imo.

Well even if you were just intellectually regurgitating what you learned in a semester or less, I'd say wherever you're going to college is definitely worth the money.

I go to a university where this guy teaches sociology.

[IntoTheSun]

Originally Posted by gfxtwin

Well even if you were just intellectually regurgitating what you learned in a semester or less, I'd say wherever you're going to college is definitely worth the money.

I go to a university where this guy teaches sociology.

well it was the first time I really delved into Marxist theory, but hey, give me some credit too!!

oh...my...jesus. I don't think people actually conflate any of those things as EXACTLY equal, ever. Nor would it make sense to, just because they all intersect. Don't know where he got that "intellectuals" did this. Also I love that he uses the term racism-sexism LOL. Amazing. There are so many ways his article makes terrible assumptions it's just too much to respond to. But I do see your point and that's unfortunate.

[gfxtwin]

Lol, didn't mean it that way. That was an if scenario. I think it's clear you have a solid grasp on the topic.

Yeah, I've never met him but it was enough to make me want to not take any more sociology courses there. I'll let him tend to his flock without my money financing any of it.

[Love As Arson]

Intothesun, read some Althusser. He talked all about how ideology has a material existence.

http://www.marxists.org/reference/ar...0/ideology.htm

[gfxtwin]

I might be showing my ignorance with this post because I haven't had a chance to read up on a lot of marxism (I'm not very political at all, but I plan to read political philosophy more than I have been) and I could be presenting something that is totally wrong or out of context. But I'm gonna ask it anyway because I think this is one of the rare forums on the internet with users who seem to know that they're talking about in political discussions.

Is it true that some marxists believe (and this may not apply to all marxists or socialists or any one political belief) that there is no such thing as racism against whites in countries like America, because in order for that to happen there must be a social economic situation where whites are not the ones holding most of the power? I might be butchering this, but is there something in the ball park of what I'm saying that some social philosophers believe?

EDIT: I googled the question and I think I found what I was looking for. It's prejudice, not racism.

That makes sense, but there are still things that I'm not clear on. I understand that calling a white person cracker or white devil is never as big a deal as using an ethnic slur against someone of color, due to the privilege for whites that occurs in most instances in this country. If a group of white people actually believe a negative stereotype about someone of color, then the whites are in a situation where they have power over that person much easier than if each person had different skin color. But are there not exceptions where you can say, yeah, that brown/black/whatever person was being kinda racist to that white guy. For example, I was raised in a poor section of town where there weren't many white people. I went to schools with very few white people and got beat up often because I was white. Some of these kids looked at the color of my skin, assumed I had it better than them and, in some cases, assumed that "I was the offspring of illuminati" and kicked my ass because of it. If I were black or brown this simply would not have happened. Even now, I have gone into some stores and someone working there assumed that I was this horrible racist oppressor because I had white skin. I literally just walked in the door and it began. Now, seeing how this is the extent of my "oppression" in regards to my skin color, I can't say that I have experienced or can experience MORE racism (if it even is racism in my case) than someone who isn't white who has to face it in some form probably every day of their life. The difference in the amount of 'racism' that whites have to face compared to non-whites (especially blacks and hispanics) isn't even close to being comparable.



But is it really true to say that there is no such thing as a white person facing social hardships because of his skin color... EVER? Because as a white guy who grew up as one of the only white guys in his school and was beat up often solely because of skin color, it kinda puzzles me when I'm told that being white NEVER puts me in a situation of being discriminated against.

[Love As Arson]

How come white guys always have stories that compare bullying to the entire subjugation of another race?

[gfxtwin]

Originally Posted by Love As Arson

How come white guys always have stories that compare bullying to the entire subjugation of another race?

"The difference in the amount of 'racism' that whites have to face compared to non-whites (especially blacks and hispanics) isn't even close to being comparable." I think I was pretty clear about how what I went through doesn't compare to something like the institutionalized racism in America.

What confuses me is how the bullying scenario I posted above can have absolutely nothing to do with racism.

I'm not even really looking for a debate on this topic because I don't feel that I'm arguing from a stance that disagrees with your reply. I'm just curious as to how being beat up because of your skin color, even if you happen to be white, isn't racism.

[Love As Arson]

Originally Posted by gfxtwin

"The difference in the amount of 'racism' that whites have to face compared to non-whites (especially blacks and hispanics) isn't even close to being comparable." I think I was pretty clear about how what I went through doesn't compare to something like the institutionalized racism in America.

What confuses me is how the bullying scenario I posted above can have absolutely nothing to do with racism.

I'm not even really looking for a debate on this topic because I don't feel that I'm arguing from a stance that disagrees with your reply. I'm just curious as to how being beat up because of your skin color, even if you happen to be white, isn't racism.

Racism isn't some generalized feeling. It has been framed as such to obscure the actual power relations that exist in a white supremacist society,e.g., yes, black people are incarcerated at a higher rate, but I was beaten up for being white, so, in the end, they can be racist too. In reality, racism is a manifestation of power, exerted at all levels of society, propping up one race over another. Being bullied, for example, will not materially effect the next generation of gfxtwin's or even people that aren't related to you, but share your skin color; that is the difference.

[gfxtwin]

is it possible for racism to exist among non-whites in the United States?

[kidinthebushes]

Originally Posted by gfxtwin

is it possible for racism to exist among non-whites in the United States?

Yes, most of my Hispanic friends don't like black people.

Next question.