[ClydeMcAllister]

My last band had to sell 30 tickets minimum for a show in a nice sized venue. If we had tickets left over we had to pay for them, whitch was pretty shitty no doubt. The only reason we agreed to do it was because we knew we could sell way more than 30.

We sold somehwere around 75-80 tickets, which was more than the other two bands on the bill combined (including the headliner). We made back all the money from our ticket sales (about 500 bucks) and gained a fair bit of fans, as well as getting a live recording of our performance and a chance to play at a sweet ass venue. Felt good man.

I don't really have much to add to the discussion. Just wanted to share a cool story brah.

[apsterling]

See, 30 seems pretty fair, but we've got a few companies here that won't pay you until you hit 20 tickets, and won't give you hardly any shows otherwise- we were offered a show at one of the larger venues in town but they required 100 ticket sales. It's kind of absurd that we can't play our music to any good numbers of kids who will show up to the bigger shows but not the small ones, which kids don't come to, unless we sell more tickets than we have fans because we can't gain a fanbase. It's sort of a lose-lose.

[JoeJealousy]

Originally Posted by patrickhowell

If you can sell that many tickets, then why are you even working with promoters? Throw your own shows in basements, garages, VFW halls, Knights Of Columbus, Mason Lodges, etc. DIY is more fun anyways.

smartest thing ive read on this thread

[The Boathouse]

This happens everywhere. This is not region specific.

This happens because kids want to play, and they'll do a lot of shitty stuff to get the chance to- sheisty presales, battles of bands with no real system, anything. Fundamentally, the reason this keeps going on is that NO ONE is hurt by it. Sure, bands make nothing like this, but the reality is, it's a show that band wouldn't have played...

If you want a big ol' crowd, no worries for presale, no worries for drawing a crowd, go fucking play an open mic night. Otherwise, bust your ass, find the good gigs, get your shit together and nailed down, and get out there. It'll take a few less glamorous gigs to get where you want to go. That's where the road parts- you decide whether you play THROUGH those less glamorous gigs, or if that's where you stall out.

[miketheauthor]

Originally Posted by splitsecond

presale shows are pretty much the entire reason why the Phoenix/Tempe music scene is complete garbage other than a few randomly successful veins of musicians (ie Dear and the Headlights). I back the original post 100%

yeah dude, I'm in a band from Mesa. The scene here is slowly turning to garbage.

[miketheauthor]

For those of you saying you have to pay for left over tickets really really sucks. That's lame. It's just retarded in my opinion when promoters expect you to sell 50, 75 + tickets to a decently small local show, or even a decently small show with a headlining national act that doesn't draw for shit. I never have to sell my left over tickets. But when you show up to the venue day of the show with 7 tickets sold that pretty much means the promoter will hate you and your band, and will never put you on another show unless you get on your knees and suck their cocks and tell them you promise to sell 50 tickets.

[Decay153]

The presale minimums they insist are a pain in the ass, but I can see why they set such high minimums.

It's so easy to say 'fuck you, you're a shitty promoter' and never cover the minimum. A lot of bands do because cocky/shitty bands make up a large part of scenes. They'll go off and start another next week and use the same promoter.

[lauren1234]

Haha, wow this happens here in Dallas all the time. There is a promoter who brings in big national bands but then makes the opening locals sell a shit ton of tickets and if they don't they get a shitty time to play, which I guess makes a little sense but it's still kind of sketchy. And I'm pretty sure some of the bands don't even get paid sometimes. It sucks.

[splitsecond]

Originally Posted by miketheauthor

yeah dude, I'm in a band from Mesa. The scene here is slowly turning to garbage.

you can thank malia productions and the lack of legit promoters for local music for that one

[alliens182]

i feel ya someguy!!!! here in AZ its the same deal. its either giant shows where local bands dont get to play because theres already 4 or 5 bands on the bill. or tiny shows with 6 or 7 bands that start at 3 in the afternoon where all the tickets are sold to parents and friends of bands that dont even want to go. its obviously impossible to build a fan base on those people. what we need is a middle ground. im willing to pay a little to get on a decent show to grow and get a fan base. and then the local bands can sell tickets with the headliner and eventually get a fan base. o and promoters dont do shittttt to actually promote!, no flyers or anything, its bullshit.

[alliens182]

Originally Posted by splitsecond

you can thank malia productions and the lack of legit promoters for local music for that one

fuck malia, thats who im talking about.

[SamKS]

Originally Posted by JoeJealousy

why would you have a band sell tickets to be on a national signed tour package show? are the "bigger" bands not drawing to cover their guarantee and your recoupement?

I book bands of your size and up. Say I book your band, do you really think you can draw well enough in my town to be able to cover my expenses? Regardless of how much I promote the show you wouldn't even come close no matter how good any band of your size is. Local bands just play too many shows to be able to just straight up promote shows and not have to sell tickets.

[JoeJealousy]

Originally Posted by SamKS

I book bands of your size and up. Say I book your band, do you really think you can draw well enough in my town to be able to cover my expenses? Regardless of how much I promote the show you wouldn't even come close no matter how good any band of your size is. Local bands just play too many shows to be able to just straight up promote shows and not have to sell tickets.

first off i would my band would not ask you for a guarantee. we always just ask for whatever can be thrown our way at the end of the show to help with gas. this has worked well for us on two full east coast tours as we have never gone in to debt or had to struggle to make ends meet to get to the next town. On another note my statement you quoted was directed toward bands that are bigger or that ask for more than they are worth. My form of thinking on the subject is if you are a promoter and have a bigger tour package coming to town and you have room for a local opener why have the local sell tickets to have the opportunity. Just give them a chance, since the bigger tour package is supposed to be the draw anyways, and if they aren't or you dont think they can pull the draw in your market you should use that as leverage to negotiate a smaller payment (I have done this with bands several times, most will not turn down a show over a lil less money). In turn the locals should accept this as nothing more than a great opportunity thrown their way by a gracious promoter that wants to help them and in turn not expect any payment.

[SamKS]

Originally Posted by JoeJealousy

first off i would my band would not ask you for a guarantee. we always just ask for whatever can be thrown our way at the end of the show to help with gas. this has worked well for us on two full east coast tours as we have never gone in to debt or had to struggle to make ends meet to get to the next town. On another note my statement you quoted was directed toward bands that are bigger or that ask for more than they are worth. My form of thinking on the subject is if you are a promoter and have a bigger tour package coming to town and you have room for a local opener why have the local sell tickets to have the opportunity. Just give them a chance, since the bigger tour package is supposed to be the draw anyways, and if they aren't or you dont think they can pull the draw in your market you should use that as leverage to negotiate a smaller payment (I have done this with bands several times, most will not turn down a show over a lil less money). In turn the locals should accept this as nothing more than a great opportunity thrown their way by a gracious promoter that wants to help them and in turn not expect any payment.

Well lets look at it this way.

The biggest bands I've booked to date are Farewell (EPITAPH) and Sparks the Rescue (FEARLESS). They both are awesome bands, IMO, and have a pretty decent following. They both draw about 30 kids roughly in the Pittsburgh area, that's not great by any means but that's not awful. I do shows for bands about this size. If I just banked on the touring bands bringing more kids than usual and me somehow being able to promote the show enough to bring about 100 kids through, the average amount of kids I need through the door to pay expenses, I would lose money on MOST of my shows. I'm not booking bands on the level of where I can book them and promote and know that there will be a ton of kids there.

There are about 3 locals in my area that draw very well on a consistent basis and that's because they hardly play shows. The tons and tons of other locals don't draw at all because they play too many shows and friends/family choose ones they want to come to.

I could put a touring band like Farewell on a show and about 4 locals within 30 minutes of the venue on a Saturday night w/ a pretty cheap door charge and still only expect about 60ish kids there. That's just the way MOST music scene's work. Promoter's have to do it, it just depends on how much they do it. I mean I'm totally against having bands sell 50 tickets to any show because that's just ridiculous. Ticket selling is becoming an industry standard and if you aren't okay with it then don't play shows where you have to sell tickets. Most of the times if you do, do that you will be missing out on most of the great shows that are happening in a town.

[JoeJealousy]

Originally Posted by SamKS

Well lets look at it this way.

The biggest bands I've booked to date are Farewell (EPITAPH) and Sparks the Rescue (FEARLESS). They both are awesome bands, IMO, and have a pretty decent following. They both draw about 30 kids roughly in the Pittsburgh area, that's not great by any means but that's not awful. I do shows for bands about this size. If I just banked on the touring bands bringing more kids than usual and me somehow being able to promote the show enough to bring about 100 kids through, the average amount of kids I need through the door to pay expenses, I would lose money on MOST of my shows. I'm not booking bands on the level of where I can book them and promote and know that there will be a ton of kids there.

There are about 3 locals in my area that draw very well on a consistent basis and that's because they hardly play shows. The tons and tons of other locals don't draw at all because they play too many shows and friends/family choose ones they want to come to.

I could put a touring band like Farewell on a show and about 4 locals within 30 minutes of the venue on a Saturday night w/ a pretty cheap door charge and still only expect about 60ish kids there. That's just the way MOST music scene's work. Promoter's have to do it, it just depends on how much they do it. I mean I'm totally against having bands sell 50 tickets to any show because that's just ridiculous. Ticket selling is becoming an industry standard and if you aren't okay with it then don't play shows where you have to sell tickets. Most of the times if you do, do that you will be missing out on most of the great shows that are happening in a town.

i completely see where you are coming from and get it. My piont is that some bands should re-evaluate what they ask for as far as payment. i dont see this becoming an industry standard by any means though as there are still great shows happening that dont require bands to sell tickets and tons of kids are still going to them.