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10:31 PM on 07/16/09 
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joe has a cat
joe misses his cat
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Perth, Australia
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Still blows my mind that America doesn't have uni-healthcare yet.
12:15 AM on 07/17/09 
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asmolitor
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Wisconsin
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I might be wrong but when the average American has a negative savings rate and the US government continuously increase spending. Maybe we should rethink our spending based on assumed future income, especially when we talk upwards of 500 billion in savings.

show me how the average american could have a negative savings rate. and if you point to depleted 401k plans as the cause, show me how that takes direct consumer intervention to impact. and if you point to 2005 Q3, one quarter does not make a negative trend.


I understand that there will always be some sort of "credit" spending based on assumed income. I'm not arguing black and white no assumed spending any time. My problem is every government project when it comes to money is grossly inaccurate. I would challenge anyone to find one significant government program,project, war, etc...... that was at or less than the initial cost projections? If you can't find one you should ask yourself why would this be any different.

of course there's inaccuracies, government projections don't include a crystal ball. costs change regardless of the project, and regardless of the party who controls the project.

if a program is underfunded more than the projected allocation for the program, the government isn't doing enough. if a project is underfunded, it could be taken a step further. if a war is underfunded, you risk lives.

i would challenge you to justify the completion/end of a program as soon as the last penny from the initial allocation is spent, with no regards to the implications.

and honestly, with a george w bush picture in your signature, i find it incredibly naive that you deride health care spending in the face of massive budget deficits with a low personal savings rate - when... uh oh...

Quote:
The Medicare Prescription Drug, Improvement, and Modernization Act (Pub.L. 108-173, 117 Stat. 2066, also called Medicare Modernization Act or MMA) is a law of the United States which was enacted in 2003.[1] It produced the largest overhaul of Medicare in the public health program's 38-year history.

The MMA was signed by President George W. Bush on December 8, 2003, after passing in Congress by a close margin.

One month later, the ten-year cost estimate was boosted to $534 billion, up more than $100 billion over the figure presented by the Bush administration during Congressional debate. The inaccurate figure helped secure support from fiscally conservative Republicans who had promised to vote against the bill if it cost more than $400 billion. It was reported that an administration official, Thomas A. Scully, had concealed the higher estimate and threatened to fire Medicare Chief Actuary Richard Foster if he revealed it.[2] By early 2005, the White House Budget had increased the 10-year estimate to $1.2 trillion.[3]

Former US Comptroller General David M. Walker has called this "...probably the most fiscally irresponsible piece of legislation since the 1960s... because we promise way more than we can afford to keep." [4]

hmm, funny how we forget. if there's any chance in hell you can refute the current plan while supporting the medicare reform act, i think we'd all love to hear it.
05:07 AM on 07/17/09 
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saysmydoctor
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Albany NY
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as opposed to the alternative being offered.




Colorfull!
A graph which is in itself misleading because the healthcare proposal is already this complicated so to say the Democrats are proposing a complicated plan is false.
05:21 AM on 07/17/09 
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saysmydoctor
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It's good to see you and I completely agree. The fact it's being rammed through is that big elephant in the room that not enough people are asking why about. The other elephant being that if we are looking for health reform why is there absolutely zero talk about tort reform.
Because it isn't a huge a drain on our economy as health care?
good for them.

...All I care about is that there's someone with enough common sense to slow this disaster down before the public and the politicans have a chance to understand what is being voted on, and how much its really going to cost. It's inevitable that 'health-care reform' is gonna pass, but it doesn't need to be 'rahmed' though like the last two bills.
Error: it's not inevitable. We've known about the health care system issues for 25 years and no one has done anything except let the issue get more complex.
07:04 AM on 07/17/09 
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Justin_stacy
Go AWAY! Batin'!
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Error: it's not inevitable. We've known about the health care system issues for 25 years and no one has done anything except let the issue get more complex.

actually I'd call that first part bordering on false. Democrats have the votes in both houses and a somewhat popular president's support. Its gonna pass, the question is over the form, the price, and whose going to be forced to pay for it.

The only way this stalls is if moderate Democrats hold it up long enough for Republican to capture enough seats in '10 to block the vote....and that is so unlikely that its not even worth viewing as a possiblity.
07:10 AM on 07/17/09 
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Justin_stacy
Go AWAY! Batin'!
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A graph which is in itself misleading because the healthcare proposal is already this complicated so to say the Democrats are proposing a [ ] complicated plan is false.

The word you're missing is 'more'. And you'd be a fool to believe it isn't true. Just as you'd be a fool to believe they're cost estimates or the way they propose to pay for it. Washington never works out as promised.
10:59 AM on 07/17/09 
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asmolitor
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actually I'd call that first part bordering on false. Democrats have the votes in both houses and a somewhat popular president's support. Its gonna pass, the question is over the form, the price, and whose going to be forced to pay for it.

The only way this stalls is if moderate Democrats hold it up long enough for Republican to capture enough seats in '10 to block the vote....and that is so unlikely that its not even worth viewing as a possiblity.

i'd have to agree with sean on this, based solely on the clinton plan. regardless of the plan itself, democrats had similar congressional majorities in the senate (D-56% voting share in '93, D-60% in '09) and in the house (D-59.3% in '93, D-59% in '09). of course, there's much more cohesion with the white house and the democratic congress - but don't count out the blue dogs.
12:43 PM on 07/17/09 
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Justin_stacy
Go AWAY! Batin'!
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i'd have to agree with sean on this, based solely on the clinton plan. regardless of the plan itself, democrats had similar congressional majorities in the senate (D-56% voting share in '93, D-60% in '09) and in the house (D-59.3% in '93, D-59% in '09). of course, there's much more cohesion with the white house and the democratic congress - but don't count out the blue dogs.

I'd like to hope, but I still say its a forgone conclusion that 'something,' whatever it may be, is going to get passed. From what I've read Blue Dog Democrats are against portions of the cost, not the concept.

The Republican Revolution put a hamper on Hillarycare. There's no chance in hell of that in '10. Obama and Liberal Democrats have time on their side.
02:52 PM on 07/17/09 
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saysmydoctor
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actually I'd call that first part bordering on false. Democrats have the votes in both houses and a somewhat popular president's support. Its gonna pass, the question is over the form, the price, and whose going to be forced to pay for it.

The only way this stalls is if moderate Democrats hold it up long enough for Republican to capture enough seats in '10 to block the vote....and that is so unlikely that its not even worth viewing as a possiblity.
Adam said what I wanted to say. What are there, 52 Blue Dogs? And the outspoken ones have said that they have the votes to nix it the bill and I wouldn't put it past them. A lot of them are freshmen representatives who are in for a tough reelection.
The word you're missing is 'more'. And you'd be a fool to believe it isn't true. Just as you'd be a fool to believe they're cost estimates or the way they propose to pay for it. Washington never works out as promised.
Undoubtedly. I don't agree with health care reform in its current form either because reform is pretty much synonymous with 'tweak.' I am much more prone to support health care restructuring or health care rebuilding over simple reforms. I don't think this will streamline the process or simplify it (though I think Boehner's graph is a gross overcomplication).
03:26 PM on 07/17/09 
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peder458
Shh! I'm Listening to Reason
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Minnesota
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Still blows my mind that America doesn't have uni-healthcare yet.

i am completely ignorant on the matter, and am too lazy to look it up so i will just ask you! what is your system like, and do you think it works well?
03:57 PM on 07/17/09 
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saysmydoctor
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Albany NY
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04:00 PM on 07/17/09 
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Praetor
as we melt, let's make no noise.
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wut
04:05 PM on 07/17/09 
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saysmydoctor
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_237750.html
04:07 PM on 07/17/09 
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Praetor
as we melt, let's make no noise.
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lol of course fucking Joe Lieberman is on this list.
04:09 PM on 07/17/09 
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loveisdead
Go Peyton Go
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Lieberman is one of my least favorite human beings.



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