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11:30 AM on 03/25/12 
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David87
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Delaware
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11:36 AM on 03/25/12 
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caveBEAR
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Tallahassee, FL
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If there really was blood spattered on his face and head it would indicate that he didn't chase him down and shoot him

The dispatcher told Zimmerman not to engage - Zimmerman engaged, started getting his ass beat, so he shot Martin?

That's not self-defense, and if the 'stand your ground' law means you can come up on someone - then shoot them when they react? No, no, no, no, NO.
11:38 AM on 03/25/12 
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David87
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The dispatcher told Zimmerman not to engage - Zimmerman engaged, started getting his ass beat, so he shot Martin?

That's not self-defense, and if the 'stand your ground' law means you can come up on someone - then shoot them when they react? No, no, no, no, NO.

Even if that were the case, Martin would be defended by the same stand your ground law....he felt threatened and retaliated. Does this mean if a person retaliates against someone who is threatening them, the person doing the threatening can kill you and get off free?


Basically...what a bullshit law.
11:48 AM on 03/25/12 
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SgtSmegma
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The dispatcher told Zimmerman not to engage - Zimmerman engaged, started getting his ass beat, so he shot Martin?

That's not self-defense, and if the 'stand your ground' law means you can come up on someone - then shoot them when they react? No, no, no, no, NO.

I don't think anyone is debating the merits of the law. That's what it is an it can't be changed retroactively to apply to this case. Hopefully it will serve as a catalyst for some changes to it though
11:59 AM on 03/25/12 
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TK
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Oklahoma
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The dispatcher told Zimmerman not to engage - Zimmerman engaged, started getting his ass beat, so he shot Martin?

That's not self-defense, and if the 'stand your ground' law means you can come up on someone - then shoot them when they react? No, no, no, no, NO.

I completely disagree with this if the "engagement" that Zimmerman did was not physical or threatening. If Person A says something along the lines of "What are you doing here? I'm going to call the police" and then Person B retaliates in a physical manner, then it is self-defense.

I'm not saying that Trayvon did this or that Zimmerman isn't guilty--personally, at first I believed that he was--however, I think we can all agree that judgement should not be made before all the facts of the situation are present.
12:03 PM on 03/25/12 
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caveBEAR
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I completely disagree with this if the "engagement" that Zimmerman did was not physical or threatening. If Person A says something along the lines of "What are you doing here? I'm going to call the police" and then Person B retaliates in a physical manner, then it is self-defense.

I'm not saying that Trayvon did this or that Zimmerman isn't guilty--personally, at first I believed that he was--however, I think we can all agree that judgement should not be made before all the facts of the situation are present.

I'd be inclined to agree with you here...but, the dispatcher explicitly told him not to engage, that authorities were on the way...yet Zimmerman still engaged. With a handgun on his person.

Self-defense is a very, very tough stretch for me. In my opinion, Zimmerman gave up his right to hide behind the 'stand your ground' bullshit the moment he exited his car.
12:14 PM on 03/25/12 
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TK
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Oklahoma
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I'd be inclined to agree with you here...but, the dispatcher explicitly told him not to engage, that authorities were on the way...yet Zimmerman still engaged. With a handgun on his person.

Self-defense is a very, very tough stretch for me. In my opinion, Zimmerman gave up his right to hide behind the 'stand your ground' bullshit the moment he exited his car.

I completely agree he should not have engaged him, but again, to what extent was it? Also, and this is purely curiosity, but is there any laws against disobeying a dispatcher's orders?

Self-Defense will be based entirely on intent and motive of Zimmerman leaving his vehicle in my opinion. It is a very tough matter to decide and I personally am not a fan of the "Right-to-Shoot" laws. I think what can be said is Zimmerman is completely morally responsible for the death of Trayvon, but depending on when all the facts are present, it's a tough call rather he's legally responsible if the witness' report is accurate.
12:43 PM on 03/25/12 
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caveBEAR
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I completely agree he should not have engaged him, but again, to what extent was it? Also, and this is purely curiosity, but is there any laws against disobeying a dispatcher's orders?

Self-Defense will be based entirely on intent and motive of Zimmerman leaving his vehicle in my opinion. It is a very tough matter to decide and I personally am not a fan of the "Right-to-Shoot" laws. I think what can be said is Zimmerman is completely morally responsible for the death of Trayvon, but depending on when all the facts are present, it's a tough call rather he's legally responsible if the witness' report is accurate.

I don't think there are any laws against disobeying a dispatcher's orders, I just think that when he did disobey the dispatcher, he waived his 'stand your ground' rights; he wasn't standing his ground anymore. He came onto Martin's ground. Martin, even if the witness was truthful, was the one standing his ground.


For me, what it all comes down to is - had Zimmerman stayed in his car, Martin would be alive. Zimmerman made a choice to leave his car, and now he needs to be held accountable for the choice/choices he made that night. He's alive, a child is dead - and that child is dead by his hand.
01:31 PM on 03/25/12 
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Love As Arson
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The Motherland
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Even if Trayvon were on top of him, it would not change the basic facts of the case: He racially profiled a teenager, assumed he was on drugs or preparing to commit a crime, then followed and murdered him. It is incredibly frustrating to see people fail to grasp that violence occurred, not because of anything Trayvon did, but because he was black and in the wrong neighborhood. This could not have happened to just anyone of any race.
01:37 PM on 03/25/12 
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Numero10
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Yeah, I mean, had Zimmerman seen me walking with my hood up and my hand in my waistband, would he have gotten out of his car, called 911 or followed me? I doubt it.
01:53 PM on 03/25/12 
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Healthy Scratch
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Even if Trayvon were on top of him, it would not change the basic facts of the case: He racially profiled a teenager, assumed he was on drugs or preparing to commit a crime, then followed and murdered him. It is incredibly frustrating to see people fail to grasp that violence occurred, not because of anything Trayvon did, but because he was black and in the wrong neighborhood. This could not have happened to just anyone of any race.

there, i helped you out a bit. you added one too many "facts" to the case.
no one here was saying zimmerman had justification to profile and follow martin, the question is whether or not you can charge him with murder.
02:00 PM on 03/25/12 
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caveBEAR
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there, i helped you out a bit. you added one too many "facts" to the case.
no one here was saying zimmerman had justification to profile and follow martin, the question is whether or not you can charge him with murder.

Bullshit. Zimmerman murdered him (he ignored orders from a dispatcher and came at Martin armed with a handgun) - the question is now whether the 'stand your ground' law will allow him to get away with it.
02:01 PM on 03/25/12 
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SincerelyMe
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Stanhope, NJ
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there, i helped you out a bit. you added one too many "facts" to the case.
no one here was saying zimmerman had justification to profile and follow martin, the question is whether or not you can charge him with murder.

You can certainly charge him with murder. A court can decide whether or not he should be convicted.
02:07 PM on 03/25/12 
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Love As Arson
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The Motherland
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there, i helped you out a bit. you added one too many "facts" to the case.
no one here was saying zimmerman had justification to profile and follow martin, the question is whether or not you can charge him with murder.
You act as though the justice system consistently operates on a strict interpretation of the law. In this case, which involves a person of color, yes, much time is going to be spent trying to argue that the law is what it is and there is no way around it. However, we know that when there is an impetus on the part of authorities to jail and prosecute people they can find a way to do so. I am not saying that the law doesn't create more difficulties, but that it is the case that structural prejudices affect how laws are applied. Furthermore, even if we put the law to the side, I firmly believe that it was murder. There is no justification for taking the life of someone that posed no threat to you, that you engaged on racist premises.
02:28 PM on 03/25/12 
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You act as though the justice system consistently operates on a strict interpretation of the law. In this case, which involves a person of color, yes, much time is going to be spent trying to argue that the law is what it is and there is no way around it. However, we know that when there is an impetus on the part of authorities to jail and prosecute people they can find a way to do so. I am not saying that the law doesn't create more difficulties, but that it is the case that structural prejudices affect how laws are applied. Furthermore, even if we put the law to the side, I firmly believe that it was murder. There is no justification for taking the life of someone that posed no threat to you, that you engaged on racist premises.
i wasn't making any statement for or against the justice system. you chastised users for ignoring the facts of the case, and then presented personal conjecture as fact. i have a lot of respect for you, and in this case i tend to agree with you, but however firmly you believe something to be murder, it doesn't necessarily make it so. did zimmerman engage him inappropriately? yes. was he motivated by race? highly likely. did he initiate the encounter? yes. did he murder someone in cold-blood? i do not know. that has not been established as a fact just yet.



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