AbsolutePunk.net
   Username
Password
 
Comments: Page 6
Displaying posts 75 - 90 of 90
01:37 PM on 04/16/14
theDrivingSnow
I wouldn't know.
Offline
User Info.
theDrivingSnow's Avatar
Well, alot of Pitchfork's intended audience lives in Brooklyn or wants to live in Brooklyn (but already lives or wants to live in Portland)...
The irony of this whole situation, particularly with regard to this comment, is that Mobb Deep is performing here in Portland on Sunday at a very hipster-friendly and fashionable bar/lounge space.
01:40 PM on 04/16/14
Jason Tate
Online
User Info.
Jason Tate's Avatar
The irony of this whole situation, particularly with regard to this comment, is that Mobb Deep is performing here in Portland on Sunday at a very hipster-friendly and fashionable bar/lounge space.
It bums me out that the Doug Fir is now considered "very hipster-friendly" ...
03:43 PM on 04/16/14
ttmessick
Regular Member
Offline
User Info.
ttmessick's Avatar
Your analogy concerning me would not work. The reviewer is white. You cannot be racist towards white people, only prejudiced, which I'm genuinely surprised you don't subscribe to that definition given your area of study, where it's the common definition and what I've always been taught in anthropology and sociology classes.

"Racism involves the subordination of people of color by white people. While individual persons of color may well discriminate against a white person or another person of color because of their race, this does not qualify as racism according to our definition because that person of color cannot depend upon all the institutions of society to enforce or extend his or her personal dislike. Nor can he or she call upon the force of history to reflect and enforce that prejudice. . . . History provides us with a long record of white people holding and using power and privilege over people of color to subordinate them, not the reverse."
(Paula Rothenberg. Defining Racism and Sexism)


And when I said it wouldn't affect the reviewer, I mean in any way that's really meaningful. The reviewer is not a victim of racism. He is not being oppressed. He is not affected in that type of way. Maybe he'll think "That Prodigy sure is a jerk!" but nothing Prodigy said is racist or will affect the reviewer in a way that racism towards poc does. He will not have to carry that around with him. He will be okay. A white guy feeling alienated by a musician is not really the same type of "affected" that I'm talking about.


Are personal theoretical semantics really that important to all of this? I'm well aware of US history and that its been white people helping other white people. I could site a million places that give broader, more universal definitions of the term "racism" and you know that because the definition you gave isn't a universally accepted one. If you feel more comfortable with that separation of terms because of the different histories and types of abuses, we can easily adjust with Rothenberg and call it prejudice. And you're probably right, this likely won't affect the reviewer much, other than in the ways I mentioned before, because he is white and there is a lack of history behind discrimination against white people that is present with other groups and seems to reinforce the offensive nature of such acts; however, according to Prodigy, neither of you are in a position to understand how this situation will affect that reviewer because of differences in blood lines so we shouldn't even discuss it. I just feel like its a conversation we have to have to get anywhere. Obviously, someone could be completely distant from an actual experience but if they have the empathy and the desire to try to understand, progress can be made. By learning more, you can always get closer to an idea than you would've been and that IS progress. I just hate seeing something like this happen, where these types of conversations or observations are shot down immediately because "you'll never be me, you don't know what its like." It feels counter-productive to everything. Not only that but the way it was handled; be respectful and pick your battles. Misguided hate allows ignorant people to ignore their wrongs and continue to exist. Have a conversation with someone; explain your point and treat them like a person rather than threatening someone who isn't responsible for your pain, because you probably wouldn't want to be treated that way. Entire racial groups don't share the same feelings and ideas even if you could make convincing generalizations in the past. A white music critic who listens to rap in 2014 seems like a pretty far-removed scapegoat. Prodigy's remarks seemed to come from a place of hatred and ignorance; if we're not allowed to talk or think about it, wrongs don't get fixed and we learn nothing. It doesn't feel like he'd like to see things improve.
04:23 PM on 04/16/14
kianacarly
I'm living it, leaving it to change
Offline
User Info.
kianacarly's Avatar
Are personal theoretical semantics really that important to all of this? I'm well aware of US history and that its been white people helping other white people. I could site a million places that give broader, more universal definitions of the term "racism" and you know that because the definition you gave isn't a universally accepted one. If you feel more comfortable with that separation of terms because of the different histories and types of abuses, we can easily adjust with Rothenberg and call it prejudice. And you're probably right, this likely won't affect the reviewer much, other than in the ways I mentioned before, because he is white and there is a lack of history behind discrimination against white people that is present with other groups and seems to reinforce the offensive nature of such acts; however, according to Prodigy, neither of you are in a position to understand how this situation will affect that reviewer because of differences in blood lines so we shouldn't even discuss it. I just feel like its a conversation we have to have to get anywhere. Obviously, someone could be completely distant from an actual experience but if they have the empathy and the desire to try to understand, progress can be made. By learning more, you can always get closer to an idea than you would've been and that IS progress. I just hate seeing something like this happen, where these types of conversations or observations are shot down immediately because "you'll never be me, you don't know what its like." It feels counter-productive to everything. Not only that but the way it was handled; be respectful and pick your battles. Misguided hate allows ignorant people to ignore their wrongs and continue to exist. Have a conversation with someone; explain your point and treat them like a person rather than threatening someone who isn't responsible for your pain, because you probably wouldn't want to be treated that way. Entire racial groups don't share the same feelings and ideas even if you could make convincing generalizations in the past. A white music critic who listens to rap in 2014 seems like a pretty far-removed scapegoat. Prodigy's remarks seemed to come from a place of hatred and ignorance; if we're not allowed to talk or think about it, wrongs don't get fixed and we learn nothing. It doesn't feel like he'd like to see things improve.
I think it's an important distinction to make (in regards to racist vs prejudice). I don't disagree with a lot of what you're saying, mostly because I guess I interpreted prodigy in a different way. I didn't take it as nobody should ever be able to experience art from other cultures, rather it's a fine line when one is dissecting the experiences that inform the art. I guess the rest of your paragraph I disagree with because I think people have a right to resent their oppressors and while it may not better the world and make us all harmonious, I believe they have a right to those feelings. If prodigy resents white people (idk if he does or not) then eh, I don't care. That's probably gonna have to be one of those agree to disagree things tho
04:48 PM on 04/16/14
Love As Arson
Resident Marxist
Offline
User Info.
Love As Arson's Avatar
Most white reviewers lack the cultural references being touched upon within black works of art and attack it from a frame of reference so far removed from what they understand. Art, if anything, is a cultural artifact that conveys, when done well, the reality from which it arose. As such, it becomes an epistemological issue, insofar as the grounding of black/white reality is much different. We live in a segregated society and, in fact, our centers of education, which one might assume is where one might learn to be a reviewer, are more segregated now. That hinders one's ability to interpret and understand the artifacts produced by the Other. Understanding theory is one thing, understanding the music, the era that gave birth to it, the history of the people that produced it is quite another. One might listen to the hip-hop of the early nineties and say, "Well, it's so violent and ignorant, and is all about selling drugs". It is granted new context, however, when one realizes the nihilism that set in in the black community in the Reagan era, the broadening of the underground drug economy, the violence inherent in that, etc. That new context, if taken in, broadens the value and the extent to which a reviewer can interpret what is being conveyed. That's not to say every review must be a history lesson, but that, if we want to be serious about analyzing a work of art, we must be thorough. I'm not calling for white people to not review works of arts produced by people of color, but I'm asking them to educate themselves, otherwise their incompetence is incredibly evident.
04:52 PM on 04/16/14
Love As Arson
Resident Marxist
Offline
User Info.
Love As Arson's Avatar
Also, it isn't racist to say white people don't understand, because they don't. They'll never how their middle-class lifestyles are built on a history of genocide and war. They feel as though they're being made to apologize for their ancestors, when, in reality, we're simply saying that their access to certain sectors of knowledge isn't accessible except by means of interacting with people of color and educating themselves.
05:33 PM on 04/16/14
Love As Arson
Resident Marxist
Offline
User Info.
Love As Arson's Avatar
Are personal theoretical semantics really that important to all of this? I'm well aware of US history and that its been white people helping other white people. I could site a million places that give broader, more universal definitions of the term "racism" and you know that because the definition you gave isn't a universally accepted one. If you feel more comfortable with that separation of terms because of the different histories and types of abuses, we can easily adjust with Rothenberg and call it prejudice. And you're probably right, this likely won't affect the reviewer much, other than in the ways I mentioned before, because he is white and there is a lack of history behind discrimination against white people that is present with other groups and seems to reinforce the offensive nature of such acts; however, according to Prodigy, neither of you are in a position to understand how this situation will affect that reviewer because of differences in blood lines so we shouldn't even discuss it. I just feel like its a conversation we have to have to get anywhere. Obviously, someone could be completely distant from an actual experience but if they have the empathy and the desire to try to understand, progress can be made. By learning more, you can always get closer to an idea than you would've been and that IS progress. I just hate seeing something like this happen, where these types of conversations or observations are shot down immediately because "you'll never be me, you don't know what its like." It feels counter-productive to everything. Not only that but the way it was handled; be respectful and pick your battles. Misguided hate allows ignorant people to ignore their wrongs and continue to exist. Have a conversation with someone; explain your point and treat them like a person rather than threatening someone who isn't responsible for your pain, because you probably wouldn't want to be treated that way. Entire racial groups don't share the same feelings and ideas even if you could make convincing generalizations in the past. A white music critic who listens to rap in 2014 seems like a pretty far-removed scapegoat. Prodigy's remarks seemed to come from a place of hatred and ignorance; if we're not allowed to talk or think about it, wrongs don't get fixed and we learn nothing. It doesn't feel like he'd like to see things improve.
Have conversations with your people. We've been living the problem, what with people not believing us or claiming that we're exaggerating Once there is an acknowledgement with your community, then there can be a conversation between races..
06:00 PM on 04/16/14
ttmessick
Regular Member
Offline
User Info.
ttmessick's Avatar
I honestly find most of these last three posts to be pretty fair. There are a couple statements I find debatable but nothing too extreme in regard to overall message.

I would just add - recognize the oppressors as individuals. There are A LOT of people who don't support shitty people or their ideas just because they share the same race. In the case of whites, unfortunately, a lot of really old and shitty people have held positions of power for a long time and have protected those positions for other shitty old white people. That has to change and it can. It'll never be perfect, but when people don't oppress you, individually, give them a chance to see your side. Give and take opportunities to understand things better and we might get somewhere. Allowing that communication to happen is something I feel gets interrupted by making threats and/or being hateful like Prodigy did here. There's no discussion to come from aggressive, misplaced tweets. I have absolutely no problem with Love As Arson's view that this reviewer needed more historical context/education. That's exactly the way it should have been explained by Prodigy if he shared that sentiment.
06:15 PM on 04/16/14
fna4
Registered Member
Offline
User Info.
No Avatar Selected
I bet he has no problem with middle class white guys buying his records and attending his concerts though...
06:34 PM on 04/16/14
ttmessick
Regular Member
Offline
User Info.
ttmessick's Avatar
Have conversations with your people. We've been living the problem, what with people not believing us or claiming that we're exaggerating Once there is an acknowledgement with your community, then there can be a conversation between races..

I agree with you. More people need to acknowledge the wrongdoing within the white community. It can't be acceptable or shrugged off as a joke when white people think they're only around other white people. I do talk to a well represented group of people from different backgrounds and races about these topics nearly every day. And inside the white community its not as hard as some people might think to speak up when someone is ignorant or wrong; I think white people feel like outcasts for acknowledging these types of things are wrong without realizing that the oppressor is the real outcast. The older people are generally a lost cause and seem to reinforce those attitudes and we're talking about people's parents and grandparents, so there is a lot of pressure at times. We have to let people know that they're wrong and to not allow those patterns to continue to pass down through generations of ignorance. Each new generation is a new chance to improve. It might be hard to see, but some are trying to work towards something better. I live in Kansas and encounter as much bigotry as you'd probably assume. Its a fight but its not one-sided, there are a large number of people who agree on this, even here. My generation is undoubtedly a step up. More and more people can acknowledge wrongdoing and make changes. I wish it could happen all at once. I don't think it has to be one way or the other, though, you have just as much, if not more, power to speak to white people on the same subjects as I do speaking to them from within, even though I'm sure it doesn't always feel like it. Both ways can be battles at times but both ways are effective in different ways, with different people imo.
05:28 AM on 04/17/14
suicidalmoose
Lindsay let me kiss your forehead!
Offline
User Info.
suicidalmoose's Avatar
Music related reviews, as any review, are nothing but some guy's opinion, nothing more than that. I don't know what's all the fuss about. If he's mad because a middle class white guy wrote his opinion about one of his albums, than that's his problem.
07:59 AM on 04/17/14
Numero10
No al calcio moderno
Offline
User Info.
Numero10's Avatar
wow lotta white privilege in here
03:36 PM on 04/17/14
Love As Arson
Resident Marxist
Offline
User Info.
Love As Arson's Avatar
I agree with you. More people need to acknowledge the wrongdoing within the white community. It can't be acceptable or shrugged off as a joke when white people think they're only around other white people. I do talk to a well represented group of people from different backgrounds and races about these topics nearly every day. And inside the white community its not as hard as some people might think to speak up when someone is ignorant or wrong; I think white people feel like outcasts for acknowledging these types of things are wrong without realizing that the oppressor is the real outcast. The older people are generally a lost cause and seem to reinforce those attitudes and we're talking about people's parents and grandparents, so there is a lot of pressure at times. We have to let people know that they're wrong and to not allow those patterns to continue to pass down through generations of ignorance. Each new generation is a new chance to improve. It might be hard to see, but some are trying to work towards something better. I live in Kansas and encounter as much bigotry as you'd probably assume. Its a fight but its not one-sided, there are a large number of people who agree on this, even here. My generation is undoubtedly a step up. More and more people can acknowledge wrongdoing and make changes. I wish it could happen all at once. I don't think it has to be one way or the other, though, you have just as much, if not more, power to speak to white people on the same subjects as I do speaking to them from within, even though I'm sure it doesn't always feel like it. Both ways can be battles at times but both ways are effective in different ways, with different people imo.
I don't think it is my job to educate white people. I deal with enough racism on a daily basis that I do not have the energy to actually deal with ignorance. The difference between this generation and the last is, the current generation feels it isn't racist even when they engage in in innumerable microaggressions.
03:53 AM on 04/18/14
The_Effort
Regular Member
Offline
User Info.
The_Effort's Avatar
Subbing to remember to read through this thread later. Interesting topic.
09:03 PM on 04/18/14
Your Milkshake
...I drink it
Online
User Info.
Your Milkshake's Avatar
in the running for most idiotic thread 2014 wgaf

NEWS, MUSIC & MORE
Search News
Release Dates
Exclusives
Best New Music
Articles
CONNECT
Submit News
Forums
Contests
Mobile Version
AP.net Logos
HIDDEN TREASURES
AbsolutePunk Podcast
Free Music
Sports Forum
Technology Forum
Recommendations
INFORMATION
Advertising
Contact Us
Copyright Policy
Terms of Service
Privacy Policy
FOLLOW
Twitter | Facebook | RSS
PropertyOfZack
UnderTheGun
Purevolume
Chorus.fm | @jason_tate