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03:19 AM on 11/05/13
#1
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yeah I'm excited for this thread
05:30 AM on 11/05/13
#2
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35%? seriously..there has to be some kind of bias..there is no way this album is anywhere close to that bad..It is by far NOT his best but..35% the technicality alone should allow for a better score barring any lyrical content at all..AP seems to always be extremely negatively biased towards em..for reasons I really cannot understand..This is not his best effort..but the album is defiantly enjoyable and full of talent..and fuck the same people calling for "old eminem" are offended when he says ******? SERIOUSLY?

Hes not calling for old Eminem.
09:55 AM on 11/05/13
#3
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If someone could quote my posts in the General thread about how this album/praise for this album is a cancer and harming the genre in here, thatd be cool. Figure it could stir up discussion in here. Im on mobile and cant. Thx/ill do it when Im home if not
10:31 AM on 11/05/13
#4
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there's a lot of stupid in that quote, bro.
Explain
10:39 AM on 11/05/13
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Haha i actually meant my analysis of the Spin article but whatever Ill find it when Im home
11:09 AM on 11/05/13
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You stress the "problem" that is Eminem too much. I don't disagree that he's terrible now, because he is and has been for over a decade now. He is a reason why kids complain how hip-hop now sucks, but he isn't nearly the whole or even main reason. This issue goes deeper than Eminem (and Biggie and Tupac for that matter), it's one that goes: 90s hip-hop (aka the Golden Age of Hip-Hop) vs. modern hip-hop as you briefly mentioned. But in my experience, most non-casual listeners of hip-hop do not exalt Eminem, and definitely do not think of him as the best rapper who ever lived. They do still exalt the (other) 90s giants in hip-hop and greatly prefer them to modern hip-hop, thus make comments such as "hip-hop used to be so good, what happened!?" And while Eminem isn't a complete 90s hip-hop artist (he bridges the gap in many ways), he is a relic of older times. This along with him being...well...Eminem, he somehow is held at a higher pedestal for no good reason (in short, you were right about that).

However, Eminem had monumental consequences for hip-hop (and r&b oriented artists by extension). He very much helped popularized the genre to the point of being "normal". Artists like Drake, Usher, or what have you would not have the same audience that they do and would never have the popularity that they did w/o Eminem. You seem to be ignoring that. Drake and similar ilk owe much to Em in many regards.

And I really don't agree with your Zep/Floyd comment though I'm not a huge fan of either.

So you pretty much agreed on all points with me except you think Eminem also helped Drake, which I can agree with? What?
01:37 PM on 11/05/13
#7
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Anyway, back to what I was saying before. There's a couple of themes here that's important. First off, karma. This album is filled with references to karma biting him in the ass for all the shit he's said since he came on to the scene. Funny enough, he follows up that self awareness with contradictions, which makes it all that more fascinating. Back when MMLP was released, he said homophobic and sexist things as a social commentary to prove that critics, women, and gay people were only attacking him because he was white. And he was right in a way. Because there were plenty of african american rappers that were saying the same things, but nobody paid attention. Here, he's almost committed to digging himself further into potential consequences. Karma will bite him in the ass, but he'll face it when it comes for him. The opener, Bad Guy might as well be a love letter to this way of thinking. And I might not want to live like that, but it makes for great music.

This is so absolutely convoluted. He used homophobic and sexist things as social commentary? Because he was white? And now he's continuing to do it?

Quote:
One of the other themes, is him not being able to grow up. He mentions it plenty of times, that he's probably a immature hypocrite for trying to do the same things he's been doing since 99. But he basically says "fuck it", because I don't think he cares what I or you think. He's willing to take his hypocrisy to levels beyond of what we've seen from other musical artists, because he accepts his immaturity.

He's immature and because he doesn't care, he can't be criticized?

Quote:
As for you nitpicking lines to prove your general points... Yea, he dropped some duds, but he dropped a hell of a lot more great lines than anything. And most of them are both witty and self aware at the same time.

"I'm frustrated cause there ain't no more N'Sync, now I'm all out of wack
I'm all out of Backstreet Boys to call out and attack"
Evil Twin is great because it defies expectations on that level. He uses the pop artists that he attacks as a way to attack himself.


This is just opinion, there were like 3 lines that stuck out to me on this record as being clever and I don't even remember them. That line you referenced is wack.

Quote:
The entire song Brainless is filled with gems. This one in particular:

"It's okay to be scared straight, they said I provoke queers
Til emotions evoke tears, my whole career's a stroke of sheer genius
Smoke and mirrors, tactical, practical jokes, yeah
You motherfuckin' insert insult here"

That's one of my least favorite rhymes on the album. They said I provoke queers is such a terrible statement to make, especially when he doesn't back it up by having any sort of commentary on it aside from yeah I definitely did and still do insult people!


The rest of your post was opinion that I was bored with
01:41 PM on 11/05/13
#8
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Here are my posts from the General Thread. It seems as if there are more supporters in here, so I'll post it in the hopes that it stirs discussion.


How is this getting decent reviews? Normally I don't ask a question as dumb as that, but seriously?

This is a godawful review.

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Stakes is low: There's plenty of "bitch" and "***" on here, but Rick Ross, Kanye West, and Odd Future have long since replaced Em as lightning rods for conversations about misogyny and homophobia. Is anyone listening? He even does an uncensored do-over on the "take seven kids from Columbine and put 'em all in a line" bit that was bleeped out of even the dirtiest versions of the original Marshall Mathers LP, adding the telling, "See if I get away with it now that I ain't as big as I was."

Like, seriously? That's you're only comment about those words being used? That other people "replaced" him?


This whole section:

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But we get rhymes. So many rhymes. More rhymes than some rappers manage in a whole career. Eminem is rap's agoraphobic Howard Hughes, finally out joy-riding in the Spruce Goose; rap's Chris Carrabba, doing a little more bloodletting these days; rap's Ozzy Osbourne, having a self-aware larf at the old days when he used to scare people; rap's Woody Allen, out for another round of artful self-negation. And it was only 13 years ago when he was just rap's Great White Asshole. He's already been the lead actor. He deserves to play the stuntman for a while
is exactly what is wrong with the people praising this album. The dude has rhymes. What does that even mean? Why should we be impressed that Eminem can rhyme words? That's ridiculous at this point in the game. The dude built his career on being a decent rapper and "rhyming", why are we allowing that to be the best part of an album? If that's the case and this album becomes lauded because he has "rhymes", we're going to set hip hop back like 10 years from the last time Eminem was at the top. The genre has evolved so much since then that lauding this because of his rhymes could potentially be devastating for the genre. Cmon sons.
___________________________________ ___________________________________ _____

The reason I'm getting super critical of this album is because people seem to be focusing on the fact that Eminem rhymes well. As I said, I think that's going to be incredibly detrimental to the genre. I don't want a crop of artists out there only rhyming well and getting praised for it. That's like Yelawolf and it's a poison to legitimate and experimental rap out there. If the only successful (critically and commercially) rappers out there are ones who can only rhyme well, then we're losing out on all of the Danny Browns and even Kanyes of the world.

Obviously not meaning that Kanye and DB aren't technically proficient rhymers, just that people are now using Eminem as a watermark for "rhyming" and being like "oh only Kendrick is in his class". That's bullshit. Kendrick far surpasses Eminem on every other aspect of his career. As does Kanye and as does DB. Thinking that a rapper is one of the best ever just because he raps fast and uses a lot of words on beat is a cancer to the genre and should have been exterminated the moment The College Dropout came out. As I've said before, it's the same thing as people judging a band based solely on how well they play their instruments.
___________________________________ ___________________________________ _____

I know Tate likes the comparison between Punk and Hip Hop, and that's how I see my issue with this mindset of Eminem being great because he can rhyme well. It'd be like if The Clash or The Ramones or The Replacements or any of those punk bands realized that they can still be critically lauded, sell millions of copies and go down as legends if they work exclusively on playing their instruments to the best technical ability they could, rather than doing something creative and different that pushes the boundaries of what "rock" music could be. It's frustrating to see "respected" critics, I guess... (I don't know how well respected Spin is anymore) fall into the same weird feelings about hip hop that my 7th and 8th grade students do.
___________________________________ ___________________________________ ___

A lot of people are saying we're being overcritical or why should we care and I really hate that reasoning. Eminem is the reason we have kids out there talking about how there's no good hip hop anymore. Eminem is the reason rappers like Drake and Danny Brown and the like are being looked down upon because they're different. Eminem post 2002 has been steadily keeping a large portion of hip hop's fanbase from moving forward. He's one of the major links between golden era Pac and BIG rap and now. People talk about how hip hop used to be so good with Pac and BIG and oh Eminem is still making great music.

No, no he's not. He's rhyming well and that's it. And for some reason people can't seem to move past the Eminem era and onto the more experimental era of the genre. It's the same people stuck with saying that Zeppelin and Floyd were the pinnacle of rock music. It's awful and it's one of the worst parts of the genre, in my opinion.

___________________________________ ___________________________________ _____

As far as the slurs argument:

We can safely state that Eminem's "I'm using gay to mean dumb because that's how I used it growing up" defense is really weak considering how often he uses other specifically homosexual references in his lyrics in order to make them seem like the lesser.

With that being refuted, we have the "persona" defense to fall back on. I'm wondering, if Eminem is relying heavily on this persona defense, what conversation would people be having if this persona used the n-word in a derogatory fashion? Would people be leaping to defend him? Obviously the n-word isn't slang for stupid or dumb, but we already said he makes other specific references to homosexual acts, equating them to the lesser. What if he used the n-word and made reference to blacks or any other minority group in ways that put them in the position of the lesser while under the guise of the persona? What conversation would we be having?
01:58 PM on 11/05/13
#9
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yeah I know it's my opinion, was just letting you know it was a worthwhile read
it wasn't really
02:37 PM on 11/05/13
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So a white dude on a non hiphop website that not apart of the hiphop culture is more qualified to judge and review a hiphop album than XXL or Hiphop DX. That like asking The Source or Vibe magazine to review and rate a Pearl Jam, Avenge Sevenfold or Taylor Swift album. I find that statement laughable. Why would one rely on a RocK magazines like Spin or Rolling Stone or a website like pitchfork and absolutepunk to accurately critique a rap album. Alot These folks couldnt tell the difference between Juice Crew and MC Juice or AZ and O.C..
but I can tell you this album is garbage!
02:57 PM on 11/05/13
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Im still getting used to this format so IDK if this is actually your post but whoever made it Im sorry...this hiphop and one of the criteria that I expect rappers scratch that MC's to have is the ability to rhyme well... That fact you seem to hold Kendrick Lamar, Kanye West, Drake and Danny Brown in such high regard is to me what is setting the genre of rap and hiphop back.. I never thought I see the day where an MC who can rap is ass off would be something considered a detriment to the art form of hiphop where you know it actually based on on how good you can rap.
I'm a little confused as to what you're trying to say, but Kendrick, Kanye, Drake and Danny are held in such high regard not only because they can "rhyme well" (the entire basis for some of the positive reviews for Eminem) but also because they are doing something different and creative with the genre. I hold them in a high regard because not only is their music (and their rhymes) aesthetically pleasing, they write entertaining lyrics and do different types of things with the genre rather than trying to reclaim faded glory from 1997
02:58 PM on 11/05/13
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I honestly stopped caring about what Hip Hop DX or XL says about hip hop albums for the mostpart in like 2006
03:08 PM on 11/05/13
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I'm not even a fan (and for the most part hip does nothing for me), I've never enjoyed any of his records from start to finish, but blaming an artist for people's judgment of the whole genre is ridiculous. There's a thing called brain and unless population x lives under a totalitarian regime listeners are the ones to blame.

Moreover, the fact his music barely changed over the years isn't something bad per se and the so called hip-hop evolution isn't necessarily for better or for worse. Just like music isn't heading anywhere, it simply changes over the years. Sure, changes are good and welcome in the sense that they allow us to experience new aesthetics...

Following that line of thinking, I assume more traditional artists such as the Foo Fighters or Pearl Jam are dangerous and should be criticized because they are stopping some kind of progression.

I’m pretty sure Eminem releasing similar music over the years, doesn’t stop consistently great musicians like Kanye West or Arcade Fire from getting universal acclaim and mainstream success with their more avant-garde stuff.
You're missing my entire point, it seems. Eminem is only one cog in the venomous machine of the downside of hip hop at the moment. If you were in touch with the genre you'd know the people I'm speaking of, the ones who are constantly trashing any form of innovation within the genre. These people make up a large, large majority of the population. An artist like Kanye is a one and a million showing of a "different" dude making it as big as he did.

The hip hop evolution is certainly for the better, why would a genre expanding or branching out be a bad thing?
03:12 PM on 11/05/13
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What Drake is doing is nothing new...LL Cool J did it years ago but better... Fabolous and to lesser Extent Nelly has done the same thing. Kanye West is dismissed the moment it was revealed he didnt even write Jesus Walks and mostly because no one who a truly a fan of the art of rapping would consider Kanye a dope or lyrical MC. Danny Brown is not even considered a top 10 MC out of detroit and has one of the worst annoying voices in hiphop combine B Real and Cee Lo and you have Danny Brown voice with half the lyrical skill or good music to back it up.
My dude what are you talking about? You're exactly the person my diatribe was based on. Drake and LL Cool J are not at all similar in terms of tone of music or style or just about anything. Fabolous and Nelly? I'm honestly baffled at how you view Drake.

Kanye is dismissed because he had a ghostwriter on one of his songs? No one who is truly a fan of the art of rapping? Who gives a shit about the art of rapping anymore? It's 2013. You're the dude that shits on a punk band for not knowing how to play their instruments.

Danny Brown's XXX is one of the most versatile, impressive, dark, experimental hip hop releases in a long, long time. You call his voice annoying, I call it unique. It appeals to me.
03:14 PM on 11/05/13
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MY point still stands..you follow you are not a part of it. It more than just music...hiphop encompasses how one dresses, talks, and acts. Even if you given the album a perfect 10 and hailed as the years best I would still take it with a grain of salt.
I missed this. No need to continue the conversation with a viewpoint like this

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