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Hip-Hop News - Page 8
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11:36 PM on 08/18/13
slimfenix182
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If I held artist's fanbases against them, there would be quite a few bands I never listened to.
09:33 PM on 08/19/13
areyoukittenme?
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But are there really many people like this?
Yes, absolutely. I come in contact with these people on a daily basis. Public support has changed a lot, but you're being a little idealistic if you think most people, even if they believe in gay rights, don't slip up and say homophobic things without even thinking they're homophobic. It happens all the time.
And why are you lumping basically all Macklemore fans into this group that doesn't care about LGBTQIA rights and only eats up what he says?
Not saying all, just saying a lot.

Sure, there might be some, but I don't think many people are stupid enough to claim they're "advocates" because Macklemore wrote a song about it. At the same time, I think the song is fully capable of appealing to those who DO in fact care about LGBTQIA rights.
Sure, this song appeals to people who actually care--I never said it didn't. Just said that's not the majority of the audience listening to this song. And f it's not changing minds and making people care then why is it so important like a lot of people claim? And if it appeals mainly to people who are supporters, then what's the point? You're (not you) not changing opinions. You're just patting each other on the back for being decent people.

It isn't so black and white that you can say - "okay, this song is bullshit and the ones who like it, they're obviously not the real allies".
Literally haven't said that just because someone likes this song and thinks it’s good for the lgbqia community that they’re not real allies. I think you're just offended because I'm not using qualifiers like "some people," "a few people," etc, and you think I'm including you in any of this because you are presumably a Macklemore fan? If you don't think what I'm describing is who you are, then chances are I'm probably not talking about you.



Unfortunately a bunch of oblivious white kids listen to "It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back" or a Tupac track once and think they can go around shouting the n-word because they think they're 'cultured'. Doesn't take away from Public Enemy or any other artist, just shows that there's a cultural problem that is evident when we're talking about popular things. Talk to a couple fans of some obscure, socially conscious artist and you may get pretty consistent views because it's a specific audience. Macklemore is a Top 40 artist, so his 'fanbase' is a diverse crowd that does include blatant douchebags, those who are complacent supporters, and genuine activists that are both straight and non-straight.

That is very true but complacent supporters are probably the majority of the fanbase because complacent supporters are the majority in society. And this song isn't making them any less complacent because, like I said, it's inoffensive and it doesn't really challenge them.

I think the success of the track essentially removes that 'circle jerk' element, because people outside a single demographic are hearing it consistently. It is inoffensive, but I don't know if that's a bad thing. The worst homophobes will have a problem with it either way, but I don't know if someone who considers themselves 'neutral' on the issue (i don't know what it means, but I've heard that phrase used by people in regards to LGBT issues in the past) will respond to more direct criticism. That criticism has a place, but friendly appeals do too.
Honestly, I don't see very many people who are neutral on the issue changing their opinion because they heard Same Love a gazillion times on the radio. Same Love doesn't say anything new, if it didn't 'click' then with these people why would it 'click' now?

The loudest voices will not necessarily be from a minority of the overall population who are largely invisible at times. People who already have massive influence can use their influence NOW, while the LGBT voices becoming more visible over time. I know that's oversimplification, but I feel a goal along those lines is less naive than assuming people who have no influence right now are suddenly going to dominate the discussion.
That is actually a very, very valid point. It is somewhat naive but past human rights movements have proved that marginalized groups can dominate the discussion without having an advocate pave the way for them, and it typically incites the most widespread change when that happens.


It certainly is important in hip-hop, but I think we've seen enough of a split between mainstream hip-hop and more niche acts over the years that both can be appreciated for their potential influence in different 'scenes'.
But I mean, do you really think artists like Kanye, Jay, Kendrick, Drake, J. Cole, etc are paying attention to Macklemore? Despite being a hip-hop artist, I think Macklemore is popular in the mainstream but not necessarily the mainstream of hip-hop.


We agree on the ultimate goal clearly, but I feel like there's a bit of a difference in approach that goes beyond language. Correct me if I misrepresent your view, but I focus more on the fact that a person can use their privilege to do good, while you seem more focused on the fact that it's still that privilege that drives their ability to have that voice.
Obviously there's a ton of overlap, but I still can't really see why "Same Love" (or Macklemore in general) deserves much criticism (beyond musically, of course.)
I actually somewhat agree with the “using your privilege for good." I just don’t think Macklemore did it right and this is because of how he scapegoats hip-hop and comes off like he's talking down to POC. Like, I don't think that's what he meant to do, but that's what he did. That is my main criticism with the song, but we've been mostly talking about the point kayla brought up which I agree with but think is slightly less important. But in general, I believe that privilege is a very important aspect to maintaining the power structure because as long as there's still privilege based on gender, race, sexual orientation, then there's still going to be inequality. So yes, you are absolutely right. Our methods are different.
10:33 PM on 08/19/13
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Yes, absolutely. I come in contact with these people on a daily basis. Public support has changed a lot, but you're being a little idealistic if you think most people, even if they believe in gay rights, don't slip up and say homophobic things without even thinking they're homophobic. It happens all the time.
Not saying all, just saying a lot.

Sure, this song appeals to people who actually care--I never said it didn't. Just said that's not the majority of the audience listening to this song. And f it's not changing minds and making people care then why is it so important like a lot of people claim? And if it appeals mainly to people who are supporters, then what's the point? You're (not you) not changing opinions. You're just patting each other on the back for being decent people.

Literally haven't said that just because someone likes this song and thinks it’s good for the lgbqia community that they’re not real allies. I think you're just offended because I'm not using qualifiers like "some people," "a few people," etc, and you think I'm including you in any of this because you are presumably a Macklemore fan? If you don't think what I'm describing is who you are, then chances are I'm probably not talking about you.





That is very true but complacent supporters are probably the majority of the fanbase because complacent supporters are the majority in society. And this song isn't making them any less complacent because, like I said, it's inoffensive and it doesn't really challenge them.


Honestly, I don't see very many people who are neutral on the issue changing their opinion because they heard Same Love a gazillion times on the radio. Same Love doesn't say anything new, if it didn't 'click' then with these people why would it 'click' now?

That is actually a very, very valid point. It is somewhat naive but past human rights movements have proved that marginalized groups can dominate the discussion without having an advocate pave the way for them, and it typically incites the most widespread change when that happens.


But I mean, do you really think artists like Kanye, Jay, Kendrick, Drake, J. Cole, etc are paying attention to Macklemore? Despite being a hip-hop artist, I think Macklemore is popular in the mainstream but not necessarily the mainstream of hip-hop.


I actually somewhat agree with the “using your privilege for good." I just don’t think Macklemore did it right and this is because of how he scapegoats hip-hop and comes off like he's talking down to POC. Like, I don't think that's what he meant to do, but that's what he did. That is my main criticism with the song, but we've been mostly talking about the point kayla brought up which I agree with but think is slightly less important. But in general, I believe that privilege is a very important aspect to maintaining the power structure because as long as there's still privilege based on gender, race, sexual orientation, then there's still going to be inequality. So yes, you are absolutely right. Our methods are different.
As I said in another post, I'm certainly not a fan of Macklemore, but I appreciate the message he's trying to get across in the song.
10:42 PM on 08/19/13
areyoukittenme?
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As I said in another post, I'm certainly not a fan of Macklemore, but I appreciate the message he's trying to get across in the song.

Fair enough. I just don't think it's the right message being done by the right person (and I personally think that's important). It doesn't mean that I think everyone who appreciates it are phonies, just a lot that I have come in contact with so far. And like I said if you're not a phony then I'm not talking about you. There are tons of people who actually care about the movement who like this song--and that's fine--but there is another bunch of people who care about this movement and don't like this song. It's really comes down to different approaches, and I personally don't think this approach is all that good.
10:46 PM on 08/19/13
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Fair enough. I just don't think it's the right message being done by the right person (and I personally think that's important). It doesn't mean that I think everyone who appreciates it are phonies, just a lot that I have come in contact with so far. And like I said if you're not a phony then I'm not talking about you. There are tons of people who actually care about the movement who like this song--and that's fine--but there is another bunch of people who care about this movement and don't like this song. It's really comes down to different approaches, and I personally don't think this approach is all that good.
I get that, thanks for clarifying. I just view the song differently - obviously it's not close to the progress that needs to be made, but I also wouldn't see it as a negative in any way.
10:51 PM on 08/19/13
OctoberOrigins
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That is very true but complacent supporters are probably the majority of the fanbase because complacent supporters are the majority in society. And this song isn't making them any less complacent because, like I said, it's inoffensive and it doesn't really challenge them.
I'd disagree that complacent supporters are the majority in society, but they probably are for this fanbase so I concede that point.

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Honestly, I don't see very many people who are neutral on the issue changing their opinion because they heard Same Love a gazillion times on the radio. Same Love doesn't say anything new, if it didn't 'click' then with these people why would it 'click' now?
Disagree here. Most who are neutral are such simply because they mostly don't care or don't give it thought. This definitely wouldn't make them become strong advocates, but it's been established that public figures often are cited as reasons someone's views shift. I mean, that shift probably goes (to use terms we've been using) from 'neutral' to 'complacent supporter', but it's not as if that doesn't have some effect. Unfortunately, some issues (mostly regarding marriage) have had to be decided at the ballot box, and having extra votes leaning (even slightly) our way is valuable.

Yeah, it doesn't say anything new, but it's popularity means a lot of people are still hearing it. That's a big reason why I've been saying this is merely a minor step in the right direction, hardly anything revolutionary.

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That is actually a very, very valid point. It is somewhat naive but past human rights movements have proved that marginalized groups can dominate the discussion without having an advocate pave the way for them, and it typically incites the most widespread change when that happens.
With social media, entertainment, etc. becoming an increasingly influential part of our culture, it will be interesting to see what roles people play on major issues. I don't think we can directly compare the other 'faces' of movements to the current cultural landscape. Ultimately, I very strongly feel it'll be most important to have LGBT people dominate the discussion, but I think we already would have that if it were that easy at this point.

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But I mean, do you really think artists like Kanye, Jay, Kendrick, Drake, J. Cole, etc are paying attention to Macklemore? Despite being a hip-hop artist, I think Macklemore is popular in the mainstream but not necessarily the mainstream of hip-hop.
No, I don't think they are. But portions of their fanbases are, particularly younger people who listen to mainstream music, including hip-hop. Macklemore probably isn't influential to those who are established faces, or those who are trying to find a place in less pop-friendly circles, but artists like Drake never came from those scenes either.

I very much think his possible influence is more towards pop than hip-hop, which is why I've mostly avoided the discussions in here about hip-hop specifically.

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I actually somewhat agree with the “using your privilege for good." I just don’t think Macklemore did it right and this is because of how he scapegoats hip-hop and comes off like he's talking down to POC. Like, I don't think that's what he meant to do, but that's what he did. That is my main criticism with the song, but we've been mostly talking about the point kayla brought up which I agree with but think is slightly less important.

I didn't really expand on my original thought enough here. I think we both agree with the idea of using that privilege but that the same privilege is still an issue, I was more meaning what the basis of our arguments seem to be more focused on.

Eh, I don't really feel like he's talking down to POC, at least beyond the basis of privilege which would include some of the same arguments as this discussion. But I'm definitely not the person that should be making any argument based on that. I'm sure others here have far more insight on issues surrounding race than I do, especially in a setting like this where we're having a somewhat-intellectual debate and don't have obviously strong ideological differences.

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But in general, I believe that privilege is a very important aspect to maintaining the power structure because as long as there's still privilege based on gender, race, sexual orientation, then there's still going to be inequality. So yes, you are absolutely right. Our methods are different.

I also very much agree that as long as there is still privilege, there will be inequality. It just, for me, goes back to what I said earlier that I feel this doesn't ingrain that privelege into the culture any more than it already is. It doesn't do a lot to address it, admittedly, but I don't think it makes it worse.
03:18 AM on 08/22/13
Jaynicgurl
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I just think the entire argument is ridiculous. I'm queer too, and I understand the desire and even the need for queer artists to be center-stage and well-known, but guess what? Mainstream music doesn't work like that, it doesn't operate on a diversity quota. Macklemore got popular totally by fluke, and if he hadn't, then there might not be a single mainstream hip-hop musician right now who is being as vocal in support of LGBT rights and LGBT lives as he is. It's not the perfect situation, and queer artists should of course keep fighting to take the spotlight themselves, but I think every argument against the fact that Macklemore has the spotlight right now over a queer artist is just dumb. He lucked into a position of fame and popularity, he lucked into a huge platform (yes, maybe part of that luck is his privilege itself), and he's fostering an environment where formerly closed-minded people may be more willing to give an emerging queer artist a chance.

That's always been one of the biggest places for straight allies in the LGBT movement, to be a voice of privilege that convinces others of privilege that LGBT folks should be welcomed and accepted, thereby paving the way for increased acceptance among straight people by the very fact that they don't belong to the LGBT community themselves but they're still speaking out for equality. Anyone complaining about Macklemore does not understand the importance of straight allies, plain and simple.
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